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How Many People Is Too Many?

By Stan Cox, AlterNet. Posted August 10, 2006.


Everyone from anti-contraception Christians to zero-population-growth advocates is using the U.S's looming 300-million mark to advance their agenda.
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By mid-October of this year, the world's third most populous nation will hit 300 million inhabitants. And thanks to America's burgeoning fertility rate, we will keep moving briskly onward, hitting 400 million in less than 40 years, by Census Bureau projections.

Is 300 million people too many -- or not enough? Wade into a discussion of population size, and you're soon up to your neck in a host of knotty issues: sex, contraception, immigration, economic justice and ecological crises. To find out who'll be celebrating the big milepost, who'll be deploring it, and why, I got in touch with seven individuals who have especially strong views on the various forces that will decide the eventual size and composition of our nation's population.

One out of three pregnancies unintended

I started with an organization that's been at the center of the population struggle for decades. Population Connection, based in Washington, D.C., was founded in 1968 as Zero Population Growth by, among others, biologist Paul Erlich. Erlich wrote "The Population Bomb," a 1960s bestseller that put human numbers on the public agenda.

Brian Dixon, Population Connection's director of government relations, told me the group will try to take advantage of the publicity surrounding the 300 million mark to advance its congressional agenda. Today, that consists mostly of rearguard actions to protect existing reproductive rights and resist what Dixon calls "the war on sex information."

He said that when people don't have the means and information to control their fertility, the results are obvious: "Just here in the D.C. area where we work, you can't go a week without seeing evidence of overpopulation in the press: choked highways, crowded classrooms. It's our job to make it clear that we have to maintain not only living space but also lots of forests, farms, wetlands, etc."

Dixon cited research showing that one-third of all pregnancies in this country are unintended. "And our teen pregnancy rate is almost twice that of the next-highest industrialized nation. Yet we're wasting hundreds of millions on abstinence programs that have been shown never to work, and in fact can be quite harmful."

He doesn't believe abstinence proponents are really interested in preventing pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases: "They want to punish people who act, in their view, immorally. You got pregnant? It's because you behaved badly. You got an STD? You should've thought about that before you had sex. They want bad outcomes."

I asked Dixon about a May 6 article by Russell Shorto in The New York Times Magazine that created a national stir by exposing the religious right's efforts to restrict access to contraception. He said the threat is very real, and it's nothing new: "That's been pretty obvious around Washington for a while."

Fruit of the womb

Among the motives behind what Shorto called the "contra-contraception" campaign, a "pro-procreation" philosophy is not necessarily foremost; current attacks on birth control are as much about making political hay as making babies. But some Christian writers are giving top priority to what they see as the duty of believers to reproduce, early and often.

Nancy Campbell of Franklin, Tennessee, is author of the 2003 book "Be Fruitful and Multiply." Her title quotes Genesis 1:28, in which God gives Adam and Eve a bit of advice that many evangelical Christians interpret as a command to procreate energetically. In an article on her website aboverubies.org, Campbell lists "101 Reasons for Having Children." (No. 27 -- "It's just as easy to cook for ten as it is for one!")

Regarding religious groups' efforts to restrict contraception, she told me, "I would like to see contraception be made less available to young unmarried people. Contraception has actually caused more babies born out of wedlock than when young people had to say no to sex before marriage."

She also sees access to contraception within marriage as a negative influence: "It has caused more divorces and breakups. It gives easy access to adultery and therefore has reduced faithfulness in marriage."

It's not easy to find hard data on the impact of American religion on reproductive behavior where it counts most -- in the delivery room. Very recent research (pdf) at the University of Colorado found that Catholicism (which still forbids artificial contraception) had a positive association with fertility rates in some parts of the country, but a negligible or negative effect in others. Mainstream Protestantism was linked to higher fertility rates only in a few regions, whereas evangelical Protestantism had a "significant and positive" relationship with fertility "everywhere in the U.S."

Is Nancy Campbell encouraged that evangelicals are having more kids? "Yes, I think this is a positive trend. I think that Christian people, on the whole, are going to raise more God-fearing and honest citizens who will bless the nation."

Mark T. Coppenger, distinguished professor of Christian apologetics at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, doesn't want to do away with contraception, but he does believe in a divine mandate to procreate. Last year, Coppenger wrote an article entitled (what else?) "Be Fruitful and Multiply" in which he assured his readers, "We've got room. Don't let the fear of overcrowding discourage you. And even if things get tight with unbelieving families, we could always use more Christian parents raising Christian kids, should they be saved."

I asked Coppenger how far parents should go in their efforts to be fruitful. He leaves that up to the parents, sort of: "Following Genesis 1:28, I believe there is a prima facie duty to try to have children, but I believe each couple's number is a matter of personal calling, of vocation. This is not fancy talk for personal preference or convenience. Rather, the issue is what the Lord wants for them."

Congratulations -- it's a bouncing baby Republican!

With evangelicals seemingly more eager to have their sex bear fruit than are other Americans, and with religion and politics running more and more in parallel, it's not surprising to find conservatives gleefully claiming not only electoral dominance but also a reproductive edge over liberals. That has led to recent Democratic handwringing over an apparent liberal "baby bust" and the possibility that the party's platform is insufficiently "pro-family."

Jennifer Shawne has heard plenty about the alleged baby bust phenomenon since she published her book "Baby Not on Board: A Celebration of Life Without Kids" last year. Shawne, who lives in Oakland, California, told me it's not just religious conservatives who try to convince her of her duty to have children. "Some of my very liberal, nonbelieving friends tell me, 'You and your husband are liberal and well-educated, and you have good-paying jobs. You are the type of person who has an obligation to raise kids. Otherwise, there will be all kinds of societal problems.'"

Aside from the not-so-subtle prejudices implied by such arguments, Shawne points out the unsupported assumption that political and cultural attitudes are inherited traits. "The idea that people will turn out like their parents … it's so untrue, so silly."

Others have told Shawne that, without kids, her life's missing a dimension, that she's not a complete person until she has sacrificed for the sake of children. "Well," she says, "If I don't go live in Japan, my life's missing that dimension. That doesn't mean I should do it. And of course, if you do have kids, you give up a lot of other things."

As for more religious folks, Shawne says they need no longer be concerned about the command to be fruitful and multiply. "On that front, I think humanity can say, 'Mission Accomplished'! We all get a big pat on the back for that one."

Bigfoot spotted

Any biologist will tell you that a species that's too fruitful for too long will undercut its means of survival. How much bigger beyond 300 million people can this country grow without facing ecological ruination? I put that question to childbearing advocates Nancy Campbell and Mark Coppenger.

Campbell sees no problem. "God made this earth to be inhabited. I have traveled from one side of America to the other, as I am sure you have. You travel for miles and miles and miles of uninhabited land, drive through a city and back to uninhabited land. I think that the God who created this earth knows more than the environmentalists of our day."

And in Coppenger's opinion, "Three hundred million is not at all high. Even if you doubled that number, the U.S. population could still huddle on Nantucket Island, not that we would want to."

But how empty is all that land beyond Nantucket? In its 2005 update, the Oakland-based think tank Redefining Progress estimated that this nation's staggering level of consumption and waste generation requires a lot more than standing room for each person. The average American's "ecological footprint" -- the theoretical area required to supply everything a person consumes and to deal with the aftermath -- is 269 global acres, almost nine times the footprint of the average person in China and more than 22 times that of the average Indian or Pakistani.

According to their analysis, the ecological footprint of the United States as a nation is bigger than the combined footprints of China, India, Brazil, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Russia, which together are home to 3 billion people. So from the planet's point of view, the birth of a single American child has the potential impact of 10 births in those countries.

Jennifer Shawne believes that such statistics should be a consideration in deciding whether to reproduce: "Each child born in this country means further destruction of the planet. Now that argument doesn't really stick with people who are eager to have kids. But for others who are constantly being told by society that they are selfish for not wanting to have kids -- maybe it does help them."

And they're pushed in that direction by economic forces as well. History shows that the typical way a nation stabilizes its population is to raise its economic standard of living -- a process social scientists call the "demographic transition." The transition works partly because it takes so many more resources to raise a child in a rich country. The United States went through the transition, but it wasn't as effective here as in other industrialized nations, which have both lower resource consumption and lower birth rates than we do.

What would 400 million Americans look like?

In his 2002 book "The Death of the West," paleoconservative godfather Pat Buchanan argued that our nation's very existence is threatened by a one-two punch: insufficient enthusiasm for childbearing among native-born women and growing immigration from Mexico. In consummate Buchanan fashion, he denounced former President Bill Clinton and other "Western elites" who "don't seem to care if the end of the West comes by depopulation, by a surrender of nationhood, or by drowning in waves of Third World immigration."

Believing that the best defense is a good offense, Buchanan urged a return to large, patriarchal families (at least for people who look like him and his family) as a way of outstripping the immigrant population demographically and culturally.

However, another strain of anti-immigrant activism, motivated more by environmental concerns, sees overpopulation as the chief cross-border threat.

On the question of how many Americans there should be, no group goes further than Negative Population Growth (NPG), based in Arlington, Virginia. NPG's long-term goal is a U.S. population of 150 million -- half as many people as will reside here come October. Founded in 1972, NPG still advocates the two-child family and curtailment of resource consumption, but now spends most of its time and energy on immigration issues.

NPG Executive Vice President Craig Lewis is concerned that 300 million Americans will represent a much bigger environmental load than the same number of people almost anywhere else. But, he maintains, working for reproductive rights and smaller families without forceful action on immigration -- the strategy followed, for example, by Population Connection -- is doomed to fail.

"If not for immigration," he told me, "we already would have stabilized the U.S. population. Look at Italy and Ireland. Two Catholic countries that now have stable or declining populations. Our problem is immigration. It's easy for one person to bring in his sisters, brothers, parents. And immigrants have more children. Pretty quickly, one immigrant can really amount to 12."

Peter Brimelow, a financial journalist who lives in Washington, Connecticut, and runs the anti-immigration website vdare.com, also wants to see less population pressure within our borders.

He told me, "The environmental movement is generally thought to be liberal, but liberal environmentalists are apolitical for the most part. They just know that they like trees." He sees conservative environmentalists as hard-headed realists who, since President Theodore Roosevelt, have worked successfully to preserve lands in their natural state.

"It's simple: Do you like unspoiled land, or do you want to pave it over? To avoid paving it, I would like to see the population stabilize." Instead, he says, the government is encouraging growth through immigration: "We're carrying out a social engineering experiment on an unprecedented scale. And there's not even an economic rationale for it. Immigrants are mostly unskilled, and they have unskilled children."

Brimelow's plan of action is extreme: no net immigration into the United States for 15 years. What he calls "family unification chains" -- the ability of immigrants to be joined by family members -- should be broken. And the U.S.-Mexican border should be sealed.

How would sealing of the border be accomplished? "It would be easy to build a 2,500-mile fence. The Israelis say their fence is working very well. It's just a question of will."

The wall Israel is building on occupied Palestinian land may be "working" in the most narrow sense of deterring cross-border movement. But the broader consequences for a country that withdraws into that kind of isolation seem clear. In taking such extreme measures to protect our natural landscapes, we risk crippling our social and psychic landscapes.

Are Brimelow, Lewis, Buchanan and the rest of the anti-immigration movement aiming to preserve America's great traditions only by embalming them? Can we find ways of viewing immigration that lead to a less cruel course of action?

Don't blame us

Michael D. Yates is associate editor of the left political journal Monthly Review and former professor of economics at the University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown. When I asked him whether the United States is threatened by under- or over-population, either within or outside our borders, he insisted that it's wrong to blame a nation's problems on people because they're poor or immigrant, or have what are seen as too many kids: "People are poor and nations are poor not because they have too many people. Rather, the reverse is true."

Most anti-immigration activists are highly critical of U.S. businesses that take advantage of a swollen labor pool to exploit workers. But their bombast about "drowning in waves of immigration," says Yates, only draws attention away from the fundamental problem, which is economic. Companies, he says, structure themselves to make workers as interchangeable as possible. As a result, they "continuously throw onto and draw into the market a pool of surplus labor, and this surplus puts downward pressure on the wages of those still employed."

When the native population isn't producing enough people willing to work for the wages being offered, companies look beyond their national borders for a bigger pool of people. And, says Yates, "Any competition for jobs between native and immigrant labor can be exploited by many different actors. All sorts of bogus arguments can be made, as we see here now. The goal is to make natives see the immigrants as the cause of native problems. What is really going on is capitalism operating normally. Employers gain. Native workers lose. Immigrants lose too. Both groups lose because they are not united."

How soon the United States adds another 10 million or 50 million or 100 million to its population, and who those new Americans will be, is clearly an open question. The religious beliefs, political maneuvering, racial and ethnic struggles, economic realities, and ecological limits that will come together to shape the U.S. population curve in this century are probably enough to thwart even the most sophisticated demographic models.

And if it's hard to predict how many of us there will be, it's even tougher to know who we'll be. I'll leave the last word on that to non-breeder Jennifer Shawne. She told me, "This culture, like all cultures, is constantly evolving. I'm more interested in seeing how it changes in the future than in preserving it as it is or was. Trying to freeze any culture in time is futile anyway -- even dangerous."

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Stan Cox is a plant breeder and writer in Salina, Kan.

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The battle for America is over - this country is lost!!!
Posted by: FauxPorteno on Aug 10, 2006 12:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Is Nancy Campbell encouraged that evangelicals are having more kids? "Yes, I think this is a positive trend. I think that Christian people, on the whole, are going to raise more God-fearing and honest citizens who will bless the nation."

. . . Or more likely they will just create several more generations of ultra-haters and religious zealots who poison the earth with their fanaticism. Just what we need - millions of Bush lites and junior Jerry Falwells forcing their brand of ignorance, mysticism and intolerance down the throats of the rest of us.

Not to worry though. Long before this country reaches 400 million, disease, famine and social unrest will thin out the population. It's truly unfortunate that so many cannot project past their penis/uterus/holy bible enough to realize that those broods of children they are bringing into the world will likely die a horrible death along with all the other surplus children these dipshits are "commanded" to bring into this sick world . . .

» Christians nations? Posted by: HeroesAll
» Correction Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Good point! Posted by: WhuThe?!?
An artificial struggle for survival.
Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 10, 2006 1:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, the US can continue to have a growing population. Look at India and China, where population continues to grow. Americans who support uncontrolled population growth must therefore wish to live as they do in India or China. I do not know what, if any, are the problems in the other obvious option, Japan, where population density is much greater than in the US.

“Planet of Slums” is about the consequences of population growth across the Third World. At the moment, the crisis has only begun. No place is left for marginal living, even at a level of minimal survival. The result is a struggle for survival that grows increasingly violent with little or no prospect of reduction or improvement.

The same pattern is evident in a much less virulent form in the US. Our prisons are overcrowded. People die waiting for care in urban emergency rooms. Cities have sizeable areas that are governed more by street gangs than elected officialdom and police. Joblessness, homelessness, poverty, and lack of education grow.

As a child of the Great Depression, I grew up as America struggled to cope with the Republican Party’s gift of economic depressions. I do not expect a repeat. Instead I expect that economic pressures this time will be managed by economic inflation. How long the balancing act now underway can last is anyone’s guess.

A business that is not growing, it dying. A life form that cannot stop growing is a cancer. We will not know how much of a cancer the American body politic can tolerate until we get sicker. The familiar struggle to get ahead becomes instead a struggle just to stay alive.

» I hope not too... Posted by: WhuThe?!?
stabilized or reduced
Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 10, 2006 3:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Earth population will be stabilized or reduced, the question is how? The options are choice, disease, war, starvation, global warming, asteroid etc. Choose choice and rejoice.

» Build up and Proliferatei Posted by: coldeye
» RE: stabilized or reduced Posted by: Rod in 83706
Without immigration US population growth holds steady
Posted by: metahope on Aug 10, 2006 3:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The biggest increases in population come not from Americans having too many babies but from the hoards of illegal aliens coming in from around the world to squeze out their babies on American soil so that their babies can be called Americans.

Rear-guard?
Posted by: Urstrly on Aug 10, 2006 4:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the author is right that one in every three pregnancies is unintended, then it seems unfair to call Population Connection's campaign to hold onto reproduction rights rear-guard. Think how many unintended pregancies could be stopped with family planning information in Spanish and English and the material means to carry it out. With unimpeded access to early abortion, even more might be done. All we have to do is get rid of repressive governments on both sides of the Mexican border.

Where you lead we're doomed to follow...
Posted by: Ames on Aug 10, 2006 5:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And here in Australia, with only a slightly smaller land mass, we're worried about overcrowding at 20 million!!! And our conservative government wants Australian women to have more babies because of our 'ageing' population (even offering a $4000 incentive to have a child while trying to limit access to abortion and discouraging sex education), while crying that we can't accept any more refugees because of desperate water shortages.
The conservative halcyon days of mum at home popping out the kids in the baby boom era were an abnormality in Western society, where people in general have married later, had children later, both parents have worked, and human consumption of the planet was far lower.
Never mind better environmental management or allowing people autonomy over their reproductive choices, the fast answer is divisive politics, a lesson learned well from Bush and co. Our recent debates over issues such as abortion, refugees and terrorism have only served to polarise society and blind it to the crap job the government is doing in managing the land we live on and the society that dwells on it.
Where your conservative government goes, our conservative government follows until John Howard's head is surgically removed from Bush's arse by one or both finally being voted out by those of us who have had enough of their divisive politics and hate-mongering.
Peace out.

» Back to england Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Back to england Posted by: Ames
» RE: Back to england Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Back to england Posted by: morticia
» RE: Back to england Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Back to england Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Back to england Posted by: Ouelle
Liberty is the answer. What's the question?
Posted by: BJT on Aug 10, 2006 5:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People should be able to reproduce as they see fit, completely apart from government intervention.

This article's very topic is irrelevant if you value freedom. The USA will take generations before it is as packed as India, and that country hasn't imploded into chaos.

Don't worry, chicken little, that whole population thing is going to work out OK.

RE: note from the author
Posted by: glorybe on Aug 10, 2006 6:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Capitalism is nonsense. It is like a 300 lb. canary. It has never existed yet people assume it is wonderful stuff. We all live in highly regulated markets. A free market has never existed nor will it ever exist. To blindly assume that capitalism can occur in degrees is nonsense. To assume that capitalism has ever done anything at all is also nonsense. As I take my Social Security card from my wallet and view it I can assure you with total authority that we are and always have been a soclalist nation. Sadly our workers are so deluded that they have failed to end all immigration as the value of labor soars as the supply of labor dwindles. By sealing our borders what we will really see is a society in which those that do hard labor start to have a better lifestyle then those that work at desks or in jobs where they wear suits and ties. It is already happening. I know of a large church where the church handyman now earns more than the churches school teachers or office workers. Now if we can get these laborers earning more than the CEOs of corporations we just might approach social justice.

RE: ah, another example of overclass propaganda -- Nice translation!
Posted by: Pat Kittle on Aug 10, 2006 6:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The corporate media could learn a lesson in spin from Stan.

Demographic roller-coaster
Posted by: brunowe on Aug 10, 2006 6:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The tricky bit is what happens if population growth rate gets cut too quickly. Europe has low fertility rates but the older generation is so much bigger than the newer ones that they are looking forward to a pensions crisis. Japan is in the same boat. The US, with its higher fertility and immigration, isn't in as bad shape on such matters. Although there is a good case for population control, one has to be careful to not be too successful too soon.

Get Our House In Order
Posted by: NoPCZone on Aug 10, 2006 7:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our nation cannot control birth rates without using draconian measures like China has, but we can make some smart decisions to prepare and shape our future demographic distribution. Some smart policies enacted now can save a lot of trouble later on.

1- A National set of zoning guidelines needs to be set up guided by the availability of water, the presence of sensitive environmental areas, flood zones, etc. The same laws would require each succeeding level of government to fill in the details (state/county/township/city). This will give us a rational and coordinated zoning plan instead of a crazy quilt mosaic of sprawl.

2- A long range plan for transportation policy needs to be drawn up in a manner similar to the basic zoning plan above. The location of highways, ports, rail-yards, rail lines and terminals should be dictated by hazardous material safety, environmental protection, isolation from residential areas and the most efficient movement of people. We cannot pave over all of our best land at the whim of developers.

3- A set of Energy Star like standards needs to be developed for construction. Requiring high efficiency lighting, HVAC and other design specs can eliminate the need for many new power plants, keep carbon out of the air and save everybody money.

4- We need to stop subsidizing inefficient forms of transport. Passenger rail in this country has been hurt by the heavy direct and indirect subsidy given airlines and long haul trucking. Installing a clean and modern network of light and long-distance rail while killing our heavy subsidy of airlines and endless new highways will help kill sprawl.

There's more, but this gives you an idea of the direction we need to go. It will be a lot cheaper to do this now compared to the cost, complexity and disruption doing so later will take.

» RE: Get Our House In Order Posted by: harris
» RE: Get Our House In Order Posted by: YogiBear
Trailer Park
Posted by: Ouelle on Aug 10, 2006 7:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
residents have more babies than immigrants.

» RE: Trailer Park-"glorybe" Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Trailer Park-"glorybe" Posted by: harris
» RE: Trailer Park-"glorybe" Posted by: Ouelle
» Racism is alive and well... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Trailer Park Posted by: Old Skeptic
» RE: Trailer Park Posted by: Ouelle
Marxist dogmatism is not an answer. It sees life as cheap as does capitalism.
Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 10, 2006 7:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course the problem, by definition for Yates of the Monthly Review, is capitalism. That might make sense, except for the fact that every blooming type of economy in the whole world today is struggling with overpopulation. There are over 6 billion of us on a planet estimated to be able to handle 1.5-2 billion with a decent living standard.

Just like too many rats in a cage, humans have begun to feed on each other, especially our young. Iraq is a perfect example of what happens when a weak nation has a resource that a powerful nation needs.

And, yes, the answer is that we all need to learn to get along together and agree on a strategy. That's always the answer. But the question remains, how to do that. The UN can barely crawl. Nations refuse to trade the right to make war for a collective security force.

And too many people have been taught to believe that it is OK to die or to kill, when necessary. The life of animals has always been cheap. Now we treat our kind as mere animals.

Big families are not sustainable...
Posted by: Callibrarian on Aug 10, 2006 7:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least not the ones being promoted by conservative Christians---working dad, stay at home mom who home schools or sends the kids to private school. The problem: they have too much stuff and too many kids to survive a shift in the economy. Our jobs are changing from stable, decent employment with benefits to transient work where you buy your own health care. Interest only loans and ARMS are readjusting. It's harder to file bankruptcy. They've reformatted welfare. In the next five years or so, the average large family is going to struggle because there is no flexibility in their lives. When things get tight, single people can room together. Families with one or two kids can rent out a room to make ends meet, and the mother can find work. But mothers of large families will spend so much on daycare they're stuck. And when it comes to health care...When I was offered COBRA I about croaked because it was about $350 a month PER PERSON! These churches keep pushing big families, but when something happens, these families are not going to be allowed to move into the sanctuary. Watch, in a few years we'll here preachers talking about "We've seen the light!" and reversing their mandates.

Personally, I think there's plenty of space. As long as you use it well...
Posted by: Colin on Aug 10, 2006 7:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While there is no question that I support the notion that ‘a species that's too fruitful for too long will undercut its means of survival’, I will, once again, take up the point that this is not yet necessarily the case. For me, +the+ paragraph in the text that needs considering is this one:

“Redefining Progress estimated that this nation's staggering level of consumption and waste generation requires a lot more than standing room for each person. The average American's "ecological footprint" -- the theoretical area required to supply everything a person consumes and to deal with the aftermath -- is 269 global acres, almost nine times the footprint of the average person in China and more than 22 times that of the average Indian or Pakistani.

According to their analysis, the ecological footprint of the United States as a nation is bigger than the combined footprints of China, India, Brazil, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Russia, which together are home to 3 billion people. So from the planet's point of view, the birth of a single American child has the potential impact of 10 births in those countries.”

To follow that up with the line; “Jennifer Shawne believes that such statistics should be a consideration in deciding whether to reproduce: "Each child born in this country means further destruction of the planet,” I find incredible. It only means further destruction +if+ you concede the point that the only way humans can live is as they are doing now. However, that concession is clearly rubbish. We don’t have to be such greedy buggers.

The total number of people living in the world doesn’t matter much – it’s the choices that those people who are living make in regards to their lives that is key. I did some number crunching based on figures provided by http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004372.html. According to this site, the total land area on earth is 148,940,000,000 sq km’s. Now given there are 6,500,000,000 people on earth, that means if you distributed all the land on earth equally, every single man woman and child would receive 22.91 sq km’s of land each. That’s an awful lot of land to each have. However, most of that land would be useless to support life. But, the area of arable land available is 10.76% of the total land mass. That means you are looking at 16,025,944,000 sq km’s of land which, when divided equally means we would each receive 2.47 sq km’s of prime farmland each. Not enough to run a town off but more than enough for one person to provide for themselves. And, don’t worry about the squeeze – that still leaves virtually 90% of all the land on earth literally uninhabited.

The planet earth has plenty of space to accommodate human beings as the population is now and will be in 50 years. That is assuming everyone involved accepts they are part of a wider society and can’t have everything they want whenever they want it. Unfortunately, we’re just not that grown up. We do not just want anymore. Nowadays we seem to believe we have a right to actually get whatever we want, when we want it. It is precisely this problem that’s at the root of our land problems – not that we’re running out, just that we’re too selfish and thoughtless to effectively use what we already have.

Don’t believe me? Check the other Alternet articles on this subject. I’ve seen a few and whereas the subject of whether we can accommodate the people with the amount of land available is often discussed, challenges to the current utilisation of those the areas we do use are few and far between (i.e. demanding someone else doesn't have kids is fine, accepting you have to curb your own wants is not). When it is mentioned, it is in the form of the above– i.e. blank acceptance of the current methods of managing the planet we live on. +This+ is the problem.

» Plenty of Land Posted by: albrechtkrausse
RE: The Catholic church
Posted by: VisionQuest on Aug 10, 2006 7:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So why is population growth either low or negative in Catholic countries like Italy, Spain and Ireland? Clearly, there is some force other/greater than the Catholic church in countries with high birth rates.

» Yes, there is... Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: The Catholic church Posted by: mazel
» RE: The Catholic church Posted by: willymack
» RE: The Catholic church Posted by: albrechtkrausse
FLASHBACK
Posted by: mystic13 on Aug 10, 2006 7:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why am I suddenly having flashbacks of a sweaty, red hankie tied around the neck, Charlton Heston and rumors about Soylent Green?

Canada's starting to sound pretty good, right about now.

Mystic13

» RE: FLASHBACK Posted by: Rod in 83706
» RE: FLASHBACK Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: FLASHBACK Posted by: willymack
It's not the number that counts
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Aug 10, 2006 7:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether it's 400 million or 400 billion, the planet IS more than capable of sustaining us. The problem is we aren't using it.

Tidal energy. Geothermal energy. The earth's magnetic field. There are sources of energy all around this planet, yet we're not investing real money into any of it.

With clean sources of energy we could exist without polluting the environment and then there would be virtually no limit to how many people this world can hold.

I am so sick of all the wasted thought on this subject, and it's all because a bunch of rich [censored] would rather sail on their damn yachts and golf all day long. We've thrown this country trillions of dollars into debt so that the rich could have a tax cut when what we needed to do was invest those trillions into alternative energy. That would have created REAL JOBS right here in america. That's how you grow an economy. You don't just take a bunch of money and give it to the bloodcucking parasites on wall street who only care about making money, NOT about strengthening our economy. Hell, I'll bet half of Bush's tax giveaways went directly to Asia...

My point is that all of that garbage is acceptable, yet it is totally unacceptable to even contemplate spending trillions on alternative energy? Because the rich own this country and they care only about themselves. To hell with the rest of us. And that's where this whole topic of overpopulation really comes from.

This entire topic is the perfect example of how the elite sets the agenda for what we think and do. They think we are a pest. They think we are overpopulated. They think we need to be eliminated. It's just a matter of degrees, that's what they want us to think. But in reality, the whole topic is bogus.

Rate of unintended pregnancies
Posted by: judithkrain on Aug 10, 2006 8:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe the number quoted is incorrect. The Allan Gutmacher institute, which tracks all numbers related to pregnancies states that the rate of unintended pregnancies is not a third but closer to 50%, and has been for some time now.

I run a fund that pays for abortions for poor women all across the country and our numbers also agree with Guttmacher's.

» RE: ate of unintended pregnancies Posted by: Iconoclast421
» Well... Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Well... Posted by: morticia
» Does anyone else find this comment Posted by: russianblue1
To Hell In A Lot of Handbaskets.
Posted by: monkeywrench on Aug 10, 2006 8:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a sobering fact for the baby-factory evangelicals: today, the single most important factor in predicting future poverty is having children.
. . . . .

"Cold War" baby competitions between liberals and conservatives, native-born parents and immigrants? A "go forth and multiply" orgy thanks to following a Bible pronouncement that is 2000 years out of date? People being so ignorant about science and environmental issues that they think we can grow our population until you can walk across the Mississippi River on the bodies? Yep, a lot of us are nuts and will drive this country "to hell in a handbasket" – millions of handbaskets.

I hope that the advocates of unlimited growth enjoy choking, immobile traffic, longer lines at every public venue, dirtier air and water, landfills popping up in their towns and cities, shortages of even basic commodities, and social disruption like is seen in other overcrowded nations – because that is the future that we will all face if these fools get their way. Environmental collapse does not descriminate between the intelligent and the hopelessly ignorant.

RE: The Catholic church
Posted by: paintthestreets on Aug 10, 2006 8:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That has little to do with Catholicism. It is the result of many factors. 1. Birth control is not always readily available, 2. ignorance, 3. some people own small bits of land. They have many children to help with the work and also these kids will be given the land once their parents pass away.

I have had it
Posted by: Ellie1 on Aug 10, 2006 8:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christianity in all of its current forms today are all shit, and anyone (especially women) who adhere to their manipulative, anti-life control is a moron. I say anti life because they have no concern for the quality of life, only for the quantity of it. The words of jesus Christ have been manipulated and transformed by master controllers, and the followers of these a-holes are either stupid, naive, or pathetic-probably all three. If they learned to THINK FOR THEMSELVES, they wouldn't be culpable to such manipulation. THAT is why the Repukes want to limit education-an educated electorate cannot be controlled, if their education is inclusive. It is all about control of the idiot masses in this country, which is going to hell in a hand basket. I no longer consider myself a loyal American, and have not saluted the flag since Bushit was selected.

» sucker Posted by: coldeye
» RE: sucker Posted by: willymack
RE: Sex only for procreation and not for fun
Posted by: Ouelle on Aug 10, 2006 8:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have you ever inserted your penis into a womb? I don't think I know of a man who has.

» Noel Noel Posted by: coldeye
» I certainly haven't. Posted by: MatthewSavage
Use Islam as your guide
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Aug 10, 2006 9:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Over-population occurs well before the strain on resources. Studies of animal populations demonstrate this. So do the nations of Islam. In the Arab world, women are second-class citizens, who's only role is to produce sons. The result is the primary export of Islam: male suicide bombers. Reading the crapola of the religious right, one could see the day where they too will glory in the production of the same male export.

» RE: Use Islam as your guide Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Use Islam as your guide Posted by: cosmicgold
» RE: Use Islam as your guide Posted by: willymack
Ibix
Posted by: Ibix on Aug 10, 2006 9:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I strongly object to Jennifer Shawne's "last word" on the subject. Where does she get off saying that "trying to preserve a culture is futile - and even dangerous?" I'll bet she wouldn't say that about Tibetan culture! Why is our American culture fair game?

Cultures may "change and evolve", but they stay recognizable. Italian culture evolved through the Renaissance, the Baroque , etc, but stayed recognizably Italian. Japanese culture went from Heian to Tokagawa to Meiji, but always remained Japanese. The result? The world unites in rewarding those two distinct identities with fame, tourism and affection.

Well, what about our American culture? Our Euro-African fusion has given more goodies to the world in the last century than any other: jazz, skyscrapers, Hollywood, Motown, Sinatra, CalTech - and the list goes on. Why shouldn't we keep it? I am getting fed up with people - fellow liberals, no less! - telling us that we should just roll over and "diversify" into a multilingual, multicultural, latter-day Hapsburg empire, and suggesting otherwise is "racism". No, it is not. I like Danish culture, Mexican culture, Arab culture. I like all the cultures of the world - separate and distinct. And I like our American culture, too - as is. Don't you?

» RE: Ibix Posted by: ConnecttheDots
Happiness is A Warm Gun
Posted by: coldeye on Aug 10, 2006 9:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here I offer positive support for the choice to have or not have kids and you are bent out of shape. People who are anti-freedom like those who want to tell people when and how they have or don't have kids are not good people to follow. Choice leads to happiness.

I am not from Israel by the way. If I were from Israel what difference would it make? And why would you make that comment? Have a problem with people from Israel?


The US Supreme Court has held not only in abortion cases but in procreation and sterilizatiion cases cited in great detail in Roe v Wade and subsequent abortion decisions and gay rights cases that the government in the USA can't dictate these controls on the right to have or not have kids in a free society. It is ironic as always to see the "open-minded" liberals of Alternet acting like Maoists or the eugenicists hired by the German national socialist party.

I like living in a free society where the decision to have kids is not up to the government. Do you? If you don't, there are many places you could go too. Like Iran. Iran hates America and Israel, so you might like it there. Unlike China, they ban abortion, but I think women can get them anyway unofficially.

[I usually do not request people to leave the country, by the way, but when they express total unhappiness with the benefits of living in the greatest nation in the world, the USA, I merely suggest that there are totalitarian US-hating nations like Venezuela, Cuba or Iran where they might find people who share their hate-filled opinions.]

» RE: Happiness is A Warm Gun Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: Happiness is A Warm Gun Posted by: willymack
Cry0fan lives!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 10, 2006 9:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the main Republican political efforts is to divide their opposition into little camps that can then be easily marginalized - so you see 'wedge issues' played over and over. One example is attempting to pit 'environmentalists' against 'immigrants', 'white liberal groups' against 'black religious groups', etc. etc. However, the progressives have a much better record of inclusiveness and looking out for everyone in the country, while Republicans really just serve the top 0.1% of the wealthiest families in the country - that's why they want to do away with taxes on multimillion-dollar inheritances; they'd rather see that money in an offshore Cayman Island tax haven than in the US Treasury. Even more ridiculous, middle and low income people do pay taxes - which are also recycled to the Caymans via no-bid contracts delivered to the likes of Halliburton and Bechtel.

God is a Dirty Old Man
Posted by: coldeye on Aug 10, 2006 9:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What does "God" have to do with fertilization of eggs? Does "God" worry about whatever "beings" exist on 100 million planets where reproduction has nothing to do with our biological formats?

I always love how people who believe in "God" as a separate being make this thing such a busy body. I thought Christianity and Judaism at least believe in human freedom. Freedom to do good. Freedom to do bad.

» RE: God is a Dirty Old Man Posted by: spitty
» Fear and lies! Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: God is a Dirty Old Man Posted by: willymack
The population problem has a non-intuitive solution
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 10, 2006 9:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Numerous people who look at birth rates draw strong parallels between the 'economic liberation' of women and reduced birth rates. Women who are economically independent tend to have fewer children and they have them later in life. Women who live under repressive male authority, whether in a Taleban society or a ultraconservative religious US family, are the ones who are impregnated at age 18 and are more or less forced to have children every year or so, because their domineering husbands think birth control is sinful. So, it seems that the people who are doing the most for a sane population strategy are those who advocate for women's rights and women's education, and access to birth control for both men and women.

There is a historical hangover here, to - in the days before antibiotics and modern health care, only one in three children might have survived to adulthood. In addition, family farms were common in the past and that also encouraged large families to provide a big workforce. We now live in a different world, and so we need new approaches.

RE: Secular people are too vocal and want sex without consequence
Posted by: Archtop on Aug 10, 2006 10:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Andy, Andy Kaufman... is that you. Man your just as silly as ever, but I thought you gave up the Latka routine.

Sadly...
Posted by: Ktflake on Aug 10, 2006 10:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
anyone who does not understand the implications of unconstrained population growth has is dooming the globe to implosion. Okay, Malthus was an elitist asshole. Fine. Marx called him a "buffoon." Hilarious and true. But, the one things Malthus did, with no principals of ecology to work with, is delineate the concept of CARRYING CAPACITY. You see, there is a finite area upon which we can live, grow crops, and dump waste. Hence, Ehrlich proposed the IPAT (Impact on earth=Population x Affluence x Technology). Currently, we suffer from an uneven distribution of resources (Marx's critique). We could, theoretically, feed everyone on this planet with enough calories to keep them from starvation. However, as population grows, waste increases, the need to make land more productive increases (meaning more herbicides, pesticide, genetic engineering, etc), more land will need to be made available for people to live on, we'll cut into wild habitats, destroy the food chain, mass extinction will follow, including our own, not to mention polution of water resources (yeah, we need that and desalinization ain't an option) and the impact on aerable soil (desertification will follow intensified farming practices). So, even though right now we may be able to feed everyone with the resources available, and we may be able to feed another couple billion more people, we will eventually hit that wall of ecological carrying capacity. Damn, reality. Like global warming, we need to take a more proactive approach instead of waiting until things get real bad (in probably another 100 years or so). The best we could do is not force birth control on the poor or third world--but cut our consumption here in the US and in other first world countries. Then we need to take steps to curb global warming, ensure that maintain enough aerable land for future generations, and maintain clean water supplies. But, all that will be for naught if at some point along the way we don't stop breeding like a bunch of arrogant assholes.

Too Many People
Posted by: worksg on Aug 10, 2006 10:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are now about 6.5 billion people in the world. We are using up many of the earths's resources faster than they can replaced. This is obviously not sustainable and must lead to a collapse. Computer simulations show that this collapse will happen in this century, perhaps in some of our lifetimes. See "Limits to Growth: the 30-Year Update" by Meadows, Randers and Meadows for details. Don't you really think it's time to be responsible about reproduction?

WE MUST TAKE DRASTIC MEASURES!!!!!!!
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Aug 10, 2006 10:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great article! And thank you to Alternet for exposing both sides ofthis issue! As ignorant as one side really is, for progressives to critically think, it is important for to keep in touch with what the other side is saying. We have to know what we are up against, and I found all this very interesting. Wow! Is that Buchanan guy scarey or what?!?
We have a world problem, not just a national one, but as pointed out in the article, the huge per-capita environmental footprint in a society with no concern for future generations, in combination with a rapidly increasing population is extremely scarey. And throw in the religious right's gaining influence on our society and government; combined with their spreading of ignorance and encouragement at increasing population makes thing even scarier!
The fact of the matter is that we passed carrying capacity for a human population wanting to live environmentally-damaging lifestyles some time ago. I would estimate that if all the worlds inhabitants were to live the lifestyle of the average Unitedstatesian, the world might support a billion of us, that is, assuming the carbon levels didn't eventually wreak havock. I believe the world might support the current population if humans were to live low-technology lifestyles typical of what the indigenous populations lived before they were all-but eliminated. Now, keep in mind that I am only looking at this from a human standpoint. Wildlife populations are greatly diminished with that many humans competing for resources, and that is just not right in my opinion.
Regardless of the actual numbers, it is obvious the world can't continue to support our current population, and people aren't changing their lifestyles to address the problem. In fact the fools are doing the opposite! Therefore, we must address the population issue with what many would consider drastic measures.
Apart from all the strict environmental measures we need to take for our survival, we must reduce population now or their will be even more suffering later. The first step should be legislation limiting the number of children per individual to two (therefore a couple could only have two). I don't believe forced abortion would be ethical, but if a person were to break the law that protects them from themselves by having more than two offspring, then there would be mandatory sterilization. In addition, progressives must get in control of the government to save the fools from themselves and start a massive education campaign encouraging people to only have one child, while guaranteeing that people will have their needs met when they get old. This guarantee will be necessary because many feel inclined to have more children to assure they will be cared for when they get old. We could offset the demographic problem of lower birth rates (which makes it difficult to guarantee that basic needs for the aged will be met by the taxes of the population) by allowing enough immigration to increase the tax base.
These kinds of things need to be done worldwide; that is in the best interests of Unitedstatesians, and of those with whom we should be sharing the planet. So, we need to quit exploiting entire countries and offer some true goodwill so their economies will improve, because no country can take these measures without decent financial situations. It is a fact that when countries prosper, birth rates decline, so we need to be nice to other countries and help them have decent lives too. Wow, we'd even have less terrorism then; what a radical concept!!
Does it sound cruel or intrusive to protect people from themselves? I think it sounds more cruel to allow people to create famine, pestilence and war for future generations. We confront reality now, or pass off a hell of a lot of suffering to our children. That's the fact of the matter!

» The Constitution Party Posted by: Ktflake
» Inner peace Posted by: WhuThe?!?
Have you heard of China?
Posted by: Babushka on Aug 10, 2006 11:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"By mid-October of this year, the world's third most populous nation will hit 300 million inhabitants."

Ummmm.....the US is NOT the world's most populous nation.....

» RE: Have you heard of China? Posted by: FauxPorteno
Population
Posted by: willymack on Aug 10, 2006 11:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorjourner mentioned that it'd be possible for our population to expand to densities similar to India and China. Is that what we want? I think not. I've been to Hong Kong, Manila Port au Prince and other grossly overpopulated places, and it wasn't a pretty sight. We don't want to Brooklynize the USA, believe me.

Ecological Footprints
Posted by: Bic Pentameter on Aug 10, 2006 12:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
About 5 years ago I read an article comparing an American family of four to a Czech family. I don't remember that they referred to a 'footprint', but the factor was 80 to 1. I think it was in National Geographic.

They considered energy used to drive to work, school and the supermarket; packaging, eating at fast-food places, consumer goods, heating and air conditioning, etc.

The Czech family never ate fast food. They purchased fresh produce at the local outdoor market or in small shops within walking distance. They took a little 2 wheeled shopping cart with them and provided a few bags that they re-used, but the produce was not processed or packaged at all. They had no air conditioning, but fortunately it wasn't real hot. They rarely rode in a car.

Somehow, I think that the Czech standard of living is at least on a par with Pakistan, if not more affluent. Yet the factor quoted here is 22 to 1.

Either way, it seems intuitively obvious that the planet cannot support 6.5 billion (and growing) in a manner anything like that to which suburban Americans have become accustomed.

What sort of disingenuous offer do we hold out to others in this world as we ask them to yield to the globalization of markets and accept democracy? Will we ever be concerned for them as anything other than a support mechanism for our own lifestyle, or grist for the mills of capitalism? Even if we as individuals have the best of intentions, can we ever give the world what we have? Or, might we attempt to dominate the world to protect what we have and guard it mostly for ourselves?

» RE: cological Footprints Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: cological Footprints Posted by: hotlipsin61
» RE: cological Footprints Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Nature Always Wins
Posted by: thehousedog on Aug 10, 2006 12:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the next 10 years, or less, we will see the beginnings of abrupt climate change. Greenhouse gas issues and the melting poles will provide the beginnings of a new time on this planet. The issues of over population will seem like small potatoes compared to the devestation and famine that will happen when there is no food to feed all these mouths. Whatever wars come as a result of that will certainly have an impact on hundreds of millions of people. The end result will be too horrible to imagine. Those who survive may be fewer in number and perhaps humbled by the experience and perhaps even learn to change their ways. Could also mean a reduced demand for gas so we'd still be driving our SUVs though...

» Cause of Global Warming Posted by: coldeye
Enough of "Spitty"
Posted by: HeidiLockwood on Aug 10, 2006 12:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's get this phony pervert off the air.

» RE: nough of "Spitty" Posted by: spittybanned
brilliant!
Posted by: Ktflake on Aug 10, 2006 1:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Golly Gee...I can see your homeschooling has paid off with your ability to spell and make sense. I think you need to check your facts, every singe state/country that has mandated abstinence only education has higher rates of teen pregnancy, STDs, and abortion. Yet, more "liberal" (not really, just realistic) states and countries have lower of all of the above. Please stop eating rabbit droppings.

» What happened? Posted by: Ktflake
» RE: What happened? Posted by: crisman
» RE: What happened? Posted by: MatthewSavage
» Happened to me too. Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: What happened? Posted by: mazel
Sooooo
Posted by: russianblue1 on Aug 10, 2006 1:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when can I expect your check in my mailbox for my moving fund ('cause if you want me out, ya gotta contribute!)????

BTW, I pick France and you can keep your Red Jesusland!!

» This was a response to "spitty" Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: This was a response to "spitty" Posted by: spittybanned
» RE: This was a response to "spitty" Posted by: spittybanned
2 is too many
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 10, 2006 1:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sound shocking? As long as we keep believing we have to kill to get our point across,have wealth,and power, 2 humans is too many.
I'm afraid my brothers and sisters as long as you put your faith into what you can 'make' over what has been 'created', 2 is too many humans.
As long as we continue to live completely out of balance with all of the natural World,always digging up,drilling down and carving out the Planet replacing Apple Orchards with auto dealerships, 2 is too many.
As long as we continue to disrespect eachother,harbour greed,anger,hatred and lust for wealth,that gives way to the ill-conceived notion that 'some are better than others'. 2 is too many humans.
As long as we hold true to the 'corperate model' and designate whole tracts of land to industrial comcerns,without regard to the damages cause by such endeavours,for the sole purpose of aquiring wealth, 2 is too many.
If,however, we truly change our destiny,buy respecting the Earth and All That Call It Home, make All Decisions by listening to All The People's Voice,with a mind towards the 7th
Generation to come. If we were to stop thinking of ourselves
as white,black,Islamic, Christian,rich,poor,diseased or healthy, then we might have room for everyone. Otherwise,
2 IS TOO MANY.

» RE: 2 is too many Posted by: spittybanned
» RE: 2 is too many Posted by: jeffrey7
As for me
Posted by: wisewebwoman on Aug 10, 2006 1:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I subscribe to the Monty Python philosophy of life - every sperm is sacred.
Right.
And I believe in Gaia - the self-correcting universe that we so tightly inhabit to the ruin of other species.
The culling has begun folks, it started with the Crusades, the great witch hunts of Europe and US gobbled up close to 6 million women, followed by the famines (Ireland alone - another 6 million). World flu. Jewish Holocaust. Japan nuclear bombed. And today, on going tsunamis, catch those floods in India lately anyone, how many homeless and moving? And Duhbya is helping greatly with the invasion and deathtolls of weaker nations, aiding and abetting Israel behind the scenes, eyes on the big one - annihilation of Iran and Syria with the re-introduction of nukulars.
Overpopulation has all been taken care of, folks. Why worry? Be happy! The culling has only just begun. Duck, cover and don't forget the duct tape.

» RE: As for me Posted by: constantreader
» RE: As for me Posted by: DaBear
RE: ah, another example of overclass propaganda
Posted by: LMNOP on Aug 10, 2006 1:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Everything is going JUST FINE according to the neoliberal upper class"

Neoliberals? You must mean people like Zell Miller and Lieberman. We call them conservatives. You don't know what liberals want because our voice is not heard in the media and are views are not effectively represented in the government. What you think that you know about liberals all came from bigoted conservatives reading carefully orchaestrated talking points.

» Smear smear Posted by: coldeye
Anyone who seriously thinks the US is overpopulated
Posted by: sln70 on Aug 10, 2006 3:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
has obviously never driven cross-country.

There's a LOT of gerenspace out there, folks. Seriously. Get out of the city for a week or two. See some things.

» Greenspace or farmland? Posted by: Callibrarian
That "greenspace" out there?
Posted by: DaBear on Aug 10, 2006 3:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having traveled the US extensively in the last decade and a half (on foot, via auto, via train, and only once or twice via plane) I can tell you there is no "greenspace" out there. Cities and unsustainable burbs are sprawling everywhere, even in places that shouldnt be supporting such growth. "Get out of the city..." gimme a break.

» RE: That "greenspace" out there? Posted by: albrechtkrausse
CRAZY
Posted by: adeptlyabrasive on Aug 10, 2006 4:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Immigrants are mostly unskilled, and they have unskilled children."
WHAT? What do you consider to be a "skilled child"?! I understand that educated people will most often ensure that their children will also be, but this comment totally disregards all of the successful children of immigrants in this country that contribute way more to society than the redneck brats that are being churned out at an astounding rate by churchies like this idiot.

Immigration equals continued population growth
Posted by: Old Skeptic on Aug 10, 2006 5:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we want to limit the growth of our population, we should reduce the rate of immigration. According to the Census Bureau, our population is growing as fast as it is largely because of immigration, both legal and illegal. The US accepts over 1 million legal immigrants every year. Another million or so may sneak in illegally. No other country in the world accepts so many immigrants.

We should reduce our rate of legal immigration by about 50% and take steps to eliminate illegal immigration altogether. One way to accomplish that would be to crack down hard on the employers of illegal aliens. Without the magnet of jobs, there would be less incentive for illegals to come here. Combine strict enforcement of laws against hiring illegals with tripling the size of the Border Patrol along our southern border (haven't heard of many Canadians trying to sneak in) and we should be able to sharply reduce the growth of our population.

RE: ah, another example of overclass propaganda
Posted by: jtalley on Aug 10, 2006 7:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know Stan Cox, and I gotta tell you folks, the idea that Stan is a neoliberal, that he's a member of or apologist for the "overclass" is as ludicrous as saying the Marquis de Sade is The Church Lady. Try reading some of the guy's other pieces on Alternet.

» RE: HEY SPITTY- YOU ARE SO Posted by: SamFox
» RE: HEY SPITTY- YOU ARE SO Posted by: SamFox
» RE: HEY SPITTY- YOU ARE SO Posted by: spittybanned
Over-population
Posted by: Dianka on Aug 10, 2006 9:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You could say that we have some "moderating" influences, concerning population growth. Our economy is a disaster: we don't have free enterprise, but rather, increasingly unrestrained exploitation resulting in higher pricesbut lower wages. The quality of life/economic well-being of most Americans has been on a downhill slide for over a quarter of a century. The social safety net was shredded, so once a family falls into poverty, it is far more unlikely that they will be able to get out. As a direct refult of our celebrated welfare reforms, the life expectancy of the average poor American has been rapidly declining, and America's poor now has the highest infant mortality rate among Western industrialized nations. Other factors include the inaccessibility of insurance/inadequate insurance, leaving millions without basic medical care. Due to a range of factors, this isn't likely to change, at least for a long time.

Bill Slavick
Posted by: william.slavick on Aug 10, 2006 9:51 PM   
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Just last week I read, in some respectable place, that over the next few years our falling birth rate would reduce the US population 60 million but for 30 million in documented and undocumented immigrants. Any reduction threatens social security funding for boomers, of course. On population, I start with good Catholic thinking: God did not make this the most bountiful place on earth to be hogged by only 300 million human beings, especially when billions elsewhere are starving. If we were spending our surplus wealth on extricating them from poverty rather than arms to kill and dominate them. . . .

» God Is Not A Home Contractor Posted by: coldeye
» RE: God Is Not A Home Contractor Posted by: spittybanned
A short lesson for stupid people
Posted by: HeroesAll on Aug 10, 2006 11:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, quite inflammatory, I know. But I want all the baseless optimists to pay attention. Afterwards, they can try rebutting any of my contentions. If they can provide evidence and logic, I'll concede.

Okay, to those who say "there's plenty of land out there for millions of new Americans, all we need to do is fill it." You're really, really, really, wrong. Completely. Try to keep up:

1) Imagine you've got another 1 million people. Where does the food come from? If you live in a city, you're already living over the most productive land. It's been built on and paved and removed from agriculture. Farming then moves to more and more marginal land (which means less food value return per acre, very roughly).

2) So, we use the marginal land, then where does the water come from? Most farming is heavily irrigated. A large proportion of the water comes from 'fossil' aquifers: they don't recharge, so once it's gone it's gone. Rivers have similar problems. The world is coming to a major water shortage in the next few years/decades.

3) If you can find the water, where does the fertiliser come from? Modern agribusiness relies heavily on added fertiliser and chemicals (pesticides and herbicides). These are usually made from oil and gas. Which we're starting to run short of, and that's a shortage that will only get worse.

4) If you can find the chemicals, what do you do about the runoff? Rivers and oceans are becoming increasingly poisoned by runoff. And when I say poisoned, I don't just mean that it tastes nasty, I mean seriously poisoned. The world's oceans are in crisis. The stocks of large fish are starting to disappear altogether due to overfishing, runoffs are killing things further down the food chain, and we're getting a resurgence of something primitive that was king of the oceans about 2.7 billion years ago. The oceans are devolving.

5) Even if you get this far, there may not even be any soil to farm in. Overcultivating has resulted in the loss of huge masses of topsoil. You can't grow food in sand, and you can't grow food on rock.

6) Then, then, there's the question of the inordinately greedy consumption of other precious resources, led by countries like the US and Australia. There's not enough of many things to go around, and we're fast running out of what's left.

In conclusion, then, we've already seriously overloaded the carrying capacity of the planet. Here's a start on what we have to do:

a) Comprehensive sex education, and plentiful access to contraception, everywhere.

b) Fight for equality for women everywhere, because that's the prime determinant of family size. The more equality women have, the less children they choose to have. It operates in tribal societies as well, so it's not just technological.

c) Make a massive ans sustained change in our agriculture patterns. No beef, all organic sustainable farming, and return to smallholder farms, not giant agri-combines.

d) Make a massive and sustained change in our lives. Make it law. We must cut down our profligate waste, or children born now may have to face social collapse, starvation, and all sorts of mass die-offs.

Now, ladies and gentlemen, take your best shots.

» RE: A short lesson for stupid people Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Baby Fever!
Posted by: the_contrarian on Aug 11, 2006 7:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of Nancy Campbell's other reasons for having lots of babies, from her web site:

* I'll have more people to love.
* I'll have more hands to help.
* My children think I'm beautiful no matter how I look.
* The more children we have, the more they entertain one another.
* It's an honor for the Lord to use my womb again.
* My children help me surrender the selfish desires of my flesh.
* Jesus said that when we welcome a little child into our home and family we are actually welcoming Him. I don't want to spurn Jesus.
* We still have an empty seat in our van, and we'd like to fill it!
* There will be more people to pay for the aged's social security benefits.
* It sure is nice to kiss and smell a little one again. Their scent is so sweet.
* Babies are future dish washers!
* Babies are a lot more entertaining than TV.
* So I can buy cute baby and children's clothes, even if it's at a yard sale.
* My body was created for this purpose.

Yikes!

http://barrelhousemag.blogspot.com/

» She's demented Posted by: Ouelle
» A bit of trivia for the record... Posted by: HeidiLockwood
It would seem population control is a touchy subject
Posted by: spittybanned on Aug 11, 2006 9:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Forgive me as I was banned previously but I have now returned to speak another day.

I think why population control is mentally hurtful to alot of people is because its origins are wrapped snuggly in a warm blanket called eugenics. Most humans fear this. I think I will continue to advocate the self-control of one's loins. Don't tell me I have too many children or too few. Sadly human gestation is estimated at 9mos. It takes a long time for a baby to be birthed. This is one draw being creating more human mammalian creatures. At least are faster than elephants...

» Uptight people Posted by: Ouelle
» RE: Uptight people Posted by: spittybanned
Drastic times call for drastic measures
Posted by: truthteller on Aug 11, 2006 10:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This discussion is the place to post what I have been advocating for awhile now. Agreeing with all those who list why we have too many people in this country and World we must take the following steps.

1) Everyone living today will be taken care of as well as possible, regardless of handicap or state of health. There will be no "Soylent Green" scenario. It is the only humane way to be.

2) Even one child per every couple is too much to reduce World population. Given estimates by authors like Richard Heinberg and Jim Kunstler, we probably only have about a generation to get our population down below a pre-industrial revolution level of under 2 bil. We must therefore come up with an equitable way to ration reproduction to 1 in 5 COUPLES, as in married and faithful. It has to be based on rational health considerations (if you carry a trait for something like Huntington's disease you probably won't be allowed to reproduce). This can be accomplished by a lottery of eligible people between 25 and 40 with eligibility determined by physical exam and genetic screening prior to their 18th birthday.

3) Prohibit marriage under the age of 21 and childbearing before age 25 and after 40 (to try and ensure mature and stable families), and limit it to one surviving child per couple (or one surviving pregnancy in those RARE cases of naturally occuring multiple births.

4) Only one sibling per family will be eligible to reproduce (this will prevent the wacko fundi breeders with 10 kids from hogging the reproductive rolls). Those siblings physically qualified to reproduce will have to decide amongst themselves which one will reproduce. The others can be supportive aunts and uncles.

5) There will need to be forced sterilizations and abortions, no getting around it, we have waited too long to take action; drastic measures are needed.

6) There should be many and generous benefits and tax breaks to those who are willing to adopt, especially special needs children. If you love kids and want to raise many, this is the route to go.

7) No more artificial ways to get pregnant. End the infertility industry. If you can't get pregnant the traditional way, there is probably something biologically wrong with one of you and not contributing to the gene pool is probably a good thing.

8) We need to redefine what we mean by "family". Those who will not be reproducing should consider becoming part of "intentional communities" of like-minded people for a sense of belonging, raising the few children born together for socialization. See the Fellowship for Intentional Community's web site "www.ic.org" for the numerous such communities in the U. S. and around the world.

I know I will be roundly denouced. I'm sorry, we have not heeded the many warnings we have been getting since the release of the original "Limits to Growth" report in 1972.

In case you're wondering, I made the decision in college that I did not want to add to the population problem and would not have kids. That decision probably cost me getting married. An unfortunate outcome, but with internet dating, one that might still be overcome. I also decided that I didn't want to raise kids at all and concentrate on other things, like political activism, which is why I never married a woman with kids. I feel that raising kids is very important, and that if you want to do that you need to make it the primary focus of that time in your life, something I was and am not prepared to do. To each his own when it comes to that. For those who want children in their lives and will not be allowed to procreate, there is always Big Brothers/Big Sisters and other similar worthy organizations.

We have waited too long for other than drastic action. We must have the discussion, and I will not be shouted down.

» That's all you've got? Posted by: truthteller
» RE: That's all you've got? Posted by: ishkabibble
» I can see it now... Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» I love #7. Posted by: WhatNow?
» And I neglected to mention... Posted by: HeidiLockwood
Standard of LIving
Posted by: rdf on Aug 11, 2006 2:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The issue is not how many people can the US support, but how many people at what standard of living?

As everyone realizes by now it is impossible for the entire world to live at the standard set by the US. Materials shortages are already becoming a problem. So how is a growing US going to maintain its standard in the face of pressures from the rest of the world.

Just one example, China is planning to build new urban housing for 400,000,000 people over the next decade. This is equivalent to replacing all the housing in the US over the next seven years. Where are they going to get the concrete and steel needed for this? How about all the other materials to support power, roads, water, etc.

Capitalism is based upon continual growth and an infinite supply of raw materials (and a no-cost place to put the waste), this is an unsustainable model. Very few economists are willing to discuss this. One who is, is Herman Daly. Read a short version of his ideas here:
Steady-State Economics

» RE: Standard of LIving Posted by: JPHickey
» an unsustainable model Posted by: CajunCountry
RELIGION IS THE WORLD'S FIRST INDUSTRY
Posted by: Roverton on Aug 12, 2006 1:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can you run a business without tomorrow's customers? If you're in the business of making things: Products, goods, belief systems - then it's just a hop, skip and a jump on over to manufacturing your own customers.

Can't afford to have evolution up there side by side with the concept of Brand Loyalty. Not good for business. We've got bills to pay. Our overhead is huge. Just look at how we're dressed.

Who's that on the other line? God? Take a message because I'm on with my accountant right now...

Hope for the Hopeless ie. us
Posted by: moenbailey on Aug 12, 2006 4:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As we lose our country, our freedom, etc., it is important to focus on the positives. Now I must say my wife and I have no children. We have no horse in the race. We do have many beautiful nieces and nephews who will suffer horribly. It makes us very sad! But, back to positives.

Some of the most screwed up human beings I have ever known were the larva of retarded conservative religious types. At 47 years of age I have been around the block a couple times. (I don't care who you are take a second seat) I have followed one of my best high school friends into a crack house (I was no angel, but no crack) to try and figure out what could be done to help him slow down. I have been on TV for christian organizations and not been on TV for everything in between.

I have seen that the larva of christian fundamentalists often don't turn out as their parents plan. One of my favorites is the sister of a college friend whose father was a pro life minister. His daughter had sex with a lot of guys (a lot!), and when she got pregnant, she was whisked away for an abortion faster than you can say "christian hypocrite." But the amount of children of "christian freaks" that turned out to be what the "christian freaks" would deem losers is truly amazing. I have personally witnessed dozens. Some I had no part in their path to self destruction. (Or even worse patental embarassment) Not that this will change for a moment what is going to happen to all of us, but it's nice to know that their prodiginal failure gnaws at their non-eternal souls causing them to beat their christian wives and pets. (I don't condone hurting pets.)

what is the cost
Posted by: moenbailey on Aug 12, 2006 6:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since you have decided that so many people should work their lives away to pay for someone else's retirement. How many people should work to perpetuate the fraud and for how long?

How long? How many?

The lie of present day Social Security is that the current generation pays for the generation in front of it. That is a ponzi scheme. The ponzi scheme that is supported by politicians who wanted to squander a generations money at the expense of the next generation. I support Social Security not fraud.

A comment regarding comments
Posted by: mazel on Aug 13, 2006 5:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I enjoy reading the comments on Alternet as much as the articles. I am usually reading the daily edition so early there are very few posted, so I usually check back in on the weekend to read the comments. I was pretty surprised to come in on Sunday to find one I had posted on this story had been deleted, but I could tell by reading the other comments that something had gone on in my absence and several posts were deleted due to content. I'm assuming, but am not certain, mine was somehow deleted accidently. If it was done intentionally I would appreciate an explanation.

I respect Alternet's right to delete posts they find inappropriate, but I think for the readers' sakes they should remove all responses to those comments as well. Most don't make a lot of sense out of the context of the original posts, and it would also have the added effect of robbing the trolls of the satisfaction they get from reading the responses. I think this is a suggestion worth considering. Thanks.

Too Many People Already
Posted by: Bat Leaper on Aug 13, 2006 2:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The current human population is steadily destroying the planet. Only a century ago, South Asia had the most astonishing variety of wildlife in the planet. The forests of Guatemala are being turned into cow pastures. The oceans are turning into polluted, sterile puddles. In the USA, a million acres a year disappears under concrete and asphalt, its ecology completely destroyed.

The population of the Earth needs to be cut by 2/3 as quickly as possible, or nothing of nature will survive.

Fruit of the Womb Indeed
Posted by: frustrated on Aug 14, 2006 10:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most laughable part of hearing some biblethumper say it's their holy duty to reproduce is that more often than not the couples you hear about on the news having multiple births due to fertility treatment are heavily religious.

God's plan was for them to NOT have children. How blasphemous of them! We need to report them to the Religious Police!!

Not enough space for everything
Posted by: truthteller on Aug 14, 2006 12:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These replies are limited, and I did have to edit my original remarks. I think the important thing is to get the discussion points out there. I start from a couple of premises. WORLD population is about 5 billon people beyond the carrying capacity of the planet without massive inputs of fossile fuel energy and fertilizer. Second, the average U. S. citizen consumes 30 times the resources of the average 3rd World resident. Ergo, our impact on the World's resources and pollution is 30 times that of say a peasant in Mexico or India, and we need to reduce our population and consumption accordingly.

Real carrying capacity is based on how many people can live on the land without those massive artificial inputs, on naturally occuring rain, food grown locally,etc. We're headed for a great fall. You can deny global warming, peak oil, fresh water shortages, etc., but that doesn't make them go away. What I outline is the difference between a potentially orderly, if yes, less than totally democratic draw-down of World population, and a totally tragic, wrenching and dismal mass die-off caused by mass starvation and dehydration, of people freezing to death in colder climates for lack of heating fuel, or roasting to death in tropical ones due to greatly elevated Summer temperatures from global warming and increased CO2 levels; resource wars and riots (like Rwanda, only World-wide on a massive scale); receding coastlines caused by rising sea levels that give people fewer places to seek higher ground, and other unforeseen problems.

All this is very well documented by authors and scientific reports cited by me and others here, and in articles on this site and other sites. If you choose to deny the validity of the science I can't stop you, but I can try and stop you from perpetuating the lies that all is well and we can keep popping out crumb snatchers willy nilly and as many as we like. I'm trying to come up with a reasonable answer to the most critical problem of our time, the problem from which most of our other problems stem. Bear in mind, the population is going to contract. The question is: Do we take Worldwide action, however unpleasant, or politically unpopular now, or do we watch just about everything and everyone we love, cherrish and value be destroyed by our short-sighted, selfish greed?

Elites wish to limit population
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Aug 15, 2006 11:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Notice the 'problem' of over-population is always associated with the 'undesireables' (India, China, Africa, Evangelicals, White Trash, Catholics, Mexicans, Retards, etc.) This is the same WASP-nonsense that has been talked about for centuries. Before it was 'concern' for the birthrate of those Catholics. Then its was the 'serious' complications of all those Eastern European and Italian immigrants. Now its the 'mexican problem'. Eugenics, population control, forced abortions, force sterilization, environmentalism, or propaganda. Its all a plan of the elites who get scared that the 'others' will out-breed them. There is plenty of food and plenty of land. The elites just want more than their fair share and maintain their status as world dominators.

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