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The Idiocy Behind the '9/11 Truth' Movement

By Matt Taibbi, RollingStone.com. Posted September 26, 2006.


Why the "9/11 Truth" movement makes the Left Behind series read like Shakespeare.

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A few weeks ago I wrote a column on the anniversary of 9/11 that offhandedly dismissed 9/11 conspiracy theorists as "clinically insane." I expected a little bit of heat in response, but nothing could have prepared me for the deluge of fuck-you mail that I actually got. Apparently every third person in the United States thinks George Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks.

" You're just another MSM-whore left gatekeeper paid off by corporate America," said one writer. "What you do isn't journalism at all, you dick," said another. "You're the one who's clinically insane," barked a third, before educating me on the supposed anomalies of physics involved with the collapse of WTC-7.

I have two basic gripes with the 9/11 Truth movement. The first is that it gives supporters of Bush an excuse to dismiss critics of this administration. I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change dickwads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes. In fact, if there were any conspiracy here, I'd be far more inclined to believe that this whole movement was cooked up by Karl Rove as a kind of mass cyber-provocation, along the lines of Gordon Liddy hiring hippie peace protesters to piss in the lobbies of hotels where campaign reporters were staying.

Secondly, it's bad enough that people in this country think Tim Lahaye is a prophet and Sean Hannity is an objective newsman. But if large numbers of people in this country can swallow 9/11 conspiracy theory without puking, all hope is lost. Our best hope is that the Japanese take pity on us and allow us to serve as industrial slaves in their future empire, farming sushi rice and assembling robot toys.

I don't have the space here to address every single reason why 9/11 conspiracy theory is so shamefully stupid, so I'll have to be content with just one point: 9/11 Truth is the lowest form of conspiracy theory, because it doesn't offer an affirmative theory of the crime.

Forget for a minute all those internet tales about inexplicable skyscraper fires, strange holes in the ground at Shanksville, and mysterious flight manifestoes. What is the theory of the crime, according to the 9/11 Truth movement?

Strikingly, there is no obvious answer to that question, since for all the many articles about "Able Danger" and the witnesses who heard explosions at Ground Zero, there is not -- at least not that I could find -- a single document anywhere that lays out a single, concrete theory of what happened, who ordered what and when they ordered it, and why. There obviously is such a theory, but it has to be pieced together by implication, by paying attention to the various assertions of 9/11 lore (the towers were mined, the Pentagon was really hit by a cruise missile, etc.) and then assembling them later on into one single story. But the funny thing is, when you put together all of those disparate theories, you get the dumbest story since Roman Polanski's Pirates.

The specifics vary, but the basic gist of what They Say Happened goes something like this:

A group of power-hungry neocons, led by Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Bush and others and organizationally represented by groups like the Project for a New American Century, seeks to bring about a "Pearl-Harbor-like event" that would accelerate a rightist revolution, laying the political foundation for invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Your basic Reichstag fire scenario, logical enough so far. Except in this story, the Reichstag fire is an immensely complicated media hoax; the conspirators plot to topple the World Trade Center and pin a series of hijackings on a group of Sunni extremists with alleged ties to al-Qaeda. How do they topple the Trade Center? Well, they make use of NORAD's expertise in flying remote-control aircraft and actually fly two such remote control aircraft into the Towers (in another version of the story, they conspire with al-Qaeda terrorists to actually hijack the planes), then pass the planes off as commercial jetliners in the media. But it isn't the plane crashes that topple the buildings, but bombs planted in the Towers that do the trick.

For good measure -- apparently to lend credence to the hijacking story -- they then fake another hijacking/crash in the Pentagon, where there actually is no plane crash at all but instead a hole created by a cruise missile attack, fired by a mysterious "white jet" that after the attack circles the White House for some time, inspiring the attention of Secret Service agents who point at it curiously from the ground (apparently these White House Secret Service agents were not in on the plot, although FBI agents on scene at Ground Zero and in Shanksville and elsewhere were).

Lastly, again apparently to lend weight to the whole hijacking cover story, they burn a big hole in the ground in Pennsylvania and claim that a jet went down there, crashed by a bunch of brave fictional civilians who fictionally storm the fictional plane cabin. The real-life wife of one of the fictional heroes, Lisa Beamer, then writes a convincingly self-serving paean/memoir to her dead husband, again lending tremendous verisimilitude to the hijacking story. These guys are good!

Just imagine how this planning session between Bush, Rummy and Cheney must have gone:

BUSH: So, what's the plan again?

CHENEY: Well, we need to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. So what we've decided to do is crash a whole bunch of remote-controlled planes into Wall Street and the Pentagon, say they're real hijacked commercial planes, and blame it on the towelheads; then we'll just blow up the buildings ourselves to make sure they actually fall down.

RUMSFELD: Right! And we'll make sure that some of the hijackers are agents of Saddam Hussein! That way we'll have no problem getting the public to buy the invasion.

CHENEY: No, Don, we won't.

RUMSFELD: We won't?

CHENEY: No, that's too obvious. We'll make the hijackers al-Qaeda and then just imply a connection to Iraq.

RUMSFELD: But if we're just making up the whole thing, why not just put Saddam's fingerprints on the attack?

CHENEY: (sighing) It just has to be this way, Don. Ups the ante, as it were. This way, we're not insulated if things go wrong in Iraq. Gives us incentive to get the invasion right the first time around.

BUSH: I'm a total idiot who can barely read, so I'll buy that. But I've got a question. Why do we need to crash planes into the Towers at all? Since everyone knows terrorists already tried to blow up that building complex from the ground up once, why don't we just blow it up like we plan to anyway, and blame the bombs on the terrorists?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, you don't understand. It's much better to sneak into the buildings ourselves in the days before the attacks, plant the bombs, and then make it look like it was exploding planes that brought the buildings down. That way, we involve more people in the plot, stand a much greater chance of being exposed, and needlessly complicate everything!

CHENEY: Of course, just toppling the Twin Towers will never be enough. No one would give us the war mandate we need if we just blow up the Towers. Clearly, we also need to shoot a missile at a small corner of the Pentagon to create a mightily underpublicized additional symbol of international terrorism -- and then, obviously, we need to fake a plane crash in the middle of fucking nowhere somewhere in rural Pennsylvania.

RUMSFELD: Yeah, it goes without saying that the level of public outrage will not be sufficient without that crash in the middle of fucking nowhere.

CHENEY: And the Pentagon crash -- we'll have to do it in broad daylight and say it was a plane, even though it'll really be a cruise missile.

BUSH: Wait, why do we have to use a missile?

CHENEY: Because it's much easier to shoot a missile and say it was a plane. It's not easy to steer a real passenger plane into the Pentagon. Planes are hard to come by.

BUSH: But aren't we using two planes for the Twin Towers?

CHENEY: Mr. President, you're missing the point. With the Pentagon, we use a missile, and say it was a plane.

BUSH: Right, but I'm saying, why don't we just use a plane and say it was a plane? We'll be doing that with the Twin Towers, right?

CHENEY: Right, but in this case, we use a missile. (Throws hands up in frustration) Don, can you help me out here?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, in Washington, we use a missile because it's sneakier that way. Using an actual plane would be too obvious, even though we'll be doing just that in New York.

BUSH: Oh, okay.

RUMSFELD: The other good thing about saying that it was a passenger jet is that that way, we have to invent a few hundred fictional victims and account for a nonexistent missing crew and plane. It's always better when you leave more cover story to invent, more legwork to do, and more possible holes to investigate. Doubt, legwork, and possible exposure -- you can't pull off any good conspiracy without them.

BUSH: You guys are brilliant! Because if there's one thing about Americans -- they won't let a president go to war without a damn good reason. How could we ever get the media, the corporate world, and our military to endorse an invasion of a secular Iraqi state unless we faked an attack against New York at the hands of a bunch of Saudi religious radicals? Why, they'd never buy it. Look at how hard it was to get us into Vietnam, Iraq the last time, Kosovo?

CHENEY: Like pulling teeth!

RUMSFELD: Well, I'm sold on the idea. Let's call the Joint Chiefs, the FAA, the New York and Washington DC fire departments, Rudy Giuliani, all three networks, the families of a thousand fictional airline victims, MI-5, the FBI, FEMA, the NYPD, Larry Eagleburger, Osama bin Laden, Noam Chomsky and the fifty thousand other people we'll need to pull this off. There isn't a moment to lose!

BUSH: Don't forget to call all of those Wall Street hotshots who donated $100 million to our last campaign. They'll be thrilled to know that we'll be targeting them for execution as part of our thousand-tentacled modern-day bonehead Reichstag scheme! After all, if we're going to make martyrs -- why not make them out of our campaign paymasters? Shit, didn't the Merrill Lynch guys say they needed a refurbishing in their New York offices?

RUMSFELD: Oh, they'll get a refurbishing, all right. Just in time for the "Big Wedding"!

ALL THREE: (cackling) Mwah-hah-hah!

You get the idea. None of this stuff makes any sense at all. If you just need an excuse to assume authoritarian powers, why fake a plane crash in Shanksville? What the hell does that accomplish? If you're using bombs, why fake a hijacking, why use remote-control planes? If the entire government apparatus is in on the scam, then why bother going to all this murderous trouble at all -- only to go to war a year later with a country no one even bothered to falsely blame for the attacks? You won't see any of this explored in 9/11 Truth lore, because the "conspiracy" they're describing is impossible everywhere outside a Zucker brothers movie -- unbelievably stupid in its conception, pointlessly baroque and excessive in its particulars, but flawless in its execution, with no concrete evidence left behind and tens of thousands keeping their roles a secret forever.

We are to imagine that not one of Bush's zillions of murderous confederates would slip and leave real incriminating evidence anywhere along the way, forcing us to deduce this massive crime via things like the shaking of a documentary filmmaker's tripod before the Towers' collapse (aha, see that shaking -- it must have been a bomb planted by the president and his ten thousand allies!). Richard Nixon was a hundred times smarter than Bush, and he couldn't prevent leaks and cries of anguished pseudo-conscience from sprouting among a dozen intimately involved conspirators -- but under the 9/11 conspiracy theory, even the lowest FBI agent used to seal off the crime scene never squeaks. It's absurd.

I challenge a 9/11 Truth leader like Loose Change writer Dylan Avery to come up with a detailed, complete summary of the alleged plot -- not the bits and pieces, but the whole story, put together -- that would not make any fifth grader anywhere burst out in convulsive laughter. And without that, all the rest of it is bosh and bunkum, on the order of the "sonar evidence" proving the existence of the Loch Ness monster. If you can't put all of these alleged scientific impossibilities together into a story that makes sense, then all you're doing is jerking off -- and it's not like no one's ever done that on the internet before.

9/11 Truth followers will doubtless argue that I am ignoring the mountains of scientific evidence proving that the Towers could not have collapsed as a result of the plane crashes alone, that a plane could not have caused the damage at the Pentagon, that the hole in Shanksville was not caused by a jet.

To which I'll have to answer: you're right. I am ignoring it. You idiots. Even if it were not the rank steaming bullshit my few scientist friends assure me that it is, none of that stuff would prove anything. All of the 9/11 science claims belong to the "All men are Socrates" school of logic, so named after the famous Woody Allen syllogism: Socrates was a man; All men are mortal; Therefore, all men are Socrates.

That's how 9/11 Truth lore works. The towers couldn't have fallen the way they did; there are no big plane parts in the Pentagon crash photos; therefore, all men are Socrates. That's basically the case against George W. Bush. A bunch of people heard explosions, an anchorman says the falling Towers remind him of a controlled demolition, therefore... George Bush committed the crime of the ages? Am I missing something?

In the real world you have to have positive proof of involvement to have a believable conspiracy theory. Take an excellent analogous conspiracy story, the 1999 Russian apartment bombings scandal, in which a series of residential buildings were blown up, with the explosions blamed on Muslim terrorists by Vladimir Putin, who quickly assumed emergency powers and started a war in response. Very similar, superficially, to 9/11 Truth lore.

A lot of very smart people in Russia think that the FSB, the successor agency to the KGB, might have been involved in those attacks. Why? Not because some pinhead on the internet turned a disaster photo upside down 50 times until he found Waldo lurking in its lower left-hand corner. No, people believe that one because numerous witnesses and a local police department found a real bomb and verifiably traced said bomb to a car belonging to the FSB, which subsequently admitted to having been there and having planted the device (they claimed it was an "exercise"). Subsequently, numerous operatives confessed to having been in on the plot. Moreover, numerous journalists who exposed this story were beaten and harassed, with a few even killed, including an acquaintance of mine named Yuri Shekochikhin who died in spy-novel fashion, felled by a mysterious poison. And yet, even with all that, I'm not sure the apartment bombings theory isn't bullshit. But it's at least worth listening to, especially since political mass murders have been as regular as soccer season in Russia since the days of the Doctor's Plot.

Compare that with 9/11 Truth lore, where the only positive evidence linking George Bush to the alleged bombings is the fact that Bush's dipshit brother Marvin once sat on the board of a security company that for a time handled security at the Towers. And that's it -- the rest of it is anecdotal evidence of people hearing explosions (in a collapsing skyscraper full of jet fuel? Shocking!), photos of the suspiciously pristine Pentagon lawn, etc. As for the intrepid 9/11 Truthers exposing this deadly conspiracy, when even one of them suffers so much as a scratch to his mom's minivan for his brave investigative efforts, I want to hear about it, because it'll be the first time.

Whenever anyone chooses to dismiss 9/11 conspiracy theorists, accusations fly; the internet screams that you've aided and abetted George Bush. I disagree. To me, the 9/11 Truth movement is, itself, a classic example of the pathology of George Bush's America. Bush has presided over a country that has become hopelessly divided into insoluble, paranoid tribes, one of which happens to be Bush's own government. All of these tribes have things in common; they're insular movements that construct their own reality by cherry-picking the evidence they like from the vast information marketplace, violently disbelieve in the humanity of those outside their ranks, and lavishly praise their own movement mediocrities as great thinkers and achievers. There are as many Thomas Paines in the 9/11 Truth movement as there are Isaac Newtons among the Intelligent Design crowd.

There's not a whole lot of difference, psychologically, between Sean Hannity's followers believing liberals to be the same as terrorists, and 9/11 Truthers believing even a the lowest soldier or rank-and-file FAA or NORAD official to be a cold-blooded mass murderer. In both cases you have to be far gone enough into your private world of silly tribal bullshit that the concept of "your fellow citizen" has ceased to have any meaning whatsoever. It may be that America has become too big and complicated for most people to deal with being part of. People are longing for a smaller, stupider reality. Some, like Bush, sell a prepackaged version. Others just make theirs up out of thin air. God help us.

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Matt Taibbi is a writer for Rolling Stone.

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View:
Conspiracy in a nutshell...
Posted by: dbatterman on Sep 26, 2006 1:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is needlessly complicated. If anything, this administration has proven itself to be horriffic at anything involving even the slightest smidge of planning, much less orchestrating what purports to be the biggest hoax ever to be pulled over the eyes of the whole world.
There will always be the conspiracy folks, and they have a right to think whatever they like. But hopefully most rational people can see beyond the claptrap and deal with what's really important, which is getting these yahoos out of office, asap.

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wrongheaded
Posted by: firsty on Sep 26, 2006 1:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it's terribly unfortunate that whatever email you received caused you to resort to such childish namecalling.

that said, you put too much of a burden on the truth movement. it's unfair to stack the "conspiracy" story against the "official" story and then poke holes in the "conspiracy" story because it's relatively incomplete.

the point you miss is this: it's not dylan avery's job to investigate what actually happened, when and how. what the truth movement has done, very simply, is poke more than enough holes in the official story to demand an honest, objective and thorough investigation (unlike the 9/11 commission), with power to subpeona and access to classified information.

it's inherent that outsiders such as those involved in the truth movement are going to have incomplete stories. but what theyve managed to present, with a good deal of information from experts and eye-witnesses, but without any govt cooperation whatsoever, should be enough to expose the fact that we're simply not being told the whole story.

but lets be fair. 10 experts about heat and jet fuel who dispute the govt's story are, to me, more believable than a hundred who agree with it, once you consider how easy it is to agree with the story coming from the govt, who collects taxes, distributes grants, can affect careers, etc.

again, it's simply not fair to hold "loose change" (for example) to the same standards as the 9/11 commission. ONE mistake in the 9/11 commission report is MUCH WORSE than ten mistakes in loose change. the 9/11 commission report should have left NOTHING up in the air, so to speak.

and it left a lot more than one thing up in the air.

instead of attacking the messenger, you should be demanding real information from official sources. if the media had been doing what it was supposed to be doing for the past 2 decades, perhaps we wouldnt be in the middle of an administration that is able to manipulate information to this degree in the first place.

cheers.

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» RE: wrongheaded Posted by: Jesse
Fianlly a Level Headed Thinker in this so-called Progressive Forum
Posted by: bullwhip7 on Sep 26, 2006 2:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get ready for another avalanche of threats and hate mail.

Thanks for clearing up the idiotic "conspiracy theories" out there.
Of course, you realize this will just energize these fools a little more, you must be on the "company's" payroll...

Yeah.

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» Quick, duck, here comes common sense! Posted by: Conservasaurus
I'm less concerned...
Posted by: justiceputnam on Sep 26, 2006 2:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... about what happened before 9/11; though "benign neglect" can be levelled at any administration that has catastrophe fall on their heads; what I'm concerned with is the crass political advantage that Bush's necons grasped with their "Pearl Harbor" moment.

That's the "conspiracy" that concerns me. Not the "hollywood blockbuster" conspiracy.

I'm concerned with the morally repugnant advantage these "folks" sought, while using a national tragedy as their "chariot".

It's not what they did before that convicts them; it's what they did after 9/11.

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» RE: I'm less concerned... Posted by: mazel
Can you handle the truth?
Posted by: frbiwaftt on Sep 26, 2006 3:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is the theory of the crime, according to the 9/11 Truth movement?

Just read either of these books: Crossing the Rubicon and The New Pearl Harbour

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"Idiocy" etc.
Posted by: dchabot on Sep 26, 2006 4:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change dickwads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes."
- What an intelligent comment!

"ALL THREE: (cackling) Mwah-hah-hah!
You get the idea. None of this stuff makes any sense at all."
- I do not agree. Remove sarcasms and idiocies from your story, and it could be near real.

"but under the 9/11 conspiracy theory, even the lowest FBI agent used to seal off the crime scene never squeaks. It's absurd."
- Lowest agents were not involved.

"I challenge a 9/11 Truth leader like Loose Change writer Dylan Avery to come up with a detailed, complete summary of the alleged plot."
- That would require a serious investigation, I mean, not like the official 9/11 commission. But who will do that?
BTW, do you believe the official commission's story? What do YOU believe happened on that day? Please tell us, you seem to be so smart.

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» RE: "Idiocy" etc. Posted by: Smog
» RE: "Idiocy" etc. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: "Idiocy" etc. Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: "Idiocy" etc. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: "Idiocy" etc. Posted by: Paragon
» RE: "Idiocy" etc. Posted by: Paragon
» RE: "Idiocy" etc. cont Posted by: Smog
Double Shame on Alternet
Posted by: perico on Sep 26, 2006 6:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe this Matt guy is some kind of well known writer to get this published, but his writing skills are not apparent in this piece or the prior one to which he refers. I'd say a rigorous academic course in logic would be a good prescription for improving his arguments. This article borders on nonsensical emotional drivel.

Shame on Alternet for publishing his first 911 piece. It was really, really bad. This one is far worse. There have been some good articles posted here, but these Matt articles demonstrate extremely poor editorial judgement.

Fool me twice, shame on me.

Goodbye Alternet. I'm won't be back.

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You ain't looked hard...
Posted by: bassman on Sep 26, 2006 8:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Try reading "Crossing the Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil" by Mike Ruppert. It might answer some of your questions.

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In Fact...
Posted by: bassman on Sep 26, 2006 8:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How hard would it be to pull off illegal actions if you controlled all three branches of government?

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» RE: In Fact... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» What was Clinton's motive? Posted by: ignition
» Motive, motive, motive!!!! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: In Fact... Posted by: bassman
» Good Point Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Good Point Posted by: Conservasaurus
THANKF*CKINGGOD
Posted by: Eat Politicians on Sep 26, 2006 9:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matt, you continue to impress me with your ability to be right on mark. Half the game of keeping us powerless is keeping us seperated, and buying into whatever bullshit to the point that you are sending death threats to someone that doesn't agree with you in mind-numbingly moronic.

CHRIST. You think that neo-cons are heartless murders. Fine. I agree.

You think they went out of their way to make the most hyper-complex Tonkin-Gulf incident in history? Fine. I don't agree, but whatever.

You say that you are going to kill someone for not agreeing with your mindless, pointless fucking theories ...what?! How would that make you any better than the heartless murders?

You keep doing what your doing Matt. Hopefully our generation is starting to wake up a little bit. But I worry it's too little too late.

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HIgh caliber dialogue
Posted by: fifthworld on Sep 26, 2006 9:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's a lot of love in this room. It's beautiful. It touches the hearts of the great American people.

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» RE: HIgh caliber dialogue Posted by: gazooks
What Matt misses entirely
Posted by: fifthworld on Sep 26, 2006 9:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is that this is not a partisan debate. I talk regularly with "Liberals", "conservatives", "libertarians", and our discussion of the inside job is regardless of who they are politically. Those who are highly skeptical and realizing they've been had, like you, are the mulitiplicity of the political landscape.

Matt, you need to figure THAT into your misguided analysis/rant. I'm temted to call you a dickwad, but I'll be polite here.

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» Matt was right on Posted by: Conservasaurus
So I Wonder...
Posted by: freeda'all on Sep 26, 2006 9:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...what Matt has to say to the fact that Cheney & Bush both stonewalled testifying before the 911 Commission before agreeing only if they could do without swearing in (to tell the truth) and that Cheney insisted on being with Bush when Bush testified?

There are lots and lots of holes in the 'official' 911 report and not one that anyone 'debunking' the 911 conspiracy theories cares to adequately explain.

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» RE: So I Wonder... Posted by: Smog
» RE: So I Wonder... Posted by: famouspipeliner
» Oh yeah... Posted by: famouspipeliner
» Hello faulty logic! Posted by: ezilla
» RE: So I Wonder... Posted by: willymack
Worst Article Ever !
Posted by: ShoShenQ on Sep 26, 2006 10:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This dickwad has to resort to name calling, and basically says "forget the mountains of evidence, I find it stupid so it cant be". Anyway thanks for this much needed advertisement, we will make good use of it.

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» RE: Worst Article Ever ! Posted by: Smog
» RE: Worst Article Ever ! Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: Worst Article Ever ! Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Worst Article Ever ! Posted by: slowerpez
Alternative Theory - The New Standard for Keeping Quiet?!
Posted by: kenadrian on Sep 26, 2006 10:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author wrongly proclaims that 9/11 conspiracy theory is especially shameful because it offers no alternative theory.

The TRUTH is we don't know what happened but we want to. The TRUTH is that the 9/11 Commission Report is incomplete at best. The TRUTH is that many of us don't have or need a "conspiracy theory" to know when we're being b*llsh*tted by the official story. The TRUTH is that the official 9/11 story defies physics, logic, historical context, and most obviously plays into the hands of people in power that we can no longer afford to trust.

So, if the author really believes that it's immoral to ask for answers - real and complete ones - he's certainly got me confused as to who the "crazies" are. I'll believe the official story when all of the detailed contradictory evidence makes sense. Until then, I won't trust a gov't that allowed the Bin Laden family access to airspace on the very day one of their own is purported to have taken out a few thousand American lives. It's about public accountability, not conspiracy.

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» Smogman Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: Smogman Posted by: Smog
» Projecting eh? Posted by: famouspipeliner
» Right on the mark! Posted by: Conservasaurus
One more thing Dickwad.
Posted by: ShoShenQ on Sep 26, 2006 10:32 PM   
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And oh btw, when the US tried to invade cuba, the secret services devised a plan that involved fake commercial planes hijacked by fake terrorists/true CIA agents and even planned to use an Apollo accident (if it did happen on its own) to blame it on the cubans.

But hey why am I trying to explain this to an ignorant dickwad ? He will call this as being illogical, in fact I think that you believe yourself to be Socrate, able to understand anything thru your logic, and fuck the facts and History.

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» RE: One more thing Dickwad. Posted by: talkville
Baaahhhh
Posted by: OWN-the-NWO on Sep 26, 2006 10:57 PM   
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A perfect hit
Posted by: talkville on Sep 27, 2006 2:21 AM   
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If one were to carefully study the etymology of the word 'idiot' it would correspond very neatly with this 'movement' - where it's moving or how is hard to discern. Hence, the word 'idiocy' in the title is astonishingly appropriate. Tragically, the energy it is dissipating in its 'movement' would be very invigorating if it were placed on less conspiratorial issues, like working and surviving for example. True rightists and conservatives couldn't be happier in encouraging these methods of thinking.

An event actually transpired on 9/11/2001, and it demolished the exceptionalist complacency amongst us in the USA. Similar events have been transpiring elsewhere for quite a long time. This particular event is being used, and used cynically, to implement and institutionalize structures and methods of ruling which should concern everyone- perhaps 'draconian' would be a good approximation to their implications. This concerns us in the USA as well as the entire world. While there's bickering about causes, effects are rapidly becoming actual. Language, too, is historical and it's important too consider the word 'idiot' in that context.

Our rulers, who are flesh and blood humans, are very smart but not that efficient. Yet.

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Thank you, Matt
Posted by: trashdog on Sep 27, 2006 2:32 AM   
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If it wasn't for you and Josh Holland, I think I would've stopped reading Alternet a long time ago, or at the very least, it would be simply to remind myself that lefties can be just as unhinged as the wingnuts.

Bless you for a much needed dose of common sense.

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What a depressing article...
Posted by: JP2 on Sep 27, 2006 3:47 AM   
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Dear mr. Taibbi. You just wrote another very depressing article. To read such convenient stuff about 9/11 on alternet really is starting to keep me at distance of the website.

You ask Dylan Avery to come forward with all the details about the 9/11 plan? That's insane. That's even something childish to ask. Nobody can do that, obviously. The point is asking questions, not drawing a scenario without knowing the details, only to get laughed at even more. You just want Avery to make an ass of himself, admit it.

I wonder, do you ask questions? Don't you ever feel like asking questions? Like, why the 9/11 commission covered up so many details? Where is the evidence that Osama actually planned all this? Why Osama was so lucky to have NORAD standing down on 9/11, so lucky to have just months before all the NORAD response in the hands of Cheney, so lucky to escape so many times before 9/11, so lucky to have top-secret drills in the same days that got people confused?

What about the anthrax scare? How come Osama was so lucky that right after 9/11 some secret laboratory in the US started helping him adding fear to fear? Because, let's face it: if al-qaeda has access to Anthrax, why they're not using it again and again?

How about all the witnesses that spoke about detonations in the WTC? Was everyone drunk? Why always assume that witnesses are unreliable?
And about the fact that 'too many knew'... well, okay. It's pretty incredible. But not impossible. Particularly if the military is involved. They have the right groups that don't go around talking about secret operations. Demolition teams, for example. And about all the others who benefited, like wall street guys or silverstein or such, that's not so many people to control. Assuming you picked the ones you could trust or blackmail in the first place.

I am an italian citizen, mir. Taibbi, and I can assure you that I have no anti-american feelings. Au contraire. But I am worried. Your country is threatening the entire world. I don't feel threatened by Iran or Iraq, I feel threatened by the pressure your country can put on mine, forcing the already weak italian political elite to give up my liberties in exchange of less security, and a depressing sense of impotence.

I am what in your country is called a liberal, mr. Taibbi. And I am actually surprised and disappointed to see liberals in the US in denial about 9/11.
I guess you believe too, like FOX News and CNN, that Hugo Chavez is 'a crazy man'? And is that why he went public and talked about 9/11 being an inside job?

Mr. Taibbi, you are not going to persuade anyone with statements like 'In the real world you have to have positive proof of involvement to have a believable conspiracy theory'.
No sir, you don't! If you have 'positive proof' you don't have a consipracy theory, sir, you have an investigation, a trial, and hopefully a sentence. We are way before that. We are trying to make enough noise about 9/11 in order to raise awareness and hopefully one day get to a point where finally the cover up cracks and we get some proof of it and investigations.

Until then, what you have is a gigantic amount of unanswered questions and doubts.

So tell me, what a citizen is supposed to do? That's not a rhetorical question. It's very serious. Are we supposed to stay silent only because you don't want liberals to be 'accused' of supporting an 'idiot' cause? Are we embarrassing you?
But the accuses, the embarrassment... that's nothing, mr. Taibbi.
The questions are important.

You know it mr. Taibbi. In your guts you know that something is wrong with 9/11. This struggle for the truth needs everyone's help.

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9/11 Conspiracy theorists are wrong because they lack a theory?
Posted by: ljsullivan1166@earthlink.net on Sep 27, 2006 4:34 AM   
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Intellectually indolent writers like you, Matt, spew out millions of words attacking '9/11 Conspiracy Theorists' because you don't have the integrity or the guts to spend an equal amount of time and energy honestly looking at the evidence with an open mind.


Actually, Matt, it's not too difficult. Just shut your mouth, open your mind, look thoughtfully, and listen to the physicists, engineers, demolitions experts and the seasoned, trained observers who witnessed these events up close. And then think about what you have seen and heard -- and, we hope, learned -- from these people who know vastly more on this subject than you do. Pay attention to the people who lost family members and friends on 9/11, people who have intensely painful and important questions they need to have answered -- but who never get any answers.


Your little ego trip, based on pretensions of coolness, is nowhere near as important as getting to the bottom of this mess. What the 9/11 Truth movement is doing is illustrating vividly the massive holes in the Official Story. This is far more important at this stage than coming up with a Single Unified Theory -- which would be as inappropriate right now as if Euclid had tried to do that a few thousand years ago about the Universe.


First you gather the evidence and examine it. This is something the government has not only NOT done, it has actively tried to block anyone else from doing it. And then, too early, they hand-picked their 'independent' Commission to 'investigate' the events -- without giving them access to the evidence the government is withholding. Their subsequent report, therefore, is a whitewash that upholds the Official Story -- which, by the way, is a truly ludicrous example of a half-baked Conspiracy Theory.


Why will none of them answer the questions being asked? Why do they refuse to release the evidence they are keeping under wraps? This is an administration incapable of telling the truth about ANYTHING -- and you want us to believe they are telling the truth about THIS?


Get real. And maybe you should concentrate on creative writing; leave opinion and commentary to those who think more deeply.

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Building 7
Posted by: Flavio on Sep 27, 2006 4:39 AM   
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The whole discussion, and I wish it would be a discussion, because name calling is the refuge of someone without facts or cogent thought about them (has Chomsky ever resorted to character attack?), begins and ends with the fact that in the afternoon of that day, a 54 or so storey building suddenly fell into its footptint. Period. There has not been anyone atttacking the people who want to know what really happened that day to even address that anomaly, let alone explain it rationally. Any takers?

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» RE: Building 7 Posted by: Belter
» RE: Building 7 Posted by: YogiBear
» OK,YOU explain it! Posted by: Conservasaurus
Continued
Posted by: ljsullivan1166@earthlink.net on Sep 27, 2006 4:41 AM   
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P.S. And incidentally, do you know how many were involved with the Manhattan Project? Some 43,000 people were involved -- and no one knew anything about it until AFTER the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. This was due, in part, to the fact that many who were working on various bits of the project were kept in the dark about the big picture -- even they didn't know. But just imagine -- all of those people involved, and no one leaked anything. Probably because they were aware that to do so could get them a quick coffin.


It's quite possible to keep a massive conspiracy under wraps. It's been done many times.

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» RE: Continued Posted by: Smog
» RE: Continued Posted by: Conservasaurus
see mysteries of 9-11 video
Posted by: mo1912 on Sep 27, 2006 4:56 AM   
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http://www.informationliberation.com/index.php?id=15716
Steel columns do not slice themselves into neat diagonal cuts .Even this guys
"Scientist friends " ( Whatever !!) can't say otherwise .
This video is very informative ,anyone with any real interest in what happened that day should take the time to watch it .

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» RE: see mysteries of 9-11 video Posted by: Conservasaurus
You've convinced me, Matt. It was a conspiracy.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Sep 27, 2006 5:53 AM   
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I didn't believe the Bush administration was behind the 9/11 attack until I read this piece. But it is obvious that you somehow obtained an actual transcript of a planning session. The logic of Bush and his advisors is unmistakeable.

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9/11 truth fog
Posted by: pingoo on Sep 27, 2006 5:55 AM   
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I quite agree with much that this article is about. Even though I have admit to have been following the 9/11 conspiracy theory very closely over the past few months I am ready to admit that the situation is starting to border on the ridiculous and is not only losing credibility for the 9/11 Truth movement itself, but for the American people as a whole.

What I beleived the 9/11 truth movement was all about was to have a new enquiry into what happened on that dreadfull of days. On that aspect I fully agree - there are unanswered questions and the refusal of the US government to release more information on the subject makes everyone suspect that there is more to it than the 9/11 Commission report tells us all.

But from what I can see many of the people who are embracing this theory are so convinced of its truth that they are becoming aggressive and insulting to those who dare to question some of its aspects purely because there IS NO OFFICIAL PROOF. Its a complete reversal of the situation when there was a buildup to the Iraq war with a few similarities. Back in 2003 there was no proof of WMD's and whatnot yet many were convinced and would argue their point agressively with those who dared to question their opinion on the matter. The crowd is essentially the same, the motives different.

But what is most worrying is this: For a short while it really looked like people of the US started to think about what happened not only in the past 5 years but also about their position in the world stage in the past 60 years for the very first time in just as many decades. For once the US citizens were questioning their governments and their past rather than beleive blindly the rethoric that being the 'greatest nation on the planet' they 'could do no wrong' and that all foreign policies adopted by their current and past administration were for the good of everyone - a view that has been largely contested by probably the majority of the rest of the planet for a very very long time.

That I thought was probably the best thing that could happen to the US and it was a long time coming. Finally, it looked as if the US was going to change and join the rest of the world in constructive policy making for peace and the good of all nations rather than considering themselves the only superpower who needed to spread its culture across the globe for it to reach a hegemony that would guarantee peace by their standards and their standards only.

I feel that the current conspiracy theories are distracting people from the real problems - ones that have concrete proof and for which solutions should be found as soon as possible. A new 9/11 enquiry, although important, cannot take priority over what we already know has been committed and is being committed right under all our noses ever day.

Lets put it this way - what if we had a new enquiry and the conspirators were proved wrong woul: a. the 9/11 truth movement and its devoted followers be contempt? b. would that help to patch up all the atrocities committed towards innocent people all though out the globe? c. Would it affect the status of the current administration in any way that could turn out to send positive waves throughout the nation and the rest of the world?

What if the conspiracy was proved to be correct - what then? Sounds to me just like the plan for the invasion of Iraq - lots of firepower and no after plan. I rarely (actually, never) hear from the conspiracy sites about what would need to be done if suspicions were proved to be correct - in order to make a better nation. Makes me think that it isn't really part of the strategy at all.

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» RE: 9/11 truth fog Posted by: YogiBear
9/11 truth fog continued
Posted by: pingoo on Sep 27, 2006 5:55 AM   
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While all the conspiracy theorists are using up huge amounts of precious time and energy your government is actually discussing the idea of legalising torture and changing the Geneva Convention which is there to protect us all. While people focus on this idea which has no real proof - just confusion and varieties of interpretations - your government is stealing not only the your own rights but the ones of every one of us right from under your nose. And this last point, my dear Americans, is just one of many many many injustices perpetrated by Bush and the Neo-Conservatives of which we know all the facts and have all the proof in the world. Now where should we really be focusing our attention?

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» RE: 9/11 truth fog continued Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: 9/11 truth fog continued Posted by: AJAXXXXX
9/11 truth fog (Final part - promise!)
Posted by: pingoo on Sep 27, 2006 6:20 AM   
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One last point (promise!) -

To Matt himself - I would like to point out that at the start of my post I said I agreed about what your article was about. But I have a few problems about the direction you chose to prove your point. Like you there have been others lamenting the fact that the 9/11 conspiracy is taking on the form of a hype and with this I agree. But I wouldn't be surprised to receive as you said 'Fuck You' emails from people seen as you have taken a rather condescending tone with your readers - one that ridicules them and that does make it seem like you think that anyone who has a suspicion upon the reality of 9/11 to be incredibly stupid.

For this you are wrong and you might need to consider improving your writing style. If you were really so shocked at all the hate mail you have received then maybe - like all Americans should have done right after 9/11 itself - you should consider asking yourself what may have caused this instead of lashing out like you have by creating a little fictional story which frankly is an insult to those who enjoy to think freely and pose questions about current affairs.

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Myrajean
Posted by: myrajean on Sep 27, 2006 6:51 AM   
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I agree with the writer on one point of his piece. The 9-11 conspiracy theorists are giving ammunition to the opposition. They may be right, but they could better spend their energy fighting on some other front--especially since the truth is being tightly controlled by the same people who formed the conspiracy, if any.

That said, there is plenty of evidence to at least suggest that something went on behind the scenes. We know that the government lied, changed its official story, destroyed or otherwise disposed of physical evidence, and tried at every step to suppress any independent investigation. One thing we know for certain: they lied to rescue workers about the toxicitity of the air at Ground zero, and now 70% of the workers have either died or are sick. A government that would do that, it seems to me, would not stop at killing three thousand people to achieve its ends.

I also think the writer got so enamored of his own rhetoric that he committed some of the same errors that he accused the conspiracy theorists of: for example, he created a whole hypothetical scene to prove his point-- remarkably like the steaming bullshit he accused the opposition of. He also uses another tried and true neocon tactic-- namecalling. I noticed that he didn't factually refute a single item that the conspiracy people assert.

Finally, he painted the conspiracy people with a broad brush. They don't all believe the same thing. But they all know--and the writer should too-- that this administration would rather lie than tell the truth, that they have told identifiable lies about 9-11 and have used it for their own political ends. Therefore it is not unreasonable or silly to want to pursue the truth.

There is a huge mound of evidence, and some reputable, credible people who differ with the official story-- it would behoove the writer to withhold his judgment and support further investigation rather than lumping together all the theorists and dismissing them out of hand.

The article was too much like the administration propaganda we are inflicted with daily, not what I would expect from an investigative journalist who writes for Rolling Stone. Do you suppose he is one of those paid hacks that the government has hired to distribute misinformation?

Oops. sorry. That's what the opposition does-- call names and imply stuff.

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Don't say "X" because it gives us all a bad name. Well boo f#*!inghoo
Posted by: sln70 on Sep 27, 2006 7:15 AM   
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The problem is not the 9/11 truth movement. The problem isn't that liberals cheered when Chavez called Bush the devil. The problem isn't anything that "we the people" might say or do. We're HUMAN, for god's sake, we're FREE for God's sake, and we're ANGRY for god's sake.

We'll say whatever we want, and if your so called 'progressive' sensibilities can't take it, then buy some ear plugs.

If what other people say REALLY makes YOU look bad, then you're in trouble, buddy. Stand on your own merits, and quit worrying about everyone else's.

I've never in my life heard a conservative say "Oh boo-hoo, quit talking about the End Times, it makes us all look bad"

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MMMMM! DELISH!
Posted by: Roverton on Sep 27, 2006 7:50 AM   
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I love smog.

Some of these Conspiracy-Pussies can't handle breathing it in all day. Love it! Let the kids play in it.

Get you acts together, Lefties. Stop stalling the REAL process of getting back to how we were before 9/11 with all this 9/11 crap!

Don't get tangled in all of this complicated junk. The Left isn't complex enough to know what to do with it anyway.

Even right wingers agree it's not worth it - so I intend to listen to that advice.

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Funny
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Sep 27, 2006 7:56 AM   
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"...if there's one thing about Americans -- they won't let a president go to war without a damn good reason...Look at how hard it was to get us into Vietnam, Iraq the last time, Kosovo?"

That would make a great editorial cartoon: Uncle Sam being dragged, kicking and sceaming: "I don't wanna to to war!!!...I don't wanna to to war!!!"

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» RE: Funny Posted by: HeroesAll
waste of space
Posted by: spanky on Sep 27, 2006 5:42 PM   
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I used to like Taibbi, but this is nothing more than a dribble of shit.

Truth movement does not equal conspiracy theory. Simply pointing out that the official story is riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions, is not the same as claiming that BushCo masterminded the whole thing. If Taibbi can't even be bothered to make this distinction, he's useless.

This was arguably the worst crime ever committed on American soil, and the offical investigation of that crime was a cruel joke. The commission executive director, who basically set the agenda, was a Bush Cheney insider.

Bush initially offered just $3 Mil in funding for the 9/11 commission. Contrast that with:
$40 million.........amount spent on Clinton/Lewinsky investigation
$50 million.........amount budgeted for Challenger space shuttle disaster investigation
$40 million.........estimated cost of Bush/Cheney 2005 innauguration event

If BushCo had nothing to hide (either incompetence or complicity) they would have given the 9/11 commission the resources to do the job right. Right?

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LeNeveu
Posted by: LeNeveu on Sep 27, 2006 7:13 PM   
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Matt, though I am not gay, you have my blowjob anytime.

The new New York Press editor is a moron. You are a great writer.

LeNeveu

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» RE: LeNeveu Posted by: AJAXXXXX
A few comments
Posted by: jeotsu on Sep 27, 2006 8:37 PM   
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It is always exciting when an article generates lots of comments, though it can become rather disappointing when the comments degenerate into name calling or simple “yeah, me too!” statements.

I believe Matt may have made an error by broadly generalizing two distinct groups under the heading of the “9/11 truth movement.” There are those who feel that the investigation after the attacks was deliberately inadequate, and there are those who create alternate theories that differ very significantly from the stated version of what happened. The former feel justifiably vilified being lumped in with the later.

It is probably useful to apply Occam's razor to the problem. That is, search for the more simple explanation. Deliberately layering on complexity is likely to be moving you further from the truth.

I find it amazing that people who gleeful detail the litany of incompetence of the Bush administration (Katrina, Iraq rebuilding, the list is lengthy and depressing) can in the same breath talk about a vast and exceedingly complicated conspiracy that they pulled off within months of gaining office, involving huge numbers of people around the world. And they did this in a flawless and seemingly undetectable fashion, no less. I suppose they used up all their “competence juice” in those first 8 months, and then suddenly became helpless incompetents? Or perhaps (using Occam's razor) they were incompetents to begin with, and that is a better avenue for exploring what happened that day.

Never discount the power of incompetence. Assume the cause was “stupid” before it was “enemy action.” And why should we be surprised at a pattern of obstruction and obfuscation to any inquiry? If you held a position of power, and perhaps could have stopped 9/11 from happening, would you stand up and say “yes, it was my fault, I screwed up and let thousands die”? Because while you might, I have no problems believing that in a pathological ass-covering culture like one we have today, nobody would have the guts to own up to their mistakes. And LOTS of mistakes were made.

I also find it amusing that the more conspiracy-minded of the 9/11 crowd hold forth how “most scientists/engineers are puppets of the Man, but I have one here who agrees with our theory!” Really? So that means so long as one (or a small group) of scientists agree you must be right? Well, I guess Exxon/Mobile is right, and there is no global warming! And Philip Morris wants you to know that smoking is good for you!

You can't have it both ways. Either the majority of scientists are generally open-minding and free-thinking individuals, or they are all helpless pawns of the Machine. As Matt/Smog has said in comments above, the 9/11 conspiracy nutters have an amazing talent for cherry-picking the facts they want, while studiously ignoring anything that contradicts their view, and then not even recognizing the inherent contractions within their own “theories.”

As a final note, I think it amusing how some writers have complained how they disagreed with what Matt/Smog had written, and thus were packing up their toys and going home. Do you only read stuff with which you agree 100%? If so, in what way are you different from a “ditto head” who follows the conservative playbook? I believe a key to being “progressive” is maintaining an open mind. Considering the complexity of the world I can state with complete certainty that nobody is 100% correct (though some may be 100% wrong). We must be willing and able to read papers that cause us to challenge our own assumptions. Ideas that breed in isolation eventually become inbred.

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» RE: A few comments Posted by: JP2
» RE: A few comments Posted by: jeotsu
» RE: A few comments Posted by: JP2
Conspiracy-not so ridiculous
Posted by: speckster86 on Sep 27, 2006 10:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Steel buildings falling at nearly free fall time? "Incinerated" bodies being identified? I don't know why you so readily reject every "conspiracy theory" involving 9/11. When you look at what the government has said happened to the planes, bodies, buildings etc. against the physical evidence there is reason not to question.
This event was necessary for the peoples' support to go to war. What else did the government have? We found no weapons nor a link with Iraq to Al-Qaeda, which of course if obvious, Saddam being distrustful of religion competing with his secular dictatorship.

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The 'Progressive Movement" - Why It is Dead
Posted by: Nuuon on Sep 28, 2006 8:54 AM   
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What has helped to permanently kill the so-called "Progressive Movement" is not the "911 Truth Movement," but mainstream cowards like Rolling Stone writer Matt Taibbi. The REAL goal of fake progressives like Taibbi is the goal of trying to set a "career path" for himself among his fellow "responsible journalists." "Responsible" is mere code word for "out to lunch when it counts." The cowards in the mainstream media and academia have helped to create true MEGA-conspiracies like we faced on 911. These cowards sat back and relaxed when the FBI literally supervised and allowed the bombing of the World Trade Center back in 1993. A couple of journalist reported it: and then the "progressive movement" conveniently went to sleep. That story was too "hot" and too "scary" for them. The Taibbi-types wouldn't risk their "career path" and take a stand. They won't risk the possibility of losing a cushy job at a big-time mag or university. We have seen what happens to university professors and mainstream journalists when they step off the plantation and adopt a contrary view-- their mainstream careers come to a crashing end.

What? Am I calling Rolling Stone magazine "mainstream?" Get Real: Rolling Stone is the same "progressive mag" that managed to leave Black folks off of a list of the top Rock & Roll acts in history (Not even Chuck Berry's face managed to make it onto a beer can during that deal Rolling Stone had with Miller Brewing Company. Think about what that means.), as well as other consistently racist acts through the years. Rolling Stone is about as "progressive" as Hillary Clinton and a classic example of fraudulent progressivism. Yeah, that's the second thing that helped to permanently kill the so-called "Progressive Movement: It's just plain racist.

Once the cowardice of the pseudo progressive literati was publicly confirmed the secret government knew it could get away with virtually anything. And now we have 911.

The third thing that helped to permanently kill the so-called "progressive movement" (besides the shaky-legged cowardice of that movement's "leaders" and their second-rate intellectualism in the face of MEGA conspiracies and mass murder) is the unwillingness of that movement's leaders to face up to the bald-faced, racism, discrimination and murder that is committed by Israel. You can't have a "progressive movement" that deals with the Middle East if that "movement" is too cowardly to institute a systematic, relentless, global anti-apartheid movement that targets Israel. Without the "deal with Israel" element, any so-called "progressive movement" is a complete sham. The failure to deal with Israel has also left us vulnerable to MEGA conspiracy-- like the one that involved the U.S. and Israel conspiring to destroy Lebanon at the first pretext. Go ahead: call THAT a conspiracy theory.

So there you have it: The laughable, parasitic, mainstream career-oriented progressives-- I wouldn't let these saps lead me to the bathroom. And neither will millions of other wouldbe joiners. Nobody wants to follow a bunch of cowards who are basically just out for long-term employment.

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Debunking theory through ridicule?
Posted by: larry.gilliam on Sep 28, 2006 12:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry Matt,

You cannot debunk a theory by name-calling. You must address the science.

It is odd that you are unwilling to site a single one of your experts, or a single piece of the scientific evidence provided by the 'loose change' people. Unnamed experts have no credence; perhaps that is why they are cited so often by our media (oops, almost forgot that you are their representative).

One of the things I do not believe is that Bushco are incompetent. I believe that, to explain their rational we must look at what they might really be up to.

For instance:

Do they intend to control middle east oil in order to increase supply, or simply keep it in the ground as a way to control oil prices?

Do they intend to legalize torture to improve intelligence and thereby make America more secure, or do they intend to improve their own image by presenting the false confessions that will result from their use of torture?

There are many similar questions that need to be asked, and since secrecy and ridicule are the only tools offered by these (I mean you) cowards, what are we to believe?

Larry Gilliam

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Use science, not ridicule, to debunk theory.
Posted by: larry.gilliam on Sep 28, 2006 12:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry Matt,

You cannot debunk a theory by name-calling. You must address the science.

It is odd that you are unwilling to site a single one of your experts, or a single piece of the scientific evidence provided by the 'loose change' people. Unnamed experts have no credence; perhaps that is why they are cited so often by our media (oops, almost forgot that you are their representative).

One of the things I do not believe is that Bushco are incompetent. I believe that, to explain their rational we must look at what they might really be up to.

For instance:

Do they intend to control middle east oil in order to increase supply, or simply keep it in the ground as a way to control oil prices?

Do they intend to legalize torture to improve intelligence and thereby make America more secure, or do they intend to improve their own image by presenting the false confessions that will result from their use of torture?

There are many similar questions that need to be asked, and since secrecy and ridicule are the only tools offered by these (I mean you) cowards, what are we to believe?

Larry Gilliam

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opinion of structural engineer
Posted by: OldGVerden on Sep 28, 2006 1:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matt (if I may be so bold as to call you by your first name),

As a structural engineer, I'm paid to think about buildings - and those three in NY definitely have issues. That's what sucked me into this movement.

There is a lot of disinformation out there. Sift through it - use your brain. There are a lot of holes in the official story - that's what is troubling to people.

I second the people who have recommended "Crossing the Rubicon" Just make sure you have a bottle of scotch nearby.

Oh, and for insinuating that anyone who doesn't agree with the official story is a lunatic ------ fuck you, dickhead (trust me, you deserve it. deal with it)

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» Mr. structural engineer Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Mr. structural engineer Posted by: AJAXXXXX
When You Can't Trust Your Government
Posted by: nherkowitz on Sep 28, 2006 1:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When your government lies to you all the time and you see them try to control the investigations into 9/11, this is what you get.

Plain & simple, people don't believe you can trust the government to tell you the real story. Everything in the Bush administration is a lie, top secret or a cover up. Why should American's think that 9/11 was any different?

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justvisitingfromanotherplanet
Posted by: boadicca on Sep 28, 2006 2:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sorry that the childish name-calling by a few bloggers initiated childish name-calling by the columnist, whose attempts to castigate the 911 Truth Movement are puerile. He states that he will not address the issues. Too bad, because then he would have to do some research, read engineering reports, statements by pilots who had flown the 911 planes previously, look at graphs of gravitational effect, and read hundreds of statements by real people who were there. I can understand that the idea that his government lied to him may be unpalatable but the least he can do is to not write total drivel before doing the research.

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Idiocy or Truth?
Posted by: matildavance on Sep 28, 2006 3:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is important to appreciate the importance of civility of matters of such grave importance. Every social movement of any kind success or importance carried the standards of faith and respect.
There are some who would attempt to lower the level of discourse by trying to label dissent as 'Idiocy' or the product of 'conspiracy nuts'. The response needs to be thoughtful and patient. It is natural to deny that the government may have played some part in the tragedy of 911, and the 911 Truth Movement should expect some level of resistance in the media.

For me, the word 'idiocy' applies to any blind acceptance of anything without in depth analysis and research. This applies to both the 911 Commission report and the work of the 911 Truth Movement.

A good place to start is the Scholars for Truth site at Scholars for 911 Truth or the main site of the movement at 911truth.org. As knowledge becomes more widespread, it is now more important than ever that we practice patience, compassion, and courage. There can be no real progress without these.

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Joe Reedy
Posted by: Joeraider on Sep 28, 2006 4:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ahh, when the Robert Kennedy article on the election rigging was published, it made me regret. momentarily, I had dropped my subscription to Rolling Stone. I say 'momentarily' because after reading this tripe, I'll never look at the rag again.

The writer alleges that we who don't believe the government's conspiracy theory believe that George Bush and his confederates are smart enough to pull off this tragedy and leave no evidence or witnesses behind. Au contraire, mon frere! They left plenty of clues. These clues are all over the Loose Change video, also with the "In Plane Site" piece and evident in the report put out by those who want to reopen the investigation.

An immature job security seeker like this writer wants to exaggerate legitimate claims to make his incoherent point. This doesn't change a thing.

One of the 9/11 sites offers a $100,000 prize to anyone who can present evidence solidly refuting their possibilities. My advice to the writer is go wave your latest piece of gibberish at them and see if they give you the cash.

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WILLFUL IGNORANCE=STUPIDITY
Posted by: joestokes on Sep 28, 2006 4:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Looks like about 70% of commenters disagree with the author. They must have done some research. Here is an opportunity to educate yourself or remain IGNORANT. If you choose to remain IGNORANT then it is willful. Willfull IGNORANCE is STUPIDITY.

The CHOICE is YOURS.

9/11 Inquiry Sites
911Truth.org
patriotsquestion911.com
scholarsfor911truth.org
journalof911studies.com
911CitizensWatch.org
ny911truth.org
dc911truth.org
911citizenscourt.com
Justicefor911.org
911inquiry.org
sf911truth.org
911truth-tucson.org
vt911.org
911independentcommission.org
septembereleventh.org
911forthetruth.com
911ea.org
wtceo.org
911truthla.us
pilotsfor911truth.org
9/11 Related Sites
questioning911.com
cooperativeresearch.org
911Research.WTC7.net
911revisited.com
911review.com
911eyewitness.com
v911t.org
Citizens Counter-Coup
911readingroom.org
911busters.com
mujca.com
911weknow.com
tyrannyalert.com
universalseed.org
911omissionreport.com
911truthseekers.org
killtown
8thestate.com
ReOpen911.org
9eleven.info
911source.org
911think.com
911tv.org
globalconspiracyvideos.com
whokilledjohnoneill.com/
grandtheftcountry.com
oprah911.com
Youth for 9/11 Truth
truth911.net
justacitizen.com
MartialLaw911.info
911truestory.com
911sharethetruth.com
wanttoknow.info
deceptiondollar.com
team8plus.org
bush911video.com
truthmove.org
Flight77.info
explosive911analysis.com
flight93crash.com
unansweredquestions.org
911blimp.net
emergencynow.info
911bookshelf.com
summeroftruth.org
911truthradio.com
supportthetruth.com
mime11.com
oilempire.us
physics911.net
physics911.ca
jonhs.net/911/
nw0.info
9/11 International Sites
terrorize.dk
11syyskuu.org
stoplying.ca
20010911.se
serendipity.li
eqgen.nl/aanslagen911
onderzoek911.nl
waarheid911.nl
vkmag.com/zapruder
911truthbristol.com
911truthtotnes.com
september11.se
vaken.se
911oz.com
911dossier.co.uk
nineeleven.co.uk
hintergrund.de
broeckers.com
thecoop.tv
operation911.de
medienanalyse-international.de
911komplott.de
deepjournal.com
ditkannietwaarzijn.nl
scottishinternationalist.com
truth4peace.co.uk

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» RE: WILLFUL IGNORANCE=STUPIDITY Posted by: Conservasaurus
EL DIABLOCO AND THE SECRET AGENDA
Posted by: Burtonger on Sep 28, 2006 7:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is not what you think you know that's scary ,it's what you really don't know that's scariest. ...That sounds kind a Rummy ?
What do war criminals,traitors,liars,profiteers and theives have to do with conspiracy ?

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Your problem is...
Posted by: StitchJones on Sep 28, 2006 8:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You are equating all 9/11 Truth with Loose Change and physical evidence.
- Whistleblower Sibel Edmonds says she knows several high-level Americans are tied to the crimes and she is being gagged.
- The head of Pakistani intelligence wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta just before the attacks and was on Capitol Hill on 9/11 meeting with congressional intelligence leaders.
- Two 9/11 Commissioners recently revealed in a book that NORAD lied so bad they were considering referring that department to the Justice Department. Why publish a Commissioner paper based on NORAD's lies? The NORAD timeline has changed at least three times.
- Who was running the wargames that went on that day?
- Why did Bush ignore specific international warnings about the attacks from guys like Putin?
- Why did Ashcroft ignore warnings from a guy representing FBI agents, David Schippers, (and who prosecuted Bill Clinton, so he's no Democratic hack)?
- Why didn't the 9/11 Commission comment on the infamous Mineta testimony?
You should to watch 9/11 Press For Truth and Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime and steer away from Loose Change. Also, please read Paul Thompson and Nafeez Ahmed's books for the facts, then move on to Mike Ruppert's book for the theory. Thank you.

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Good Job Matt. LMAO
Posted by: Hairog on Sep 28, 2006 9:25 PM   
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Good job Matt. The scene you painted was absolutely hysterical, not to be confused with historical. Laughed my ass off. How can anyone really think that Cheney and his bunch of idots could pull this off. There must be a lot of money or fame to be made in this "Truth about 911" stuff. I always follow the money, power or the quest for fame. It will always lead you to who is telling the truth.

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I just hope....
Posted by: NIKUZAI on Sep 29, 2006 2:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that most members of the 9/11 Truth Movement have not yet been returned to Earth by their alien abducters (from their nightly anal examination) by the time you posted this!

Seriously, there is a massive leap from exposing holes in official accounts of 9/11 to theorising that cruise missiles, etc, were involved. You are talking, afterall, about an administration that failed utterly to plan for post-invasion Iraq (someone will probably tell me that they planned to fail - all I have to say to that someone is that the aliens have called and they want their bitch back - you better get running!).

The problem is with these conspiracy theorists is that, rather than try and convince other people, whenever they talk about their theories they are so obviously trying to convince themselves: they so want to believe that this is a false flag op. Please: get a life!

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Conspiracies Are The Way of The World
Posted by: Nuuon on Sep 29, 2006 5:32 AM   
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Conspiracies Are The Way of The World

We apparently have three kinds of people who believe in (or are pushing) the White House version of what happened on 911: 1) The lamebrains who don't know anything about global history and politics, 2) The opportunists who are looking to carve out a political niche (and dollars) for themselves and can only do it by attacking the 911 Truth Movement, and 3) The vocal cowards who don't want to take on the responsibility of dealing with the murderers responsible for the 911 conspiracy.

Since I believe the first group of people (the lamebrains) make up the largest proportion of those who still believe the White House version of events I will address myself to them. In this case I would like to explain a simple fact of life: Conspiracies Are The Way Of The World. Anyone who believes that multi-billionaires simply sit back and let a throw of the dice control the future of the resources they own is a child still in the process of becoming a political adult.

You know they must be political babies because they keep asking a baby's question: "These 'conspiracies' would require the involvement of so many people: How is it possible to keep the conspiracy a secret? The truth is, conspiracies are a way of life and most of their secrets stay secrets forever. Bush and Cheney are mere front men. The technocrats and specialists do the heavy lifting in these cases.

Here's a simple example for you to chew on: Let's look at the CIA, NSA, FBI, Secret Service, and the various and sundry intelligence agencies affiliated with the army, air force and navy: 16 intelligence agencies in all (that we know off). All told, these agencies employ hundreds of thousands of people. And there are literally thousands of covert programs/operations going on as we speak that require thousands of covert agents. Add compartmentalization and the "need to know" style of operating and it becomes clear how easy it is to carry out so many sustained conspiracies. Now add to the mix the numerous foreign government intelligence agencies, foreign corporate intelligence agencies and foreign private intelligence agencies.

Now Quick: How many covert operations were exposed by whistle blowers in the past ten years? That's right, not many. You can probably count them on three fingers. Think about what that means.

That means that the hundreds of thousands of people who are employed by all of these agencies and the tens of thousands of hands-on operatives are VERY capable of keeping secrets. And most of them have signed contracts that say they will go to jail if they don't. Many know they could be killed if they don't. And some are killed because they won't.

Remember all that recent hubbub when the name of just ONE covert CIA agent was published in the press? It was almost political Armageddon for some of the most powerful public people in this country. Again, think about what that means. . .

It's time to grow up.

Thousands of people keep this government's super secrets to themselves every day of the week. Yes, and many of the paid secret keepers have jobs in the major media "reporting" the "news."

Again, Conspiracies Are The Way of The World.

Speaking of conspiracies: what is most telling is the fact that a memo seems to have been issued. Because if the 911 "conspiracy" is true (and it is), then it is no longer about some weak "progressivism." It's all about revolution now, and the "progressives" have never had the stomach for that. Attacking the 911 Truth Movement is the only way these "progressives" can maintain their relevance. In the process they end up doing the bidding of the real conspirators. And trust me: the mouthpieces of the panicked conspirators will soon be quoting moronic opportunists like Matt Taibbi in defense of themselves.

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An open letter to Matt Tabbi; sent to RS editor Sept 29
Posted by: Linedriven on Sep 29, 2006 8:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hello Matt,
I'll start by saying I'm not left or right, but I believe in liberty vs. tyranny, a spectrum of governance long lost in the United States. Your article "I, left gatekeeper" was disturbing to me in it's rather arrogant dismissal of the 911 truth movement. You have obviously approached the situation from a subjective point of view, deciding pre-emptively what your conclusion will be. This is a problem among the truth movement as well, and it leads, unfortunately, to much of the mis-information that you account for as the lack of "a single, concrete theory". Of course you ignore the fact that most of us have not set out to lay out such a theory, but instead we point out the discrepancies in the official version of events and demand that an un-biased investigation take place. You and other "911 conspiracy debunkers" like popular mechanics criticize us for our lack of a unified theory. Then when some of us do hypothesize on some of the unknowns you criticize us for our lack of concrete evidence. You can't have it both ways, maybe our theory would be more complete if we were allowed to see the evidence, hear the black boxes, see the other video of the pentagon crash, and if the steel from the towers was not Removed before any investigation"Early confusion over who was in charge of the site and the lack of authority of investigators to impound pieces of steel for examination before they were recycled led to the loss of important pieces of evidence that were destroyed early during the search and rescue effort."

You want some responses to your questions?

If you just need an excuse to assume authoritarian powers, why fake a plane crash in Shanksville?

Some evidence suggests that the plane was shot down, a number of eyewitnesses say they saw a white jet in the area. Names of these people include; Lee Purbaugh, Susan Mcelwain, Kathy Blades, Anna Ruth Fisher, Jim Brandt, and Tom Spinelli.

If you're using bombs, why fake a hijacking, why use remote-control planes?

This allows them to extend the "authoritarian powers" into the airline industry and makes for a much more dramatic scene.

If the entire government apparatus is in on the scam, then why bother going to all this murderous trouble at all ?

Because it's not, there are select elements within the government that would know everything. Most in the system are compartmentalized as a matter of course. One needs only follow orders. Anyone in intelligence systems have signed confidentiality agreements that carry harsh penalties, this prevents, or at least quells the "whistleblowers". Also there are those that believe that they are a part of the system, they enjoy subjugating others, it's called a power trip.

It's hard to believe that you are willing to believe that George Bush and co. stole the elections, a task that would take as many conspirators to accomplish as 911. The US governments have been carrying out false flag terror events for many years, including The gulf of tonkin incident. If you find it hard to believe that the government could even conceive of an event like 911 I challenge you to look into Operation Northwoods. A recently de-classified document written by the DoD and the JCS in the 1960's which proposed a staged attack upon american civilian an military targets(including hijacked planes), which would be blamed on Cuba to justify an invasion of that country.

Live in peace,
Dustin South

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First they . . .
Posted by: covalentbonded on Sep 29, 2006 8:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ignore you (was done for 4+ years). Then they ridicule you (above article just one example), then they fight you (coming), then they join you. Gandhi said that and it is playing out. My only question is: How long will the third phase last?

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Ideas explored better than ideas ignored
Posted by: Mike M on Sep 29, 2006 8:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While there are certainly plenty of "wackos" among the conspiracy theorists, there are also plenty of people asking rational questions that the government ought to answer. Whether the answers point to conspiracy, or just general incompetence, the American public deserves answers to the questions that few outside of the so-called "9/11 Truth Movement" are even willing to ask. Tom DeLay bludgeoned Congress into agreeing to a "limited" investigation into the White House's actions on 9/11. Is Rolling Stone/Matt Taibbi really backing up that "less info is better" position? It's disheartening to see a journalist chastise people for asking questions, since that is the foundation of journalism itself. In addition, if one is going to skewer a group of people, journalistic fairness dictates that you put that group on its best footing first; the Washington Post did this in its "9/11 conspiracy" coverage, but Matt Taibbi has instead opted to pick on the weakest links (which I assume he has chosen to do because he figured it would be funnier). Personally, I think our funny "journalists" (John Stewart, Stephen Colbert) are plenty, but where are the investigative journalists? Do we really need a guy interviewing Kerry in an ape suit (as Taibbi did), or do we need someone who will ask the questions that others won't? I have no respect for a journalist who makes fun of citizens for asking questions, even if some of the questions are outlandish.

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Sigh...
Posted by: tlazz on Sep 29, 2006 9:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The idiocy of Rolling Stone writers named Matt ... sigh.

Try educating yourself on the subjects you wish to write about in order to keep some of your integrity, Matt. You undoubtedly did not do your research. Good job corporate america. Uneducating people, one at a time.

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Ok. Finished?
Posted by: reprehensor on Sep 29, 2006 5:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you feel better now, snookums? I hope you don't mind me calling you snookums (actually, I don't care) but after such a childish, spoiled little kid rant, I'm going to assume you are at best: a teenager with a bad case of the hormones.

There are several books that detail a complete theory, and if you did the most elementary amount of research, you would find that Webster Griffin Tarpley's "Synthetic Terror" is among the most comprehensive. Alas, I fear it is above your reading level. Mike Ruppert's "Crossing the Rubicon" has been cited up-thread as well. Frankly, I don't think you are ready for that either.

The onus is not upon me or any other researcher to present to you piles of hard earned data that you will not read, or if you do give the research a cursory glance, you won't absorb it or take it seriously anyhow, so what is the point? If I wanted to get in a flamefest with someone with a little more technical ability, I guess I would pick Alexander Cockburn, the man who thinks 9/11 skeptics are a cult, but scientology is not. Ha!

The level of serious, academic, analytic, comprehensive research is on the up-tick. In fact, it reached a crescendo this summer with the publication of "The Hidden History of 9-11-2001", published by Elsevier, a serious, major producer of respected research, both in science and the humanities. Here, I even reviewed it for you, trust me, it's really good. (Link.)

You know what the best part of the book is, snookums? A professor of economics has done some cross-checking and number-crunching and guess what? The 9/11 Commission lied to us, snookums! There is evidence of insider trading on AA and United prior to 9/11. Wowsers!

It's an expensive book, though. Since you've been such a jerk lately, you might have trouble getting a review copy, but go ahead and try, you might be surprised.

Then there is the excellent book by Canadian media critic, Barrie Zwicker, "Towers of Deception". This book is a comprehensive overview of 9/11 skepticism, and the glaring anomalies and contradictions that have not been thoroughly addressed by the corporate or alternative media. Maybe, just maybe, "alternative" or "progressive" media doesn't want to piss off the corporate sponsors who drive "Foundation Funding". Maybe.

Don't worry! I reviewed it for ya! (Link.) I'll bet ya Barrie would send you a review copy if you ask nice...

bwz(at)rogers.com

Oooh! This one just came out! Like the Elsevier book, some very, very intelligent people wrote this one... the title is a dead giveaway... "9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out". (See how they tell you right up front that they are smart? That's called "intellectual honesty". Something you don't dabble in.)

Check it out! Here are some of the contributors;

Richard Falk, Milbank Professor of International Law, emeritus, Princeton University. (Smart!)

David Ray Griffin, professor of the philosophy of religion and theology, emeritus, at Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Graduate University in Claremont, California. (Not dumb!)

Karen U. Kwiatkowski, She holds an M.A. in government from Harvard University, an M.S. in science management from the University of Alaska, and a Ph.D. in world politics from the Catholic University of America. (She also used to work in the Pentagon, ooh! Plus intelligent!)

John McMurtry, professor of philosophy and University Professor emeritus at the University of Guelph, Canada, and a fellow of the Royal Society of Canada. (I checked, and guess what? Dummies don't get to be in the RSC, snookums!)

Yup, I reviewed it for you snookums! (Link.)

Bye!

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Peter H (Australia)
Posted by: Peter_Oz on Sep 29, 2006 10:12 PM   
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Fair dinkum - the stupidity is breath taking!! Why cant you idiots get it through your thick skulls? The hole in the Pentagon wall was 16' across - the diameter of a Boeing 757 is 26' . Anyone with an IQ larger than their shoe size can deduct it wasn't an airplane that hit the Pentagon. Then again, we have this Rolling Stone writer who knows all about forensics of an airplane crash scene to explain the impossible - there is no "conspiracy theory" - there is a conspiracy and anyone who says no to its existence is a dickhead.

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» RE: Peter H (Australia) Posted by: Maxdwolf
Dunau
Posted by: Dunau on Sep 30, 2006 2:29 PM   
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I can relate to Peter's sentiments.

Anytime I read the comments following an article about the 911 truth movement I start to wonder if I am living in that Bizzaro world in the old Superman comics.

It is a complete mystery to me that during all the discussions no one focuses the dialog on the few, basic questions that, when answered sans smugly confident ignorance or self-centered disingenuity provide the context with which all other questions can be assessed.

I eagerly await enlightenment from those who so casually and confidently dismiss the 911 truth movement as a bunch of psychotic wackos. I‘ll keep an open mind. I’m willing to be convinced.

If those who lay claim to such lofty patronization can’t answer in a direct* manner a handful of basic questions that bring to light the most incontrovertible realities that surround the events of 911, any reasonable person would conclude that their simplistic and childish approach demonstrates that it is they who are actually the “wackos.”

Please, just consider these few questions:

1 Never before and never since have any steel framed high-rise building collapsed due to fire. Why is it even remotely plausible that a single day 3 buildings collapsed because of “super hot” fires? Isn’t it strange that one of the buildings wasn’t covered by the “unique circumstances” smokescreen?

2 Authoritative and official news sources (Nova, Popular Mechanics, etc.) aside, using your superior common sense and understanding of the laws of physics, explain how all of the buildings collapsed perfectly, vertically into their foundations at very close to the speed of gravity (with the exception of the huge sections of columns flung horizontally into the façade of neighboring buildings.) Where was the resistance from the undamaged floors that the “pancaking” floors were collapsed into?

3 Why is it that the core of the building, made up of 47 box columns that had 2” thick walls collapsed along with the rest of the building? Remember, all those flimsy un-fireproofed floor joists were supported by the core, not the other way around. Gee, even the Nova special had an animation showing the floors collapsing around the core like a CDs on a spindle. How did the cores of the buildings crumble?

There are other questions, but the failure to answer these questions brings to light the infantile name caller’s absurd attempts to violate the laws of physics that inconveniently conflict with their dishonest agenda. Their ability to lie, cheat and steal and their skill at avoiding any consequences may have success in the fairy tale world they have convinced many to prefer over reality.

The shallow and deceptive “de-bunking” points on the anti-911truth websites appear to have been written by some angry teenager. That includes the dedicated coverage on this subject by Popular Mechanics. Come on guys, grow up and get a grasp on the real world. Your sophomoric talking points reveal your ignorance and disingenuity.

Anyone have any cogent answers to the questions?


*The meaning of directly in this case is that the answers must be directly related to the question being asked. Logical reasoning appears to be out of style these days. More often then not one is presented with the, usually obvious, tortured and convoluted logic to serve some hidden, self-serving agenda or, even more frequently, infantile ad hominem attacks on the questioner.

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» Addendum Posted by: Dunau
911 theory
Posted by: Mollie on Oct 1, 2006 7:40 AM   
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Matt, I enjoy reading you and will continue to do so. I don't have a theory, I just want the truth. I know that the towers fell by controlled demolition. Crashes are messy, random. I feel like the woman who catches her husband in the act with another woman. He denies it saying "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" As for being called crazy, often when people run out of arguments they start calling names, on both sides.

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Just Another Left Gatekeeper
Posted by: LeftWright on Oct 2, 2006 12:42 AM   
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This commentary by Mr. Taibbi is laughably bad.

Mr. Taibbi is just another "leftwing" gatekeeper working overtime and not worth our time. While I and many others could completely refute all his points I will not bother to deconstruct his commentary. I just have two words for him and all those who doubt the truth of 9/11:

MOLTEN STEEL

There has been no "official" or scientifically verifiable explanation for the large amounts of molten steel found at the sites other than controlled demolition. Even the NIST report, the most recent and lengthy attempt to confuse the stark reality of the facts, makes no attempt to explain the molten steel.

There are 1000's of unanswered questions and more arising every day about the events surrounding September 11, 2001.

Mr. Taibbi, I would ask you to answer only four of these questions and publish your findings publicly. They are:

1) Who engaged in the short selling of the affected stocks (American, UAL, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, Munich Re, etc) and the unusually high purchases of U.S. Treasury Notes in the period just prior to September 11, 2001?

2) What are the titles of the 3,000 to 4,000 cases the SEC was investigating which were destroyed when WTC 7 fell?

3) What were David Frasca's (FBI) orders and who did he report to?

4) Who did Mahmood Ahmed (ISI) meet with during his visit to the U.S. just before, during and just after September 11, 2001?


Why are there so many articles in the MSM and online trying to refute the facts of 9/11?

Recent polls show 42% of Americans believe the Bush Administration is covering something up, 36% believe the administration let it happen (or made it happen) and 16% believe WTC 1,2 and 7 were brought down by controlled demolition. Modern, message politics is completley poll driven and the demand for 9/11 truth is swelling to its inevitable tipping point. Thus, we see the increasingly desperate and transparent attempts to fight the losing battle against the truth; denying facts and rewriting science as needed.

In his book, Towers of Deception, Barrie Zwicker does an excellent job explaining the role of left gatekeepers in regard to 9/11. I highly recommend this book.

The flaming elephant in the room is 9/11 truth.

Please don't let the gatekeepers, right and left, get you down. Just do what I do, talk to people and give away as many copies of The New Pearl Harbor by David Ray Griffin as you can.

WARNING: AlterNet is a Left Gatekeeper funded by the Schumann Foundation

The truth shall set you free. Love is the only way forward.

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What is missing
Posted by: oneofthesedays on Oct 2, 2006 1:03 AM   
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I think the article unintendently gives the reason why so many people - and not only in the us - believe in a conspiracy. Because Matt Taibibi doesn't give a dammn about all the unanswered questions. The post 9-11 media was all to willing to swallow and reproduce the bullshit that was served to them and is now obviously to ashamed of itself to adress these things again. Why was it possible to have names and photographs of the terrorists and details of their plot (does Huffman Aviation ring a bell?) on the evening of the attacks, but why didn't we learn anything new about them ever since. When and how did anybody who calls himself a journalist follow up these stories and try to proof their plot? And I am not talking about Mohammed Atta, but the 18 or 19 lesser known, some of whom may be alive, so maybe there was a mixup and so on. When is someone ever going to follow up this plot and its members, buddy?
I live in a country where people are taken away on the street by the CIA and flown to secret interrogation camps far away where the may never come back from. No, I do not live in Afghanistan, I live in Germany. The CIA seems to be an organisation that operates on misspelled arabic names, lazy assumptions amd no operational limits. Are we supposed to believe, who they told us brought down the twin towers?
Are we supposed to believe anything told to us by an administration that lied to the world in the UN Security Council on Iraq's WMD?
I think ignoring the 9-11 Truth movement is painfully arrogant. True, a deduction leading to all men are Socrates may not reach you level of intellectual debate. But the fact that many people believe that all men are Socrates should give responsible journalists enough reason to start adressing the "facts". And that includes both sides, I think.
G. W. Bush is a failure fur America, but he is a nightmare for the world. He can and will not be trusted. Nor will anything that he or his administration has ever said.
And if you are foolish enough to still believe what he told the world after 9-11, you might as well start your own conspiracy movement, the "Al-Quaida did it"-Movement. And when you do so, please start by explaing: "What exactly is Al-Quaida, who is behind it?" And, we need proof here. Fingeprints, car bombs, cars, appartments. Belonging to Al-Quaida. We're waiting!

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I agree... and I am a 911 Truther....
Posted by: USMousie on Oct 2, 2006 2:12 PM   
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I agree with you Matt.
I agree, that is, with your first article.

Turning the dead into heroes, as if dying in the towers were more heroic than any other of the far more thann 3000 deaths in our country per day. Deiifying the families of the 911 dead as in some way more tragic than-- likewise. The ignorance of half of American citizens who don't ask questions, demand answers, expect ruthless media reporting and question the world that their leaders are doping them with. In fact I agree heartily with this quote, which Matt supports throughout the article: "We did just about everything except honestly ask ourselves what the hell really happened, and why."
Also Matt made an ignorant and rude comment, which is his smart-alec style, about a group of people that he knew nothing about-- and didn't care to know about-- the 911 Truth movement, which, even with nothing but this kind of disinformation in the media, comprises a third to a half of the intelligent mainstream American citizenry. Many of these people wrote to disagree, and maybe a few used a few swears or stupid comments; I'm sure most were fine. But the way Matt reacted you'd think you told him your dog fucked his mother.
Matt scrawled out a long, incomprehensible, ignorant and stupidly insulting article which should never have beenn published, in which he.. we all know. Wow, that was a backlash. Funny thing is, I bet if he had read the letters and thought about it, he might have realized that all the 911 Truth movement is, is a movement trying to do EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED! "... honestly ask ourselves what the hell really happened, and why."
What happened? Someone seemingly intelligent asks some honest questions until some of the questions lead to.. things that are too hard to think about. 911 was an extremely traumatic event for the whole country. It was drilled into our heads by news stations showing the towers falling hundreds of times. The whole citizenry of our country, collectively, suffer from PTSD. Whenever anything comes up which reminds one of a trauma, one instantly recoils. A trauma victim often freezes, mind or body. They return to that state as though it were today: The pain doesn't abide. This is why so many intelligent Americans, when offered clear evidence that the government story is a lie, recoil and sometimes react in anger, without thought. They aren't stupid, they are traumatized. This is why Matt, I will assume a usually reasonable human being, created that insane, ugly diatribe that the preceding letters have well taken apart.
But even when it hurts like Hell, and even if it takes time, and even if it makes us afraid or sad, we have to "honestly ask ourselves what the hell really happened, and why."

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I'M WITH YOU BUT ... suppose it was a "passive" Reichstag?
Posted by: Maezeppa on Oct 2, 2006 5:36 PM   
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"Your basic Reichstag fire scenario, logical enough so far."

Dear Mr. Taibbi:

I agree all this amateur forensics is preposterous and Karl Rove couldn't do a better disinformation campaign than what is going on now.

But suppose somebody, perhaps communicating with Al Qaeda through the ISI, helped instigate an attack? Suppose they persuaded people by proxy to act and then just let it happen?

It seems apparent to me that somebody made a crude attempt to mimimize loss of life. Why? Terrorists might, in order to lower the chance of serious retaliation. American leadership might, out of a warped sense of "decency".

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azxman
Posted by: azxman on Oct 2, 2006 10:47 PM   
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I have watched this administration take away our rights lie constantly and I can't believe that there are people that still support them. If you that support Bush would read once in a while instead of only looking at the propaganda that bush has paid for on the major networks, you might actually realize that he is running a shaddow government called the North American Union. In case your not smart enough to read the constitution and obviously are not, you would learn that this act alone is treason. and you still support Benedict Bush. I can't believe you feel all high and mighty about all this. There is also the question of incompetance, which is totally false. Bush is smart and is following the road to globalism to the letter. Maybe by 2010 when you actually get a clue that you have no rights and your country has been sold out then you will get it. so don't bash those of us who follow constitutional law and know what you have lost and are even trying to save it for you pathetic robots. The 911 debate has gone on since bush and his CFR buddies released the 911 commission report that they even admit themselves that the defence department and norad lied to them. A simple Independent investigation would clear all this up. So keep laughing fools and feel all high and mighty for your rights are gone too. It's just slight of hand, look over here, pay attention to this while they (neocons) are furthering their agenda more every day. I hope you like the North American Union and the forty million mexicans your taxes will have to bail out because their currency isn't worth squat. and the flood of cheap labor to take your jobs. Not all mexicans are uneducated and they will take the middle class jobs as well. so write something that is more than republican blabber, please!!!!!

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RE: see mysteries of 9-11 video
Posted by: Eternal Vigilance on Oct 6, 2006 5:21 PM   
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You must not have watched the video. Watch the video then dare to suggest those cuts were "where the steel was joined." Five years is plenty of time to get sick and tired of people who didn't care enough about America to watch closely as developments unfolded. There were reports about the sulfidation of steel back in the spring of '02. New York Times. Proof right there of demolition. BushCo consistently thwarts all possible inquiry. Van Romero was ridiculed to change his observation made on 9/11/01 that the buildings appeared to fall due to a planned demolition. Why (Smog?). NO investigation was done then, or could have been that early, and there was immediate insinuation that Van Romero was asking a question that was out of bounds. BY Jan. of '02, a scorching article in Fire Engineering magazine appeared, condemning the "half-baked farce" of FEMA-controlled "investigation" and explaining in detail what was so outrageously contained and derailed about the way the government was containing the investigation. You, Conservasaurus, I see as being just intellectually asleep at the switch and deficient in deductive logic. People like the well-named Smog are either woefully deficient as reporters, woefully ignorant of the workings of the power elite networks as documented by people like Carroll Quigley and Antony Sutton, or slick plants who are trying to rein in untidy and dangerous free inquiry. The people accusing the government, some elements within this usurping clan and its allies, are condescending enough to scare away newbies, but merely irritating to those who have labored to acquire dome depth of field" on the realities involved in ruling large masses of people.

Watch the video and then ask "is this just where the steel is joined?" If you don't care enough to research but do care enough to hang around this forum, then watch the damn 90-minute video.

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Re: Righ on the Mark!
Posted by: Eternal Vigilance on Oct 8, 2006 10:30 AM   
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Nonsense. There are so many incriminating pieces of evidence, you probably just can't wrap your tiny mind around the mass of them. You, Conservasaurus, remind me of a work colleague I knew once who had built a shrine to G. W. Bush at his workspace. He saw my local letters to the editor and started engaging me in political conversation. I sent him an article containing Nafeez Ahmed's Chapter 4 of "The War on Truth," complete with 47 footnotes backin gup what he had documented. He wrote back and said I had no sources, I was just making stuff up! This is the picture of a Dittohead, Bush-zombie, Republican, know-nothing, turdbrain head of cattle. Nothing can be done for those who opt out of rational analysis. Here's a small sampling of what the 9/11 truth research movement has documented: seismic readings and first-hand testimony agreeing that explosions in the ground occurred before any jet struck a tower; a Cover-up pattern by the usurper, PNAC-based (Liked/AIPAC beholden) government; forewarned officials avoiding flights that day; "dancing Israelis" linked to Israeli intelligence celebrating as the towers burned; eutectic reaction in the recovered steel samples; molten steel in the ground months later; expert (Van Romero) censured and pressured into changing his tune for saying on 9/11 they looked like controlled demolitions when it was at least as good an explanation as any, and no investigation even had time to be done yet; massive insider trading on the disaster initially alarming experts but later downplayed, under a shroud of secrecy by the government; former head of the Deutschbank office that handled these trades being made 3rd in command of the CIA in Mar. 2001 -- when he left the post in Nov. of 2004 he said Osama bin Laden was of no importance because he only inspired and financed terror attacks; CEOs of the companies HQ'ed in the Trade Center partying with Warren Buffett way off from the site at Offutt AFB on 9/11; multiple war games diverting the nation's air defenses and even involving "mock" attacks on WTC and NSA HQ, which evacuated the building of people who normally monitor the earth from space -- and there's much, much, more in the way of evidence and hundreds of "shocking coincidences" that have been put on the record -- and you say they're all a sum of "nothing."

"Smog" won't even investigate the molten metal and he says, implicitly, "trust my superior insight because I'm a 'journalist.' Screw you, pal. Having seen the mainstream media's and government's behavior pattern through Ruby Ridge, Waco, the OKC bombing, Monicagate, the massive election thefts of 2000 and '04, and this matter of 9/11, I take William Colby's word for it as true when he said, "The CIA owns everyone of any significance in the major media." Yep, apparently, they do.

You probably never even noticed how the FBI agents and others like Sibel Edmonds (translator) and Indira Singh (PTECH) were restrained from talking about what they knew about how the attacks were implemented operationally and technically. You don't find it the least bit odd that at least five FBI supervisors are known to have thwarted investigations by agents that might well have prevented the attacks. You don't think it's anything but fitting and proper that the 9/11 Commission says terror financing is a topic that is of no importance (well, sure, those accused and investigated by Feds for that very thing include G.W. Bush's uncle Jonathan's Riggs bank and Republican strategist Grover Norquist's own Islamic Institute). Meantime, Bush had lawyers claim he was justified in abducting Swiss grannies who innocently wrote a check to an Islamic terror front charity and to electrify the genitals of children of figures only suspected of terror connections. Get this: they're important enough to apprehend and torture, and Osama isn't. That's BushCo's message to the stupid cattle of America. Well, DUH, and BAH!

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Teach the controversy
Posted by: theistfree on Oct 8, 2006 2:06 PM   
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I have noticed that the 911 truth people are now using the same lame tactic that the intelligent design people are using to attack evolution.

They have gone from the idea they can absolutely prove a conspiracy to saying there is some doubt and we need to investigate the doubt. Well sorry there is no doubt of what happened on 9-11. 19 terrorist flew planes into the WTC, Pentagon and the ground in PA. The impact damage and fire brought down the WTC not bombs, that is what is supported by a vast majority of scientist and engineers who have REAL expertise in this stuff. Not some professor who has a degree in criminology and who does not know the first thing about structural engineering who has some weird idea he know what made the WTC collapse.

Same thing is happening with evolution, find yourself a professor with a degree in engineering and if he says evolution could not have happened then cry "see there is a controversy" you must give intelligent design equal billing as a genuine science. Ignore the fact that 98% of scientist with actual expertise in biology see no dispute in evolution much in the same way the REAL experts in structural science see no cruse missiles or thermite bombs.

It's just that tin foil hats have always been popular in the USA.

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Bush Knew?
Posted by: theistfree on Oct 8, 2006 3:37 PM   
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It is obvious Bush knew nothing of the attacks on 911.

What was the first thing you saw of old GWB on 9-11? Not an in-charge capable commander and chief, NO you saw some dumb smuck sitting in a little chair in a school reading child stories! If he in fact KNEW of the pending attack you would have seen a more presidential figure, in the White House looking strong and ready to kick ass.

But that is the problem, Bush should have known, many people were trying to tell him that this sort of thing was likely. But terror was a Clinton thing so he ignored it.

If you want to buy this Bush Knew crap then PLEASE!!! DO NOT call yourself a liberal. You are not helping the cause of getting this useless rodeo clown out of the white house.

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Of Radio-Controlled Presidents and Secret Governments
Posted by: Nuuon on Oct 12, 2006 9:41 AM   
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Teach the controversy?

Hmm. . . This type of ostrich-with-its-head-in-the-ground approach has already been sited by previous posters: You simply blatantly ignored the dozen of examples of unexplained 9/11 "coincidences" and continued to blab the administration line, proving that "debating" your kind is a waste of time.

And the idea that "REAL" experts don't agree with the facts offered by independent 9/11 researchers within the 9/11 Truth Movement is absolutely bogus: Because your "REAL" experts are all employed by private corporations or mainstream universities-- they would not keep their jobs for more than a week if they dared to step off of the plantation you are insist on propping up. Another REAL fact you have chosen to ignore.

And is Bush too stupid to have prior knowledge of 9/11? Yeah, he's pretty stupid-- a true to life example of a radio controlled puppet president: Even columnists who write for COUNTER ("there's no conspiracy") PUNCH admit that Bush can't even hold a press conference without some controller radioing instructions into his ear. Think about that for a moment: A secret government with enough gall to put a radio controlled president in front of the American public. Such people are capable of anything-- Safe in the fact that "liberals" will be polite enough to mention it once and let it pass. Anyone willing to believe the 9'11 stories that come out of the mouth of a radio-controlled president is too afraid to take responsibility for dealing with the implications of 9/11.

Moreover, the fact that Bush sat and did NOTHING upon hearing of the 9/11 attacks is perhaps the best proof that he knew something was coming: He showed no surprise whatsoever and kept on reading to school kids while letting the death scenario play itself out. Did Bush have foreknowledge of ALL of the details of the 9/11 scheme? Of course not: This is called "Plausible Denial," look it up.

And if this is an example of the kind of crap we have to buy into in order to be "real liberals" than WHO THE HELL WANTS TO BE KNOWN AS A LIBERAL??? It's the weak-kneed, live in denial, play-by-the establishment-rules liberal who has helped to keep Bush, the republicrats, and the secret government in business.

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Matt Taibbi Is An Intellectual Coward
Posted by: Nuuon on Nov 3, 2006 1:30 PM   
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Matt Taibbi Is An Intellectual Coward

He got burned on his "911 Truth" column and he didn't even have the courage to provide a categorical response to the many good posts that shredded that column.

Instead he ran back to the issue of the Oklahoma Bombing, and then quickly shut down the postings before he had a chance to be severely burned again.

So I say again: Matt Taibbi Is An Intellectual Coward.

And a journalistic fraud.

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Disinformation expert.
Posted by: Jayno on Nov 5, 2006 8:36 AM   
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Bravo. /clap /clap

Matt Taibbai a profressional in THE USE of disinformation. I will list but a few methods YOU have used in your disinformation article.

1. You used a straw man: Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

2. You used sidetrack opponents method: With name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as "kooks", "right-wing", "liberal", "left-wing", "terrorists", "conspiracy buffs", "radicals", "militia", "racists", "religious fanatics", "sexual deviates", and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

3. You used the question motives method: Twist or amplify any fact which could so taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.

4. You used the play dumb method: No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

5. YOU used the "Prove It!" method: The reality is that negatives can rarely be proven but detractors ignore this, always looking for some other avenue to exploit. "Post all of the degree work right here and we'll see what it says...." goes a common challenge. Of course, regardless of what was posted, the Disinformation Specialist will find some fault, even if it's a spelling error - and then will proceed to make some particular issue out of that. ("See? Those stupid idiots. They can't even spell!")


You are indeed using these methods well. /clap /clap.

I will ask you 1 question only.

Why did world trade center building 7 (47 stories modern steel building) collapse at freefall speed in a perfect straight down manner a few hours (4-5) after the towers fell ?

Just know that corrupted journalists like you have a reserved place in hell.

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.
Martin Luther King

Jayno.

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How to be a good Truther.
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 6, 2006 8:36 AM   
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Conspiracy Theory 101, How to be a 9/11 Truther
Part 1

1. Ignore what we all saw, Hijacked Airliners crashing into the WTC. Ignore the fact people around the Pentagon were close enough to actually see American Airlines markings on the plane as it hit, People who know what a passenger jet looks like and who saw exactly that hit the building, and not just one or two people, no, 45 or so. Ignore the firemen who were at ground zero and who knew the building were going to fall, not from imaginary bombs but from the major fire going on. Ignore the fact the collapse looks nothing like a controlled implosion, the building collapse right at the floors the planes hit, not the bottom but EXACTLY the part of the building that were hit and that had the largest fires. Ignore the firemen who reported the incredible damage done to WTC7, who heard the building creak and moan, watched the sides twist, saw the huge fires burning within. Ignore all this, it will only lead you down the path of reality.. and what fun is that!

2. Now watch some videos on YouTube. YouTube is your friend and all you need to be a good truther. Facts can only hurt you and confuse you. Researching things like the tensile strength of steel exposed to high heat is way to boring.

3. Created a complex scenario of remote controlled planes, super thermite bombs, mysterious evil henchmen sneaking into the buildings to plant bombs. etc. etc.

Be creative here, this does not have to resemble any sort of fact based thinking. Remember the people you will be selling this to are Conspiracy Theorist, they will buy anything, and also remember these guys will in fact pay money for videos and book so long as it re-enforces their delusions, so don't be afraid to cash in.

4. Be More complex, Remember you don't have any real facts for what you are proposing so you need to bury them in bull. Why propose something simple like pulling file out of a building and destroying them, when you can build a super complex scenario of imploding the entire building!! it's much more intriguing to your fan base the conspiracy theorist. If you can works some aliens in there somewhere they love that stuff too. The quantity of your observations are what is important NOT the quality of your thinking.

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How to be a 9/11 Truther Part 2
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 6, 2006 10:09 AM   
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Part 2

1. Build a web site or a blog. Post some quotes. But where do I find some quotes you ask? see number 2

2. Quote Mining: This will be one of your best ways of compiling “Truther facts”. Lets say you find a quote about 9/11 like this from a NY fireman.... “It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other. “

Now just remove the last line and bingo you got a quote you can live with “It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion”

EXTRA CREDIT: can you edit these quotes to make them sound... well... more Truthier.
“And as my eyes traveled up the building, and I was looking at the south tower,somewhere about halfway up, my initial reaction was there was a secondary explosion, and the entire floor area, a ring right around the building blew out. i later realized that the building had started to collapse already and this was the air being compressed and that is the floor that let go.”

or this Pentagon witness.

"It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up,"

3. MAKE STUFF UP. Go ahead no one is checking, least of all your loyal truther fans.

4. Find some “experts”

Get a guy with a Phd to back up your claims. Now experts with real expertise in things like large scale building engineering may be hard to find and due to their knowledge most likely won’t buy your Conspiracy Theory anyway. No Matter any Phd will do just don’t mention your expert on building collapse has a Phd in theology and has not built anything in his life. Software Engineers are very useful for this sort of thing due to the ENGINEER title, just don’t let on he builds computer programs.

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Why did WTC building 7 fall ?
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 7, 2006 9:25 AM   
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Explain this: Why did WTC building 7 fall ?

Well I could point out the numerous eye witnesses who were there that day and saw first hand the 20 story or so gash in the building, the large amounts of fires burning, who could hear the moaning and creaking coming from WTC7.

"So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn't look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn't look good."
Firehouse.com

There are others as well. But why believe them? they were only at the scene, YOU can tell more from a grainy low res video any day.

I could point out pictures that show the building from the heavily damages south side, Notice you will only see pictures of the undamaged north side on truther sites. could all that smoke be from big ass fires?
WTC7 Fire Pictures

Yeah, but there all fake, right?

I could show you a report made by REAL experts not just some slacker sitting on moms couch watching YouTube videos. Watch out this one is long, precise and rather technical and take some brains to read. That is why the truthers avoid it, too hard to understand, you have to explain things in simpleton terms for them to grasp.
NIST Working Hypothesis of WTC7 collapse

But you won't read this stuff, it pokes too many holes in your comfortable simple minded fantasy world. Everything you say is TRUTH and everything that contradicts your "truther facts" is government disinformation.

How convenient for you.

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Why did WTC building 7 fall ?
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 7, 2006 10:11 AM   
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PART 2

I could also point to the idiocy of the entire Conspiracy Theory that the building could have been set-up for a controlled implosion.

Truthers will have you think that blowing up a building is a simple matter of smuggling in some explosives and placing it next to some crucial structural supports. WRONG.

The J.L. Hudson’s Building in my home town of Detroit, Michigan was the tallest building ever razed at 439 ft. 26 stories. It took workers months to "prep" the building for implosion. Beams had to be pre-cut, entire sections of the building had to removed to provide a way to control the collapse.

It took 24 days alone to load the explosives, These had to be set on nearly every floor of Hudsons, You would think someone working at WTC7 would notice there are explosives set in my office! and the beams have been cut!

I saw the Hudsons implosion my self and it was remarkable, the resultant pile was only about two stories tall.

And is it not remarkable that companies who do implosions like Hudsons DO NOT support the truthers claims?

History Channel Implosion Program

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NIST report debunked.
Posted by: Jayno on Nov 7, 2006 8:19 PM   
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This explains everything. I know truth hurts corrupted people. Sorry you cannot escape it.

Truth

Enjoy.

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Why did WTC building 7 fall ?
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 8, 2006 11:30 AM   
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Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule.

Well Yeah, but when a guy walks up to you a says "Dude, They put bombs in all the buildings and flew remote contoured jet planes into them. and hid all the real passengers on secret air bases." You could say "What an interesting Observation, lets study some more" But most rational thinking people will call a spade a spade and tell the nut job to up his meds or see a shrink. You are not helping the delusional by re-enforcing the delusion.

See if it walk like a loony, talks like a loony then what you have on your hand is a loony. If you want to not be call goofy the STOP acting goofy.

Let me help you out here and educate you on what a strawman is. If I say to you because you want to pin 9/11 on Bush THEN you must be sympathetic towards terrorist and want to help them. Or if you accuse me of working for Bush because I think the 9/11 truthers are a bunch of whack jobs. Those would be a strawman, one observation has no validity concerning the other. Even if you did support terrorist or if I worked for Bush, neither would have any bearing on the theory of how WTC7 fell.

My use of the fact that rigging a building for implosions is far to complex for such a thing to have been done to WTC7 without many people noticing it is simply pointing out a giant hole in the implosion conspiracy theory. Unlike a strawman argument it has a direct connection with what we are talking about here. Lesson Over.

>>Yes yes and that certainly means that NO OTHER IMPLOSION companies support the implosion theory.

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Why did WTC building 7 fall ?
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 8, 2006 11:52 AM   
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Yes yes and that certainly means that NO OTHER IMPLOSION companies support the implosion theory.

Then by all means show me one.

And I am referring to a company who actually demolish large scale structures, lets say 15 or 20 stories or so, and they do it with explosives.

Your uncle Joe who tore a wall out doing a remolding project does not count and neither do small time companies who tear down houses. I want to see REAL big time explosive demolition companies.

Maybe some one who belongs to The International Society of Explosives Engineers

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Why did WTC building 7 fall ?
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 8, 2006 12:11 PM   
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So Winston Smith is an expert on such things? as far as I can tell he is an expert at creating 9/11 truther sites.

And what is really remarkable is that between Nov 7, 2006 3:34 PM when you said "I will read your little HYPOTHESIS report and will reply to it." and Nov 7, 2006 8:19 PM when you posted the Winston Smith site as "Truth". You had read all 56 pages of the Nist Report, carefully examined all the facts within, checked them for accuracy, and call it bull.

AND within this time frame you also were able to search for and fine the Winston Smith site, and carefully examined all the facts within it, checked them for accuracy and truthiness. and then declare it TRUTH!!!!!

You must be a genius!

Oh, and in case you don't get the idea of sarcasm. the last line is just that.

If you want to pull a scam at the very least have the sense to wait a day or two to make it look good.

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Intelligent Design?
Posted by: Auntie Dogma on Nov 8, 2006 2:46 PM   
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If it weren't for the obvious irony and creativity of most of these conspiracy theories, I would regard them with deep sadness and embarrassment.

With their stupendous ignorance, obstinate logical errors, and willful factual omissions, these fanciful tales are the 'Intelligent Design' of the left. And just like the actual Intelligent Design theory, there is no point in logical refutation. As history teaches, logic has always been imagination's ugly sister.

Just as those who are captivated by the pretty story of creationism must reject its ugly sister Darwinism and its dowdy evolution babble, so too, the 9/11 buffs must reject the relatively pedestrian fact that 19 guys, with nothing but boxcutters, cold resolve, and a diabolically brilliant idea, perpetrated perhaps the most spectacular crime in history, against the most powerful nation in history.

It is wounded pride that drives these theories, rising from a deep seated shame that our vulnerabilities could be so easily exposed. To those who find themselves shell-shocked by the sight of the gaping hole where the twin symbols of American might once stood, it is a saving grace to believe that an all-powerful secret government cabal executed the attack of 9/11 as part of a broader plan to maintain US military and economic hegemony in the world. To those whose national pride spills over into narcissism, it is decidedly more comforting to be the subjects of skillful, albeit heartless and self-serving masterminds, than it is to be caught phoning it in by a handful of seriously pissed-off, but otherwise ordinary fanatics.

At a dinner party I attended recently, a theorist began to tell his version of 9/11. I found myself coiling like a panther, waiting for the most savory moment to strike. Then I noticed the faces around me. Clearly the other guests were by turns amused, enthralled and mystified. It occurred to me that this was all part of a process of healing. I decided to keep my mouth shut. What good could have come from it? No minds would have been changed by the heated argument that would have surely ensued. At best I would have come off as the buzzkill in the cheap seats who exposes the magician's trick.

Despite my own sense of shame that so many on the left, as well as some of my most intelligent friends drink the conspiracy kool-aid, I console myself with the thought that all of this is, for many of them, a natural phase of denial that will gradually give way to acceptance. One can only hope that this phase is over soon, because there are plenty of real conspiracies out there, more urgent, and more deserving of America's better minds...

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theisfree debunked
Posted by: Jayno on Nov 8, 2006 4:50 PM   
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Theistfree says: Well Yeah, but when a guy walks up to you a says "Dude, They put bombs in all the buildings and flew remote contoured jet planes into them. and hid all the real passengers on secret air bases." You could say "What an interesting Observation, lets study some more" But most rational thinking people will call a spade a spade and tell the nut job to up his meds or see a shrink. You are not helping the delusional by re-enforcing the delusion.

What guy walked up to you and said that ? Did you just create that in your head ? Rational thinkers are not scared to entertain a though that is not their own. Seems like your not a rational thinker at all. Kk thx bye next.

Theisfree says: See if it walk like a loony, talks like a loony then what you have on your hand is a loony. If you want to not be call goofy the STOP acting goofy.

Are you still talking to your imaginery friend ? May I suggest consulting a shrink ?

Theisfree says: Let me help you out here and educate you on what a strawman is. If I say to you because you want to pin 9/11 on Bush THEN you must be sympathetic towards terrorist and want to help them. Or if you accuse me of working for Bush because I think the 9/11 truthers are a bunch of whack jobs. Those would be a strawman, one observation has no validity concerning the other. Even if you did support terrorist or if I worked for Bush, neither would have any bearing on the theory of how WTC7 fell.

Your definition of strawman is weak, this one is much better: Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

Theistfree says: My use of the fact that rigging a building for implosions is far to complex for such a thing to have been done to WTC7 without many people noticing it is simply pointing out a giant hole in the implosion conspiracy theory. Unlike a strawman argument it has a direct connection with what we are talking about here. Lesson Over.

The fact that rigging a building for implosion is too complex to have been done to WTC7 ??? HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA You must be joking right ? It’s not too complex if it was planned months ahead and the corrupted people who worked on it were in control of security in the complex = Marvin Bush. Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. George W Bush’S brother was in control of security. Wow what a coincidence hahahahahhahaa !!!!!

I feel sorry for you…

Liberty without learning is always in peril; learning without liberty is always in vain.
John F. Kennedy

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theistfree debunked.
Posted by: Jayno on Nov 8, 2006 5:15 PM   
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Theistfree says: So Winston Smith is an expert on such things? as far as I can tell he is an expert at creating 9/11 truther sites.

NO NO of course not how can he be an expert when he doesn’t agree with what U think right ? lol


Theistfree says: And what is really remarkable is that between Nov 7, 2006 3:34 PM when you said "I will read your little HYPOTHESIS report and will reply to it." and Nov 7, 2006 8:19 PM when you posted the Winston Smith site as "Truth". You had read all 56 pages of the Nist Report, carefully examined all the facts within, checked them for accuracy, and call it bull.

Reading 56 pages in 3 hours is not remarkable for me at least. Maybe for you it is…

Theistfree says: AND within this time frame you also were able to search for and fine the Winston Smith site, and carefully examined all the facts within it, checked them for accuracy and truthiness. and then declare it TRUTH!!!!!

After I read the HYPOTHESIS presented by NIST I searched for another HYPOTHESIS. It actually took me no more than 2 minutes to find this site lol. In total I spent approx. 4 hours looking at these 2 reports. Yes imo the NIST HYPOTHESIS is wrong for the reasons presented on the site I linked: Truth

Theistfree says: You must be a genius!

Oh, and in case you don't get the idea of sarcasm. the last line is just that.

I think you mistake me for someone who cares about what you think. But hum…compared to you yes I am a genius without a doubt.

Theistfree says: If you want to pull a scam at the very least have the sense to wait a day or two to make it look good

It seems that for a weak minded person like you it takes 2 days to read such short and simple reports. Again I feel sorry for you.

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RE: Intelligent Design?
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 9, 2006 1:37 PM   
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At a dinner party I attended recently, a theorist began to tell his version of 9/11. I found myself coiling like a panther, waiting for the most savory moment to strike.

Tell me at this party the theorist had been a holocaust revisionist or a KKK type racist would you still have refrained from striking?

The truthers are much in the same vain as bigots and neo Nazis. They strive to change the obvious nature of 9/11 to match their political agenda. Truth is not important, the cause is. They will in fact falsely accuse Bush and company of the most heinous crime but also imply hundreds if not thousands of Americans also took part in the planing, execution and cover-up of this crime. Like racist the people are full of hate and have a low regard of most people. Most of the ones I meet personally are real losers with little skills low paying menial jobs, whose only real way to feel important is to latch onto something like the 911 truth movement.

All it takes is an internet connection and a boatload of gullibility. Truthers can sit around and jerk each other off and tell themselves what great aspirants of truth thy are, Yeah Right! Just give my fries and go away Conspiracy Boy.

I would treat a 9/11 truther the same way I treat a Klansmen. Get in their face and demonstrate what clowns they really are, it may not have much effect on their thick skulls but some onlooker may just well get the courage to put blatant stupidity in its place when thy are faced with it.

Now if you want to see a the obnoxious nature of the 9/11 Deniers look at this video clip Dylan Avery the creator of Loose Change having a little laugh at the death of the pilot of flight 77. In the same video you will hear Dylan imply that a worker at the Pentagon but his son on 77 knowing he would die and then conveniently arrange to play golf so that he himself would not be at the Pentagon that day to avoid death.

9/11 Deniers Speak - Part 1/5

Now what can you reasonably say about people like this except the truth, they are lowlife mouth breathing scumbags, no better then the men who lynched blacks and gassed jews.

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Jayno debunked.
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 9, 2006 1:54 PM   
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Hah! Still mad cause I caught you trying to pull a fast one?

Come on, you work the same way all the Conspiracy Theorist I know. When faced with real well formed facts you run off to find a site to try and do the debunking for you. You can't do it yourself cause it would require not only reading the Nist report, but understanding it.

Well I guess I can do the same here is a site the debunks the bunk you posted, and his guy found the photos in the your "TRUTH" site actually proves the opposite of the 9/11 Deniers claims.
World Trade Center 7 South Side Hole

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Jaynos World
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 9, 2006 3:15 PM   
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Jayno:The fact that rigging a building for implosion is too complex to have been done to WTC7 ??? HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA You must be joking right ? It’s not too complex if it was planned months ahead and the corrupted people who worked on it were in control of security in the complex = Marvin Bush. Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. George W Bush’S brother was in control of security. Wow what a coincidence hahahahahhahaa !!!!!

So in this world of yours did Marvin Bush Personally plant the exposives? DiD he the tear out walls to get the thermite charges onto the support beams and fix the walls so workers in WTC7 did not see the demolition charges? Maybe everyone who worked in the building was in on the big plot.

So ALL the security guards knew what was going on and allowed it to happen? Not one said "hey.. you know this is not good... maybe I should pick up a phone and tell someone like the news that there are black ops guys planting bombs in WTC7 and the twin towers" "NO.. maybe I should keep my mouth shut... Don't want to blow my Christmas bonus"

Are you saying the all the employees of Securacom got memos telling them to keep quiet about the "Big 9/11 Project"

Exactly how many people are involved in this Conspiracy Theory of yours. And I take it they all are fiendishly evil and would sit back and watch thousands die?

See you watch too many movies, Diabolical Dr Evils with cadres of henchmen are the lore of fantasy and not the real world, you can't seem to keep the two straight.

Yeah you should feel sorry for me I have to live in the REAL world where logic and reason prevail. Oh how I wish I could just pull stuff out of my ass to make a point, but I will accede that to an expert like you.

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theistfree disinformation expert
Posted by: Jayno on Nov 10, 2006 4:35 PM   
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theistfree says:The truthers are much in the same vain as bigots and neo Nazis. They strive to change the obvious nature of 9/11 to match their political agenda. Truth is not important, the cause is. They will in fact falsely accuse Bush and company of the most heinous crime but also imply hundreds if not thousands of Americans also took part in the planing, execution and cover-up of this crime. Like racist the people are full of hate and have a low regard of most people. Most of the ones I meet personally are real losers with little skills low paying menial jobs, whose only real way to feel important is to latch onto something like the 911 truth movement.

Pure disinformation not focusing on 9/11 facts. Avoiding discussing facts is their goal. This is the method used by the corrupted trash like theistfree:

Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as "kooks", "right-wing", "liberal", "left-wing", "terrorists", "conspiracy buffs", "radicals", "militia", "racists", "religious fanatics", "sexual deviates", and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

Let'S continue to observe this corruption further.

theistfree says: All it takes is an internet connection and a boatload of gullibility. Truthers can sit around and jerk each other off and tell themselves what great aspirants of truth thy are, Yeah Right! Just give my fries and go away Conspiracy Boy.

Again this is typical disinfo. Absolutely nothing intelligent coming out of this corrupted person. Avoiding any discussion of facts of course. Observe how he attempts to ridicule the people who question the 'official' story.

theistfree says: I would treat a 9/11 truther the same way I treat a Klansmen. Get in their face and demonstrate what clowns they really are, it may not have much effect on their thick skulls but some onlooker may just well get the courage to put blatant stupidity in its place when thy are faced with it.

This is clearly hate speech. Trying to raise tensions between people of different opinions. This corrupted person is really desperate, comparing people who attempt to understand 9/11 to members of KKK.

Let's continue to analyse the corruption of theistfree.

theisfree says: Now if you want to see a the obnoxious nature of the 9/11 Deniers look at this video clip Dylan Avery the creator of Loose Change having a little laugh at the death of the pilot of flight 77. In the same video you will hear Dylan imply that a worker at the Pentagon but his son on 77 knowing he would die and then conveniently arrange to play golf so that he himself would not be at the Pentagon that day to avoid death.

Classic desinformation method: Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

Again avoiding facts about why the buildings collapsed. I know it's hard to believe but this corrupted theistfree has reached the lowest level a human can get to.

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theistfree is evil.
Posted by: Jayno on Nov 10, 2006 4:38 PM   
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theistfree says:Now what can you reasonably say about people like this except the truth, they are lowlife mouth breathing scumbags, no better then the men who lynched blacks and gassed jews.

Comparing people who are doubting the 'official' s tory of what happened on 9/11 to murderers. This is actually a good example of someone who try's to scare people into submission about keeping their opinions to themselves and never question anything. The lowest form of existence right infront of you provided by this soulless theistfree.

I think everyone gets the point now. I will no longer waste my time responding to his garbage.

Never stop analysing 9/11 events. Never stop using your critical thinking and don't accept everything your government tells you as truth. Never stop researching important issues by yourselves. This is my advice to everyone.

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Jayno runs
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 10, 2006 6:40 PM   
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AHH. Now I got you mad. Poor boy

You will say nothing when your fellow truthers will beat up Matt because he had the utter nerve to point out the silly nature of the 9/11 truth movement. But when I dish it out I am evil.

And I did it by simply pointing out a video where the high priest of the truther movement hangs himself with his own callous hateful insinuation of his fellow man. Noticed you did not say anything about his actions, did you?

I pointed out the clearly illogical character of your top heavy uber conspiracy theory where you imply hundred of you fellow American would engage in mass murder and you call me the bad guy, get real.

I do it with little cutting humor. and you call me soulless.

And notice you do nothing but post and repost the same lame stuff, Sidetrack this.... disinformation that..... and you still have not got the strawman analogy right. Come up with some original thoughts once in a while, will ya. You do have the Conspiracy Theorist speak down pat I will say that for you.

Don't kid yourself that this is about you, you appear to far gone for that, I figure there is someone who will read this exchange ad say "You know that theistfree does have a point, 9/11 truthers are rather silly and hateful". And it come from a man who proudly calls himself a progressive liberal, an Atheist freethinking lover of the power of logic and science.

OK so run off. If your ideas can't hold up under fire maybe there is nothing to them.

I will post some more, How to be a good 9/11 truther lessons soon.

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How to be a good Truther.
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 14, 2006 2:24 PM   
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Part 3
1. PICTURE FUN: Never show pictures that don’t show exactly what you want. Picture of the towers with obvious major fires inside may give the impression that the cause of the collapse were the fires, avoid these at all cost. There are plenty of pictures that look less ominous use those.

If photos show airplane parts strewn about find one without those parts and mockingly exclaim “Dude, where is the plane?”.

Once you have some pictures guide the viewer to see what YOU want them to see, if you see dust being blown out a window be sure to call it an explosion. NEVER EVER admit it could just be dust. Use words like explosive, charge, detonation as much as possible, remember the average truthers are simple in their thought processes and if you repeat it enough they will believe it.

If you see steel that has been cut with a torch during clean-up operations call it evidence of a thermite explosive cutting charge. Never show a worker using a torch, it may throw doubt on the whole thermite thing.

Never show picture of the overall devastation, it tends to show the buildings didn’t fall in a controlled manner. Never show picture of 30 West Broadway and it’s damage, you don’t want WTC7 to look anything but a controlled implosion into its footprint.

The above applies to videos as well but with video you can be more creative. Use ominous militaristic music, and inter disperse picture of the people you want to pin 9/11 on, Bush and Cheney if you are one of the lefties and Jews if you are one of our more anti-Semitic brethren. Don’t forget to post to YouTube, you may just be the next Loose Change phenomenon.

All the Truthiness That's Fit to Print.

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Don't listen to me. I'm just a conspiracy nut.
Posted by: digapony on Nov 23, 2006 1:30 PM   
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There is an easy way for all of the so-called "conspiracy theories" to be dispelled in the minds of Americans. Simply convene legitimate congressional hearings in order to uncover the actual truth. Subpaeona those officials involved, up to and including Bush and Cheney, and rigorously cross-examine them under oath. Find worthy Congresspeople to head the hearings, unlike the shills involved with the thoroughly discredited 911 Commission. (Read David Ray Griffin's, "The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions) While it is true that the vast majority of Congress is utterly beneath contempt, there are a few individuals of integrity left in the House on both sides of the aisle (Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich come to mind--unfortunately Cynthia McKinney's reelection campaign failed due to a smear campaign, thank you Democrat establishment)

Perhaps the reason why the establishment is so afraid of a real investigation is the same reason why they destroyed/concealed so much evidence of the crime, such as carting away the steel girders under heavy surveillance to be destroyed, destroying many of the Norad tapes, placing gag orders on witnesses, removing all of the tapes of the Pentagon attack, etc.

Oh, never mind. I'm just a conspiracy nut. 19 hack terrorists (the supposed pilots were not even competent to effectively land a single engine aircraft) were brilliantly used by Osama from a cave in Afghanistan in a coordinated attack that undermined some of the most heavily defended airspace in the world. Not only once, mind you, but three times!

You can trust these guys running the country. After all, despite all of their supposed incompetance, they completely solved the crime of the century after only several days and without even a trial! Perry Mason, eat your heart out. They would never lie to us about anything. The Downing Street Memo doesn't prove anything, for example. Their intelligence sources told them Saddam had WMDs. Unfortunately, the intelligence was simply "inaccurate". Just another example of the government's incompetance, I suppose.

I don't pretend to know what actually happened, so please don't claim that I subscribe to "conspiracy theories" such as alien lizard-men, illuminati control of the world, etc. I simply want the truth about an event that has been used to justify endless war and a massive civil-liberties crackdown. Sorry for the heresy. By the way, the 19 hijackers and Osama explaination is a conspiracy theory, as well, so perhaps there is some validity in the idea that not everthing in history happens by coincidence.

So, all of you phony lefties out there, keep sucking your thumbs and your bongs. Shut off your brains and place your faith in wise elders, such as Noam Chomsky and Rolling Stone hack writers. Never mind that their paychecks come from the corporations and their foundation fronts.

All that counts is the culture war, after all. Let's all sit around sipping lattes and prove to each other with our John Kerry bumper stickers how much more caring, sophisticated, and cool we are than the benighted masses with their yellow ribbons and pickup trucks.

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Don't listen to me. I'm just a conspiracy nut.
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 24, 2006 8:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the conspiracy theorist only want a ..TRUTH ... that matches their conspiracy theory, nothing else will do. As a Liberal atheist I sure don’t like witch hunts especially when it’s liberals holding the fagots and torches.

Now if you want to convene a commission on the failures of Bush to take the very real threat of Al Qaeda seriously, you may have a point. But to spend time and money on looking at Holographic planes, thermite bomb, and other populous conspiracy theorist ideas, well that’s just goofy.

David Ray Griffin... the theologian? that David Ray Griffin? I thought maybe you had found a David Ray Griffin who had some expertise in building an demolition of large structures like the WTC. Perhaps if we were discussing comparative religion his views would hold some weight. See I would not take the views of Zdenek P. Bazant and Mathieu Verdure on religion all that seriously, but on the collapse of the WTC they do have the proper expertise. Their paper, Mechanics of Progressive Collapse is rather technical and not as compelling as the big conspiracy books, they show the calculations and figures to back up their clams and put it out to be reviewed by others for accuracy. Sorry if real science has a way of killing the buzz of the 9/11 truthers, but that’s what science does.

You state evidence was destroyed, OK where is your evidence for this claim? Just because you read something on a conspiracy theorist site does not make it true and conspiracy theorist site do a very poor job of backing up the statements they make with reference to the proof of the claim.

The terrorist did not have to do the hard part of flying,which is taking off and landing, so in that regard they were poor pilots, but as many pilots have pointed out to steer a 757 from point A to B is simple with the aid of auto pilot, Hanjour had to make a ratter sloppy 180 because he was too high the first time and not a good enough pilot to make a sharp dive into the Pentagon. A low approach gave him time to aim and hit his tarket.

Many conspiracy theorist sites attribute quotes on the flying skills of Khalid Al-Midhar and Salem Al-Hazmi to the actual 4 terrorist pilots. Al-Midhar and Hazmi did do some basic training but were too unskilled and were then demoted to being muscle on the planes, so any assessment of their abilities seems irrelevant. the other 4 had all the skill they need to get the job done. But they were not white Westerners and we all know THOSE people can’t fly, I smell a little bigotry.

Conspiracy theories like 9/11 have become an intellectual virus. They are attractive because they offer a simple explanation for complicated events, no thinking is invloved. The belief that the world really is orderly ie. a small cabal runs the world A feeling of elitism that they are in the know and that others are hopeless sheeple. A conspiritorial view of history is the hallmark of a weak mind.

Now that we have republicans on the run we sure don’t need the 9/11 Truth Movement giving ammo to the conservative movment.

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labels, credentials, and name-calliing (part one)
Posted by: digapony on Nov 27, 2006 11:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, why should it impress me that you consider yourself to be a "liberal atheist", theistfree? Are we all supposed to give you a pat on the back! Do you think that establishing such "credentials" somehow strengthens your arguments? How is it relevant to the issue of 911? Should it really matter to anyone looking into this issue if you consider yourself an anarchist Buddhist, a moderate Christian, a libertarian agnostic, a conservative Hindu, etc.?

Apparently, labels and "credentials" are far more important to you than ideas and debate. You seem to have an awful lot of preconceptions about those whom society has apparently deemed to label as "conspiracy theorists". You lump them all together as people who should be reviled and ridiculed. In your words, "A conspiritorial view of history is the hallmark of a week mind".(hmmm...are they really YOUR words, or just an empty phrase we've all heard before that you insist on parroting).

Since you insist on endlessly repeating the phrase "conspiracy theorist", I think it is important to analyze and define the terminology, "conspiracy theorist". The term "conspiracy" means the planning, with an intent to execute, a secret plot (usually the commission of an illegal or illicit act) by two or more individuals. This term certainly does apply to the events of 911 if a group within the government was responsible. However, "conspiracy" also applies to the plot if it really was conceived and carried out by Osama and his 19 terrorist footsoldiers. The term "theory", used in this context, suggests an explaination which is unproven. Here again, both the official government story and any other explainations about 911 fall into the catagory of a "theory".

The official theory was presented several days after September eleventh. Apparently, the administration had all the proof it needed, long before the sacrosanct 911 Commission ever laid pen to paper, to lead us into war, create the Department of Homeland Security, and ram the "Patriot" Act through Congress.

Perhaps you feel that the administration had all the proof it needed for its explaination of the events to be considered a fact rather than a theory. I, and a lot of other thoughtful people, happen to disagree.

Since it adds no insight to the debate, besides emphasizing the idea that only YOUR version of the events of 911 has any validity, why use it? In essence, it is a type of ad hominem attack....simple name calling. It's a way of applying social pressure to shut people up without having to offer proof, or logical support, to your own arguments.

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labels, credentials, and name-calliing (part two)
Posted by: digapony on Nov 28, 2006 12:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When evaluating his ideas, why should I care whether David Ray Griffin is a theologian. (Once again, we're back to worrying about labels and credentials, of which you are so inordinately concerned). Why not judge his work on its own merit?

If you had actually read David Ray Griffins work, The 911 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, you would understand that it has nothing to do with theories of any kind about the event. Dr. Griffin simply analyzes, in a meticulous and scholarly way, the inconsistancies and omissions in the official 911 Commission Report. It is simply factual information. There is nothing speculative about it. Why in the world does the fact that he is a theologian discredit his work?

Please don't insinuate that I, or most other, 911 skeptics are somehow racist. I said NOTHING to that effect. (In your words, "...any assessment of (the terrorists) abilities seems irrelevant. the other 4 had all the skill they need to get the job done. But they were not white Westerners and we all know THOSE people can’t fly, I smell a little bigotry. The REAL bigots are those who want to blame Arabs and/or Muslims for this event without any real proof. The neocons had been talking about the need for a "clash of civilizations" between Arabs/Muslims and the West, long before 9/11, in order to advance their war-mongering, hateful, anti-freedom, agenda. It is inarguable that 9/11 has been used (in the words of PNAC's "Rebuilding America's Defenses" document) as "...a catalyzing event...(to generate public support for war)..., such as a new Pearl Harbor...".

By the way, it's a red herring to state that, "...The terrorist did not have to do the hard part of flying,which is taking off and landing, so in that regard they were poor pilots, but as many pilots have pointed out to steer a 757 from point A to B is simple with the aid of auto pilot..." No, the pilots of the planes didn't need to possess the skill to land or take off. SO WHAT! Why is this important? The alleged pilots did require the skill to direct the planes directly into very, very small targets. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the use of autopilot. In the case of the Pentagon attack, the pilot would have had to have used highly complex manuevers, as well as evade missile defenses. Hmmm...why is it that the Pentagon's military defenses were never activated.

I could go on and on about the logical fallacies evident in your arguments, but, to be honest, I'm getting bored of it. Yes, evidence was destroyed. We all saw it with our own eyes when the rubble from the towers was "cleaned up". Operation Northwoods was a real, top-secret pentagon plan that discusses in detail the proposed commandeering of planes by remote-control to be destroyed and blamed on Fidel Castro. It actually reached the desk of J.F.K.! The U.S. government (read C.I.A., Pentagon, etc.) has routinely conspired to bring down governments and thwart opposition movements both throughout the world and here at home. Cointelpro, Operation Ajax, Operation Condor, Operation Gladio, etc., etc.! This is documented FACT. Elements within the government are capable of planning and carrying out ugly conspiracies quite nicely, thank you.

You are obviously a true believer. If that makes you feel a sense of belonging, so be it.

Group identity seems very important to you. Keep on cheering for the "blue (state)" team of "compassionate" Democrats, led by Pelosi and Reed, to fight the so-called "conservative" movement of evil Republicans. Rah! Rah! Rah! Don't look too closely or you will find that, when you get past all of the rhetoric, their policies on the war, civil-liberties, etc. (when it comes to anything important, that is) are exactly the same as the Republicans. Could it be because they are bought off by the same exact corporations?

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labels, credentials, and name-calliing
Posted by: theistfree on Nov 30, 2006 8:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe David Ray Griffin does not understand why the buildings fell the way they did because he has little knowledge in the forces involved in the airplane impacts and the resulting fires. He doesn't seem to comprehend the kinetic energy stored in large structures like the WTC. Take this quote from him... "if these huge buildings had toppled over, they would have caused enormous death and destruction. But they came straight down". Well DUH.... He does not understand that it is impossible for structures that big to fall over, Now maybe it’s because I read a lot of science stuff and understand this concept better then he does, As many structural engineers have pointed out, what you saw on 9/11 is EXACTLY how a building of the size would fall if it suffered a fire induced structural failure. They fall down.

There are plenty of studies as to the mechanics of how the buildings failed and the only ones that contradict the accepted facts are by people like Griffin who credentials on the subject suck. Notice NO major large scale builder or explosive demolition companies support the conspiracy theorist. But i guess you are the type who gets advice on medical question from an auto mechanic?

Your observation on the skills of the terrorist pilots is typical of a 9/11 truther, Now.. I can understand why you would not know that modern autopilots using GPS can bring a jet liner right to the edge of a runway, it's testimony as to how accurate the systems are, hell many cars have GPS navigation system that will get you to the doorstep of many addresses. It's just a matter of programing in the right coordinates.

BUT This is the good part!!! You ask this supposedly smoking gun question on the Pentagon missile batteries!!!! Get this. You read a conspiracy theory site and blindly buy the observation hook line and sinker, never asking the next logical question that any critical thinker would ask..... Does the Pentagon indeed have such missile batteries?????

You don't have to look too far to find the answer.... NO.

The idea that the Pentagon should have been defended by missile batteries was first proposed by French author Theirry Meyssan. Only problem is that there are NO missile batteries at the Pentagon. It was only after 9/11 the idea of putting air defense systems around Washington was proposed. There are several simple reasons for this, one is that the Pentagon is right on the flight path of Reagan National Airport, Plane fly close and low by the building all the time. I can explain the other reasons these imaginary missiles won't work if you like.

And here is a better one ....... "We all saw it with our own eyes when the rubble from the towers was "cleaned up" WELL DUH AGAIN! It's F#*king rubble! That's what you do with rubble, you don't let it sit around because some moron saw a YouTube video and now fancies himself an amateur 9/11 investigator.

I make a point of tell people i am a liberal because i want to defuse the notion that all progressive are part of the loony left. You know the type.. loosers who can't or won't do anything but sit around and complain how there life sucks because .."The Man"... is keeping them down. Why can't i get anything better then a job at Starbucks? I know it's all Bushes fault! Along come the Pied Pipper conspiracy theorist and you dimblubs lemmings follow like nice little radical sheep. You buy the books and DVDs, get yourself a "911 Was an Inside Job" t-shirt and spout all the characteristic blather about JFK, CIA, FBI and UFOs. These people would be funny except for the fact they are accusing hundreds of their fellow Americans of murder and letting the real culprits off the hook.

Count me out i am a THINKING liberal and I WILL point out the stupidity of liberal ideas as fast as I will conservative ideas. That's just being fair.

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