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How Many People Is Too Many?

By Stan Cox, AlterNet. Posted August 10, 2006.


Everyone from anti-contraception Christians to zero-population-growth advocates is using the U.S's looming 300-million mark to advance their agenda.
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By mid-October of this year, the world's third most populous nation will hit 300 million inhabitants. And thanks to America's burgeoning fertility rate, we will keep moving briskly onward, hitting 400 million in less than 40 years, by Census Bureau projections.

Is 300 million people too many -- or not enough? Wade into a discussion of population size, and you're soon up to your neck in a host of knotty issues: sex, contraception, immigration, economic justice and ecological crises. To find out who'll be celebrating the big milepost, who'll be deploring it, and why, I got in touch with seven individuals who have especially strong views on the various forces that will decide the eventual size and composition of our nation's population.

One out of three pregnancies unintended

I started with an organization that's been at the center of the population struggle for decades. Population Connection, based in Washington, D.C., was founded in 1968 as Zero Population Growth by, among others, biologist Paul Erlich. Erlich wrote "The Population Bomb," a 1960s bestseller that put human numbers on the public agenda.

Brian Dixon, Population Connection's director of government relations, told me the group will try to take advantage of the publicity surrounding the 300 million mark to advance its congressional agenda. Today, that consists mostly of rearguard actions to protect existing reproductive rights and resist what Dixon calls "the war on sex information."

He said that when people don't have the means and information to control their fertility, the results are obvious: "Just here in the D.C. area where we work, you can't go a week without seeing evidence of overpopulation in the press: choked highways, crowded classrooms. It's our job to make it clear that we have to maintain not only living space but also lots of forests, farms, wetlands, etc."

Dixon cited research showing that one-third of all pregnancies in this country are unintended. "And our teen pregnancy rate is almost twice that of the next-highest industrialized nation. Yet we're wasting hundreds of millions on abstinence programs that have been shown never to work, and in fact can be quite harmful."

He doesn't believe abstinence proponents are really interested in preventing pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases: "They want to punish people who act, in their view, immorally. You got pregnant? It's because you behaved badly. You got an STD? You should've thought about that before you had sex. They want bad outcomes."

I asked Dixon about a May 6 article by Russell Shorto in The New York Times Magazine that created a national stir by exposing the religious right's efforts to restrict access to contraception. He said the threat is very real, and it's nothing new: "That's been pretty obvious around Washington for a while."

Fruit of the womb

Among the motives behind what Shorto called the "contra-contraception" campaign, a "pro-procreation" philosophy is not necessarily foremost; current attacks on birth control are as much about making political hay as making babies. But some Christian writers are giving top priority to what they see as the duty of believers to reproduce, early and often.

Nancy Campbell of Franklin, Tennessee, is author of the 2003 book "Be Fruitful and Multiply." Her title quotes Genesis 1:28, in which God gives Adam and Eve a bit of advice that many evangelical Christians interpret as a command to procreate energetically. In an article on her website aboverubies.org, Campbell lists "101 Reasons for Having Children." (No. 27 -- "It's just as easy to cook for ten as it is for one!")

Regarding religious groups' efforts to restrict contraception, she told me, "I would like to see contraception be made less available to young unmarried people. Contraception has actually caused more babies born out of wedlock than when young people had to say no to sex before marriage."

She also sees access to contraception within marriage as a negative influence: "It has caused more divorces and breakups. It gives easy access to adultery and therefore has reduced faithfulness in marriage."

It's not easy to find hard data on the impact of American religion on reproductive behavior where it counts most -- in the delivery room. Very recent research (pdf) at the University of Colorado found that Catholicism (which still forbids artificial contraception) had a positive association with fertility rates in some parts of the country, but a negligible or negative effect in others. Mainstream Protestantism was linked to higher fertility rates only in a few regions, whereas evangelical Protestantism had a "significant and positive" relationship with fertility "everywhere in the U.S."


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Stan Cox is a plant breeder and writer in Salina, Kan.

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The battle for America is over - this country is lost!!!
Posted by: FauxPorteno on Aug 10, 2006 12:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Is Nancy Campbell encouraged that evangelicals are having more kids? "Yes, I think this is a positive trend. I think that Christian people, on the whole, are going to raise more God-fearing and honest citizens who will bless the nation."

. . . Or more likely they will just create several more generations of ultra-haters and religious zealots who poison the earth with their fanaticism. Just what we need - millions of Bush lites and junior Jerry Falwells forcing their brand of ignorance, mysticism and intolerance down the throats of the rest of us.

Not to worry though. Long before this country reaches 400 million, disease, famine and social unrest will thin out the population. It's truly unfortunate that so many cannot project past their penis/uterus/holy bible enough to realize that those broods of children they are bringing into the world will likely die a horrible death along with all the other surplus children these dipshits are "commanded" to bring into this sick world . . .

» Christians nations? Posted by: HeroesAll
» Correction Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Good point! Posted by: WhuThe?!?
An artificial struggle for survival.
Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 10, 2006 1:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, the US can continue to have a growing population. Look at India and China, where population continues to grow. Americans who support uncontrolled population growth must therefore wish to live as they do in India or China. I do not know what, if any, are the problems in the other obvious option, Japan, where population density is much greater than in the US.

“Planet of Slums” is about the consequences of population growth across the Third World. At the moment, the crisis has only begun. No place is left for marginal living, even at a level of minimal survival. The result is a struggle for survival that grows increasingly violent with little or no prospect of reduction or improvement.

The same pattern is evident in a much less virulent form in the US. Our prisons are overcrowded. People die waiting for care in urban emergency rooms. Cities have sizeable areas that are governed more by street gangs than elected officialdom and police. Joblessness, homelessness, poverty, and lack of education grow.

As a child of the Great Depression, I grew up as America struggled to cope with the Republican Party’s gift of economic depressions. I do not expect a repeat. Instead I expect that economic pressures this time will be managed by economic inflation. How long the balancing act now underway can last is anyone’s guess.

A business that is not growing, it dying. A life form that cannot stop growing is a cancer. We will not know how much of a cancer the American body politic can tolerate until we get sicker. The familiar struggle to get ahead becomes instead a struggle just to stay alive.

» I hope not too... Posted by: WhuThe?!?
stabilized or reduced
Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 10, 2006 3:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Earth population will be stabilized or reduced, the question is how? The options are choice, disease, war, starvation, global warming, asteroid etc. Choose choice and rejoice.

» Build up and Proliferatei Posted by: coldeye
» RE: stabilized or reduced Posted by: Rod in 83706
Without immigration US population growth holds steady
Posted by: metahope on Aug 10, 2006 3:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The biggest increases in population come not from Americans having too many babies but from the hoards of illegal aliens coming in from around the world to squeze out their babies on American soil so that their babies can be called Americans.

Rear-guard?
Posted by: Urstrly on Aug 10, 2006 4:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the author is right that one in every three pregnancies is unintended, then it seems unfair to call Population Connection's campaign to hold onto reproduction rights rear-guard. Think how many unintended pregancies could be stopped with family planning information in Spanish and English and the material means to carry it out. With unimpeded access to early abortion, even more might be done. All we have to do is get rid of repressive governments on both sides of the Mexican border.

Where you lead we're doomed to follow...
Posted by: Ames on Aug 10, 2006 5:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And here in Australia, with only a slightly smaller land mass, we're worried about overcrowding at 20 million!!! And our conservative government wants Australian women to have more babies because of our 'ageing' population (even offering a $4000 incentive to have a child while trying to limit access to abortion and discouraging sex education), while crying that we can't accept any more refugees because of desperate water shortages.
The conservative halcyon days of mum at home popping out the kids in the baby boom era were an abnormality in Western society, where people in general have married later, had children later, both parents have worked, and human consumption of the planet was far lower.
Never mind better environmental management or allowing people autonomy over their reproductive choices, the fast answer is divisive politics, a lesson learned well from Bush and co. Our recent debates over issues such as abortion, refugees and terrorism have only served to polarise society and blind it to the crap job the government is doing in managing the land we live on and the society that dwells on it.
Where your conservative government goes, our conservative government follows until John Howard's head is surgically removed from Bush's arse by one or both finally being voted out by those of us who have had enough of their divisive politics and hate-mongering.
Peace out.

» Back to england Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Back to england Posted by: Ames
» RE: Back to england Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Back to england Posted by: morticia
» RE: Back to england Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Back to england Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Back to england Posted by: Ouelle
Liberty is the answer. What's the question?
Posted by: BJT on Aug 10, 2006 5:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People should be able to reproduce as they see fit, completely apart from government intervention.

This article's very topic is irrelevant if you value freedom. The USA will take generations before it is as packed as India, and that country hasn't imploded into chaos.

Don't worry, chicken little, that whole population thing is going to work out OK.

RE: note from the author
Posted by: glorybe on Aug 10, 2006 6:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Capitalism is nonsense. It is like a 300 lb. canary. It has never existed yet people assume it is wonderful stuff. We all live in highly regulated markets. A free market has never existed nor will it ever exist. To blindly assume that capitalism can occur in degrees is nonsense. To assume that capitalism has ever done anything at all is also nonsense. As I take my Social Security card from my wallet and view it I can assure you with total authority that we are and always have been a soclalist nation. Sadly our workers are so deluded that they have failed to end all immigration as the value of labor soars as the supply of labor dwindles. By sealing our borders what we will really see is a society in which those that do hard labor start to have a better lifestyle then those that work at desks or in jobs where they wear suits and ties. It is already happening. I know of a large church where the church handyman now earns more than the churches school teachers or office workers. Now if we can get these laborers earning more than the CEOs of corporations we just might approach social justice.

RE: ah, another example of overclass propaganda -- Nice translation!
Posted by: Pat Kittle on Aug 10, 2006 6:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The corporate media could learn a lesson in spin from Stan.

Demographic roller-coaster
Posted by: brunowe on Aug 10, 2006 6:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The tricky bit is what happens if population growth rate gets cut too quickly. Europe has low fertility rates but the older generation is so much bigger than the newer ones that they are looking forward to a pensions crisis. Japan is in the same boat. The US, with its higher fertility and immigration, isn't in as bad shape on such matters. Although there is a good case for population control, one has to be careful to not be too successful too soon.

Get Our House In Order
Posted by: NoPCZone on Aug 10, 2006 7:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our nation cannot control birth rates without using draconian measures like China has, but we can make some smart decisions to prepare and shape our future demographic distribution. Some smart policies enacted now can save a lot of trouble later on.

1- A National set of zoning guidelines needs to be set up guided by the availability of water, the presence of sensitive environmental areas, flood zones, etc. The same laws would require each succeeding level of government to fill in the details (state/county/township/city). This will give us a rational and coordinated zoning plan instead of a crazy quilt mosaic of sprawl.

2- A long range plan for transportation policy needs to be drawn up in a manner similar to the basic zoning plan above. The location of highways, ports, rail-yards, rail lines and terminals should be dictated by hazardous material safety, environmental protection, isolation from residential areas and the most efficient movement of people. We cannot pave over all of our best land at the whim of developers.

3- A set of Energy Star like standards needs to be developed for construction. Requiring high efficiency lighting, HVAC and other design specs can eliminate the need for many new power plants, keep carbon out of the air and save everybody money.

4- We need to stop subsidizing inefficient forms of transport. Passenger rail in this country has been hurt by the heavy direct and indirect subsidy given airlines and long haul trucking. Installing a clean and modern network of light and long-distance rail while killing our heavy subsidy of airlines and endless new highways will help kill sprawl.

There's more, but this gives you an idea of the direction we need to go. It will be a lot cheaper to do this now compared to the cost, complexity and disruption doing so later will take.

» RE: Get Our House In Order Posted by: harris
» RE: Get Our House In Order Posted by: YogiBear
Trailer Park
Posted by: Ouelle on Aug 10, 2006 7:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
residents have more babies than immigrants.

» RE: Trailer Park-"glorybe" Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Trailer Park-"glorybe" Posted by: harris
» RE: Trailer Park-"glorybe" Posted by: Ouelle
» Racism is alive and well... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Trailer Park Posted by: Old Skeptic
» RE: Trailer Park Posted by: Ouelle
Marxist dogmatism is not an answer. It sees life as cheap as does capitalism.
Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 10, 2006 7:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course the problem, by definition for Yates of the Monthly Review, is capitalism. That might make sense, except for the fact that every blooming type of economy in the whole world today is struggling with overpopulation. There are over 6 billion of us on a planet estimated to be able to handle 1.5-2 billion with a decent living standard.

Just like too many rats in a cage, humans have begun to feed on each other, especially our young. Iraq is a perfect example of what happens when a weak nation has a resource that a powerful nation needs.

And, yes, the answer is that we all need to learn to get along together and agree on a strategy. That's always the answer. But the question remains, how to do that. The UN can barely crawl. Nations refuse to trade the right to make war for a collective security force.

And too many people have been taught to believe that it is OK to die or to kill, when necessary. The life of animals has always been cheap. Now we treat our kind as mere animals.

Big families are not sustainable...
Posted by: Callibrarian on Aug 10, 2006 7:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least not the ones being promoted by conservative Christians---working dad, stay at home mom who home schools or sends the kids to private school. The problem: they have too much stuff and too many kids to survive a shift in the economy. Our jobs are changing from stable, decent employment with benefits to transient work where you buy your own health care. Interest only loans and ARMS are readjusting. It's harder to file bankruptcy. They've reformatted welfare. In the next five years or so, the average large family is going to struggle because there is no flexibility in their lives. When things get tight, single people can room together. Families with one or two kids can rent out a room to make ends meet, and the mother can find work. But mothers of large families will spend so much on daycare they're stuck. And when it comes to health care...When I was offered COBRA I about croaked because it was about $350 a month PER PERSON! These churches keep pushing big families, but when something happens, these families are not going to be allowed to move into the sanctuary. Watch, in a few years we'll here preachers talking about "We've seen the light!" and reversing their mandates.

Personally, I think there's plenty of space. As long as you use it well...
Posted by: Colin on Aug 10, 2006 7:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While there is no question that I support the notion that ‘a species that's too fruitful for too long will undercut its means of survival’, I will, once again, take up the point that this is not yet necessarily the case. For me, +the+ paragraph in the text that needs considering is this one:

“Redefining Progress estimated that this nation's staggering level of consumption and waste generation requires a lot more than standing room for each person. The average American's "ecological footprint" -- the theoretical area required to supply everything a person consumes and to deal with the aftermath -- is 269 global acres, almost nine times the footprint of the average person in China and more than 22 times that of the average Indian or Pakistani.

According to their analysis, the ecological footprint of the United States as a nation is bigger than the combined footprints of China, India, Brazil, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Russia, which together are home to 3 billion people. So from the planet's point of view, the birth of a single American child has the potential impact of 10 births in those countries.”

To follow that up with the line; “Jennifer Shawne believes that such statistics should be a consideration in deciding whether to reproduce: "Each child born in this country means further destruction of the planet,” I find incredible. It only means further destruction +if+ you concede the point that the only way humans can live is as they are doing now. However, that concession is clearly rubbish. We don’t have to be such greedy buggers.

The total number of people living in the world doesn’t matter much – it’s the choices that those people who are living make in regards to their lives that is key. I did some number crunching based on figures provided by http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004372.html. According to this site, the total land area on earth is 148,940,000,000 sq km’s. Now given there are 6,500,000,000 people on earth, that means if you distributed all the land on earth equally, every single man woman and child would receive 22.91 sq km’s of land each. That’s an awful lot of land to each have. However, most of that land would be useless to support life. But, the area of arable land available is 10.76% of the total land mass. That means you are looking at 16,025,944,000 sq km’s of land which, when divided equally means we would each receive 2.47 sq km’s of prime farmland each. Not enough to run a town off but more than enough for one person to provide for themselves. And, don’t worry about the squeeze – that still leaves virtually 90% of all the land on earth literally uninhabited.

The planet earth has plenty of space to accommodate human beings as the population is now and will be in 50 years. That is assuming everyone involved accepts they are part of a wider society and can’t have everything they want whenever they want it. Unfortunately, we’re just not that grown up. We do not just want anymore. Nowadays we seem to believe we have a right to actually get whatever we want, when we want it. It is precisely this problem that’s at the root of our land problems – not that we’re running out, just that we’re too selfish and thoughtless to effectively use what we already have.

Don’t believe me? Check the other Alternet articles on this subject. I’ve seen a few and whereas the subject of whether we can accommodate the people with the amount of land available is often discussed, challenges to the current utilisation of those the areas we do use are few and far between (i.e. demanding someone else doesn't have kids is fine, accepting you have to curb your own wants is not). When it is mentioned, it is in the form of the above– i.e. blank acceptance of the current methods of managing the planet we live on. +This+ is the problem.

» Plenty of Land Posted by: albrechtkrausse
RE: The Catholic church
Posted by: VisionQuest on Aug 10, 2006 7:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So why is population growth either low or negative in Catholic countries like Italy, Spain and Ireland? Clearly, there is some force other/greater than the Catholic church in countries with high birth rates.

» Yes, there is... Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: The Catholic church Posted by: mazel
» RE: The Catholic church Posted by: willymack
» RE: The Catholic church Posted by: albrechtkrausse
FLASHBACK
Posted by: mystic13 on Aug 10, 2006 7:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why am I suddenly having flashbacks of a sweaty, red hankie tied around the neck, Charlton Heston and rumors about Soylent Green?

Canada's starting to sound pretty good, right about now.

Mystic13

» RE: FLASHBACK Posted by: Rod in 83706
» RE: FLASHBACK Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: FLASHBACK Posted by: willymack
It's not the number that counts
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Aug 10, 2006 7:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether it's 400 million or 400 billion, the planet IS more than capable of sustaining us. The problem is we aren't using it.

Tidal energy. Geothermal energy. The earth's magnetic field. There are sources of energy all around this planet, yet we're not investing real money into any of it.

With clean sources of energy we could exist without polluting the environment and then there would be virtually no limit to how many people this world can hold.

I am so sick of all the wasted thought on this subject, and it's all because a bunch of rich [censored] would rather sail on their damn yachts and golf all day long. We've thrown this country trillions of dollars into debt so that the rich could have a tax cut when what we needed to do was invest those trillions into alternative energy. That would have created REAL JOBS right here in america. That's how you grow an economy. You don't just take a bunch of money and give it to the bloodcucking parasites on wall street who only care about making money, NOT about strengthening our economy. Hell, I'll bet half of Bush's tax giveaways went directly to Asia...

My point is that all of that garbage is acceptable, yet it is totally unacceptable to even contemplate spending trillions on alternative energy? Because the rich own this country and they care only about themselves. To hell with the rest of us. And that's where this whole topic of overpopulation really comes from.

This entire topic is the perfect example of how the elite sets the agenda for what we think and do. They think we are a pest. They think we are overpopulated. They think we need to be eliminated. It's just a matter of degrees, that's what they want us to think. But in reality, the whole topic is bogus.

Rate of unintended pregnancies
Posted by: judithkrain on Aug 10, 2006 8:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe the number quoted is incorrect. The Allan Gutmacher institute, which tracks all numbers related to pregnancies states that the rate of unintended pregnancies is not a third but closer to 50%, and has been for some time now.

I run a fund that pays for abortions for poor women all across the country and our numbers also agree with Guttmacher's.

» RE: ate of unintended pregnancies Posted by: Iconoclast421
» Well... Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Well... Posted by: morticia
» Does anyone else find this comment Posted by: russianblue1
To Hell In A Lot of Handbaskets.
Posted by: monkeywrench on Aug 10, 2006 8:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a sobering fact for the baby-factory evangelicals: today, the single most important factor in predicting future poverty is having children.
. . . . .

"Cold War" baby competitions between liberals and conservatives, native-born parents and immigrants? A "go forth and multiply" orgy thanks to following a Bible pronouncement that is 2000 years out of date? People being so ignorant about science and environmental issues that they think we can grow our population until you can walk across the Mississippi River on the bodies? Yep, a lot of us are nuts and will drive this country "to hell in a handbasket" – millions of handbaskets.

I hope that the advocates of unlimited growth enjoy choking, immobile traffic, longer lines at every public venue, dirtier air and water, landfills popping up in their towns and cities, shortages of even basic commodities, and social disruption like is seen in other overcrowded nations – because that is the future that we will all face if these fools get their way. Environmental collapse does not descriminate between the intelligent and the hopelessly ignorant.

RE: The Catholic church
Posted by: paintthestreets on Aug 10, 2006 8:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That has little to do with Catholicism. It is the result of many factors. 1. Birth control is not always readily available, 2. ignorance, 3. some people own small bits of land. They have many children to help with the work and also these kids will be given the land once their parents pass away.

I have had it
Posted by: Ellie1 on Aug 10, 2006 8:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christianity in all of its current forms today are all shit, and anyone (especially women) who adhere to their manipulative, anti-life control is a moron. I say anti life because they have no concern for the quality of life, only for the quantity of it. The words of jesus Christ have been manipulated and transformed by master controllers, and the followers of these a-holes are either stupid, naive, or pathetic-probably all three. If they learned to THINK FOR THEMSELVES, they wouldn't be culpable to such manipulation. THAT is why the Repukes want to limit education-an educated electorate cannot be controlled, if their education is inclusive. It is all about control of the idiot masses in this country, which is going to hell in a hand basket. I no longer consider myself a loyal American, and have not saluted the flag since Bushit was selected.

» sucker Posted by: coldeye
» RE: sucker Posted by: willymack
RE: Sex only for procreation and not for fun
Posted by: Ouelle on Aug 10, 2006 8:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have you ever inserted your penis into a womb? I don't think I know of a man who has.

» Noel Noel Posted by: coldeye
» I certainly haven't. Posted by: MatthewSavage
Use Islam as your guide
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Aug 10, 2006 9:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Over-population occurs well before the strain on resources. Studies of animal populations demonstrate this. So do the nations of Islam. In the Arab world, women are second-class citizens, who's only role is to produce sons. The result is the primary export of Islam: male suicide bombers. Reading the crapola of the religious right, one could see the day where they too will glory in the production of the same male export.

» RE: Use Islam as your guide Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Use Islam as your guide Posted by: cosmicgold
» RE: Use Islam as your guide Posted by: willymack
Ibix
Posted by: Ibix on Aug 10, 2006 9:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I strongly object to Jennifer Shawne's "last word" on the subject. Where does she get off saying that "trying to preserve a culture is futile - and even dangerous?" I'll bet she wouldn't say that about Tibetan culture! Why is our American culture fair game?

Cultures may "change and evolve", but they stay recognizable. Italian culture evolved through the Renaissance, the Baroque , etc, but stayed recognizably Italian. Japanese culture went from Heian to Tokagawa to Meiji, but always remained Japanese. The result? The world unites in rewarding those two distinct identities with fame, tourism and affection.

Well, what about our American culture? Our Euro-African fusion has given more goodies to the world in the last century than any other: jazz, skyscrapers, Hollywood, Motown, Sinatra, CalTech - and the list goes on. Why shouldn't we keep it? I am getting fed up with people - fellow liberals, no less! - telling us that we should just roll over and "diversify" into a multilingual, multicultural, latter-day Hapsburg empire, and suggesting otherwise is "racism". No, it is not. I like Danish culture, Mexican culture, Arab culture. I like all the cultures of the world - separate and distinct. And I like our American culture, too - as is. Don't you?

» RE: Ibix Posted by: ConnecttheDots
Happiness is A Warm Gun
Posted by: coldeye on Aug 10, 2006 9:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here I offer positive support for the choice to have or not have kids and you are bent out of shape. People who are anti-freedom like those who want to tell people when and how they have or don't have kids are not good people to follow. Choice leads to happiness.

I am not from Israel by the way. If I were from Israel what difference would it make? And why would you make that comment? Have a problem with people from Israel?


The US Supreme Court has held not only in abortion cases but in procreation and sterilizatiion cases cited in great detail in Roe v Wade and subsequent abortion decisions and gay rights cases that the government in the USA can't dictate these controls on the right to have or not have kids in a free society. It is ironic as always to see the "open-minded" liberals of Alternet acting like Maoists or the eugenicists hired by the German national socialist party.

I like living in a free society where the decision to have kids is not up to the government. Do you? If you don't, there are many places you could go too. Like Iran. Iran hates America and Israel, so you might like it there. Unlike China, they ban abortion, but I think women can get them anyway unofficially.

[I usually do not request people to leave the country, by the way, but when they express total unhappiness with the benefits of living in the greatest nation in the world, the USA, I merely suggest that there are totalitarian US-hating nations like Venezuela, Cuba or Iran where they might find people who share their hate-filled opinions.]

» RE: Happiness is A Warm Gun Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: Happiness is A Warm Gun Posted by: willymack
Cry0fan lives!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 10, 2006 9:48 AM   
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One of the main Republican political efforts is to divide their opposition into little camps that can then be easily marginalized - so you see 'wedge issues' played over and over. One example is attempting to pit 'environmentalists' against 'immigrants', 'white liberal groups' against 'black religious groups', etc. etc. However, the progressives have a much better record of inclusiveness and looking out for everyone in the country, while Republicans really just serve the top 0.1% of the wealthiest families in the country - that's why they want to do away with taxes on multimillion-dollar inheritances; they'd rather see that money in an offshore Cayman Island tax haven than in the US Treasury. Even more ridiculous, middle and low income people do pay taxes - which are also recycled to the Caymans via no-bid contracts delivered to the likes of Halliburton and Bechtel.

God is a Dirty Old Man
Posted by: coldeye on Aug 10, 2006 9:53 AM   
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What does "God" have to do with fertilization of eggs? Does "God" worry about whatever "beings" exist on 100 million planets where reproduction has nothing to do with our biological formats?

I always love how people who believe in "God" as a separate being make this thing such a busy body. I thought Christianity and Judaism at least believe in human freedom. Freedom to do good. Freedom to do bad.

» RE: God is a Dirty Old Man Posted by: spitty
» Fear and lies! Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: God is a Dirty Old Man Posted by: willymack
The population problem has a non-intuitive solution
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 10, 2006 9:56 AM   
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Numerous people who look at birth rates draw strong parallels between the 'economic liberation' of women and reduced birth rates. Women who are economically independent tend to have fewer children and they have them later in life. Women who live under repressive male authority, whether in a Taleban society or a ultraconservative religious US family, are the ones who are impregnated at age 18 and are more or less forced to have children every year or so, because their domineering husbands think birth control is sinful. So, it seems that the people who are doing the most for a sane population strategy are those who advocate for women's rights and women's education, and access to birth control for both men and women.

There is a historical hangover here, to - in the days before antibiotics and modern health care, only one in three children might have survived to adulthood. In addition, family farms were common in the past and that also encouraged large families to provide a big workforce. We now live in a different world, and so we need new approaches.

RE: Secular people are too vocal and want sex without consequence
Posted by: Archtop on Aug 10, 2006 10:19 AM   
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Andy, Andy Kaufman... is that you. Man your just as silly as ever, but I thought you gave up the Latka routine.

Sadly...
Posted by: Ktflake on Aug 10, 2006 10:37 AM   
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anyone who does not understand the implications of unconstrained population growth has is dooming the globe to implosion. Okay, Malthus was an elitist asshole. Fine. Marx called him a "buffoon." Hilarious and true. But, the one things Malthus did, with no principals of ecology to work with, is delineate the concept of CARRYING CAPACITY. You see, there is a finite area upon which we can live, grow crops, and dump waste. Hence, Ehrlich proposed the IPAT (Impact on earth=Population x Affluence x Technology). Currently, we suffer from an uneven distribution of resources (Marx's critique). We could, theoretically, feed everyone on this planet with enough calories to keep them from starvation. However, as population grows, waste increases, the need to make land more productive increases (meaning more herbicides, pesticide, genetic engineering, etc), more land will need to be made available for people to live on, we'll cut into wild habitats, destroy the food chain, mass extinction will follow, including our own, not to mention polution of water resources (yeah, we need that and desalinization ain't an option) and the impact on aerable soil (desertification will follow intensified farming practices). So, even though right now we may be able to feed everyone with the resources available, and we may be able to feed another couple billion more people, we will eventually hit that wall of ecological carrying capacity. Damn, reality. Like global warming, we need to take a more proactive approach instead of waiting until things get real bad (in probably another 100 years or so). The best we could do is not force birth control on the poor or third world--but cut our consumption here in the US and in other first world countries. Then we need to take steps to curb global warming, ensure that maintain enough aerable land for future generations, and maintain clean water supplies. But, all that will be for naught if at some point along the way we don't stop breeding like a bunch of arrogant assholes.

Too Many People
Posted by: worksg on Aug 10, 2006 10:48 AM   
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There are now about 6.5 billion people in the world. We are using up many of the earths's resources faster than they can replaced. This is obviously not sustainable and must lead to a collapse. Computer simulations show that this collapse will happen in this century, perhaps in some of our lifetimes. See "Limits to Growth: the 30-Year Update" by Meadows, Randers and Meadows for details. Don't you really think it's time to be responsible about reproduction?

WE MUST TAKE DRASTIC MEASURES!!!!!!!
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Aug 10, 2006 10:56 AM   
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Great article! And thank you to Alternet for exposing both sides ofthis issue! As ignorant as one side really is, for progressives to critically think, it is important for to keep in touch with what the other side is saying. We have to know what we are up against, and I found all this very interesting. Wow! Is that Buchanan guy scarey or what?!?
We have a world problem, not just a national one, but as pointed out in the article, the huge per-capita environmental footprint in a society with no concern for future generations, in combination with a rapidly increasing population is extremely scarey. And throw in the religious right's gaining influence on our society and government; combined with their spreading of ignorance and encouragement at increasing population makes thing even scarier!
The fact of the matter is that we passed carrying capacity for a human population wanting to live environmentally-damaging lifestyles some time ago. I would estimate that if all the worlds inhabitants were to live the lifestyle of the average Unitedstatesian, the world might support a billion of us, that is, assuming the carbon levels didn't eventually wreak havock. I believe the world might support the current population if humans were to live low-technology lifestyles typical of what the indigenous populations lived before they were all-but eliminated. Now, keep in mind that I am only looking at this from a human standpoint. Wildlife populations are greatly diminished with that many humans competing for resources, and that is just not right in my opinion.
Regardless of the actual numbers, it is obvious the world can't continue to support our current population, and people aren't changing their lifestyles to address the problem. In fact the fools are doing the opposite! Therefore, we must address the population issue with what many would consider drastic measures.
Apart from all the strict environmental measures we need to take for our survival, we must reduce population now or their will be even more suffering later. The first step should be legislation limiting the number of children per individual to two (therefore a couple could only have two). I don't believe forced abortion would be ethical, but if a person were to break the law that protects them from themselves by having more than two offspring, then there would be mandatory sterilization. In addition, progressives must get in control of the government to save the fools from themselves and start a massive education campaign encouraging people to only have one child, while guaranteeing that people will have their needs met when they get old. This guarantee will be necessary because many feel inclined to have more children to assure they will be cared for when they get old. We could offset the demographic problem of lower birth rates (which makes it difficult to guarantee that basic needs for the aged will be met by the taxes of the population) by allowing enough immigration to increase the tax base.
These kinds of things need to be done worldwide; that is in the best interests of Unitedstatesians, and of those with whom we should be sharing the planet. So, we need to quit exploiting entire countries and offer some true goodwill so their economies will improve, because no country can take these measures without decent financial situations. It is a fact that when countries prosper, birth rates decline, so we need to be nice to other countries and help them have decent lives too. Wow, we'd even have less terrorism then; what a radical concept!!
Does it sound cruel or intrusive to protect people from themselves? I think it sounds more cruel to allow people to create famine, pestilence and war for future generations. We confront reality now, or pass off a hell of a lot of suffering to our children. That's the fact of the matter!