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In the Heart of America's Love Affair with Firepower

By David Holthouse, SPLC Intelligence Report. Posted August 19, 2006.


The Knob Creek machine gun shoot in Kentucky attracts thousands of neo-Nazis and other extremists. But the orgy of firepower helps everyone get along just fine.
ir122bigbang200
firepower

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Wearing orange foam earplugs to muffle the nearby thunder of relentless automatic weapons fire, a grizzled man with SS lightning bolt tattoos on his forearms pulls a little red wagon loaded with rifle ammunition. Carefully picking his way through the teeming crowd, he passes table after table laden with machine guns, gas masks, combat knives, war memorabilia and bomb-making guides. The man sheds his camouflage tactical vest to reveal a worn black T-shirt emblazoned with a Totenkopf, the Death's Head symbol of the Waffen SS. Then he parks his wagon to join a huddle of shoppers surrounding a hard-faced spokeswoman from Valkyrie Arms who's extolling the virtues of the Olympia, Wash.-based arms maker's new product, the Valkyrior 556 Rotary Gun.

"It's .223-caliber, six barrels, basically you're looking at a hand-cranked mini-gun," she says.

The man asks, "What's the rate of fire?"

"Just as fast as you can crank it," she replies. "We just shipped a load of these babies to civilian security contractors in Iraq for convoy protection. When I go to sleep tonight, I'll dream of towel heads splattering all over the place."

"We need to ship a few to the border and start splattering Mexicans," he says.

Then he picks up his wagon handle and continues browsing the wares. Two hundred yards away, around the Knob Creek Gun Range's lower shooting area, hundreds of men, women and children are lined up like kids at Disneyland to rent and shoot M-16s, Uzis, AK-47s, SPAS 12 full-auto shotguns, vintage Tommy Guns and Heckler & Koch MP-5s. A teenaged boy wearing a shirt with a grinning Jane Fonda and the words "Commie Traitor Bitch" pays $25 to rip 20 bullets through a .30-06 caliber BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle). "Man," he says, grinning and shaking the BAR owner's hand. "That's one hell of a rush."

'Go Hot!'

At a former naval proving ground near Fort Knox, the hills are alive with the sound of gunfire, as the semi-annual Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot gets under way. Billed as "the nation's largest machine gun shoot and military gun show," the Knob Creek festival, which takes place every April and October, is a frenzied exhibition of firepower to rival a bad day in Mogadishu. On the upper range, which is reserved for heavy weaponry, the rental guns include a belt-fed M-60 ($40 for 50 rounds, $75 for 100), a 1917 British-made Vickers Mark 1, and a Civil War-era Gatling gun. The main attraction, though, is a six-barrel M134 Minigun, which is powered by a General Electric motor and sends 4,000 rounds of hot lead per minute downrange. Retail price: roughly $225,000.

Every half hour or so, the upper range master declares a cease-fire. Festival workers remove the smoldering wreckage of junker cars and household appliances and then freshen up the supply of targets. During these breaks, a flamethrower operator suits up rental customers in silver stunt man suits and lets 'em rip for $195 per tank. Nearby, the crew of a privately owned field artillery gun pumps huge shells into a denuded hillside, drawing cheers from the bleachers. The concussive force of the explosions trigger hundreds of car alarms inside the vehicles lining both sides of a rural highway half a mile away, up a muddy hill and across a creek from the Knob Creek Gun Range entrance. The whoops and buzzes of the alarms are nearly drowned out by the dragon's roar of the flamethrower, and then sonically obliterated by dozens of machine guns that erupt when the upper range master announces, "Go hot!"

'R-2'

The Knob Creek shoot started in 1979 as a local event, but now attracts machine gun enthusiasts from across the county. Attendance tops 10,000. Throughout the 1990s, it was a major gathering point and recruiting ground for antigovernment, paramilitary militias. They held meetings in the festival campground and leadership summits at hotels in nearby Shephardsville. In April 1998, a dust-up between leaders of the U.S. Theater Command and the Southeastern States Alliance at a militia unity conference during the Knob Creek shoot caused a lasting split that weakened the movement.

Knob Creek organizers have for years insisted that the majority of people who come to their machine gun festivals are not white supremacists or militia members. While that's probably true, a survey of tattoos, patches, T-shirt symbols, and merchandise at the April 2006 events provided strong evidence of a significant extremist presence. Sonny Landham, the 1980s action movie star who now shills for the white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens, signed autographs and distributed CCC literature at his booth near a hot-dog stand. Print and CD editions of the racist fantasy novel The Turner Diaries were widely available, along with copies of the U.S. Militiaman's Handbook, a guide to armed insurrection during "R-2," the second American Revolution.


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View:
created
Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 19, 2006 12:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look what the Bushies have created: thousands of completely bonkers super-weapons nut cases.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: created Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle
» RE: created Posted by: cordas
» RE: created Posted by: itchyvet
» Never Thought I'd Almost Agree... Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: AMEN BROTHER!!!!! Posted by: Againstthewindwalking
» Not just Bush Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: created Posted by: Ktflake
» RE: created Posted by: Dean Cascio
» RE: created Posted by: bornxeyed
» Killed for half an inch Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Killed for half an inch Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Killed for half an inch Posted by: YogiBear
» correction--- Posted by: bornxeyed
The Right to Bear Arms
Posted by: christininrome on Aug 19, 2006 3:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That we still hold this as an inalienable right in 2006 is incomprehensible to me. That people actually enjoy rocketing weapons for sport-with big bullets-whose original intention can only have been killing another life, is scary. "...the right of people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" was an understandable amendment in 1787, when arms on the open prairie were helpful in protecting oneself for fear of... a raid or... bear attack (I guess).

But now, most civil countries in the world watch with astonishment and stupefied disappointment as US citizens are permitted to fumble their ways to Wal Marts and gun shows to actually purchase and carry these ridiculous murdering machines.

Their is so much beauty in the world. Why do we continue to destroy it?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» You left out a few hands Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: You left out a few hands Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: You left out a few hands Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: You left out a few hands Posted by: christininrome
» How about James Madison? Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The Right to Bear Arms Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» The Right to Arm Bears Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The Right to Arm Bears Posted by: christininrome
» RE: The Right to Arm Bears Posted by: christininrome
» RE: The Right to Arm Bears Posted by: surfreality
» RE: The Right to Arm Bears Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The Right to Arm Bears Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: The Right to Arm Bears Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: The Right to Bear Arms Posted by: Dean Cascio
» RE: The Right to Bear Arms Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: The Right to Bear Arms Posted by: drmiller
» RE: The Right to Bear Arms Posted by: bornxeyed
» Paid to blog? Posted by: YogiBear
I have a gut feeling
Posted by: Lizmv on Aug 19, 2006 3:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That we will never win these people over with a message of peace, love and understanding.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: I have a gut feeling Posted by: Asses of Evil
Phsycotic gun illness
Posted by: itchyvet on Aug 19, 2006 3:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe, that within the above article, if one looks real close, you'll find the sickness that infects American citizens.
There is NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WHOLE FLAMIN WORLD, that can be compared to the phsycotic illness prevailing in America today.
If Americans are unable to see this for what it is, maybe it would be to the best, to nuke the place, like some cancerous growth, take it out, to save the rest of the World.

It's funny, how they rave on about their sacred sacrosanct constitution, especially after Bushes remarks, 'IT'S JUST A PIECE OF PAPER FOR CHRIST'S SAKE".
And there's a hell of a difference with a 308 for self deffence and a six barrelled gatling gun.
Get a grip people.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Phsycotic gun illness Posted by: Redviper
» RE: Phsycotic gun illness Posted by: Dean Cascio
» RE: Phsycotic gun illness Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Phsycotic gun illness Posted by: YogiBear
I can ill you for your looks and walk free in fifteen states
Posted by: marklar on Aug 19, 2006 3:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In fifteen states (most Southern Christian cracker poorly edcucated strongholds) it's legal to shoot and kill someone who threatens your property. One has to wonder how long it will take for a perosn to get killed for looking like he/she was threatening someones property. Sort of like, I could pre-emptively kill a guy because the guy was staring at my house and I felt threatened.
This is Christian American at your service.

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» Not in Texas.... Posted by: sirossisofliver
» Mea Culpa Posted by: sirossisofliver
» RE: Not in Texas.... Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Not in Texas.... Posted by: bornxeyed
» Maybe he's a Beastie Boys fan. Posted by: YogiBear
» Beastie Boys uck. Posted by: YogiBear
» I'd be dead were it not for mine... Posted by: sirossisofliver
» RE: Gun Saves Life, read all about it Posted by: sirossisofliver
» How about some evidence? Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: How about some evidence? Posted by: marklar
» RE: How about some evidence? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: How about some evidence? Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: How about some evidence? Posted by: albrechtkrausse
It's the NeoNazi gun nuts that are the enemy of the Left, not the rich and powerful
Posted by: rebel_pig on Aug 19, 2006 4:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
just keep saying that, just keep saying that....that is what the rich people and corporations want. They want a Fake Left that attacks the white lower middle class and pushes them away from Leftism.

Who funded and originally set up the nonprofit organizations that pay to write and disseminate these sorts of articles? The upper class. Did and do they fund articles that talk about how the healthcare system of America is inferior to that of Europe? No

Did and do they fund articles that talk about how the regressive taxation system of America is inferior to the progressive taxations system of Europe? No.

They fund articles that tend to create a political split--articles on race and gender. Articles that set up the largest segment of Americans (white lower middle class (who also are typically gun owners) as the enemy of the Left.

It is a fake left that they have created with their nonprofit propaganda. There are never be a real left in America until the largest group in America is brought back into the fold. And articles like this one are part of the Fakeleft of the upper class that ensure that the white lower middle class can never be brought back into the fold.

Just keep watching the articles that run on this site and others like it. Divide and conquer has always been their game. They are the mirror images of the talk radio, Limbaugh, et al.

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» RE: Cry O Fan rides again!!!!!! Posted by: Againstthewindwalking
Excuse Me For Butting In Here
Posted by: R.I.P. on Aug 19, 2006 5:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was just wondering if Knob Creek is in the Homeland Security Nation Asset Database along with Old Mac Donald's Petting Zoo?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

I'm inclined to think...
Posted by: Nigelthebriton on Aug 19, 2006 5:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that the people in Baghdad are inclined to view the enemy differently from these machine gun toting cretins. One of the hazards of life in Baghdad as a US Army soldier, according to what I've read is a sniper called 'Juba' who doesn't kill with a rain of hot bullets, but with just one. And he never misses.

Have the US Army found him and taken him out yet?

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» No they haven't........... Posted by: Prophit
» RE: No they haven't........... Posted by: willymack
» Juba's role model... Posted by: Nigelthebriton
» RE: Juba's role model... Posted by: ixion
» Hmm Posted by: Allison
» RE: I'm inclined to think... Posted by: coalbanks
the constitution promises us...
Posted by: ellie on Aug 19, 2006 5:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the right to bear arms. I am far left of center and a raging constitutionalist, but do enjoy a fine gun. if this festival keeps folks happy, leave them alone to vent. actually, all that firepower aimed at old appliances and junk cars seems fun!

I am very urban, my family is non-white, but have lived in appalacia for years too and even if many of my former neighbors were a little, ah, gun happy, no one ever got hurt and if you had trouble, they would stop by and help without hesitation, and politely check back with you to make sure things were ok. never once did I find white supremacy but lots of rednecks (not a slur here, using the proper local term here).

part of the constitution gives us freedom of the press, so those nonsensical hate literature and goods vendors have a right to be there, as the owner says, just walk away from the vendor stand. the constitution does not have a clause (so far) that says only politically correct literature allowed.

years ago I went to my first gun show and felt the safest I have ever felt in a crowd. everyone was polite, helpful and cheery, not monanical and the last thing I had to worry about was having my purse stolen!

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» rebel_pig is the return of Cryofan.... Posted by: sirossisofliver
Feed those stereotypes!
Posted by: willie.horton on Aug 19, 2006 5:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Paint those of us who enjoy shooting as extremists, while simultaneously painting our fellow liberals as gun-grabbers.
Nice work.
We wouldn't want to actually win an election anytime soon...
(Just came from the shooting range with my son, an Iraq war vet... we're both liberals, but we do enjoy a quality machine gun).

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» RE: Feed those stereotypes! Posted by: tanstaafl28
» RE: Feed those stereotypes! Posted by: Boomerang
Guns, Gods, and Guts Will Save Us From The Hippies
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Aug 19, 2006 6:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
just kidding. It was a funny banner from the great movie "Cannonball Run." I'm glad we can have guns. Like Free Speech you need to tolerate the idiots, the ill-informed, the crude, and the racist but I'd rather put up the the naz-wackos then lose more rights. We are losing enough already and the 2nd Amendment, ultimately, secures all the others.

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Blame not the Bushites on this one
Posted by: tanstaafl28 on Aug 19, 2006 6:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nobody despises the Bush regeime as much as I, but we do not want to go down the road of blaming everything on the Bushites the way the right blames everything since the dawn of time on Clinton...

Our love affair with firepower predates the Bushites...the Old West, the 20's Era Gangsters, and all the "gun-toting" movies since then, have all given us the "...itchy trigger finger..."

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gun ownership
Posted by: Bbear41 on Aug 19, 2006 7:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a liberal, I am in favor of people being free to own ligitimate sporting weapons. I wonder if the Bushites will be all that in favor of gun ownership when they get into power and feel the cross hairs on their necks.

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» RE: gun ownership Posted by: Redviper
» RE: gun ownership Posted by: aebartle
YOU'RE DAMN LUCKY TO HAVE IT.
Posted by: Neilium on Aug 19, 2006 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What you have is a controlled SAFE twice a year venue for those who want to get a thrill out of bang bang, what a great Idea, a way to let off steam built up by the usa's war mongering propaganda against any non white non christian third world country. The frustration and fear of being caught using firearms that are illegal in the NOW GUN CONTROLLED Australia, helps to heighten hatred of anyone that the country's media propaganda is focussed on at the time.
Yes get your rocks off twice a year, has to be better than killing your neighbours. And what's this running around every november with a hatchet, chasing turkeys.. thing??

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» RE: YOU'RE DAMN LUCKY TO HAVE IT. Posted by: Aussie Kim
re: weakly armed
Posted by: Domingo Nieves on Aug 19, 2006 8:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I don't agree that "only the weakly armed can be rounded up and killed at any time that the powers-that-be decide to do it. ", I certainly support anyone's right to embrace and practice that value. And I too enjoy shooting guns on occasion, and some of my best friends appreciate guns and are a, uh, "a credit to their kind".
I'd like to see a more light hearted, compassionate tone on this website, like, lighten up already ... these are just people, and if you don't like their values, that's ok, but let it go already ...!.

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» RE: re: weakly armed Posted by: karyse
Tiananmen Square
Posted by: felipe on Aug 19, 2006 9:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a perfect example of what happens to an unarmed population and the best arguement for civilian gun ownership ever.

Besides, firing weapons, at NON living targets, can be fun. Most people who have fired a fully automatic weapon will agree.

Its kind of like driving a muscle car, really fast, or surfing a big wave, or any other type A activity

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» RE: Tiananmen Square Posted by: Aussie Kim
gathaiga
Posted by: gathaiga on Aug 19, 2006 10:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lots of those types all over the US. They are one of the reasons I have a concealed carry permit.

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Crawling with feds
Posted by: tussinup on Aug 19, 2006 11:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd imagine that half the people at this event are ATF, FBI and other federal agents. I wouldn't be surprised if they stage this event just so that they can get a good look at the armed wing of the white middle class. Now remember, all of you good liberals. The policeman and the plutocrat are not your enemies. You should be afraid of rural white people. They're the ones who are responsible. Oh, and you redneck gun nuts, remember, the policeman and the plutocrat are not your enemies. Your enemies are pointed headed big city Jewish liberals. They're the ones who are responsible.

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A problem of tone
Posted by: YogiBear on Aug 19, 2006 11:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Knob Creek organizers have for years insisted that the majority of people who come to their machine gun festivals are not white supremacists or militia members. While that's probably true,

One would hardly know it from the Alternet's subtle alteration of the author's subhead. On the original it read:

"The Knob Creek machine gun shoot attracts people of all kinds, including neo-Nazis and other extremists. But Folks get along just fine as they revel in an orgy of firepower."

But by changing it to:

"The Knob Creek machine gun shoot in Kentucky attracts thousands of neo-Nazis and other extremists. But the orgy of firepower helps everyone get along just fine."

What happened to "people of all kinds"? One can only start off reading the article with the supposition that the men, women, and kids are all dangerous potenetial criminals. This thought is reinforced with the visual description of its participants:

"a survey of tattoos, patches, T-shirt symbols, and merchandise at the April 2006 events provided strong evidence of a significant extremist presence."

One could easily make the same case at a Marilyn Manson concert. Furthermore, it is exactly the type of stereotyping the Bush administration uses to keep nonconformist protesters away from his speeches and appearances.

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» RE: A problem of tone Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: A problem of tone Posted by: YogiBear
A gun is a dangerous consumer product.
Posted by: owlbear1 on Aug 19, 2006 11:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A lot like cars or aircraft.

I just wish America would treat them alike.

You have to prove via demonstration and testing that you are competent to drive a car. The same logic should apply to weapons.

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» Along the same line... Posted by: YogiBear
hey kids, thought of something!
Posted by: ellie on Aug 19, 2006 11:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you all know how it is that when you're in the middle of some mindless saturday morning task, you have this bright idea!

get this, many of us are regular readers of this site and after a while, you get to know who is who. we all know that there are suddenly a lot of folks logging into the comment section with some wild ideas that are a little 'conservative' for most of us.

this site seems to attract educated people who are drawn to justice and fairness with a good sprinkle of wierdness to make things fun while being serious.

this is a great article! we all know there are trolls in and out of here. if the NSA,CIA,FBI,HSD,FEMA, the local dog catcher and who knows what else, think we've all given them a shocker!

a fairly well armed middle class! isn't this the exact place that Marx said every revoloution must start to be effective? hmmm....

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why should the SS monopolize the gun ranges?
Posted by: edith on Aug 19, 2006 1:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Progressives may regret not having the same proficiency as the radical right some day. The Leon Trotsky Rife & Machine gun range, anyone?

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» About time someone pointed this out Posted by: chief of okeefe
2nd Amendment - Why?
Posted by: Age of Reason on Aug 19, 2006 8:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please remember that the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution was not inserted for hunting deer or rabbits, nor even for recreational target shooting. The intention, as best I can tell, was to allow "We, the People" some method to protect ourselves against tyranny in government. Even if it's a back-to-the wall, last-ditch attempt to dodge the fascist regime which we currently have every right to fear.

That has not changed. I may be a peacenik, but I am not a pacifist. And I'll hang onto my firearms, thank you very much.

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» RE: 2nd Amendment - Why? Posted by: Tankerdeath
» RE: 2nd Amendment - Why? Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: 2nd Amendment - Why? Posted by: drmiller
» RE: 2nd Amendment - Why? Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: 2nd Amendment - Why? Posted by: Sleepy1988
When the USA Needs the 2nd Amendment.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Aug 19, 2006 8:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It will Look like Iraq is today.

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Libertarians against weenies and thier Fascist handlers
Posted by: Tankerdeath on Aug 19, 2006 9:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, when they take all the guns away from the private citizens, who will protect your familiy from the violent deathmonger that's breaking into your house? He's a criminal, so he didn't give up his firepower. You're naked with your wife and baby in the bedroom. He has a pistol. Do you reach for the golf club?

Or do you push the red button that alerts the police kiosk a block from your house? What do you figure, one cop for every two citizens is enough to ensure enough police to man the roving patrols and traffic control points, as well as the guard towers on every block? Do you WANT that many cops prowling around?

Or do you let the guy rape your wife and baby and kill you? He's poor and hooked on smack. You're bourgeois. He needs your possesions and drug rehab.

Sorry, kids. If Robber X breaks into my house, he gets two .45 ACP to the chest and one to the head. And he richly deserves them.

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» How about meth? Posted by: YogiBear
» Not using it Posted by: YogiBear
» We already do... Posted by: Tankerdeath
Brasil
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Aug 19, 2006 11:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Brasil (or Brazil as you Americans spell it) just recently turned down a government (and UN inspired) gun ban by a large majority. They realise that true democracy and freedom necessitates the individuals, when all else fails, have the ability to defend themselves. Brasil is a somewhat-stable democracy but a long history of militarist leadership, European exploitation, poverty, class struggle, racism, and crime. They know to NEVER trust the government and, ultimately, they voted for their rights to self-perservation; despite their government wanting them to vote against guns. All gov'ts like to ban guns (or at least against some folks.) The first Jim Crow laws were against blacks owning guns and travelling. Defend your rights. The 2nd Amendment secures all others.

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» RE: Brasil Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: Brasil Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Brasil Posted by: albrechtkrausse
It's guns that kill people - much more than people killing people
Posted by: Ullern on Aug 19, 2006 11:34 PM   
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.
The US has 0.82 guns per capita.
The UK har 0.10 guns per capita.

The US has 11 firearms deaths per 100.000 annum. (1997 numbers, inching upwards)
The UK has < 1 firearms death per 100.000 per annum.

US/UK = about 8/1 guns per capita.
US/UK = about 11/1 firearms deaths per 100.000 per annum.

8/1 to 11/1 is nearly 1/1 (0.72).

Comparative relationship between guns and gun-deaths is a close correspondence.

The predominant truth is this:
It's not people that kill people - it's guns that kill people.
Case closed.

This proves the NRA can't do math. They're stupid.

People can be mean to each other in many ways, but without strong and handy killing-tools we tend to refrain from killing each other.

And then in addition to people killed comes all the people maimed not killed by gunshots.

Handguns are Weapons of Mass Private Tragedy - WMPT.

Keeping weapons at hand is an irrational way of relating to normal human irrational behaviour from whims and bad feelings.

What a stupid, stupid and immature idea
is a widespread gun-availability

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» Why just pick the UK? Posted by: YogiBear
» Handguns Posted by: YogiBear
Australia ain't nothing like this
Posted by: dallooccio on Aug 20, 2006 1:40 AM   
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i'm an Australian and we don't have anything like this gun culture you Americans have. our gun laws are quite strict and we certainly don't have annual gun and millitia festivals and that is one of the reasons i feel safe and at ease among other Australians, coz i know they don't all have guns they're just itching to let loose. i think that for a culture of people to have an obbsession with the kind of weapons and activities described in this article is a very sad thing coz it only fuels aggression and hate and from that you get racism and violence and wars.

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More Leftist Propaganda
Posted by: bullwhip7 on Aug 20, 2006 1:48 AM   
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Just because you like to shoot a gun doesn't make you a nazi. I sincerely dislike your characterizations of the people who attend, and many of the comments you say you heard. I have been to a machine gun shoot, and they are patrolled by the Feds quite heavily. I am told they have closed a couple at the slightest neo-nazi orientation.

Stop trying to divide this country even further. We have enough problems as it is without you screaming "Nazi, Nazi!!" every time someone shoots a gun at a target. This is a strong country because of its unity, cohesiveness and acceptance. But there's always people like you who would rather have us halting each other and suspecting each others motives. Calling him a Nazi, and her a Bushie. It's our right to bear arms, and I intend to safeguard that right.

The force(socialist international) is strong in you. Keep it up. Maybe we can have another France here, and back away from all the commitments we make, appeasing all the bullies as we skulk away.

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Leftist propaganda or Dissappointment in our fellow humans...
Posted by: tdicks on Aug 20, 2006 7:28 AM   
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Either way, gun lover or hater, every bullet they fire is one less aimed at an innocent civilian in some poor nation in our chaotic and desperate world. Live for peace.

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2nd Amendment rights
Posted by: Reader11722 on Aug 20, 2006 11:02 AM   
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This 'hit' piece about the evils of guns and trying to link every gun owner with neo-nazis is purely propaganda. Why do we need guns? Because the gov't insists on violating our rights by stealing our lands, wire-tapping our phones, banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon, conducting illegal search and seizures and detaining protestors. We need guns because one day (in the near future), the gov't will turn their guns on us.
Final link (before Google Books caves and drops the title):
America Deceived - Book

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» RE: 2nd Amendment rights LOL Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: 2nd Amendment rights LOL Posted by: bornxeyed
Care to compare white and non-white gun crime? No? I didn't think so.
Posted by: Pat Kittle on Aug 20, 2006 11:15 AM   
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Your knee-jerk liberal bashing of whites with guns is the kind of hypocrisy that keeps the Bush scum in power.

Now that you've told us the color of people shooting up targets on a firing range, tell us the color(s) of people shooting up our cities.

And don't forget the graphic details.

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it's about common sense, responsibility and respect
Posted by: harinama on Aug 20, 2006 12:33 PM   
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It's interesting that gun control debates bring out all types of folks from various backgrounds, from staunch anti-gun liberals to survivalist ultra rights.

We all want the same things, a sane govt out of our business, taking care of our country and our families, and providing for our citizens, not fighting corporatist foreign wars.

That being said, this debate really has NOTHING to do with guns. It has to do with common sense, responisbility and respect. Most on the left side of the fence do not want to take away our right to bear arms. What they do want is regulation of firearms, meaning required registration with strong background checks and good solid training of gun users. So that everyone who has a gun is an upstanding citizen who knows how to use a gun in a responsible fashion.

While i cringe at automatic shooting ranges such as this, i recognize that indeed they are very regulated and safe. In some ways it's not unlike your typical fps shooter, or a game of paintball. Shooting ranges as a whole have a good service to provide, so that if you have to shoot something(or someone), you will have a better chance of striking your target and not missing.

Every gun user should have to go through 1x training in each type of weapon they want to use(ie. handgun,rifle,etc), with emphasis placed on safe handling,carrying,cleaning and shooting habits.

That being said, I find it unfortunate that there is so much blatent violence in America today. We truly are a warlike nation, when sex is demonized and war is glorified.

Guns have a place in our society, but they need to be heavily regulated to keep them off the black market. Gun violence in America is far higher than in european countries.

Gun lovers: If you support more methods to curb illicit gun use and it's devastating consequences, liberals will get off your back. They do not want to take away your guns, they just want to see less gun-related crime in the news.

Gun haters: If you would just lay off legal gun owners a bit, they might not feel like you are trying to take them away through increased regulation.

We have many common purposes, lets talk more and get at the real issues surrounding guns-

their easy availability, and lack of enough safeguards to keep them in the right hands

aggrandizement of guns in the media

the social and economic breakdown of interurban minority families

govt foreign and domestic policy that treats every issue as a "war"(war on poverty,drugs,terrorism,etc)

The right of every american to protect their families, and to hunt to provide them sustenance.


thats my 2cents...

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america's brainwashing by the weapons industrial complex
Posted by: chrisp. on Aug 20, 2006 2:03 PM   
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The American people have been brainwashed and indoctrinated by the weapons industry and its cronies in the us government.The weapon industry (biiiig money making machine!!!) whose only motive is to keep on raking it in have managed to instill fear throughout the American society (and milked the 2nd amendment for all it's worth) and provide those poor helpless citizens with the weapons to protect themselves from all the nasty bugs crawling out of the American woodworks. Now these weapons come from an industry that doesn't care a single iota about the sacredness of human life (where are all the bible bashers on this one hey???) and has a nasty trackrecord of poisining your air, water and land. But yes, keep yapping on about the 2nd amendment and the fat boys in the weapons industry will pat themselves over yet another battle won.

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» Freedom Must Be Defended Posted by: edith
» Military industrial complex Posted by: YogiBear
Assured Slaughter beings Peace?!?!!
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 20, 2006 3:21 PM   
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Well this bodes well for the gun lovers. Everybody with equal kill power hanging out and being cool because of it.
How totally retarded!! Have we really degraded ourselves to the point that the only way we can respect eachother is by mutally assured destruction? Well if destruction is how we make folks get along......There's a comet heading this way and it's going to wipe out ALL HUMANITY. and the rest of the World. You have'nt got long. So all the crap you thought was real,the cars,the yachts,big houses,lots of jewlery,fat bankrolls,don't mean shit! The only thing that matters is the People around you and how you want them to remember how you acted when the last sun rose on your town.
The 'Hyper-Violence' kids are that way for one reason and one only...FEAR! Fear they have no control. Fear they have lost their place in the world. Fear that they are'nt just good enough.Fear of being left behind.Fear of being subjegated.
They are the bootlickers of the dominate culture,the Wealthy. They support such endeavours.It's good for the homeland terror actions. Only the thing is,these poor deluded saps don't know they are being used by the Wealthy. Their money comes in 'filtered' so they have'nt got a clue.
I often wonder 'Just how long this farse we call 'The Dominate Society' would last if we quit giving in to all their 'meddleing' in your's and my Lives?
If you want to stop the killing, BARRACADE THE ENTRANCES TO PLANTS THAT MAKE AMMUNITION!!!! Guns become clubs without bullets. Clubs break. The Peace People need to come out again and help stop the maddness.

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» RE: Give Peace a Chance Posted by: jeffrey7
Fire Power
Posted by: sulphurdunn on Aug 20, 2006 5:13 PM   
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The .223 cal. gattling gun sounds like a clever way around federal regs. against posession of automatic weapons.

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» RE: Fire Power Posted by: JuanPeron
» RE: Fire Power Posted by: YogiBear
Use A Scientific Analysis
Posted by: sofla100 on Aug 20, 2006 5:14 PM   
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If you look at this scientifically, the problem is not some people going off to shoot a machine gun somewhere. If the guns are fired in a controlled setting and location, what is the problem? The problem however is Americas Laws on guns. Statistics show guns are 10 times more likely to be used in suicide, domestic violence, or a crime then in self-defense. A comparison with other countries bears this out. England, Germany, France, all with much lower rates of gun violence. Look at the problems in America with just the number of kids who get there hands on guns, and in poor areas where they proliferate and take many lives. So, its not that guns are someting evil or bad, its just that I don't know how to justify something as dangerous as a gun being essentially uncontrolled as it is in America now. That is the problem. As for defending yourself and your rights, we are in the era of our government having nuclear bombs. So, do we allow citizens to also own nuclear bombs? If guns were really just for self-defense it would be ok, but its a technology let loose and that causes problems.

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» RE: Use A Scientific Analysis Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Use A Scientific Analysis Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Use A Scientific Analysis Posted by: YogiBear
check on state power
Posted by: rtdrury on Aug 20, 2006 6:16 PM   
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The right to bear arms in America is supposed to be a check on state power, as part of the Enlightnment foundation of this nation. Likewise, the Copyright Clause is supposed to be a check on corporate power, though it's been over-ridden. The nation's Enlightenment foundation was more generally skeptical of economic power concentrations but much of that was eroded with "corporate personhood". Now the federal government is largely run of, by and for concentrated power. Banning the right to bear arms would symbolically remove yet another check on concentrated power and further divide the people, division being recognized by concentrated power as an effective means to enslave us. To address the primary concern of the nation's founders (and the vast majority of people), we should reinforce checks on concentrated power. The liberals wishing to ban arms should instead form a united front with conservatives to face down the class war aggressor - concentrated power.

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KNOB creek...
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Aug 20, 2006 6:38 PM   
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...says it all really...

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» RE: KNOB creek... Posted by: Pat Kittle
» Castoffs Posted by: YogiBear
Good job, libs
Posted by: JuanPeron on Aug 20, 2006 8:10 PM   
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Good job trying to paint all gun owners as lunatics and Nazis. FYI, gun ownership is very common among poor and working class whites and you just insulted them all. Keep this up and we'll get Cheney in 2008.

I also know that the article is an utter and total lie, since I have a close friend who's actually been to knob creek, and he told me that Nazi types are persona non grata there.

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» RE: Good job, libs Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Good job, libs Posted by: JuanPeron
Has anyone noticed
Posted by: Ratskii on Aug 20, 2006 8:12 PM   
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that the second amendment has already been seriously watered down. As written, the 2nd amendment guarrantees anyone in this country the right own any weapon, including their own tank, RPG launcher or fighter jet. The Supreme Court has supported the government's contention that such weapon ownership is not protected by the second amendment.

We as citizens could not put up effective resistance against a coup or implementation of martial law with just rifles and handguns. A significant portion of the military and police would have to side with the citizenry for a popular uprising to have a chance. The much more powerful weapon that citizens have in this day and age is the general strike. If enough of the Chinese citizenry had been willing to walk off their jobs in support of the rainbow warriors the government would have come crashing down.

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spacemarine83
Posted by: spacemarine83 on Aug 20, 2006 8:58 PM   
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I have spent my time around guns all of my life and there are two things I can tell you. First, people kill people. I can be with almost anything, and unfortunatly, people do so with guns, but also with knives, clubs, or whatever they can get their hands on. Second. it takes a conscious human act to do this, and typically implies a decision. It has nothing to do with " oops, I pulled the trigger." (In children, yes it does happen that way, but that is due to bad firearms safety.) Having made these two points, let me relate something to those reading this post- I had a loaded gun in my home growing up, having lived on a farm, (that was accessible at all times) and not once did we ever have any sort accidental discharge or someone break in a turn it on my family. In the end, it comes down to people, and personal responsibilities. Also, I am in the NG as an infantryman and have handled the entire arsenal availible to our troops, and agree that civilians should NOT own this equipment. However, by banning firearms, we are not only losing our most basic protection from the government, but also something that has made America great- the freedom of choice. I propose that we allow a limited gun control. Remove the ban from "Assault" weapons, but make ALL of the them (i.e. Ak47, AR15, etc...) class 3 weapons that only the most responsible of citizens may own after extensive hands on training and full state and federal background checks. Also, since firearms are so prevalent to American society, we must teach our children not to fear them, as that is irrational, but instead to respect them and inform adults. Also, people who leave fireams unattened when children are present and have A.D.'s should be punished as if on trial for murder, because competance should be our watchword. Also, understand that criminals WILL get ahold of guns, and we CANNOT ban them, as we would in turn only harm ourselves by losing some of not only our basic freedoms of rights, but also self-preservation and protection. We do not live in an idealistic world, but we can make it better. And believe you me, in my line of work, safety is paramount, and it should be in the civilian side when it comes to firearms. Hopefully someday, we all will come together on this, but until then, we must look at it with realism and wisdom.

Sincerely,
Mike

P.S. Shooting machine guns at targets is fun though...but responsible supervision is a must :)

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» RE: spacemarine83 Posted by: Sleepy1988
On Civil Liberties and the Constitution, bucket analogies and other such things.
Posted by: Jhoffa_ on Aug 20, 2006 10:34 PM   
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A man once said to me that these encroachments ("Common sense" restrictions on the Second Amendment, curtailing the First and Fourth, etc.. as they are all tied together. The Second Amendment being the most important, as without it you cannot protect the others.) are like pieces of sand, placed in a bucket.

When that bucket is full, someone is going to hit you with it.

I think I agree with him.

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Funniest thing I have read all week!
Posted by: Leonidas on Aug 21, 2006 5:25 PM   
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Thank you sir for your humorous piece on the Knob Creek shoot. If I hadn't been there numerous times in the past I would have assumed your deadpan type of humor was serious journalism.

For those of you who don't get what I mean, people who can afford to spend $20,000 on an M16 aren't going to be neo-nazi troglodytes. Furthermore, no wild eyed madmen are running around trying to recruit revolutionaries.

Think of knob Creek as a Star Trek convention that is REEEAL loud. Geeks with guns. I love it.

See for yourself, and bring hearing protection. BTW, a better place is Bulletfest. Look it up.

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Arm the people
Posted by: Burton on Aug 23, 2006 9:39 AM   
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If firearms are so bad, then why don't we disarm the government? It's interesting that progressives generally take a pro-gun-control stance. Effectively, they want to give the state a monopoly of weapons.

But before the people disarm, shouldn't the government give up its weapons in order to balance out things?

Of course, how would the IRS collect taxes unless it is armed?

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» Yes, mutual dis-armament!! Posted by: chief of okeefe
WHY DON'T WE DISARM THE GOVERNMENT (TOO)? Why not, why not, why not?
Posted by: Ullern on Aug 24, 2006 3:39 AM   
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.
“Why don't we disarm the government?”

Hey - good point. I would absolutely looove government to be disarmed, in general.

Yet some central power of coordination will have to remain stronger - in some material sense too - than any individual or group.

So from a (global) society where guns and murderous weapons exist, to a state of disarmament, a planned and controlled transition will have to take place. Unless for some reason guns simply become so unpopular - e.g. after a horrible, tiring war - that bringing a gun into an uncalled-for situation shames people into not abusing them.

The strength of societal central coordination will probably have to include access to arms & guns, for protection (against wild beasts, of all species...). But stronger than the guns would need to be the government’s mental control over them. That’s what the idea of democracy is designed to be: mental control over physical forces, mind over matter.

But that is not quite the case in any known government or democracy now – though there’s a big range from bad to pretty good – as the strength supposedly deriving from the people is constantly used against people in ways out of line with the democratic intentions. To get from the present reality of abuses of guns and strength, and to a state of acceptable proximity to the democratic ideal, is the task we face as a global society.

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pro-rights Dems must be organized to speak out
Posted by: jjcahill3 on Aug 26, 2006 2:35 PM   
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Check out Nevada's Outdoor Democrats

It will be interesting when East coast Dems come out to run for Pres in the early caucus and have to talk to those NV Dems.

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Gun Nut
Posted by: gellero on Aug 28, 2006 12:01 AM   
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OK folks......I am probably the only one posting here that actually has a Machine Gun ( with a silencer too !! ) . It's called a 'class III' license. And to get that you have to have a local judge or sherriff sign the papers. It's a collector thing. Some people like beany babies. So what. But think of this too. These folks.....tattoos and all....are the ones who repair your roof, deliver your goods, climb your telephone poles, fight your wars ( and it is your war...we live in a democracy ! ). They can have these guns precisely because they are good citizens. They probably never asked for a dime in welfare. They have no sympathy for the shiftless and lazy. They see government taking more and more in taxes, and resent 'progressives' notion of the welfare state, because they never asked for anything. Having a machine gun means you have never been convicted of anything. They probably haven't smoked half as much dope as the posters on this board. But they, if caught, are the ones who have their lives ruined by government unlike college kid stoners. Try to steal what they worked for, and they will shoot you without hesitation. Victim is not part of their vocabulary. Guns = Freedom. Guns = Safety.

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I need proof
Posted by: lindalee on Aug 28, 2006 10:46 AM   
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I require proof from all of gun nuts posting on here that "liberal commies" want to take away your right to own a gun. Last time I checked some very liberal senators were in favor of gun CONTROL. I have never understood that to mean that they want to take guns away from all of you. That's the NRA lobby feeding you bullshit.

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Proof?
Posted by: gellero on Aug 28, 2006 5:45 PM   
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How about the democratic inspired ban on so-called 'assault rifles' (which they were not). Fortunately laid to rest by this congress. Try to buy a pistol in NYC. It's the classic 'slippery slope' method. Create a 'crisis' like the assault rifle scare (funny how it seems to have dissapeared ! ) then ban the sale. Confiscation follows. Nothing new about that M.O. Except it makes criminals of free men who won't give up their guns. Or be victims.

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Arms History
Posted by: gellero on Aug 28, 2006 6:07 PM   
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The root of the right to keep arms was a reaction of laws in previous European ( and other ) societies that prohibited arms (i.e. swords, crossbows, etc. ) for common folk - aka 'the people'

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