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Former Bush Administration Lawyer Still Flacking for Torture

By Greg Grandin, AlterNet. Posted September 21, 2006.


John Yoo, the law professor who helped draft the infamous "torture memo," is still defending Bush's policies even though the rest of us have long lost patience.

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On Sunday, the New York Times ran an op-ed by John Yoo, the Berkeley law professor who, while working in the Justice Department, wrote a memo justifying torture. Even after the Abu Ghraib photos broke in the press, Yoo defended his position, telling one interviewer that Congress didn't have the power to -- wait for the metaphor -- "tie the president's hands."

Torture is in the news again, giving Yoo an opportunity to make his case once more. And just as the White House has worked hard in recent weeks to depict the occupation of Iraq as but a single battle in a larger "struggle for civilization," Yoo now believes that the right to torture -- or as he put it in the New York Times, interrogate "harshly" -- is just one front in a larger crusade.

Bush needs to torture people, Yoo believes, not to extract intelligence but to "reinvigorate the presidency." It takes a subtle legal mind to understand what water-boarding or sleep-deprivation has to do with Bush's other power grabs -- not just claiming the right to imprison without bringing formal charges or to engage in warrantless wiretaps, but to reclassify government documents made public by previous administrations, refuse to tell Americans what advice Enron and the oil industry gave to his energy task force, and issue hundreds of signing statements that empowered him with the right not to enforce laws that have absolutely nothing to do with national security. But professor Yoo sees the bigger picture. They are all moves in a larger fight to restore balance to the three branches of government, to roll back the "supremacy" assumed by the Congress and the judiciary in the wake of Vietnam and Watergate.

We've heard this before, most notably from Dick Cheney, who believes that the greatest achievement of his administration was not the overthrow of the Taliban or Saddam Hussein, not even the tax breaks bestowed on the rich, but the "restoration" of the "power and authority of the president" since the "low point" of the late 1970s, when Congress and the courts either passed or ruled on measures that sought to regulate the imperial presidency. In his op-ed, Yoo ticks off a number of insolent laws passed by Congress in the 1970s that have long been the bête noire of neocons, including the War Powers Resolution and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

It is not, then, the libidinous 1960s that so repulses conservatives but rather the regulatory 1970s. But the kind of new Right Revisionism offered up by tenured radicals such as Yoo is fallacious, driven by either ignorance or a willful manipulation of the facts.

Take, for example, Yoo's extraordinary assertion that Congress attempted to leash the presidency not because of the disaster that was Vietnam or the crimes of Watergate but because during the 1970s "we had no serious national security threats to United States soil." This would be news to the first generation of neocons who in the 1970s manned the barricades in any one of the ever-metastasizing policy organizations -- Coalition for a Democratic Majority, the Committee for the Free World, Committee to Maintain a Prudent Defense Policy (which introduced the young Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz to venerable Cold War warriors such as Dean Acheson and Paul Nitze) and, of course, the Committee on the Present Danger, designed to warn America of, well, the ever-present danger.


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Greg Grandin teaches Latin American history at New York University and is the author of a number of books, including the just published Empire's Workshop: Latin America, the United States, and the Rise of the New Imperialism.

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crazy
Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 21, 2006 12:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yoo, you're driving me crazy with all your stupid activities. The smartest thing you can do, Yoo, is to kick Cheney's ass.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: crazy Posted by: willymack
UnAmerican
Posted by: DanYHKim on Sep 21, 2006 3:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I think back on my childhood education, I recall that the presence of checks and balances was deemed essential to our American government. The structural restraints on the three branches was said to be fundamental, according to my teachers.

I do not believe that I had had particularly "political" teachers in school. The lesson seemed to be part of the curriculum.

I am mystified. The sentiments and theories professed by this administration, Dr. Yoo, and those parts of the public who vigorously support them are clearly un-American. They are more consistent with the ideals of National Socialism. Is there something fundamental in the human psyche that makes tyrrany seem more desirable than freedom?

My democratic sensibilities recoiled at the words in Dr. Yoo's editorial in the Times. His indifference to the guiding principles of our constitution and our way of life; as well as his disregard for the historical lessons of the 20th century surely cannot be the result of ignorance. He is a professor at one of our premier universities!

If I were to attempt to write such words, much less submit them for public reading in a national newspaper, I would be so repulsed as to become physically ill during the writing. I feel love and gratitude to this country for the priviledges I enjoy, all undeserving.

Is he from another planet? Is he ill? Has he suffered a blow to the head?

I can't understand this at all!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: UnAmerican Posted by: tlees2
These people...
Posted by: adp3d on Sep 21, 2006 4:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...ought to be "renditioned", dropped naked in the Afgan desert in the middle of Taliban country and see how they would survive. Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Condi, Alberto and Prof. Yoo too!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Yoo must be a pariah on the Berkeley campus
Posted by: katinmn on Sep 21, 2006 4:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One would hope so, anyway.

Yoo has earned his ticket to Nuremberg, too. We won't forget.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» You guys are brilliant! Posted by: Rawfle
» RE: You guys are brilliant! Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: You guys are brilliant! Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: You guys are brilliant! Posted by: outsidea
» RE: To learn more Posted by: Lincoln fan
Misses the real battle.
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Sep 21, 2006 4:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that Mr. Grandin misses the point of the battle. He frames it as a battle between the Executive and Legislative branches of the government. I think that it's a battle between the corporate establishment and the people. They are stealing a march on us. They are fighting the next battle while we're still fighting this one.

As I see it they've already bought both political parties with campaign contributions and lavish lobying. They know that sooner or later the general public will wise up to the fact that neither of our parties represent us. We will rise up and take control of the parties and the government by one means or another.

When that day comes they'll need the strong Executive branch to fight the people's Congress. They are already fighting the next battle because they know that sooner or later they'll lose this one. We have to win this battle to make at least one of the parties represent us before we can win the next one. That's why it's important to win today. It can be done. We can force both parties to compete for our votes by pledging to support our issues before this election.

Now is the time to take control of both parties, to break the corporate hold. Join The Lincoln Initiative. Make "government of the people, by the people, and for the people a reality". It costs nothing and takes five minutes of your time. Do it now. Time is running out; 2008 may be too late.
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.

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» Target rich environment Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: ???????? Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: ???????? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Something makes sense! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Those damn computers Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Those damn computers Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Those damn computers Posted by: Conservasaurus
Send him back to North Korea
Posted by: ng1944 on Sep 21, 2006 5:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The best thing we can do,
send this mo..r fu...r back to North Korea.
Or better, connect couple of electrical wires to his testicals,
and in five minutes hil will tell You,
that hi is Working for Bin Laden, and came to
America to destroy this country and this Democracy

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

A taste of one's own medicine.
Posted by: packofwolves on Sep 21, 2006 6:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we're lucky, Bush and his cronies will be arrested as the war criminals they are, tried and convicted in a country that condones the torture they support, and then get a taste of their own medicine.

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» RE: A taste of one's own medicine. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: A taste of one's own medicine. Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: A taste of one's own medicine. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: A taste of one's own medicine. Posted by: Conservasaurus
Five Years........to bring America DOWN.....
Posted by: picket on Sep 21, 2006 6:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks NeoCONS.......
Put our grandfathers in JAIL....That is the American Dream !!!! Thank you Willie Nelson.
"America the Beautiful " Tribute to Heroes

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RnEBAzMI7-k

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If this is "Proggressive" thinking, you guys are in trouble
Posted by: Conservasaurus on Sep 21, 2006 6:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, if the writer wasn’t such a stark anti Bush supporter this article a could have had some merit. There is no balance to this, just anti Bush, but hey, if this were a balanced article, the readers would have gone mad, like on the article debunking the 9-11 conspiracy theory..*l*

Bringing up Abu Ghraib photos as if these were hardcore torture is only there to remind the liberal reader of Arab outrage to those shocking photos but fails to mention it is nothing in comparison to beheaded Americans. (seems that Islamic terrorists feel they can inflict what ever inhumane torture they want on anyone but don't dare utter a negative word against them or worse yet, have a women guard dominate them! Why don't liberals get outraged over beheadings???

Why didn’t the writer refer to those incidents of torture and say American methods are nothing like what these Islamic fanatics do. American “torture” methods pale compared to what Iraqi’s are doing to each other.. gouging eyes out, acid marks etc.. etc.. sleep deprivation seems humane now!

This comment “ they offer a culture of sadism, one that would condone torture so Bush doesn't have to tell us who influenced his energy policy “ – So Bush tortures people so he doesn’t have to tell us who influenced his energy policy???.. really? And the proof is???????

Many of these remarks are taken out of context and after Moore’s garbage of "out of context" highly edited BS, I question anything written like this..

With the increase in Bushes approval ratings I wonder if Americans (lets say the silent majority- love that phrase) are waking up as we get closer to election time to see overall what Bush/conservatives is trying to do is protect us.

I'm hoping Chavez ranting will sound remarkably like Progressive/liberal ranting and unite the country in those efforts.

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» Does this mean we can't be friends! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Going out on a limb here.. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Going out on a limb here.. Posted by: surfreality
» RE: Going out on a limb here.. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Going out on a limb here.. Posted by: surfreality
» RE: Going out on a limb here.. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Going out on a limb here.. Posted by: Jamboree
Most shocking
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Sep 21, 2006 6:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most shocking thing to me is that there is debate about about torture in the US. It's bad enough that civilized people kill each other but that's unavoidable in a kill or be killed situation. But IMHO torture is inexcusable under any circumstances.
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Most shocking Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Most shocking Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Most shocking Posted by: badkitty
» RE: Most shocking Posted by: Lauren
My fear is they will "enjoy" it. They certainly like viewing the videos...
Posted by: Prophit on Sep 21, 2006 6:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.... of the torture. These are either practicing alcoholics or drug addicts (and I suspect sexaholics as well) and why anyone expected anything different I will never understand. Mentally ill people like Bush and "shoot em in the face" Cheney can't be expected to act like real people. They aren't.... they are lizards. LOL

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Reserve a cell in Leavenworth for Yoo
Posted by: LeftWright on Sep 21, 2006 7:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Along with those for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Myers, Wolfowitz .........

Actually, we should plan on building a new prison just for the corrupt American elites tried and convicted for their complicity in the crimes of the 911 era.

Unless and until we reform our electoral process, remove the plutocracy from power and restore true American democracy we can only expect more criminal and disastrous "leadership" from our "elites".

Peaceful means must be pursued to this end as violence only plays into the hands of those presently controlling the U.S.

Demand a verifiable paper trail in all elections.

Demand that all eligible voters be allowed to vote in a prompt and timely manner.

Demand answers to all the unanswered questions regarding the events surrounding 911.

The truth shall set you free. Love is the only way forward.

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» Ahmadinajad - man of Peace???..*lol* Posted by: Conservasaurus
» So...? Posted by: mjabele
» RE: So...? Posted by: Conservasaurus
Hardly unamerican.
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Sep 21, 2006 7:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the beginning of European immigration to the new world Mexican American war to operation ajax to the current illegal war on Iraq, the American timeline for attrocities is almost continuous but has really ratcheted up for the long war which only serves the interests of the elite in the transnational banking, corporation and military industrialists as it always had. These people have never been held accountable for anything and never will. A nation that believes in their "Manifest Destiny" has worked covertly or overtly to take resources and wealth from other countries and pay off corrupt leaders or create their own, especially since the National Security Act. Even those conspiricies (more than one person acting illegally) that have been found out and high ranking officials found guilty such as the Iran-Contra Conspiracy (scandel is a euphemism to lessen the impact), have been pardoned. The congress and senate are just as corrupt and are either pro-war (just no this war for some), militaristic (98-0 vote by the senate), pro-slaughter (410-8 for Israel's actions on Lebanon), and anti-constitution/bill of rights/independence (realID Act, Patriot Act). Meanwhile, the SEC and FCC are allowing the concentration of power into an ever smaller group of more powerful corporations in Media, Banking, IT... All three branches of power are failures.

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» RE: Hardly unamerican. Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Hardly unamerican. Posted by: badkitty
» RE: Hardly unamerican. Posted by: Lauren
» OOOps - a mistake! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Drug War Posted by: Conservasaurus
Tell John Yoo What You Think of His Disastrous Advice
Posted by: pubradiocat on Sep 21, 2006 11:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have written to this neocon slime several times. Tell him what you think. His e-mail address is right on the Berkeley website:

yoo@law.berkeley.edu

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The real reason Rumsfeld, Cambone, Gonzales, Yoo and Cheney want to torture
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Sep 21, 2006 1:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has very little to do with obtaining information, since all experts agree that people wil say anything and invent any story under torture in order to make the pain stop.

However, there are two uses that these sick pychos have for torture - one is the extraction of confessions for use in secret military tribunals - "subject confessed to being a member of Al Queda, subject confessed to attending training camps in Afghanistan, subject confessed to plotting terror attacks in the USA" - that makes for good press, especially if Bush&Co. can use the 'information' to declare a new terror alert in the US media - be afraid! This is classic 'politics of fear' that many dictatorial regimes have used to keep their populations in line.

The other reason they want to be able to torture with impunity has to do with the control of foreign populations under Rumsfeld's 'shock and awe' rubric, which also includes supporting death squads and CIA-contracted torture chambers in 'target countries'. Here the idea is to terrrify the population into submission using Soviet-style random sweeps - go and pick up a group of men, torture them 'just in case they know something', and then shoot them and dump their bodies in the community neighborhoods as a warning for anyone who might be thinking of rebelling against their corrupt US-paid dictator.

That's the mentality of this neocon administration; that was their Central American strategy in the 1980s, and now we are are seeing it played out by the same actors (John Negroponte , Otto Reich and friends). It has nothing to do with intelligence, and everything to do with suppression of political dissent.

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Juan Santos
Posted by: rwa on Sep 21, 2006 2:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Part 1

" The headlines tell the tale:


From the Washington Post: “Torture Is Torture”


From the Boston Globe: “Rebelling against torture and Bush”


From Fox News: “Bush Faces Election Year Revolt in Own Party”


From Legal News Television: “Bush Fears War Crimes Prosecution”



The President is naked: He is no longer a “wartime president”; he’s now the Torture President.



Officials in the Bush White House could be charged with war crimes.



So they were warned by then -- White House Counsel Alberto Gonzalez after they launched their war against Afghanistan, according to documents obtained by Newsweek last Spring. Gonzalez warned that violations of the War Crimes Act can be punished severely -- including by death, and that it was “difficult to predict with confidence” how a future Justice Department might apply the law.



Special focus was placed on language in the Geneva Conventions that condemns "outrages upon personal dignity" and "inhuman treatment" of prisoners. These crimes were "undefined," according to Gonzalez, the same plea we hear today from President Bush.



Warning the administration of its potential culpability, Gonzalez urged the President, to, in effect, bluff it out. He wrote, "Your determination would create a reasonable basis in law that (the War Crimes Act) does not apply which would provide a solid defense to any future prosecution."



A series of Administration torture memos have been made public, memos vetted by Gonzalez, lawyers at the National Security Council and staffers for Vice President Dick Cheney. They were meant to provide the regime with legal cover for state-approved torture and held that Bush, as Commander-in-Chief, was above the law.



According to a Justice Department memo on August 1, 2002, the administration’s “ban on torture is limited to only the most extreme forms of physical and mental harm" -- actions that might cause "death or organ failure." Anything “less,” the regime defined as mere “abuse.”



“Abuse” would seem to include these techniques used against detainees in Iraq, according to an FBI memo released by the ACLU: “strangulation, beatings, [and] placement of lit cigarettes into the detainees ear openings."



In a February 2002 letter, Bush took the matter of torture on himself: "I accept the legal conclusion of the Attorney General and the Department of Justice that I have the authority to suspend Geneva (conventions) as between the United States and Afghanistan. I reserve the right to exercise this authority in this or future conflicts."



That defense evaporated with the recent Supreme Court decision in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, which held that the US is bound by the letter of the Geneva Conventions.



The administration, facing the reality of potential prosecution as war criminals, is increasingly desperate.



The GOP is a party in revolt against itself, one trying to distance itself from itself, ducking for cover from itself and from the fallout of simultaneously being too fascistic and not fascistic enough.



The Bush regime and the Republicans are in profound danger on other fronts as well. Following the lead of imperialist strategists from Democrat Zbignew Brzezinski to the Project for a New American Century, the regime committed itself to a plan of conquest in the Middle East and Central Asia, and to a fascistic program of political and racial repression at home, all under the rubric of a “war on terror.”

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Part 2
Posted by: rwa on Sep 21, 2006 2:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Bush apparently took Brzezinski literally when he warned in The Grand Chessboard, his 1997 call for a US global hegemony: “It is also a fact that America is too democratic at home to be autocratic abroad. This limits the use of America's power, especially its capacity for military intimidation.“



The Bush crew determined, in any case, to make the US less “democratic” at “home,” and to launch a series of pre-planned wars for global dominance abroad.



Deeply hated by people everywhere, on the verge of losing power in the House and Senate, divided over torture, spying, military tribunals, secret prisons, immigration, and plans for war against Iran, mired in loss in Iraq, rocked by scandal and widespread corruption, exposed as mass killers of the innocent in Lebanon and as racists in New Orleans, the Republican regime is finding that its center cannot hold.



The Christian Science Monitor says that 61% of people in the US oppose the war in Iraq.



By a margin of 52% to 43%, respondents to a Zogby poll want Congress to consider impeaching President Bush if he wiretapped American citizens without a judge’s approval -- which, of course, he did.



The Republican Party and the Bush regime are in chaos.



Strategically, the Republicans have pushed things to a breaking point: they’ve overextended the Empire in ways that could lead to its defeat.



At last the mainstream press is on the attack -- they want no imperial defeat -- and would-be “moderate” Republican imperialists like John McCain are in rebellion. Even Colin Powell, who as one pundit noted “helped design and lead” Bush’s policy toward “terrorists,” is on the attack, breaking his public silence on the matter of torture years after the fact. The lifeboat is filled with rats.



Republican operatives have a keen eye on Bush’s military lap dog, Tony Blair, as his engine sputters in mid-flight, as his key supporters demand his resignation, his Labor Party painfully aware that if it “stays the course” its dominance of British politics is lost. Blair has promised to resign by Spring -- just long enough to help Bush launch war against Iran, one assumes.



Even here the Republicans are divided. According to Martin Walker of UPI, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has cold feet over the regime’s plan for striking Iran while Vice President Dick Cheney is pushing all the harder for war. Walker writes, “This heralds the first important policy breech between the triumvirate of Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld, sometimes known in Washington as "the iron triangle," in almost six years of the Bush administration.”



Let no one think the mainstream press or the Republicans suddenly “got religion,” or anything else akin to morality.



The Bush regime is failing miserably -- in Iraq and elsewhere -- at fulfilling the geo-strategic mandate laid out by the “Democrat’s Kissinger,” Brzezinski whose strategic thinking finds striking parallels in the Project for a New American Century cabal that runs the White House.



"The most immediate task,” Brzezinski wrote, “is to make certain that no state or combination of states gains the capacity to expel the United States from Eurasia or even to diminish significantly its decisive arbitration role."

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I don't agree
Posted by: mjabele on Sep 21, 2006 8:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We'll see how the elections turn out. With the current Congress receiving a 25% approval rating from the general public, I don't think the majority party has all that much cause to feel confident heading toward November.

I'm afraid I don't understand your comment about taking pictures at all. I still think electrocuting and waterboarding prisoners isn't all that different from gouging out eyes or dripping acid on them, though I'm kind of shocked that we seem to be arguing about whether US "levels" of torture (or "harsh interrogation" - sorry!) are equal to what terrorists use or not.

As for your last statement, of course one has to give up some things in wartime - I've been in the military myself, though I wouldn't argue that Bosnia 1996 was an example of direct combat. But it wasn't exactly fun to be deployed, either. I'm willing to (and during that deployment, did) give up things like comfort, freedom to move about as I pleased, access to family - and though I wasn't put in that position, I'd be willing to give up my life as well to defend the principles of liberty that I believe the United States was founded upon two centuries ago. But on the other hand, I was not then, and am not now, willing to give up essential powers of government to a "unitary Executive" in defiance of how I think the Constitution of this country was written and ought to be interpreted.

Like many other Americans, I think the President's goals to expand his powers put democracy at risk in our country - particularly given the length of time it will take, by his own admission, to win this "generational" war against terrorism. I don't think anyone in 1939 viewed that struggle as one that would last decades - but assuming it had, perhaps whatever freedoms were shelved during those 6 years might not have been so quickly restored, and the world in 1984 might have looked more like what George Orwell projected. Personally, I think the unrestricted ability to wiretap and eavesdrop (and torture!) will lead, over the time course presupposed by this particular conflict, to an irresistible temptation on the part of future Executives to use such powers against domestic opponents rather than just foreign ones. Did we give up essential freedoms during the many decades of Cold War conflict with the USSR? Some people argued at the time that we needed to, but we didn't, and in the end we won anyway.....or, I would argue, perhaps even because of that.

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torture is a felony
Posted by: diggins on Sep 21, 2006 8:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
torture is a felony

yoo is a felon, and a traitor

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» RE: torture is a felony Posted by: diggins
» RE: torture is a felony Posted by: diggins
The lawyer mindset
Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Sep 22, 2006 1:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is something none of you seem to get. They' re like some 'pure' scientists I've met. Suppose some physicist comes up with a brilliant idea for a virus that kills 100% of all people in a certain country and nowhere else. To him it's purely a mental exercise, and when some military makes and uses it, he feels no connection to himself at all.

It's the same, I suspect, with Yoo: he found ways to interpret laws and ideas so that they now mean - to those who choose to use them so - exactly the opposite of what they were written to mean. It's like solving the NYT crossword puzzle but even more so to him. And no more. If some 14 year old gets tortured to death, it has nothing to do with him at all, in his mind. He did what he was supposed to do, what he was trained to do, and he did it very well. That's his entire take on it.

Lawyers who get the death penalty for people they know are innocent seem to feel the same. They don't kill anyone - they just figure out complex tactics and make them work.

Ian

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FUCK YOO
Posted by: rollo on Sep 22, 2006 3:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can you believe this neocon shitheel hails from Berkeley California?

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» RE: FUCK YOO Posted by: jeanna
The resources it will take
Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Sep 24, 2006 3:35 AM   
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When you stop to think about how deep and wide this whole thing is: the entire top SEVERAL layers of our government, all the rich and super-rich who control - what? - 60-80% of our news and other info and comm systems plus who-knows-how-much of the rest of our businesses. Oh, the power companies, Big Pharma, Big Oil (not always just power), and on and on... Then there are the pseudo-Christian ultra-right, which seems to have wormed it's way into a LOT of places of power, some quite surprising, who seem think the Neocon anti-everything-that-feels-good stance is just perfect. See what I mean?

Short of the entire military - which is apparently full of fanatics now too - joining up with all armed civilians and sweeping the country, I don't know that I see the resources plus organization it would take to clean house. Even then it would be a witch hunt, with, as always, a lot of non-witches (with apologies to any real witches, but it's an old example) being burned. The bastards have messed us up pretty seriously, here.

By the time we're able to straighten things up even partially, a LOT of poor and other needy, people on government medical of one sort or another (which includes my wife and me) and others are going to be homeless or just plain dead no matter what.

Ian

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Torture may be 'useful'
Posted by: larry.gilliam on Sep 27, 2006 7:24 AM   
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We need to be aware of the reasons for using torture:

- False confessions can be used to 'prove' that we are 'effective' at combatting terror. this is true even when the confessor is innocent.
-Using torture silences dissent.
-In combination with tribunals, where detainees cannot see evidence and have no access to lawyers, false confessions help convict all detainees, even if there is no evidence, justifying any actions we might take.

A