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Torture Won't Stop Terror

By Larry C. Johnson, AlterNet. Posted September 8, 2006.


Bush says secret prisons are keeping us safe, but the CIA has learned the hard way that torture leads to faulty intelligence.
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If we had to rely solely on the word of George W. Bush about the progress in the war on terrorism and the value of information obtained from Muslim prisoners in U.S. custody, we would be in trouble. Bush's speech Wednesday from the White House was both self-serving and misleading. I give the president credit for one thing -- he's a great propagandist.

Let's ignore for the moment that terrorist attacks in which people have been killed or wounded have quadrupled since 2001. Are you getting this? We have had four times as many attacks with people being killed and wounded by terrorists, and Bush wants you to believe you are better off. But I digress.

According to Bush, secret prisons and torture have kept America safe. Not entirely true. While fessing up to the secret prisons, one of the critical things Bush failed to tell the American people was that CIA interrogators learned the hard way that torture was not an effective interrogation method. Books written by Jim Risen and Ron Suskind during the past two years provide compelling accounts that torture against people, particularly Khalid Sheikh Mohamad, was ineffective. Suskind recounts that Mohamad, one of the masterminds behind the 9/11 attack, was waterboarded, a technique designed to make you feel like you are drowning. Interrogators also threatened to rape and murder his family. Mohamad reportedly replied, "Do what you will, my family will be with God."

Bush also neglected to mention that, despite his previous criticism of the Clinton administration for not fighting terrorism as a military threat, almost all of the Al Qaeda operatives cited in his speech were captured through intelligence operations. In other words, most of the successes we have achieved as a nation in tracking down and capturing terrorists has been the work of law enforcement and and intelligence officials, not our soldiers.

Another thing not mentioned by Bush in the speech concerns the CIA officers who first told Washington Post reporter Dana Priest about the secret prisons; they spoke up because they were alarmed by the administration's violations of the Geneva Accords and its refusal to recognize that torture was counterproductive.

Bush, being Bush, can't help himself and fills his speech with genuine bad guys and hapless souls who had no means or ability to carry out terrorist attacks. Iyman Faris, for example, is once again trottted out as an Al Qaeda terrorist who was going to take down the Brooklyn Bridge. Yet, subsequent investigation demonstrated he was a man of wild dreams with no competence to harm the bridge. He was the type of guy who could be conned into buying the bridge, but he had trouble blowing up balloons.

The Bush con game -- to persuade the American people that we are safer only if Republicans are elected -- is wearing thin. Wednesday's speech was remarkable in one regard. Bush at least fessed up that he was witting of the secret prisons. This is good because at least the CIA won't be fingered as the rogue elephant who took it upon itself to torture Muslim prisoners. That was a decision made at the highest levels by political officials. If Congress decides to take up this issue and put in place a legal procedure for trying and punishing those individuals who are serious about killing Americans, they can help start the process of removing this stain on our national honor.

During the Cold War we fought the Soviet Union, which was a master at using secret prisons and torture. We won the Cold War in part because we at least knew such behavior is reprehensible. Now, in the midst of a newly declared nonwar war, we have met the enemy and surrendered our nation's integrity and honor. Republicans and Democrats need to come together on one critical point -- when it comes to fighting terrorists, we cannot and should not act like terrorists. That's a point George Bush still does not grasp.

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true
Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 8, 2006 12:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A true rendition of the Bushies' gross renditions. Now you know why it is that I never listen to any of the Cheney/Bush propaganda rants and why you should not listen to any of the Cheney/Bush propaganda rants. Instead, impeach the whole criminal gang of Bushie war/propaganda criminals.

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» RE: true Posted by: adp3d
When will our government turn on us?
Posted by: mat38 on Sep 8, 2006 3:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"During the Cold War we fought the Soviet Union, which was a master at using secret prisons and torture. We won the Cold War in part because we at least knew such behavior is reprehensible.'

The scariest thing about our Pentagon led military dictatorship is that at which point will they beign these practices on us. Most authoritarian governments do it to their own people to keep form losing power. It is all but inevetiable.

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» Russians Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Russians Posted by: Shehova
» RE: ussians Posted by: Ouelle
» We tortured too. Posted by: scott balogh
An eye for an eye ...
Posted by: Dawn L on Sep 8, 2006 4:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder if it has ever occurred to any of these geniuses that by approving torture against prisoners of the U.S., the Bush administration has also made it highly likely that U.S. citizens taken prisoner by enemies are much more likely to be subjected to torture as retaliation?

And if it has ever occurred to them, whether they give a damn?

My guess is that the answer to both questions is a thunderous NO!

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» RE: An eye for an eye ... Posted by: Swatopluk
» RE: An eye for an eye ... Posted by: CW4RETIRED
» RE: An eye for an eye ... Posted by: medbear
Three Axes Of Evil Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld!!!
Posted by: lively56 on Sep 8, 2006 4:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Need I say more!!!

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Three Axis Of Evil Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld!!!
Posted by: lively56 on Sep 8, 2006 4:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Need I say more!!!

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Stop calling people TERRORISTS!!!
Posted by: scott balogh on Sep 8, 2006 7:08 AM   
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We are and have been for many years involved in a rebellion. Rebels use sneak attacks to call attention to their cause. The rebels have a cause. The key is to understand what the cause is. It is NOT jealousy or hating freedom. I think it is in part the presence of western influences, including military and industrial, if not religious and cultural, in their lands. Am i wrong here? Is it about changing cultures from outside their land? Would it be helpful to try to understand what the hell these people want and then do something about it? Or, are we going to continue to thrust our interests down their throats?

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» Only losers are TERRORISTS!!! Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: cultural imperialism Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: cultural imperialism Posted by: fixitt
TORTURE JUST RATIONAL FOR SADISM
Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Sep 8, 2006 7:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What evidence (rhetoric duly aside) is there that the "Gitmo" torture is meant to have any constructive purpose?

Futhermore --

“During the Cold War we fought the Soviet Union, which was a master at using secret prisons and torture. We won the Cold War in part because we at least knew such behavior is reprehensible.”

In fact torture and terrorism have widely been used by the US. My father was witness to it in Vietnam, e.g.

Also, it is quite arrogant (and also false) to assume “we” won the cold war. It was internal dissent in those countries that really brought Soviet Union down. In fact the US explicitly undermined efforts toward German reunification at the end of WWII. Naturally we have been quite happy to take credit though. We need to be much more careful with historical facts, at least if we are to have any credibility in condemning the mainstream media.

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You guys are wrong on this one...
Posted by: Scientz on Sep 8, 2006 8:08 AM   
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Torture is ALWAYS used in counter insurgency warfare.

ALWAYS.

Whereas I doubt its effectiveness in combatting terrorism, especially when dealing with compartmentalized cells who know very little about one another, it is an ugly fact of CI warfare.

Ask the Brits, they know all about it.

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» What? Facts make Politics Now?! Posted by: kenadrian
"Does torture happen?" Yes. Now what?
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Sep 8, 2006 9:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We all know that torture,is one of the things 'that happens' in wars and military occupations -- like rape, robbery, black marketeering, summary executions.

Until now, "Prostitution" has also been considered one of the natural and inevitable consquences of having a military force in contact with a civilian population -- yet in Iraq, it doesn't seem to be happening. Why?

Simply: the chain of command won't tolerate it. Because the Generals demand it, the Captains are making sure the Sergeants keep their Privates under control. That is one difference between a modern Army and a rabble in arms ... orders, when given, are obeyed.

But in the absence of orders, soldiers will 'exercise intitiative,' and one thing leads to another -- vide: 'Abu Ghraib'.

And, frankly, if there hadn't been a sexual component to the Abu Ghraib abuse, and if there handn't been a cute little girl-soldier involved -- how shocked would the great American people really have been? Since then we've heard US Senators talking about 'water boarding' and 'stress positioning' as if these were, maybe, fraternity hazing pranks taken a step too far ... a 'you shouldn't oughta do that' thing -- not a thing that ought to be stopped immediately, much less punished.

George Bush seems to be gambling that his Base ... and the rest of the American people either 1) will approve of regrettable but neccessary 'strong measure' to 'keep us safe.' or 2) take pornographic pleasure in the torment of others.

The success of TV shows like "Alias" and "24 Hours" suggests that Georgie isn't such a dummie as we like to think.

Oh, there will be hand wringing, and turgid rhetoric ... and the 14 Specially Rendered prisioners may be tried in something resembling a well-run summary court marshal --

But in the privacy of the voting booth will Americans vote their disgust with torture, or will they decide that "the bad guys had it coming -- Thank G-d, every day, for George Bush who had the courage to do what needed to be done?"

We shall see ...

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The Dark Ages Are Almost Upon Us
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 8, 2006 11:31 AM   
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Besides producing dubious intelligence at best, the use of torture is a repudiation of what the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights stand for, it is a repudiation of the Magna Carta, it is a reputidation of the Bible and Jesus and virtually all the major religions in the world, and is a repuditation of democracy and the progress of civilization itself. It is a return to the rule of the King, where the King (now His Majesty GW Bush) is the police, the judge, the jury, and the torturer all rolled into one. It is a sure sign of the disintegration of American society to tolerate this, and as others have pointed out, it may not be long at all before the "king" turns on his own people, that being those who dare to criticize him. If this is how business is to be conducted, we might as well throw in the towel now, we are finished, and ready for a return to another thousand years of the Dark Ages.

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Torture doesn't work
Posted by: bookwoman on Sep 8, 2006 1:00 PM   
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Every Torturer since Torquemada and before could tell you that torture doesn't work. Most people will tell you anything you want to hear, even if they have to make it up, to get the pain to stop. Therefore, the only people gaining from torture are those who inflict the pain. The next question is what kind of a sick thrill do they get out of hurting people.

In the meantime, we send troops into areas to capture terroists based on lies and made up data, and those troops can get hurt.

I hope Congress and the Courts hold the line on the new Bush rules and do the decent thing for the first time in six years.

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» Torture might work Posted by: medbear
» Very good points Posted by: CW4RETIRED
» RE: Very good points Posted by: medbear
» Thanks Posted by: CW4RETIRED
none
Posted by: leonardfeingold on Sep 8, 2006 1:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just how do you know for a fact that the treatment of these characters in secret prisons did not produce valuable information that affected our security.It seems to me you are writing fiction. At this point I dont one way or another, but I can discriminate my beliefs from my hopes or political leanings from facts. To say that tough treatment or light torture never works is just pure nonsense. It all depends. I noticed these two reporters who were captured recently in Gaza bowed down to become so called muslins for fear of death. Of course not everyone would do that; egs, the Italian Journalist who was beheaded and said essentially f... you when asked to assume the subersivent posture. The point is don't make these ridiculous remarks that bla bla never works. Sure it never works to run your car on water, but rarely do we have such cut and dry events. Of course, from reading stuff here on this blog, I gather it is de riguer to allow fantasy and emotion take the place of facts.

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Is there hope?
Posted by: EuSapiens on Sep 8, 2006 2:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Im new to this comment posting thing... actually, i "stumbled" on this page and to read this story. I´m an anthropology student in Portugal (dont mind my english) and i do have strong opinions about the US foreign policy (and all the others that go along, including my own country - for those who dont know, it was here that Bush oficially declared war on iraq, a big blow in my pride about my nationality), sometimes so strong taht someone would think i am anti-american.
Well, sometimes i am; i hate mcdonalds and all the other multinational headless corporations (obviously not only american based) that suck every possible resource on this planet, with the single incompreensible(?) purpose of making more money than anyone can conceive. With the passing of the years, i started to understand that bad guys dont come from the US alone but from all 4 corners of the world. My academic instruction made me realize that everything depends more on Perspective than it seems. This made me become increasingly more critic about what happens in my own country.
But one thing is certain, the US as some 140 million people, almost more military than Portugal´s population and many million more of international "folowers" (talking about governments); so, its a model for the entire world. One thing that happens in big countries is the huge distance that goes from "normal" citizens to the government. It happens here too but politicians have too work much harder to convince people to agree to certain decisions (portugal was on the top 20 chart for freedom of speech and journalistic imparciality; the US didnt get a very good score..).
Im saying this because one of the things i do believe is that americans ,as others on a smaller scale (or not), do not receive enough (quantity and quality) info to have an idea of the interests behind many political decisions . Sometimes its ridiculous the way govermnents lie and contradict themselves. They DO know that an ignorant person is a happy person (at least he wont make any trouble, like going on protests).

So... all of this is just because, when i read these kinds of views (especially from people who live in the US), it gives me a little hope. Hope that im not the only one (thats for sure) that thinks the state of things comes from human greed and that people are REALLY starting to open their eyes and refusing pre conceived ideas about Others and Ourselves.. I am not the most active protester, but sometimes i make my point... keep doing it too.. thanks for the hope shot... :)

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» RE: Is there hope? Posted by: leftisright
USA: The Prettiest Girl Turned Into the Cheapest Whore
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 8, 2006 4:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One thing, I think even King George's defenders need to admit, and take a look at, is what has happened to the world opinion of the USA. It is in the deep bargain basement my friends, where the garbage disposal and trash bins are. It is not so much that the USA is now at this level completly, like some 3rd world hellhole that routinely tortures everybody even arrested. It is however that the USA HAS COME DOWN FROM SUCH LOFTY HEIGHTS. We were the world's envy on human rights, on civil rights, the country everyone looked up to. The land of freedom. Now, it's as though the prettiest girl in the world turned herself into the cheapest prostitute imaginable. It is a horrible disgrace for the USA. Not only that, have you seen the Arab and World press and what they say? Take a look!
Let's say torture even gleaned a little valuable information. Because of our reputation now however being so bad, that is a firm inducement and recruiting tool for hundreds, if not even thousands of terrorists. They read about and hear about America the tyrant on Al Jazeera, and they are on there way to defend Islam.

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» Not Islam Posted by: Ouelle
Torture Making Things "Safer"...
Posted by: kenadrian on Sep 8, 2006 10:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even if that statement were true (which it clearly isn't), the real slight-of-hand is the notion that America can/will ever be COMPLETELY safe. This has been Bush's new wordplay "We're safer now but not completely safe."

Let's face facts here... There's no such thing as a 100% safe America and there never will be.

Now, as for the idea that America is SAFER today than it was ten years ago, well... that's just horse-hockey to quote a favourite fitcitious Colonel from the M*A*S*H t.v. series. It's absolute non-sense. America has never been more hated in its history than it is now?

... and WHY is that, prey tell? Well, it MIGHT have something to do with the analogy a friend and fellow Canadian made the other day during a dinner conversation.

America goes around telling everyone how great it is. It's the greatest country on the planet. The best. Nobody is better. In fact, any American will tell you that America is superior to every other country on earth in every way. America is stronger. American is smarter. America is morally superior.

Blah, blah, blah...

Now if you had a dinner guest (let's make that guest a teenager since America is younger than most of the other countries) who came over to your house and spoke of him/herself like this way and then started waving a gun in your face DEMANDING that you be "more American", wouldn't you want to throw that sorry *ss arrogant brat out of your home?

That was his analogy and frankly, while I love most of my American friends, that's how your gov't behaves - like an arrogant teenager with a gun to people's heads.

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The other way around...
Posted by: talkville on Sep 9, 2006 5:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...that torture leads to faulty intelligence"

More accurate, when all is said and done, would be that faulty intelligence leads to torture. Our current 'leaders' operate by the process of Will, not Reason. "Provide me with a list of reasons to do what I'm going to do anyhow; 'cause I want to". Then just dress up the list of reasons with the latest spiffy, 'creative' language and proceed to 'kickin' ass!'

The very fact that the merits of torture are even being debated carries us back and behind Nurenburg, the U.N., the League of Nations and even further. One can already see behind Westphalia and catch a glimmer of the "Glorious Middle Ages". Ah, progress!

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ADMITTING TORTURE
Posted by: Burtonger on Sep 9, 2006 12:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IMPEACH-PROSECUTE-EXECUTE
Get these White house super criminals in jail or executed,before they kill more people in the name of demo-fascism.
Makes america look like insane killer nazis run the country,seems fair to say.

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What You Can Do
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 9, 2006 1:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I urge everyone to check this out:

http://www.worldcantwait.net/

Especially for everyone asking what they can do, here is something to move forward on.

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"George W Bush is a gruesome boob"
Posted by: Jeanne on Sep 10, 2006 7:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, apparently our troops fighting to protect our way of life, ie our rights guaranteed under the Bill of Rights, are also fighting for W's ability to try those individuals rendered by the CIA and now housed in Gitmo to be tried based on evidence gained under torture ("alternative interrogation techniques"), and without being able to know what "evidence" the government has. In other words, they will be tried and convicted (and executed?) with none of the rights that this country used to guarantee its citizens. And I use the past tense, because if we aren't willing to try these alleged criminals under the same guarantees of a fair and speedy trial that Americans supposedly have, what manner of "democracy" and "freedom" do we purport to be exporting throughout the world? I maintain that what is more likely to occur is the eroding of US citizens' rights to bring those rights in line with those rights (or lack of them) that these rendered prisoners enjoy. And, given the "pass" the US citizenry seems to have given W's government, do we deserve more?

There was a classic quote on "Real Time" last week: "George W Bush is a gruesome boob." -- Bill Maher.

This should be plastered on walls, roads, the front page of newspapers, magazine headers, and on the nightly news of every network. The world needs to know that he might be sitting in the Oval Office, but he's not really our leader.

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NEW WORLD ELECTION NOW
Posted by: EuSapiens on Sep 11, 2006 6:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Things have come to a point where everyone really has the duty to splash it on the wall. This is so because , as myself, many peolple around the world feel the "pressure" to comply - to say the least - their governments take from a country like the US. It is a fact that someone who runs for presidency knows he is also running for WORLD ADMINISTRATION (UUuh. sounds creepy!).But this game isn´t like Solitaire... it has many players. So, as a member of this "civilization" , i too have the right to protest about the choosing of the United states president. I would like to fire Mr Tony blair,Mr Aznar, Mr Durão Barroso (well,i mention this one because he split to an European Job right after hosting the war declaration on Iraq, leaving my country in a political circus - funny 2 years.. president dismissed the whole goverment) and some other "spokesmen of the people" , from Saudi Arabia to Angola, from their jobs. I would also like to say that i DO NOT authorize my country being used as a flight stop by Torture Airlines. And by the way, it is forbidden to torture someone and call it "defending your Rights" - i don´t need/want to have the Right to Torture... So, start plastering it on the walls : "NEW WORLD ELECTIONS NOW!!"

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Correct
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Sep 12, 2006 3:25 PM   
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Once again people on all sides see no shades of grey in this debate. Firstly, the definition of torture is vague. Thusly, it might be effective to 'isolate' individuals to gain information (or to prohibit sharing information) but putting electrodes on the genitals might not be. Secondly, every circumstance is different and every individual responds somewhat differently to a stimulus, likewise there are cultural differences. Most Americans consider no airconditioning or heat 'torture', yet the majority of the world lives like that. Thirdly, the idea of not-torturing and releasing detainees back into the population is often a good one since 1) you start the enemy thinking that you're not too bad 2) to don't get false/desperation information 3) you confuse the enemy to wonder if the guy released has been 'turned'. However, is the release of the individual to possible death or torture by the enemy considered 'torture' by proxy? After all a part of this strategy assumes that the enemy will no longer trust them and will likely interrogate the individuals themselves....

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When history is forgotten - and decency considered a weakness
Posted by: medbear on Sep 14, 2006 12:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the Bush administration gets what it wants, the Geneva Conventions will be what US and alliance soldiers should fear most in the future. This will be used for all it is worth by our opponents. A free pass to torture, and any condemnation from the West will be met with reference to this decision, if made.

See New York Times article

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