Home
Archive
Newsletters
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • AlterNetYour turn

Support AlterNet
Do you value the information you're getting from AlterNet? Please show your support with a tax-deductible donation.


Feedback
Tell us how we're doing.

Advertisement
Advertisement

The Clash of Civilizations Doesn't Exist... Yet

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted September 1, 2006.


The neocons who are pushing a Clash of Civilizations are mirror-images of the terrorists that inspire their hyperbolic fear -- they are just as irrational and just as great a threat to our security.
090206story
Don't Let the Neocons Call It a 'War on Terror'

Share and save this post:

      

      

Share on Facebook       

AlterNet Social Networks:
follow us on twitter
find us on Facebook

More stories by Joshua Holland

Advertisement
Upcoming AlterNet stories on Digg

"Seriousness" has become the word of the day for the Islamophobic set.

According to some of our more serious hawks, anyone who doesn't buy that the liberal democracies of the West are engaged in a death-match with hordes of dusky Muslim fanatics is "unserious" about America's security and can't be trusted.

It's the latest in a series of attempts to forestall any meaningful discussion of the causes of violent Islamist ideologies, much less how the United States should respond to them. It locks us into the global "war on terror."

Unfortunately, all too many otherwise sane people seem to accept the terms.

But it's hard to imagine anything more profoundly unserious than taking a dozen complex conflicts that originated in a dozen countries, stripping them of all historical and political context and lumping them together in an amorphous blob called the "Clash of Civilizations." But that's exactly what we're talking about.

So let's take them at their word for a moment and think seriously about the framework they use to understand a dangerous and confusing world.

Consider this: in the epic struggle between East and West, some of our staunchest allies are the undisputed champs in spreading violent Islamic extremism. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan established fundamentalist, anti-Western madrassas all across the world, funneled gobs of cash to extremist groups, and nurtured and supported them in their infancy. It wasn't just random individuals within those countries; Saudi Arabia made it a foreign policy priority to spread its brand of Wahhabism, mostly to counter the perceived threat of Pan-Arabism and other anti-colonial ideologies. Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI -- sometimes called a "state within a state" -- not only supported the Taliban in Afghanistan but funded, equipped and helped train some of the most notorious terror groups that grew out of that country in the 1990s. Talk all you want about Syria and Iran supporting Hezbollah, these are the great terror-sponsoring states, and they're on the side of the Western democracies.

What's more, the West isn't all that unified in this great existential struggle to save itself from destruction. A recent poll of citizens in the United Kingdom, our most loyal ally and a country that largely believes the Clash of Civilizations meme, found that -- "by a margin of more than five to one -- the public wants Tony Blair to split from President George W. Bush and either go it alone in the 'war on terror', or work more closely with Europe." Just 14 per cent believed "Britain should continue to align itself with America." A Pew Global Attitudes survey in June found that in Spain, supposedly a target of "Islamic Imperialism" and the victim of one of the most spectacular terror attacks ever, "four times as many people oppose the war on terror as support it (76 percent to 19 percent)."

Of course, the hawks' response is that there must be something wrong with the rest of the world. Outside of the United States, they argue, the West is "feminized," spineless and too "politically correct" to take on the Muslim hordes. That's like an ugly, unhygienic man's sincere belief that every woman who rejects his advances must be a lesbian. If there's a consensus among your closest friends that you're wrong about something, you probably are.

We're fortunate that most of the Clash of Civilizations rhetoric is obvious nonsense peddled by cynics playing to our latent xenophobia, rather than something inherently violent or nihilistic in Islam (it is violent, but no more than any other religion).

"Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims" is a common refrain on the many "war-blogs" that have proliferated since 9/11. That's wrong, and purely racist -- like saying all crack-heads are African-American. Last year, excluding the mess in Iraq (it's awfully tough to distinguish between terrorism, insurgency, sectarian violence, etc.), U.S. government statistics (PDF) show that the country with the most terror fatalities was India. Some were inflicted by Muslims, but more were perpetrated by secessionist groups from the Northern provinces, the Communist Party of India and various Hindu extremists. Next up was Colombia, a country with a population that's over 90 percent Roman Catholic. Following in fifth place -- after the mess in Afghanistan -- were the victims of secular Maoist terror groups in Nepal.


Digg!    Share on facebook   submit to reddit    Bookmark on Delicious   Stumble This  

Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.

Liked this story? Get top stories in your inbox each week from AlterNet! Sign up now »

Advertisement
Advertisement

 

Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Comments closed.
The comments for this story have been closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
View:
22 Impolite Questions for Prime Sinister Stephen Harper, American Idol
Posted by: dgiVista.org on Sep 2, 2006 12:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In Canada, with our American Idol Prime Minister Stephen Harper trying to embrace his inner Bushian Imperialist, I ask 22 Impolite Questions because someone needs to speak the truth:

am i a Canadian, a real Canadian, or a good Canadian?

am i a Canadian first and a human being second, or a human first and a Canadian second, or even lower in relation to me being a husband, father, teacher or poet?

is patriotism the last refuge of a scoundrel?

if i criticize Prime Sinister Harper, am i anti-Canada, anti-Canadian or against all ethnic groups that comprise Canada, thereby wishing upon us all a terrorist attack?

do i support Canadian troops if i call for their return from their imperial occupation of Afghanistan?

do i support Canadian troops if i call for them to not seek greater opportunity to take command of the Afghan occupation?

did the Canadian troops get together and work up a plan, and cost it out, and prepare for deaths and injuries and present it to Paul Martin and his government to convince him, it and the Canadian population that we should not declare war on the Taliban, yet invade and occupy Afghanistan, thereby meaning that if i don't support the mission, then i don't support the actual people in our military and their families?

is our military comprised of employees of the government, and by extension the citizenry, and committed to following the employer's orders?

am i supporting the troops if i call Prime Sinister Harper a rhetoric criminal by saying i don't support our troops if i don't agree with his imperial, American Idol designs?

do i support our troops if i wish them to come home from a country where we don't have sufficient personnel, money, equipment or civil will to continue fighting and defeating a fundamentalist Muslim Taliban in a failed state, in an alliance run by a de facto fundamentalist Christian theocracy comprised of corporate compradors with a penchant for stoking oil profits?

am i anti-Canadian, anti-troops, anti-America or anti-9/11 victims if i ask why there are fewer than 20,000 troops from NATO countries and friends of NATO countries trying to stop the Taliban, rebuild Afghanistan and find Emmanuel Goldstein, sorry, Osama bin Laden, while there are almost 7 times that number of just American troops keeping just enough anarchy in Iraq to foment a civil war?

am i cynical, anti-freedom, anti-democracy or a threat to our security and way of life if i even suggest that Osama bin Laden is our real-life version of Emmanuel Goldstein, a man better off at large than captured?

AM I THE ONLY NORTH AMERICAN WHO'S READ 1984?

am i anti-American if i criticize "President" Bush?

do the same questions about the rhetorical crime of supporting the troops apply equally well--or better--to the situation in the USA?

must i necessarily wish American soldiers to die if i don't support their "president", thereby not supporting the troops?

are Noam Chomsky and Phyllis Bennis anti-American if they criticize their imperial government?

and what about Israel?

am i anti-Semitic if i disagree with the domestic or foreign policy decisions of the de facto fundamentalist Jewish theocracy in Israel?

do i wish all Jews in the world dead because i don't agree with any given decision of the Israeli government?

are Noam Chomsky and Phyllis Bennis self-hating Jews if they oppose any given decision or set of decisions of the Israeli government or decisions of the US government that support Israeli policy they disagree with?

am i threatening national security by asking these questions?

are you?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» As a Canadian... Posted by: Mycos
» No! Posted by: WhatNow?
Leave the game of Russian roulette? Why, that would be sensible.
Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 2, 2006 1:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I found the argument here very convincing. I also found it very patiently and studiously argued. It’s a marvelous piece of work. Thank you. However, as its conclusion suggests, those who propose a clash of civilization are not interested in arguments, and probably least interested in the most carefully argued. Ever since 9/11 it has been a shouting match. Work like this, to turn the volume down to talking, is absolutely necessary.

But as with other excellent pieces of work analyzing contemporary affairs on AlterNet, all seem to be answering questions that people should be asking, but few are. Except on progressive blogs, I do not hear anyone asking, what does a war on terrorism mean? So long as our unresponsive representatives in the US Capitol say we have a war on terrorism, we have such a war, whatever it means. (In a similar fashion, who is asking what a war on drugs means? But billions continue to be allocated to the war on drugs.)

Our shrinking globe displays a growing confusion. I recently ran across the graphics offered by Foreign Policy magazine to illustrate their concept of “Failed Nations.” All the countries of the world are ranked with successive hues from gray (successful) to maroon (failed). Interested? Here.
We customarily refer to First World and Third World. Third World clearly comes in distinct varieties.

Mr. Holland, one thing drug addicts learn is that the fiercest combination is a habit and unlimited funds. Because oil has given Iran, for instance, a lot of ready cash (as was the case with Saddam), the combination of wealth and political ambition is a potential firestorm in our era of nuclear arsenals. You cannot find Islamic leadership that admires the US, but a lot have the wealth of oil.

Yes, we are co-existing with many nations who do not like us. Your plea for co-existence falls on deaf ears so long as the reality is a world armed to the teeth. Without disarmament leadership from the US, the whirlwind of conflict is an international game of Russian roulette. We are showing the world that we are willing to pull the trigger with the gun to our head. To call it foolish is to say nothing.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Not so fortunate
Posted by: talkville on Sep 2, 2006 1:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a great article! I couldn't agree more with Mr Holland as to the mirror-image quality of this 'culture war'. The work of Samuel Huntington was a rather large spark igniting this state of affairs together with the transfer of our discourse to the plane of 'values' - the will (or faith) rather than reason.

However, it seems to me that we're not all that fortunate:

"We're fortunate that most of the Clash of Civilizations rhetoric is obvious nonsense peddled by cynics playing to our latent xenophobia, rather than something inherently violent or nihilistic in Islam (it is violent, but no more than any other religion)."

The threads of the impulse to "own" Civilization as the one, the only and the best run deep through our human history. The Philosopher King, the Nobility, the 'sangre pura'; our current strain bases itself on religious feelings and systems - the 'values' debate.

The cynics and reactionaries of our own times are stoking truly worrisome embers that have accompanied us through much, if not all, of our human history. It doesn't seem entirely fortunate to be forced to engage with these forces whirling around us these days. It's deeper than just rhetoric, some of these people believe in and desire this 'war'.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Not so smart Posted by: bullwhip7
» RE: Not so smart Posted by: talkville
Another nice one, Josh. Now if only...
Posted by: HeroesAll on Sep 2, 2006 2:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...I could pound it into the heads of those idiots who continue to spout the party line. Maybe if I tattooed it across the foreheads of Bush, Blair, Rumsy, Cheney (not that he ever emerges from his lair), Howard, Downer, Rice, et al.

Naaah, couldn't do that. Not enough forehead space. Teeny crania, enough to contain teeny brains. It's a lovely thought, though.

I do find it odd that some people so willingly latch onto an 'explanation' which involves seeing the perpetrators as some sort of incomprehensible cartoon villain of pure eeevulllll. Why are they so resistant to the notion that terrorist atrocities are committed in response to what the perpetrators see as other atrocities, do you think? Is it because that would mean considering Them as just another kind of Us? Or because it would mean abandoning the fantasy of the US as innocent and wholly good?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Good point - it might just work Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Good point - it might just work..I didn't need.. Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
But why not put this demonization-motivation in perspective with other, past wars?
Posted by: rebel_pig on Sep 2, 2006 3:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why not get some historical public domain pictures, photos, etc, from Library of Congress, etc and show how in the past, the American gov't used similar tactics to demonize other "enemy" cultures such as during the Korean War, WW2, WW1, etc. You could then better persuade your readers and make longterm progress.

Or is it only SHORT TERM, Limited progress you seek? Is your goal just to replace one set of leaders (GOP) with another set (Democrats)? Or do you care about preventing FUTURE wars, which you might be able to do by showing how in the past the same sorts of tactics were used to demonize the opponent and scare the people to drum up support for OTHER WARS?

I notice that the Darfur-genocide advertisement is no longer running on the left side of alternet.org. Anyone else notice that ad this past week? That ad is part of a steady buildup of support for a NEW war, one that will start once the Democrats get into office. THe great pan-African Darfur war against genocide....ah, yes, the military industrial complex has LONG TERM planning. And you FakeLeft windup warriors are just another set of pawns on their board......

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Religious zealots and the greedy few
Posted by: greentime on Sep 2, 2006 5:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
have always been and still are responsible for most of the world's troubles.

The arrogance and blindness of their fear and the hatred they whip up in themselves is just supreme paranoia!

They fear so strongly because they know how violent THEY would be for their own cause. They are fearful because they cannot ever prove they are right about anything - it is belief, not fact; faith, not reason. To compensate for their insecurity they shout louder and get angrier and more threatening. Trust this though, they are afraid!

How else can thier stupid end games be explained??? Would any of their loving or peaceful gods act the way they do??? Nope! Can we even imagine Jesus invading Iraq? He'd be tripping over his robes and falling out of his sandals. Allah? Yayweh? Y'all way and my way just turn into get outa my way in the hands of these radical fools.

The idea that they would destroy all life rather than be found out or be "wrong" or simply not so sure is just the proof of their fear.

I encourage evreyone to walk away from them. Stop wasting your time in dialog with them. Look at them like they are crazed fools, which they are, and get busy doing something useful and generous.

If they continue to threaten, they will have to be corralled with the rest of the bulls.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Bin Laden won
Posted by: mat38 on Sep 2, 2006 5:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a decent article but I think it's conclusion missed the mark. There IS a clash of civilaizations. The majority of Arab peoples do not want KFC an McDonalds and western civilization to dominate their culture. Arabia is not going to suddenly turn over and become a captalist monster like China. On the other hand, Bush and his Neocons and Christian Crackpots want ntohing more than to destroy Islam, or at least to keep it from expanding because they damn well knw that Islam, as a religion and a way of life, is more dominant and correct than their phony evangelicalism for profit.
The Neocons/Zionists want Israel to be the regions unchecked superpower that can expand it's borders whenever it sees fit (Right to self-defence). But Israel will neve be more than a well funded (by the U.S.) piss ant terrorist state inflicting cruel terrorism on weaker states like Lebanon. Israel is a joke albeit not a fnny one.
It indeed is a clash of civilizations but it didn't have to be so. Bin Laden wanted to make the U.S. a shadow if its former self and we certainly are that. If Israel were to find peaceful solutions to Palestine and stop killing Palestinians and stop bombing Lebanon and flying its jets over Damascus, and if the U.S. would stop its homicdal occupation of Iraq, we could chart a new course. But, two more years of Bush is a long tim and there are many more people he must kill before he leaves office.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Bin Laden won Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: Bin Laden won Posted by: willymack
» RE: Bin Laden won Posted by: kelly.nickell
» RE: Bin Laden won Posted by: bullwhip7
» RE: Bin Laden won Posted by: mat38
» A Generalization at large Posted by: bullwhip7
Not Unlike the Culture Wars
Posted by: Urstrly on Sep 2, 2006 5:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading this excellent analysis, I was struck by the similarities between the way the right attacks Muslims and the way it has painted anyone who disagrees with them across the cultural divide. Love Jesus? You must vote Republican; liberal Christians and Jews are the anti-Christ. Support evolution? You can't possibly be a person of faith, otherwise you'd know the Earth was created in seven days, or at most 10,000 years. Support a woman's choice on abortion? Then you are acquiescing the first degree murder of the "unborn." Want to use stem cells to possibly save millions of lives? Ditto. Think gays and lesbians should have the same rights as everyone else? You're assaulting the sacred institution of heterosexual marriage.

What could be more irrational that six or 10 million Americans (I can't remember the exact figure) buying and delighting in all those Left Behind books that expand on some indecipherable text from Revelations that Jesus is going to come to Earth after a war that reunites Israel to take them all to Heaven while the rest of us burn forever?

And we say Muslims are hopelessly violent.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Clash of "Civilizations"?
Posted by: tkwilson on Sep 2, 2006 5:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see nothing civilized about the behaviour of any of the states involved. The notion that states will, for any length of time, continue to act in a "civilized" manner and not as the bullies they ultimately become, is as illusory as the notion that our "security" is anything other than an accident of circumstance (ie. nothing has blown up in my immediate vicinity lately).
The so called United States (the gang of elites who are steering the boat) wreaks the havoc it does on the world because it has the means to do so. It has the means because we as individual participants believe we have something to gain; jobs , homes, "security", etc., by participating in this state.
The only way I know of for sure to end the carnage is if the people stop supporting and participating in the state, and do whatever is neccessary to dismantle its machinery.
As far as I can tell, most are too stupid and fearful to see, that it is not the state that is to blame (or the elites), but we ourselves who make our own, and the rest of the worlds, slavery, possible.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

12 CHARACTERISTICS OF FASCISM
Posted by: wawa on Sep 2, 2006 6:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, Islamic fascists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.


10. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

11. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

12. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.



Courtesy of
http://www.libertyforum.org

public service message from
.org
wearewideawake

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: 12 CHARACTERISTICS OF FASCISM Posted by: dgiVista.org
Know thy origins!
Posted by: redstarwraith on Sep 2, 2006 6:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems the phrase, "clash of civilizations" has become so much a part of the American vernacular that even good writers like Mr. Holland don't recognize the origins. No mention of Samuel Huntington? Astonishing. He's the dipshhit, hawk, pseudo-intellectual that coined the friggin term! Of course after which you had every tin-plated saber-rattler in this country pick up on it (Zbigniew Brezinski anyone?). But if you really want to know where the "genius" of Huntington comes from, check out the Nazi German intellectual, Carl Scmitt (Scmidt?) -- Huntington is just a chip off the old Nazi.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Know thy origins! Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Avoid Demogoguery Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Know thy origins! Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: Plagiarized from Bernard Lewis????? Posted by: SatanicJamboree
Neocons and liberal democracy??????
Posted by: bookwoman on Sep 2, 2006 6:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not sure the words Neocon and liberal democracy belong on the same planet let alone in the same sentence. The neocons and hawks in the current Administration have proved, over the past five years, that they don't "get" liberal democracy. Even parts of our own elections in the U.S. are under a shadow as questions emerge about manipulations of this process by these people.

At any rate, extremists and idealogues from both ends of the continuum are totally unable to get their minds around any other viewpoint so what was your question?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Funny how much of this "clash" has to happen in THEIR homelands.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Sep 2, 2006 6:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Funny how the reason many of "them" give is that we were there in the first place.

They are simply carrying out the same old colonialist conflict they started with the crusades.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» It's all about the Crusades Posted by: bullwhip7
The Wahabis and the ISIS
Posted by: daw13 on Sep 2, 2006 7:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
were trained and financed by the CIA, according to a prize winning Swiss Journalist. Google Dollars for Terror by Richard LeBeviere.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

great essay Joshua, however...
Posted by: scott balogh on Sep 2, 2006 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the jingoistic propaganda machine which works for the military industrial complex, is what the great majority of our usa citizens hear, watch, read and especially believe. The few who are curious enough to investigate deeply and report on it are not believed or understood and are labeled cracked pots or tools of the enemy. Can we declare a war on ignorance? I think the biggest challenge we face is how to implement a democracy in the usa. Do you understand what i am trying to say? Sometimes i feel the only way out of this mess is to violently revolt. We need to strip the power/wealth from those who posess it. Can we talk about the essence of politics, the struggle between the haves and the have nots, instead of issues like marriage, abortions and flag burning? Joshua Holland for president!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

The only "Clash. . .
Posted by: monkeywrench on Sep 2, 2006 8:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
. . .of Civilizations" is between the Bush administration and rational human beings.

If the Bush administration wants to prove that a "Clash of Civilizations" truly exists between the West and the Muslim world, they should run a little experiment: stop trying to control countries in the Middle East by military force and get out, ensure that Arabs and Palestinians are treated like human beings, and stop raping Middle East economies for their oil. My guess is that if these changes were made, the "Clash" would calm down considerably. Bin Laden himself has said that he wants the West to stop stomping around in holy places there and just leave. Some "Clash." Don't get me wrong; I know there are some real crazies and bad guys over there, but they would be marginalized, just like ours are marginalized in a more equitable social system (with the possible exception of Washington D.C.)

The "Clash" argument trotted out by the Bush whackos is designed – once again – to keep us afraid. They have to keep stoking that fire because their previous reasons for us to be fearful tend to be found out as lies and exaggerations. When they finally run out of Earth-bound ways to raise the fear factor, what will be next? Possible invasion by the Klingon Empire? Or, more likely, another horrendous "attack?" Stand by.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» A clash of Truth and Reality Posted by: bullwhip7
» Raw nerve got hit here Posted by: bullwhip7
» Harris Posted by: Ouelle
Osama
Posted by: Lauren on Sep 2, 2006 8:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He wanted to unite the Middle East and bog the US down in Iraq, possibly goad us into a war in Iran too. Plus, shake up the American people so they would finally take notice of (and responsability for) the harm their government is doing to the world.

How has Osama failed?

'Cut and run' was his idea too. Very effective, works like a charm. I find it disheartening that the fools running our government were so easily led by a clever enemy into this idealogically blind, boxed in canyon. I wouldn't mind the idealogical blindness and ignorance so much if it wern't for the war mongering and profiteering, that is just unacceptable.

'Stay the course' is just lame. The 'course' was suggested by Osama Bid-Laden, works just great for him and does nothing to further our national cause. It is really stupid for us to 'stay the course'.

But Bush won't leave the Iraqi boxed canyon kill zone until he "finishes the job". Bullies are like that, stubborn. Osama was just smart enough to recognize and take clever advantage of the situation. In this case 'finishing the job' means nothing but war and more war. War without end or any thought of the huge costs, a 1984 kind of war.

With a strategy like that, the only 'job' that will ever get finished will be the destruction of our national strenth and power. Something, I am sad to say, seems to be the great goal (and achievement) of this administration.

To those who say supporting the millitary is, and must be, morally and intellectually equal to supporting war, I say our millitary strenth is greatest when it a threat, not an act. Osama understood this (and very effectively used us to weaken ourselves). I wish our leaders were so clever.

This administration is making us less safe by squandering our reputation, uselessly wasting our millitary strenth, and by incompentently defending our nations interests at the negotiating tables. A disgrace.

We would ba a stronger country if we pulled out of Iraq and made friends with the Islamic nations. I see no reason why we can not do this, but I also have NO confidence in our present administration's ability to succeed; in that task or any other.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

New direction
Posted by: Lauren on Sep 2, 2006 8:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you are interested in the success of alternative politics, you might check out this effort (link below). I have high hopes for us actually taking back our country. There is a line, there is a formula.

http://myspace.com/myspace_vote2006_army

I heard yesterday the Republicans are intending to defend their candidates in only a few races. What, to save money? I find it hard to believe, expect dirty tricks. The potential of this election is pretty exciting. Don't you think?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: New direction Posted by: robmikejas
» New direction Or Dirty Tricks? Posted by: Christie
A Different Clash...
Posted by: aussidawg on Sep 2, 2006 9:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rather than the battles we are now being forced by our "leaders" to fight, I suggest a different "clash." The population of the world's workers against the fasciest elite, ie. a NEW FRENCH REVOLUTION, with one difference...a worldwide revolution against those who parasitically live off the labors of the majority of the population. Let these vermin fight for their own skin for a change.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: A Different Clash... Posted by: Joe the Poe
a fanatic is a fanatic
Posted by: edith on Sep 2, 2006 1:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by definition, an Islamist extremist is an Islamist extremist.
If you are a Christian, Jew, Communist or existentialist, I don't think you can be part of Al Queda. sorry Joshua. See your civil rights lawyer.

Ask the Algerian secular and socialist forces if there are Islamic extremists or even fascists: over half a million Algerians, many innocent citizens, testify that these nutcases exist and they kill. Does that justify US intervention in Muslim nations? NO. Secular and reasonalbe Muslims have a larger stake in ending the power of the fanatics than the US. They either will or won't. More Iraqs will only create more fanatics.

The clash of civilizations also includes the Orthodox-secular split in Judaism and the fundementalist versus mainstream split in Christianity.

Holland equates Islamist opponents as extreme as the Islamists. But one is not an extremist to drive on Saturday, eat pork, display the human body in art, or never pray. Extremists do attack secularists who try to satirize or comment on intolerance(the Van Gogh murder in Netherlands.)

Nations like Britain and the US will have to apply civil rights laws and perhaps prosecutions against these Islamic versions of the KKK at some point when these extremists try to control what the secular majority does. It galls me to see the Islamists wrap the freedom of religiion of the West around their robes so they can work in an affluent society but then try to attack the civil liberties that flourish in the West that are denied in practically every nation controlled by Islamic governments. There is an inherent problem in Islam with tolerance. While the answer is not the neocon preferred military retaliation, we secularists nevertheless cannot stay silent in an unappreciated effort to be "PC".

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: a fanatic is a fanatic Posted by: HeroesAll
When we seek to dominate the world, we need a war.
Posted by: Bic Pentameter on Sep 2, 2006 3:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Global free trade is basically a euphemism for global exploitation of the impoverished. We fully intend to have the lion's share of a soon-to-be inadequate supply of petroleum-based energy and we intend to sustain our growth-based economy as long as we can - at least beyond the lifespan of today's biggest beneficiaries.

We will sustain economic growth in order to assure the support of the american public, and we will happily consume the fruits of indentured labor, as long as the exploited are in some far away country. As the real value of the dollar declines, costs of production must be pared to the bone so that we can continue to buy consumer goods at low prices. Most of the world's population will be indentured to the feeding of our appetites for the simple reason that the earth cannot provide for us all in the manner to which affluent peoples are accustomed. When we tout democracy and free trade to the rest of the world we do not think for a moment that everyone could live like we do. We do not sincerely invite them to join the modern affluent world, just to labor for us.

Consider the Jordanian Free Trade Agreement of 1999. Jordanian sweat shop owners don't hire locals and pay them well because there are no strings attached which would require decent treatment of workers. They are perfectly free - and willing - to lure workers from far away lands with promises of good jobs. They 'loan' them the price of travel and ask for their passports as collateral. They are forced to work long hours in abominable conditions and cannot escape. They are beaten if they object and imprisoned if they try to organize or escape. Collecting pay is an exercise in futility and frustration. Conditions for Chinese gem-stone polishers are equally dire, but different in nature.

We fully expect objections from many directions and must be prepared to keep the rest of the world in line. Our first scapegoat is the Muslim community from which objections are already loudly voiced. By the time push really comes to shove, we will have convinced the American people that these are our bitter enemies, and must be destroyed. The war on terror won't end soon, because it's really a war to subjugate other economies to our will.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» it's worse than you think Posted by: edith
» RE: it's worse than you think Posted by: Bic Pentameter
What would Thomas Friedman say?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Sep 2, 2006 4:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great article!

It does seems that the rest of the world actually likes the notion of Indepedence that was put forward in 1776 as justification for armed rebellion against British rule of the "American Colonies". No doubt King George called the rebellion "the work of terrorists and traitors" as well (the 1776 King George, to clarify).

Thomas Friedman the Elder would no doubt have claimed that globalization was really in the colonies best interests, if they would only see it, and he would likely have proposed putting all supporters of the rebellion on a "list of traitors". Then he'd have written a book called "The Lord's Manor and the Tobacco Plant" all about how trade between the colonies and Britain was the only thing that kept the foul Americans from sinking into a pit of bestiality and despair...

Yes, Osama bin Ladin seems like a pretty psychotic character - kind of like Saddam in Iraq, Karimov in Uzbekistan, the Shah in Iran, the House of Saud in Arabia - now, what do all these characters have in common - yup, they eith were or are "great allies" of the United States (bin Ladin was one of the on-the-ground mujahadeen in Afghanistan, fighting the Soviets while being supported by the CIA and the Pakistani ISI, and lauded by Ronald Reagan as a 'freedom fighter' - see Rambo 3 and the Theater of Good and Evil for more details)

Free Trade! Free Markets! Globalization! blah, blah, blah - Friedman, you are a ranking idiot. Please, tell us how the 'production sharing agreements' between the oil companies and their puppets in the Iraqi oil ministry are really going to be in the best interests of the Iraqi people (who, despite having the world's biggest oil reserves, still don't have reliable electricity or fuel supplies).

We need to get out of Iraq and yes, that means that we won't control the oil supply - and so we'll have to pay a fair market price for Iraqi oil, just like the British were eventually forced to pay a fair market price for American tobacco and hemp.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

WOLVES v SHEEP
Posted by: Hal on Sep 2, 2006 7:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“The truth is that we're threatened by a number of lethal organized crime networks…We fight organized crime with law enforcement and intelligence, and have done so for a long time, with notable success…But the danger of a Clash of Civilizations developing is there. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy: If we keep saying we have one on our hands and keep acting on it, we will effectively create some kind of long-term, massive historical enemy from whole cloth. It's already happened to a degree…”

The truth? I think not…

Holland’s piece is rather skin-deep on the “terror” front.

The biggest of “organized crime networks” is the one in charge of a DC-MSM puppet show through monopolist orgs a la the “Federal Reserve” Corporation (not “federal” with no “reserves) which employs a CIA that has overthrown at least 20 democracies worldwide since WW2 at the cost of millions of lives thru genocide, death squad and torture for cartel cashbox profits.

Saddam was foisted into power by the CIA and British in just this fashion from 1959 on to butcher a million of his own people in trade for Iraq Petroleum Co. (Saddam was only cut when suckered to take Kuwait and betrayed for Gulf War I).

Then there’s also the fact other “organized crime networks” such as al-Qaeda were virtually created by the CIA and funded from the ultra-corrupt House of Saud (Saudi Arabia) to the tune of over half a billions dollars. Ditto for the Muslim Brotherhood. That’s a House of Saud in bed with every crooked political snake in the west from DC to 10 Downing.

If the west hadn’t invented al-Qaeda as an “enemy”, it would have invented another. But now we’re busy creating real enemies. A rather easy task for a conqueror that invades lands under cover of lies to battle Islamic culture informed by a fanatic warlord.

But a clash of civilizations is a red herring and dodges the truth.

The real serial clash is of wolves and sheep. A war of those that own and rig a worldwide system against good little sheep that have less than no clue.

No need to guess at who wins that contest.

"THE REAL TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS, AS YOU AND I KNOW, THAT A FINANCIAL ELEMENT IN THE LARGER CENTERS HAS OWNED THE GOVERNMENT EVER SINCE THE DAYS OF ANDREW JACKSON.”
PRESIDENT FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT (describing oligarch rule in a letter to handler “Colonel” Edward M. House, confidence man for the cartel and founder of the Council on Foreign Relations. House also handled President Wilson and the creation of a private “Federal Reserve” Corporation and its IRS in 1913. FDR speaks of monopolists at cartel centers of New York & London that own the U.S. Government. November 21st, l933)

“THE RULING CLASS HAS THE SCHOOLS AND PRESS UNDER ITS THUMB. THIS ENABLES IT TO SWAY THE EMOTIONS OF THE MASSES.”
DOCTOR ALBERT EINSTEIN (Nobel Laureate and refugee from Nazi fascism. 1879-1955)

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: WOLVES v SHEEP Posted by: xi_people
It's Corporate Elite or Religious Elite
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 2, 2006 7:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What "Clash of Civiliazations?" First of all, Bush is an unelected tyrant who has more in common with a rogue state dictator then any freely elected representative of the people. Everyone knows the fraud committed in Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 to swing the election. The only difference really now is if a dictator supports the corporate elite or wants a religious elite instead. Hence, the big US conflict with states like Iran and Syria. But, the US does support Saudi Arabia because this repressive regime supports the corporate elite - the Saudis care only about money coming in and keeping it coming in. What Iran wants to do, heaven forbid, is construct its own elite that won't bow to corporations and US dollar rule. Venezuela is another example, but even worse for the USA, Chavez is freely elected (unlike Bush) and on top of that, wants to return the wealth directly to the people. For the corporate elite, a mortal sin and Chavez is living in fear.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Self Attack
Posted by: vkobaya on Sep 2, 2006 7:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another point is the question of the real motivations of the Neocons and Bush administration in promoting this theory of fundamental conflict between our cultures. Partly, it is bigotry, but I see other components motivating their wanting to see World War III between the Western (European and English) and Islamic worlds. Bush, craves power, unlimited power as an unquestioned war leader, admired, conquering war hero, warrior and brave soldier. Julius Caesar probably did not intend to crown himself, but my guess is Bush intends to be absolute, hereditary lifetime ruler of this nation. The Neocons also see that they have a right to the Middle Eastern wealth, oil by virtue of their superiority over the inferior dark races of the Middle East. Western Europe outside of Tony Blair’s England does not support Bush, not because they aren’t racist, but correctly perceive that Bush and company excludes them from benefitting from this agenda of American, white, Christian supremacy and imperialism.

Also skips over that we have our own home grown terrorists, the Buford Furrows, the Texas idiots who dragged a Black man to his death and, of course, most prominent, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. There is also the alliance in philosophy between these idiots, the Neocons and the Bush administration, all seeking the same goal, ascendency of the elistist, American, white, fundy-Christians. Tony Blair is an idiot if he thinks the Oval Office carny man sees him as other than a gull, sucker, con, mark, pigeon and, in the end, another N----.

There is also something ironic in this. Bush, the eternal, congenital liar, who often states the opposite of the truth, said after 9/11, "They hate us for our freedoms." One of the opposites is to reverse who "they" is. No, it isn’t the Muslims, but rather the Bush gang, who hates American freedom and wants to subjugate us, eliminate the Constitution, Bill of Rights, free elections and of course, free speech. He would have us all as his perpetual surfs and slaves, with no rights, subject only to his absolute will. Bush is the enemy who hates America and wants to destroy the achievements of this nation and Western civilization, to grind it under his despotic heel. Fratboy punk wants revenge for being humiliated as a failure all his life in school and as a businessman.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Clash of civilizations
Posted by: Linette on Sep 3, 2006 6:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The clash of civilizations would be over if we could get all of the idiots in Washington to read this article. Finally, I can see what would do it.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Idiotic Article - more trash Posted by: bullwhip7
» Idiotic Comment Posted by: Linette
» Idiotic Comment Indeed Posted by: bullwhip7
» RE: Idiotic Comment Indeed Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» More Mindless ilogical banter Posted by: bullwhip7
neocons ultimately compete for privilege to oppress
Posted by: rtdrury on Sep 3, 2006 12:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Holland is correct. The neocons hatch from the same eggs as the Islamic fundamentalists, and they clash in their bids to oppress the people. The people submit only because they are ignorant of ways to deal properly with authority. Of course the people prefer a benevolent authority but they take what they get due mainly to ignorance and partly to apathy. The people are caught in a downward spiral in this respect, since the oppressors' primary activity once authority is achieved is to maintain the people's entrapment, i.e. cultivate their ignorance/apathy.

Every war is fought on two fronts - against the enemy who competes for an opportunity to oppress the people, and against the people themselves through oppression. The people inevitably choose the perceived least worst competing oppressor.

In the neocons' secret debates over invading Iraq the question was will the Iraqis choose to keep Saddam as their oppressor or will they choose Washington to be their new less oppressive oppressor. The neocons think that reality is shaped by their pronouncements so they pronounced themselves the least worst oppressor and hoped everyone would submit to the new reality.

The best defense for the people in the class war is to start building your own self-sufficiency and self-determination. Stop swallowing the propaganda of and giving away your consent to self-proclaimed authorities. There's a very clear line in the sand that we draw for public servants and anyone in any position of power: The people maintain the authority and the public servants must submit. When they cross that line, the people have to put them down. It's very simple. This is the class war - the mother of all wars. Victory for the people in the class war eliminates all skulduggery of all types and scales. Ready to start defending yourselves?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

I really like this article
Posted by: owleyes on Sep 3, 2006 7:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is really smart. It deconstructs the most pernicious lies that circulate in current discourse. It counters rhetoric with facts. And it connects the money dots, not with idle speculation, but with hard evidence. I really enjoyed reading it and will refer to it again.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: I really like this article Posted by: Joe the Poe
Do We REALLY LOVE Our Constitution?
Posted by: getonid on Sep 3, 2006 10:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hope that I can word this somewhat close to the way I feel. Please bear with me:

If, in FACT, we know that our goverment has been involved in the murder of our fellow-citizens, AND...

If, in FACT, we know that there are Neo-Conservatives and Neo-Facists in our goverment aligned with mega-banks and mega-cooporations (including the "media") whose purpose is to build a "New World Order" (WHICH IS AGAINST OUR CONSTITUTION), AND...

If, in FACT, we know that the Federal Reserve Banks are an unconstitutional authority created to take control of OUR money (not to mention, to print money), And...

If, in FACT, we know that the IRS has used intimidation, coercion, and outright lies to imprison, posses, and simply take citizens lives, earnings and property, ALL DONE UNCONSTITUTIONALLY, AND...

If,in fact we know that the American Constitution is THE PRIDE OF AMERICA, THEN...

my question is,

WHERE DO WE BEGIN TO ADDRESS THE LOVE AND DEFENCE OF OUR CONSTITUTION?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

It's not racism
Posted by: Grayfred on Sep 4, 2006 9:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In this thoughtful and informative essay Joshua Holland makes a mistake that I think should be corrected. He writes, "'Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims' is a common refrain on the many 'war-blogs' that have proliferated since 9/11. That's wrong, and purely racist -- like saying all crack-heads are African-American."
The assertion that "all terrorists are Muslims" is not an assertion about race. It's an assertion about people who share a religion. So it's not a racist statement at all. Of course, it's also untrue to say that "all terrorists are Muslims." History, including current times, is filled with terrorists who are not Muslim.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: It's Racism Posted by: eyeman
» Dumb Americans Posted by: Ouelle
» Style edits Posted by: Joshua Holland
Useful, but one point missing - Zionism.
Posted by: M. Junaid on Sep 4, 2006 10:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A cogent piece, but one aspect is missing. There is a flip-side to the rabid anti-Muslim sentiment, and that is ultra-Semitic sentiment. That is to say, while it's fashionable to slam all Arabs and Muslims for the acts of a few individual terrorists, and those who refuse to participate in the spectacle are derided for "political correctness," quite the opposite is true when it comes to Israel and fundamentalist Jews, whom we're not allowed to call out and expose when they advocate systematic state terror, lest we be labelled "anti-Semites."

I think that problem is evidenced in this piece because it doesn't point out that those peddling the Clash thesis in the intellectual arena are overwhelmingly Jewish right-wingers, ie., Zionists. In "Christian" America the majority of writers and columnists peddling the Clash thesis are right-wing Jews allied with Israel, followed closely by right-wing Christian Zionists. And there is a clear reason why Zionist thinkers are at the forefront of promoting anti-Muslim bigotry in the US: advancing and playing up Israel's "valuable" position in fighting off the Arab-Islamic hordes.

Consider this: if the Arabs and Muslims aren't a big threat to America, then why would America need Israel to help beat up on them? Indeed, Israel would be seen as a liability, a militant state of six million people ticking off 300 million potential friends. Israel would lose its strategic value, its financing, free weapons, political support from America, and would be forced to reap what it has sowed in the Middle East or end its racist activities against Palestinians.

Leading Zionist thinkers have not only considered but written about this element for a long time. (read Herzl, Jabotinsky, Dayan) That is why Zionists are at the forefront of anti-Muslim racism and in advocating war against Muslim countries.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Question Posted by: eyeman
» RE: Question Posted by: M. Junaid
» werewolf is anti-pro-zionists Posted by: bullwhip7
» Ouelle, you missed your nap Posted by: bullwhip7
A can with a pretty label on the outside and Botulism on the inside.
Posted by: Joe the Poe on Sep 5, 2006 1:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article does little more than attempt to pin the blame for facist dictators on the primary group trying to fix the problem. As for the theory that our policies are spurring on attacks from the near east? Total garbage. Oligarchs have always used the west as a scapegoat to cover their personal grabs for power.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Time for Confucius
Posted by: veive on Sep 6, 2006 5:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Confucius say, "Outsider who gets in middle of other persons' fight often comes out looking far worse than the fighters.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]