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Six Lessons from the London Airline Bombing Plot

By John Tirman, AlterNet. Posted August 12, 2006.


The foiled bomb plot in the UK offers us and the Bush administration some pointers about the true nature of terrorism and its causes.
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Six Lessons from the London Airline Bombing Plot

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What we now know about the London-based plot to destroy ten civilian airplanes points to six conclusions. 

First, what stopped this plot was law enforcement.  Law enforcement.  Not a military invasion of Pakistan, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, or Iraq.  Old-fashioned surveillance, development of human sources, putting pieces together, and cooperation with foreign police and intelligence services. 

Second, the conspiracy — if it resembles the London bombings of last summer — will likely be home-grown, another of the growing jihad "fashion" in Europe that comprises the new street gangs of this world.  It is not a religious movement, it is not fundamentalism. These are thin veneers. It is at root sheer violence undertaken by young men resentful of many things (not least the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Lebanon) and ready to kill in return.  Under different cirucmstances, it could be Tamils or Red Brigades or Michigan Militiamen, and has been. 

Third, if al Qaeda was involved (allegedly from Pakistan), we can thank the failure of the war in Afghanistan and the cozying up to Musharraf to destroy them. 

Fourth, there was no involvement by any American-based “cells,” according the FBI Director Robert Mueller.  As many of us have been saying for nearly five years, and as the 9/11 Commission Report showed, there is virtually no plausible American jihad organization at work, and never has been. 

Fifth, the plot again reveals how ill-equipped the U.S. Government has been in anticipating plausible attack scenarios and taking steps to prevent them.  Liquid bombs were so hard to figure out? Al Qaeda already tried it.  DHS has almost completely missed the threat, just as they are missing the vulnerability of cargo holds and God knows what else. Thomas Kean, the former GOP governor and co-chair of the 9/11 Commission, called this liquid bomb error “appalling” and wondered, on an NBC program four months ago, why no progress had been made.  What are the tens of billions being spent on?  This is Katrina II.

Sixth, and most important, we must end our involvement in Iraq and sharply refocus our presence in the region.  The war president’s approach is not working.  It’s a diversion from the real threat.  It’s a spur to bitter revenge.  It’s a big feedback loop that will endanger us for years, if not decades.  Our lives are now at stake because the Bush catastrophe has created thousands of new terrorists. 

Naturally, the politically expedient are trying to gain an edge.  Defeated Senator Joseph Lieberman immediately attacked his victorious primary challenger Ned Lamont, saying that Lamont’s leave Iraq policy is somehow connected to this.  It’s the opposite — the war distracts and inflames.  We will see the crowing from the Bushies now, when in fact they were again asleep at the wheel, only this time the Brits saved the day.  The war v. law enforcement contrast — remember how John Kerry was ridiculed by Cheney for uggesting that aggressive police work and human intelligence were anti-terror linchpins? — is now buried by conflating the “war against terror” in Iraq with this Scotland Yard and MI5 success.

Reversing America’s colossally destructive series of interventions in the Middle East — a cause, a trigger, a recruitment fountain, and a charity for jihad — will require an entirely different mindset, not just an adjustment or a measured retreat.  When America responded, after being prodded, to the tsunami victims in Indonesia early last year, it profoundly changed Indonesians’ views of the United States.  New attitudes of support and cooperation suddenly sprang forth.  This “natural experiment” should be examined to learn from, possibly to emulate, in the Persian Gulf and elsewhere. 

We’re now viewed as destroyers, and destruction is the retort.  This is the “new Middle East” that is aborning — one of relentless violence — if we do not end our own relentless violence there.  The would-be bombers in London are a reminder of how close it is. 

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John Tirman is Executive Director of MIT's Center for International Studies. His most recent book is 100 Ways America Is Screwing Up the World (Harper Perennial, 2006).

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Someone, please help me understand...
Posted by: Sapphite on Aug 12, 2006 12:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
9/11 = 1 arrest
9/11 = 1 conviction
9/11 - almost 5 years ago

7/21/2005 London Transport System bombing
7/29/2005 - 4 suspects arrested
8/8/2005 - Charges brought against 4 suspects

The liquid bomb plot... 24 arrested before... yes, before it happened. And liquid bombs have been a known threat for years!
Who benefits? Always ask, who benefits.

And remember, we had plenty of warnings... the administration didn't listen... maybe heard, but didn't listen.

The numbers just don't add up, if the USA is the best of the best, and all.

(One more thing, have you ever noticed what is *announced* on Friday? Just note the day of the week. Less people listen on Fridays. Pay attention, you might be surprised, alarmed or perhaps, resigned.)

What was left in Pandora's box?

Sapphite

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» To Pau and Knowmad Posted by: aonghus36
» Ignore "Coldeye" Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Ignore "Coldeye" Posted by: dcr386az
» RE: Ignore "Coldeye" Posted by: aonghus36
reality
Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 12, 2006 4:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More reality to counter the fascistic propaganda from the Bushies. So far from being the best of the best, reality shows the Bushies to be the worst of the worst. Replace these incompetant goof-offs with an administration that has enough affinity with reality to be able to actually reduce terrorism rather than actually increase it. Make America good rather than greedy disaster creators like the Bushies are doing.

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» the fascists need terrorism. Posted by: Annapurna1
BEWARE: HACK ATTACK
Posted by: shangrilalad on Aug 12, 2006 4:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
BEWARE: FASCISTS HAVE HACKED SEVERAL LIBERAL WEBSITES TO DISRUPT OUR FREE FLOW OF COMMUNICATION AND TO HACK ATTACK INDIVIDUALS WHO POST THERE.

I'VE JUST BEEN HACKED!

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» RE: BEWARE: HACK ATTACK Posted by: Bulldog
» RE: BEWARE: HACK ATTACK Posted by: shangrilalad
» The Real Deal Posted by: coldeye
» Alterland - where nonsense makes sense! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Look Under Your Bed Posted by: coldeye
» RE: Look Under Your Bed Posted by: shangrilalad
» RE: Look Under Your Bed Posted by: yellow
» Afghan poppy crop Posted by: zipper696
For the record
Posted by: pixiequix on Aug 12, 2006 4:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The London bombings of 7/7 had direct association with the British intelligence agency MI5.

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» RE: For the record Posted by: coldeye
» RE: For the record Posted by: DoctorAndy
» RE: For the record Posted by: Conservasaurus
Is this believable?
Posted by: mpulier on Aug 12, 2006 4:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is it credible that the government suddenly "woke up" and is suddenly banning liquids and gels from hand luggage in order to neutralize what turns out to have been an obvious and longstanding threat to the "homeland"? The airport security checks have always been full of holes, unable, say, to keep one from sneaking in quarts of gasoline in water bottles or handfuls of explosive in swallowed condoms. Could it be that the charade of inspections at the end of those annoying long lines is actually intended merely to reassure? Or could it be that this expensive ritual is actually intended to train the public into acquiescing to a whittling away of its civil rights and to enhance its submission to authoritarianism? Are we being led into a "1984"-like scheme where a malevolent government hoodwinks its citizenry into believing we are fighting what are actually imaginary enemies? It's hard to have confidence in the governments response to the latest allegedly aborted terrorist plot.

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» RE: Is this believable? Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Is this believable? Posted by: Cathyc
Well, even MSN news notes there are discrepancies in this newest.....
Posted by: Prophit on Aug 12, 2006 5:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.... so called terrorist plan that was interrupted. Lets take a look at this "liquid" bomb they were going to make. This is only one of many such descrepancies that surprisingly even the mainstream press is beginning to talk about. (These comments below were from a poster on AN and its revealing with good links).

MSM: "The plotters reportedly planned to smuggle chemicals aboard flights by hiding them in everyday items such as beverage containers, then assemble them into an explosive mixture and ignite or detonate them using common electronic devices, investigators said." (24 Are Arrested in Alleged Plot Against U.S.-Bound Planes By Peter Spiegel, Josh Meyer and Janet Stobart, Times Staff Writers for the LATimes 7:49 PM PDT, August 10, 2006, (don't forget to cut and paste the link)

http://www.latimes.com/news/

nationworld/world/la-na-terror11aug11,0,

5036288.story?coll=la-home-headlines)

If it was supposedly TCAP, they couldn't possibly have done it on a 6~7 hour flight from Heathrow and have it ready to detonate over the Mid-Atlantic. Having looked up the formula, given some of the constituents, I doubt that the average beverage container would have held up.

www.officer.com :

"The entire procedure to produce the amount of material needed for a bomb takes as little as a day and a half." (TATP--The Terrorist's Choice: The Mother of Satan explosive is with us. Updated: June 5th, 2006 11:01 PM EDT, DR. DOUG HANSON, Forensics, Contributor, Officer.com)

"Once made, TATP is a white crystalline solid material which is filtered and then dried at room temperature. The crystalline material is extremely friction-sensitive and must be handled with great care. An accidental shock, heat from a nearby cigarette, or screwing on a bottle cap with trace material caught in the threads all have the potential to ignite the material." (www.officer.com)

Now if they decided to make it ahead of time and NOT mix it up on the plane as the MSM alleges, they still have the problem of storing it and hoping they don't jostle it before they get on the plane.

MSM: The capacitor from a disposable camera was to be used to set off the bomb or a blasting cap was to be smuggled onboard.

"TATP can be detonated simply using friction or impact, while most nitrogen-based explosives require a detonator like a blasting cap. TATP is extremely unstable, and while it can be made at room temperature, the heat given off in the chemical reaction to form the product can be enough to set off the material. That is the reason that the reaction is carried out on ice and must be kept below 50°F." (www.officer.com)

So, if it was supposed to have happened as the MSM reports, then they would have to be asking the flight attenedents for LOTS AND LOTS of ice. And possibly a bus tray for a ice bath. I can see that happening in the cabin.

All this is based on the supposition that they were going to use TATP. I haven't heard any other specifics, so it might be different given another explosive composition.

Finally, I have to say that I no longer believe anything I read or hear about terrorist attacks and potential attacks. As I say in my signature line on my emails "I am not paranoid....... just well adjusted to my environment"! LOL

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» coldeye: Dupe or Tool? Posted by: k9disc
» RE: The Islamists hate Secular Liberals Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» Happy World Posted by: coldeye
» All of the above Posted by: SDzeit
Michael Townes Watson
Posted by: michaeltwatson on Aug 12, 2006 5:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Weeks before September 11th, this is going to play big," said a White House official, When speaking of the political effect of the foiling of the London airplane bombers. He added that some Democratic candidates won't "look as appealing" under the circumstances.

Why is it the Republicans blame the Democrats for politicizing the debate about the war on terror? They know that the biggest criticism is the Iraq war, which 60% of the country believes we are wrongly in. NO Democrat has said that we should stop any other part of the war on terror. They only say that we should start doing more. That is, take the manpower, machinery, technology, intuition, emotion and money from Iraq and use it where it matters. It clearly no longer matters in Iraq.

Criticizing Democrats for “waving the white flag” is like claiming Muhammed Ali should have stayed in front of Joe Frazier and taken a pounding, rather than “float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.” We claim to have the greatest intelligence capabilities in the world. Intelligence is what stopped the London airplane terrorists, not brute force and torture techniques. Congress (including Democrats) is willing to give the President, with only the need for a search warrant retroactively issued by a court, any intelligence necessary to go after the terrorists. All the Republican war on terror has done in Iraq is to make more terrorists and make the job more difficult. Let’s start to float and sting, like the British. How many troops is it that they have in Iraq?
Michael Townes Watson, author of America's Tunnel Vision--How Insurance Companies' Propaganda Is Corrupting Medicine and Law. www.AmericasTunnelVision.com

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» browneye, you're an irritant Posted by: sausage
Another "Terror Plot"
Posted by: rwa on Aug 12, 2006 7:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The latest "terror plot"
Eli Stephens, Left I on the News

August 11, 2006

There isn't enough information yet to know if the latest "terror plot" was a real one, or yet another agent provocateur -induced, hyped-up phony. I just want to focus on one detail of the hype, which I have heard from several sources, because it comes straight from the U.K. police so it's being widely repeated:

UK police said they could have caused "mass murder on an unimaginable scale".
"Unimaginable"? Really? Blowing up nine planes is truly horrific, but the dead might total, what, 2000-3000? That's about the number that were killed in Iraq in just the last month, and pales before the number of Iraqis that have died since the U.S./British invasion. It's not that much more than have already died in the latest Israeli assault on Lebanon. It's around the same number as U.S. troops who have died in Iraq. And it's less than the number who died on Sept. 11, 2001.

Unimaginable? Sadly, all too imaginable. What's truly unimaginable to me is the destruction that Israel is currently visiting upon Lebanon. But sadly in that case, I don't have to imagine anything. All I have to do is keep my eyes open.

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» RE: Another "Terror Plot" Posted by: redjenny
» RE: Another "Terror Plot" Posted by: spanky
In-Flight Explosives Manufacturing a Joke
Posted by: pelle_in_goal on Aug 12, 2006 7:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm no expert in chemical engineering but Prophit is right on the money. Most of the explosive chemical mixtures advanced by the US/UK propaganda mills are laughable and belong in a "Get Smart" episode.

The idiots of ISI (Pakistani Secret Police) and MI-5 have introduced a "paste" (polymer) esplosive scenario because it's harder to disprove and unravel than their previous "theories." In reality, making a cocktail from liquid form would almost certainly involve 1) giving off an unusual odor, 2) producing heat, gas bubbles, and/or corrosion in the mixing vessel, and 3) yet somehow -- when mixed with a gel or another inert "fixament" -- suddenly become stable again. Stable enough to be exploded at a time of the mixers' choosing since it is exploded by electric charge.

Nearly all gelatin-based fixaments melt -- not cohese -- when mixed in chemical reactions and give off heat. This almost certainly means producing gas bubbles in the mixture. That should make the temperature in an explosive admixture rise even further. Ergo, "goo" is not the same thing as "paste" by explosive manufacturing standards.

I've seen everything from hydrazine to thermite to TNT being proposed as either an ingredient or result of some on-board chemistry cooking class. Hydrazine is one of the most corrosive chemicals on earth. Any kind of airborne thermite explosive manufacture is a joke.

Liquid explosive manufacturing is being presented by the MSM as either some fait accompli or a moronic variation of "all you need to do is make 'a' mix with 'b.' The truth is, for terrorist applications, the work is far more complicated and nearly impossible to conceal.

The closest liquid explosive to the "b" scenario is nitromethane -- best known for its use in auto racing. Technically, it can be used in the aircraft explosion scenarios being revealed by the UK authorities.

But...

...one problem with nitromethane is mixing it making it explode at all. The substance is oxygen-poor (but so is TNT) and it would need to be mixed with not only a polymer-making substance(s) but an oxidizer. Ammonium nitrate was used as an admixture by Timothy McVeigh et. al. in the truck explosion at the Federal Building in OK City. I.E., fertilizer.

But on-board a moving aircraft "fertilizer" is about all you'd get. Any airborne admixture of "nitrometh" and oxidizing nitrates would result in trapped gas bubbles that can make the components mix unevenly and result in a rapid rise in temperature.

Remember, this is supposed to take place in an aircraft pressurized to 8000 feet above sea level when airborne. Everything liquid, gel or admixture will boil at a lower temperature than on the ground. As it is, to become an effective explosive, nitromethane explosives have to be kept stable by keeping the components pressurized in the process until a polymer is formed.

My guess is -- and this is giving the British authorities credit that they don't really deserve -- is that some kind of bomb plot was interrupted. But it was a plot interrrupted during the manufacturing of a solid explosive to be set off only after being smuggled on-board. Otherwise, too much is left to chance if the mixture is supposed to be set off with a mercury blasting cap. The Home Office just jazzed it up their nick a little so "Yo' Tony" could enjoy a vacation while British planes blew up over the Atlantic.

And we're left to lap it all up.

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» More On Nitromethane Posted by: pelle_in_goal
» Why aren't you on CNN? Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Try It, You'll Like It Posted by: coldeye
Armageddon on 8/22?
Posted by: ranting redhead on Aug 12, 2006 8:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a question:
Glenn Beck on CNN and other conservative sites/blogs are running with this story: "Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton Bernard Lewis warns that Iran’s Islamic end of times prophecy could be fulfilled as early as 22 August. This date relates to the sacred Islamic date of Rajab 28, which is the date that Saladin entered and conquered Jerusalem." http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/16862.html
There's rampant speculation that Iran is going to attack Israel that day or do something else extreme to hasten the return of the "hidden imam." The London plot--assuming it's real for the moment--was that connected to any of this?
So what's going on here? Why are supposedly "mainstream" media such as CNN feeding this "end times" and "world war III" hysteria? They're planning a whole day of "Target America" coverage for next week, just to corner the market on fear-mongering. And does anybody know if this August 22nd thing is just Bernard Lewis being wacky or do more balanced analysts give this argument any credence?

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Dr.
Posted by: DoctorAndy on Aug 12, 2006 8:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only ones that believe this Orwellian terrorism are MSM talking heads and talk show hosts!

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» Tear Down the Screeners Posted by: coldeye
» RE: Tear Down the Screeners Posted by: DoctorAndy
mr truth
Posted by: bibisad on Aug 12, 2006 8:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are the only threat. The USA/pentagon are behind the terror. We created the so called "terrorists" by our diobolical, illegal, immoral policies.

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Lies more lies.
Posted by: sonex on Aug 12, 2006 9:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a joke, under suveillance for more than a year and they thighten security at airports AFTER the ''terrorist'' are arrested. How convenient this is for the neocons with lebanon and election coming in november. The real terrorist is the media, 911 was an inside job, and these fake terrorist plots are just to prepare us mentally for the next 911, Iran will be blamed for that one to start WWlll, it's all spelled out for you in the neocon's PNAC document, wake up !

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» RE: Lies more lies. Posted by: sonex
» madness,more madness Posted by: coldeye
» RE: madness,more madness Posted by: sonex
» RE: madness,more madness Posted by: coldeye
» RE: madness,more madness Posted by: sonex
» RE: madness,more madness Posted by: opensaysamy
» RE: bin-Laden was NOT a CIA asset Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: Lies more lies. Posted by: DoctorAndy
One Lesson about the London terror attempt.
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Aug 12, 2006 9:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Terror in London:
What has it accomplished and who benefits?

The accomplishment is to put people in fear as to not question those in power and the media.

The benefactors continue to be leaders in power, multinational banks and corporations, and the military-industrial complex.

The purpose IMO looks like an attempt knock down detractors and people that question the Global War On Terror as a euphemism for the war on people's freedoms, liberties and the pursuit of happiness. Several laws have been pushed by both the US and UK to push freedom of the press and whistle blowers against the wall to the point of being tried by military tribunal.

An interesting point is that the terror plot was exploited with a delay in it's timing to benefit the Bush administration. The Wayne Madsen Report at http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/ Aug. 11, 2006 -- UPDATED has an additional point in that it may be the joint effort of both the political and media elements to keep people in fear, allowing those in power to continue their illegal acts, (jumping around and over laws by decrees), whatever those may be.

By all appearances, the war is for the control of energy in the middle east. War profits banks, corporations and the military-industrial complex as well as those in power. It not only continues to move money into the hand of an ever shrinking few, but adds to their power as well. Many in the halls of Congress, Parliament and other leadership positions rotate in the revolving door of the corporate and banking elite, think tanks creating policy, special interest lobbyists and the military industrial complex. Isn't Blair to take a position within the Carlyle Group? Many congressmen have become high paid lobbyists, board members or executives of military-industrial corporations (which could not exist without military contracts), or large banking or corporate interests that want access to regions they don't have such as Iraq, Iran or Venezuela.

Neo-fascists of Leo Strauss have fabricated our history and turned most all of us into non-thinking clones of nationalism. The MSM is the device that has turned a thinking people of America into a passive people that fall in line at the say so of those that create the policy of corporatism that existed in the guilded age, but is far more deceptive and criminally active. Without a doubt, anyone that knows that Bush is trying to RETROACTIVELY change the laws of which America War Criminals are tried for war crimes would know this. Neo-cons are not conservatives. The creators of PNAC need to be corraled and put in front of a grand jury about their activities behind the Afghan and Iraq wars. The people that are cheerleading for the US to enter into a WW III are beyond sick and should be seen as the amoral people they really are in pushing for something so brutal as a World War. Think about it, who in their right mind would push for a pre-emptive world war without cause or justification.

"Fascism should rather be called corporatism, as it is the merging of government and corporate power."

--Benito Mussolini

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» Heil Bill Posted by: coldeye
» RE: Heil Bill Posted by: opensaysamy
It is fundamentalism
Posted by: jyongue@iag.net on Aug 12, 2006 10:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with most of your article; however, when you say " It is not a religious movement, it is not fundamentalism" I take exception. These are suicide bombers; there are no atheist suicide bombers--this takes a certified god-believer aka a fundamentalist.

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» RE: It is fundamentalism Posted by: sonex
» RE: It is fundamentalism Posted by: ReallyBearish
I Found something Shocking About The Chemical 'TATP"
Posted by: Sleepingcobra1 on Aug 12, 2006 10:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Was this chemical not found involving the latest incident in the UK where the plot was spoiled? In an earlier poster someone mentiones about "TATP Activities". I want you to notice the date of the post compared to the date of the arests of the UK suspects which i think was on August 10, 2006. Please go to http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=206108 and read the first post of the guy named "Caplock50" He quoted and i will paste it here:
The Texas City incident where bombs and bomb making chemicals were blown 'in place' in that apartment complex. Mid-eastern names were associated with it, but it was said to just be some 'week end fun' projects. Now the explosives found was TATP, the type that terrorists like to use in suicide vests. And these guys worked for a company that cleaned out oil storage tanks in the Houston/Texas City area. This info was all posted here, and, going by it, you can understand why I feel this is a terrorist 'sleeper cell' that got busted by a premature detonation of one of their 'toys'. Oh, and this happened about a week ago now. now here is the date of the post made by "Caplock50": 07-30-2006, 10:48 AM
Can someone help me out here please.

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No plausible American jihad operation?
Posted by: coldeye on Aug 12, 2006 11:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The denial by a small segment of the US left of any plausible threat from Islamic fascists is incredible. Surely there are psychological reasons pertinent to these deniers. Holocaust deniers come to mind.

The desperate tone of posters who will accept any hysterical hypothesis other than the evident to explain exposed Isalmist plots reveals the literal madness that grips this minigroup.

As for the non-existence of our home grown Islamists who have links to Al Queda and other such mythical groups, the Department of Justice(you know, it's run by Gonzalez so of course you can deny this too) has just published a document that summarizes the over 30 major cases involving domestic Islamist conspiracies and crimes that resulted in convicitons since 9/11.

Released 6/23/06, it may be accessed on the doj website.

www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2006/June/06_crm_389.html

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» What ails you? Posted by: Conservasaurus
oh my god a bomb
Posted by: john henry on Aug 12, 2006 12:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
home land sec. is make a killing at the tax payer exspenice an making some body very rich an helping us as law abodying people to like a few took an put us under county assrets an wait the travle paper will be comeing an then the check points ever 10 miles that if you can get the gas to go that far now the bomb the compounds are not there if in a lab. this maybe can be done but on a plane no but it good there were captured there so now the gov. an our gov. can get on the same page of takeing away from us in rights an money donot worry in the good book it talks about this an at some point in time we should come back for the just an right for all not for just a few power gods

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» You need a vacation Posted by: coldeye
scribbler
Posted by: scribbler on Aug 12, 2006 12:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I worked in the World Trade Center and never wanted our response to the attacks to be cowboy revenge bombing and terrorizing American Muslims and South Asians. Many American Muslims went to Special Registration thinking they would be invited to help root out any terrorists, not chained on the 10th floor of a federal building because they forgot to report a change of address (what terrorist would have lined up for 10 hours in the freezing cold without perfect papers?!)

We still have a choice between frightened knee-jerk violence and political action to force our politicians and energy companies to listen to the pleas of moderates from the Mideast to stop supporting their dictators. We could have helped the Iraqis overthrow Saddam by themselves if we didn't want to control oil resources.

I don't know how America can ever make amends for the many innocents who have died as a result of our actions and decisions or the destruction to cities and towns by our bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq, and by our silence those first 4+ weeks, in Lebanon. We've stopped our redeemable attempts to treat people around the world fairly within local or international law us redeemable.

All I can think of is a strong affective Clintonesque leader who can become president, apologize to the world, set up a South African style Commission of Reconciliation thru the UN or some organization representing people's grievances not just nations', and a Marshall plan to rebuilt Afghanistan (as promised 5 years ago), Iraq and Lebanon and whoever else is on the future list... Latin American countries that dare differ with us?

I've been so horrified by the news in Lebanon and Iraq (where more people were killed there than in Lebanon and Haifa during the first 2 weeks of that murder rage) that I was hardly upset about the aborted tragedy that might have become a new 5th anniversary blood-letting called 8/11 - and I take terrorism very seriously because I had worked in the World Trade Center, 101-105 floors daily for more than a year until the spring of 2001 and could have died with my 200+ colleagues, floor guards, maintenance crew and cafeteria workers. But hey, a new 8/11 on 9 passenger jets would have killed another 3000 human beings. Our actions, directly or indirectly, still kill about 100 Iraqis and 2 US soldiers each week, with total of more than 100,000 Iraqi mothers, fathers, children dead and more maimed. Pro-war Americans are no different than any other terrorists who cannot control their emotions when they feel wronged, and whose only reaction is to lash out with violence when they feel they are the victims, like 4 year olds, all of them certain they are justified in killing their God's creations. Each victim feeling self-righteous and enraptured as they murder thousands of innocents in their revenge rampage called a pre-emptive military campaign.

One positive development from all of this - students fleeing bombardment with their cell phone video cameras running then giving the footage to CNN. News medias promptly had to get into the chaos so they would have equally good or better coverage than non-professional teens and 20-somethings. Now one of their constant crawls invites people to send in home video of news events. That's a step towards media power to the people.

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» "Dancing in the street" Posted by: Conservasaurus
the joke’s on us
Posted by: shangrilalad on Aug 12, 2006 5:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Back in the old days Americans were concerned with a concept called unsportsman like conduct, and dirty players were derided. How you played the game was more important than winning, but nowadays winning by any and all means is accepted. The old concept cut across every aspect of our culture and defined us as a people. Now the abandonment of this concept also defines us as a people.

The commercialization of sports undermined the old concept and replaced it with a new Republican bottom-line concept. Winning and profit was said to be all that mattered, and soon the new concept infected every aspect of our lives and culture. It spread from sports to business, to politics and even religion. From bike racers to repairmen, from Bill Frist, to Ralph Reed.

Fair play and honor are now considered a joke and laughably quaint, strictly for chumps. Nowhere is this more apparent than in politics. For decades our corporate media has sniggeringly dismissed rigged elections as merely “Dirty Tricks.”

What have we gained and what have we lost?

As one of the chumps, I think the joke’s on us.

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» RE: the joke’s on us Posted by: deaudonnee
are you kidding?
Posted by: Jesse Cristo on Aug 12, 2006 7:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You really can't be serious when you say

"It is not a religious movement, it is not fundamentalism."

What evidence do you have to support that statement?

Why would these terrorists make martyrdom videos if it had nothing to do with religion?

Al Qaeda's ideology is justified by the Koran, and it's not a new phenomenon. Islamofascist imperialism has been around since Mohammed walked the earth - history proves it.

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» RE: are you kidding? Posted by: aonghus36
Interesting questions re the alleged plot in a Guardian op-ed
Posted by: brunowe on Aug 12, 2006 7:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read it here

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Six Responses to Tirman's Six Lessons
Posted by: rileycase on Aug 12, 2006 7:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Thanks for law enforcement. It is not the answer for every problem. It did not stop Pearl Harbor, Hitler, nor the Civil War.
2. This is indeed about religion. It is about bad religion as a matter of fact. Self-serving gangsters don't commit suicide just in order to kill others. Nor do atheists. Nor do Christians for that matter.
3. Al Qaeda would be involved with or without Afghanistan.
4. To say there are no American terrorist cells is a head in the sand kind of statement.
5. U.S. ill-equipped for terrorist attack? Well we've not had one for five years. At the same time it is impossible to anticipate and/or guard against all the conceivable ways one can use to kill others especially if suicide is involved.
6. Oh yes, George Bush and Iraq. Every conceivable evil in the world can be traced to George Bush and Iraq. Things are much more complex. Get a life.

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» The conspiracy is a conspiracy Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The conspiracy is a conspiracy Posted by: crescentdave
» English please! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: English please! Posted by: Blix
» special Progressive language Posted by: Conservasaurus
» "no war for Monica" Posted by: Conservasaurus
» This is absolutely stupid. Posted by: sausage
» RE: Bad religion? Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Bad religion? Posted by: yellow
» RE: Bad religion? Posted by: badkitty
» RE: Bad religion? Posted by: yellow
Facts and cells
Posted by: DaBear on Aug 12, 2006 8:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for the six lessons. Thanks to one of the posters for the link to the Guardian op-ed piece reminding us of the facts at hand.

Thanks to the conservgoons who posted with their absurd afactual insistence on confabulation and prevarication posing as facts. I feel refreshed knowing that the only real American Cells are fundamentalist, Christian, and Republikaaner. Now if we can just confiscate their iPods and make sure they drink their own Kool-aid the rest of us sane, rational types can get on with life and pursue the real suspects who commit crimes against humanity.

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» Spot on Posted by: srqwolf
» One place there are no cells! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: One place there are no cells! Posted by: Conservasaurus
6 realities
Posted by: Reader11722 on Aug 12, 2006 9:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. This plot was a scam.

2. Wait a few more days and we'll find out these guys were merely out drinking, borderline mentally insane and talking nonsense.

3. Where's the suicide confession tape that Britian claims to possess?
I heard news reports about a tape but have yet to see one.

4. This was an inside job by MI-5 or Mossad or CIA or all three.

5. The timing of this is perfect with LIEberman's loss. Not too mention the mess Israel stepped into. Welcome to your own Iraq-hell, Israel. Only a fool learns every lesson by experience.

6. IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB to scare us into accepting more illegal wire-taps, further bans on free speech (banning books like "America Deceived" and caging protestors.), loss of 4th Amendment rights (illegal search and seizures), loss of 8th Amendment (torture), loss of 5th Amendment (Habeous Corpus) and loss of the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies.

Final link (don't cave Google Books and drop the title):
America Deceived - Book

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» Sometimes I'm not sure I am! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Progressives "make believes" Posted by: Conservasaurus
Hey, Coldeye and Conservasaurus!
Posted by: aonghus36 on Aug 12, 2006 9:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about that Joe Lieberman? I guess one can be a Bush supporter and a Gore loser all at the same time, huh?

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» One less liberal! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: One less liberal! Posted by: yellow
» RE: One less liberal! Posted by: Conservasaurus
COOKED “TERROR” REDUX
Posted by: Hal on Aug 13, 2006 1:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After 911 cover-up and its disastrous “war on terror” greed fest, the London bomber episode looks weedier by the minute.

The gimcrack nature of this “terror” plot smells of a bargain basement false-flag op. Another drill to rattle and cow the good little sheep. And it seems to be working – for now.

The DC-MSM poodle complex labors overtime to point fingers at rodeo clown GW Bush’s “Islamo-fascist” bogeyman. Never mind that fascism is the merger of secular state and corporate power – thus making it inapplicable to Mid East Islamic culture.

On the flipside, fascism is at the dirty core of what runs the west in a de facto corporate cartel state. One that rules from a blood money throne in sacrifice of lives and treasure for very private greed. This would be an old robber baron brand of oligarch fascism that makes an Orwellian killing spree of“democracy” and “ free market capitalism” wherever they are pumped and dumped.

Yes, there are real terrorists thanks to CIA created al-Qaeda lavishly funded by the mega-corrupt House of Saud in bed with every DC snake from Foggy Bottom to all points of brothel Washington. And let’s not forget Muslim blowback for the west imposing tyrant stooges like CIA-British installed Saddam who butchered a million of his own for Big Oil (Iraq Petroleum Co) or the Shah of Iran who foisted his CIA trained SAVAK death squads for Exxon and British Petroleum.

Are Americans fool enough to buy another DC-MSM-UK whopper? Time will tell but I wouldn’t bet on a pack of sleepwalking U.S. sheep. Not as easy as they are to herd.

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» RE: COOKED “TERROR” REDUX Posted by: Reindeer
bob
Posted by: blargin1 on Aug 13, 2006 4:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
tirman is only fooling himself. 3 axis of evil 1 now harmless to attack the rest of the civilized world. 2 to go.

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I'm less hopeful, I think we have all been enronned - start with Bush
Posted by: marklar on Aug 13, 2006 5:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where to begin. A imbecelic man born into a very wealthy family, who never demostrated anything less than cowardice and failure, with a history of brain abuse via achohol and cocaine addiction who joins a religious cult and becomes president of the USA?

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Pencils Ready?
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 13, 2006 7:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. You can not keep a Citizenry 'off balance' if everythung is going well.
2. Unless there's an attack,terrorists can't raise terror.
3. Fear is a great motivator of public opinion.
4.Mass publicity helps to increase the Fear.
5.A scraed populace is a Controlled Populace
6.If every one thinks every one else is the 'enemy',then the real Enemy of the People can walk in daylight and not be known.
O.K class the next quiz on 'World Domination by Corruption'
will take place soon,they screw up with great regularity.

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» RE: Pencils Ready? Posted by: larry278
Robert Fisk, from Beirut
Posted by: srqwolf on Aug 13, 2006 9:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why We Defeated Nazis In 5 Yrs But Not Few Hundred AlQaida
Posted by: eyeman on Aug 13, 2006 9:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Was the Nazi threat bigger than this one???
Why did the US defeat Germany, Italy and Japan in less than five years but not this threat from few hundreds or thousands?
In my humble opinion: The US administration does not want to end this threat. It is the reason they are in power. It is the excuse to invade more countries.
We have troops not only in Iraq: but in Egypt, Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, Central Asia, Afganistan, Pakistan, Ozbekistan, and more than a hundred other ountries.

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Don't shortchange fundamentalism
Posted by: crescentdave on Aug 13, 2006 9:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It also takes a special sort of fundamentalist who talks directly to God, selectively ignores CIA input, puts a decade-old invasion plan into motion while ignoring UN reports on the LACK OF WMD's.

Those are our fundamentalists. Our true believers who thought they would be greeted with flowers. Who thought it would all be over in "6 weeks to 6 months." Who KNEW there were WMD's "east, west, north and south" of Tikrit. Who BELIEVED they could (in their own published words) "install democracy" in Iraq.

Talk about whack jobs.

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How to Deal with The Lobby
Posted by: srqwolf on Aug 13, 2006 9:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excelllent article.

The De-Zionization of the American Mind

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Shouldn't "Alleged" have been part of this article's title?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 13, 2006 1:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's all it is so far - the word of the British and US governments, who have a very poor track record when it comes to telling the truth to their own people. How many lies does it take before our dear American corporate media starts asking for proof? Without concrete and independently supported evidence, I won't believe anything these two governments and their Israeli allies have to say - they've lost all credibility. Thanks to brunowe for posting the link to the Guardian op-ed piece above - it's great to see a little objective discussion of this latest 'whatever'.

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Exerpt From De-Zionization Linked Above
Posted by: rwa on Aug 13, 2006 3:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"What protects the Israel lobby is the fact that anyone who would denounce an opponent funded by the Lobby as a quasi-agent of a foreign power would immediately be accused of anti-Semitism. In fact, imagine that Big Business is unhappy with the current U.S. policies (as it well may be) and wants to change them--how could they do it? Any criticism of Lobby influence on U.S. policy would immediately trigger the anti-Zionism-is-anti-Semitism accusation.

So the strength of the Israel lobby resides in part in this second line of defense, which itself is linked to its influence on the media. But even that could easily be defeated -- not all the media are under the lobby's influence, and, more importantly, the media is not all-powerful: in Venezuela, it is anti-Chavez, but Chavez regularly wins elections. In France, the media were overwhelmingly in favour if the "yes" vote to the referendum on the European Constitution, yet the "no" won. The problem, and that is why the Israel lobby is so effective, is that it expresses a world view that is accepted too easily by too many Americans. After all, nothing could be more ridiculous than accusing someone of anti-Semitism because he wants or claims to put America's interests above those of Israel. Yet, the accusation is likely to be effective, but only because years of ideological brainwashing have predisposed people to consider U.S. and Israeli interests as identical -- although instead of "interests" one speaks of "values".

Associated with this identification comes a systematically hostile view of the Arab and Muslim world, which both increases the lobby's effectiveness and is in part the result of its propaganda. Despite all the talk about anti-racism and "political correctness", there is an almost total lack of understanding of the Arab viewpoint on Palestine, and, in particular, of the racist nature of the problem. It is this triple layer of control (selective funding, the anti-Semitism card, or rather canard, and the interiorization) that gives the lobby its peculiar strength. (And that is also why it is easy to dismiss its strength by saying, for instance, that, obviously, Jews don't control America. Sure, but direct control is not the way it works.)

People who think that it is the arms or the oil industry that are running the show in Washington as far as foreign policy is concerned, should at least answer the following question: how does it work? There is no evidence whatsoever that the oil industry, for example, pushed for the Iraq war, the threats against Iran or the attack on Lebanon . (There is a lot of evidence that the Israel lobby pushed for the Iraq war; see Jeff Blankfort, A War for Israel."

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who cares about this plot?
Posted by: rebel_pig on Aug 13, 2006 3:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
let's talk about how to raise political consciousness about how to raise taxes on the rich to pay for universal healthcare and basic research to beat cancer and heart disease.

Terrorism, numbers-wise is small potatoes. Go to the people and tell them that many more of us are dying from lack of basic healthcare and from cancer and heart disease than will ever be killed by terrorism.

But then that would change the status quo, wouldn't it? And the Rightwing and FakeLeft are both controlled top down and thus do not want to change the status quo....

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Ned Lamont says the Plot is REAL
Posted by: coldeye on Aug 13, 2006 3:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just saw Neddie on Fox News interview: Yes, they do interview liberals and it was a "soft" interview!

Neddie says we should get out of Iraq so we can focus on war on terror and gave the recent liquids plot as example of danger of Al Queda.

Coldeye says: Neddie, you are SANE, unlike most Alternet posters!

Ha Ha suckers. You wanted Neddie. You got him. He's using you. He boasted he's a fiscal conservative and a businessman. Believes terror war is real and should be FOUGHT.

Hey, Neddie is COLDEYE"S kind of guy!

Thanks suckers.

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why we beat Hitler
Posted by: coldeye on Aug 13, 2006 6:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
because most of his troops and resources were tied up fighting the Russians whose govt didn't give a shit about human rights, body armor, how many Russians were killed, how many civilians were killed or the rights of German POWS(most of whom were executed).
I have no problem adopting Stalin's methods to fight the Isamists, but you might. but maybe not?

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» Stalins methods Posted by: Swatopluk
Don't be afraid
Posted by: the poet on Aug 13, 2006 8:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe the recent london terror plot is a fake. I think it's purpose is to maintain control of the people through fear. I saw it on the news and read about it in the blogs. There is a massive lack of hard evidence, and what they do have just looks like bullshit.

Please, people, don't accept this. Our governments and media outlets are lying to us.

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Using Their Heads
Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Aug 14, 2006 2:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For once the British got something right. A plot was foiled from creating more horror in the skies by using INTELLIGENCE, not by invading a country. It was intelligence, simple law enforcement work, to thwart a threat.
See, Bush administration? No country was attacked, no army, navy or air force was needed, no cities were shocked and awed and no country was bombed back to prehistoric times. No one was crippled or wounded.
That's using your head.

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Accept Risk and Move On. No more civil rights violations.
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Aug 14, 2006 3:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should just accept that there are crazy people and there is always danger and risk of being killed in this world. But I'm sick of inconvenience and scare-mongering. Its more dangerous to walk across a busy street or drown then a backward muslim blowing you up! Just accept the risks. I'm sick of giving up my privacy, convenience, and rights for the sake of "security". I figure we either give in totally and put on burkhas, or go out all ethnic-cleansing profiling police state, or just accept that there is risk in the world and deal with it.

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"what stopped this plot was law enforcement"
Posted by: Boomerang on Aug 14, 2006 4:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a bold-faced lie.

What stopped this plot was intelligence services working together in tight-knit coordination with law enforcement. It's not the same. Don't confuse the two.

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Denial Bubble @ War OF Terror
Posted by: Hal on Aug 14, 2006 4:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Notice: advice from amateur night mindsets to "grow up" and take what is handed down from the DC-MSM-UK puppet show won’t wash. Not from the sandbox.

Constitutional standards for real justice have become a sellout farce of what the founders intended in a serial killing joke of “democracy” and free market “capitalism” from the west. Preaching due process when it is for sale to the highest bidder is absurd.

Sham elections, 911 cover-up and faux “war on terror” have proven the rule of law to be a commodity. Like any branch of a poodle DC-MSM-UK complex, the Judiciary with its secret courts and “national security” proceedings are in the pocket of corporate cartel elites. Thus virtually every point made in defense of the prevailing insanity on this thread runs on empty. Such thinking also betrays a stunning ignorance of cartel economics, along with its history and lessons.

In sum, status quo defenders have less than no foundation for skin-deep arguments made here. Such rants may impress a low rent denial bubble crew but they mean little to nothing otherwise.

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Orange alert! My Coffee is going to explode!
Posted by: RoryB on Aug 28, 2006 5:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Red Alert! Orange Alert! My coffee and bottled water water which I had to leave behind at the gate ARE TERRORIST WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION! So is Granny from Des Moines' Shampoo!

PLEASE MOST AWSOME SECURITY STATE please save us! AEEEEIIIIIIII, I'm quivering, Please please take away all my rights for my OWN saftey, I swear I'll be good, no more bad thoughts no more bad thoughts....

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