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Is Marriage Rational?

By G. Pascal Zachary, AlterNet. Posted August 22, 2006.


In the debate over who can marry, both sides imbue the institution of marriage with an importance it neither deserves nor possesses.

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Back in 1983, I sold my own wedding. My mother, a lifelong New Yorker, refused to make a trip to California, so in exchange for moving the location of my wedding to Long Island, I received from her a tidy cash payment.

At the time, I found nothing strange about selling my wedding because I was deeply cynical about marriage as an institution. As a child of the '60s counter-culture, I equated marriage with the Vietnam War -- some sham ceremonial act, like saving the world from communist hordes, that actually had nothing to do with mental health, romance or commitment, but was rather one more way that mass society sought to colonize our minds.

I am not kidding, and, believe me, I wasn't alone. Back in the day, most of my friends saw marriage as a strange ritual, honeycombed with contradictions. Marriages were stultifying, burdened by adultery and inequality. They were invitations to divorce. Of course, as the idealistic 1970s gave way to the pragmatic Reagan years, some of my best friends also got married, though like me with the stipulation, "I don't need the government to sanctify my relationship."

In the context of my own cynicism about marriage, the current fervent pursuit of the right to marriage by gays and lesbians is perplexing. But equally perplexing is the defense of heterosexual-only marriage by judges and religious conservatives. In the debate over who can marry, both sides imbue the institution of marriage with sanctity and an importance that it neither deserves nor possesses.

I don't say this simply because I had the most painful divorce in human history. (Well, maybe not as painful as the fellow in Manhattan who recently blew up his home -- with himself in it -- to stop his wife from getting the place in the final dissolution.) Certainly, failed marriages are no justification for the end of marriage itself. Even I remarried, three years ago, though once again cynically, in order to help my new life partner gain permanent residency in the United States. There are unquestionably practical benefits to marrying. That's why I'm in favor of gay marriage as a legal matter. But in favoring a more liberal criteria for marriage, I worry that we lose sight of the wider and weirder problem of permitting government to validate our most personal social partnerships.

During my lifetime, many good people expended much effort trying to stop the government from lording over the private lives of romantic partners. When I was 12 years old, for instance, a court struck down the ban on blacks and whites marrying. In my 20s, laws against homosexual sex began to collapse. The whole trend seemed downright sane: Get the government out of the bedroom.

By my later 30s, in the 1990s, the privileged status of marriage as an institution had nearly vanished. Children of unmarried parents, once stigmatized as bastards, were now born "out of wedlock," which sounded much nicer and reflected an end to the stigma of unmarried women bearing children. Employers and government, meanwhile, began to recognize "domestic partnerships," handing out equivalent benefits to couples who claimed to have the same sort of binding commitment and mutual regard as husbands and wives. Later, these same benefits were extended to same-sex partners, and for good reason. Gay couples deserve the same effective legal protections and benefits as straight ones, married or not.

All these changes highlighted the essential arbitrariness of marriage, undermining fatally the claims that romantic partnerships must be endorsed by God in order to qualify as moral or legal. The government accepted that marriage was purely civil and subject to the same rules of procedure as any other. Of course, the implications of this principle have delivered us to our present conundrum. If we do not exclude gays from adoption, or employment in a police force or attendance at Giants games, then we cannot exclude them from marriage either.

I accept the implications of the principle. At the same time, I pine away from the good old days when it seemed marriage was doomed as a legal institution and a social ideal. Obviously, the challenge to marriage has receded, if not vanished altogether. As a ceremony and a social reality, marriage reigns supreme. But, rather than celebrate the hegemony of marriage, I submit that we are rather stuck with this peculiar institution in much the same way as we are afflicted by death, disease and taxes. In the battle over who gets to marry and who doesn't, we would be wise to remember that, wide or narrow, the circle of marriage brings pain as well as joy and sometimes more of the former than the later.

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G. Pascal Zachary, a frequent contributor to AlterNet, is the author of "Endless Frontier: Vannevar Bush, Engineer of the American Century."

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Cynical Enthusiast
Posted by: troy.burgos on Aug 22, 2006 2:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you! Can we please just abolish marriage already? Cant we support each other without involving the state in our affairs? In fact, can we just remove these people (the politicians) from our lives altogether? It would be nice to escape from this insecure desire to own one another and simply be together without all the bourgeois red tape. I agree with the need to support the homosexual community and end this ridiculous exclusion from the legality of their commitments but it does seem like such a trap to arrange our commitments to each other in terms that seem so deadly to the real urge to love each other passionately. And why? Tax-benefits? How suffocating to a relationship does that sound? "My dear, Im so in love with you right now! If only we could somehow synthesise our finances in such a way as to minimize our expenses to the federal government." "Oh! Kiss me, you mad fool!" Kick these bureaucrats out of our romantic lives! And while were at it, how about out of our collective lives as well?

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» RE: Cynical Enthusiast Posted by: Mattyboy
» RE: Cynical Enthusiast Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: Cynical Enthusiast Posted by: troy.burgos
» RE: Cynical Enthusiast Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: Cynical Enthusiast Posted by: troy.burgos
» RE: Cynical Enthusiast Posted by: troy.burgos
» Government & Religion Posted by: jreinhart1
Marriage
Posted by: kit79 on Aug 22, 2006 2:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While it is a lovely thing that two people want to commit to one another in the eyes of the law, and marriage is in itself a lovely concept, I see the exclusion of gays from marriage as troubling. It represents to me the view that marriage isn't based on equality and love, but rather still on the oppressive notions of "husband" and "wife" and the continued tyranny of gender roles - husband as head of household and wife as dependant. The fact that a woman is still expected to take her husband's name speaks of the time when women were property, and men find some of the divorce laws outdated and unfair. Not to mention the idea of lumping two people together legally is annoying in my view.

I like the idea of partnership. The word "partnership" is nice. If I am looking for a partner, I am not looking for someone to support me or suck money from, nor am I looking to clean their house and have their babies and hear and obey. I am looking for a cool person that I really like.

It's always been my thought that there ought to be two kinds of "unions" - those for couples with children together and those without (including the gays, of course, unless we're counting step-children), and those with children should have financial provisions in case of divorce to protect a child's standard of living (and yes I do support making sure child-support money goes to the child) and those without only need the basic benefits without too much financial entanglement or liability.

In short, a union should be about love, not antiquated gender roles or finances or expectations or inequality.

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» Well put. Posted by: ezilla
» clarification Posted by: Michelle
Government Failure Enforces Marriage
Posted by: igoeja on Aug 22, 2006 3:35 AM   
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We live in a country that provides no social safety network, where education, health, and retirement are insecure for most American's, as well as being grossly unequal in distribution. In a more equitable and equal society, with a less corrupt government not controlled by corporations, marriage would lose many of its economic benefits, but as long as people are treated as workhorses for plutocrats' ambitions, marriage is a practical necessity.

I am getting married in October, and neither of us is traditional, and although I am marrying for love, I can feel how marriage salves the economic securities of life. For others, the vagaries of dating are laid to rest, and for others, marriage provides a backdrop for raising children. None of this should be denied any human being, but the retrogressive culture and government that makes human lives miserable makes traditional relationships the norm.

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It's all about taxes!
Posted by: kgs1947 on Aug 22, 2006 3:40 AM   
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Marriage wasn't instituted as a "sacrament" by the Catholic Church until the 11th century or so...only because they wanted power over couples in what they did and did not do. Celibacy came around the same time...only because they didn't want priest's wives and families to inherit property. Prior to the century, priests were married with kids. It's all about taxes and power! Still is.

Queer organizations, such as the Human Rights Campaign, decided that they were going to speak on behalf of all gays and lesbians, and they wanted the same thing that heteros have...legal protections. What a crock of shit! Why enter into a failing, hetero institution? Wouldn't it have been so much better to simply demand our legal rights of protection? We don't need the government or church to sanction a "holy" union of two or three or four partners. Now we are seeing the effects of such bullshit! Here we go with queer divorces and child custody battles. What a mess we've gotten into now. The Human Rights Campaign and others like it would do best to stick to the fundamentals...afterall, aren't we being pulled by our noses by the "fundamentalists"? lol

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» Ceremonies Posted by: BlueTigress
akai ringo
Posted by: akai ringo on Aug 22, 2006 3:49 AM   
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Please forgive an ignorant question from a foreigner who has never been to the U.S. and at my age (nearly 70) almost certainly never will, but is marriage such a big thing in the U.S? In Scandinavia, the number of children born to unmarried couples has long exceeded those born within marriage, and I believe we are rapidly approaching that point in my own native country of Britain. Certainly, in conversation, the term "partner" is used far more frequently than husband, wife or spouse. Even in Japan, where I now live, though society is more conservative, the trend is toward people simply choosing to live together, although having children while you are single does have disadvantages. If marriage is still such a big thing in the U.S., why is this?

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» RE: akai ringo Posted by: Royal
thank
Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 22, 2006 4:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thank Zachary for inserting a nice glob of rationality into the marriage thingy. Now if the public at large could get rational about marriage and who is eligible for its dubious benefits we could procede peacefully into a future filled with happy rational descendents.

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being rational
Posted by: wawa on Aug 22, 2006 4:36 AM   
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The State should offer Civil Ceremonies and governments should have no say in who get's married as
Marriage's are ceremonies that bless the union of two individuals,

Religious institutions should be the one's to decide if they will bless the union of any two people, it's not the business of government to decide who should and should not be married.

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» RE: being rational Posted by: fork
» RE: being rational Posted by: zoomorph
I know
Posted by: Camin Harner on Aug 22, 2006 4:37 AM   
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I know this will be a minority view here, but I think there's something to be said for fidelity, for a legal/civic/personal commitment that can't be dissolved on a moment's notice, for growing old together. The alternative, it seems to me, is a lifetime of shallow and dead-end relationships, and an age of loneliness if I should fall into a state where I'm no longer appealing to prospective partners.

I think I'd like love to not be subjected to the whims and comparison shopping of the marketplace. Maybe I'm just not cynical enough.

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» RE: I know Posted by: debedb
» RE: I know Posted by: Camin Harner
» RE: I know Posted by: bqtrain
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» "We"? Posted by: NowYogi
» RE: I know Posted by: ezilla
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» RE: I know Posted by: rickbub
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» RE: I know Posted by: ezilla
» RE: I know Posted by: Camin Harner
» RE: I know Posted by: ezilla
» RE: I know Posted by: katsunderthestars
» RE: I'm not married to my friends Posted by: Camin Harner
It is not simply about economics, but it is that, too.
Posted by: redfrog on Aug 22, 2006 4:58 AM   
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My partner does not have rights to visit me in the hospital or get information about my treatment unless I have a paper on file there allowing this, so emergencies are tricky for us. This recently became an issue. Imagine having to carry your papers with you at all times. She is not automatically due any of my retirement consideration should something happen to me and that is precisely because there is no legal, accepted, shorthand way to describe and legitimize our 18 year relationship. Heterosexuals take these things for granted.

Because there is no legal standing for us as partners, no blanket acceptance by the state, there follows no clear social acceptance. People who you would ordinarily consider "good" are free to say things or act in ways you would find unacceptable if their words or actions were directed at a heterosexual couple. Yet, by and large, you expect us to be tollerant and restrained.

I am not sure being able to be married is the best way to address all the (over 1000) ways gays and lesbians are second-class citizens in this country, but the discussion allows an opportunity to discuss the ignorance--and even the hatred-- of a lot of people. If gays and lesbians stopped paying our taxes and stopped participating in a system that accords us very little civil representation, this would move the discussion to a whole new level. We are not engaging in illegalities or large-scale protests, so this little discussion about equal rights while expecting us to be equal citizens in our behaviors is a small thing to ask.

Maybe it would be good for you to think twice about taking our talking points away or trivializing them when you enjoy all the rights and privilages you as voting members of this society continue to deny us.

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» Like anything else . . . Posted by: kit79
There may be better alternatives...
Posted by: mothersmovement on Aug 22, 2006 4:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but for the time being, marriage is the way a surprising number of rights and benefits are conveyed to individuals, particularly to children, which is why this is such an important issue for same-sex couples. (27 percent of same-sex couples in the U.S. are raising children.) In fact, the writer mentions one of these rights -- the right to legal residency for some foreign nationals through marriage to a U.S. citizen -- but there are many other examples. For instance, if a spouse in a married couple with minor children dies, the children receive Social Security survivor benefits -- but if parents aren't married, the kids are out of luck. A significant number of married women receive health insurance through their spouses' employers, which is important because women are less likely to hold jobs with employer-provided benefits like pensions and health insurance. And with men's wages stagnant (except among highly-educated workers) and jobs with livable wages disappearing for less-educated workers (which includes the vast majority of U.S. workers), husbands are dependent on wives earnings for a decent standard of living. All this is far from ideal, but we'd have to do some serious restructuring of social policy if we wanted to dispatch with marriage as an institution and not exacerbate social inequality.

I'm not suggesting marriage is a substitute for adequate social welfare policy (I'll leave that to the marriage promotion crowd). But at this stage, liberating the commitment to a shared life from the context of marriage is economically -- as well as ideologically -- complicated. As for never-married women who have kids, most of them are vulnerable to tremendous hardship -- the affluent single moms who have kids with anonymous sperm donors we read about in the New York Times are a rarity. Single mothers are swelling the ranks of the working poor, and social supports for them (paid sick and caregiving leave for all workers, humane minimum wage, affordable quality child care, continuing educational opportunities, etc.) are non-existent. I believe in women's right to reproductive self-determination -- including a woman's right to decide whether, when, and under what circumstances she will become a mother -- but without adequate support for maternal employment in the U.S., it's extremely problematic to represent single parent motherhood as a liberating lifestyle.

In many ways, the marriage-as-oppression model is a class-laden issue. Without adequate social and economic support for the work of child-rearing, the advantages of non-marriage disproportionately defer to the dominant group (i.e., heterosexuals, the affluent, and men).

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What is your point?
Posted by: Pete123 on Aug 22, 2006 5:02 AM   
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Your reasoning leads no where, except maybe to anarchy, which is okay, but please try and say something insightful about your topic of marriage and society when you write for the public. Yes, it's true, that people say they wish they had paid more attention to the people in their lives instead of work, blah, blah, blah, and, yes, these days even the best relationships we have in our lives are not quite enough to make us feel whole and happy. Had enough of the traditionalists? Well, guess what. Life breaks everyone. Even normal straight people! The trouble with normal and straight is it always gets worse? Is that your point? Well, it's a dumb cliche to rationalize your own maladjustment to a chaotic situation. Trying marrying the state if you think that would be such a good, supportive, life partner. You say you are pining away for the good old days when marriage seemed to be a moribund institution. Well, look around, and while you are at it, look what a stuck-in-the-seventies narcissistic, whining adolescent you appear to be through your writing.

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» RE: What is your point? Posted by: Paul D
Don't overlook the ad industry's nefarious role
Posted by: Moonray on Aug 22, 2006 5:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Marriage endures mainly because it's dollar-driven, like most other aspects of Western society. Young girls are programmed by ads and popular culture to desire marriage and children. Weddings and related activities comprise a multibillion-dollar industry.

Marriages -- and, just as importantly, divorces -- result in a huge amount of consumer purchasing, making a lot of people rich.

It's weird, silly and generally insane, but that's the way it is.

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» Silly, silly... Posted by: ABetterFuture
Why I married
Posted by: Audri on Aug 22, 2006 6:00 AM   
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Six years ago, my partner of 10 years and I decided to arrange to go to the court house and have our commitment to each other recorded by the state. It had nothing to do with our commitment to each other, the sanctity of our relationship, or current economics. It was purely so that, in the case of death or emergency, we would have the rights to decision making on the part of our partnership. This should not be denied to any caring couple. That any partner of X years can be excluded from medical - or any! - decisions, suffer property disputes in times of distress, actually be denied access to their loved one!! I am angered and disgusted by those people (who may be otherwise kind and good people) can look at a couple, who have commited their lives and love to each other, and declare that love wrong. Love is never wrong. Marriage should be to protect love, not judge it.

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» RE: Why I married Posted by: sirossisofliver
» RE: Why I married Posted by: NowYogi
» RE: Why I married Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Why I married Posted by: sirossisofliver
» RE: Why I married Posted by: mizkaye
» RE: Why I married Posted by: Aimee
Marriage is subjective...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Aug 22, 2006 6:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
both sides imbue the institution of marriage with an importance it neither deserves nor possesses.

Poppycock. Marriage is as important as you see it; further it provides a springboard for cooperatively raising children.

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» Good for you! Posted by: ABetterFuture
Check out...
Posted by: Ktflake on Aug 22, 2006 6:39 AM   
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Judith Butler. Brilliant theorist. She takes a similar stand. Interesting.

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In the case of death or emergency, we would have the rights to decision making
Posted by: Aimee on Aug 22, 2006 6:50 AM   
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Marriage is just for legal matters as in the case of death or emergency rights to make decisions as well as for tax laws. I love my husband because he is my best friend, my life long partner. 30 years together now! And we would have stayed together without the marriage vows.

Partnerships are wonderful - having babies is not always a good thing for any marriage - think about your life before bringing a child into your home - your lifestyle. And your lifestyle will never be the same once you bring babies into your life.

Peace and Good Luck,
Aimee
www.dataoptions.com

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My rational 2 cents
Posted by: magmaybe on Aug 22, 2006 7:02 AM   
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First off, of course marriage isn't rational. What a hilarious idea. Nothing about the idea of romantic love put forth by our society, actual love, the state of being in love, etc., is rational. That's the thing about emotions - they aren't always rational. And rationality is not always a good thing.

The problem with marriage in the U.S. is that it's married to the government.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with participating in a ritual (whether you make it up or it's a part of your faith tradition) wherein you and your chosen partner (or partners - I don't see who gives a crap if three consenting adults want to marry each other) declare your feelings for each other in front of family, friends, and your chosen deities. It's true that marriage still demands a legacy of sexism that it's not going to shake off easily, but I see lots of folks making unconventional, egalitarian marriages for themselves all the time. The key is for the act of marriage to be a true choice, like anything else. The fight for gay marriage belongs in houses of worship, where gays and lesbians of varying faiths should rightly continue to demand equal access to the sacraments and rituals of their chosen faith tradition. As it stands, because marriage is also tied, inappropriately, to the governement, gays and lesbians must fight for the basic right to unite their finances as well as fight for the right to participate fully in their faith traditions.

The legal matter of "marriage" should be entirely separate. The government has NO right to sanction what is essentially a personal, spiritual, private event. The government has NO right to declare who can and cannot participate in this event. What it *may* be involved in is guaranteeing the rights of consenting adults to unite their finances in order to facilitate their partnership in our society (in terms of healthcare, hospital visitation, end-of-life decisions, child-rearing, and bank accounts). Folks who choose to unite their finances should do so through a separate process, NOT called marriage, and it should have no restrictions on gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. If two single heterosexual moms decide it would be financially easier to raise their kids as a team, and want to combine their finances to make this easier for health insurance purposes, etc., then why not?

In one way, I absolutely agree with the author - marriage as a governmental institution is wrong. The act of marriage can be beautiful, or terrible, or oppressive, or liberating. But whether it is any of these things should be a separate issue from whether one should be allowed to join their finances. We should abolish the governmental institution of marriage and award civil unions to all consenting adults who desire it.

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Marriage is NOT "rational", but then...
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill on Aug 22, 2006 7:11 AM   
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...human beings are NOT rational, but RATIONALIZING, animals.

And being "in love" (i.e., a temporary collapse of ego boundaries, usually lasting 6 to 12 months) is a state highly condusive to rationalizing!

The extravagantly fortunate few manage to pass from this (psycho-pathological) state into a genuine partnership, grounded in mutual respect and deep affection. Such unions (which are far more rare than blue diamonds) are the BEST environments for raising children, among many other good things.

And there are just enough of those unions to keep the rest of us ever hopeful, in the face of seemingly endless disappointments!

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» "We"? Posted by: NowYogi
» RE: "We"? Posted by: Camin Harner
Why of Marriage
Posted by: vkobaya on Aug 22, 2006 7:21 AM   
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Interesting article, but fails as usual to question deeply enough. What are the benefits of marriage, that is why marry? What is the meaning of marriage as an institution, as a ceremony, etc. Benefits of marriage can be devided into benefits to the state, benefits to society, benefits to the couple, and to the children. Traditionally, state encourages reproduction which means more members of society, more business, greater economy, etc. which aside, demostrates the falseness of the anti-imigration position since immigration has replaced reproduction as a means of economic growth. Reproduction also produces more cannon fodder for wars, again, a reason to approve immigration since immigrants largely fill the ranks of our army now.

Benefits to society, are marriage prevents social disruption due to fights over spousal rights. Gives recognition status to couples giving them legitimacy in society.

Benefits to couple are pooling income and resources, tax benefits, certain rights such as hospital visitation, say in the disposal of remains after death of the spouse, etc. Also an affirmation of the couples commitment to each other, sadly often soon violated.

Children benefit also from the above status, gain family stability, a name, etc.

Of course, this is not an indepth coverage, need also to consider disadvantages, and reality versus the romance of marriage. Point is, this article only scratches the surface. My comments aren’t meant as indepth coverage, but simply to indicate that far more needs to be considered. Much applies to gay marriages, but also much does not. Also traditional marriage is hardly what exists now in society and need to consider differences and what should be done about them.

Also, as for the author, she entered into marriage cynically, with the lowest expectations, should not be embittered that it became a self fulfilling prophecy. She made her bed, why should she be surprised what was in that bed.

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DOMA: 1,358 Individual rights denied.
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Aug 22, 2006 7:32 AM   
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Before even getting into the anthropology, the psychololog, much less the poetry of marriage -- there's the legalities. And they do matter!

It's all very well for a divorced traumatized heterosexual man to adopt the posture that "we don't need marriage at all" ... but even the Swedes, the gays and the feminists have extensive arguments of why we DO. 'Marriage' remains a very useful tool for organizing families ... and one of the very great advantages OF state-sanctioned marriage is that it DOES provide a more or less orderly way of dividing family assets and providing for the ongoing care of children in the event of a break up.

"Private" and informal arrangements between partners do not enjoy this taxpayer-subsidized referee and reconciliation service, nor the "legitimacy' of formally recognized unions, nor 'closure' if the union dissolves.

The 1996 Federal Defense of Marriage Act, which Joe Lieberman voted for and Bill Clinton signed, bars same-sex couples from (depending on who does the counting) between 1,300 and 1400 specific FEDERAL rights, benefits and immunities which mixed gender couples enjoy as a matter of course.

The Defense of Marriage Amendment would exclude same sex couples from at least an equal number of advantages secured under STATE law.

So right off the bat we have the question of by what right does a majority, decide to strip a minority of 'some rights?' Or decide for the minority that the rights weren't worth having in the first place?

Many of these benefits of marriage can be recovered with the help of a good Lawyer, Accountant and Estate Planner working together to create, Wills, Powers of Attorney, mutual adoptions of adults, joint adoption of children, trust funds, etc etc ad nausium. But the cost is high and the reliablility of the end-product, uncertain .

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Define marriage
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam on Aug 22, 2006 8:03 AM   
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Debates like what we have today unfortunately cement the idea of marriage as purely a legal institution in the public mind. Over a year ago I signed the piece of paper that allowed me to marry my fiance legally. We did this purely for health insurance, financial aid, and other such benefits, and explicitly agreed that we were NOT married. We are having a real wedding in a few weeks which will take care of that.

However, when people find out about my legal marital status, they insist that I am already married. I of course deny this, saying that all we did was sign a piece of paper. Their response is "that's what a marriage is," or some variation thereof. These are also the same people who deny that homosexuals who have undergone commitment ceremonies, have been together for 20+ years and have children are married.

Marriage as a legal institution with it's mainstream religious implications is obviously problematic. However, I don't believe the personal institution should be abandoned. I personally define marriage as a publically announced commitment, typically for life, to another person. It is a solemn and important public vow that is present in almost every single religion and is usually recognized even by the non-religious. It is a powerful institution which greatly needs reform at the legal level, but is worth holding on to.

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» RE: Define marriage Posted by: ezilla
Marriage is Superfluous
Posted by: sirossisofliver on Aug 22, 2006 8:17 AM   
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I have been in an hetero "domestic partnership" now for eight years to the most wonderful woman who ever lived. We are as committed and 'exclusive' as any "married couple". We made the decision to "live in sin" precisely because we had both been through the marriage and divorce thing. Both of us have grown kids, and have never had the intention (or the possibility) of having any more.

I find that our absence of a legal and religious shackling enhances our commitment to one another, and to our relationship. That is, our commitment is purely voluntary, rather than legally or religiously "binding"...thus, our fidelity has more meaning because each of us are "free" to leave at any time. that's extremely empowering and liberating!

Many of our "married" friends are amazed at how affectionate we are after so long.....we tell them that we're on an eight-year, perpetual honeymoon...because we reaffirm our "choice" by staying together each day, each month, each year, building a life together based entirely on mutual respect, trust, and love.

If you've met the right person, you automatically "know" it...why f**k up a perfect relationship by going through the legal/religious baggage and bullshit of getting married?

Proud to be a "fornicator",
Sir Ossis

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» RE: Marriage is Superfluous Posted by: tap17x
» RE: Marriage is Superfluous Posted by: WyrdSister
Rationality of marriage
Posted by: BlueTigress on Aug 22, 2006 8:27 AM   
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Love is not rational. Nor are any of the other emotions. They never have been, never will be.

Marriage can be a highly rational act. One couple I know married so she could get his health insurance, and he could get her education benefit. They were good friends with each other, so there is hope they worked out a way to live and are still married. Any marriage where most of the reason is for some material benefit needs to be thoroughly negotiated out because, despite everyone's best intentions, traditional husband/wife role expectations will still creep in.

I do not know why there is not a state-sanctioned partnership for gay people. It seems faintly ridiculous for there not to be.

But then I would also support the wide acceptance (legally and morally) of traditional common-law marriage. This would be the case where if a couple (hetero or homo) were living together openly for seven years, they would be married in the eyes of the law.

I know, I can hear non-traditionalists screaming "I don't need the State to sanction my relationship!" But think about it this way: you and your beloved have been living together happily (mostly) for 10 years. Then they get hit by a car and are in the hospital and their half-sister Griselda who never liked you anyways says, "You can't come in here. Only family can." Never mind that the rest of their family expects you to show when they invite your beloved over. Legally, she's got the high ground.

Marriage does have a host of social and legal conveniences. It can be an egalitarian relationship if the spouses want it that way. I know one couple where she did not take his name because she was already professionally established under her maiden name. I also know another couple where he took her name because he liked it better than his name.

Marriage is mostly what you make of it.

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» but then again... Posted by: Must have been the Roses
Ready For the Museum Shelf
Posted by: NoPCZone on Aug 22, 2006 8:27 AM   
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Unless you are really serious about a lifetime commitment marriage today is nothing more than legally sanctioned serial adultery. Why be a hypocrite?

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Marriage ain't for me.
Posted by: tap17x on Aug 22, 2006 8:40 AM   
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Lawyers and the government are welcome to stay the hell out of my personal life. Marriage should not be allowed or disallowed by the government, but a purely private contract. A couple's committment should be between them and renewable or cancellable as they and only they specify. Let's eliminate the idea of wedLOCK.

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» RE: Marriage ain't for me. Posted by: Lauren
» Time To Bring Out the Bloody Kleenex! Posted by: sirossisofliver
» RE: That kind of marriage . . . Posted by: sirossisofliver
end the debate
Posted by: excaliburtb1982 on Aug 22, 2006 9:10 AM   
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how about we end the debate over the definition of marriage, who gets benefits, and who gets to marry who by doing away with ALL state-appointed benefits to married couples. Then, noone would have anything to fight about. Gay couples insist that they have a right to marriage, well let them have it. Do away with ALL government benefits to married couples and thus the problem disappears.

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» Enact Fairness Posted by: sirossisofliver
Tennesseans, Please Read
Posted by: Mike Stevens on Aug 22, 2006 9:13 AM   
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For everyone:
Quite frankly, it seems like the current struggle over marriage actually puts it in perspective. People are forced to understand marriage as a dual civil-religious institution (with the former often much more accepting and forgiving than the latter). As this meme of dualism spreads, people will attach certain meaning to civil marriage, meaning such as tax benefits, hospital visitation rights, property and inheritance rights, retirement benefits. Once that understanding has crystalized, the questions "Why the heck do we give such legal weight to marriage?/Who needs an institution to show their love?" will gain ground. What we must focus on now is a) giving the LGBT population its due dignity and equality, and b) spreading an understanding of marriage as first and foremost a legal contract operating entirely distinctly from the reach of religion.

----------
FOR TENNESSEANS, especially:

What I wrote above details what I've been trying to emphasize in my hours and hours spent in the Vote No on 1 campaign. What I and my fellow door-to-door canvassers, emailers, Facebook invite-senders, etc. have tried to inform voters is that it's not the label "marriage" that gays and lesbians want. It's the rights (see above; there are over 1000 federal and state ones) that come with it. And it's the dignity that comes from being able to stand proudly and have your relationship affirmed and made equivalent (read: given the same title) as that of your fellow man. I've sent emails to every TN county Democratic Party with an available website/email address urging them to support this cause. I've invited over 900 college students and alumni in the Memphis area to join the statewide Vote No on 1 Facebook group. Together with others campaigning to get this word of equality and dignity out, I've spent 4 Saturdays urging local voters to overturn this discriminatory amendment.

And I'm here urging you to do the same. This campaign right now is understaffed and underfunded. We need all the support we can get. What I have listed above entails just a few examples of what you can do. Please, support this initiative, support fairness. Make a donation. Wear a T-shirt, give your car a bumper sticker or your yard a sign (all free). Call your friends and family. Speak to church members. And keep in mind the words of Julian Bond, Chair of the NAACP:

"Gay and lesbian rights are not 'special rights' in any way. It isn't 'special' to be free from discrimination. It is an ordinary, universal entitlement of citizenship."

Do what you can to fight discrimination. Vote No on 1.

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marriage is about children, period
Posted by: gerdhansel on Aug 22, 2006 9:27 AM   
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Marriage is the legal institution that allows us to pass on our accumulated wealth to our children, period.

If it weren't for the children, none of us would bother with it. Passion ebbs and living with a significant other can be a real hassle. But children are the future, stupid!

Our Constitution promises the blessings of liberty to ourselves and OUR POSTERITY. Children are our posterity, and they need the stability of a family. That means adults who are committed to them from birth to adulthood.

Marriage may not be perfect, but pair-bonding between male and female parents is the sole reason why homo sapiens has been successfull as a species.

Children from stable, two-parent families have the odds stacked in their favor, period.

Every discussion I've heard or seen on this matter conveniently leaves out the children and the future. It's all about ME, ME, ME AND ME AGAIN.

Want to know why progressives can't get enough young people to vote for them? Because most of these young people have consevative parents.

Conservatives are out-reproducing liberals. Look at today's "Wall Street Journal." Go to Wal-Mart and see the inheritors of the future in the shopping carts of Red-America couples.

These children will be the cops, the lawyers and the doctors when you are old and childless. Don't want marriage and children? Great, you've just handed the future over to the descendents of people you despise.

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Is marriage rational? Not any longer.
Posted by: monkeywrench on Aug 22, 2006 9:45 AM   
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Is Marriage Rational?

Not in today's world. And with world population heading for 7 billion and beyond, the environment nearing collapse in many parts of the planet, the poles melting, diseases spreading, and nations and religions increasing their desire to slaughter each other over things that do not matter, like who's God is right, neither may be child-bearing.

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Hollywood's romantic love, monogamy, and marriage
Posted by: NowYogi on Aug 22, 2006 10:21 AM   
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I understand the practical benefits of 'state controlled' mariage for child raising. But, I have seen so many people 'go nuts' because of their delusions about "love".
To me, marriage means control, government and personal (by the partner). As mammals, are humans REALLY monogamous? Or is that just another brainwash to create and control stable 'societies'?

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One more opinion...
Posted by: MatthewSavage on Aug 22, 2006 11:23 AM   
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Before we do away with marriage utterly, I think there are a few points to consider. As somebody else mentioned, one of the key benefits to marriage is that the spouse is then considered family, for purposes of work benefits and hospital visitation rights.

Also critical are the way the law treats children. If the parents aren't married, the father gets a big fat nothing. It ain't the way things should be, but it's the way things are. Well, that's what I've been told, anyway... could be wrong on that.

But the other aspect of marriage that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that in some ways it's a rite of passage. We have none officially anymore, but in many ways marriage fills that role; once you're married you're fully adult... or at least, that's one of the steps.

The standard version of a person's life is: birth, school, maybe college, work, marriage, children, retirement, death. Most people seem to be expected to complete those steps.

Times are changing, obviously. But to deny one of those stages to somebody who wants it is kinda silly. I'm all for same-sex marriages; thankfully in Canada we have them. I also am somewhat against church involvement; that's just a power-grab from religion. And this, from a Christian. I wanted my marriage to be a strictly civil ceremony, but my non-churchgoing wife insisted on having a priest there. Go figure.

We human people are silly and irrational, and we like ceremony and ritual. Don't like marriage? Don't get married. Don't like that I can get married? Mind your own business, thanks.

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» RE: One more opinion... Posted by: fork
What does this all mean
Posted by: jwg on Aug 22, 2006 1:48 PM   
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1. Marriage a binding contract recognized by the state for legal and financial reasons.
2. Marriage a binding contract stating that there is an approved relationship by a religion.
3. Attitude by one group to maintain the status quo because of their perceived loss of status and their belief that if others would only do as they say their world would be better..
4. Attitude by an opposite group that is disadvantaged legally and financially that religous laws are for the people adhereing to that religion.
5. Attitude by the group in the middle that does not wish to take sides or offend anyone but wish they would get over their bickering and solve the global warming, peak oil and world peace problems so the rest of us could have a future to continue living married or not, gay or straight.

One possible solution is for group 4 to establish their own religion that recognizes their type of relationship and let the Supreme Court decide, it has worked for some drug users. However that probably won't work right now until we can impeach Bush'n'friends that are using this as a wedge issue and a few conservative judges die.

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Why Republicans REALLY Support Marriage
Posted by: sofla100 on Aug 22, 2006 2:33 PM   
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The main reason for support of the marriage institution in the USA right now is because of the Republican desire to severely limit and cut social welfare benefits. Obviously, with two people married and working, the state no longer has to have much obligation to provide health care, child care, and other benefits. In the Scandanavian and European countries, these benefits are already in place. However, in the USA, the money is needed for things like the Iraq war, and endless national security and defense projects to prop up the Empire. And, the reason for gay marriage not being supported is because most gays are self-supporting anyway, so social welfare for them is not the issue. As for all the religious, etc., arguments, the dollar bill is what shines for the elites in charge.

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What is the function of Government then?
Posted by: Must have been the Roses on Aug 22, 2006 5:31 PM   
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If our society cannot even collectively define what a family is, how will it ever have a direction, and thus meaning? The "decide-for-yourself everything-is-right-but-don't-tell-me-what-to-do" society won't work; which is why the baby boomer 60s culture didn't change much. We have to go through the difficult task of making these tough decisions collectively, forever defining, and redefining, who we are and what we stand for as a society.

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» So Who Watches the Watchers.... Posted by: sirossisofliver
Yep, being single is "lonely."
Posted by: susannunes on Aug 22, 2006 6:42 PM   
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What a crock. How sad it is people think they have to be married because they are afraid of being alone, which to them is synonymous with being "lonely."

Well, forget that nonsense.

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» RE: Yep, being single is "lonely." Posted by: katsunderthestars
marriage can be wonderful
Posted by: Janet4784 on Aug 22, 2006 11:11 PM   
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As someone who's been happily married for 22 years, and childfree by choice by the way, I must say I'm saddened to see such negativity. If you look for unhappiness, you will find it in abundance.

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WHY MARRIAGE LAW IS DUMB!
Posted by: Kavanaugh on Aug 23, 2006 9:18 AM   
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Originally, marriage was by custom. There were no laws dealing with marriage, however the customs (of the various cultures and nations) were aimed at solidifying the cultural norms. For example, in a Matriarchal culture they would have had to do with the place of the woman within the culture. A good example would be cultures where family name and inheritance are matrilineal.
Most cultures today are Patriarchal. And, the customs of such cultures would reinforce such. A simple example would be the groom carrying the bride over the thresh hold.
The first laws having to do with marriage in our own tradition were instituted by Augustus in Rome. What he did was to take the customs of his own family and institutionalized them as laws. The most famous of the examples of his laws was the Lex Julia Adulteris. He applied it against his own daughter, Julia, because her husband wasn't "doing his job" of keeping her from having sex all over town. But, the law was not named after her. It was named after their family, the Julians, as was Roman custom to name laws for the families from whose customs they were derived. Under the custom of the Julian family, Augustus exiled Julia to an island in order to "save the family honor."
The main purpose of the marriage laws within Rome was to protect the Roman nobility from contamination from below. Later the laws were extended to all of Italy. Part of the law was aimed at encouraging the growth of Roman (later Italian) population in order to have enough soldiers to protect Rome (later Italy) and the Empire.
The practical effect was to discourage the introduction of "foreign blood" into the Roman-Italian bloodline. It was the basis of segregation (and, by extension, Miscegination laws).
One of the first laws passed by the newly Christian Empire (shortly after Constantine) was the forbidding of homosexual marriages. You can tell that by the use of a word that implied "nubtuals"--i.e. "nubia"--within the law. However, that law already had some measure of precedent in the sense that shortly before Constantine one of the pagan Emperors had abolished the tax on and the holiday of "Prostitution." The point was that the tax and holiday were sort of a rough acknowledgement of homosexuality in that there were many male prostitutes along with the "ladies(?)".
In my opinion, the reason for the extreme reaction against Gay Marriage is a visceral response to marriage as a last bulwark against the watering down of "marry your own kind" (effective segregation at the personal level), and as the final barricade protecting Patriarchy.
In other words: Gay Marriage is seen as a threat to the basic assumtion of the culture. It is Male Domination and White Supremacy that are threatened.
THE PREACHERS ARE "PROTECTING THEIR MEN"!

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Marriage - Just another government carrot
Posted by: gar on Aug 23, 2006 9:58 AM   
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As long as marriage conveys special tax privileges from the government and special insurance treatment from employers, it will remain a desirable and sought after state of being as is any other privilege.

What is needed in this area - as in so many other areas in this country - is a level playing field. Legal, conventional marriage is just one of the many ways used by our wonderful government to mold our society instead of letting our society mold our government.

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Well - Is Marriage Rational or Not?
Posted by: gar on Aug 23, 2006 10:43 AM   
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I just hate articles that pose a question but make no attempt to answer it. It doesn't look to me as if the person who wrote this article is the same person who wrote the title.

What do we have here at AlterNet? A title writer? If so, does he/she even bother to read the article or do they just pull a title out of a hat (or some other even more dark and nefarious place?)

This whole discussion seems to have evolved/devolved into "Should same sex marriage be allowed?" I think the real question is, "Should any marriage - as it presently exists - be allowed?"

I think the answer to this question is not just "NO!" but "HELL, NO!" Let's get back to the original question. Is Marriage Rational? I say it isn't. What we really have in this country is more like serial monogamy - and usually, it is only a fictional monogamy after the first few months.

So, what do you say? Shall we talk about the question? Is marriage rational - or not?

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Keep the Government out of Marriage
Posted by: Kym525 on Aug 23, 2006 12:57 PM   
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The last time government interfered with marriage, blacks and whites weren't allowed to marry - and we're talking about two people - a man and a woman, whom just so happned to be of different races. It took Loving v. Viginia to set the record straight, so I don't trust the government in the least when it comes to something this personal. Then again, they're trying to legislate morality all across the board.

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Theocracy & Gays
Posted by: vangogh69 on Aug 23, 2006 3:33 PM   
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This particular wedge issue is, truth be told, a part of a bigger problem namely the way the church has had its views sanctioned by the state in a clandestine way. Among other reasons, this is why we seperated from George III...but the puritans just couldn't do without certain things and hence, we have the hand of the church creeping up in socially-sanctioned but actually unconstitutional ways (check state and federal laws on "Obscenity" to see where again the church has offered its hand). What we need to do, instead of advocating marriage (an institution which keeps women oppressed, if we're honest about it), is make society more equitable so people don't have to marry just so they can have more money in their pockets or health insurance? Furthermore, society as it's currently set up is strongly biased against single people, who last I read, contribute a great deal more to the world economy and US economy than married people.

As far as gay marriage is concerned, well...

Since the onslaught of the AIDS pandemic, the gay rights movement has been co-opted by white, bourgeoise gays who unquestioningly support the capitalist patriarchy we live under. Gone is the radicalism of the post-Stonewall era, where gays loudly proclaimed their differences from everyone else and demanded acceptance as they are. Gay activists of the post-Stonewall era would have laughed at the idea of marriage ("Who HIM, darling, we just fuck sometimes...it's not that serious"), so much were they too a product of the times which rejected the conformity and oppresive banality of "the ways things are." Then came the 1980's. Replacing them were the "guppies," middle class men and women who sought to replace the (offensive to some) image of radical gays with a "we're just like everyone else" gays, a.k.a., Assimilation. "Please let us join the military," "Please let us marry," became the rallying cry championed by beacons of guppie respectability such as Human Rights Watch (which DO NOT speak for all gays, skip whatever they say). Nevermind that most gay people are working class (without the "assets" which married people boast about being able to "pass on or consolidate"); nevermind that gays suffer 80% of known hate crimes in the US; nevermind that the 1964 Civil Rights Act doesn't include Sexual Orientation; nevermind that poor gays in this country continue to die from AIDS because the government would rather spend its money helping "our friend and ally, Israel" occupy Palestine and blow up Lebenon than fund a cure...no no, the (vocal) movement as it's now known wants to "be just like everyone else, marry, and happily genetrify the nearest block near you."

Frankly, I (a queer non-white male, btw) think marriage is part of the problem, not the solution, and it needs to go FOR EVERYONE.

There was a time when marriage was looked at with scepticism and disdain for it being the perfect expression of the oppresive patriarichal order. Do people not think about such things now? Just my thoughts.

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» I agree, vangogh69 Posted by: Michelle
The Problem with Marriage
Posted by: Kym525 on Aug 23, 2006 5:06 PM   
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is quite simple. It hasn't changed with the times. Marriage in this country as it stands now is a throwback to the 18th and 19th century ideals as set by white upper-class Americans who had the means to keep their women at home. Of course, as history shows us, rural and poor women of ALL colours HAD no choice but to work in order to provide for their families. Nowadays, in order to even afford the basics of life - food, clothing and shelter - two incomes are necessary, and in some cases, not even that's enough.

If people - especially on the right - are serious about keeping marriage intact, then it needs a long overdue overhaul. First, we must rid ourselves of the ridiculous societal pressures that force people into getting married even though they're simply not ready. We must stop making marriage 'cute' and get down to the seriousness of the relationship. Women need to put away their harlequin romances and men need to put away their playboys and get real. We also need to re-examine the division of labor within a marriage, and women must not be stuck (still) doing up to 80% of the housework. Guys, get off your butts and get in the kitchen. If many of the world's greatest chefs are men, then you've got no excuse. Let's see some more 'soccer and ballet dads' out there.

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Is bitterness in the drinking water out there?
Posted by: Janet4784 on Aug 23, 2006 6:42 PM   
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Yikes, people, get over your sexist selves. Lots of husbands do half the housework, cook, and provide emotional support. You just aren't looking, because it's easier to spot and criticize the dysfunctional. Happy couples don't make the news, but we are legion. You probably just find us boring and thus easy to ignore.

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Vote For Me...
Posted by: Verdillac on Aug 24, 2006 6:09 AM   
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...and I will grant Tax Exempt Status to ALL HOMOSEXUALS and anyone else who is being disregarded by the Federal Government regarding basic human rights in this country. Upon taking office I will wager my income that every male conservative gay-bashing anti-same-sex-marriage cretin will be screaming about how gay they are just to be tax-exempt.
Their slogan will be "you don't have to suck d**k, just say that you do". The benefits outweigh the hardships.

Of course, Bi-sexuals will not be able to benefit fully from this tax break, only half as much.

By the way, marriage is only as sacred as the people within the marriage make it.

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» RE: Vote For Me... Posted by: Michelle
An Evolutionary View of Relationship
Posted by: dailyrev on Aug 27, 2006 4:31 PM   
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This piece is welcome to me because it echoes something I wrote in a book I published last year. If you're interested in reading the entire thing, look here. The approach I took was to dissect and deconstruct the traditional marriage vows, to reveal their roots in a destructively hierarchical ideology. Here's an excerpt:

In the standard form of the Christian wedding, called the “solemnization of matrimony” in the Book of Common Prayer, the Minister’s introductory remarks generally follow this formula (with relatively minor variations in language):


"Dearly beloved, we are gathered together here in the sight of God, and in the face of this company, to join together this Man and this Woman in holy Matrimony; which is an honorable estate, instituted of God, signifying unto us the mystical union that is betwixt Christ and his Church: which holy estate Christ adorned and beautified with his presence and first miracle that he wrought in Cana of Galilee, and is commended of Saint Paul to be honorable among all men: and therefore is not by any to be entered into unadvisedly or lightly; but reverently, discreetly, advisedly, soberly, and in the fear of God. Into this holy estate these two persons present come now to be joined. If any man can show just cause, why they may not lawfully be joined together, let him now speak, or else hereafter for ever hold his peace."

Wow. Here we have the citation of Authority in abundance (God, Christ, and Saint Paul all say this is “an honorable estate”); there is also our old friend Fear (God forbid that anything meaningful in life be done “lightly”); and there is also the rigidity of Permanence (this is Forever, so if you think these people are making the biggest mistake of their lives, you’d better speak up now—how many times has this warning been ignored, do you think?).

But (aside from the canned greeting to the congregation) there is not a single mention of Love.

There is Fear, Reverence, Advised-ment (whatever that is), Sobriety, Mysticism, and Discretion; but there is no Love. Why not? The appointed Officer of God on Earth is parting the spiritual curtain on the ultimate commitment of human conjugal Love, and he has not a word to say of it! In fact, the traditional version of this sacrament puts Fear at the forefront, all the way into the heart of the ritual itself. Presuming that no one in the company has spoken out against the prospects of this marriage, the Minister’s very first words to the couple are these:

"I require and charge you both, as ye will answer at the dreadful day of judgment when the secrets of all hearts shall be disclosed, that if either of you know any impediment, why ye may not be lawfully joined together in Matrimony, ye do now confess it. For be ye well assured, that if any persons are joined together otherwise than as God’s Word doth allow, their marriage is not lawful."

Well, I guess there’s nothing like a little Terror to set the stage for a lifetime of connubial bliss and fun with family. The question that occurs to me is, “what if people actually took this nonsense seriously—I mean, right in the moment?” If my fate as a bridegroom at the Day of Judgment depended on whether I’d properly identified an “impediment” at a certain critical moment of my life, I’d want to open a discussion and ask some questions. “Father, uh...what do you mean by ‘lawful’—I don’t know all the rules in the Bible, and many of the ones I know seem to contradict each other—can I be damned for something that happened at the bachelor party last month, or does this only apply to what goes on from today?”

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THANK YOU...
Posted by: Marcy on Aug 27, 2006 7:55 PM   
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for saying this! When I was more of an activist back in the 70s, our big issues were dissolution of the nuclear family and the military. I therefore found it confusing and disheartening when the top issues for the gay movement became the right to marry and the right to kill, I mean, serve. More of us need to speak out.

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The third.
Posted by: argirosa on Aug 27, 2006 8:44 PM   
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Marriage is irrational from the point of two separate individuals. It only makes sense from the point of a new third. The child of the relationship, which doesn't necessarily mean children but is easily understood if you have them. It's a warm place for the child to grow and is warmed by the growing.

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As said before....
Posted by: talkville on Aug 27, 2006 11:38 PM   
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Mr Marx once said back in the 19th century words to the effect that the Law only rises to the level of the social base. Today in the USA this is poignant.

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Vows vs. Commitment
Posted by: lafosner on Aug 28, 2006 12:50 PM   
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In the book How to Be an Adult in Relationships, David Richio makes a good point. He says that while commitment is required for a healthy adult relationship, vows are not. In fact, vows can be dangerous as they can create a false sense of commitment. We promise to be committed for life when we say our marriage vows--but the real commitment is how we deal, day to day, with our private issues. If we spent more time learning how to behave as loving adults, we would not only not need marriage, we wouldn't have any desire to prevent gay people from taking those vows, if they so choose.

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