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Public Stoning: Not Just for the Taliban Anymore

By John Sugg, Creative Loafing (Atlanta). Posted August 15, 2006.


Christian reconstructionists believe democracy is heresy and public school is satanic -- and they've got more influence than you think.

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Two really devilish guys materialized in Toccoa, Ga., last month to harangue 600 true believers on the gospel of a thoroughly theocratic America. Along with lesser lights of the religious far right who spoke at American Vision's "Worldview Super Conference 2006," Herb Titus and Gary North called for nothing short of the overthrow of the United States of America.

Titus and North aren't household names. But Titus, former dean of TV preacher Pat Robertson's Regent University law school, has led the legal battle to plant the Ten Commandants in county courthouses across the nation. North, an apostle of the creed called Christian Reconstructionism, is one of the most influential elders of American fundamentalism.

"I don't want to capture their (mainstream Americans') system. I want to replace it," fumed North to a cheering audience. North has called for the stoning of gays and nonbelievers (rocks are cheap and plentiful, he has observed). Both friends and foes label him "Scary Gary."

Are we in danger of an American Taliban? Probably not today. But Alabama's "Ten Commandments Judge" Roy Moore is aligned with this congregation, and one-third of Alabama Republicans who voted in the June primary supported him. When you see the South Dakota legislature outlaw abortions, the Reconstructionist agenda is at work. The movement's greatest success is in Christian home schooling, where many, if not most, of the textbooks are Reconstructionist-authored tomes.

Moreover, the Reconstructionists are the folks behind attacks on science and public education. They're allied with proselytizers who have tried to convert Air Force cadets -- future pilots with fingers on nuclear triggers -- into religious zealots. Like the communists of the 1930s, they exert tremendous stealth political gravity, drawing many sympathizers in their wake, and their friends now dominate the Republican Party in many states.

Titus' and North's speeches, laced with conspiracy theories about the Rockefellers and the Trilateral Commission, were more Leninist than Christian in the tactics proposed -- as in their vision to use freedom to destroy the freedom of others. That's not surprising -- the founder of Christian Reconstruction, the late fringe Calvinist theologian Rousas J. Rushdoony, railed against the "heresy" of democracy.

A Harvard-bred lawyer whose most famous client is Alabama's Judge Moore, Titus told the Toccoa gathering that the Second Amendment envisions the assassination of "tyrants;" that's why we have guns. Tyranny, of course, is subjective to these folks. Their imposition of a theocratic state would not, by their standards, be tyranny. Public schools, on the other hand, to them are tyrannical.

North is best known to Internet users for his prolific auguring that a Y2K computer bug would cause the calamitous end of civilization. In the days prior to the advent of this millennium, North urged subscribers to his delusional economic newsletters to go survivalist and prepare for the end. Many did so, dumping investments and life savings, a big oops.

"I lost a million and a half dollars when I sold off real estate," one of North's fans, a home-schooling advocate from Florida, told me during a lunch break between lectures touting creationism and damning secular humanism. But my lunch companion still anted more than pocket change to hear North make more prophesies in Toccoa. "I believe Gary North on Bible issues," he explained. I suggested that false prophets often pocket big profits, but I was talking to deaf ears.

Hosting the "Creation to Revelation... Connecting the Dots" event was a Powder Springs, Ga., publishing house, American Vision, whose pontiff is Gary DeMar. The outfit touts the antebellum South as a righteous society and favors the reintroduction of some forms of slavery (it's sanctioned in the Bible, Reconstructionists say) -- which may explain the blindingly monochrome audience at the gathering.


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John Sugg is senior editor of Creative Loafing Newspapers. He was the recipient of the 2005 Society of Professional Journalists "Green Eyeshade" award for serious commentary, and he has won more than 30 other significant awards.

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$$$$
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Aug 15, 2006 1:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
""I lost a million and a half dollars when I sold off real estate," one of North's fans, a home-schooling advocate from Florida, told me during a lunch break between lectures touting creationism and damning secular humanism"

GOOD!

The Chronically Stupid should not be allowed to have money.

As a wise person once said "you can tell what God thinks of money by the people He gives it to".

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: $$$$ Posted by: metavurt
» RE: $$$$ Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: $$$$ Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: $$$$ Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: $$$$ Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: $$$$ Posted by: willymack
» RE: $$$$ Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: $$$$ Posted by: Aussie Kim
» great nit-picking you loser Posted by: moenbailey
» RE: $$$$ Posted by: cstrut
worry more about
Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 15, 2006 3:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to worry more about the religious extreme nuts in our own country than about the Talibanic extreme nuts elsewhere in the world. If American democracy is overthrown it is much more likely to be overthrown by Bushie-loved American nuts than it is to be overthrown by foreign nuts.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: worry more about sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: worry more about Posted by: Lincoln fan
» What to really worry about! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: What to really worry about! Posted by: surfreality
» RE: What to really worry about! Posted by: aonghus36
» Falling asleep in class! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» See, someone can make sense! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: What to really worry about! Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: What to really worry about! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE:need I say any more... Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: need I say any more... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: need I say any more... Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: need I say any more... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: What to really worry about! Posted by: surfreality
» RE:wow, i can go on and on.. Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: wow, i can go on and on.. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: What to really worry about! Posted by: crashgrab
» Extreme right is extreme left! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Consider this Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: Consider this Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Consider this Posted by: russianblue1
» The Declaration of Independence Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Let's start cracking the nuts Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Everyone needs play time! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: veryone needs play time! Posted by: surfreality
» RE: veryone needs play time! Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: veryone needs play time! Posted by: surfreality
» RE: worry more about Posted by: jolo
Who Needs Enemies When You Have "Christians"
Posted by: ChristopherLL on Aug 15, 2006 3:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I lived with people discussed in this article for many years in Alabama. I have lived throughout this country and as a group they were the most unethical and immoral human beings (behind closed doors) that I have ever experienced. They are utterably miserable inside and their cowardly behavior is to compensate by gaining power over others by subversion, defamation and condemnation. But as for being "Christians" it is so only by their self label and not by actions, deeds or attitudes. They are devoid of compassion, forgiveness or basic human understanding. They will never be anything but impotent in the real world and only need to be given a confined area to vent their resentments about life on this planet. That is all they can do. Should they venture out of the South to other parts of this country my belief is they will wither and self destruct. The sooner the better.

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Public Stoning should be fun for the whole family
Posted by: pitty on Aug 15, 2006 3:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
North has called for the stoning of gays and nonbelievers (rocks are cheap and plentiful, he has observed).

Now this is just insanity. Who made this guy god and when people fled England to escape relgious tyranny and these guys want to bring it back---with them at the helm playing God's surrogates of course.

How convenient and touching---

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» The "Pil-GRIMS" Posted by: sirossisofliver
» RE: The "Pil-GRIMS" Posted by: cmaukonen
» RE: The "Pil-GRIMS" Posted by: spittybanned
» RE: The "Pil-GRIMS" Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: The "Pil-GRIMS" Posted by: putman9
FUN da MENTAL List - You too can enjoy being in a religious whacko cult
Posted by: marklar on Aug 15, 2006 4:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Life as we know it is endangered by the unwillingness of politicians and the corporate media to have any expose or discussion of two subjects.

1) Evangelical Christian Fundamentalist
CNN (Christian News Network) panders to the "faithful" all day long. / Howard Dean once made a reference to the Extremist Fundamentalist Preachers and was attacked into submission for fear of alienizing the cults mindless followers.
(As if they'd ever vote for a Vermont Democrat.) Evangelicals are a violent terrorist cult that wants to take over the nation, destroy the Constitution and repace it with the bible. No one has the huevos to stand up to them.

2)Izrael Lobby & Izraels OCCUPATION/apartheid of Palestine.
Shhhh. Don't want to upset the Jewish angst, do we? Who needs to talk about Izraels ongoing slow handed ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Shhh.

These are the two most serious threats to our democracy today.

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I know it's fun to think about but,
Posted by: Dobby on Aug 15, 2006 5:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there is a difference between crazy religious, yet very sincere, rhetoric and actually throwing stones at a person untill they die. comparing these people to the taliban is fuckin' ridiculous, no? help me out.

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re "Titus' and North's speeches"
Posted by: concerned Canadian on Aug 15, 2006 5:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, who but a fellow Reconstructionist would even remotely agree with their take that they have God in their hip pocket, but fortunately for those who would argue from a democracy perspective we are able to deconstruct their arguments and find them lacking in logic. However, it diminishes your own logic if you continue to claim that their "speeches are laced with conspiracy theories about the Rockerfellers and the Trilateral Commission. " You fall into the same trap as those we warn ourselves to watch out for. Is this a subtle , or not so subtle, plant article meant to equate conspiracy theorists with the likes of Titus and North, obvious self righteous wannabes? Can we please, Alter Net, at least edit these kinds of postings?

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OIY!
Posted by: wawa on Aug 15, 2006 5:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Soon after I had published the pamphlet "Common Sense" [on Feb. 14, 1776] in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion... The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."-Tom Paine

It has been said that evolution is being held up by fundamentalism and the surge of fundamentalism throughout all faith paths sends shivers through cynical atheists and mystics alike. The bumper sticker actually did get it right: "We are spiritual beings having a human experience."

Fundamentalism thrives on FEAR and FEAR is how totalitarian regimes control the massess.

The problem is NOT with Christianity, the problem is that so very FEW have actually done it!"-GK Chesterton


"Christainity is a great religion. THEY should all try it!"-Gandhi

We who are wide awake are doing something about confronting the hijacking of The Prince of Peace AKA: Jesus Christ, by the right wing neo-con, neo-christian's who have so misunderstood and corrupted the Philosophy of Christ which is ALL about love, forgiveness, compassion, and NOT judging the non-believer, but to see The Divine in everyone and all of creation.

The following quote is from Rev. Jim Wallis
Chapter 2: The Revolution has started now...
http://www.wearewideawake.org Homepage:

"The good news is that there are millions more who are not represented by the Falwells and the Dobsons, and they are raising their voices and doing something about confronting the hijacking of the Bible to further political gain. All faith traditions battle with fundamentalism. Religion is meant to be a bridge, not a wedge. The seduction of the religious right by politicians is being challenged by our rapidly spreading grassroots sojourners community that stands up with a firm moral center and echoes Lincoln’s refrain: what is needed today is reflection, penitence, humility, accountability, and that we should all seek to be on God’s side.

"There are over three thousand verses in the Bible referring to the poor; this is the moral issue of our time. There are also the moral issues of poverty, ecology, and war; it is the church’s job to address these moral issues, too. Separation of church and state does not mean the segregation of religion from the human dialogue….

"Our deepest choices are between hope and compassion. Hope is not a feeling or a state of mind, but an abiding choice you make because you have faith. Faith is supposed to change things that look impossible to be changed. Cynicism sees the world as it is and gives up trying to change it. Cynicism is a buffer against commitment….

"History testifies to the fact that all great changes came about by social justice movements that were based on faith and religious values. America has a proud history of progressive spiritual activism. We are the ones we have been waiting for. We can change the nation when we change the wind, and people of faith are called to be wind changers.”





"If enough Christians followed the gospel, they could bring any state to its knees." - Father Philip Francis Berrigan

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» RE: Father Berrigan spoke the truth. Posted by: jweathers777
» RE: OIY! Posted by: Gma1
» RE: OIY! Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: OIY! Posted by: freedem
» RE: OIY, INDEED! Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: OIY! Posted by: YHWH
» RE: OIY! Posted by: jweathers777
» RE: OIY! Posted by: YHWH
» RE: OIY! Posted by: willymack
» RE: OIY! YHWH Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: OIY! Posted by: cuja1
The bull has two horns that we must grab - today.
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Aug 15, 2006 5:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have two groups with aims that don't conflict sharing power that will destroy our country. The sincere religious right has no concern for wealth when weighed against religiious issues and the corporate establishment has no concern for religious issues when weighed against wealth. A perfect recipe for a coalition against those of us who care about our freedom to pursue both.

Until we the people rise up and get both these groups out of our government we are on the path to destruction. We need "government of the people, by the people, and for the people". We need the separation of the corporatocracy and state as well as the separation of church and state.

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Paranoid and Intolerant Progressives!!
Posted by: Poe on Aug 15, 2006 6:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no radical Christian fringe movement that can take over this country.

It’s not happening now, and it won’t in the future. We have enough checks and balances in this country to keep it on an even keel.

The same people that fear and hate the religious right in this country are the same people who feel that the small percentage of Islamist extremist....sorry.....I mean....confused young men and women who like to blow themselves up.......have a just cause for their bloody tactics..

I don’t agree with Bush and the religious right’s stance on gay marriage, stem cell research and abortion....but I would hardly call those views extreme.

Progressive’s proclaim how open minded they are about other cultures. Tolerant of someone else’s lifestyle. But when it comes to religious poor folks, particularly from the South, I hear terms like,yahoo’s, bubba’s, hicks, hags.rednecks and my favorite, stupid toothless rednecks.

Call them anything you want....that’s ok....they’re from the southern bible belt, but when we talk about plots to blow planes out of the sky......we have to be delicate with our words so we don’t offend anyone.

What a fucking joke!!





Poe

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» The joke's on you Posted by: sausage
» Nonsense Posted by: brunowe
» WRONG, TROLL Posted by: LMNOP
Not So Rich
Posted by: not- so Rich on Aug 15, 2006 6:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say give them the South. Who needs it? I don't like grits anyway.

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You want a real scare
Posted by: sausage on Aug 15, 2006 6:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The above mentioned Gary North not only was an associate of the late R.J. Rushdoony, but his son-in-law. North is a regular columnist for the libertarian web site LewRockwell.com.

But even scarier that North, who seems more interested in making a killing from investments than saving souls, is Rushdoony's The Chalcedon Foundation.
"We believe that the whole Word of God must be applied to all of life. It is not only our duty as individuals, families and churches to be Christian, but it is also the duty of the state, the school, the arts and sciences, law, economics, and every other sphere to be under Christ the King. Nothing is exempt from His dominion. We must live by His Word, not our own.

"Chalcedon's activities include foundational and leadership roles in Christian reconstruction. Our emphasis on the Cultural or Dominion Mandate (Genesis 1:28) and the necessity of a return to Biblical Law has been a crucial factor in the challenge to Humanism by Christians in this country and elsewhere. Chalcedon's involvement in and commitment to Christian education began with its inception when founder Rousas John Rushdoony pinpointed the Christian and home schools as the most important institutions in reversing the influence of secular Humanism."

Chalcedon Ministry statement

"A guiding principle of Chalcedon, in fact, is its devotion to maximum individual freedom under God's law. Chalcedon derives its name from the great ecclesiastical council of Chalcedon (A.D. 451), which produced the crucial Christological definition of Jesus Christ as God of very God and Man of very man, a formula directly challenging every false claim of divinity by any human institution: state, church, cult, schools, or human assembly. Christ alone is both God and man, the unique link between heaven and earth. All human power is therefore derivative; only Christ may announce that "All power [authority] is given unto me in heaven and earth" (Matthew 28:18). Historically, therefore, the Chalcedonian creed is the foundation of Western liberty, setting limits on all authoritarian human institutions by acknowledging the validity of the claims of the One who is the source of all human freedom (Galatians 5:1). Consequently, we oppose top-heavy, authoritarian systems of government which are, by definition, non-Christian. We advocate instead a series of independent but cooperative institutions and a highly decentralized social order.
Chalcedon Vision statement

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» RE: You want a real scare Posted by: cmaukonen
» RE: You want a real scare Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: You want a real scare Posted by: willymack
» RE: You want a real scare Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Libertarians. Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: You want a real scare Posted by: freedem
DOMINIONISM REDUX
Posted by: LMNOP on Aug 15, 2006 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christianity is antithetical to (a) democracy - the concept of majority rule and self-governance, (b) egalitarianism - the concept of all people being equal, (c) humanism - the idea that man is capable of making valuable contributions in human knowledge and well being, and (d) environmentalism - the idea that the earth is rare and valuable and needs to be protected.

These are from a couple of previous posts:

"[D]emocracy and theocracy are antithetical. Democracy requires that people write the laws and are the ultimate source of political power, a bottom-up approach to government. Theocracy requires the opposite, a top-down approach in which all power is in the hands of those who claim to speak for God, and all laws are already written and non-negotiable. Both systems cannot coexist simultaneously."

... and these three, the first and last of which are most relevant to the discussion at hand:

"Christianity teaches three pernicious “facts” that have profound implications for our ability to survive our transition from the age of religion through the ages of technological discovery and implementation and into the spiritual age:

1. The earth and the entire physical universe are unimportant. They are a stage through which we pass for the blink of an eye compared to the eternity that follows. They are disposable. The universe is made of an inferior substance, matter, the inferior form that God had to assume to pay your way into the vastly superior world of immateriality: heaven. They will all be destroyed very soon in war and fire, so there is nothing there that can be protected or that needs protecting.

2. All life below human is soulless and is the property of man to exploit as he sees fit without concern for suffering.

3. Man has no good ideas and can contribute nothing of value to the fund of human knowledge all of which comes only from scripture. All valuable knowledge is in the Bible and is timeless. All other thinking is vanity. Government that is not authoritarian and God-centered is invalid. Man has no right, just gifts from God. Humanity is worthless and, like all other flesh and matter, is unfit to be in the presence of God.

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» Overgeneralization Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Overgeneralization Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Overgeneralization Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Overgeneralization Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Overgeneralization Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Overgeneralization Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Overgeneralization Posted by: excaliburtb1982
» RE: Overgeneralization Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Overgeneralization Posted by: babs
» RE: Overgeneralization Posted by: MatthewSavage
» I gotcher back, ssegallmd Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: Overgeneralization Posted by: Ratskii
» RE: Overgeneralization Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: DOMINIONISM REDUX Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: DOMINIONISM REDUX Posted by: willymack
» RE: DOMINIONISM REDUX Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: DOMINIONISM REDUX Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: DOMINIONISM REDUX Posted by: aussidawg
Dominionist activity listed at theocracywatch.org
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Aug 15, 2006 6:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This website is a MUST READ and identifies the history, people and activities to convert the US into a theocracy. It also has up to date information on recent activities.

The organizations such as the Religious Roundtable are highly connected with Senators. Then there are the usual groups that believe that all other Christian faiths are made up of non-believers. The groups can get militant and are very agressive to turning this country back to the dark ages. Diseases and disorders are God's punishment. I used to be one of them and the brainwashing they perform made me think that Satan was everywhere and that God's chosen were above the law such as killing John Lennon for making the song "Imagine" to death to all leaders that don't follow America and their form of Christianity.

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Who needs Al Qaeda?
Posted by: Ellen Remore on Aug 15, 2006 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So another gang of devout Christians is heard from. This time, they want to stone "unbelievers" and assassinate "tyrants?" Maybe somebody can explain to me why freedom-loving Bush doesn't consider these psychopaths terrorists and/or potential evildoers. Oh, wait, that's right--just like him, they have Jesus on speed-dial.

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LeeAnnG
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Aug 15, 2006 7:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Has anyone else out there read Shirley Jackson's short story "The Lottery"? This lends a whole new creepiness to that little horror tale.

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» RE: LeeAnnG Posted by: Fiona
» RE: LeeAnnG Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: LeeAnnG Posted by: babs
CHRISTIANS
Posted by: Roverton on Aug 15, 2006 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
CHRISTIANS:

IF WE ARE TRUE TO CHRIST'S WORDS, WE WILL DENOUNCE THE HATRED BEING SPREAD TO OTHER GROUPS. WE WILL APPROACH IN LOVE AND SEEK TO MAKE AMMENDS.

IF OUR PASTOR HAS TOLD US TO SHUN AND HATE ANOTHER - HE IS SATANICALLY POSSESSED AND WE IN TURN SHALL FOLLOW FOR OBEY HIS WORDS.

IF WE TAKE ARMS AGAINST ANOTHER MAN IN OUR OWN LAND, MUCH LESS THEIR OWN - WE ARE FOLLOWING THE ORDRERS OF THE DEVIL. HE HAS TRICKED US. WE WILL THEN HAVE FOUND OUT TOO LATE.

IF WE ARE VIOLENT TOWARDS THE UNARMED, WE WILL BE DEMONIC.

GOD HELP US BE STRONG. WE WILL BE TESTED.

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Israel
Posted by: ichibon on Aug 15, 2006 8:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Agree with both statements, it is very difficult to critize Israel without being labeled a jew hater. People can't seem to get that being critical of Israel's policy's, is not about hating jews.

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» RE: Israel Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Israel Posted by: surfreality
The undermining of science is scary
Posted by: LauraK on Aug 15, 2006 8:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and hypocritical. Do these people have cellphones, computers, fly in airplanes or drive cars? Do they use flush toilets and take hot showers in clean water? Do they go to the doctor or hospital when they are sick or injured? Do they use radio or television? Electricity? Eat modern foods? etc. etc.

Science is responsible for their lifestyles, and democratic institutions have allowed them to become wealthy. Do they really want to go back to a time when most infants died, women died frequently in childbirth, and most people lived to be 35? How many of them could live on subsistence farming? How comfortable would they be infested with fleas and typhus-carrying body lice?

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross," said Sinclair Lewis. I wonder how these people really see their godly kingdom on earth. The actual shape of society does not seem well thought out to me. (and I've read a lot of their stuff) Is there one vision for us rubes and another for them? I wonder.

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EVANGIMENTAL CASES: NOT CHRISTIAN; NOT AMERICAN
Posted by: fiskhus on Aug 15, 2006 9:01 AM   
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The delusional paranoids that form this unholy Temple Sanhedrin of pseudo-Christianity are not only unAmerican (because they despise the principles of the Constitution) but they are also NOT Christians - because they clearly despise the teachings of Jesus.

It is only through their alternative (but certainly not educational) system of home-schooling and segregation academies that they have been able to create their "frankenstein" generations of ignorant followers. Generations that will demand the right to vote to destroy America - and all because they do not have the capacity to understand (or the soul to appreciate) the great promise of America.

The evangelical right's isolationism and racist separatism must never be confused with real American individualism.

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More exaggeration
Posted by: kenhymes on Aug 15, 2006 9:12 AM   
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More exaggeration of the influence of far-right Christian fundamentalists. It's getting to be a regular feature of this site. The extremists are losing the policy debate with Americans on all fronts, only a small percentage of churchgoers agree with them, and the trend in the American church as a whole is back to the center, even to the left in some denominations. Even the author says "Are we in danger of an American Taliban? Probably not today." So what's the point of this? It's not very different from the way the White House proclaims a new threat level: it's manipulative and inaccurate and doesn't do anything to address the problem.

Everytime Alternet prints this stuff, dozens of posters go on rants about the evils of religion, how Christians have caused all the bad things that ever happened (THAT's a laugh: what about industrialism, Stalinism, oppression of people with disabilities, Thalidomide, corporate degradation of the environment - are you going to twist these into things caused by religion? I'm sure someone will as soon as they read this post).

And everytime you do this, you put one more rock in the backpack of the millions of Americans who inhabit both worlds: religion and the left. You are doing the work of the GOP for them, driving a wedge between unsophisticated ordinary citizens, who mostly believe in both God and basic civic justice, and the organizing potential of progressives.

There's no nuance or real analysis in this writing, the pattern is always the same: find a conference of hateful pseudo-Christians, quote them saying awful things, then conflate their activities with the much more crafty and effective pandering of the GOP to the rural conservative portion of their base.

Thomas Frank was too sweeping in his analysis of the failure of the Christian Right, but basically he's correct: they're pawns who never really get what they want, and never will. The country is not ever going to be governable in the way they envision, it's too diverse and too secular and too liberal.

This is all just like watching horror movies: it gives you a little thrill to imagine the terrible possibilities, but it's a fantasy. The most right wing government in the history of our country is in power, and they've demonstrated their priorities: make as much money as you can for your friends, increase the power of the business interests in general, and throw a few bones that you don't need to the social conservatives.

Finally, as I and many others have pointed out repeatedly, the left far too easily throws away its natural and historical connection to religious believers in the US. The Berrigans, Dorothy Day, MLK, the Sanctuary Movement in the 80's, the Quakers, Jewish organizers in the civil rights and antiwar movements - the left and religion are intertwined, though not identical, in all successful progressive movements. It is precisely since the cultural left began to disdain and categorically reject religious people that failure has set in, because the left thus provided the space for the GOP to go to the grassroots and confuse the issues of personal morality and justice.

Enough adolescent posturing. Politics is all about bridge-building and compromise and agreeing to disagree about whatever doesn't get in the way of success. We don't have to share cosmologies to share values of justice and fairness. If we do have to agree on everything, there is no possibility of success for the left, ever.

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» Parrot a Lie Long Enough Posted by: Kym525
» The first stone... Posted by: srqwolf
» RE: More exaggeration Posted by: fork
» RE: More exaggeration Posted by: kenhymes
» "most of the human race" Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: More exaggeration Posted by: Kym525
» RE: More exaggeration Posted by: fairbrother
Our actions betray our "values."
Posted by: monkeywrench on Aug 15, 2006 9:23 AM   
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"Among North's most quoted writings was this ditty from 1982: '[W]e must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation...which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God.' "

Oh, you mean like the madrassas of Saudi Arabia that have trained the 9/11 highjackers and a whole generation of terrorists? Now that's something to aspire to. . .
________

Sometimes when I read of people like those in this article, I feel that we are not godly in our origin. By the actions and beliefs of a depressingly large number of humans worldwide, it sometimes seems that if we were put here at all, we were banashed here as convicts from some more enlightened reality.

With all of our warring, religious animosity, torture, brutality, greed and rapaciousness, with our almost complete disregard for the wonderful little lifeboat, Earth, that we are blessed with in a cold and uncaring universe, we are proving to ourselves – and to whatever superior intelligence that may exist – that we do not deserve what we have been given. And, if the history of Nature is any guide, that we will be replaced.

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Caged Minds
Posted by: needlefoot on Aug 15, 2006 9:45 AM   
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During the run-up to the 2004 elections I was so angry with the Religious Right that I probably would have developed a bad case of ulcers if it had not been for the realization that there are Christians who are progressive and with whom I can have a dialogue.

The fact is, I think, that there is no ground at all for dialogue with Christian Reconstructionists, Dominionists or run-of the-mill Christian fundamentalists. They have locked their minds in a cage. I would gladly unlock the cage for them. But I cannot. I do not have the key. They do.

It is left to me, then, to find common ground with progressive Christians. I hate the thought of turning my back on a segment of our society, of leaving them behind, but I have no choice. Until they unlock their minds, there can be no common ground.

Diane

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Where's Jesus when ya Need Him???!!!
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 15, 2006 10:03 AM   
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If you really listen to the banter comming out of these new'Christians',they sound like the Anti-Christ.
There's no 'Love thy Neighbor', 'Turn the other Cheek' or extention of the hand of 'Peace'. No Christian Forgivness. No
expounding of the truth. Just the same old craziness of the dark ages. Same Idiocy. Same hatred. Same old same old.
To them I say, " Pull your heads out of Jerry Falwell's ass and really look around!!!" Turn off Pat Robertson. Quit being so focused upon Christ's 'death'!!! Following the image of a man nailed to a cross means you worship Death not Life. Means you accept torture and inhuman treatment to become likethe image of the 'leader' Beat to shit and hung out to dry. It means you did'nt get it!!
If Jesus was here,he'd break every T.V. set that had a 'jesus' show on. There would be more than just money changers kicked out of the churches. He'd get rid of the Pope too. If hearing this truth pisses you off....how does it feel to be a failed christian? Don't worry,Jesus told us we live forever,never knowing real death and that we could be and do the same as he,all we needed to do was 'believe'. So I guess you'll have lots of chances to get it right.

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The History Channel is on there side
Posted by: Enkidu Nwyvre on Aug 15, 2006 11:04 AM   
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How many times has a story been presented on the history channel as "the Truth" about the history of the Near East? Where is the critical judgement? Where is the alternative view that the first five books of the bible aren't history but the founding myths of one cultural group?

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How about the 'truth' about American history?
Posted by: Lauren on Aug 15, 2006 11:14 AM   
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I'd like to see half this interest shown in Native American thinking, literature, ect. Native American religion is the most natural solution to the 'problem' of religion, why isn't it ever even mentioned as an alternative? The history of christianity in America is not complete without an investigation into our Native religions and what impact christianity has had there.

That is the real story.

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Great Article, John!
Posted by: christenxx on Aug 15, 2006 11:19 AM   
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Once again, John Sugg proves that the Christian extremists ARE, in fact, out to get us. What's so disturbing about this is that even progressive, liberal, charitable Christians - the ones who run soup kitchens, AIDS hospices, medical marijuana clinics, perform same-sex unions, adopt foster children - are at risk of being either up against the wall with the rest of us pinkos or completely losing their minds. Even a very spiritual person such as myself is in danger - sure I went to Catholic school but my lifestyle and views are much more open minded. The fact that our idiot in chief is a staunch supporter and believer of these cretins really makes me afraid. How easy is it to immigrate to Holland?

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tedbohne
Posted by: tedbohne on Aug 15, 2006 12:43 PM   
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Human kind has yet to evolve to the point where it doesn't need phony gods and jesuses and ancient books of absolute nonsense. ANY RELIGION CAN EASILY BE DISASSEMBLED IN SHORT ORDER WITH A MILD USE OF SOUND REASON, LOGIC, AND A BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF SCIENCE. These religiofacist halfwits like the ones mentioned in this article and the Christians United for Israel people are frightened little mental midgets. They are incurable, and it really doesn't matter what you do with them, except kill them, they'll never understand nor respond rationally. They are as mindless of ideologues as any Muslim or Jew. They are the sick in human society. not unlike gangrene, or cancer. Such medical conditions usually require surgical therapy. These will too. Rocks are plenty and cheap, well, so are bullets. If these people ever make a play, clearly they haven't the mental wherewithall to win. The only thing this sad wretched country needs is for its population to get off their dead asses and simply put a definitive end to the sort of people that currently comprise the rogue regime in Washington and the religious perverts. Falwell, Robertson, and Hagee, and all like them are terrorists. They "feed" off the fear of their simple minded followers. But terrorism only works on mental defectives. Further, these fat leeches can be killed in less time than it takes to draw a breath. Let them come, I say. Then we can get to work in exterminating them. I suppose the damnable misery of this is that technology has far surpassed the maturity of humankind. But if you consider that at least at this point in time in human evolution, humankind stands on the very precipice of extinction. If we, as a species, become extinct, it will be for the same reason all other species that have gone before us. Failure to adapt.

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» RE: tedbohne Posted by: kenhymes
» What would Jesus capitalize? Posted by: doctorsquared
More info on this topic
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Aug 15, 2006 12:50 PM   
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There's two more excellent articles on the topic of the extreme right wing on linked text democracynow.org.
I highly recommend Alternet readers check it out!

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The Religeous Right
Posted by: magistre on Aug 15, 2006 1:59 PM   
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Is there any wonder that the 20th century predecessars of these fascists supplied both money and direction to a young Adolf Hitler? World War 2 was orchestrated by these zealots. It is probably too late to stop their "progress" in this country but it would sure be nice if people started taking this threat as serious before we all become "Good Germans"!

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How did these lunatics get so much power?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 15, 2006 2:40 PM   
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I think that the answer is that wealthy industrialists have been pouring money into the most virulent and radical right-wing Christian groups (American Life League, Focus on the Family, the 700 Club, etc.), at the same time as they have been providing multimillion-dollar grants to corporate apologist think thanks (the Competetive Enterprise Institute, American Heritage Foundation, and so on) - that's why you'll hear the brainwashed religious types claim that 'there is no such thing as global warming', and also why there are no sermons on environmental pollution or corporate crime in the mega-churches.

George Lakoff wrote a very good book that anyone interested in today's politics has to read - an expose based on cognitive psychology that reveals how social conservatives and their wealthy industrial sponsors have created proto-fascist organizations all across the United States. The book is "Don't Think of an Elephant: Know Your Values, Frame the Debate (2004)" and you can learn more at http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/people/lakoff.

That's only the source - who is it that spreads this around? Who is it that controls the TV, the radio and the newspapers? Who is the bullhorn for the bull? Answer: the corporate media. It needs to be emphasized that most of the corporate media outlets are pandering to these whackos - how about that Daily Show coverage of Good Morning America's segment on "Is this a Sign of End Times?" at the outset of the Israeli assault on Lebanon (which, incidentally, benefited noone but the arms dealers). The coporate media, with some important exceptions, is one of the greatest enemies of American democracy that exists today - I'm far more concerned about their hidden agendas than I am about those of the religious fruitcakes.

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Everybody must get stoned
Posted by: veive on Aug 15, 2006 4:12 PM   
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Well, they'll stone ya when you're trying to be so good,

They'll stone ya just a-like they said they would.

They'll stone ya when you're tryin to go home.

Then they'll stone ya when you're there all alone.

But I would not feel so all alone,

Everybody must get stoned.

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» RE: verybody must get stoned Posted by: willymack
» Let's All Get Stoned Posted by: sirossisofliver
Well, not all "Christian" loonies can always keep at it. Kaine of VA won over Kilgore even in the
Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 15, 2006 4:18 PM   
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most GOP areas like Jerry Fartwell's Lynchburg, VA and Pat Robertson's Virginia Beach, VA. And it's not centrism that brought Kaine to victory as he was forced to drop it if he had any chance of fighting KILgore, the darling of the "religious right". I think there is a wonderful opportunity for Democrats to pick a better pattern and stop pandering to the "right" and like a previous poster noted, George Lakoff's works and site in addition to those of David Sirota and Thomas Frank are the keys to putting the wacko "Christian" flames out. Note the quotes. I'm a white male Christian but I obviously do not in any way consider the lunatics tooting the horns and bastardizing religion to total desecration as anywhere close to real Christians.

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The Sky Is Falling
Posted by: rileycase on Aug 15, 2006 6:16 PM   
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I know maybe 500 "fundamentalists" and probably 3,000 evangelicals. Not one of these takes Gary North with any seriousness. Only Alternet types do that, with hysterical reaction that matches Chicken Little's the Sky Is Falling. The jump from Gary North to Roy Moore to the South Dakota legislature to James Dobson to home schoolers suggests paranoia. Sentences like "no less rigid and bloodthirsty than Taliban's mullahs" is not a very convincing way to win friends to "progessive" thinking.

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» RE: The Sky Is Falling Posted by: tclaverdure
» !!! Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Church of the Vast Congregation
Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Aug 16, 2006 9:12 AM   
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Shopping - Internet Cafe - Sports Spa - Child Care - Worship

Five Acres of Parking!

Your One-Stop Soul Shop!

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» RE: You forgot the beauty salon...:P Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
America was founded by nuts! The country is based on wacko-ism!
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Aug 16, 2006 6:35 PM   
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Any surprise here. Remember back to your elementary school civics and history classes. America was founded by religious crazies. Its 100% American to be a religous nut worried about the coming armaggedon. Think back. Some whole States were founded on messianc, insanity (Mass Bay Colony, Rhode Island, and later Utah.) Then later you have crazed fundamentalists like John Brown (though the cause was good.) Then you have mental religious fundamentalists as PRESIDENT: like Carter (I sinned of lust in my heart by looking at a woman) and Bush (I can see into Putin's soul.) Then you got your minority nut-jobs (Farrakan: there is a ship in the sky and white people and jews are aliens). Your real forefathers weren't George Washington-type elites but the crazed, fundamentalist Puritans, Quakers, Dutch Reformer Church types, Mormonites, Amish, Mennonites, etc. etc. etc. Koresh is more "American" then Ben Franklin.

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Christianity is not the issue, Totalitarianism and worse is
Posted by: freedem on Aug 16, 2006 7:06 PM   
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There are mostly fine Christians, people who (as long as you didn't threaten them in mind or body) would be wonderful people, as appalled as anyone if they were confronted with the horrors intended by some, who would commit massive evil, using both the politics and religion they believe to be benign.

To point out such folk is to threaten them, in mind at least, and to place yourself among the "other", and thus gain attributes, like loving Osama, or maybe even gays, or (in some circles) blacks, or any of the "others" they fear, and do not think of as actual people similar to themselves.

The problem is that the same blindness exists in all groups. Even in the Kmer-Rouge, few followers actually expected or wished for, the murderous madness that followed their "victory".

But the pastoral fantasy, and the mass murder it implies can rise in any ideology, or religion, and needs to be conflated and rooted out in every case it rises.

Osama, North, Moon, Kahanists, all have agendas that are indistinguishable, but for the details of book and names they call things. It is all to easy to point out one of these hiding among a group of "others", and all to difficult to root out the ones among your own.

But it is only there that they can be successfully attacked, otherwise they become "Martyrs" if killed, or "Defenders of the Faith" and brave "leaders" if they survive or dodge danger. Just as is happening in spades in the mideast.

When they begin to justify dishonorable means to a utopian end, and God would approve, you must stomp them out with the horror of a roach crawling up your leg.

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Stop whining and get prepared!
Posted by: Rev. Judy on Aug 17, 2006 2:46 PM   
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Yes there are many people in the religious right who want to revert back to the Old Testament. No duh.
The important thing is to develop our stratgegy fast. First find out who these people are and then we can play on their weaknesses, and there are many.

Read: Devil's Game by Robert Dreyfuss and Conservatives Without Conscience by John W. Dean.

Devil's Game: The US has been funding fundamentalist Muslims for 50 years, including the Muslim Brotherhood, in order to have an army of "true believers" who will do anything they are told to do by their cleric. Now this administration is funding Christian clerics for the same reason; to have an army of "true believers" who will do anything they are told.

Conservatives Without Conscience: The neocons are authoritarians. This book studies the authoritarian psychology and gives a history of conservatives in this country and how they have been transformed from honest believers in conservatism to this current bunch of neo fascists.

We have too much work to do to continue complaining and discussing what is happening. They are armed, they are willing to kill, lie, and force their will on the whole world. They make the Nazis look like Sunday school teachers.

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liberals are incorrect
Posted by: liberalhater7 on Aug 19, 2006 7:46 PM   
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I am a thirteen year old kid and realized all liberals are stupid. You should be backing a president in a time of war, what you would be saying if it was Clinton in this position. What has Bush done wrong, he's liberated the Iraqis, took saddam Hussein out of power, taken down terrorist leaders. You’re completely blinded by what the media says, and your hatred for Bush amazes me. We are at war, of course there is going to be military casualties, and civilian casualties. But the casualties are at such a minimum it makes me laugh. 2,000 are hardly any deaths, even though every soldier’s life is valued and important. is making it like our whole army is being taken down, like the casualties are in the 10,000s. I don't think any of you realize what we are doing in Iraq. We are looking for weapons of mass destruction, which every intelligence agency in the world reported were in iraq. Were taking down a terrorist agency that has flown a plane in the one of the world’s largest buildingds.

Its time we cut the crap in saying oh yeah Geogre Bush wanted to go into Iraq for the oil, oh yeah Geogre Bush did 911. You are all ignorant, and listen to the first video or article that tells you anything about Bush.Liberals are just using the deaths to get us out of Iraq anyway, they really don't care. George Bush is the one who is meeting with the soldier's familys not kerry, not Clinton who are all fools. Also socialism is tearing our country apart.

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» RE: keep your options open Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: keep your options open Posted by: foxylady
» LMAO Posted by: dr_bognus
» RE: liberals are incorrect Posted by: srqwolf
» RE: liberals are incorrect Posted by: foxylady
» RE: liberals are incorrect Posted by: mdruss42
Taliban, Third Reich, Reconstructionists, extreemists
Posted by: Wildflower on Aug 28, 2006 5:25 PM   
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The real problem here is to disregard the Reconstructionists as a fringe group. That is how we get entrapped "without even knowing it". Do you really think that all the German people were in favor of the holocost. Nope - if they new that is what Hitler was aiming for he would not have been elected.

If we knew that George Bush would forget the dismantling of Al Quaeda and the capture of Osama Bin Laden in favor of invading Iraq... would you really have voted for him? I doubt it. I am certain that you, like me, would prefer our tax dollars to be aimed at fixing the medical system, the public education system, the diplomacy we had with all the other countries upon who we rely. We would not really choose to have China - the leading buyer of our T-bills, holding our debt. Nope, we would not have voted the way we did "if only we had known".

In short, it is what is not said that is so critical to our long term democracy. It is looking beneath the covers to find out what a person really represents when we vote for him or her. It is not the mud-slinging or lying that goes on... it is discovering what a person truly believes by looking further than the media. Otherwise, we run the risk of having a theocracy comparable to that of the third reich and the taliban in terms of its brutality

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RE stoning
Posted by: beepbeepitsme on Dec 19, 2006 12:52 AM   
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"Everybody Must Get Stoned"
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/

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