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Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already

By Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive. Posted September 18, 2006.


We have enough proof that the Bush administration is a bunch of lying evildoers. We don't need to make it up.

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At almost every progressive gathering where there's a question and answer session, someone or other vehemently raises 9/11 and espouses a grand conspiracy theory. If you haven't had the pleasure of enduring these rants, please let me share.

Here's what the conspiracists believe:

  • 9/11 was an inside job.
  • Members of the Bush Administration ordered it, not Osama bin Laden.
  • Arab hijackers may not have done the deed.
  • On top of that, the Twin Towers fell not because of the impact of the airplanes and the ensuing fires but because the Bush Administration got agents to plant explosives at the base of those buildings.
  • Building 7, another high-rise at the World Trade Center that fell on 9/11, also came down by planted explosives.
  • The Pentagon was not hit by American Airlines Flight 77 but by a smaller plane or a missile.
  • And the Pennsylvania plane did not crash as a result of the revolt by the passengers but was brought down by the military.


I'm amazed at how many people give credence to these theories. Everyone's an engineer. People who never even took one college science course can now hold forth at great length on how the buildings at the World Trade Center could not possibly have collapsed in the way they did and why the Pentagon could not have been struck by that American Airlines jet.

Problem is, some of the best engineers in the country have studied these questions and come up with perfectly logical, scientific explanations for what happened.

The American Society of Civil Engineers and FEMA conducted an in-depth investigation of the World Trade Center. The team members included the director of the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers, the senior fire investigator for the National Fire Protection Association, professors of fire safety, and leaders of some of the top building design and engineering firms, including Skidmore Owings & Merrill in Chicago, Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire in Seattle, and Greenhorne & O'Mara in Maryland.

It concluded that massive structural damage caused by the crashing of the aircrafts into the buildings, combined with the subsequent fires, "were sufficient to induce the collapse of both structures."

The National Institute of Standards and Technology did its own forty-three volume study of the Twin Towers. "Some 200 technical experts . . . reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, [and] performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations," the institute says.

It also concluded that a combination of the crash and the subsequent fires brought the towers down: "In each tower, a different combination of impact damage and heat-weakened structural components contributed to the abrupt structural collapse."

Popular Mechanics, first in its March 2005 cover story and now in its expanded book, Debunking 9/11 Myths, after interviewing scores of other experts in the engineering field, takes apart the most popular contentions of the conspiracists. "In every case we examined, the key claims made by conspiracy theorists turned out to be mistaken, misinterpreted, or deliberately falsified," the book says.

I made a few calls myself, including to Gene Corley, who conducted the American Society of Civil Engineers/FEMA study, and to Mete Sozen, structural engineering professor at Purdue, who was one of the principal authors of "The Pentagon Building Performance Report" of January 2003, which was done under the auspices of the American Society of Civil Engineers and the Structural Engineering Institute. I also contacted engineering professors at MIT and other leading universities in the country, and none of them puts any stock in the 9/11 conspiracy theories. In fact, they view them as a huge waste of time. They are busy trying to figure out how to prevent buildings from falling in the future.

Of course, any conspiracy theorist worth his or her salt will claim that all these people are in on the plot. And that I am in on it, too.

Get over it.

The guru of the 9/11 conspiracy movement is David Ray Griffin, an emeritus professor not of engineering but of philosophy and theology at the Claremont School of Theology. First in The New Pearl Harbor and then in The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions and now in Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11, Griffin has peddled his conspiracy theory.

He's not alone, of course. A myriad of websites devote themselves to this subject, and several films are circulating on it, including Loose Change. There's even a group called Scholars for 9/11 Truth, which insists "the World Trade Center was almost certainly brought down by controlled demolitions." Most prominent among these is Steven E. Jones, professor of physics and astronomy at Brigham Young University, whose primary field is not engineering but cold fusion, according to Debunking 9/11 Myths.

The conspiracy theories are particularly popular on the left for a couple of understandable reasons. It's undeniable that Bush has ceaselessly seized on 9/11 to justify his warmaking abroad and his repressive policies at home. And then there's the notorious phrase in a document of the Project for the New American Century, the fount of neoconservativism, whose members included Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, and a host of other hawks who flew into the Bush Administration. That line, from the September 2000 study "Rebuilding America's Defenses," argues for transforming the U.S. military posture into a much more aggressive one, and for expanding the Pentagon's budget to reach $500 billion a year. The authors recognized that this transformation would be difficult to achieve quickly "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event--like a new Pearl Harbor."

Griffin and other leftwing conspiracy theorists put the two together, and voila. The attacks "were orchestrated in order to pave the way for launching unprovoked wars on two countries that provided no threat, whether imminent or long-term, to the people of the United States," he writes in Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11. "The Administration and its Pentagon even planned to use 9/11 as a pretext . . . to attack still more countries. The U.S. government was planning, therefore, to use the deaths of some 3,000 people (whom itself had killed) to justify wars that would most likely kill and maim many hundreds of thousands of people, perhaps millions."

Before taking some of the major conspiracy claims one by one, let's examine how outlandish the conspiracy theory is on its face.

First, Osama bin Laden has already claimed responsibility for the attack several times and boasted of the prowess of the suicide bombers who hijacked those planes. Why not take him at his word? And if bin Laden were working in cahoots with the Bush Administration, why was the President warned on August 6, 2001, in a Presidential daily briefing that Osama bin Laden was about to attack the United States? Wouldn't that risk exposing the conspiracy?

Second, if the Bush Administration plotters carried out 9/11 to justify attacking Iraq, why didn't they have Iraqi hijackers do the deed? In actuality, there was not a single Iraqi hijacker, and Bush propagandists had to do all sorts of gymnastics to link Iraq to the actual attackers.

Third, for this conspiracy to have succeeded, it would have had to have been amazingly vast: not only the high level members of the Bush Administration (including the head of the Secret Service, Griffin says in Christian Faith) and the explosives teams, but also many others.

Griffin, in Pearl Harbor, for instance, alleges that Mayor Rudolph Giuliani may have been involved. Griffin quotes Giuliani telling ABC News, "We were operating out of there [Building 7] when we were told that the World Trade Center was gonna collapse." Griffin says Giuliani had no obvious way of knowing that, and concludes: "Giuliani's statement provides, therefore, evidence someone, perhaps he himself, knew something that the firemen in the buildings did not know--which was perhaps that explosives had been placed in the buildings and were about to be set off." Is that really evidence? Isn't it much more likely that the firefighters told the mayor to leave because the fire itself was jeopardizing the building?

Griffin also alleges that Larry Silverstein, who leased the World Trade Center complex, was in on the deal so he could collect the insurance. (This claim--which he might as well have called "The Jew Cashed In"--dovetails with the anti-Semitic conspiracy theory popular in the Middle East that the Mossad blew up the towers and warned the thousands of Jews who would have been working there to stay home.)

In Pearl Harbor, Griffin quotes Silverstein in a 2002 PBS documentary recalling a conversation from the fire department commander on September 11 "telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse." Griffin, who writes that Silverstein "made almost $500 million in profit from the collapse of Building 7," says by "pull it" Silverstein was recommending that the building be demolished by explosives. Silverstein has flat-out denied that. By "pulling it," he has said that he meant giving up on the firefighters' efforts to save the building.

Two books later, Griffin removes any ambiguity Silverstein's "assertion that Building 7 was brought down by explosives, whatever the motive behind it, explains why and how it collapsed," Griffin writes in Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11. But Silverstein never made such an assertion, and for Griffin to claim he did is, to say the least, a distortion.

The problems with a vast conspiracy theory are obvious. There's the likelihood that someone along the chain would squeal. Members of the government have been engaged in far less treasonous plots (such as Bush's designs on Iran), and whistleblowers have managed to get the information out to the likes of Seymour Hersh over at The New Yorker. And, on top of that, we're supposed to believe that this incompetent Administration, which brought you Katrina, was somehow able to execute this grand conspiracy?

"The government is not sufficiently competent to pull off such conspiracies and too leaky to keep them secret," said Richard Clarke, the one-time counterterrorism czar for Clinton and Bush, in a blurb for Debunking 9/11 Myths. Clarke has been a harsh critic of Bush, and he was a strong supporter of John Kerry. Don't you think Clarke would have blown the whistle had he known? And who was in a better position than he to know?

Finally, in Pearl Harbor, Griffin acknowledges one enormous, unfillable hole in the conspiracists' theory: If Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, where did it go? And where did all sixty-four people on board go? Griffin pathetically answers: "One cannot expect that the revisionists, being independent researchers with limited budgets and no power to subpoena testimony, could answer all the questions raised by their alternative scenario." But that doesn't stop him from speculating, in a ghoulish way, about one piece of evidence that contradicts his Flight 77 notion: the phone calls from conservative Barbara Olson, who was on Flight 77, to her husband, Ted Olson, Bush's solicitor general. Griffin casts doubt on whether the phone calls actually happened, noting that Olson "is very close to the Bush Administration." At least in Pearl Harbor, Griffin recognizes the weakness of this argument. The conspiracy theorists "still need to explain, of course, what became of Barbara Olson, and also whether it is plausible that Ted Olson would have participated in a plan with that outcome," he writes. In his latest book, though, Griffin does not appear bothered in the least, as he continues to cast doubt on Ted Olson's account. He has swept Barbara Olson and sixty-three other people under the rug.

On to some of Griffin's most oft-cited questions.

Why did dust clouds shoot out of the Twin Towers as they fell?

Or, as Griffin poses it in Pearl Harbor: "What other than explosives could turn concrete into powder and then eject it horizontally 150 feet or more?"

Corley, who headed up the investigation for the American Society of Civil Engineers and FEMA, gives a quick response to that. "That is simply the air pressure being pushed down," he says. "Once the collapse started, then you had roughly a twenty-story building and roughly a thirty-story building acting as a very large mass to push everything down. The air pressure gets quite something, and the windows on the lower floors break, and you see puffs of smoke coming out of them." Debunking 9/11 Myths offers the same explanation and cites structural engineer Jon Magnusson, who says this expulsion of air and debris is fairly common when buildings collapse.

Why did the tower that was hit second fall first?

"All other things being equal, then, the tower that was struck first should have collapsed first. And yet, although the South Tower was struck seventeen minutes later than the North Tower, it collapsed twenty-nine minutes earlier," writes Griffin in Pearl Harbor. The fact that the South Tower fell first, he concludes, "suggests that the collapse of these buildings was caused by something other than the fires."

But all things weren't equal. "The damage done to the second building was more serious than the damage done to the first," says Corley.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology concurs. Its "Final Report on the Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers" notes that ten core columns were severed in the South Tower, whereas only six were severed in the North. And 20,000 more square feet of insulation was stripped from the trusses in the South Tower than the North. The report "found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001."

What about Building 7?

This is a favorite of the conspiracy theorists, since the planes did not strike this structure. But the building did sustain damage from the debris of the Twin Towers. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom--approximately ten stories--about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out," Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator for the National Institute of Standards and Technology, told Popular Mechanics.

What's more, the fire in the building lasted for about eight hours, in part because there were fuel tanks in the basement and on some of the floors. "The building was designed for a fire duration of no more than about three hours," says Corley. "Eight hours was way more than what that building was designed for." (Corley, by the way, also headed up the investigation of the Murrah Building's collapse in Oklahoma City.)

The National Institute of Standards and Technology is still studying the collapse of Building 7, but its initial report says: "NIST has seen no evidence that the collapse of WTC 7 was caused by bombs, missiles, or controlled demolition."

What about the Pentagon?

Conspiracy theorists will bend your ear explaining that the American Airlines Boeing 757 couldn't possibly have made such a small hole in the Pentagon. Griffin in Pearl Harbor: "The orifice created by the impact . . . was at most eighteen feet in diameter. Is it not absurd to suggest that a Boeing 757 created and then disappeared into such a small hole? . . . Can anyone seriously believe that a 125-foot-wide airplane created and then went inside a hole less than twenty-feet wide?"

First of all, the hole was actually ninety feet wide, according to the "Pentagon Building Performance Report" of January 2003, which the American Society of Civil Engineers and the Structural Engineering Institute put out. And Professor Sozen of Purdue, one of the authors of that report, has an explanation.

"The reinforced columns of the Pentagon destroyed the wings," says Sozen. "That's why the hole is smaller. It had to be smaller." Since working on that report, Sozen has designed simulations at Purdue, and his results correspond with what happened to Flight 77, he says. Sozen, who identifies himself as a progressive, says it is "ridiculous to deny" that the American Airlines plane hit the Pentagon. And, he adds, if Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon, where did it go and "what happened to the people in that plane"?

But we know what happened to them. They died at the Pentagon. "All but five of the 189 people who died on the aircraft and in the Pentagon were later identified through DNA testing," according to Debunking 9/11 Myths.

Finally, was Flight 93 shot down?

Griffin and many other conspiracists allege that Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania, was brought down not by the passengers struggling with the hijackers but by a U.S. missile. But we know from cell phone conversations that passengers on board that plane planned on confronting the hijackers. And, as Debunking 9/11 Myths notes, "a Cleveland air traffic controller assigned to Flight 93 heard signs of a struggle in the cockpit, followed shortly by screaming."

Tapes of the conversations at the northeast regional headquarters for the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) confirm this, as Michael Bronner has shown in his August article for Vanity Fair entitled "9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes." Major Kevin Nasypany was the facility's mission-crew commander that day, and the tapes show him frantically trying to figure what was going on and whether he had orders to shoot Flight 93 down.

"Gimme the call sign," he says at 10:07. "Gimme the whole nine yards. . . . Let's get some info, real quick. They got a bomb?"

But, as Bronner reports, by then "everyone on board is already dead. Following the passengers' counterattack, the plane crashed in a field in Pennsylvania at 10:03 a.m."

The man who headed up the crash site investigation there was Matthew McCormick, a thirty-three-year veteran at the National Transportation Safety Board. "From my investigation there was no pre-impact stress to the airplane," he told the Debunking authors.

To be sure, there are discrepancies and omissions in The 9/11 Commission Report, and the Pentagon and FAA appear to have not been fully truthful and forthcoming about what happened that day. Not every riddle that Griffin and other conspiracists pose has a ready answer. But almost all of their major assertions are baseless. And their own theories have such gigantic holes and require such monumental leaps of logic that they discredit themselves.

At bottom, the 9/11 conspiracy theories are profoundly irrational and unscientific. It is more than passing strange that progressives, who so revere science on such issues as tobacco, stem cells, evolution, and global warming, are so willing to abandon science and give in to fantasy on the subject of 9/11.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a cul-de-sac. They lead nowhere. And they aren't necessary to prove the venality of the Bush Administration. There's plenty of that proof lying around. We don't need to make it up.

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Matthew Rothschild is the editor of The Progressive.

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True or Not
Posted by: marxalot on Sep 18, 2006 12:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether the various theories are true or not, they play into the administration's hands, making progressives look like a bunch of loones.

My conspiracy theory is that the right is fueling all of this noise to help discredit legitimate criticism of the administration's handling of the country post-911. Sounds like a Rove thing, doesn't it?

Further it is entirely possible that elements within the State Department knew of the plot and 'let it happen.' That would be believable to me. The 'Pearl Harbor' event that had been wished for by the neocon faction at State.

The article is correct though, this stuff should not be on anyone's front burner right now.

» RE: True or Not Posted by: mazel
» RE: True or Not Posted by: marxalot
» marxalot, I agree Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: marxalot, I agree Posted by: rsaxto
» Here we go again... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Here we go again... Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Here we go again... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Here we go again... Posted by: conquerormarr
» RE: Here we go again... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» who w/the same name is related?? Posted by: Corps_8_my_baby
» I love being "right"! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: I love being "right"! Posted by: Techubus
» I agree Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: True or Not Posted by: VisionQuest
» RE: True or Not Posted by: harris
» RE: True or Not Posted by: brunowe
» Here comes the GOP..AGAIN! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Here comes the GOP..AGAIN! Posted by: ShoShenQ
» RE: Here comes the GOP..AGAIN! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: True or Not Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: True or Not Posted by: WILDSTARCHILD
» RE: True or Not Posted by: outsidea
» RE: True or Not Posted by: WILDSTARCHILD
» RE: True or Not Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: True or Not Posted by: bodo
» RE: True or Not Posted by: conquerormarr
» "look like a bunch of loonies" Posted by: thoughtcriminal
Report from Implosion World
Posted by: dancerkc on Sep 18, 2006 12:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For a nice report released 8 August 2006 by Brent Blanchard (on ImplosionWorld.com) titled "A Critical Analysis of the Collapse of WTC Towers 1, 2, & 7 From an Explosives and Conventional Demolition Industry Viewpoint" get the report (as a PDF) directly from
Report (PDF).
The site links are: Implosion World Site
and Page with Link to PDF report

It states the Blanchard is director of field operation at Protec Documentation Services Inc (www.protecservices.com) and says that "Protec is one of the world's most knowledgeable independent authorities on explosive demolition..."

The report gives very good arguments and observations cutting down conspiracy theorists and deserves to be read. It displays the engineering knowledge from the field and good common sense arguments.

I am sorry to say that where I have seen postings to this article elsewhere those postings show the dominance of those who failed at science, math and logic. Between the Bush admin's faith-based crap and all the imagination-fueled conspiracies I worry about the new mini-dark ages of the mind.

» RE: He may be a good photographer... Posted by: dancingcloud
Pearl Harbor and office politics
Posted by: dancerkc on Sep 18, 2006 1:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The comparisons with Pearl Harbor are only good in so far as they both have poorly researched and highly imagined conspiracy theories. In the case of Pearl more damage was caused by office politics in terms of power struggle between the real code breakers (i.e. Joe Rochefort) in the Hawaiian office and the power grab by the Redman brothers in Washington. They almost cost us victory at Midway (except for the command in Hawaii going around orders from Washington) and were responsible for the public court case against the Chicago newspaper in mid-1942 which caused the Japanese to change the miliary part of the JN-25, effectively all but blinding us at the start of the Guadalcanal operation in August.

That cost us heavily. The court case was about the release (un-intended) of secure information about code breaking), something noticed but dismissed by the Japanese until the case found its way to court on the insistence of the Redmans.

This is detailed in "I Was There" by Edwin T. Layton, in charge of the code operations in Hawaii with Rochefort. Rochefort was later removed from code breaking work by the angry Redmans who wanted the credit for themselves. Rochefort didn't care who got the credit, but maybe he should have. He might have remained in operation as our most effective cryptologists and one of the inventors of our signal intelligence operations.

Basic moral: it is the internal, who's-in'charge political struggles which either do more damage to us than the enemy or allow the enemy to inflict serious damage on us. Draw your comparisons.

More like the Reichstag fire
Posted by: dancerkc on Sep 18, 2006 1:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rather than a Pearl comparison the 9/11 tragedy might be better compared with the Reichstag Fire which allowed the Nazis all manner of excuses for wiping out all resemblance of a legitimate government and put themselves in power, then totally changing the conditions within Germany. One change after another, one set of law changes after another and so forth were fueld by the "crisis" shown by the Reichstag fire.

The difference in the two events would be that the Nazis fired the Reichstag themselves while the neocons merely took advantage of 9/11's occurence.

» RE: More like the Reichstag fire Posted by: conquerormarr
» Nazi lineage begets Nazis Posted by: harpy
» The language is the issue. Posted by: bullwhip7
Give this guy a contract!
Posted by: DoctorAndy on Sep 18, 2006 1:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Rothschild (a NON-engineer?) has composed the most magnificent example of scientific disinformation that I have seen to date on 911 and should be hired by the Bush gang, if he hasn't been already. Give him the Karl Rove Pig Cosmetics Award!

» RE: Give this guy a contract! Posted by: ljsullivan1166@earthlink.net
» RE: Give this guy a contract! Posted by: starvinmarvy
most likely
Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 18, 2006 1:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If everything in this piece is true then the most likely explanation is that elements of the Bushies suppressed a response which could have prevented the success of at least part of the 9/11 events. That is enough for impeachment in addition to the numerous other illegal Bushie actions. The massive Bushie secrecy around 9/11 validates this conclusion. If all of the Bushie secrets were revealed then impeachment would become a certainty because they did so much that is criminal.

» Saxto, an additional comment Posted by: kellysgarden
Let's stop asking questions....
Posted by: bornxeyed on Sep 18, 2006 2:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and just accept what the government has to say about the most improbable event of all time.

During an administration based solely on lies we are simply to believe what it has to say about the precipitating event of every action this government has taken.

Stop asking questions. We are to call this progressive?

Look at Alternet's nifty new sponsors.

Capital One!

Who's wallet are you in, Alternet?

Bellsouth?

I remember a cynical twist on an old sing-songy Bell System company ad:
"We're all 'inspected', New York Telephone"

Unanswered Questions
Posted by: beskeptic2024 on Sep 18, 2006 2:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Interesting article, however, it failed to mention a link I have always found curious about 9/11. Why did the ISI director order the wiring of hundreds of thousands of dollars to the 9/11 hijackers leading up to the attack? Why was he or Pakistan never punished? This story has been reported in the WSJ and the Asia Times and while not demonstrating complicity in the planning by the Bush administration, this evidence demonstrates that they knowingly used 9/11 to attack not our enemies behind the attacks, but rather a nation innocent of wrongdoing on that day.

Also, it is perhaps the most unprogressive thing that I can imagine to say that the people should not ask questions and accept the official version of events. It is that type of belief that would have allowed the CIA's decades of coups and assassination attempts to remain hidden, that would have allowed Watergate to go unpunished, and the list goes on. And furthermore, there is nothing kooky or crazy about demanding the full, detailed facts of everything about that day from our government.

I wonder if the writer of this article and those that instantly shut their eyes and ears when confronted with questions, reasonable unanswered questions about 9/11, are just afraid of what road they might be led down if they start to dig too deep. For those that believe that our leaders would never dream of doing such a thing, one only need to look at Operation Northwoods, in which all of the top military men in the nation signed off on a proposal to stage fake terror attacks as pretext for a war with Cuba. At that time, we thankfully had an executive unwilling to go that far to achieve its ends, but that is not to say that under a different set of leaders at a different time, such a plan would be scrapped for moral reasons if it was believed to justify the ends.

A link to the ISI story
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FD08Aa01.html

Think for yourselves.

» RE: Unanswered Questions Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: Unanswered Questions Posted by: WILDSTARCHILD
» RE: Unanswered Questions Posted by: beskeptic2024
Paul Feldman, London
Posted by: Paul, London on Sep 18, 2006 3:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The conspiracy theory approach gives the state much too much credibility. If everything is just one big conspiracy, then the state is not only all-powerful but, more importantly, in total control of events and outcomes and can never be defeated. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just look at Iraq, the aftermath of Katrina and now Afghanistan. The state is in a right state - not at all the master of events.

» RE: Paul Feldman, London Posted by: Lauren
Bush Science - Part I
Posted by: dainin on Sep 18, 2006 3:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The seven steps of NIST’s collapse initiation sequence that are common to both towers, clarified and summarized as fairly as possible, are as follows.

1. A number of columns were severed by aircraft impact
2. Loads were redistributed to the remaining columns
3. Fireproofing was “widely dislodged”
4. Columns and floor assemblies were softened by high temperatures
5. Softened floor assemblies began to sag
6. Sagging floors pulled the exterior columns inward, causing columns to buckle
7. Instability spread around the exterior of the building

The first two steps of this sequence are not surprising, although there are assumptions on NIST’s part. At step one, we can take their word for it that approximately 15% of the columns were severed in each building by aircraft impact. Note that this is quite low compared to original design claims reported in the mid-sixties by the Engineering News-Record that suggested the towers could lose more than 25% of their columns without having any problems. As for the second step, NIST says the loads actually decreased on some columns and increased slightly for others. Again, no problem here considering similar design claims that the exterior columns could withstand 2000% increases in live load.

With step three we quickly get to the core of NIST’s collapse initiation argument. Their report states that “The WTC towers likely would not have collapsed under the combined effects of aircraft impact damage and the extensive, multi-floor fires if the thermal insulation had not been widely dislodged or had been only minimally dislodged by aircraft impact.” Considering that NIST so clearly depends on extensive fireproofing loss, you would think they would have spent a great deal of their time and money investigating this effect and communicating the details.

But no, one had to be very patient and focused to find what evidence NIST provided for this crucial claim. Their test for fireproofing loss, never inserted in the draft reports, involved shooting a total of fifteen rounds from a shotgun at non-representative samples in a plywood box. Flat steel plates were used instead of column samples, and no floor deck samples were tested at all. In the end, they slid the results into a 12 page appendix to the final report.

Unfortunately, it’s not hard to see that these tests actually disproved their findings. One reason is that there is no evidence that a Boeing 767 could transform into any number of shotgun blasts. Nearly 100,000 blasts would be needed based on NIST’s own damage estimates, and these would have to be directed in a very symmetrical fashion to strip the columns and floors from all sides. However, it is much more likely that the aircraft debris was a distribution of sizes from very large chunks to a few smaller ones, and that it was directed asymmetrically. Also, there is no indication that fireproofing was stripped from beneath the aluminum cladding on the exterior columns, but in subsequent steps of their story, NIST depends on this.

To put NIST’s pivotal claim to rest, there was simply no energy available to cause fireproofing loss. Previous calculations by engineers at MIT had shown that all the kinetic energy from the aircraft was consumed in breaking columns, crushing the floors and destroying the aircraft itself. But NIST’s tests indicate that 1 MJ of energy was needed per square meter of surface area to shear the fireproofing off. For the areas in question, more than 6,000 square meters of column, floor deck and floor joist surface, the extra energy needed would be several times more than the entire amount of kinetic energy available to begin with.

We could stop there, and realize that NIST’s story is not plausible. But to emphasize just how implausible it is, let’s go on to step four (next message).

Bush Science - Part II
Posted by: dainin on Sep 18, 2006 3:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On to step four, where high temperatures softened the columns and floors. NIST did tests for this as well. The first test, that examined paint deformation on steel samples chosen specifically from the fire zones, showed that less than 2% of the samples had seen temperatures above 250 C. Another test gave the one-sided result that no samples saw temperatures above 600 C. The obvious problem here is that steel does not soften or lose significant strength at the low temperatures indicated, yet NIST’s story depends on the softening or weakening of vast quantities of steel in both core and exterior columns, floor decks and floor joists. The less obvious problem is that structural steel components are chosen for use in buildings based in part on fire resistance tests. According to Underwriters Laboratories’ (UL’s) Chief Executive Officer, tests on steel components for the WTC buildings were performed by UL nearly forty years ago, and the results verified conformance to the New York City code requirements for multiple hours of fire resistance at much higher temperatures.

An important thing to realize here is the duration of the WTC fires. Many have noted that these fires were not very intense, because the black smoke indicated Oxygen starved fires that would have produced relatively little heat. But according to NIST, the fires in the failure zones did not last very long either. NIST points to the east wall of WTC 2 as the failure zone, and say that the fires reached this area within 10 to 20 minutes of aircraft impact. NIST goes on to say that it took 50 to 60 minutes for the fires to migrate around the core of the building in WTC 1. These official estimates indicate that the fires in the failure zones of the towers lasted for only about 45 minutes in each case, much less than the 3 or 4 hours of fire resistance required by the NYC code.

How about step five? As part of NIST’s investigation, Underwriters Laboratories performed additional tests to establish the fire resistance of models of the WTC floor assemblies. The results were that the floor assembly models not only didn’t collapse, invalidating the long-standing “Pancake Theory”, but the floors barely sagged – only about 3 inches, despite the use of double the known floor load and two hours of fire exposure (i.e. over twice the duration of fires known to have existed in the failure zones). NIST then added this 3 inch sag to their computer model, and by way of an unknown transformation, it suddenly became 42 inches of extreme sagging.

At this point it is difficult to continue, but since our own futures depend on this story, we must. Step six says that sagging floors pulled exterior columns inward. To support this, NIST plugged at least nine different scenarios into their computer, with just one of these showing inward bowing in their virtual reality. To do this, they had to take a computer mock-up of a nine story high by nine column wide wall section, remove it from it’s web of support by “disconnection”, strip off ALL the fireproofing, expose this section to twice the known fire time yet again (90 minutes), and then apply some unspecified, utterly miraculous inward pull. Without a doubt, one rarely finds more shameful and obvious examples of the distortion of science.

How about NIST’s last collapse initiation step (seven)? They don’t say much here except that “instability spread” around the entire building. Since the buildings came down uniformly into their own footprints, and did so in approximately 10 seconds, there was precious little time for instability spread. If we give them half a second to accomplish this, the instability would have had to move at nearly twice the speed of sound. That is, of course, not realistic.

After providing a clearly false collapse initiation sequence, NIST says “global collapse ensued”.

Nice prediction.

» Very well stated! Posted by: citizenjoe
» RE: Bush Science - Part II Posted by: tiellis
» RE: Bush Science - Part II Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Bush Science - Part II Posted by: jag585
If the official 9/11 story is true
Posted by: hankgeorge on Sep 18, 2006 3:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...why did Bush put Kenneth Zelikow, a close ally, in charge of the commission's key position: "sifting and winnowing" what was aired and what was suppressed? Why did they ignore all evidence that did not fit their theory. Why did they habitually alter the "official" 9/11 timeline, as Senator Mark Dayton demanded to know when he appeared before the Commission? Are his demands answered or covered in the Commission's report? Why was the statement of FAA's Norman Mineta, who was in the command center with Cheney, not covered in the final report? This is the one where Cheney was being asked by the soldier at his side if "the orders still stand" as the "757" closed in on the Pentagon. Which orders, Mr. Vice President? Why didn't the Pentagon's superb air defense system shoot down this vulnerable target? When challenged to debate their findings, why did the experts decline? They gave the shabby, intellectually-impoverished explanation that they did not want to give credibility to the "conspiracy theorists." I wonder if they did not want to lose in full view of the press?

Sorry, fellas, there is just too much that does not add up here.

And if there EVER was a controlled demolition, it was WTC-7. Watch the film, for heaven's sake. I don't think anyone can see this and come back with a straight face denying that it was "pulled" (the REAL meaning of "pulled" is implode, by the way).

Too many unanswered questions. Too much selective reporting of only that which buttresses the official story. This brief essay does nothing whatsoever to "debunk" the view that 9/11 was other than as portrayed. And the new "book" debunking the conspiracy theories...have you seen this book? I have. It is absurd, when put side by side with Griffin's work, etc. It is a hastily constructed unscientific piece of drivel that does nothing to debunk the challenges to 9/11.

Want an eye-popping experience? Read David Hopsicker's TERRORLAND: THE 9/11 COVERUP IN FLORIDA. See what you have not been told about Mohamed Atta and his buddies. This from interviews with people who were there, including his ex-girlfriend. The unexplored issues raised in this one book are mindboggling. Hopsicker, by the way, is a professional investigative reporter. Then read CROSSING THE RUBICON by Michael Ruppert. Oddly, all the sound research and superb documentation comes in books that challenge the official story.

Clearly, some people are getting scared if they have to grind out junk food like that new unscientific "pamphlet" with the gung-ko preface by John McCain.

It should be interesting to see what happens when LOOSE CHANGE is released at Sundance and then in 500 theatres nationwide. Maybe the public will finally have a chance to see 9/11 from a different perspective. That would be refreshing to say the least.

I do not think either assessment of 9/11 is proven. I think we need an unbiased investigation where all the evidence is presented, questioned, debated, studied further...until we get as close to the truth as humans can. Is this unreasonable, considering the magnitude of the implications? I think not. And a burgeoning number of Americans are thinking likewise, aren't they? Read the polls, gents...

Another white wash artical by Mathew. again???
Posted by: Obviousllynotbuyingit on Sep 18, 2006 3:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ohh boy Mathew you really have some credit there now ,
I seam to see a lot of your right leaning articals lately, Its Just imbarrassing to watch you do this too your self, first of all 9/11 was most definatlly a work in progress weather bush had anything too do with it or not, I will say this , Fact is bush does have a neiphew that has a contract securing the trade centers And its not just by chance that a unschedualled Maintenance operation Had been preformed one week before 9/11, for a period of one full day the electronic survelience camera feeds were shut down, this is fact, or Mabe would like to say its just clerical era that it was recorded as unschedualled?, Plenty of time in 12hrs too go into cargo elevators which also have access to the main support structur, and lace thermite rope charges around the collums needed to create such a spectacular demolition, one as i have been yold by many mnay carreer Demo experts a work of art?. and this Maintenance period i talk of also has EYE witness's say they saw Vans unloading crates or boxes into the cargo elevator Just one week before 9/11. but owner's ? deny having any security Maintance done, They will not deny they do Regular maintance, but unschedualed , owner stated he can't recall, Bacause the files were destroyed in the colaps, Funny thing is every schedualled maintance file was redy'd and availible to the insurance co at there request , so This is real fishy too me and should stand grounds for quistion, why was there a UNschedualled SECURUTY maintanace that was NOT recorded can be verified and EYE witnessed by workers, not too mention The fact that Bushes neiphew has the contract to do the Security maintance At the Trade centers????, OK lets move On, In less than one Hour Planes created a fire so hot it totalled Trade centers Large POOL of molted steal were melted fast enought to just Pancake the Trade centers straight down, {no titernot even a toter}.
This happened With Jet feul? as most seen over 75% of that Jet feul was destroyed on Impact, That ids visiable you see it exploid on impact every on watched it, It phlumes were carefully measured < so with 75% of the feul Wasted on impact your telling me the remaining 25% melted the Steal and droped the Trade centers In One HOUR , and were Is the steal if it just weaked it enought to create a pancake effect, do you realixe JUST how MUCH steal that is In the structur of Those buildings, No freack"N way this jet feul even 100% of it would Have reached Tempuratures High enought in ONE HOUR too drop the Building right in there track, Ok think dummies>
now lets really ask a tough one, Were is the Bodies of Passengers, I mean A perfectlly preserved Passport survived the inpact at the trade center, This is first count By Buch Co cheney Co , there evidence terrorist were involed I mean come on they turned right around and Put this prestine Terrorist Passport on TV show the Face of terror, If the Bodies of every on on theat Plane were Vaporized How convient the Passport survided and Hey the found that suckrer In record TIMe, One day iyt took Bush to recover that Passport from the debre that took Months to sift threw trying to find bodies????????????, well Yes bodies wer found , BUt not the ones on the Plane??????, and or any other Passports of anyone on planes and or luggage??, Building 7 Silverstein say Just Pull it, ash a demo team ewhat that means , I mean a regular joe Like Silver would Likely Mean to say . If in fact he was reffering to get the Fire fighters out of the builing, { get those Guys out??????}ohh well The building Fell fast< i Mean really fact, Faster than just dropping a rock of the Building at the same time, I could DEBUNK you at every turn if your a fool enought to try and Ignore the Facts ,enought to not be totally suspecious, why After inquirys of A 9/11 research team was requested By the Families, Bush refused desperatlly 2 times To form a 9/11 comission ,

OPage two
Posted by: Obviousllynotbuyingit on Sep 18, 2006 3:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and this as public record made intell The 9/11 commision Agreed no sworne testomonies were too be heard in the 9/11 inquires from the 9/11 commision, and Only of the Commision was formed for prevention reason and were not on a mission ?/

I QUOTE BUSH { too Not finger piont or Blame anyone for the events of 9/11} But to find out ways too prevent such an attack in the future, Referr to bush speaches for the Transcript. And It was 6 months of desperate fighting with staff and The families of the 9/11 truth movement that Bush they even slippied up and recorded that Litttle telle telle tale For use as fichy as it would be . And if you think sworn testamonies in a comittie formed to reveiw Nationakl. securuity issues is a nation securuity rick , Like Bush thinks or want you to beleive your a fool,., ads a oppointed comitty by Bush for just sucjh review they become trusted members of such sensitive Material and Testomonies,

Its a national security issue becaUSE Bush and Co would be in Danger of treasonious act of agression apon on siol against Our on people, and Well a lot of planes carfull executive orders would be needed { DONE THaT??, http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/index.html a enormus abundace of Information would need classified top secrect, done that, record filing of eny administration , fact is More that all Presidents combined in History, Over 500 a year, Most presidents only classified 150 documents in there hole carrier Bush Executive Order on Classified National Security Information, to amend executive order 12958, signed March 25, 2003 (Edited Version reflecting changes made to EO 12958.) http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/eoamend.html, Fill free if possible to go too the site and Referance Dates. IT is Importain because no/ Issue of concering Date merits These executive orders not Even 9/11 or Iraqs invasion date congressional over site Was also removed by Bush as a executive order , RUBBER stamped By very neo con in congress and A few Democrates too>...http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/wh100901.html PLEASE notew that was suspecuslly One month after 9/11 press briefing, October 9, 2001 and we were not even in afganistan, yet, Also 9/11 event is Not a issue FBI has concerning BIn Laden, No check your self the FBI has no relation to BIN on there Most wanted site for the Attacks of 9/11 as a matter of Fact no one does no foreign or demostic , at least not in conection to 9/11 why , THER IS NO PROFF

Zionist Israelis were the architects of 9-11
Posted by: mat38 on Sep 18, 2006 4:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why were so many Israeli men whe were found here in the U.S. after 9-11, who were in this country illegally, suspected of collaboration with the attacks and detained, questioned and then sent back to Israel without any explanation?
It's a fact that in New Jersey several Israeli men were witnessed dancing in the streets full of joy and celebration during the WTC attacks. They were on top of their white moving van and a woman who saw them thought that they were Arabs who seemed too damn happy that the towers were under attack and they were taking pictures, cheering and high-fiving each other. When a cop resonded to her call the men were detained and held for several months then mysteriously let go.
Why was Benyamon Netanyahu warned, along with other Zionists, not to go out in New York and to stay away from the WTC that morning?
There are way too mnay unanswered questions about Israels role in getting America caught up in it's ongoing war against Arab people.

The conspiracy is not a theory if it is based on fact.
Posted by: terradea on Sep 18, 2006 4:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just keep remembering the radio interview I heard with the "knowledgeable" author of the Popular Mechanics anti-conspiracy theory article in which he said that the DNA tests proved who the hijackers were. When the interviewer asked him how the investigators obtained the original samples of DNA from the hijackers in order to compare, he had no answer. When the interviewer asked him more specifics about he DNA tests, he had no answer. When the interviewer asked him why the government was refusing to let the public see videos of the attacks, he had no answer.

I know what you're trying to do, Rothschild. Your trying to say that the crazies (BUSH & Co.) will win with the "divide and conquor" method. But don't expect the rest of us to swallow the government BS. I don't believe what the "experts" have to say because I know that "experts" can be created, bought, or threatened.

» Crazy Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Crazy Posted by: WILDSTARCHILD
CAPITAL ONE BANK GIVES ALTERNET MONEY???
Posted by: terradea on Sep 18, 2006 4:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That explains this article. Bye bye, Alternet. I only subscribe to blogs without corporate ties. Alternet...bought and sold.

» Typical conspiracy-mongering Posted by: brunowe
9/11 WAS an inside job
Posted by: moontime on Sep 18, 2006 4:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
9/11 WAS an inside job, and hearing that it wasn't from somebody from the Rothschild family doesn't exactly change my mind.

» RE: 9/11 WAS an inside job Posted by: seltzer
» RE: 9/11 WAS an inside job Posted by: harris
» RE: 9/11 WAS an inside job Posted by: Prophit
» RE: 9/11 WAS an inside job Posted by: monsieurbill
» RE: 9/11 WAS an inside job Posted by: Corps_8_my_baby
» RE: 9/11 WAS an inside job Posted by: brunowe
Unanswered questions spawn conspiracy theories
Posted by: Democritus on Sep 18, 2006 4:52 AM   
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Whenever there are unanswered questions, a conspiracy theory is not far behind. When JFK was shot, the Warren Commission's report didn't explain everything--for instance why Kennedy's head snapped back if he had been shot from the rear. That prompted the "two gunmen" theory and the claim that Lyndon Johnson engineered the murder to cover up missing funds, or that the Cuban communists did it as revenge for the Bay of Pigs invasion. Unanswered questions concerning why the World Trade Towers fell as they did prompt similar theories about how our devious government wanted an excuse to invade the Middle East. But the test for believing any conspiracy theory is simple: weigh the evidence in favor of the theory's being true against the evidence that falsifies it. In the the attack on the Trade Towers, there is so much falsifying evidence--especially concerning the unlikelihood that such a hugh conspiracy could be kept secret--that it overwhelms any evidence in favor of the theory. What all conspiracy theorists forget is that the proper way to test any hypothesis is to look for the falsifying evidence. Simply looking for bits of positive evidence to support a view one already has is just a way to reinforce one's prejudices. There is ample evidence that the attack on the Trade Towers could have been avoided, had the FBI, CIA, and the NSA shared the information they had on the perpetrators. This is clearly outlined in Lawrence Wright's book, The Looming Tower. It is enough of an indictment of our present administration that through incompetence, bureaucratic bungling, and "ass covering," the various arms of our government did not act to protect us. The secrecy of the White House in resisting a full and open debate on the events leading up to 9/11 is more likely the result, not of its being an "inside job," but of its being the consequence of bone-headed ignorance and incompetence in the highest reaches of our government.

Finally, flight 93...
Posted by: leftylawyer on Sep 18, 2006 5:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"But we know from cell phone conversations that passengers on board that plane planned on confronting the hijackers. "

I do not believe for 1 second that cell phones would work as alleged on flight 93.

» RE: Finally, flight 93... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Finally, flight 93... Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Finally, flight 93... Posted by: WILDSTARCHILD
» RE: Finally, flight 93... Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Finally, flight 93... Posted by: Conservasaurus
More BS!
Posted by: WhatNow? on Sep 18, 2006 5:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read about half the article. I could not read anymore of this garbage.

The south tower was damaged more than the north tower? From the footage you have to wonder whether the south tower's core was even touched and most of the fuel was ejected outside of the building.

From all the cooked up evidence for the Iraq war, you do not believe the bush administration did ignore all evidence 9/11 might happen?

"Here's what the conspiracists believe:"

Is that section of this story anymore suspect than the government's explanation?

"we're supposed to believe that this incompetent Administration, which brought you Katrina, was somehow able to execute this grand conspiracy?"

Katrina's greatest devastation was caused by neglect and a lack of funds for the levees. 9/11 succeeded because of what? government neglect?

I believe the bush administration knew it was going to happen via intelligence they had. Being the greedy and cold hearted opportunists they are, I think they let it happen. 9/11 was the day the 2000 coup turned bloody. It served their interests immensely.

Were there explosives planted in the building? Hell if I know. Controlled demolition is as much plausible as the pancake theory. The collapses do seem awful neat and tidy.

Here is an article that expresses what I have felt for five years.
Two Axioms of 9/11
Mr. Manuel Valenzuela is an excellent writer. This article would make an excellent speech.

As for rothschild, I do not believe I will waste any time reading any thing he writes again.

BEEN THERE, DONE THAT Pt I
Posted by: LMNOP on Sep 18, 2006 5:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've seen this same article more or less last June here on Alternet when it was entitled 9/11: Wild Conspiracies and Rational Concerns

The readers responses are worth reviewing as they are similar to these. And, as with this article, the readers seem more informed and compelling than the author's.

Also, I find dainin's anaylsis a few posts above this one more compelling that the author's. And anybody who uses the level of condendescention that this author does with regard to the allegations because they imply a conspiracy - beginning with the title. "Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already",

I don’t trust anyone who uses the term conspiracy theory to discredit a hypothesis and its source.

These were my posts then. Nothing has changed:

----

What's all the fuss about? You know all that you need to know alraedy.

So what whether Bush et al. were actually behind 9-11? What matters is that we know for an iron clad fact (all argument s of "you don't know what blah blah blah" aside - yes, I do know!) that they would have if they had thought of it and that they thought that they could pull it off.

Furthermore, who that hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid would doubt for a nanosecond that these sociopaths wouldn't do it in the future? That's all that matters. You want people that consider such tactics abhorrent and immoral, not just merely too hard for them.

I never need to know for certain just how complicit these villains were. I know how depraved they are, and that says everything that I or you need to know. Is there anybody who doubts that knowing how it turned out that the Bush-babies would have lifted a finger to prevent it?

Do you think that if they had the opportunity to push it along that they would not because it was immoral? Or that if Wolfowitz or some other neocom golem came to Cheney and Rumsfield with blueprints for a 9-11 all worked out in detail that they would bristle at the thought or report such people to the authorities?

[Conspiracies happen everywhere and all of the time. Any idea arrived at by two or more people speaking privately is a conspiracy. In the benign sense, a surprise birthday party is a conspiracy.]

Conspiracy theory? Who would make the suggestion that conservatives would meet behind closed doors and make secret plans? That's what a conspiracy is. Does that kind of thing ever happen, or do you suppose that the party of transparency has all of its meetings in public forums?

What kind of imbecile would doubt that there are 500 conspiracies being considered or implemented [in America] TODAY [or that most of them come from people who call themselves Republicans]? Don't be ashamed or afraid of a conspiracy hypothesis. Be ashamed if you don't consider it a possibility. Embarrassing you for even suggesting it is a powerful proactive technique.

--------and--------

So, the author implies that because he cannot PROVE from a distance that the administration was complicit in 911, that to think otherwise is "rank conspiracy theory, unsupported by any serious evidence". What constitutes serious evidence. The posters above have made compelling cases that bear further investigation by somebody with the power of subpoena and the will and ability to evaluate this matter, something which anybody familiar with this administration knows hasn't been done yet. Isn't that more evidence of complicity?

Couldn't I say the same thing about global warming? It's unproved, so it's rank speculation. Isn't that the right's usual comment?

(CONT.)

» RE: BEEN THERE, DONE THAT Pt I Posted by: DoctorAndy
Maybe we do "need" to "make it up"
Posted by: tkwilson on Sep 18, 2006 5:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are deeply involved not only in a real literal ground war here, but also an information and psychological war, at home and world wide.
Just as the neo-con political operatives who "progressives" see themselves in opposition too, clearly twist, distort and withold the facts (or is that a conspiracy too, Mr. Rothschild?), maybe the rest of us have a need to wage an information war of our own.
At times it would seem it's the only thing we can actually do, lacking other means of force.

So, if we find ourselves needing to cultivate an atmosphere of distrust and anger at the government by employing questions about 9/11, what's it too ya, Mr. Rothschild?

Actually, the neo liberal left/ progressives have missed the boat quite often up til 9/11 and the oil war.
They let Waco, Ruby Ridge and OK City go by with nary a peep since they didn't like the politics of the alleged bad guys involved (personally, any Attorney General responsible for BBQ'ing 84 men, women and children is a bad guy in my book; as is a sniper who blows a nursing mothers face off).

What I do know is that both the Twin Towers and the Murrah building were crime scenes and I think the manner in which they were investigated is open to question.
How an investigation is conducted (or not) will tell you loads about the motivations of the investigators. You don't need a conspiracy to let "what you're looking for" blind you to "what is".
The official, enforced, line on most of the governments actions is still a crock of disingenous shit. That's the issue , Mr. Rothschild.
We may not know exactly what we're being lied to about; but we know we're being lied to, and we're sick of it.

» Not too far out Posted by: fifthworld
Two Axioms of 9/11
Posted by: WhatNow? on Sep 18, 2006 5:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two Axioms of 9/11

My apologies. I made a mistake on the link I previously posted.

9/11 just a toxic mix of incompetence and bad foreign policy
Posted by: Bobsays on Sep 18, 2006 5:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't believe it was a conspiracy by Cheney. As evil as he is, it doesn't take a leap of imagination to see that such a thing can happen.

Rice's pathetic excuse making is just a classic case of a bureaucrat covering their ass. That memo had all the clues and it could have been acted on.

US foreign policy led to the rise of this threat, and anyone who was paying attention to two decades of attacks on US interests can tell you, it was building up for a biggy.

Bush and his friends did exploit it for their own advantage. I have always believed that a coalition government should have been formed on September 12 to address the defence of the US. The fact that this has remained a partisan issue, has been highly damaging. Like in WWII, this should have been a total national effort, bringing together all politicians.

The 'truthers' are nut cases and are avoiding addressing the real issues.

The truly progressive position should be to advocate for a non-partisan coalition government that tackles both this problem and global warming, two great dangers.

» Spelling Posted by: brunowe
fan43fever
Posted by: fan43fever on Sep 18, 2006 5:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When so called "Progressives" like Mr. Rothschild insist on denying the truth slapping them in the face, it is no wonder our country is in deep you know what. And I don't see any way out. Our country is finished, we are now the North American Union. This is never talked about and why talk about it now, it's too late. Mr. Rothschild, please seek out the truth of 9/11, it's all over the place. I'm truly sick to my stomach, our country has been taken over and no one cares. Yeah, it's a bad deal, the so called leaders of this country did this. I don't like it either, it makes me physically ill, but I don't bury my head in the sand and deny it. Eisenhower warned people about this in Jan. 1961. People buried their heads in the sand and thought if they ignored the problem it would go away. Well guess what Mr. Rothschild, it didn't go away. People of your generation and people like you are responsible for the mess we are having to live with now. And with people like you continuing to deny the obvious, there's no way we will ever get our country back. Count me out of AlterNet as of this morning and the Progressive, Mr. Rothschild. I don't need people like you in my life, I have enough to deal with, thanks to blind people like you.

Rothschild does not understand the nature of P2OG actions
Posted by: verite on Sep 18, 2006 5:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because Osama may have been involved does not mean that he was not part of a P2OG exercise. The patsies never know who they are really working for. Busch himself is a patsy enough and would not have to be informed of the reality.
Rothchild needs to go a little deeper and research and think a bit more widely.

Main general argument against this item was written at
http://onlinejournal.com/archive/06-17-02_Binion.pdf
in June 2002.
One major problem not mentioned is that the half-trained, alleged hijackers - the failed "pilots" would not have been able to make the moves required. This has been agreed by experienced real professional pilots who fly these models.
Building 7 is also a problem. Maybe Rothschild never saw the video of the collapse. The rooftop structure goes first. Secondly if 25% was blown by the blast, why does it drop neatly and vertically down?
Another problem is the failure to trace the airline stock profit links.
The Bin Ladens being the only people in the US allowed to fly out is another niggling issue.
Rothschild is a victim of professional imperialism himself in that he thinks common sense of ordinary folks is of no value, but his biggest problem is his fear of a possible awful truth that keeps most of the US people in denial.. except many of those who lost family members, who are more motivated to try to answer all the unanswered and avoided questions.

anthny
Posted by: tap on Sep 18, 2006 5:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since the greatest conspiracy of our time took place in 1963. American people did not do there follow through on who conspirated what, a lot of things fell through the cracks.
This was the coup d' etat that happened before our eyes and was left for dead. Movie Producer Oliver Stone did a great movie to provoke some people to move on it.
All people who beleive in conspricies are nuts and should have there passes revoked from the institutions they were on leave from. Of all great lies, Joseph Goebbles used to say the bigger the lie the more people will beleive it. And of course what we have here is exactly what propagandists want!
I doubt that we will ever get to the truth of the matter, but we should not stop trying. Just because of a couple of scientists saying that air pressure from the weight from the above floors caused the puffs of smoke. There is proof of an expolsion from eye-witness's.
And the most scary part of the whole conspirscy is that a BUSH was in charge of security for the twin towers.
And DICK CHENEY was running war games of planes running into skyscrapers the same day of said conspriacy.
NORAD the most expensive defenesive plan that the U.S. had in effect since the beginning of the cold war did not work in our favor, and the planes that were to shoot down the perps were somewhere over northern Canada.
Do these 3 simple things make a consparcy? I have my doubts but, this might be the beginning of something big and of course the put orders on the airliners that day made a few people very rich.

» RE: anthny Posted by: Lauren
9/11 and Galileo
Posted by: tiellis on Sep 18, 2006 5:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 1610, as we all know, Galileo looked through his telescope at the moon and Jupiter, discovered craters and mountains on the moon, and moons encircling Jupiter, and drew the obvious conclusion: as above, so below. Just as the moons orbit around Jupiter, so our moon orbits the Earth, and so the Earth orbits the sun. And his subsequent calculations proved this beyond any reasonable doubt.

Obvious, right? Not to the Catholic Church, the reigning ideological hegemon of their time, for whom these observations and what they implied were deeply threatening to the "official story" on which their hegemony depended: that the Earth is the center of the universe, with everything else encircling it. So Galileo was arrested and silenced, and forced, on pain of torture, to recant.

Fast forward to today. Two jets fly into the Twin Towers, exploding in a quickly consumed fireball and starting widespread fires on 3-4 adjoining floors, while the building remains intact. The fires quickly turn to smoke--evidence that they are oxygen starved and cooling. Then suddenly, the buildings collapse totally and catastrophically into their own footprints at near freefall rate, despite the fact that the top third of the building was obviously less dense than the lower two thirds. The "official story," upon which the Bush hegemony depends, is that the towers collapsed because of the jets--and that therefore the Arab "terrorists" are attacking America, and that we must launch a "war on terror."

As with Galileo, the "official story" of 9/11 is the linchpin upon which the current hegemonic powers utterly depend for their legitimacy, for if proven to be false, their whole ideological schema, built on fear, paranoia, and jingoism, will simply collapse.

But Galileo's ideas survived his own silencing and humiliation, simply because they were the best available explanation for the observed phenomena. The same will happen, eventually, with the controlled demolition theory of the Twin Towers and Building 7. Any other explanation is rendered simply impossible by common sense and elementary science--by the First Law of Thermodynamics, which holds that energy output must equal energy input in any reaction.

As Hamlet says, "Foul deeds will rise/Though all the Earth o'erwhelm them, to men's eyes."

» RE: 9/11 and Galileo Posted by: heech
» RE: 9/11 and Galileo Posted by: Lauren
Repulsed by "Alter"Net
Posted by: americanx on Sep 18, 2006 6:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been an avid AlterNet reader for the past few years, but recently, I've found myself struggling to digest such inanity and drivel as this. And now AlterNet is funded and influenced by the very thing it has been speaking out against all this time. I am completely ashamed to spend my time here and view writings that are supposedly "progressive." Corporate sponsorship and open-minded thinking are not synonymous.

There seems to be no such thing as "integrity" in this abyss known as Cyberspace.

Farewell, Alternet.

» RE: repulsed by "Alter"Net Posted by: slowerpez
» RE: repulsed by "Alter"Net Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: repulsed by "Alter"Net Posted by: slowerpez
» RE: repulsed by "Alter"Net Posted by: YinRising
» RE: repulsed by "Alter"Net Posted by: Lauren
» RE: repulsed by "Alter"Net Posted by: spanky
» RE: epulsed by "Alter"Net Posted by: Conservasaurus
deliberate ... missinformation..Plausable denial
Posted by: dbaker on Sep 18, 2006 6:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The information regarding the attack was known but not acted upon! Thats as far as I'm willing to go with the Consperacy Theories.

Reality is: they whom screwed up now have complete control.

where/ when is it in their interest to screw up again, just before an election.

I hope I'm wrong.

It's all about the omissions, baby
Posted by: gourdman on Sep 18, 2006 6:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So now we worry that these "crazy" conspiracy theories are making all progressives look like loons, even though, in the past, right-wing conspiracies have been as common as left-wing defeats at the ballot box. Just go to the National Security Archive and see for yourself.

The author focuses on the structural damage sustained by the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. But HOW the trade center fell and what sort of damage the Pentagon sustained are just one aspect of the conspiracy debate. The author never addresses are other important issues, such as: 1) Why were the WTC and the Pentagon never treated as crime scenes? 2) Why have we not seen the video footage of the Pentagon attack, and why was there no aircraft debris? 3) What of Bush and Cheney's very odd behavior on 9-11?-- after all, they had received multiple warnings of an imminent attack! 4) Why were members of bin Laden's family allowed to be whisked out of the country, if bin Laden was supposedly the prime suspect? 5) Where are the passenger manfests for all flights involved in 9-11? 6) How is it that our multi-billion dollar air defense system failed to intercept a slow, hijacked passenger jet heading towards WASHINGTON D.C., and HOUR after the initial attack?

If you examine just a few aspects of the 9-11 attack and subject them to "scientific rigor," I suppose it's possible to say that the progressives are making much ado about nothing. There are plenty of "experts" who can also validate the Warren Report, and have your heard spinning as they give their detailed accounts of ballistics and trajectories. But anyone who has thought much he Kennedy assassination, or 9-11, understand that the truth lies not so much in what is said, but in what not said or examined. And then there’s the question of who benefits.

There is far too much oddness around 9-11, including Cheney’s growled warning that we should not look too deep into the events leading up to it. And the rewards of war in Central Asia have been huge for Bush cronies.

I submit that anyone willing to accept the official version of 9-11, or to offer an apology for the official version, is in fact “crazy as a loon.” After all, there’s no “proof” that the official version is any more correct that the conspiracy theory speculation, and there’s much in the weird behavior of the Bush camp that should give us pause.

» And... 7) Suspect timing Posted by: ordaj
We must take down the 9/11 myth
Posted by: EricVerlo on Sep 18, 2006 6:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The GOP is riding the high horse of 9/11. It must be unveiled! We can decry Iraq, Katrina, corruption, war crimes, illegality, ad nauseum. They'll reply 9/11, 9/11, 9/11.

Telling us to be quiet about 9/11 is like telling us we couldn't be anti-war in 2004. Bad advice. You're a moderate, who knows what other issue you're willing to cave on. Health care? Bill of rights?

Hmmm
Posted by: JohnnyM on Sep 18, 2006 6:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't believe everything the "experts" say...In Loose change there are experts who cite some opposite "truths" then your noted experts. If you want to go on a diet, you can find 2 "experts" who say the complete opposite to each other.

What about this; The bush admin. knew about the terrorists plot, did nothing to stop it, and subsequently used the press to confuse and distract, and used the attacks to adopt their overly-aggresive foreign policy. They didn't carry it out or plan it, they just let it happen. It's 5 years later and were still arguing about this. You're right, get over it!

Several conspiracists I know say 9-11 is where we can "get" Bush et al. I actually believe it's Iraq, since there was no link between Saddam and terrorists, no WMD's, and a clear oil-company agenda with Bush's first cabinet having 50 ex-oil- industry pigs on board. AND...most important of all... Daddy got embarrassed by Iraq back in the early 90's....

All of us "conspiracists" do not hold the same opinion.

» RE: Hmmm Posted by: lively56
Scarier Than Any Conspiracy
Posted by: NoPCZone on Sep 18, 2006 7:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The conspiracy-minded who still cling to their theories after all this time are either misinformed or not prepared to address the truth. Amy Goodman let some of these kind face the PM reporters/authors on an extended segment of Democracy Now! recently. The stuff just does not stand up to good science and fact-checking.

What is distressing is the fact that 9-11 could have easily been prevented if law enforcement and others from the feds on down would have done their jobs under the existing rules and laws. From state employees selling driver's licenses to people obviously not qualified to hold them, to state police who pulled over some of the hijackers (in Maryland, I believe), to flight schools that didn't perform even perfunctory background checks on people who were unlikely to be US citizens, to FBI officials who ignored reports from agents about very suspicious activities with some of the 9-11 gang, etc.

That's all before you begin to look at the failures of INS and others. If the people paid to protect us would have done their jobs competently and conscientiously, in accordance with the laws then on the books, these guys would have been snagged long before they could have done their evil deeds. Lots of people who have been well paid and funded to protect the public failed from the halls of power in D.C. right on down to inept, lazy and/or corrupt local officials.

We didn't need the 'Patriot Act' or all the rest. What we needed was a thorough a*s kicking and house cleaning of a whole list of agencies, bureaus and departments that were not using the laws, tools and authority they did have to protect public safety. Lackadaisical and inept administration and a criminal amount of negligence is what contributed to the unnecessary deaths of 3,000 people that September day.

The 'good enough for government work' attitude from those guilty of missing the many points of detection/intercept and those who were charged with their oversight and supervision are guilty of much more than the dereliction of duty.

Instead of firing the lazy, inept and ineffective in our law enforcement establishment; we gave them more money, authority and latitude. A couple of years later we can see that it has largely been wasted or poorly spent and we are not any safer due to their efforts and abilities. The same government that cannot enforce our immigration laws when hundreds of illegals line up in public places for day jobs all over our country are the same ineffective officials that failed our nation and are partially responsible for the 3,000 deaths that day. Our politicians call them heroes, the Barney Fifes of law enforcement, who couldn't ID UBL if he was drinking an Icee down at the local 7-11/Circle K. They are too busy busting poor kids for selling weed and such.

That's the scary part.

the irony is thick
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Sep 18, 2006 7:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A Rothschild saying "enough with the conspiracy theories." lol. I couldn't make this stuff up.

Bush sits there and tells lie after lie and no one does anything about it.

The guy could get up on national tv and say "our government has been hijacked by a criminal group of neocons who engineered the attacks of sept the 11th...."

and still there would be people who deny it. This Rothschild is one of those.

We're supposed to accept what ostensibly appears to be simple negligence and incompetence... because they want us to bury all the little fragments of information that don't fit that picture. No thanks. There's so much stuff under the rug that I'm tripping over it now.

» RE: the irony is thick Posted by: lively56
» RE: the irony is thick Posted by: Lauren
» Psychobabble Posted by: brunowe
Bush lets slip explosives used in 9/11 attack
Posted by: Brawner on Sep 18, 2006 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Did you catch Bush's speech lately when he admitted explosives were used in the destruction of the twin towers? See below:
In his press conference yesterday, George Bush said something about terrorist attacks that made us sit up and take notice. Check this out, especially at the emphasis added point:

"The bill I have proposed will ensure that suspected terrorists will receive full and fair trials, without revealing to them our nation's sensitive intelligence secrets. As soon as Congress acts on this bill, the man our intelligence agencies believe helped orchestrate the 9/11 attacks can face justice.

The bill would also provide clear rules for our personnel involved in detaining and questioning captured terrorists. The information that the Central Intelligence Agency has obtained by questioning men like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has provided valuable information and has helped disrupt terrorist plots, including strikes within the United States.

For example, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed described the design of planned attacks of buildings inside the U.S. and how operatives were directed to carry them out. That is valuable information for those of us who have the responsibility to protect the American people. He told us the operatives had been instructed to ensure that the explosives went off at a high -- a point that was high enough to prevent people trapped above from escaping."

» As long as we define our terms ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» It's lonely, too Posted by: sln70
» Sure it's weird ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Sure it's weird ... Posted by: helenwheels
» It was "food on your family" Posted by: YogiBear
First hand encounter with these bozos
Posted by: stevefuzzy on Sep 18, 2006 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had the displeasure of walking by the WTC site in the afternoon on 9/11, after all the ceremonies have concluded and dignitaries have left the scene. The place was packed by throngs of people, milling about, tourists taking pictures, etc.
There was a surprisingly large group of people arguing for the conspiracy; some holding placards that read "9/11 = Inside Job".
At some point I came across one gentlemen who was the sole voice of reason, and he was completely surrounded by these - clearly ignorant - people who were very vocally throwing questions at him. He very reasonably and calmly was fielding them, but naturally they did not really want to listen.
After a while I could not help myself and joined the fray, shooting down the more obviously dumb assertions they were making.
At some point I tossed out a question to them: why is it so much easier for them to believe that their government is capable of such evil deeds, but refuse to accept that there is an enemy abroad that is willing to perpertrate such attrocities against us?
The response of one of these guys was: "you must be Jewish, right?"

Before I knew it, the whole conversation switched to accusing the Zionists of controlling the media and the government, rambling about the poor Arabs, about the New World Order, etc.

These guys completely mistrust ANY of the news outlets, but have complete faith in the "last refuge of truth" (their words, not mine), which is the internet. I kid you not.

I walked away after an hour of trying to carry a reasoned discourse with these people, and finally gave up.

I have to say I was shaken by the experience. It was the first time I had come face to face with an emotional mob whose intelligence was distinctly lacking, and I realized that all the reason in the world will not make a difference with these folks.

Dark times indeed....

» Obscene conspiracies Posted by: fifthworld
» Ranting and raving Posted by: YogiBear
» bozos do abound! Posted by: Conservasaurus
9/11 Is the base for aggression
Posted by: rwa on Sep 18, 2006 7:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the islamophobic nonsense would be impossible if it weren't for belief in 9/11. To sell more wars it is essential to mantain the myth of self defense.

Comment by Patrick Seale:

"President George W Bush is coming under enormous pressure from Israel - and from Israel's neoconservative friends inside and outside the US administration - to harden still further his stance toward Iran. They want the American president to commit himself to bombing Iran if it does not give up its program of uranium enrichment - and to issue a clear ultimatum to Tehran that he is prepared to do so. They argue that mere rhetoric - such as Bush's recent diatribe, in which he compared Iran to al-Qaeda - is not enough, and might even be counter-productive, as it might encourage the Iranians to think that America's bark is worse than its bite.

Hard-liners in Israel and the United States believe that only military action, or the credible threat of it, will now prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, with all that this would mean in terms of Israel's security and the balance of power in the strategically vital Middle East.

Fears that Bush might succumb to this Israeli and neoconservative pressure is beginning to cause serious alarm in Moscow, Beijing, Berlin, Paris, Rome and other world capitals where, as if to urge caution on Washington, political leaders are increasingly speaking out in favor of dialogue with Tehran and against the use of military force.
The Iran problem is causing particular concern because it raises fundamental questions about the continued validity of the security doctrine Israel has forged over the past half century. A central plank of this doctrine is that, to be safe, Israel must dominate the region militarily and be stronger than any possible Arab or Muslim coalition.
Another cause of anxiety for Israel's right wing - the settler movement, the nationalist-religious parties, the Likud and the right-dominated Kadima - is that Israel is coming under increasing international pressure to negotiate with the Palestinians, with a view to the creation of a Palestinian state. Influential voices are calling for an international conference - a sort of Madrid II - to re-launch the peace process."

Follow the money trail for phony "left wing" publications & organizations
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Sep 18, 2006 7:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is interesting how far the tenticles of the Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, Carlyle Group and others reach using "liberal" foundations to fund them.

Poppycock! I saw the explosions with my own eyes as did firemen....
Posted by: Prophit on Sep 18, 2006 7:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.... on site and I have a link to video filming WHILE THE ENTIRE THING WAS GOING ON AND YOU CAN HEAR THE RESCUE WORKERS SCREAMING "ANOTHER BOMB" we have to get these people out of here. If you can watch this video of rescue workers ALL STATING THERE WERE THREE BOMB EXPLOSIONS IN THE BASEMENT AS THEY ARE TRYING TO RESCUE PEOPLE AND STILL BELIEVE THIS A*S AND HIS ARTICLE THEN YOU ARE WILLING TO BUY A REAL CONSPIRACY THEORY THAT IS A JOKE.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3249714675910247150

I am shocked they are using this site for this poppycock. Who else had the expertise to coodinate this attack with such sophistication in timing and technical accumen??? Not the bumbling car bombing muslims.

He gives an explanation of the windows being blown out and puffs of smoke but HE DOESN'T SAY A WORD AS TO WHY IT WAS FROM THE GROUND UP WHICH IS WHAT I SAW THAT DAY LIVE. Marvin Bush was head of security for the towers. Billions were paid out to Silverstein. THE PENTAGON OFFICIALS LIED TO THE 9-11 COMMISSION AND THE ARABS MADE THEM DO THAT????? I DON'T THINK SO!

Then you have Cheney playing 5 different war games that very same day with the very same scenario as the actual attack, you have FEMA in NY the night before, you have a whole week of firedrills and the weekend before for three days you have a black out and powerdown in the building which never happens but you need in order to plant demolition explosions. GIVE ME A FRIGGEN BREAK.

TOOO MANY COINCIDENCES. If you believe in Occums Razor, then the simplest explanation for all of this is BUSH/CHENEY DID IT. That simple and the only thing that explains all of the coincidences.

This election coming up must be important, more so than at anytime since our nations beginning, because this coordinated level of disinformation everywhere is unbelievable. What do they have planned for us if they get their majority back in??:?? I can imagine.

» Occam Posted by: fifthworld
» Dohhh!! Posted by: fifthworld
Now I'm sure
Posted by: Idunno on Sep 18, 2006 7:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With all the government shills coming out lately to expound that "conspiracy nuts" are barking up the wrong tree, I am now convinced that we have the coon treed and ready to shoot. I've seen the photos of the 20 foot hole in the pentagon before the collapse. I've seen the only three buildings in history to fall at free fall speed because of fire. What about Bushes brother and cousin being on the board of directors for the security company that provided security for the WTC? There are over 100 other glaring anomalies and amazing coincidents that point to an inside job. The "crazies" have come up with such billiant big fat horrible lie that no one can dare believe it is a lie dare we destroy the patriotism that has grown in our hearts. "Rothschild", I'd tear your heart out with verbage, but I'm running late for work.

Conspiracy Fact
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Sep 18, 2006 7:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have listened to the voice mail recordings of people who were in the 2nd tower. They said stuff like

"We're fine here."

"I don't know if they're going to send us home."

And they were saying these things long after NORAD knew there was another hijacked plane. And what did they do with that information? Not a damn thing apparently. So it appears our government is directly responsible for the majority of the deaths on the day of 9/11. (And I won't even mention the deaths caused by the toxic cloud...)

Could osama bin laden have prevented NORAD from doing it's job?

For chrissakes NORAD had an open line to the president and therefore also had an open line to the emergency command bunker in NYC that morning. Yet the people in the 2nd tower weren't evacuated.

There is a standard procedure to follow in the event of a catastrophic system failure .... complete reboot and full diagnostic. Such huge failures demand that the whole system be taken apart and looked at. If they had done that then there wouldn't be any credible "conspiracy theories" floating around. I believe they would have found something much worse...

...but it's not necessary to continue that line of thought, is it? This article is basically saying the same thing:

"don't go there."

"please don't threaten my wonderful corporate power structure."

"whatever happens, please let the blame fall on one patsy or another. Bush or bin laden it's all the same to me and the other elites. We'll hang one of our own if we have to, but we can't let the whole house of cards come crumbling down."

» RE: Conspiracy Fact Posted by: Corps_8_my_baby
a more nuanced argument using major media
Posted by: seditiousj on Sep 18, 2006 7:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a skeptic by nature. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman and the bullet was magic after Stone convinced me otherwise after lots of reading.

Most of the 9/11 conspiracy theories I'll completely agree with Mr. Rothschild are utterly unbelievable and incredible. While it's taken me a long time to get here, I honestly do believe today that the Bush Administration had sufficient, actionable intelligence to have prevented 9/11 (even Thomas Keane has shared as much), but failed to act. Worst yet, I've arrived at the conclusion that they deliberately ignored that intelligence.

I thought I'd refer readers to a blog I posted on this topic in which I substantiate this argument with plenty of major media articles and do not rely at all on the fringe press. Essentially, what drives me crazy are Coleen Rowley's allegations in her memo Time reprinted, Mossaoui's arresting agent Harry Samit's 70 appeals to FBI headquarters to search the laptop that were ignored, the FBI's official rationale for why they wouldn't search the laptop (given case law, I find their rationale specious), and the contradiction of French intelligence to the FBI's claim that they didn't have specific information linking Moussaoui to Al Qaeda (which French intelligence asserts they did provide to the FBI). Read all of the linked articles. I speculate a bit regarding motive, but by and large, I don't think anyone can question whether this administration deliberately ignored intelligence that would have and could have prevented 9/11. I think to euphemize the deliberate negligence of this administration as intelligence failures is to revise history.

So, read this blog, and watch the linked docs...

So, the comment editor won't let me hyperlink this URL because it's too long, so I'm just going to have to break it up. Just re-assemble it in your browser window with copy/paste.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?
fuseaction=blog.view&friendID
=40757791&blogID=108416171
&Mytoken=54D5812D-3D67-48F2
-BE818862DD8C292F576015406

UBER-NET
Posted by: Roverton on Sep 18, 2006 7:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
9/11 could have been prevented if we only had all the additional paranoid security in place that this administration wants either way. Militarism wins either way.

YAY!

» RE: UBER-NET Posted by: Lauren
» RE: UBER-NET Posted by: Roverton
enough already of COVERUP!!!
Posted by: cold2touch on Sep 18, 2006 7:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just go to Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta's testimony before National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States.
Would you call them one-eyed conspiracy loonies?
Scroll down to this:
MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And --

And something else ... less than 12 hours after this testimony, Norman Mineta resigned as Transportation Secretary.

Let Rotschild explain that as a natural event, move on folks, nothing to see here ...

» RE: enough already of COVERUP!!! Posted by: Iconoclast421
cynical
Posted by: jheast on Sep 18, 2006 7:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of these arguments (author and commentors) are excellent. The bottom line for me is, Who Knows What Really Happened on 911? The fact that it took 444 days to convince the Bush administration that an investigation was necessary boggles the mind. The funding for the investigation was a table scrap compared to the independent investigations of Bill Clinton's sex life! I don't know what really happened, but when an administration balks at an open investigation, we know we're doomed. It leaves a rational person to wonder what the American public isn't to know. Since the entire world knows that our government is whacked, why care if there's more corroborating evidence about their ineptness? I, too, think there's a cover up. Finally, you can blame this administration all you want, but I haven't seen many Democrats falling on their swords over the past 6 years. Ultimately, every system of our government is broken, and we need to take our country back. Never forget that our founding fathers developed the constitution on a principle that governmental leaders were NOT to be trusted.....

Again, Alternet, whose pocket are you in, No doubt in my mind! No contributions from me!
Posted by: ScottGregory on Sep 18, 2006 7:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The idea that WTC bldg 7 had 25 % of its face "scooped out" is utter crap. The Building had only two small fires on floors more than 5 apart. The building collapsed in free fall, in footprint, which it would not have done from an impact collapse, in seconds after the fireman were pulled from the structure. I have not seen a single fireman report on any serious impact damage to that strtructure prior to its collapse.
This article is a pack of LIES, and more ruling-class disinformation, helping to cover up one the greatest crimes against humanity perpetrated by a governemnt against its own people.

» Who is lying here? Posted by: YogiBear
» Circular reasoning Posted by: brunowe
» Kool-Aid Minds Posted by: Hal
This is where Barbara Olson is
Posted by: LoisC on Sep 18, 2006 7:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read this story and you will see that Barbara Olson was arrested in Europe. It's hard to have that happen if she died on 9/11 isn't it?

9-11 crash victim Barbara Olson arrested in Europe
http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/OlsenArrested.htm
Germany--September 22, 2005

Just thought I would pass that along, as it does make you question where everyone went after that day, and who helped them get out of the country, etc.

thermite and molten steel
Posted by: baldo on Sep 18, 2006 7:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not going to waste words on ridiculing the pathetic attempts of Matthew Rothschild to dicourage our will and need to find the truth about what really happened on 9/11.
Just watch the videos below on such controlled demolitions, well worth your time.

http://www.911weknow.com/

thank U

Jim Fetzer's rebuttal (st911.org)
Posted by: fifthworld on Sep 18, 2006 8:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is perfect - a good "talking point" too:

[courtesy www.scholarsfor911truth.org -- can't post it all here; go to site and scroll down for response to Rothschild]

9/11 Was a Conspiracy: Get over it!
by James H. Fetzer

To listen to Matthew Rothschild ("Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracies, Already", The Progressive, 14 September 2006), anyone who thinks that 9/11 was a conspiracy is profoundly irrational and unscientific. According to the government's official account, 19 Islamic fundamentalists hijacked four commercial airliners, outfoxed the world's most sophisticated air defense system and committed these atrocities under the control of a man in a cave in Afghanistan. Since conspiracies only require two or more persons collaborating in illegal acts, the official account is a conspiracy theory. Which means that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and their colleagues, who advocate this theory, are profoundly irrational and unscientific.

While I might agree with that conclusion, it is not because they are advocating a conspiracy theory but because the theory they advocate is inconsistent with and refuted by the available relevant evidence. Rothschild claims, "some of the best engineers in the country have studied these events and come up with (what he takes to be) perfectly logical, scientific explanations for what happened". But experts in physics, mechanical engineering, civil engineering, and aeronautical engineering have arrived at different conclusions. The question is not whether 9/11 involved a conspiracy but what kind of conspiracy brought about 9/11.

Scholars for 9/11 Truth, a non-partisan society of experts, students, and faculty, which is dedicated to exposing falsehoods and revealing truths about 9/11, has discovered that the Twin Towers were designed to withstand the impact of large airliners; that most of the jet fuel was consumed in those massive fireballs; that UL had certified the steel used in their construction up to 2,000 degrees F for at least three to four hours; that the fires, oxygen starved, averaged only 500 degrees F; that they only endured for one and one-and-a-half hours; that the buildings were blown-up from the top down; that there is no source of energy that can explain it on the official account; and that they "collapsed" at a rate faster than free fall.

Rothschild cites the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) as his source, but he apparently has not visited our web site, st911.org, lately, or he would know that we have published several critiques of the latest from NIST at the top of our home page. Not only do these commentaries demonstrate that NIST has been "'faking it" and has no scientific foundation for its position but that the government is so insecure about the official account that, when invited to send a team of experts to debate a team from Scholars, NIST declined and conveyed the message that there were no circumstances under which it would participate in such an exchange. Rothschild didn't tell you, but then he probably doesn't even know.

Something he should know but doesn't mention is that President Bush recently acknowledged, during a press conference that was broadcast nationwide, that Saddam Hussein had "nothing to do" with 9/11. A recent Senate Intelligence Committee Report, widely reported in the media, has found that there were no links between Saddam and Osama. Indeed, two months ago, the FBI admitted it had "no hard evidence" relating Osama to the events of 9/11, a development Ed Haas first reported in THE MUCKRAKER REPORT and that Carol Brown of INN WORLD REPORTS confirmed. If neither Saddam nor Osama was responsible for 9/11, who carried out the attacks? The American people are entitled to know... [see site above for rest]
James H. Fetzer, Ph.D.

Founder and Co-Chair
Scholars for 9/11 Truth

» Ahhh, but Posted by: fifthworld
Disagree
Posted by: vkobaya on Sep 18, 2006 8:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Primary is that the Bush administration explanation for 9/11 is a far worse, more improbable conspiracy theory than even claiming the buildings were blasted by Klingon Birds of Pray. This administration has demonstrated they are perfectly capable of evil on a scale far worse than this, the mass and serial murder of tens or hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Aftghani people.

Second, find it offensive that you would accuse us of lying. Bush is the liar, not us. Those of us who believe 9/11 was an inside job, sincerely believe that, not because of the sort of divisive partisan politics that this administration takes as standard opperating procedure. What next? Are you going to bring charges in court against those of us who believe Bush committed the 9/11 attrosities, maybe imprison us and cut off our rights? Why don't you openly declare that you are working for Bush? Not honest enough?

Bush is the enemy. If you think we are liars, may be you'd better examine why you would throw seriously damaging accusations against your own side. Even if we are wrong, looking at the evil this gang of crooks from hell are, our motives are sincere. We are not LIARS.

» RE: Disagree Posted by: Ranillon
» RE: Disagree Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Disagree Posted by: Ranillon
» RE: Disagree Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Disagree Posted by: fifthworld
Conspiracy Defined
Posted by: BuckFush on Sep 18, 2006 8:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems this so called progressive writer has no idea what the actual definition of conspiracy is. So thanks to our friends at dictionary.com, here it is.

1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

It is in vogue to label anybody who questions the 9/11 bullshit spoonfed to us by the mass media and their puppet masters (GOP Authoritarians in power) as a crazy conspiracy theorist. Anybody who is willing to read about the facts of that day knows that not everything adds up. You don't have to be a math teacher to know that, just literate.

9/11 was most certainly a conspiracy of the grandest proportions, it is just that the GOP Authoritarians were quick to define the conventional wisdom regarding that day, while the rest of us were shocked and awed into submission. But the truth has a funny way of making itself known.

» RE: Conspiracy Defined Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Conspiracy Defined Posted by: Prophit
Meteor
Posted by: maolson on Sep 18, 2006 8:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rothchild's research seems to have amounted to, "I made a few calls myself.."

Sorry, you are not even in the game.

Why would a non-expert...
Posted by: meetmeineleusis on Sep 18, 2006 8:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
use the non-expertise of others as a point of criticism?

Who is Tim Osman?
Posted by: 911 truther on Sep 18, 2006 9:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
google it

nice try Rothschild and AlterNet
Posted by: kellysgarden on Sep 18, 2006 9:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nice try but I can't quite swallow Rothschild's logic when he concludes that IF the alternate theories were true, it would have taken literally thousands of people to pull off, yet somehow he espouses the government's theory that ONE guy in a cave can somehow organize NINETEEN Saudi hijackers with boxcutters to accomplish what would take thousands of government insiders to accomplish. Also, is Rothschild related to the Illuminists? With a name like that, coupled with his defense of the official government conspiracy theory, one has to wonder.

» How many people Posted by: fifthworld
Left Right
Posted by: sonex on Sep 18, 2006 9:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Left or right it's all the same in america, bought and sold all of them, even the ''alternative media''. Time to get off this roller coaster and demand real change, it is becoming apparent that 911 truth is the key.

Progressives Ask Questions - Three Stages of Truth
Posted by: JDroz on Sep 18, 2006 9:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it increasingly alarming that "progressive" sites like Alternet decide to decry the act of asking tough questions about the events of 911. It is our civic and national duty to ask these questions about possible government involvement of that most destructive of days. Just look at the series of events that have happened since. None of the wars/invasions, privacy issues, civil rights, torture, breaking of international treatises etc., would have been remotely possible without those attacks.

Progressives ASK QUESTIONS. The author of this article is ont a 'progressive' as he has so said. He is just an ignoramus. Each one of us should do the research for ourselves and then decide if there should be a truly "Independent Investigation" of 911.

As the 19th Century German philosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer decreed:

"The Truth comes in three stages...
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Finally, it is accepted as self evident."

We are quickly approaching the second phase. Americans need to remove their faith-bias, and realize that governments in power only stay that way if they are truly ruthless.

Tat tvam asi.

this guy is a progressive?
Posted by: mnlefty on Sep 18, 2006 9:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's so strange someone writing for a progressive magazine would be so quick to criticize those of us who choose not to eat up what the Bush Administration is trying to feed us. If you look back at videos from that day, there are Trade Center employees, janitors who were in the basement, firemen, police who all talk about strange explosions in the lower levels of the building, and there are quite a few professional engineers, architects, etc. who question the probability of all three buildings tumbling down exactly the same. One tower was damaged pretty severely, one tower wasn't as bad, and Building 7 was not hit at all. Yet all three fell in exactly the same manner. Just because there are some people out there saying it's not unusual that the buildings fell like that, doesn't mean they magically outweigh the people who doubt the official story. Maybe you could submit this article to a conservative think tank.

To those thinking of leaving alternet
Posted by: heech on Sep 18, 2006 9:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Altenet is posting an amazing amount of crap. But this place really shines because of the clarity and insight of the posts by the readers.

Please don't leave! Keep posting! Keep arguing!

There's a great deal to be learned from reading the insightful, intelligent, reasoned counters to the mass media drivel that "alter"-net is now spewing.

Maybe we should start flooding the editor with letters demanding better content and a justification for why they are now taking money from big corporate interests.

At the very least we should demand that they read the comments of their readers and start giving us something realistic instead of 5th grade headlines and poorly formed polemics.

If Alternet was smart they'd stop trying to fill every bit of white space on the page every day and start looking to real writers (maybe some of the comment writers here) for real material that has substance and thought.

Rothshield's Rant Is Outrageously Wrong
Posted by: starhelix on Sep 18, 2006 9:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What Matthew Rothshield leaves out of his blowhard hyper-bloviation about alleged 9/11 "conspiracy theories" is the undeniable fact that George's Bushit story defies the natural laws of physics and aerodynamics. The article leaves out the fact NO steal framed building has EVER collapsed due to fire. The article leaves out the simple fact the pancake theory is impossible. Towers I and II each had 47 gigantic interior box columns, some of the strongest ever made. The article never cites any peer reviewed professional document supporting his position. While he says there's enough evidence the Bush mob is a bunch of liars, there's also enough evience in the public record to prove the official story is false. Why should Mr. Rothshield or anyone else be against a thorough and conflict-of-interest free investigation of the actual facts in the 9/11 case? Every patriotic American should find this question to be worthy of consideration. It's time to get to the bottom of what really happened on 9/11. The actual evildoers should be arrested, tried and punished. There's nothing less than the future of our great nation at stake. It's time to end the bitter commentary and support the pursuit of truth, justice and the American way toward peace.

Are any of you conspiracy theorists engineers?
Posted by: harrysf on Sep 18, 2006 9:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for your article Matthew.

Are any of you conspiracy theorists engineers?
Specifically, structural or mechanical or civil engineers?

I'm willing to bet that none or few of you are.

If any of you posters above are engineers (bachelors of science degree or higher), please add another comment indicating that you are.

Our daily lives depend on established scientific theory and engineering practice, which works very well more than 99.9% of the time (bridges, buildings, roads). You can't pick and choose when to believe in the laws of physics or thermodynamics -- they are in effect all the time. This is true regardless of how much you might believe in conspiriacies or distrust the government.

One simple fact that seems to be glossed over by the theorists is the low probability that ALL credible participants of such a massive coverup would keep quiet. When are the supposed insiders going to come out and admit they rigged explosives in the building etc.?

sincerely,
an engineer

» A rather motley lot Posted by: brunowe
» A fair point, but Posted by: brunowe
» Good Work! Posted by: sln70
» Of course - I'm one of them Posted by: theracerace
Is Rothschild a comedian?
Posted by: monkeywrench on Sep 18, 2006 9:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I started to write a point-by-point rebuttal to this article, but realized that it was a waste of time to counter what is a load of bilge. However, there is a laugher or two within it that tips off how desperate Rothschild is to "debunk" the conspiracy theories:
He states:
". . .if the Bush Administration plotters carried out 9/11 to justify attacking Iraq, why didn't they have Iraqi hijackers do the deed? In actuality, there was not a single Iraqi hijacker, and Bush propagandists had to do all sorts of gymnastics to link Iraq to the actual attackers."

This doesn't pass the laugh-o-meter! The hijackers had to be IRAQI so we could invade Iraq? For what possible reason?! We went after al Qaeda, a terrorist GROUP, and then quickly pulled back from that half-assed effort in Afghanistan and just rolled Iraq into "The War on Terror." It was simple as hell to convince a scared-s**tless population; it required almost NO "gymnastics" at that time.

He continues:
". . .for this conspiracy to have succeeded, it would have had to have been amazingly vast: not only the high level members of the Bush Administration (including the head of the Secret Service, Griffin says in Christian Faith) and the explosives teams, but also many others."

There are over 17,000 people in the federal witness protection program. Do any of them talk? No; because if they did, they would be hurt or killed by those they testified against. Presumably, those in the administration chosen would be in favor of the project, and as for the others, a little intimidation by a government that can do whatever it wants to individuals can go a long way toward keeping mouths shut. And the conspiracy would not have to be as "vast" as he claims; especially if the administration simply took advantage and coordinated their effort with what they knew al Qaeda was about to do. And, by the way, how much do we know about the actions of special forces teams? Nothing – because they do...not...talk about it.

He quotes Larry Silverstein as saying "pull it," meaning get the firefighters out. Larry said "pull IT," not pull "them." Unless he was being exceptionally rude to firefighters, he was referring to the building.

He cites investigators of the National Institute of Standards and Tehcnology as "debunking" the demolition theory. That's a government agency! What does anyone THINK they're going to say?! Don't forget: we've seen numerous instances where science has been perverted to political ends in this administration.

He cites the shoot-down of flt. 93 as a part of the conspiracy theory. What? Shooting down flt. 93 would be a logical action, conspiracy theory or not, once fighters FINALLY found a target threatening Washington. The real question Rothschild does not answer is where the hell our fighters were all day. That's because it is common knowledge that nearly all of them were conveniently on maneuvers in Canada and Alaska (could they be any farther from the East Coast and still be on the North American continent?) And it has been stated that the fighters that were on station "really moved" to their targets at 500 mph. Who are they kidding?! An F-15's top speed is close to 1,700 mph., THREE TIMES the loafing speed of attempted intercepts on 9/11. Even on "economy cruise" at Mach 2, an F-15 or F-16 can go from Andrews AFB to New York in roughly 10 MINUTES. Were were they?

Even disregarding the nearly-impossible, 1-in-250,000 chance that three buildings, each asymetrically damaged, would not topple, which is logical, but all fall neatly into their own footprints, there is so much that stinks about 9/11, and Rothschild's "debunking," that the reek extends from coast to coast – and at least a third of the population can smell it. If the rest only read more (and paid attention in their science classes), they'd smell it to. If they ever do, God help us.

The man with the white Texan hat
Posted by: Julian on Sep 18, 2006 9:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Readers will recall that famous photo of Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Osward to silence him, while a guard in a big white hat stood aside with a "Be my guest" gesture. He didn't shoot Oswald, Ruby did! I think of that guy when I think of the "911" outrage. No the US administration almost certainly didn't fly the planes into the towers. Like Ruby, Al Qa'eda did it. And like the man in the big white hat, the US administration stood aside. It was the result they needed.

Rothscild and others who recoil from the thought of official complicity refer again and again to "conspiracy theories" as if they are the product of irrational minds. Yes, people try to reconstruct the event from very scant evidence. Yes, reconstructions are conspiracy theories. Yes, they are boound to be wide of the mark because there is so little evidence in the public domain. But the most improbable conspiracy theory of all is the one peddled by the beneficiaries. Exposing the critical flaws in their conspiracy theory, pointing to cover-ups, stressing the "Cui bono" test which is standard in all police work ("who benefits?") need not at first posit a scenario for the event at all. The supposed "conspiracy theorists" are conspiracy DEBUNKERS - they punch holes in the conspiracy theory which we are all fed by those who have benefited so radically.
As for controlled demolition -- well, maybe. But those behind the events didn't really need it. Just the planes hitting a major American icon in the heart of America's greatest city was more than enough to make the point the perps -- Al Qa'eda or the PNAC crew or, most likely, both, needed to make.

Polls show around a third of the Amereical people (100 million!!) believe their government was implicated. This is because the White House's conspiracy theory is flawed to the extent of being hogwash.

Money from corporate interests
Posted by: Julian on Sep 18, 2006 9:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry to post twice in quick succession, but commens have been made about AlterNet taking funds from corporate interests and sure, that's a dangerous thing. But all of us who think that way need to put our money where our mouths are. AlterNet has been calling for donations and they can't run their service on air! Even as little as $20 a year from each reader would do a lot to enable AlterNet to be be free of big donors. Oh hell, now I'm going to have to put my money where MY mouth is!

Wow, what ego
Posted by: helenwheels on Sep 18, 2006 9:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This Rothschild has. In one article, he's debunked the entire conspiracy theory!

Puh-leeeeeaze.

Remember: A year ago, stolen and fraudulent elections was tinfoil hat territory. This week, even Faux News showed a demonstration on how Diebold machines can be hijacked.

I visited that Debunking site and I honestly didn't see much in the way of answers. Simply calling those experts who claim there was controlled demolition of the towers crazy doesn't quite do it for me.

ANSWER THIS!
Posted by: JCR on Sep 18, 2006 9:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two Questions for you Matt:

1. Where is your explanation for the "unbelievable" put options on American and United in the days leading up to 9/11? Oh and here's the proviso - let's hear a credible explanation not like this garbage issued by the US government:

"Allegation: 9/11 Revealed repeats long-standing rumors of “insider trading [based] on advance warnings of the attack.”

Facts: The 9/11 Commission examined this issue in detail, stating, in The 9/11 Commission Report (p. 499):

Highly publicized allegations of insider trading in advance of 9/11 generally rest on reports of unusual pre-9/11 trading activity in companies whose stock plummeted after the attacks. Some unusual trading did in fact occur, but each such trade proved to have an innocuous explanation. For example, the volume of put options – investments that pay off only when a stock drops in price – surged in the parent companies of United Airlines [UAL] on September 6 and American Airlines on September 10 – highly suspicious trading on its face. Yet, further investigation has revealed that the trading had no connection with 9/11. A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10. Similarly, much of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10 was traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, which recommended these trades. These examples typify the evidence examined by the investigation. The SEC [Security and Exchange Commission] and the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation], aided by other agencies and the securities industry, devoted enormous resources to investigating this issue, including securing the cooperation of many foreign governments. These investigators have found that the apparently suspicious consistently proved innocuous."
(Well, if the 9/11 Commission says so then it must be right!)

2. How do you explain this coincidence?

9/11 - US government is conducting wargames that same day.
7/7 - British government is conducts terrorist (patsy) drills involving the very metro line that was actually bombed that day!!

WOW - amazing coincidences wouldn't you say? We may not know exactly what happened but we could open another investigation based on the the THINGS THE 9/11 COMMISSION FAILED TO ADDRESS LET ALONE INVESTIGATE!!

time to let Griffin write a rebuttal in AlterNet
Posted by: kellysgarden on Sep 18, 2006 9:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We certainly can see what Alternet's stand on the 911 attacks is. They are against the Bush Administration, yet have decided to support government status quo in this subject. That in and of itself is suspicious. I call on AlterNet to be fair for once, and bow to the ethics of fair journalism, and let Griffin write a piece as a rebuttal for publication in AlterNet.

» This WAS the rebuttal Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: This WAS the rebuttal Posted by: Lauren
» RE: This WAS the rebuttal Posted by: spanky
» RE: This WAS the rebuttal Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: This WAS the rebuttal Posted by: spanky
A big YES but
Posted by: Edward George on Sep 18, 2006 10:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those crackpots are Democrat's greatest nightmare and every Democrat with access to the public media should not only disown them but point out exactly how they are lacking in common sense. (Fortunately the Republicans also have their crackpots and the guy with the bully pulpit courts them)

However there are some unresolved matters directly related to 9/11.

I am a retired engineer who spent years as a lead accident investigator. (In one investigation I had models built, instrumented them, set video cameras in place and burned them to record the progress of events until collapse.) The appropriate question is why didn't building occupants, firemen and policemen know what to expect if a large plane rammed the building?

Also - There seems to be considerable evidence that our government's CIA sponsered and built Al-Quada (by supplying money and training) fully aware of and encouraging their becoming a religiously fanatic terrorist group. Of course they intended to aim them at the Soviet Union, but apparantly just assumed they would disappear after the Soviet Union collapsed. The appropriate question is - Shouldn't the government release all information on this to the public so voters can judge for themselves the long range effect of extremist measures and the fallibility of the CIA?

» RE: A big YES but Posted by: babs
» RE: A big YES but Posted by: YogiBear
Unaddressed but Meaningful
Posted by: chamoru on Sep 18, 2006 10:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One thing that still bothers me is that normally, Ground Zero would have been a crime scene. Why would a crime scene be cleaned up and shipped off so rapidly and not studied at length? Also, what about the cameras that the FBI took away from all observable areas where there was a camera?

There are still some unanswered questions--and I will listen to any way that they can be explained away, but I do feel that the current administration is full of heartless, money-grubbing zealots who will do almost anything to get their way.

Argumentum ad Ignorantum
Posted by: cwdalzell on Sep 18, 2006 10:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm so sick and tired of hearing the twaddle that passes for fact coming out of the mouths of so-called liberal commentators like Rothschild. Mr. Rothschild, for your information,you do not KNOW anything. I dont' care how many "engineers" they get to say that things are how the administration wishes them to appear. "Experts" have a tendency to stroke their own egos by showing how "smart" they are even if it means concocting B.S. to show up the opposition. You do not have to be an engineer, physicist or anything else to know that a building that was designed to withstand the impact of a plane, that was not even hit (TC7),does not fall down because of a small fire. If that were the case then there would be buildingsfalling constantly in NYC.

But this is not the point. The point is that the 9/11 Commission report was not written by the commission. Anyone who knows anything about government committees, which apparently excludes Rothschild, knows that there is a staff that compiles and writes the report. The staff head here was a Bush plant!

The point is that the Bush administration stalled an investigation for months. The point is that questions have not been answered and arguments from ignorance do not suffice. The point is that the administration just went out of its way to create a fictional version of events concerning 9/11. the point is that you, mr. Rothschild, are an arrogant jackass that would dismiss the most blatant action if it did not jibe with your wishful version of reality.

There are 9/11 conspiracies that are Right-wing con-jobs. The Birchers are one group that push the idea that 9/11 was a government conspiracy. However, they say it was Clinton. There are many theories, some more credible than others. You, however, Mr. Rothschild, are perpetuating the biggest "theory" out there, i.e. the official story.

Explain one thing, Rothschild. Why does the Project for the New American Century have a policy paper put out one year before 9/11 suggesting that they needed a "new Pearl Harbor" to push their agenda. Just a coincidence right? Now explain why all of there other initiatives are under way or complete. The administration is populated with sickos who would never hesitate to sacrifice Americans for their own greedy nightmarish plans. That alone requires an investigation.

Lastly, Mr. Rothschild, you are woefully ignorant of history. The U.S. has done the same type of thing all over the globe, granted not to the dramatic effect. The facts are that global hegemony has returned home to eat its own makers and that is the Bush bottom line.

Either wake up and start reasoning or shut up! i don't know what happened that dreadful day and NEITHER DO YOU!

Here we go again.
Posted by: WitchyNy on Sep 18, 2006 10:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was 12 years old when President Kennedy was murdered.

My parents and grandparents sat transfixed to their TV and radio and newpapers.

Then Oswald was murdered.

The news started to imply that anyone who believed this was some kind of conspiracy...was just a nut, and that this kind of thinking could hurt the country. After days and days of this...nothing else was on TV...my progressive family started to say it too.

When I said "You mean that you all think- that the President is murdered- on TV-and then his murderer is murdered- on TV...and this is all just a coincidence?"

And they said, you are just a child, you don't understand these things, go and play.

And by the way- FEMA? As a example of expertise?
ARE YOU KIDDING???

What are the facts?
Posted by: M.E.Walsh on Sep 18, 2006 10:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with one idea, labeling something conspiracy theory destroys credibility. So what are the facts? Does anyone know? All sorts of scientific reports come out that prove all sorts of things for the people that are paying for them. Corporate power owns the scientific community, the government and the mass media.

The real fact is:
The Bush administration capitalized on a terrible situation and turned it around and used it to become imperialists against the will of a large majority of world's people. They treat the people of this country as if they are ignorant children, which maybe most of them are. So whether the Bush administration pulled the trigger, put the gun in some else's hand or simply looked the other way, they are still criminally and morally responsible. There is an alarming amount of double speak and misinformation coming out of our society as a whole. Maybe instead of spending time and resources chasing oil in a desert this country should use its power and status to come up with solutions to growing environmental and energy problems that aren't going to go away by ignoring them. The government is here to protect people from the free market, but right now the government is run by rich robber barrens of the free market. We need a separation of Dollar and State!!!!

Rothschild a shill?
Posted by: babs on Sep 18, 2006 10:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Third, for this conspiracy to have succeeded, it would have had to have been amazingly vast".

Gee, you mean not a small or uncomplicated task? like taking over the entire US government in a bloodless coup?

At least prophit and dinosaurus are happy that Rothschild is parroting them for a change. Opinion is free and worth about the same - on both sides.

Obfuscation aside - will anyone ever unravel the crimes of that day - or will Americans stop caring, like they stopped caring about the murder of JFK?

» RE: othschild a shill? Posted by: Lauren
we should believe a Rothschild? NOT
Posted by: harinama on Sep 18, 2006 10:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Give me a f-ing break. When it walks, talks and looks like a duck....IT'S A FUCKING DUCK.

WAY too many unanswered(purposefully) questions. Too much collusion, complicity and conspiracies to think this was anything but an inside job.

Christ they have audio of engineers saying to "PULL" building 7..we all know what that means.

9/11=21st century Reichstad. NOTHING will ever convince me of anything else. Anyone who still doesnt believe it after all the investigations(and the bs 9/11 commission), IS A FUCKING IDIOT.

WELCOME TO THE NEW FASCIST AMERICAN CENTURY.

bush is stupid
Posted by: madhermitt on Sep 18, 2006 11:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is frustrating to hear comments again and again about how the bush administration is incompetent.

It must be a huge coincidence that all of bush's incompetence have happened to increase executive power, change civil laws and hack up the constitution, It also must be luck that corporations have flourished, the ceo salary has increased, worker wages have stagnated and bush's cronies like halliburten and the carlye group have had record profits. I doubt the bush administration is fumbling with classic free market princibles, with huge cuts in social programs and pushes to privitize all!

By calling the bush administration incompetent, one is assuming that the bush administration(or the two party system in general) is working for the PEOPLE

» RE: bush is stupid Posted by: wililysunion
In the crazies' defense
Posted by: Elmowilcox on Sep 18, 2006 11:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
at least in regards to whether or not the one plane was shot down by the military....Rummy did happen to make a slip at a press conference in which he said something to the effect of "when the plane was shot down...um uh..I mean brought down by the passengers."(not an exact quote, but that was the gist of exactly how it was said) I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but that WAS kind of an odd Freudian slip as far as Freudian slips go.

» RE: In the crazies' defense Posted by: davesilvan
» RE: In the crazies' defense Posted by: Prophit
Thank you!
Posted by: Krotos on Sep 18, 2006 11:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The idea that 9/11 was a Bush/Neocon/Israeli/whatever conspiracy simply has not held up under serious scrutiny by qualified experts, and it's time for us progressives who respect science and can recognize how impossible it would realistically be to pull off such an operation and keep it secret to quit giving a pass to people who insist otherwise. They're making the rest of us look bad.

Bush et al. have certainly taken advantage of 9/11 to push their imperialistic foreign-policy agenda. There's no doubt about that. There's also little doubt that 9/11 probably could have been prevented if the Bush national security team hadn't been so catastrophically incompetent.

But the idea that they executed 9/11, or knew about it and allowed it to proceed, just doesn't hold water. It was an extremely unfortunate coincidence that 9/11 took place soon after neoconservatives who were hoping for such an event to legitimize their views came to power. But all the evidence points to it being just that -- a coincidence. In that respect, 9/11 was like the Reichstag fire, which historians now generally believe to have been set by a lone lunatic rather than by the Nazis.

As Mr. Rothschild said, there is no shortage of legitimate and accurate ways in which to paint Bush as one of the most profoundly corrupt, incompetent, and authoritarian presidents in American history. Continuing to trot out soundly debunked conspiracy theories just gives us less credibility in the eyes of the people whose opinions we are trying to sway.

And it looks like Mr. Rothschild's prediction that he would be accused of being part of the conspiracy himself have come true.

-K.Ai.-

» RE: (no)Thank you! Posted by: Corps_8_my_baby
Get Real Matthew! I Hope the CIA is Paying You Well for Your Treachery :) Pallas89juno@yahoo.com
Posted by: Pallas89 on Sep 18, 2006 11:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Bloggers:

Matthew Rothchild, Amy Goodman, Larry Bensky, Pacifica.org, KPFA, and Goddess knows how many others are obvious CIA agents or are organizations infested with US psyops agenda's wittingly or not. These covert operatives or otherwise conditioned individuals are not stupid. It's obvious that they do not work for the PEOPLE. Revolution, media takeover (as is done in most struggles outside of the US that WORK or accomplish anything real) must happen and should have happened much sooner--like as early as during Reagan's reign of TERROR against labor and workers.

911 Why? How? What? Where? When? Well, the information is there and not hard to find and way not hard to verify and cross reference critically. I'm going to suggest those who are incredulous to do some real research. If you had even performed deep and nihilistic analyses, your conclusions could not indicate anything BUT false flag realities. If someone doesn't have critical consciousness sufficient to triangulate the salient realities of 911 from an ocean of deeply investigated and vetted ecologic sources then THEY have intellectual issues are not scientific and not logical in their intellectual functioning. I'm very tired of the impossibly irrational 911 false flag naysayers. Get a life! Grow some tits or balls! Think independently and open your eyes. I believe it's time for those of us who know better to adopt a condescending tone with these irrational children. Why not! Why should we coddle the cognitively dissonant no matter what the source of their utterly baffling intellectual defects.

Obviously, 911 was a false flag operation and a very sloppy one leaving a trail of irrefutable evidence that hasn’t taken years of careful research to uncover. It was obvious from the beginning. The powers that be know they can get away with it and have so far due to effective psy-ops emphasizing dumbing down, disinformation, desensitization, distraction, etc., over the past 26 years in particular. Anyone who travels broadly is aware that the media climate in the US is a factory farm ocean of overwhelming, diarrhea-like manure fed by shitstreams of disinformation from every media venue—now owned virtually en toto by only 6 corporations. (50 about 20 years ago) Americans are now at their most amnesiac, ADD, taught to have ZERO sense of the big picture of any topic by and large. This critique of US Americans, includes especially the celebrities and non-celebrity tiny minority of left thinkers in general. Not one of Matt's refutations make any logical or scientific sense and do not actually perform the function of "debunking". There was not one iota of defensible data/research included in his piece. A more obvious shill for the power elite would be hard to imagine. Isn’t anyone else wondering why mags like The Progressive and The Nation, which are supposedly left (for the people) mags would adhere overall to such irrational 911 viewpoints? The history of false flags is well known. This is not opinion; but fact. Every major and most minor open US Military operations have been predicated on false flag operations, including WWII, Korea, and Vietnam and probably going back at least as far as the Maine incident in the Spanish American “War” Conflict. These are all clearly documented false flag influenced events--with even deeper roots in constant and well organized strategies of the wealthy to abuse the non-wealthy/workers. The wealthiest have never done anything but organize to take back whatever we've forced them to give us. Otherwise, the wealthiest simply out and out steal from everyone everywhere not defending themselves against the designs of these capitalist despots whom operate openly or behind the scenes. The preparation for 9/11 is consistent, long and documented and traceable beginning at least as early as the Oklahoma City bombing and probably well before this. Space prevents more comment, Ciao, Frank Snapp Oakland

Refuting claims that have solid logic and reasoning b/c you don't agree is wrong
Posted by: JBravoEcho11 on Sep 18, 2006 11:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To refute some of your claims in the question section:
1) for the squibs, they are a hallmark sign of demolition but anyways. If air pressure was the cause why is it so much farther below the actual destruction? Why aren't the squibs the larger (they're very focused and not spread out as a collapse concussion would be)? Also why is the air colored (collapses do emit air that blows out windows but it is hardly the distinct color seen in the photos)? The pattern of the squibs is allow far too symmetrical to be the random air pockets being pushed through the windows.

2) I don't see any legitimate "theorists" using this as a prime example of foul play so I'll skip it.

3) True it may have received damage but it was also the farthest away and other WTC buildings were damaged much worse than lucky #7.

4) First of all, many "conspiracy theorists" are in contention with the real conspiracy theorists on this point. But there was an article debunking Purdue's findings on claims that it didn't take some forces into effect. Can't find it though but doesn't matter b/c yeah it might be able to make a hole that small but why are windows right next to the impact holes still intact?

5) He just merely refuted it. Seismic claims put an event at 10:06, not 10:03. Why would their be an event after the plane has crashed? A logical explanation would be the tape ended b/c of an explosion on-board and subsequent crash.

Alternet should allow a rebuttal like they did for the women vs men issue in paternity rights. Today in my logic class we discussed what makes an expert an expert. An expert is: someone who makes a claim based on outstanding logic and reasoning of what it takes to understand the claim being made. I think a lot of these "conspiracy theorists" do have legitimate claims.

I think so many people get caught up in credentials (why haven't any PhD engineers come foward? I don't credit them as being involved, but it was even stated in the article that most of them think it's bullshit so why would they care? As an engineering student, most I know are so caught up in their own studies that it would be imprudent to comment on something that would not only put their career in jeopardy, but be widely panned upon release. I mean not everyone's a Copernicous.) but if a reasoned and logical argument is being made, why comment on the fact that maybe they aren't the most qualified.

Also the author of this article said Steve Jones specialized in fusion as to disqualify his evidence. Wrong for two reasons. 1) He is using ad hominem attacks to disqualify solid reasoning. You can disqualify testimony with that logic but not an argument b/c you attack an argument with its fallacies not whether the person making them is right or not.

2) Just because you aren't a civil engineer doesn't mean you don't have the intelligence to make inferrences on events in civil engineering. Some of the best discoveries have come through multi-disciplinary actions because it can open your eyes to something you're not seeing. Also Dr. Jones is a scientist and an engineer which means he definitely has the capability and basic classes to come to the conclusions he has come up with. I mean the arguments being made aren't extraordinarily complicated.

Finally what is so funny about this article is it mostly manages to strengthen "conspiracy" arguments. We know the Bush & Co have no remorse for causing massive destruction and casualties on an enormous scale in the Middle East to get their way (ie "democracy, peace, freedom") why is it so hard to believe that a measily (to them) 3,000 people would stand in their way. I mean, they've already gotten that many innocent soldiers killed for no reason, it's not a huge step toward innocent civilians for no reason.

Isn't it possible?
Posted by: Rathan47 on Sep 18, 2006 11:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe I am just shooting in the dark here but...

Is it not possible that the certain high ranking members within the USA administration received credible warnings about these attacks early in the administrations days We have multiple sources stating that various intelligence agencies were warned in a variety of fashions. Is it not possible that this information came in even greater detail, in more classified formats? And if this information reached the right people early enough, people with the same ideology as some of the principles shared by the PNAC, is it not possible that a plan was put in place to use this information? A plan that would allow and perhaps distantly assist these attacks. A plan with multiple targets to ensure success. A plan to maximize the devastating effects of these attacks by ensuring that at least some of the targets are completely destroyed. A plan that allowed control, removal and destruction of all damaging evidence at the site of these attacks. A plan that gave a very definitive target, a new enemy, to the American public. A plan that would give the US its "New Pearl Harbor"?

And if done properly, would this plan propel the people of the US in the direction that certain figures in the administration wanted them to go? A plan that suppressed dissenting voices or discussion, because to do so would be unpatriotic, weaken the US and strengthen the enemy. A plan that would push the US Congress to agree to a military occupation of Afghanistan and to enact a set of laws that restricted personal freedoms, because to vote against them would be political suicide. A plan that allowed the completion of a major pipeline project that had been prevented due to instability in the region. A plan that allowed for tenuous ties to be insinuated between the terrorist group involved and Iraq to allow the administration to marshal for an invasion of that country to ensure control of it's major oil reserves for the future. A plan that would ensure that many of major movers and shakers that had backed the administrations rise to power would get very, very rich. A plan that would allow a foothold in the Middle East for future military endeavors. A plan that would position the US to have the means to attempt to ensure it economic survival in a looming energy crisis?

I doubt anyone could come up with a plan like that. And I highly doubt that there would ever be any evidence of such a plan, like:

-the two steel framed buildings collapsed from fire, an event which has never occurred before or since and that all three buildings collapse almost perfectly into their own footprint
-that the most heavily defended section of a military installation is struck with little sign of debris from the impact
-an airplane crash in the middle of nowhere with the debris so small that little evidence remains
-that a large insurance policy against terrorist attacks on the only three buildings that collapsed, all owned by the same entity
-that evidence was removed from a federal crime scene and destroyed before it could be examined
-the highly unlikely event that few of the black boxes from the four airplanes involved in the attacks are recovered, yet the paper passport of one of the attackers survives a fire and the collapse of a steel framed, concrete skyscraper
-the knowledge that most of the alleged attackers are of a nationality other than the country to be invaded
-that the Administration opposes and than inhibits the investigation of a “neutral” committee looking into the attacks

But of course, none of these things above happened…did they? I must have just imagined them all. Everything must be just fine, just like they say on the TV. If they say it’s ok, and that nice Mr. President says it’s ok, then gosh darn it, everything is just peachy keen.

Isn’t it?

Response to 9/11 debunkers
Posted by: devon on Sep 18, 2006 12:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read both of Griffin's books after hearing comments in a group I belonged to about the "conspiracy." I had some of the same reactions as everyone else. I did not believe that many people could be involved in a conspiracy and remain silent either. However, that's exactly what the terrorists did. Look how many people were involved in supporting and training them! Not one leak. No one questions their ability to maintain secrecy in their conspiracies to destroy this country with events such as 9/11. The only way we had advanced warning at all was through humint and sigint. No terrorist truly committed to his ideology let even one thing leak! We have extremists in our own country and probably in this government with equal committment to their ideology and determination to destroy and/or enslave the American people. So I really have no problem with believing that inside people who may have been involved in either perpetrating the event or in just allowing it to happen could have done so with no leaks. This is a new kind of enemy for us.
I have also seen two demolitions of old buildings in my city and the photos eerily resemble the WTC photos. Smoke patterns and color the same in both. Same pancake collapse. Also, who has ever given a credible explanation of those "short" purchase of stocks before 9/11 in the airlines involved in the crashes - knowing it would go down and that they would make a fortune after 9/11? The coincidence of Marvin Bush being a shareholder in WTC security company? Come on! The world may be full of random coincidences but even considering that possibility - this one's too much to believe. I've read the web sites supporting the conspiracy and other articles such as Rothschild's debunking it. I like to get both sides. Rothschild's article is debunked itself by the articles on this site that I assume are written by engineers raising questions about NSIT's "study." The truth will come out eventually. Someone involved in it has to break sooner or later from a twinge of conscience, threats of exposure or something. I believe FDR and Marshall knew about Pearl Harbor before the attack, too. The evidence of that was just as strong. We need to continue investigating this major event in our history and cull out legitimate questions of fact on both sides along with the manipulations and evasions. But no one should just accept the official version since this administration has lost ALL CREDIBILITY by now! And the 9/11 commission itself was hardly bipartisan and objective. They had plenty of motivation to cover B's ass and that of the GOP itself. Bipartisan? Hah! Another good reason for a truly non-governmental, legitimate investigation by experts in all areas who have no agenda or ideology to protect.

» RE: esponse to 9/11 debunkers Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: moreover Posted by: cold2touch
to begin with
Posted by: petkov on Sep 18, 2006 12:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Osama can claim responsibility ALL he wants. Claming is NOT the same as offerign real proof. I can claim it too. Do you take me seriously? NO? WHY not? As of today 5 years AFTER 9-11 the US government has offered ZRO real prrof Osama was the mastermind or was really involved. NOT the FBI. I mean the Bush administration. BTW if you gp to the FBI most wated site and rwad Osama'spage you will see even the FBI doesnt mention him being responsible for 9-11. Enough said

Second you didnt mention the dancing jews who at that fine morning were filming themsleves inront of the burnting towers.

THird, to conicdently carry war games and testing games and for those games to happne to fall on EXACTLYthe same day as 9-11 is an astronimcial coincidence. You have bgger change of winning the lottery. COme on now.

Forth, the NORAD inactivity is what bothers me. WHy didnt NORAD follow prcedure and send planes to intercept? Again nobody has been able to explain that.

Fifth, for a bunch of bumbling Arabs taking a few fling courses they did a damn fine job to be able to fly 2 jumbo jets for FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIVES Aaand crash it into their targets. Nobody has been at explain that either.

I can go on but its clear the offica story is full of holes. Bush hasnt made it easier when he resuses to have a REAL investigation going on.
The conspiracy thweories are appearing ebcause the American people are feelign frustrated because they realise they are beign lied to. BIG LIES> Enormous lies. The smartest ones among us realise even the whole "war on terror" jive is nothing more thna a fiction story being fwed to us. Come on now. There is no war or terror. There is simple imperialistic grab and conquree thats been going on since the daewn of time. Alecxander the "great"" did it 5 thousand years ago.
War is proftable. Peace isnt. Easy as that. USA needs wars to survive. Look at the istory of the 20th centiry.THe USA has been waging 1.5 wars every decade since the 1940s. The so called "cold war" (another fiction created to push bisiness) was a war too.
Do the Americans feel lied to? You bet. Can they do anything about it? I doutb it. After all, to say you got "democracy" is not the same as really having it.

AlterNet Conspiracy?
Posted by: saywhat on Sep 18, 2006 12:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is AlterNet really another FOX news?
Has it been bought out by a billionaire corporation?
Is it giving the progressives propaganda - so they will think they are crazy/nuts?
Or is THIS just another conspiracy theory?

» RE: AlterNet Conspiracy? Posted by: jonestown kool-aid
THANK YOU ALTERNET
Posted by: WILDSTARCHILD on Sep 18, 2006 12:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I HOPE THIS ARTICLE HAS HELPED TO CONVINCE
MY FRIENDS HERE THAT THIS CONSPIRACY STUFF
IS A COMPLETE WASTE OF OUR TIME.
WE HAVE MANY MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO
WORRY ABOUT,LIKE GLOBAL WARMING AND
SPREADING ALT. ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES FOR
INSTANCE.
LIKE THE PIECE SAID,"GET OVER IT."

» ALTERNET spin cycle Posted by: Hal
a few additional question marks
Posted by: cold2touch on Sep 18, 2006 12:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First of all, not all conspiracy theories make sense. That, however, is no reason to disparage them all by way of conflation.
The point is that the Administration has worked night and day to hide all evidence from the public and has spun lies that make the craziest conspiracy sound as paragon of logic by comparison.

People here have raised all kinds of valid questions that have been poorly dealt with by government apologists like Rothschild.

Let me add a couple at this point:
Transportation Sec Norman Mineta testimony before the 9/11 commission that Cheney gave the "stand down" order to Air Force interceptors -- see my previous post for the link.
The "plane" that hit Pentagon not only left no sign of impact beyond its fuselage, but
1) there was no debris, including giant Rolls Royce titanium engines,
2) yet the plastic nose cone burrowed deep into Pentagon past the 1st ring and courtyard,
3) grass in front of impact was unsinged and a supposed piece of debris was picked up by a worker using bare hands (as seen on CNN footage), even though the official claim was that the heat cooked the entire aircraft so thoroughly that not even scraps were left.

No doubt that thousands of Rothschild's experts will obediently provide a perfectly natural explanation for all that.

As for the fall of WTC, I am not certain either way. I am not satisfied, however, that all 3 buildings collapsed so neatly like Slinkys whether or not they were struck by planes. Explanations of ground tremors ringing their bells to the exact resonance required to shatter them like glass sound like ... conspiracy.
And WTC #7 was surrounded by non-Silverstein buildings and somehow they survived just fine ...

WTF?
Posted by: wilburr on Sep 18, 2006 12:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What in the hell have you been watching? Besides that, you try to debunk a few of the many problems with the 9/11 commision report with a few little and not so compelling arguments.
-What about the fact that other demolitions experts said that the towers that fell were controlled demolitions.
-Silverstien (the man who collected $7 billion from being insured 3 months before the attack) said on public television that they "pulled the building" which was tower 7. He might have tried to pull back that statement but that is what he said. Tower 7 was made to handle fires!
-The towers fell at free fall speed. That is hard to do the way other "experts" claim - such as the pancake theory. It is accually impossible
-Physics experts have come out and said that ther are flaws with the commission report.
You call you self a progressive. Do you not believe there sould be people held accoutable for the actions or lack thereof in investigation.
At least, Mr. Rothschild, you have to admit that there are flaws in the investigation. Major investigative flaws require major attention and reinvestigation.
I am confident though. A mjority of the country does not accept the B.S. you and other "experts" are putting out there. It seems "expert" follows allong with what party you support. But, democrats will take offic, then Bush and Co. will be held accoutable!
Fight for openning the investigation of what really happened on 911.
Seth

What do you think of "Press for Truth"?
Posted by: mn911 on Sep 18, 2006 12:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder what he thinks of "Press for Truth". That film is about the money trail & how the Bush administration pushed so hard for no investigation. Plus when one looks @ how building 7 fell, wow it fell so perfectly. I'll never talk about any of this again after the Pentagon allows us to view any of those 23 videos of the plane going into the Pentagon (not just hand picked frames). My goodness, that pilot of that plane was an amazingly talented pilot............

Note to Mr. Rothschild
Posted by: Rhondamarie on Sep 18, 2006 1:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems fair to say that you can find "experts" to support your belief about something in much the same way that some religious zealots use blble verses to support their personal philosophies and lifestyle choices. Here's what I DON'T believe: A: Cheney just coincedentally had drills running with similar scenarios for months prior to 9/11, yet our government personnel and military were just too dum and/or confused to follow even routine protocol on 9/11. B: Daddy George was in bed with a Bin Ladin the day before it took place, but that's not important to think about. Neither is the fact that a Bin Ladin invested in baby George's failed oil company. Or that our government has done business before with Bin Ladin. C: Members of Saudi royal family were picked up while planes were grounded and swooped out of the country, not because the government was trying to suppress anything, but just cause all us Americans love people and want them to have preferential treatment. D. There was a frantic moving of the evidence (steel) to CHINA, not because they were trying to hide anything, but because we were in a hurry to put something else on that piece of property. Woops? E. The fact that those buildings were going to have to be torn down in a few more years and were too costly for the owners to ever recoup their investments certainly shouldn't make one think twice about anything, like, say, insurance fraud and payoffs on a mass scale. F. The most wealthy and powerful individuals in this nation are God-fearing, good-hearted, kinda dum and bumbling, and don't think a bit about increasing their power and wealth just because they ARE IN POSITIONS TO DO SO. G. Some of the same crafters of New American Century's world plans are also believers in the Illuminati world plan, and participants in mock ritual sacrifices before a 40 ft stone owl representing the God Molech, all filmed at the Bohemian Grove, CA. But that shouldn't make us wonder about the true beliefs or intentions of our current whitehouse officials, or cause us to wonder: gosh, do ya think that if they really, really, tried REALLY hard to, they REALLY could pull off 9/11, by doing the same thing that Bin Ladin did: rounding up a crew of unwealthy, unarmed, poorly trained guys who think that suicide bombing the U.S. is their ultimate spiritual sacrifice. H. Economic benefits are not important to examine when considering who may be guilty for a crime. I. What a great article you wrote.

"Conspiracy" or "Theory"
Posted by: HaKeeton on Sep 18, 2006 1:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In science.....EVERY theory is conspiratory: we are trying to make previous theories more adequate, more applicable, more vaid to observation.

In social or political life, when someone wants to discredit a "theory" about anythying...they simply call it a "conspiracy." That serves their empty-headed purposes just fine.

The "official" 9/11 theory is logically a "conspiracy" theory, along with all the rest of the current theories. That is, "someone" conspired to harm or insult or attack or invade or some other imagined offence directed at us. The "someone" is not limited to single indivduals or graoups who know each other and "plan" all the eventes, but can be an aggregation of influences that are quire complex. Theories in physics are not limited to single players, and often include opposing views in order to progress.

Anyone with experience building even "low-rise" structural steel buildings knows something crucial: buildings may fail...but not totally. In other words, steel as a building material does NOT cut itself up into uniform managable pieces catastrophically. Just doesn't happen. Not to this point in building history, and not since these three almost simultaneous (within hours) total catastrophic collapses of the Towers and WTC-7 has a "high-rise," or "low-rise," structural steel building failed in this manner. Even when you add planes (physical damage....like the Oklahoma City bombing) and fire. Offer any example, please.

So, like any good scientist, find a "theory" to fit the facts. Can't find one? Keep looking. Don't be afraid of finding something scary. Just keep looking. Sooner or later you'll find a "theory" that fits ALL the facts. Then you can feel comfortable. Then you can say, "Get over it," and mean it.

Then ALL the insurance companies insuring every commercial steel building in the world will revise their actuarial tables accordingly, and developers will never again be able to afford erecting them. Anyone have a "theory" about why the insurance industry has NOT radically revised its policy toward structural steel buildings yet? Simple: we don't have an adequate and applicable "theory" about how and why the towers and WTC-7 failed catastrophically, totally, and almost simultaneously....based on damage and fire alone.

» Real Fallen Highrises Posted by: rwa
Time To Get Serious!!!
Posted by: starvinmarvy on Sep 18, 2006 1:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ok people....most of us are in agreement that we as a country were basically USED! Now what??????
As of 4:40EST there were 200 coments to this story ....that I`m sure Alternet ran ...if for no other reason than to get people stired.Half the shit they post ain`t worth responding to!
Now that most here agree we`ve been duped ....whats the best thing we can do at this moment?
Personally I`ve found the movement http://www.911truth.org/ a worthy site and cause!
Give them a few dollars to pursue what we all know to be the truth!

Not Likley
Posted by: braxxian on Sep 18, 2006 1:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having studied the facts for the last 3 years the conclusion I have come to is this. Bush and co had no hand whatsoever in the execution of 9/11. The sheer logistical amount of work and secrecy needed to pull off a caper like this seems to be well beyond the bumbling administration that brought us Katrina and Iraq.

However I also feel that Bush and co may well have been aware of the plot to some extent and did very little to stop it. This would allow them their new Pearl Harbor that they have long envisaged. So to sum up, did Bush and co have a hand in 9/11? certainly not. Did they do everything in their power to stop it?, certainly not.

» Not Relevant Posted by: Hal
» Very Relevant, actually! Posted by: thoughtcriminal
I'll just go ahead and throw the gauntlet
Posted by: owleyes on Sep 18, 2006 2:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Few of today's outraged Alternet readers appear to have read Rothschild's article very carefully, if at all. Instead of all this senseless wailing and gnashing of teeth, why not go back and figure out what the man is actually saying? It will do your cause much credit if you can prove yourselves capable of constructing a plausible scenario in which 9/11 is an inside job, *and* all of Rothschild's rebuttals are accounted for.

» What Gauntlet? Posted by: Hal
» RE: What Gauntlet? Posted by: owleyes
» RE: What Gauntlet? Posted by: Hal
» RE: What Gauntlet? Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Take Care Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Take Care Posted by: ignition
» RE: physicist Posted by: owleyes
» it doesn't negate Posted by: sln70
KLEPTOCRACY @ 911
Posted by: Hal on Sep 18, 2006 2:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“I made a few calls myself…Get over it.”

Hu-huh. A Rothschild as MSM “journalist” says there’s nothing to see at 911. So we should just all move along…

One of the most charitable things I could say about M. Rothschild is he is a transparent disinformation hack. But that would be giving him and his clients the benefit of the doubt.

I don’t know if Mr. Matt Rothschild is of the same Rothschild clan of the robber baron Rockefeller-Rothschild bloc of old (current chapter Jacob and Edmond Rothschild) but if not, he displays the same contempt for human life and its dignity as his namesakes.

911 cover-up is no more “theory” than its Orwellian “war on terror” used to foist puppet garrison states from the Mid East to Eurasia at public cost for private greed.

Anyone that doesn’t believe trillions in Big Oil could produce means, motive and opportunity for a 911 event knows nothing of geo-strategic history or human nature. Virtually every major war involving the U.S. in the previous century was kicked off by a false-flag incident including Viet Nam at Tonkin Gulf.

Rothschild puts up limited hangout artists like Richard Clarke as “evidence” that 911 was not a false-flag op because Clarke supported John Kerry. And because “who was in a better position than he to know…”

Gee, 2 co-opted DC-MSM insiders say 911 was pulled off by hung over cave boys with plastic tools. Amateurs that defeated a $20 billion a year Intel establishment and $450 billion a year military industrial complex. Really?

According to Bill Manning of Fire Engineering “The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers”.

Ah, but there are a few science and engineering trade groups (National Institute of Standards & Technology, American Society of Civil Engineers) including Pop Mechanics that say Arab evildoer DNA was scooped up after the crash along with the infamous unscathed hijacker wallet (as wacky as JFK’s magic bullet ride). Talk about loony tunes.

Then there’s the fact al-Qaeda was virtually created by the CIA. And that Osama Bin (Forgotten) Laden was a visibly supported CIA asset – codename Tim Osman – as late as the summer of 2000 in Dubai. Rothschild also fails to mention that the House of Saud (and its Bin Laden BushCo allies) are in bed with every political snake from Washington to 10 Downing. The House of Saud financed al-Qaeda with over half a billion dollars and counting. Ditto for the Muslim Brotherhood. Gee, isn’t forgotten Bin Laden supposed to be the big bad “enemy”.

But the biggest, bloodiest myth of all is the fantasy of a 911 “Commission Report”. What President Richard Nixon said of the last official government “Warren Commission” on JFK’s slaying is even more relevant to a 911 cover-up:

“IT (THE WARREN COMMISSION) WAS THE GREATEST HOAX THAT HAS EVER BEEN PERPETRATED.”
PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON (recorded on tape re: the Warren Commission “investigation” to his chief of staff and special counsel in the oval office. May 15. 1972)


In case there’s any doubt? No, we’re not going to “get over it” as M. Rothschild urges. We’ll leave that to sellouts and the good little sheep willing to give a pass to corporate cartel criminals who run a DC-MSM complex like the whorehouse it is. Rothschild and his cozy MSM crowd should “get over” that.

The final lynchpin Rothschild, BushCo, Kerry and a DC-MSM poodle machine protect is that for 911 cover-up to be real, American democracy has to be a farce. A fascist cartel crime state masked as a “democracy”. A kleptocracy. Go figure…

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0905-25.htm

» KUDOS!!! Hal Posted by: WhatNow?
» RE: KUDOS!!! Hal Posted by: Hal
Demolition?
Posted by: Vic on Sep 18, 2006 2:42 PM   
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A big part of the supposed conspiracy is that the two main towers were brought down by controlled demolition. I have seen suggestions that these explosives were in the basement and/or at the level where the planes hit.

As for basement demolition, all of us have seen the towers collapsing from the point of impact. The towers certainly did not collapse from the bottom and, had they done so, the demolition conspiracy would be obvious to all. What were these supposed basement explosions meant to accomplish then?

Let's suppose the conspiracy planted explosives at different levels in the two towers. The plotters of this conspiracy then must have instructed the hijackers to be very careful to crash their planes into those very levels on the respective towers. It would be very inconvenient if they missed and the eventual controlled explosions happened five floors too low, particularly since the conspirators could be certain that cameras would be focused on the event from every angle. Did these ultra-competent conspirators have such faith in their pilots?

But let's give them the benefit of the doubt - they hit the two targets where the explosives were set - think about that. Isn't it probable that some of those explosives would be destroyed, or set off, or disconnected from whoever was planning to detonate them, or knocked out of the building to be inconveniently found? Does taking chances on any of that suggest a likely conspiracy?

What's the point of explosives anyhow? Did the buildings HAVE to be brought down so explosives were planted to make sure? Surely the fact of two hijacked passenger planes ramming the towers, even without collapse, would have created the same public and government reaction.

While there are plenty of legitimate questions surrounding 911, this whole notion of explosives pushes the conspiracy notion way too far for me.

» you're wrong Posted by: harpy
» RE: you're wrong Posted by: Vic
Some real questions that could be asked:
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Sep 18, 2006 2:57 PM   
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There are better questions to be asked than these straw-man arguments put forth by the public relations crowd in their effort to frame the 9/11 debate as one between "the official story' and "the kooky conspiracy". For example:

(1) Did the Bush Administration take action to warn airport and airline security after recieving the August 6th PDB?

The briefing stated (excerpt)
"Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York."

You get a memo like that, you might thinking of asking the FBI and Justice if they've heard anything at all about Islamic radicals in the US, particularly having to do with flight schools. Funny, two separate field agents had sent memos to David Frasca at the New York 'flagship office' and were ignored. No action was taken by the President - the attacks were allowed to move forward without interference.

Maybe the FBI was too busy spying on environmental activists and WTO protestors to pay attention to the politically touchy topic of bin Laden and the Saudis?

(2) Did the Bush and Cheney financial ties with the House of Saud lead them to ignore the financial role that the Saudis played in funding Osama Bin Laden's terrorist network? Was the financial trail of 9/11 largely ignored because they didn't want invesitigations of the corrupt financial networks that they and their families had been involved in?

Who paid for what? Assuming that the hijackers didn't come into the country with hundred dollar bills taped to their bodies, someone had to pay for their housing, food, transport and cover stories. Where's Geraldo - why isn't he out there inteviewing people: "What was it like to live next to a terrorist?"

Tracing all the financial links back is 'problematic' as it would involve revealing the modern version of BCCI, the 'biggest financial scandal before Enron", i.e. the messy details of Saudi-American petrodollar recycling schemes.

See Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie (http://www.forbiddentruth.net/ ), Kevin Phillips (http://www.americantheocracy.net/) and Craig Unger (http://www.houseofbush.com/)

(3) Did Bush deliberately allow hijackings to occur in the mistaken assumption that only hijackings (not suicide bombings) were being planned? Did this assumption cripple the military response on 9/11? Would the US military really shoot down a jetliner full of citizens if they thought the plane was returning to the airport?

That's pretty easy to understand - just do nothing, and react afterwards. When Bush says, "If I had known they were going to use those airplanes to kill, I would have tried to stop it" - doesn't he sound believable? Would Bush and Cheney really want to be responsible for shooting down US airliners full of US citizens?

If airliners are the targets, than the US Air Force was supposed to shoot down all four - and if they did shoot down Flight 93 (as is quite likely), than isn't that what they were supposed to do?

(4) Was his motivation the desire for a distraction from the looming Enron scandal, the desire for a reason to start Mideast wars for oil control, the upcoming WTO protests, and the media-sponsored recount of the 2000 election?

Would Bush deliberately put American citizens at risk for the benefit of his friends and family? Look at US soldiers in Iraq - Bush knew there were no WMD's there, but there is a large of amout of sweet, light crude.

lets cherry pick the facts and studies.
Posted by: ShoShenQ on Sep 18, 2006 3:59 PM   
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I bet the author believes in the magic bullet theory as well ? What about BBC reporting that more than a couple supposed suicide terrorists are still alive ? What about the FACTS ?

At least he took the time to consult the references such as http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/

Please do so and see for yourself.

Bin-Laden is innocent!
Posted by: folkdude01 on Sep 18, 2006 4:02 PM   
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Don't you all believe that? If all the conspiracies are "true", then we shouldn't have attacked Afghanistan because the Taliban and Al Queda were innocent on 9/11.

I've always wondered what goes on with some people and their feels on George Bush. Some people believe he's stupid, other people believe he is the mastermind behind 9/11.

I'm not saying the government wasn't involved on 9/11, I don't know whether they were involved (or weren't involved)....and neither do many of you. Personally, I believe what happened on 9/11 seems to be a monumental failure by the government. But I do believe Bin-Laden is guilty, United 93 was brought down by the passengers, and ecetra.

People need to think rationally, that's all I'm saying.

Poorly written, ill-researched article by Zionist/capitalist stooge
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Sep 18, 2006 4:17 PM   
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"Rothschild" -- does the author have some connection to that creepy Zionist banking family?

Anyone with eyes in their head can see that the fall of the twin towers, not to mention WTC 7 which was not even hit by a plane, was due to demolition charges. You don't even need to read anything about 9/11, just watching video will tell you what happened.

So why do so many people put their hands over their ears and go "la la la la la" when someone mentions the blatantly obvious? Probably because of where the truth would lead them.

9/11 was engineered by a cabal of Zionist conspirators and Mossad agents who want to start a war against the Arabs, all for the benefit of Israel and Big Oil. If they could loot a few billion dollars in insurance settlements and steal the gold stored at the WTC site while they were at it, so much the better.

To take on this crew would involve dismantling America's entire domestic policy, which functions through crony capitalism and gross social inequality, and its imperialistic foreign policy along with its support for Israel. In other words, the collapse of society as we know it. A lot of people don't want to deal with the level of disruption to their lives that would occur in the immediate aftermath.

YES 9/11 IS REALLY THAT BIG!

Unfortunately for those who prefer to maintain the status quo, the eventual result of allowing the perpetrators to go free with their agenda unchallenged will be even worse : World War Three, and the metamorphosis of America into a fascist state with third-world levels of social inequality. Better to bite the bullet and go after the truth NOW, before the criminals behind 9/11 create a worldwide disaster.

Mathew, You are a luny!
Posted by: han on Sep 18, 2006 4:23 PM   
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Since you are more scared of being called a luny than to seriously look at the facts:

Mathew, you are a luny!

I hope you now decide to make up your own mind rather than to swallow what the luny-callers spoonfed you.

A big fallacy in motivations, and a story
Posted by: just john on Sep 18, 2006 4:54 PM   
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The Griffin theories and related tales ignore one huge thing about motivations: Anybody powerful enough to have pulled off a simulation of this sort wouldn't have needed to or wanted to.

For any conjurer's trick, a ton of practice is needed ahead of time. Same goes for larger projects. Remember, the plot, as described, was a huge sleight-of-hand. When does that ever go right, the first time you try it?

So there would have to have been practice runs of every part of this. Where did they happen?

Who would hide such a space program-sized project, so well? And if anybody were powerful enough and competent enough to do so and have the public debut of the plan go so according to plan, what would they have LEFT to achieve that such a plan would accomplish? We're talking evil masterminds here, right?

The WTC as actual target for what it contained? Such evil overlords could have prevented it from getting there in the first place.

The attacks as means of motivating public opinion in some direction? They already control the horizontal and the vertical and are running mind control operations as an ongoing project and don't need tacky stunts like this.

To change stream abruptly, allow me to confess that that non-mainstream conspiracy theories attract interest because they're a form of "alternate history" fiction, which actually can be fun and worthwhile. I think posing questions such as, "What if the weather hadn't gone against the Spanish Armada?" is a perfectly legit thing to do. However, Griffin and co.'s story is even clunky as art.

Here's a far more elegant conspiracy. I posit that although to the best of my knowledge this is false and merely contrived to make a point, it is a theory that is far more difficult to disprove and is far more unsettling than the ones we've been reading, and therefore a BETTER conspiracy theory: At least three of the planes weren't hijacked, they were under control of mutineers. All the physical facts are pretty much as stated in the mainstream press accounts, EXCEPT that rather than directly threatening the crew, the conspirators politely argued their point with the other passengers and crew, and the strength of their arguments was so overwhelming that the crew volunteered to hit the targets the conspirators suggested, with most of the rest of the passengers' enthusiastic consent.

Now, to this day, nobody knows what the conspirators said. Did they have a religious message? Did they appeal to despair? Did they bring out their fellows' most nihilistic natures in those few short hours? Who else knows these words? When and where will they be spoken again? Will you be the target? Will you be the tool?

?..

Now THAT's a conspiracy theory! It'll have the kids hiding under the beds in no time, and just in time for Halloween!

The personnel requirements for a vast conspiracy
Posted by: meetmeineleusis on Sep 18, 2006 5:24 PM   
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And how do we know that those potentially involved in a vast government conspiracy to commit 9/11 haven't tried to speak out? Seems like if some whistleblowers came out and admitted they were part of the conspiracy and knew about it, people like Mr. Rothschild would come out and write articles accusing them of being mentally ill, calling them anti-american nutjobs, defending the official government story, smearing them into obscurity and ruining their lives.

So the fact that no one has came out and admitted anything isn't surprising. Then of course there's the promise of a 9mm slug to the back of the head or bribery (or both. Given the choice i'd take the money and keep my mouth shut)


There are a lot of whacky, stupid ideas in the 9/11 conspiracy movement. Holographic airplanes come to mind. But the dumbest idea regarding a 9/11 conspiracy is the one that we the citizens should not ask questions. Just keep paying our taxes and shut the fuck up.

FOXNEWS????
Posted by: damon466 on Sep 18, 2006 5:28 PM   
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If i didn't know any better i would have thought i was reading an Article from Fox News!!! How Ironic is it that A Rothschild wrote this Article too!! A Name Synonymous with the Crooked World banking System, the Federal Reserve System and with funding the Military Industrial Complex! lol
For every bit of information from the So-called experts who Claim the Buildings came down as a result of high intensity fires, i can come up with at least 1 expert who says they could not have! This Article could have been written exactly in the Opposite viewpoint very easy...
Think for yourself! Question Authority!
Otherwise you might just find yourself sitting in a secret detention center somewhere wishing you would have stood up for your rights and beliefs..!

Unanswered questions remain
Posted by: davesilvan on Sep 18, 2006 5:44 PM   
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1a. What about the increased-frequency fire drills reported in the weeks leading up to 9/11?
1b. Were the fire exits locked so after people flooded into the fire escapes, they couldn't get out?

2. Granted it may not have been Bush & Co. planting explosives in the building, but from various camera angles, explosions can be seen well after the planes hit, with fireballs blowing out windows directly beneath the cascading collapse of floors as the collapse starts; after it starts falling, I think you can count on the momentum of millions of tons of concrete and steel to finish the job. Anyone have any hypotheses for these? Is it possible that 'terrorists' previously infiltrated and visited those buildings numourous times to plant explosives? Is it possible that 'terrorists' could have had relationships with businesses inside the U.S. who could have gotten them the proper access as well as explosives to plant in those buildings? Wouldn't someone, especially WTC security, have noticed them and questioned them? What about all the suspicious 'men in over-alls' 're-cabling' in the upper floors? People like that need the proper paperwork to be shown before they're allowed to do work like that, that stuff has to be cleared by the people in charge.

3. Why did Bush sit on his ass in a grade school for 20 minutes after being told about the WTC attacks before getting up and doing anything? (Why didn't he excuse himself immediately and say, 'I'm sorry, presidential duties require that I excuse myself, I've just been informed we have some pressing issues I need to take care of.)

4. Do we have any 1st person accounts/reports/interviews from any of the relatives/loved ones who on the phones with passengers of flight 93 that crashed (which left absolutely no evidence of a plane crash) in midwest PA? Or are we taking these recordings given to us by the government on their word that it was passengers of flight 93 talking to their loved ones? (It is entirely possible that these recordings were made after-the-fact and just released to quell public questioning.)

5. You trying to tell me that the only video footage released by the FBI on whatever it was that hit the Pentagon was from that one rinky-dink camera angle? Or is it possible that that single camera was part of a wider array of cameras, each of which take one pic per second but when combined together, produce a movie of 64 fps, a la 'Matrix' style? After immediately dispersing in the area to confiscate all video footage from the surrounding locations? This in itself suggests our own government was involved in a conspiracy. Had all those videos really shown from multiple angles what the government claims happened, why on earth would they confiscate them to never be seen by public eyes again? Don't you think those FBI agents would have had something more important to do right after our country 'is attacked by terrorists'? Yet somehow they found the time to sweep out and confiscate every video of the pentagon attack.

6. Why did building 7 collapse when very clearly if you look at a map of the area there were plenty of buildings much closer to WTC 1 & 2 that took no damage?

I'm not trying to cast doubt on anyone's theories, I'm merely looking for the truth on the matter. I think it's plenty possible that a few higher-ups knew about our outdated norad defense system and exploited it. And I think it was pretty convenient that GWB happened to be nowhere in the area at the time of the attacks. How often does/did he go on these little escapades to listen to school children read?

Any evidence that the government hands the public and says 'here, 3, 4 years after the attack, this is what happened' should not be trusted, including that NORAD report sent to that mag. Any of that could have been cooked up to support their claims.

Alternet is not what is used to be...
Posted by: ShoShenQ on Sep 18, 2006 6:04 PM   
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By the way the video tapes of the gas station that borders the pentagon were seized within minutes , think about it.

That said, I find it mind boggling that a Rotschild comes lecturing us, and basically telling us to stfu and move on.

Now you cry us a river and then build a bridge and get over it, we will continue hammering this issue until the Light of Truth be shed and the culprits pay tenfold for their crimes.

These sites expose the real truth about the truth movement.
Posted by: debunking911.com on Sep 18, 2006 6:10 PM   
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http://www.debunking911.com - not - debunking911myths.com

http://www.jod911.com - Jounal of Debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories.

On Jones' - http://www.debunking911.com/jones.htm

Frequency analysis and 9/11 conspiracy theories
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Sep 18, 2006 6:46 PM   
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Consider the fact that every time Alternet posts an article on 9/11, the number of comments goes through the roof.

Interesting. Either people really care about 9/11, or this is a topic that draws a lot of public relations traffic aimed at promoting the 'bombs in the WTC story" and the "missle hit the Pentagon" story.

Is the Internet subject to public relations manipulation? Of course it is! Just like the newspapers and television are! Jeez, I could be a covert agent (I try and use factual information as the basis of all of my posts, which is a signal that I'm not playing that game - but still, caveat emptor).

In general, when you see a sudden increase in traffic, much of it harping on the same topic (bombs in the WTC, anyone who disagrees with bombs in the WTC is a government disinformation agent and a liar, along with no discussion of Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld, or (Lord forbid) the Saudi and bin Laden families) - well , then there are two possibilities - (a) people care far more about 9/11 than about any other topic on alternet, or (b) you are looking at the work of the Pentagon public relations group, or of one of their subcontractors.

So how about all those dead people in Iraq? Isn't it time to bring the military home and give up the oil leases to the locals?

» Deja Vu? Posted by: YogiBear
What about the day before
Posted by: armed on Sep 18, 2006 7:01 PM   
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(CBS) On Sept. 10, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld declared war. Not on foreign terrorists, "the adversary's closer to home. It's the Pentagon bureaucracy," he said.

He said money wasted by the military poses a serious threat.

"In fact, it could be said it's a matter of life and death," he said.

Rumsfeld promised change but the next day – Sept. 11-- the world changed and in the rush to fund the war on terrorism, the war on waste seems to have been forgotten.
Just last week President Bush announced, "my 2003 budget calls for more than $48 billion in new defense spending."

More money for the Pentagon, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports, while its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends.

"According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted.

$2.3 trillion — that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America. To understand how the Pentagon can lose track of trillions, consider the case of one military accountant who tried to find out what happened to a mere $300 million.

"We know it's gone. But we don't know what they spent it on," said Jim Minnery, Defense Finance and Accounting Service.

The Role of Pakistan's Military Intelligence (ISI) in the September 11 Attacks from the Centre for Research on Globalisation.
In a nutshell Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad of Pakistans ISI (like our CIA)
wired Mohamed Atta 100,000. The presumed "ring leader" of the WTC attacks Mohamed Atta. Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad was in Wasington meeting with the head of CIA and others in the Bush camp in September of 2001. He was in Washington for high level talks at the State Department. He was in the US when the attacks occurred According to the New York Times.

The links between the ISI and agencies of the US government including the CIA are also a matter of public record.
Look it up and then make sure History is not rewritten.
Bill Manning, Fire Engineering's editor in chief, is summoning members of the fire service to "A Call to Action." In his January 2002 Editor's Opinion, "$elling Out the Investigation", he warns that unless there is a full-blown investigation by an independent panel established solely for that purpose, "the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals." Manning explained: "Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers .... The lessons about the buildings' design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world." Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the "official investigation" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure.
Prof. Jones, who conducted his PhD research at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center and post-doctoral research at Cornell University and the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility, has analyised materials from WTC and has detected the existence of thermite, used for “cutting” the steel support columns.

» So what are you saying? Posted by: famouspipeliner
How can you be so easily conditioned to respond this way
Posted by: GrizzleBee's on Sep 18, 2006 7:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As soon as those with differing perspectives voice said perspective
your only concern is the discrediting of the opposing view not why it has surfaced in the first place if it had no legitimacy it would have no room to exist period
sure you can buy into the disinformation under the guise of logic but at the end of the day were still no better off for it when you can give validity to both sides yours becomes truly valid

» It's a true/false statement Posted by: owleyes
Why there are conspiracy theories
Posted by: eridani on Sep 18, 2006 8:24 PM   
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To criticize "conspiracy theorists" is to blame the victim instead of taking on the perpetrators. There is a reason why people come up with conspiracy theories--they happen to be a normal and healthy response to the experience of being forbidden access to relevant information and being constantly lied to by people who do.

The radical therapist Claude Steiner once said that paranoia is actually a heightened state of awareness, in which the paranoid put together narratives that make sense of the only information they have available. He gave an example of a woman he treated who believed that her husband was engaged in several elaborate plots on her life. What Steiner did was to interview the husband, who was disturbed by his wife's narrative. The husband was in fact thinking of having her permanently committed to the funny farm, but he always responded to his wife's questions about what was wrong between them by saying "Nothing, honey."

That was the crux of the problem. The wife was in a heightened state of awareness and knew only that "Nothing, honey" was a pile of steaming bullshit. Not having access to real information about what was going on in her husband's head, she invented it. Steiner's ultimately successful therapy was simply to convince the husband to stop lying and withholding information. In this case, the husband did not exactly lead the examined life, and was unaware of the harm that social "white lies" can sometimes cause. Being genuinely concerned about his wife, he agreed to try to be more introspective and commit to being honest about his feelings. The wife agreed to acknowledge this effort, and to be more persistent about asking for information instead of automatically assuming the worst. Of course members of the current administration have no such commitment to making it all better for the rest of us--see the classic Ingrid Berman/Charles Boyer movie Gaslight for a psychological take on their game.

The bottom line here is that it is a basic requirement of sanity to be able to make sense of one's information environment, and if those people who know what is going on behind closed doors constantly lie to the public and withhold information, the inevitable result is that people will naturally want to fill in the blanks. This process is analogous to the effects of sensory deprivation---float in one of those tanks long enough to deprive your brain of sensory input, and it will quickly start inventing some.

Talk About Complete Falacies!
Posted by: kenadrian on Sep 18, 2006 9:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can't start an article off with "Here's What Conspiracy Theorists Believe". First of all, you do two things:

a) Reduce any and all persons who don't completely buy the official story and want more answers to the Ad Hominem category of "conspiracy theorists" (Those "crazy people".); and,

b) You have NO WAY OF KNOWING what the varying spectrum of people actually believe, argue, etc., in the face of the offical story.

This kind of article is not journalism. It's rhetoric (at best).

I, for one, do NOT completely accept and/or believe the official story as it has been documented in the 9/11 Commission Report and as it has been promulgated by the existing American gov't. That does NOT make me a "conspiracy theorist" and I certainly don't believe many of the things on your exhaustive list of things "conspiracy theorists" believe.

Who appointed your the official voice of the conspiracy theorists anyway? That's pretty arrogant and indefensible a position you are taking. It would be like me saying "Here's what Alernet Media Personal believe about 9/11".

Your article is complete cr*p. Go back to school and learn how to write journalism or get out of the business.

whatever
Posted by: autocraticforcefeed on Sep 18, 2006 9:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
anytime a government shows its contempt for open government, these conspiracy theories are going to pop up. bush ordered 911. bush blew up the levees. i've been fairly open minded to the possibility that 911 was an inside job, and while the arguments have been somewhat compelling at times, the evidence just doesn't hold up for me. i certainly think it's possible. but that isn't the same as it being the definitive truth. i guess that's the biggest problem with the conspiracy theorists. they think every refutation is another piece of the puzzle, more propoganda from the corporate lobby.

the sad part is that, if i were to hypothesize, i would guess the tipping point between disbelief to utter devotion to the cause of conspiracy for each individual theorist would be the discovery that osama bin laden was once a CIA agent (and as the saying goes, once a CIA agent, always a CIA agent). interpreting this information as a means to cooperation is dangerous, because it overlooks the realities of the relationships.

Bin Laden and Bush and the Saudis and every other tyrannical ruler in the round world are not in cohoots to enact mass murder upon us all. the imperial grasp of the united states was just as vast (if not far more) before Bush stole his first election.

rather than cooperation via coersion, eternal warfare and alienation are the goals of all power-mad juggernauts and the monied interests that work day in and day out to keep them in power. the only cooperation is a voluntary servitude to the systematic forces that lead us to destroy each other.

Bin Laden and Bush being linked closer than Kevin Bacon (via their oil money connections, Bush's dad's CIA connections) only proves how tightly knit a circle these people run in and how fragile the ties that bind (or seperate) them are. it's a permanent worldwide oligarchy where some players rotate, some players lose their turn, and some stay there forever. and the victims are always the civilians in the middle who are dumb enough to fight their wars for them.

Bin Laden (who is really just a financier and not as much of a mastermind of the 911 attacks as the current guantenamo captive khalid shaik mohammed. Bin Laden is just a convenient diversion for the Democrats to ensure that the war on terror will continue when they assume power as long as he's kept at large. the ken lay to shaik mohammed's dick cheney, if you will) and Bush share the same goals, the goals of all self-annointed god-kings; to reign supreme over the endless variety and strength to grow and evolve as a species. capitalism is a fork in the road to evolution. it thrives on stasis, not real progress. new things, but not new ideas. ditto religion and other cultural hegemonies.

alienation is the key to this bullshit. how else will we buy such a big lie unless we have a faceless enemy, or better still, a single face that we can ascribe to an entire group of innocent people. which brings me to the next, and probably even more controversial point ;

who fucking cares about september 11th? if you truly believe the conspiracy theory and can come away thinking this is the most terrible atrocity carried out by our government, you've missed the point entirely. when we're actively engaged in a war that has killed at least 20 times more innocent civilians, why are the 2,000 Americans more important? isn't the capacity to do such damage the ultimate grievance and shouldn't we be focusing all our efforts on stopping the killings that are still happening rather than moping over the 3,000 that died 5 years ago. it has to stop now. for the sake of the species, it has to stop. an american life is worth no more than an iraqi or afghani or haitian or sudanese or congolese or canadian or any other nation-state-affiliated life.

and let me ask this: which is more tragic?
(cont'd)

» RE: whatever Posted by: autocraticforcefeed
Progressives should be unified behind calling for a reopening of a real 911 investigation
Posted by: davidslesinger on Sep 18, 2006 9:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Mr Rothschild,

I am a longtime progressive activist who admires your work and your publication. I am among the most sympathetic to progressive causes of 911truth activists. I was radicalized during the Vietnam war and am a nonviolence trainer. I did 4 months in jail for a 1982 civil disobedience on the nuclear power issue. You can review my efforts to introduce nonviolence to my fellow 911 skeptics at 911courage.org.

There are many respected leftists who hold a less hostile position on 911skepticism. Allow me to draw your attention to Howard Zinn's blurbs on D.R. Griffin's books. Also, before he passed on, William Sloane Coffin noted, ""Professor David Ray Griffin has a well-deserved reputation for the thoroughness of his research. All Americans who love their country enough to dig into the facts of these critical times will be well rewarded by examining his books. 9/11 truth is a very important issue---one with the power to bring lasting change to our country.”

I'm sure you are familiar with the work of Chip Berlet, who to my mind sets the gold standard for criticism of the 911truth movement. I obviously differ with Chip on many points, but even he agrees the Kean Commission Report was insufficient and a new investigation is needed. He also praises the work of James Ridgeway on the subject.

Because 911truthers are anti-imperialist, and because professional pollsters admit the movement has grown to significant numbers, I suggest you consider taking Berlet's position if you want to be a critic. While I don't consider that radicals like Chomsky (my professor at MIT) eschew the details of the 911 issue out of cowardice, I do feel powerful liberals are guilty of such cowardice. I do worry that as the 911 truth movement increases in stature, leftists like you and Noam will be accused of lacking integrity. Because there are so many other issues you and your publication address with integrity, please consider softening your resistance to asking the hard questions about 911. After all, I'm sure you are concerned about the attack on civil liberties that unquestioned acceptance of the "war on terror" fosters.

Everyday activists on all issues tend to have lower standards for what constitutes evidence that professional researchers. There is a role for people who want to hold our feet to the fire.

However, I suggest your acceptance of the defense of Silverstein's quote is below your standards. The full quote reads:
I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it." And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.

It doesn't seem there would have been time for the firefighters to leave the building.

In struggle,

David Slesinger

Maybe it wasn't Bush
Posted by: Repeater on Sep 18, 2006 9:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think one reason the conspiracy theory isn't taken seriously is the Bush administrations implication in the conspiracy. I don't believe for one moment government officials
could carry out such a conspiracy and keep it under wraps. Watergate, Iran contra, the Pentagon papers, Bay of Pigs, ect.. Government conspiracies have a way of finding their way into the light. One this large would surely be hard to keep under wraps, let alone carry out. I believe it's more likely that if this was a conspiracy it was carried out by people outside of government, but with lose ties to the neocon element inside the administration. This conspiracy would have been orchestrated without the knowledge or cooperation of any government official. I can imagine some officials, like Cheney, knowing from intelligence sources that something was blowing in the wind but never wanting anything more than a vague hint. If they had uncovered a plot as monstrous as this was I believe they never would have allowed it to happen. Not that they are decent, law abiding men of conscience, but the enormity of it, I believe, would have scared the hell out of them. An operation like this could only have been carried out by people far back in the shadows who answer to no one. Was this a conspiracy, and were Americans involved? It's not unreasonable to suspect such. As disgusting a thought as that is I realize global dominance is a very high stakes game. Of course this is all pure hypothesis based on speculation, which is meaningless to anyone other than myself. There's no harm in it. So please allow us to question, speculate, and theorize. A suspicious public is a necessary ingredient for democracy.

» RE: Maybe it wasn't Bush Posted by: ignition
Some Perspective
Posted by: pixiequix on Sep 18, 2006 10:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate."
-Noam Chomsky

» He's a genius! Posted by: Prophit
Pithy a rothschild acting as a left-wing gatekeeper
Posted by: OWN-the-NWO on Sep 18, 2006 10:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least he isn't as caustic as cockburn.

9/11 Only Seems LikeTHE Event Of The New Century
Posted by: rockpicker on Sep 18, 2006 10:39 PM   
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It is the harbinger of new times. In our hearts, all of us know who perpetrated the attacks on America. We can see clearly, with five years hindsight, who has benefitted from this minor investment of human capital.

The single most important event of all of our lives is yet to unfold. It will not streak silver out of focus on scratchy film some innocent blue morning, audios jammed with first responders ruining footage for the main stream press.

It will hang in the air like a flag at the end of summer.

It will turn your mouth black. Your loving hands will spring like harrows. Your gray hair will fall upon your plate.

Where will you go? What will you do, when the ones you've empowered train their armies on you?

Answer me that, you red, white and blue boys, who have nothing better to do but wade through all these inane retorts?

I have read all your reports and, frankly, they are wanting.

Can't we agree, our country is worth saving?

Even if we dispute our individual failing?

You lie in your burb and hear the near burbs sprawl.
It's the soft sound that soothes us all. All night, we hear the crawl of tracks and pneumatic hammers and cement mixers and delvery trucks backing into their next big deal, and we say, "cool. I love this wheel!"

"Spent ma life tryin' to make money, now th' money's no good."

"In the greatest country on earth, in the early hours of the twenty-first century, I cannot afford to educate my kids. Nor provide them with health care. Is this a legacy we want handed down? Permit my frown."

"In the room the women come and go
talking of Michaelangelo."

Why is 9/11 so important?
Posted by: WhatNow? on Sep 18, 2006 11:16 PM   
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It is the primary basis for the bush administrations policies. It has exacerbated so many social problems and started the killing of thousands in the middle east by the US military.

It has contributed to these types of things: US: Defense and oil company executives reap windfalls from Iraq war

It was the start of an escalation of misery that the bush administration is aiding or causing.

Bushboys did 9/11/01. And do it AGAIN 10/25/06
Posted by: Meremark on Sep 19, 2006 12:06 AM   
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-
Another voice (above) said my thoughts: Feeling sorry for Rothschild so public in his ignorance. He knows the Capitalized Group Name on the report covers, is all, and admits he can't read the contents.

Only a fiend of hope could waste one more word for science against the devoids, but here goes:

What is the evident total energy one tower could possibly exert, to release in ideal crush conditions?
111,000 kilowatt hours

What is the total energy one tower evidently did release, in powderized results?
135,000 kilowatt hours

911research.wtc7.net/papers/dustvolume/index.html

Sorry, no debunkable conspiracy theory in this. (Get your own.) Just the mass and gravity of facts. Cited source Jim Hoffman goes on as a matter of fact far above the range of 10,000,000 kwh evidently released, (read: necessary to obtain the consensus reality that did obtain), but who's counting. He features thermodynamics formulations, which is kind of an acquired taste, but hey, if you can't even figure the first two given Newton numbers, you can't count on yourself to start with, so ask your local physicists and accept their uniform answer. Recorded kinetic energy OUT exceeded given potential energy IN. Therefore, ergo, Q.E.D., an untold something was inside the job. Go figure or come unhinged.

Thermodynamics may be an esoteric scholarship, but it has the longstanding advantage of the immortality of reproducible results. Chime right in when you spot a formula in use that fails to reproduce the same answer for you it has for others. Not hearing any objection, Simon Science say Bushboys spiked the punch. Gee whiz, Mr. Science, how could they? Simon Science only calculates the energy in it, not the ignominy to the ninny degree.

Really, though, The Progressive, and Alternet: the decider of the unitered appeasers sucked life out of you as you are sucking unto others.

It is not now the matter anyway, as an earlier voice also said, and what is the matter is: What comes next? The myth moths tell their side's inflaming answer, and mass media swears it: Hijackers did it, hijackers do it again.

Truth sooths need to tell their side's defined answer, so whenever media has equal time, there's some material to go in the balance. That is, saying Bushboys did it, then predicts what?

We got yer theory, right here. Bushboys do it again. Wait for it ... wait for it ... October 25, 2006. Plus or minus a fudging day or two, (they have been wobbly-knee wild-aim before on target plans).

Oct. 25 appears in this old farmer's almanack of planet patterns, is only my word. Maybe sufficient for wiseguys, your results may vary. Planets tell me an unfolding plan to drape dubya in a full-blame scapegoat frame, then to sink him with his father's sins cemented on, (advance suggested now by a documentary movie before the fact), and to defoliate and depopulate a barrier to entry a couple hundred miles wide between here and the other Americas, and to false-finger Iran to invade there for, to postpone elections here until further cancelled, and, awfully much, to reich and roll. On. To the future ... and beyond.

Your first clue your appeaser life is toast is when mass hypnosis media says emergency aid is on its way to you, freeze, duct tape the plastic over your head, and stay indoors listening to broadcasts. Until summer comes. Simon Security says. From an undisclosed location.

Wow! Liar in Chief hard to believe.
Posted by: DataDoc on Sep 19, 2006 12:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow! When I saw PBS documentary on the fall of the towers, I believed it - no govt. conspiracy necessary. But so many people believe it was faked up somehow. Maybe there's a grain of truth to it.

My personal opinion is: Bush lied about Iraq's weapons, Bush lied about spying on Americans, Bush lied about CIA detention camps, so would it surprise anyone if he came out and admitted he had advance notice of 9-11? You can see how Bush became a leader - he can lie with a straight face, then admit he was lying a couple of months later with a big smile on his face - saying "it was for your own good"

9-11 damaged the psyche of this nation. Bush uses 9-11 in every big speech, and reinforces the psychic damage by using 9-11 to justify breaking the Geneva Convention, etc. Luckily, free Americans still ahve enough backbone to resist.

It's hard for me to believe any Amerian would back Cheney on killing thousands of other Americans, but where there's smoke, we might want to keep looking for the real fire.

» RE: Wow! Liar in Chief hard to believe. Posted by: Corps_8_my_baby
» Cheney Key Player Posted by: Corps_8_my_baby
Your Three Points vs. My Three, I win.
Posted by: Corps_8_my_baby on Sep 19, 2006 1:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your three basic points discredit you already Mr. Rothschild.

[First, Osama bin Laden has already claimed responsibility for the attack several times and boasted of the prowess of the suicide bombers who hijacked those planes. Why not take him at his word? ]

Mr. Rothschild is a real spin-meister here. In point of fact, Bin Laden's "claim" of responsibility was his third statement on the subject and the only one not in his own voice. This statement was conveniently released
to the public before The 04 Presidential Election. In the previous two statements in 2001, Bin Laden, in full video and audio claimed no responsibility in the attacks... twice. Why not take him at Those Words?

[Second, if the Bush Administration plotters carried out 9/11 to justify attacking Iraq, why didn't they have Iraqi hijackers do the deed? In actuality, there was not a single Iraqi hijacker, and Bush propagandists had to do all sorts of gymnastics to link Iraq to the actual attackers.]

Again, classic disinfo technique. This question is so convoluted it should be laughable, save for the grave subject matter. Let me untwist this pretzel of illogical query.
*The Bush Administration plotters carried out 9/11 attack to terrify the voting public. They succeeded. *They carried out the attack to divert public money into an adventure of epic proportions in remaking the middle east as a far more lucrative set of client states, the most important
aspect of which was getting Halliburton into multiple countries to construct and rebuild pipelines. They succeeded. *The fact that the patsies blamed for the hijacking were Saudis and Egyptions was of little consequence to Karl Rove who understood that most Americans "don't know the difference"
He was right. *The record of wanting to cause chaos in the United States and the organizational substance for a "bad guy" was ready made with Bin Laden. Moderates and Corporatists alike would believe it. Plus, the only convenient patsies to blame were those already in the employ of the CIA
who were training under the direct knowledge of our government in Florida and Arizona flight schools... (one of which was found to have a significant stash of Afghani Heroin... but that's for another article). * Bush propagandists had "gymnastics" to do no matter what form the enemy took. They had to get the American people to roll over and condone FIRST STRIKES on unarmed or underarmed nations. We would never have allowed this before 9/11. As I post this, the US is seen world wide as a rogue nation. The patsies were brown and muslim in appearance, and shamefully, that was enough.

[Third, for this conspiracy to have succeeded, it would have had to have been amazingly vast: not only the high level members of the Bush Administration (including the head of the Secret Service, Griffin says in Christian Faith) and the explosives teams, but also many others.]
That is a too often repeated claim that does not hold water. One could rightfully say the same thing about the OFFICIAL STORY! How big was the subgroup who engineered and ran the IRAN CONTRA? Not very big, and they almost got away with it. It's all about a nod and a wink.
It's all about don't ask and don't tell. Today, the 9/11 families are asking all kinds of basic questions and no one is answering them. Does that mean the entire congress and all govt officials are part of the conspiracy? Not at all. It means they fear the powerful few who are, and prefer not to rock the boat. History is rife with such tales. Until the perpetrator of the US made military grade Anthrax attacks is caught, I might be a bit nervous to stand up to the NEO-CONS myself.

Next are my three basic points Mr. Rothschild:

Your 3 points vs. My 3 points - I WIN (PART 2)
Posted by: Corps_8_my_baby on Sep 19, 2006 1:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here are my 3 points Mr. Rothschild:
1. The Three World Trade Center Buildings fell at almost the speed of gravity itself. About 10 seconds for the world trade center. The central columns broke apart in 12 foot sections. This is inconsistent with the "Pancaking floors" theory. Every pancaked steel building in history had intact central columns
and most importantly, slowed as the floors touched. Free fall breaks the all known laws of physics. To believe the pancaked floors theory, you'd have to prove that the building existed in a space bubble where the laws of gravity and thermodynamics were different. Although only a theory, Prof. Jones says that "THERMATE" enhanced explosives are a very plausible explanation for freefall. I am open to others if you have any. But the official story is Physically Impossible. I suspect you know this but were called upon to do your best to muddy the waters with this article.

2. World Trade Center Building 7 had no reason to fall. None. If the stories of the "bite" out of the obscured side, are true... then it had a reason to lean. There was no reason for it's central core to be demolished. There was no jet fuel. There was only a tiny precentage of debris found on other neighboring WTC structures,
There was very little fire and all of it was ORANGE (lower heat) not blue or white (fueled or maximum heat) ... most importantly again, it fell at freefal speed of about 7 seconds, straight down, neatly into it's own footprint. This is absolutely impossible without explosives. None of the other explanations we have heard address the speed
of fall, the direction (straight down), nor the lack of central columns left standing.

3. It's been 5 years. There is footage of the pentagon from the neigboring hotel, the gas station across the highway, a convenience store and the pentagon cameras themselves. Show me a plane hitting the pentagon. It's that simple. Show me and I'll believe it. They can show me but they don't. They instead want me to believe that
Steel and Titanium engines vaporized along with ALL EVIDENCE OF BODIES, WINGS, TAIL, Luggage... this would be the first time in the history of aviation. Believing that something never before seen in the history of airplanes is true, and accepting being kept from the filmed evidence is the choice of a total fool, or a lacky.
More importantly, it's impossible that a plane could have made a turn over the pentagon to begin with... do you know how many surface to air missles guard that complex? Far more than guarded President Bush at his G8 summit a month earlier... and that was quite a few. Then this plane makes a steep (some say near-impossible) turn
over that protected area and is still not fired upon as it lumbers into the most protected structure in the history of the world? Hani Hanjur wasn't just lucky... he was goddamned magic!! Show me the footage, other wise I and all Americans would be fools to believe this fairytale.

» Straw-man loses ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Straw-man loses ... Posted by: famouspipeliner
» Actually,You are 0 for 3 Posted by: Ranillon
Molten Steel in Vast Amounts A month LATER?
Posted by: Corps_8_my_baby on Sep 19, 2006 2:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Huge Amounts of MOLTON STEEL were found in the basements of the WTC a month later? Can anyone scientifically explain how jet fuel... or even thermite reaction fuselage could create this kind of melted steel... and for that long? No. You can't. We need an independent investigation NOW.

john
Posted by: sgammato on Sep 19, 2006 5:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It doesn't take a huge conspiracy to replace awesome governemnt ineptitude. You can still have plenty of ineptitude surrounding a small, important conspiracy. A handful of people who decide to let the attacks happen, for example, would throw a lot of other things into disarray.
The writer of the article tries to discredit our legitimate questions by tying them all into one huge, improbable package.
It is not up to the citizens to prove the conspiracy. We have a crime, a suspect, a motive, and an opportunity. It is up to the governemnt to answer a few simple questions to our satisfaction. Simply calling us ignorant won't make me stop wondering what happened.

Matthew Rothschild, should be told to step down from his position
Posted by: zarman on Sep 19, 2006 5:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a person who lost their brother in the first tower on 9/11, I have a deep interest in the truth of what happened. All I can say now is that my brother was murdered along with 3K other people. Pre-meditated murder. Matthew Rothschild, should be told to step down from his position as his "journalism"? is full of vagaries and misinformation that he expects you to swallow and believe just because he is editor.
I'm amazed at how many people give credence to these theories that 9/11 was not an inside job, thta took months of engineering, planning and multiple actions by many people in the Bush Administration. The World Trade Center could not possibly have collapsed in the way they did and why the Pentagon could not have been struck by that American Airlines jet.

Problem is, some of the best engineers, demolition experts, professors in the country have studied these questions and come up with perfectly logical, scientific explanations for it being an insdie job.

The amount of information being witheld is enough proof that there is a coverup at the highest levels. They have not told the surviving family members ANYTHING! The investigation has been STOPPED by the Bush Administration.



Matthew Rothschild, I wonder how you sleep at night.

Surving brother of Geoffrey Cloud.

The First Amendment rejects red tape, cover-up and double-speak.
Roy Barnes

Conspiracy theories result from government disrespect and government lies
Posted by: Kuber on Sep 19, 2006 7:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Conspiracy theories are the direct result of government continuously disrespecting its people and lying to them.

When you (a bright, intelligent and alert citizen) can't get the truth out of your government, because your government don't respect you enough to level with you, then everything your government says is suspect. And the citizens will need to search for or make up their own truths.

It is inevitable that the conspiracy theories will flow in such instances of government lies and government disrespect. We should be thankful that we don't have even more to contend with.

Let them flow. Let the bright citizens do their research and test their Intuitions until such time that their government respect them enough to level with them.

BBC mini series "The Power of Nightmares"
Posted by: 911 truther on Sep 19, 2006 8:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I highly recommend this to all....whether you believe in conspiracies or not this goes into detail how Al Qaeda doesn't exist how we know it.

BBC mini series...Al Qaeda is a political fantasy.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-
1002626006461047517&q=the+power+of+nightmares

the mighty Osma
Posted by: bgoedecke on Sep 19, 2006 8:55 AM   
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The mighty Osama, sitting in his cave, came up with a brilliant idea - he will bring down the WTC using commercial jets in the US of A! His cohorts say, Osama, those buildings were designed (by structural engineers of all people!) to withstand the impact of such planes! Hush, Osama says, I know enough about engineering to know that these buildings will utterly collapse after the fires created by the impacts will burn off all the fire proofing! He chooses the hijackers carefully and they prove their mettle - with just a little training on Cessna’s, they are able to fly these large jets into skyscrapers, and one hits the Pentagon after performing an amazing turn and lands into the Pentagon without hitting the ground! (And no help from ground control!) But Osama, won't the US military stop these jets? Osama laughs, oh, they are all incompetent! They will not foil our scheme. And so it goes. Then the US jumps up and down and says that they are goin' to get him! But, alas, those incompetent Americans can't do anything. He escaped into another mountain hideout carrying his kidney dialysis machine and video equipment! What a mastermind!

» RE: the mighty Osma Posted by: Corps_8_my_baby
I've Cancelled My Progressive Subscription
Posted by: pelle_in_goal on Sep 19, 2006 9:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Baron Rothschild is right. I'm merely bothered by Rothschild's naivete. Everything done by the Bush Administration both before and since the 9/11 attacks reveals them for the liars tht they are.

But amazingly -- the one time they told the truth was in the Kean Commission Report. A tome done on the Administration's terms, by mostly Administration approved witnesses and experts, under public pressure to even discuss the tragedy at all, and tasked with a pre-determined outcome to be released only after the 2004 elections. "Kean" was to place no actual blame on anybody -- and just to make sure of that -- it was actually supervised by a genuine, board-certified neo-con not named Kean.

That's why Rothschild's "enough" plea stinks. FEMA's version of the WTC 7 collapse starts with:

"The American Society of Civil Engineers and FEMA conducted an in-depth investigation of the World Trade Center. The team members included the director of the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers, the senior fire investigator for the National Fire Protection Association, professors of fire safety, and leaders of some of the top building design and engineering firms, including Skidmore Owings & Merrill in Chicago, Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire in Seattle, and Greenhorne & O'Mara in Maryland."

Yep -- good ol' reliable FEMA. The sheer weight of evidence alone should convince anybody -- especially those folks with inguinal hernias.

And...FEMA's latitude is such that it might as well include the New York phone book, Gone With the Wind, The National Archives, and all the studies of the Quuran ever done. It's only limitation was funding.

Diesel fuel burns at about 140 degrees F. That's why your diesel-engined Mercedes or Peterbilt needs a nuclear chain reaction to turn over the engine on a cold morning. Of course, WTC 7 was an old building. Lots of rolltop desks, horsehair stuffed executive chairs, ball and tack electrical wiring, Persian rugs, and oil lamps burning in cozy offices with wood-slatted Venetian blinds. Surely no place to find flame retardant carpets, plastic furniture, PCs or other electronic equipment, or electrial insulation made from PVCs, polyethylene, acrylics, polyurethane that melt and burn at relatively low temperatures. They also smolder a lot, spray soot on other combustible materials, and...get this...release toxins (including dioxins).

Which is yet another reason to turn off the ventilation system before it kills everybody in the building.

And Rudy already knew that just because the sprinkler system failed in both Twin Towers there was no reason to think it would fail in Building 7.

A mayor would naturally sets up his emergency planning operaton in an adjacent building already hit by debris passing through another adjacent building. In a building where electric service had already been cut and back-up generators ran with inherent and fatal flaws of such magnitude that even a UL "water engineer" could have spotted generator faults in a New York minute. Cut off valves failed and the entire contents of emergency generators' fuel oil tanks sprayed into the building at just the right points to melt structural steel at precisely the right time to precipitate a controlled demolition.

Nobody. Unless that Mayor was contemplating a run for President. By the way: Did Rothschild actually read the conclusion of the WTC 7 FEMA study?

"The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue."

Thank you for writing this article
Posted by: Boomerang on Sep 19, 2006 9:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 9/11 conspiracy nonsense has got to end. It does nothing but discredit the Left as a bunch of insane, paranoid whackos (an assessment which, based on these comments, may be coming true), and it does nothing but provide ammunition for the Right to paint with a broad brush. This is the same hysteria that lets conservatives talk about the Left as a disorganized mass of Hippies and Communists. It's not true, but the insane voices of the hyper-Left pop up to scream that Bush is evil, corporations run the world, and anyone who disagrees with them is a fascist, and it makes it seem like that's what people vote for when they vote Democrat. What a farce.

Sitting in a corner mumbling about conspiracies and corporations does nothing to help the Left. It just makes it appear mentally unstable in the face of smooth-talking, on-message Republicans. Realize that if there's going to be a change, the Left has to stop treating everyone it talks to like they have an IQ of 60 and just "can't see the truth." No one wants to vote for a leader who treats them like an idiot and tells them they're nothing but "sheeple."

If I had the job to discredit valid conspiracy theories ...
Posted by: cold2touch on Sep 19, 2006 10:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would plant totally weird and outlandish ones, like hologram planes, UFOs, etc and conflate them with more reasonable ones and presto! No need for W/H administration to release any documentation pertaining to the event: like what are you, some kind of conspiracy asshole, not to trust your President?

Ditto for people criticizing slaughter in Middle East: why do you hate our freedom, you unpatriotic bastard, don't you support the troops?

So please, don't report me, honest, I do accept the official version.

ROTHSCHILD: You don't want to understand terrorism by proxy.
Posted by: johndoraemi on Sep 19, 2006 10:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your latest article makes a few points. Essentially, you say "these experts are unassailable, end of story."

Well, guess what? I don't need the WTC, the Pentagon or the Pennsylvania site, at all, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt Bush administration complicity.

You present Dr. Griffin's contributions (pretty much as if he were the only challenge), but there are tens of thousands of researchers who have investigated the attacks for years before Griffin ever considered the possibility.

I personally don't trust you, your magazine, or the perspective you purport to bring.

I do trust Paul Thompson, his Complete 9/11 Timeline, and the new film based upon that corroborated evidence of government complicity:

9/11 Press For Truth could be the best and most credible study of September 11th 2001 anywhere. Paul Thompson's Complete 9/11 Timeline provides the research for this documentary.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083

PS

You put a lot of faith in the American Society of Civil Engineers and FEMA (!), who also concluded there were no bombs inside the Murrah Federal Building.

I prefer to defer to a real "expert," Air Force General Ben Partin, who actually investigated the bombing without an agenda, and not under the control and influence of the government. His conclusion is that -- AS THE LOCAL OKLAHOMA NEWS REPORTED -- there were demolition charges inside the Murrah Federal Building, and the truck bomb could not have done that amount of damage as claimed by authorities.

PPS

Bin Laden? You mean the fat guy in that video that didn't look like bin Laden at all?

Or the bin Laden who told the Pakistani newspaper that he didn't do it, and condemned the 9-11 attacks, claiming that Al Qaeda and the US were not enemies (as the US supported Al Qaeda operations in the Balkans).

Or this latest video purporting to show bin Laden with a hijacker reported to be "Alive and well" in Saudi Arabia?

PPPS

To address the "proxy" headline, try investigating the Pakistani ISI, if you give a damn at all about what happened on 9-11. I don't think you do.

CRIMES OF THE STATE

» another great video Posted by: harpy
Left Gatekeepers Exposed
Posted by: johndoraemi on Sep 19, 2006 11:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not hard to tell who's who in these publications. Ask them if they believe the Warren Report. We know the Warren Report was a pile of shyte. There is no "magic bullet." Oswald did not shoot Kennedy from the front, the bullet entering his face and exiting the back of his head, with a grapefruit sized hole.

The next glaring exposure of their bias and government influence is with September 11. If they won't present ALL the evidence of cover up and complicity (such as the Pakistani ISI chief ordering $100,000 to Mohamad Atta, and his mysterious trip to meet Bush operatives (incluging RICHARD ARMITAGE) before the attacks,as well as during (PORTER GOSS) and after, all the while defending the Bush Team for high treason, calling us lunatics for bringing up 5 year old news articles which show complicity, complicity, complicity.

Those publications are worthless, controlled, compromised, a tool for the powerful to contol the weak (you and me).

Be on guard for the "alternative" disinformation narratives. They are ever present, and a part of modern life. (search "left gatekeepers" for many interesting articles).

DEBUNKING911.COM JUST HELPED MY CASE!
Posted by: johndoraemi on Sep 19, 2006 1:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oooops. The "debunkers" pushed a little too far.

In their condescending "REAL CONSPIRACY THEORY" page, they compare the 9-11 Conspiracy (which is to them synonymous with Loose Change) with the Iraq intelligence conspiracy:

"The evidence for a conspiracy to use 9/11 to invade Iraq is long. While there is not one shred of evidence the government blew up the World Trade Center, there is evidence they used the tragedy to remove Saddam Hussein using poor WMD evidence.

Below is a small list of people who blew the whistle on the misuse of pre-war intelligence."

http://www.debunking911.com/conspiracy.htm

What these geniuses fail to connect is that these are the SAME PEOPLE.

You have just helped destroy their character by admitting that the Bush neocons engage in conspiracies.

In your zeal to discredit the 9-11 Truth Seekers, you have admitted that the people controlling the government are guilty of conspiracy as well as War Crimes and Crimes Against the Peace (the "Supreme International Crime" US Judge Robert Jackson, Nuremberg)

Taking this as a starting point, you admit that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Bolton et al. have no problem conspiring to kill a quarter of a million people.

But, you cannot possibly consider that they would kill 3,000.

This is the mentality we are up against. And this guy is pretty reasonable by right wing standards.

CRIMES OF THE STATE

Documentary: 9/11 Press For Truth

avoid the two extremes
Posted by: spanky on Sep 19, 2006 1:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are different levels of complicity. Planting explosives in buildings or faking crashes would be pretty extreme (though I don't dismiss any of this) and difficult to pull off, and get away with. But diverting or delaying air force resources in anticipation of the attacks, for example, would be much easier to pull off. That's still complicity.

This is not just about plane crashes and building collapses. There are myriad other unexplained coincidences, conflicts of interest and reality gaps.

In between the official story and the wildest alternate theories lies the truth. This article, and others published recently on AlterNet, does absoultely nothing to get us closer to the truth.

» RE: avoid the two extremes Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: avoid the two extremes Posted by: spanky
Digging your own graves
Posted by: longlivecheney on Sep 19, 2006 2:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not sure if Democrats understand it at the moment, but the conspiracy theories of 9/11 are going to severely hurt them in the upcoming elections. Far-left wing liberals are making themselves increasingly irrelevant, and I hope you understand why people won't elect Democrats into real seats of power after stuff like this.

We're reminded every day by the left how much the world hates us, especially the Middle East. But when those who hate us so much actually attack us, the same leftists refuse to believe that Islamic extremists would actually go through with their calls for jihad. Don't call us - the American people - stupid or ignorant for not voting you into power.

» So we're clear... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: So we're clear... Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: Digging your own graves Posted by: spanky
» RE: Digging your own graves Posted by: longlivecheney
» RE: POP goes the Denial Bubble Posted by: longlivecheney
who is matt rothschild?
Posted by: jesusoverisrael on Sep 19, 2006 2:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i knew him at college. he was an anti apartheid activist, who spent most of his time trying to get harvard to divest from their stock portfolio all american companies doing business in south africa. of course the rothschild's practically OWN south africa in the form of de beers and anglo gold. so matt's activities would seem to be window dressing for the new world order banksters. we know who they are. and so does matt.

Take Osama at his word??!!
Posted by: collective_intel on Sep 19, 2006 3:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You have got to be kidding me. Rothchild uses the same lame excuse the administration and media have used to avoid a real investigation into who, how, and why 911 happened. So Osama confessed, supposedly, by video or audio tape, that was verified as 'authentic' by the Administration itself. Even if Osama's himself did issue this confession (a fact disputed by comments above), how is this possibly sufficient evidence to pass a verdict on the greatest crime ever to occur on American Soil. Weirdo Micheal Karr "confessed" to killing Jon Benet - but that was not nearly enough to even get him to trial. Why should we take Osama at his word, Rothchild? Do you know him to be trustworthy?

And why bother trying to pass off that fake Osama video?
Posted by: axolotl_helix on Sep 19, 2006 5:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know, the one that doesn't even look remotely like him?

roy
Posted by: roy on Sep 19, 2006 6:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OK, There are no conspiracies, except from white trash, undereducated, boorish,ad infinitum ad nauseum,right? On the other hand ,to all you tax payin' ,law abidin' "progressives" just keep votin'. I don't wanna' hear tell how the votin' machines have stolen yer votes and so on. You're all guilty, foremost for your conformity to lifestyle politics, and secondly for posing as someone without the blood of innocents upon your tax-paying hands. So lay off the pathetic moralising and condemnation of those who might also want to question 9/11. I write "ALSO" because to us, the issues are much broader than mere theories. From global warming to DU, East Timor and Palestine. What most of us don't have is the priveledge to dismiss ideas that may threaten our standings in the left.

Any more proof needed?
Posted by: bullwhip7 on Sep 19, 2006 11:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That progressives, extreme liberals and extreme left demos are harming the chances of the democratic party?

We have here a pretty succint article explaining away the `doubts´ non-scientists have about the WTC disaster. Yet, like a rubber duck, they keep floating back up. This time the doubts are cast about funds wired by the ISI, obscure physics and weak chemistry. Will they never let it be? Talk about whipping a dead horse...

The only problem - like the keeping on with the 2ooo election - is that the country, indeed the world, has moved on. Makes the demos look... well, extreme, out of touch and uncompromising. No big surprise that with such an unpopular president, there is NOT a big swing towards the left.

There just isn´t a good leader there. The party´s leaders, in their effort to be everything to everyone, are simply alienating the mainstream of the party. Carter and Kerry all over again. Looking at the polls, and then taking a position. Yeah, like the US populace has a third grade mentality...

Until there is a strong leader in the party who´s willing to take a stand based on his/her convictions - regardless of what the polls say - and with a clear idea of how to improve America (not the demo party´s chances), it just ain´t gonna happen.

Too bad.

» RE: Any more proof needed? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Any more proof needed? Posted by: spanky
» RE: Any more proof needed? Posted by: bullwhip7
» RE: Any more proof needed? Posted by: spanky
» RE: Any more proof needed? Posted by: spanky
» RE: Any more proof needed? Posted by: bullwhip7
» RE: Any more proof needed? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Any more proof needed? Posted by: spanky
Another "Leftwing" Gatekeeper
Posted by: LeftWright on Sep 20, 2006 2:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Rothschild is just another "leftwing" gatekeeper working overtime and not worth our time. While I and many others could completely refute all his points I will not bother to deconstruct his commentary. I just have two words for him and all those who doubt the truth of 9/11:

MOLTEN STEEL

There has been no "official" or scientifically verifiable explanation for the large amounts of molten steel found at the sites other than controlled demolition. Even the NIST report, the most recent and lengthy attempt to confuse the stark reality of the facts, makes no attempt to explain the molten steel.

There are 1000's of unanswered questions and more arising every day about the events surrounding September 11, 2001.

Mr. Rothschild, I would ask you to answer only four of these questions and publish your findings publicly. They are:

1) Who engaged in the short selling of the affected stocks (American, UAL, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, Munich Re, etc) and the unusually high purchases of U.S. Treasury Notes in the period just prior to September 11, 2001?

2) What are the titles of the 3,000 to 4,000 cases the SEC was investigating which were destroyed when WTC 7 fell?

3) What were David Frasca's (FBI) orders and who did he report to?

4) Who did Mahmood Ahmed (ISI) meet with during his visit to the U.S. just before, during and just after September 11, 2001?


Why are there so many articles in the MSM and online trying to refute the facts of 9/11?

Recent polls show 42% of Americans believe the Bush Administration is covering something up, 36% believe the administration let it happen (or made it happen) and 16% believe WTC 1,2 and 7 were brought down by controlled demolition. Modern, message politics is completley poll driven and the demand for 9/11 truth is swelling to its inevitable tipping point. Thus, we see the increasingly desperate and transparent attempts to fight the losing battle against the truth; denying facts and rewriting science as needed.

The flaming elephant in the room is 9/11 truth.

The truth shall set you free. Love is the only way forward.

Birds of a feather
Posted by: carrion on Sep 20, 2006 8:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ROTHSCHILD: See also Matthew James Looram, Jr., Jacob Marks.
Rothschild, Beryl E. — of Ohio. Republican. Candidate for U.S. Representative from Ohio 11th District, 1992. Still living as of 1992.
Rothschild, George W. (c.1916-1996) — of Illinois. Circuit judge in Illinois, 1983-95. Died in Evanston Hospital, Evanston, Cook County, Ill., June 25, 1996. Burial location unknown.
Rothschild, Henry See V. Henry Rothschild
Rothschild, Joseph — of San Francisco, Calif. Democrat. Alternate delegate to Democratic National Convention from California, 1916. Burial location unknown.
Rothschild, Matthew — of San Francisco, Calif. Democrat. Delegate to Democratic National Convention from California, 2004. Still living as of 2004.
Rothschild, Samuel — of Gloversville, Fulton County, N.Y. Republican. Delegate to Republican National Convention from New York, 1936. Presumed deceased. Burial location unknown.
Rothschild, V. Henry — Democrat. Candidate for Justice of New York Supreme Court 9th District, 1959. Still living as of 1959.

FED UP AND DISGUSTED...IMPEACH AND JAIL THESE MASS MURDERERS
Posted by: lamoyer0 on Sep 20, 2006 10:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
9/11?
SHOW ME THE BODIES.
SHOW ME HOW 3 BUILDINGS AND THOUSANDS OF BODIES WERE REDUCED TO BREATHABLE POWDER.
SHOW ME THE PLANE WRECKAGE...PENTAGON, WTC, PENNSYLVANIA.
SHOW ME THE PERPS/HIJACKERS WHO ARE STILL ALIVE
SHOW ME THE MANIFESTS...WHERE THERE ARE NO HIJACKERS NAMES.
SHOW ME WHERE THE GOLD FROM BLDG 7 IS.
SHOW ME THE MOLTEN STEEL...AND WHY.
SHOW ME... AGAIN.... BLDG 7 COMING DOWN...AND I'LL SHOW YOU THE SQUIBS FROM EXPLOSIVES THAT TAKE A WEEK OR MORE TO PLANT.

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!

SHOW ME THESE BASTARDS IN JAIL.

THE MANHATTAN PROJECT WAS KEPT SECRET BY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE...WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THIS COULDN'T BE KEPT SECRET?

THE FULL STORY HASN'T BEEN TOLD... BY THE ADMISSION OF THE 9/11 COMMISSION.... AND IT NEVER WILL, UNLESS DEMOCRATS ARE ELECTED AND RE-OPEN THE INVESTIGATION.

YES, BUSH, CHENEY, ET AL, HAVE COMMITTED MASSIVE OTHER CRIMES, LOOTING THIS COUNTRY FOR THEIR PERSONAL PROFIT, POWER AND ADDICTIONS.... MASS-MURDER FOR PROFIT, USING OUR CHILDREN AS PAWNS IN THEIR MILITARY SEIZURE MACHINE.

LET'S PUT THEM IN JAIL FOR THAT FIRST...AND RIGHT NOW.

THEY SHOULD BE IMMEDIATELY GOOSE-STEPPED RIGHT OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE INTO A JAIL CELL.... IF ONLY TO SAVE THE WORLD FROM THEIR MADNESS AND THEIR PLANNED, INSANE DESTRUCTION.

CAN WE BLAME ANYONE IN THIS WORLD FOR MAKING FILMS ABOUT ASSASSINATING THEM???? I THINK NOT.

DESPERATION, EXPLOITATION, HUMAN SUFFERING..ALL TURN OTHERWISE PEACEFUL HUMAN BEINGS INTO ANIMALS...CAPABLE OF ANYTHING. NO ONE SHOULD BE THE LEAST BIT SURPRISED WHEN SOMEONE GOES AFTER THIS ADMINISTRATION. NO ONE. I DON'T EVEN BELIEVE IN CAPITAL PUNISHMENT, BUT I THINK THE WORLD WOULD REJOICE AT THEIR REMOVAL FROM OFFICE...BY ANY MEANS.

BUT LET'S DO IT PEACEFULLY...AND QUICKLY! LET'S NOT BECOME LIKE "THEM."

IMPEACHMENT SAYS, "WE'RE SORRY!!!"

whooliebacon
Posted by: whooliebacon on Sep 20, 2006 11:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have accepted that I am a conspiracy theorist. I would prefer a lable that is closer to the truth. One in which facts equal truth. Maybe I am a factorist. But the facts on 9/11 are there for anyone to read and understand from who had motive to who had the ability. It is extremely odd that the Bush administration would not allow us to simply "follow the money" and get the facts. While secrecy is the first tool of the incompetent, the only way for 9/11 to happen with Bush in charge is simply that Bush isn't in charge. From all my reading, I have concluded that the New World Order Bush handlers have for the time being "cooled" their objective of World Domination fearing a total American Revolution. Educated people can make only one conclusion regarding 9/11...an inside job.

911 Hoax
Posted by: Jeff432 on Sep 20, 2006 1:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
never mind David Ray Griffin, who has done no original research on 9/11.

the real site to watch is:
http://www.911Hoax.com

as incredible as it seems, no planes struck the WTC!

WTC7
Posted by: bernarda on Sep 20, 2006 3:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Probably another blogger has said it, but the 911 Commission report said that they didn't know why WTC7 collapsed.

Bush lied before 911, he lied after 911, he lied about WMD's in Iraq, but amazingly he, well his administration, told the truth in this one instance.

Give me a break.

» RE: WTC7 Posted by: kogwonton
Afraid to see the light?
Posted by: harpy on Sep 20, 2006 4:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is just another example of an inhabitant of Plato's Cave, who will only see the images they've been told to see, and anything else is rejected, often with violence. Watch this video, http://www.brasscheck.com/videos/911/911mysteries.html,
which will blow away the author's pre-approved "facts". And several of the others above are right, being a progressive means you do question what you're told.
As to those who say this administration is too imcompetent to pull it off, get real. They're imcompetent when they want to be, like with Katrina, for a purpose. With the Bushes in charge of the building's security, there was ample opportunity to set it all up.
Evidence is heavily against the official myth, it's time to wake up to that.

9-11 False Flag Attack
Posted by: Bushguiltyof911 on Sep 20, 2006 6:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am the webmaster of www.911insidejob.net. The official 9/11 conspiracy theory is almost completely unfounded in fact and is an utter and complete cover-up of the truth that this administration was involved in the planning and orchestration of 9/11.

this article is one in many efforts by the perpetrators of 9/11 and the mainstream media which is controlled by these perpetrators to misinform and confuse the general populace. I have posted on my web site a very good article which can be found at the following URL:http://www.bushstole04.com/Assessment_911_Truth.htm

The only way that the truth will be told is if enough people demand it. The firemen in New York City are very well aware that the World Trade Center towers and World Trade Center 7 were taken down by controlled demolitions.
Please go to my web site where you will find many articles, streaming videos and links to other web sites about the lies and deceptions of the 9/11 Commission.
The following is a link to a streaming video which is 30 minutes long and which is one of the best factual and scientific debunking of the official 9/11 conspiracy told by the Bush administration and the mainstream media from September 11, 2001 to date. Please watch this video and then pass it along to other union members.

To watch this movie just click on the name of the movie “9/11 mystery movie”.
9-11 Mystery Movie

The Author of this article is a fool
Posted by: kogwonton on Sep 20, 2006 9:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author of this article has shown himself to be an idiot. People who are suspicious of the events of 911 are BEGGING for an honest and open investigation, and would LOVE to be proven wrong in their suspicions. The evidence that something stinks is positively overwhelming, and the 911 report has been proven a fraud many times over. The 911 commission spent $15 million to cover this thing up, while the Clinton sex scandal was worth $70 million? If that is the case, then a stain on a skirt should be a life altering event 'creating a separation of before/after the event in the minds of all americans'. The fact is, there is more evidence against this administrations' criminality than there ever was against Clinton's - by a factor of about a thousand (and I know Clinton was no angel - see Vince Foster).

If the U.S. Government can use the 'war on terror' and 'national security' to justify shredding the constitution, and spy on american citizens - I say the same principles should be applied to corporate 'citizens' who also enjoy rights under that constitution (who should also be prepared to give them up in the name of the war on terror and national security).

This means we need to find out who placed put options on United and American Airlines. I realise that private investment firms enjoy the privilege of making anonymous transactions, but as citizens of the U.S. they should be willing to give up their privacy just as any other citizen. We would quickly discover the truth about who did what on Sept. 11, 2001. I would debate ANYONE about this.

I personally asked the Inspector General of the Justice Department these questions:

1. who conducted the insider trading in the weeks before sept. 11?

2. why was the head of ISI (pakistani intelligence chief) in D.C. having breakfast with our Senate intelligence committee on the morning of 9/11?

3. What is being done in the aftermath when it was reported that this ISI chief ordered $100,000 paid to Mohammed Atta one week before 9/11?

4. Why was the Bin Laden family flown out of the country when all other aircraft were grounded?


I have a lot more questions than that, such as why Daniel Pearl was killed while investigating the Pakistan/Al Qaeda connection, why OBL's whereabouts on the morning of 9/11 were known to the U.S. (in Pakistan receiving dialysis under pakistani guard - and released) and yet we've not caught him?

I could go on and on for a very long time with both questions, impossible coincidences, and evidence for complicity from within our own government. But suffice to say that the 9/11 commission report is an abysmal fraud, and I want a REAL investigation - one that includes the possibility of false flag terror, and examines ALL evidence in a public arena. This government has destroyed the trust of the American People (what little there was left to us) and we will only get it back with transparency and public examination of all the evidence.

Building 7 and Silversteins comments.
Posted by: Penetralia on Sep 20, 2006 11:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What about Larry Silverstein admitting on npr that they had called for the demolition of building 7 ?

War games for real on 9/11
Posted by: drdrdrr on Sep 21, 2006 3:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another big conspiracy question is, "Did Osama Bin Laden know the US would be vulnerable on 9/11?" I can accept that Osama bin Laden was responsible for orchestrating the attack. The real conspiracy surrounds the unbelievable vulnerability of US air space on September 11, 2001.

Why were most US air defense aircraft assigned to protect New York and Washington, D.C. deployed elsewhere on 9/11? Answer: US military exercises. Why were war games allowed to take place during summer 2001, a period when there had been incredibly high levels of terrorist "chatter" and the CIA was on highest alert? According to the New York Times, only a dozen planes, all belonging to the Air National Guard, were assigned to protect the continental United States on the morning of 9/11. None of them were in the air.

It is possible there was a critical intelligence breach, or leak, to explain how major NORAD exercises could coincide with terrorists launching a major coordinated strike against the United States. The wargames created confusion and made it much more difficult to manage the threat. It is reported that one of the exercises was Vigilant Warrior, a "live-fly" exercise with a real commerical aircraft in the skies on a simulated hijack. For more information about US military exercises scheduled for September 11th, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
War_games_in_progress_on_September_11,_2001

Perspectives and inquiries:

(1) The 9/11 attackers acheived spectacular success because sufficient Air Force assets were unavailable to stop the planes from striking their targets. Fighter planes should have been in a position to engage at least one of the jets that hit the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

(2) Especially the Pentagon--possessing among the most heavily watched and protected airspace in the world--should have been able to repel the attack prior to being struck. Why were surface-to-air missiles not used to defend the Pentagon?

(3) Is it possible that Al Qaeda learned the timing of the US military exercises, and Osama bin Laden knew the US would be vulnerable to attack on September 11th? If so, how did they acquire this intelligence?

(4) On 9/11 were "simulated" hijack jets (NORAD exercise) mixed up with the "real" hijack jets on FAA monitors, creating confusion?

(5) It was a leadership failure to leave New York and Washington DC vulnerable to attack, especially during a period of high terrorist threat. Evidence that Pres. Bush was aware of the urgency of the threat is the Presidential Daily Brief from August 6, 2001 (Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US): http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/terrorism/80601pdb.html

Why did Alternet print this bullshit article?
Posted by: diggins on Sep 21, 2006 2:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The people in the fucking building, including the FDNY, said bombs were going off.

The FDNY and police warned of bombs in the buildings, as well.

This is all on video. You have to be real asshole to try cover up this kind of crime.

Firemen and Cops: "Bombs in the buildings"
Posted by: diggins on Sep 21, 2006 3:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there were actually a lot of people in SD who already knew
Posted by: diggins on Sep 21, 2006 3:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
movies shown at the downtown theater in Rapid City, SD on 9/11/06

82 people bought tickets to the show which was applauded unanimously

911 Revisited is being shown again soon

911 Snake Oil = War Of Terror
Posted by: Hal on Sep 21, 2006 11:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my view, this comes to a single core truth:

What’s on the table as official 911 snake oil is another blood money war of terror – as all wars must be. Cover-up as public crime steals lives and treasure for private lust, evil as its acts.

As America backs into its 911 foisted cul-de-sac at a thousand miles an hour we have a mindless cheering section at every speed bump. The last stop is no bump and denial will not make it so.

Times change. Human nature does not.

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