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Lobbying for Armageddon

Some influential evangelical leaders are lobbying for an attack on Iran. But it's not about geopolitics -- it's about bringing about the End Times.
August 3, 2006  |  
 
 
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In a perfect world, a reporter at last week's press conference with George Bush and Tony Blair would have asked Bush, in the presence of his principal European ally, if he believes the European Union is the Antichrist.

Although it sounds like the kind of Pat Robertson lunacy that makes even the wingnuts run for the nearest exit, it's a question Bush should be forced to answer. Bush and other leading Republicans have lined up behind a growing movement of Christian Zionists for whom a European Antichrist figures prominently in an end-times scenario. So they should be forced to explain to the rest of us why they're courting the votes of people who believe our allies are evil incarnate. Could it be that the central requirement for their breathlessly anticipated Armageddon -- that the United States confront Iran -- happens to dovetail so nicely with the neoconservative war agenda?

At the center of it all is Pastor John Hagee, a popular televangelist who leads the 18,000-member Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas. While Hagee has long prophesized about the end times, he ratcheted up his rhetoric this year with the publication of his book, "Jerusalem Countdown," in which he argues that a confrontation with Iran is a necessary precondition for Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ. In the best-selling book, Hagee insists that the United States must join Israel in a preemptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West. Shortly after the book's publication, he launched Christians United for Israel (CUFI), which, as the Christian version of the powerful American Israel Public Affairs Committee, he said would cause "a political earthquake."

At CUFI's kick-off banquet at the Washington Hilton, attended by over 3,500 members, Republican support for both Hagee's effort and his drumbeat for war with Iran were on full view. Republican National Committee Chair Ken Mehlman told the group that "no regime is more central to the global jihad" than Iran. Just two days before, Newt Gingrich and John McCain made the rounds of the Sunday talk shows to sound the same message, leading Benny Elon, a member of the Israeli Knesset, to comment to the Jerusalem Post that their remarks originated with Hagee. Rick Santorum and Sam Brownback also addressed the group, and Bush sent words of support to the gathering. Republicans, and even some Democrats, spoke at CUFI events to show their "support for Israel." But while public and media attention was on the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, Hagee's focus continued to be on Iran.

While the crisis at the Israel-Lebanon border drew more mainstream media attention to CUFI's activities, Hagee's supporters have long known that leading Republicans are listening. Rabbi Daniel Lapin, a prominent Jewish ally of the evangelical right (and friend of Jack Abramoff) has said that Hagee "without question, yes, absolutely" has the ear of the White House. Hagee's annual Night to Honor Israel at his church has drawn prominent Republicans, including Tom DeLay, who was the keynote speaker in 2002.

Although Republicans would never admit it -- they claim their support for Christian Zionists like Hagee is based on their own support for Israel -- it is clear that they know they need the votes of this constituency to win. In the same way that Karl Rove courted conservative evangelicals in 2004 by appealing to their homophobia, Republican campaign rhetoric for 2006 and 2008 has already shown signs of playing to voters who have been hearing hype for a war with Iran for months -- at church.

While Washington insiders wonder what it means when Republicans like Mehlman and presidential aspirants Gingrich and McCain finger Iran as the central player in an epic clash of civilizations, Hagee already has spent months mobilizing the shock troops in support of another war. As diplomats, experts and pundits debate how many years Iran will need to develop a viable nuclear weapon, Hagee says the mullahs already possess the means to destroy Israel and America. And although Bush insists that diplomatic options are still on the table, Hagee has dismissed pussyfooting diplomacy and primed his followers for a conflagration.

Hagee wields "a very large megaphone" that reaches "a very large group of people," said Rabbi James Rudin of the American Jewish Committee, who has studied the Christian right for 30 years. With CUFI, the pastor has exponentially expanded the reach of his megaphone beyond his television audience. Thanks to the viral marketing made possible by the hundreds of evangelical leaders who have signed on to his new organization, his warmongering has rippled through megachurches across America for months. Hagee calls pastors "the spiritual generals of America," an appropriate phrase given his reliance on them to rally their troops behind his message.

The CUFI board of directors includes the Rev. Jerry Falwell, former Republican presidential candidate and religious right activist Gary Bauer, and George Morrison, pastor of the 8,000-member Faith Bible Chapel in Arvada, Colo., and chairman of the board of Promise Keepers. Rod Parsley, the Ohio televangelist who is rapidly becoming a major political player in the Christian right, signed on to be a regional director.

For Hagee's new project, his influence in Washington is probably less important than his influence over his audience. With the clout of his listeners, he can serve Bush administration hawks by firing up grassroots support for a military strike against Iran. Over 700,000 people purchased his book, "Jerusalem Countdown," and countless more have heard him promote it on Christian radio and television programming. Dramatic, doomsday advertising has been heard by listeners of Christian media as well as on Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly's radio programs. The pages of "Jerusalem Countdown" provide a peculiar mix of biblical prophecy, purported inside information from Israeli government officials and a mixed-up, pared-down lesson in nuclear physics.

"I wrote this book in April 2005, and when people read it, they will think I wrote it late last night after the FOX News report," says the author without a trace of irony. "It's that close to where we are and beyond."

Hagee speaks simultaneously to two audiences about Iran's nuclear capabilities: one that fears a terrorist attack by Iran and another that embraces a biblically mandated apocalypse. To impress the fearful, he mimics Bush's deceptions about Iraq's capacity to attack the United States with weapons of mass destruction, Condoleezza Rice's warnings of mushroom clouds, and Dick Cheney's dissembling about an alliance between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida. Comparing Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to Hitler, Hagee argues that Iran's development of nuclear weapons must be stopped to protect America and Israel from a nuclear attack. Preying on legitimate worries about terrorism, and invoking 9/11, he vividly describes a supposed Iranian-led plan to simultaneously explode nuclear suitcase bombs in seven American cities, or to use an electromagnetic pulse device to create "an American Hiroshima."

When addressing audiences receptive to Scriptural prophecy, however, Hagee welcomes the coming confrontation. He argues that a strike against Iran will cause Arab nations to unite under Russia's leadership, as outlined in chapters 38 and 39 of the Book of Ezekiel, leading to an "inferno [that] will explode across the Middle East, plunging the world toward Armageddon." In Hagee's telling, Israel has no choice but to strike at Iran's nuclear facilities, with or without America's help. The strike will provoke Russia -- which wants Persian Gulf oil -- to lead an army of Arab nations against Israel. Then God will wipe out all but one-sixth of the Russian-led army, as the world watches "with shock and awe," he says, lending either a divine quality to the Bush administration phrase or a Bush-like quality to God's wrath.

But Hagee doesn't stop there. He adds that Ezekiel predicts fire "upon those who live in security in the coastlands." From this sentence, he concludes that there will be judgment upon all who stood by while the Russian-led force invaded Israel, and issues a stark warning to the United States to intervene: "Could it be that America, who refuses to defend Israel from the Russian invasion, will experience nuclear warfare on our east and west coasts?" He says yes, citing Genesis 12:3, in which God said to Israel: "I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you."

To fill the power vacuum left by God's decimation of the Russian army, the Antichrist -- the head of the EU -- will rule "a one-world government, a one-world currency and a one-world religion" for three and a half years. (Hagee adds that "one need only be a casual observer of current events to see that all three of these things are coming into reality." The "demonic world leader" will then be confronted by a false prophet, identified by Hagee as China, at Armageddon, the Mount of Megiddo in Israel. As they prepare for the final battle, Jesus will return on a white horse and cast both villains -- and presumably any nonbelievers -- into a "lake of fire burning with brimstone," thus marking the beginning of his millennial reign.

Hagee doesn't fear a nuclear conflagration, but rather God's wrath for standing by as Iran executes its supposed plot to destroy Israel. A nuclear confrontation between America and Iran, which he says is foretold in the Book of Jeremiah, will not lead to the end of the world, but rather to God's renewal of the Garden of Eden. But Hagee is ultimately less concerned with the fate of Israel or the Jews than with a theocratic Christian right agenda. When Jesus returns for his millennial reign, he tells his television audience, "the righteous are going to rule the nations of the earth When Jesus Christ comes back, he's not going to ask the ACLU if it's all right to pray, he's not going to ask the churches if they can ordain pedophile bishops and priests, he's not going to ask if it's all right to put the Ten Commandments in the statehouses. He's not going to endorse abortion, he's going to run the world by the word of God The world will never end. It's going to become a Garden of Eden, and Christ is going to rule it."
Sarah Posner has covered the religious right for The American Prospect, The Gadflyer, and AlterNet. This article is adapted from "Pastor Strangelove," which appeared in the June 2006 issue of The American Prospect.
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They're businessmen, not religious believers
Posted by: nbrown on Aug 3, 2006 12:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pat Robertson is a millionaire. He's a businessman, not a relgious follower.

He has a tangible incentive in supporting violence against Iranians. The more hatred Christians feel against Iranians and Muslims in general, the more power Robertson gains as a figure in the Christian biz. Apart from his diamond mines and other ventures, his Christian-related stuff is worth a lot of money.

» WEALTH IS GOD'S GIFT TO PROPHETS Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» GOD'S GIFT OF WEALTH Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: GOD'S GIFT OF WEALTH Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: GOD'S GIFT OF WEALTH Posted by: DCostello
» RE: GOD'S GIFT OF WEALTH Posted by: sethmo
» RE: GOD'S GIFT OF WEALTH Posted by: paulaH
» RE: WEALTH IS GOD'S GIFT TO PROPHETS Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: WEALTH IS GOD'S GIFT TO PROPHETS Posted by: famouspipeliner
» Stop feeding the trolls {nt} Posted by: axolotl_helix

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Power of belief
Posted by: wrongone on Aug 3, 2006 12:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is a dangerous thing. Each one of us as humans surround ourselves with people and situations that fulfill our belief structures. If you are a religous person, your friends and peers tend to be just as religous. If you are a drunk, your friends and peers will be at the bars you frequent. The same can be said for all walks of life.
We need to decide as a species whether or not we want to allow those in charge to push us down the road towards armegeddon.
The book of Revelations points out the intricacies that our world unravels in order to allow the believers of it's faith everlasting salvation.
As such, people whom line up behind this belief structure yearn for the day that Armegeddon commences. If for no other reason than to validate there belief system.
Is validation in a belief system worth world destruction???
Reality is nothing more than a common agreement among all of us.
We can choose to kill ourselves for the benefit of a few, or we can agree on a different path.
I think it is a decision we all face right now.
I made my choice, and I hope enough of us do.
I refuse to allow our future to be dictated by the powerful few and their antiquated scripts of morality and salvation.
An eternity in hell is a fair price to pay, as long as this planet and it's inhabitants are spared the indignity of one faith's belief
in self destruction.

» RE: Power of belief Posted by: jreinhart1
» RE: Power of belief Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Power of belief Posted by: daniyls
» Danilys Posted by: wrongone

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Left Turn
Posted by: ltobs on Aug 3, 2006 12:52 AM   
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Interesting on how this compares to pre WWI in England. Church leaders were huge advoacates of going to war based in part on thier own end times scenarios. Wh know how WWI ended.

» RE: Left Turn Posted by: Nigelthebriton
» my thoughts exactly Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Left Turn Posted by: Lauren

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Self-fulfilling prophecy
Posted by: Moonray on Aug 3, 2006 1:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ironically, the wingnuts lobbying for war against Iran could bring about the very holocaust they believe has been preordained.

It seems unlikely that a war against Iran can prevent that country from obtaining or developing a nuclear weapon. (The neocon war planners probably harbor fantasies about effecting a regime change, but to this layman that seems most unlikely.)

And a trumped-up war on Iran -- as dangerous and repulsive as that regime is -- would provide ample excuse for Muslim hard-liners everywhere to concentrate their nuclear ambitions on the U.S. and Israel. (Oddly, the neocons and Christian nutjobs seem unconcerned with the fact that Pakistan, another hard-line Islamic nation, has about 200 nukes and reportedly plans to build many more. Go figure.)

All this is yet another reason for the United Nations to begin a global campaign to limit the effects of religion on governments and societies. A good first step: Banning the indoctrination of children under 18 into any supernatural belief system.

» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: Snorom Larebil
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: ekwhite
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: cmaukonen
» "limiting" religion.... Posted by: ChrisBieber
» RE: "limiting" religion.... Posted by: cmaukonen
» RE: "limiting" religion.... Posted by: brunowe
» RE: "limiting" religion.... Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: pjpatten
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: rinpochet
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: pjpatten
» UNbelievable Posted by: Lloyd Drako

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Christian crazies and Iranian's President actually agree on someting (kinda)
Posted by: Snorom Larebil on Aug 3, 2006 2:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad thinks the end time is near, of course he subscribes to the Islamic version, which is actually similar.

He has even taken steps to prepare for the "promised one" who will "fill this world with justice and peace."

Great read!

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48225

» Are any facts in error? Posted by: Snorom Larebil
» Ahmadinejad Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» I don't hate anyone! Posted by: ignition
» Ahmedinejad is loony because Posted by: Lloyd Drako

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What we have here is a recipe for disaster
Posted by: Lizmv on Aug 3, 2006 3:11 AM   
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A dry drunk of a president being advised by religious nutbars and supported by a codependant Congress. Throw in the Earth's largest stockpile of Weapons Of Mass Destruction and hand the button to the dry drunk president. Add to the blend a population suffering Post Tramatic Stress that has been numbed to the true threat of nuclear war. Whip until frenzied.


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Hagee and the Jerusalem Post
Posted by: NoNut on Aug 3, 2006 3:35 AM   
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First, Hagee's opinion on the end times is a small minority amongst Protestant Christians, and the fringe of evangelical Protestant Christians.

Second, Hagee has numerous other theological problems. His weird theology bears its distorted fruit in his eschatology. His teaching is bearly Christian.

Third, didn't the Jerusalem Post recently put words in Robertson's mouth (no mean feat since Robertson's foot has taken up regular residence there of late) and then have to retract their statement? As a matter of fact, I believe Hagee was involved in that somehow also. They attributed to Robertson something Hagee said. Robertson denied it and Hagee backpeddled a bit. Perhaps not the most reliable rag when it comes to what evangelcials say.

Finally, the comment "who believe our allies are evil incarnate" is a misrepresentation of an incorrect doctrine. Hagee and others do not believe that Europe is the antichrist, rather that the Antichrist will rise from Europe, a reconstituted Roman Empire. They believe he will rise as a political leader and then assert himself as a false god. Given their own wrong doctrine, I don't understand how they believe they can trigger the end times through political means. Just weird.

» RE: Is Hagee REALLY fringe? Posted by: Jasonix

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It'll never happen...
Posted by: adp3d on Aug 3, 2006 3:37 AM   
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...because only they will have the will to engage. The US military has been weaken beyond belief with the current conflict. The majority of the country and the world is war weary at best. Now, if these guys want to marshall themselves into a 700,000 strong army, I say more power to 'em, It will bring about the "End Times" for some of them at least.

» RE: It'll never happen... Posted by: Lizmv

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easy it is
Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 3, 2006 3:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This piece shows how easy it is for some religious leaders to become insane and to lead their followers into insane activities. It also illuminates how close to insanity our Bushie leaders have become with their massive war crimes already commited and with their projected massive increases in war crimes. Maybe it's God's way of reducing our overpopulation which is leading us toward environmental armageddon.

» RE: easy it is Posted by: rhinojos
» Damn! Posted by: famouspipeliner

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no better than
Posted by: fruitcrow on Aug 3, 2006 3:52 AM   
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the most extreme ayatollas who encourage desperate youth to sacrifice their lives in suicide bombings so they can attain paradise!! This is actually more dangerous and extreme as it is on a mass scale!!


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Funny they should pull a page from Jeremiah for this
Posted by: BJT on Aug 3, 2006 4:19 AM   
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Jeremiah is filled with indictments against the bureaucrats of the time who ignored justice, ignored God, and exploited the poor.


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None of us can do a thing about this though...
Posted by: riffraff2001 on Aug 3, 2006 4:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
because some very influential people in this country believe these things are supposed to happen, thus it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The motivation behind it is simple. Conservative Christians want to be right about religion so much that they will in fact make the prophecies happen just so they can say they were right. They're going to be very disappointed when there is no return of Christ after their great war. But sane people can't stop it because these people have power and influence. It's reports like this one that really make me want to go build a log cabin out in the wilderness somewhere and just forget the rest of the world is even out there. There's just too many crazy people in this world to deal with.


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We Who Are Wide Awake
Posted by: wawa on Aug 3, 2006 5:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have been reporting for over a year about neo-con, neo-christian zionist fundamentalists who first infiltrated the White House during the Regan years.

What these fundamentalists leave behind is the true message of Christ: love, forgiveness, do not judge the non-believer, and remain NONVIOLENT even to the point of one's own death.

"KEEP HOPE ALIVE" not ONLY exposes and blows apart the heretical 200 year old theology of these fundamentalists who believe they can bring Christ back through a nuclear war,

"KEEP HOPE ALIVE" is also a basic education regarding the Israeli Palestinian conflict, my eye witness report from the other side of The Wall,

"KEEP HOPE ALIVE" also picks up where Dan Brown's DaVinci Code left you off...

Order info on August 3
WAWA BLOG


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Hagee the Righteous
Posted by: robmikejas on Aug 3, 2006 5:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a friend, whom I cherish, who belongs to the Cornerstone Church under the leadership of John Hagee. She believes every word her minister says. This is a dangerous man, no doubt. I have seen her go from a moderate, tolerant human being to a rabid, religiously addicted follower in a few short years. The in depth theological discussions we once held are no more. There is no room for disagreement or rational give and take in our conversations. Hagee has her so deeply indoctrinated that I barely know her now. His church is nothing more than a cult and a rather large one at that. How do you respond to such perverted brainwashing? I love this person and am horrified to see her slip into such moral decline.

» RE: Hagee the Righteous Posted by: Domokun
» RE: Hagee the Righteous Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Hagee the Righteous Posted by: AlienSlave
» RE: Hagee the Righteous Posted by: JAXC

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just a thought
Posted by: tocarr on Aug 3, 2006 5:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where, exactly, does God come into their plan?
I was always taught that it was He who decided when the
end would come.
I think all of these "evangelicals" have taken too much away
from God and the scriptures.
They are the ones to watch out for. Not Saddam, Iran, or
any foreign power.
They are mostly liars and theives.

» RE: just a thought Posted by: NoNut
» RE: just a thought Posted by: ekwhite

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Christianists that lust after death and destruction will get their wish
Posted by: xbj on Aug 3, 2006 5:39 AM   
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Christianists who lust after death and destruction and work earnestly for Armageddon will get their wishes fulfilled, beyond their wildest dreams.

But not only will they not like it when it finally occurs, involving not just the Mideast but the utter destruction of their own beloved USA as well, they will be woefully amazed when they are cast after their real god Lucifer into the molten lake of fire interior of Venus.

They won't be coming out either.

This may well be their last warning.


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Fundamentalist evangelicals are dangerous
Posted by: greentime on Aug 3, 2006 5:40 AM   
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They are as unhinged as any other extreme religious radical zealots.

They are not peaceful, they are war mongers.

They are truly dangerous because they deeply believe they have a god-given right to destroy, or aid in the destruction of the earth!!!

If they weren't from inside of America, we would consider them terrorists.

They pray and shout and long for the destruction of the rest of us who don't fall in line with their dangerous beliefs.

Their beliefs are vicious and unsound.

We shouldn't be surprised that the non-Christian majority of the world and also Christians who are not apocalyptic, WILL see them that way and begin to treat them accordingly. They seek to destroy, they hate, they threaten the planet and ALL cultures on it.

Are we harboring world terrorists by remaining silent in the face of this death wish for all of us born of the hypocricy of the radical evangelical Christians?

Those of us who don't see WWIII as an option would do well to stand up to this very real threat. Rapture is not an option for us.

I love this planet and accept my dependency on the fragile web of life it supports. We have no right - any of us - to monopolize or destroy this most precious gift - our home and home to all life.

» RE: Sorry SamFox, I disagree Posted by: greentime

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sickofsleaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Aug 3, 2006 5:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know why they are so eager for Armageddon, they will be the first on the train to hell. Personally I believe the Bush regime is the Antichrist. My religious counselor tells me the Antichrist is not necessarily one person.

» RE: sickofsleaze Posted by: channing

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Birds of a feather.
Posted by: Krotos on Aug 3, 2006 6:00 AM   
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You want the UN to outlaw religion? Pity you weren't born in the Soviet Union under Stalin; you would have been right at home.

The fundamental problem behind this mess is that there are people who feel entitled to force their beliefs about religion on others.

And in that sense, I consider militant atheists like you to be no better than the Islamists and the Christofascists.

-K.Ai.-

» Ooops Posted by: Krotos
» RE: Birds of a feather. Posted by: 1984NOW!!!

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how many years
Posted by: karyse on Aug 3, 2006 6:07 AM   
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I always ask Christians how many years would have to pass before they no longer believe the "prophesy" of Jesus' return.
5000, 10,000, 20,000 years?

Afterall, the original time span was stated as "This generation shall not pass..." A whole hell of a lot of generations have passed since that promise was supposedly uttered.

Their answer is that no amount of years passed would alter their belief in the "immanent return." Doesn't their answer tell you everything that you need to know about people who believe based on faith? Doesn't the answer prove that faith is a kind of psychological illness that is so irrational that anyone claiming to believe anything at all based on faith should be prevented from holding any office that requires decision making?

The rapture is a win-win situation. Personally, I would be ecstatic if all the faithful everywhere simply vanished one morning.

» Paradox of faith. Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Paradox of faith. Posted by: Jimbo
» "This Generation ..." Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: how many years Posted by: Lauren

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Dangerous times
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Aug 3, 2006 6:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any American who wants to stand to prevent the coming debacle must first realize that there are three groups using each other to force our government into war. Their motives are different but their goal is the same, war in the Middle East. These groups are the militant Jews, the militant Christians, and the corporate establishment.

The most dangerous of these is the corporatocracy which already controls our government to a great extent through campaign financing and lobbying. With the support of the Jews and the Christian Right this minority will gain the legitimacy of numbers.

Anyone who wants to avoid war must stand up now, before the election. We must tell both parties that we won't vote for a party which doesn't have a plan for peace. Join The Lincoln Initiative, not an organization but a strategy to make "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" a reality. We have less than 100 days.
Bob Reichenbach
lincoln0212@msn.com

» Four Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Four Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Dangerous times Posted by: Jesse Cristo

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A veiled polemic
Posted by: ekwhite on Aug 3, 2006 6:21 AM   
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It is amazing that so many people try to bring about 'prophecies' in a book that was a veiled polemic against the Roman empire. It is no accident that Nero's name adds up to 666 in the Gamatria system, and that his nickname was 'The Beast.'

» A veiled polemic???????????? Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: A veiled polemic Posted by: ignition
» yes, quite so. Posted by: Ghoulman

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An evil triumvirate?
Posted by: redstarwraith on Aug 3, 2006 6:52 AM   
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We've seen this reported in various guises elsewhere on Alternet although Sarah sheds some new light on "Rev." Hagee. Yes, it is interesting to ask the question at what point do Neocon dreams and extreme right-wing Xn fundamentalism intersect. It becomes difficult to see just who is leading whom around. The neocon vision (as such) has nothing to do with religion and the (so-called) religious view of Hagee et al does not really originate from a secular idea, yet both sides use the other to legitimate their own interests. Added to these strange bedfellows we have to add certain Israeli factions to the mix. I have a difficult time believing that most Israelis (even those in the knesset) actually believe any of this perverted Xn form of the apocalypse mythology; Judaism certainly doesn't teach anything like it. I suspect Israeli "support" for this mythology stems from the fact that all of this really translates into continued financial support for Israel. Sarah is certainly correct that Russia would never stand idly by and watch the U.S. invade Iran, and rightly so, Iran and Russia have cultivated a nice diplomatic relationship with each other (a talent that is sorely lacking within our American administration wherein "statesman" is another way of saying, "retired military guy with a hard-on for war"). Yet, I predict that, sooner or later this whole dicked-up triumvirate of madness will destroy itself internally. There are too many inherent contradictions in mixing up secular Israel with right wing Xn fundamentalism plus secular neocon tomfoolery.
For a very insightful read on all this, pick up Gershom Gorenberg's excellent book "The End of Days: Fundamentalism and the Struggle for the Temple Mount"


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Everything in perspective
Posted by: redstarwraith on Aug 3, 2006 7:02 AM   
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Oh, the religious aspect of this whole fiction is a shambles! One need only look at the story of how the Bible was put together and suddenly all this apocalypse mumbo-jumbo seems very different. Everything in its historical context people! The books of the Bible WERE NOT "divinely ordained." They were decided on by a group of men who were the elite of their day. If commoners would have had a say in the construction and editing of the Bible, The Gospel of James would have probably been front and center! Hagee, et al are tapping into the most primal and awful level of a religion (that of the ancient Hebrews) that had not really transcended its own barbarity and tribalism. Read the Bible. See if the early forms of Judaism do not look, sound and behave as a tribal religion. Judaism became humane only when the rabbis defanged it.

» RE: verything in perspective Posted by: aussidawg
» It's a big problem for these folks. Posted by: MatthewSavage

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I don't think it counts...
Posted by: Farmertim on Aug 3, 2006 7:14 AM   
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if the believers per say, bring about Armagedon...if they do I think they may be in for one "Hell" of a suprise.......
And just what part of "thou shall not kill thy neighbor" don't they understand???
FarmerTim


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Church and Hate
Posted by: Pippi on Aug 3, 2006 7:23 AM   
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These are the people who don't want humans messing with life in the womb. But they can mess with hundreds of thousands of lives outside the US? They live in Old Testament times and have no business calling themselves religious much less Christian. "I'm for the separation of Church and Hate." (from a bumpersticker by www.northernsun.com)

» RE: Church and Hate Posted by: AlienSlave

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thinking on the premise of this article...
Posted by: ellie on Aug 3, 2006 7:39 AM   
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This article is quite clear about the state of religion in this country right now. It scares the hell out of me that people are willing to tinker with the concept of end times. For the sake of what? Why are people willing to destroy and kill the folks next door who don’t go to the same church? Simplistic I know, but sometimes reductionism has it’s place. The part that freaks me out is that tinkering with time always ends in disaster. Things happen when they are supposed to happen and not a second sooner. Personal thoughts.

Now onto the topic at hand. The issue doesn’t really seem to be forcing Christianity down the throat of people and let’s remove the point of mega churches making their leaders incredibly wealthy with greed. Let’s look at social change. Humans do not evolve as fast as technology and we always have a culture lag going on. When the disconnect happens between people and technology (the gap becomes too wide to understand), people will turn over every rock they can find for some sort of explanation and to hide in a false sense of security. In western society, the favorite panacea is religion. In this case, religion in all of it's flavors can be called power for the powerless in the hands of globalization, corporatization and limiting resources to people to help them make independent decisions.

For me, the irony of this article is that as I sit at my little desk stalling on writing a lecture for fall semester, the lecture topic is social control.


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Not the end of the world, only the end of the Church - thank God
Posted by: DCostello on Aug 3, 2006 7:42 AM   
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This latest experiment in monotheism, Christianity, has shown, once again, it doesn't work. It's been tried before, twice, both were miserable failures ending very simialarly to how this one will end but much nastier for the rest of us.

Monotheism, one people one God, is the most corruptable and contempable forms of religion. It is the root cause of the black and white world we're presented with today - if you're not with us, you're against us. One people, one God, one Ceasar, the Divine Right of Kings, the "shining city on the hill" USA.

It's all just a power play. A way for the few to control the many. I'm not sure who first made the statement but, religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich and powerful.

When you crazy Christians finally get your Armageddon and kill each other off, then the rest of us, what's left, will experience your "heaven on earth".

So, please hurry, genocide yourselves so the world can be a safer and more Christian place.

» Which church? Posted by: MatthewSavage

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Lobbying for Armageddon
Posted by: D-of-G on Aug 3, 2006 7:45 AM   
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It is so amazing, given the passage of so much time and history, that as a collective, human beings cannot grasp that the (uni)-verse- one song, has one soul, with one "destiny!" It is a destiny that is without time, space and DISTINCTIONS. These are the illusory perceptions of Man! But unfortunately, at the present time, the world is being dangerously held together, myopically, by those who believe in perpetuating perverse competition, homicide to vindicate homicide, ignorance and fear.
All that needs to be understood about the relevant topic is that if God, according their own bible, is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, "HE" does not need an agent!

» RE: Lobbying for Armageddon Posted by: harris

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let's start a fund
Posted by: aislinnluv on Aug 3, 2006 7:52 AM   
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to give these wackos (DANGEROUS wackos) all a pair of black sneakers and a blanket to hide under while they wait for the end times... preferably after a little poison cocktail. i can't believe that we allow these freaks to walk the streets. IF there were a god and IF he were planning an armageddon, why would he require the assistance of some jerk-off religious psychopath to light the match? will no one rid (us) of this meddlesome priest?


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It's clear
Posted by: JeffKleist on Aug 3, 2006 7:54 AM   
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Religion is the only mental illness that gets the unquestioning bye

It must be banned, and it's adherents given the mental help they need for their delusions.

At the very least, televangelism and megachurches must be banned, and all churches assessed an 85% fraud tax in addition to all other taxes

God must be proven in a court of law, and must appear to testify. until then, if you are religious you are a danger to yourself and others as you are commanded to murder and pillage in his name. You are REQURED to murder all nonbelievers, and if you're not doing it, you're going to hell

ANd remember Matthew 14:15, even Jesus approves. "I have not come to undo the old laws, b ut to fufill them"

» RE: It's clear Posted by: HuckFinn
» Religion came from drugs Posted by: alterhead
» RE: It's clear Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: It's clear Posted by: 1984NOW!!!

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Spock
Posted by: Spock on Aug 3, 2006 7:54 AM   
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The trouble is that Hezbollah and Iran are planning a nuclear attack on the U.S. right now. They'll do it with "backpack" SADMs they already have, massing them in a big city - St. Louis or Omaha, I expect - until the 1.9 kiloton yield of the SADM (Small Atomic Demolition Munition) is that of the Hiroshima bomb or bigger.

The terrorists will use small aircraft (like those I wrote about in my novel, "Jonatha's Truth'), and skydive with the bombs. That's why Hezbollah and al Qa'ida have been seen in parachute training recently.

If they're smart (as opposed to theatrical as the Arab always must be), they'll attack the IRS Headquarters at Martinsburg, WVA. That would cripple the economy. It could be even worse, should terrorism become really tactical instead of just maniacal and suicidal.

I've noticed in watching the media and perusing the many website forums that most people, even those with a great deal of information and learning, don't think very well when it comes to tactics. That's another very real problem in a democracy during times like these.

I've detailed how I think Iran and the Hezbollah will attack the U.S. on my own website www.judoknighterrant.com

» RE: Spock Posted by: Joshua Holland
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» RE: Spock Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: Spock Posted by: Spock
» RE: Spock Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: Spock Posted by: Spock

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Who are they to FORCE God's hand!
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Aug 3, 2006 8:06 AM   
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These are truly sick humans that believe they can force God's hand to the end of times by promoting the slaughter of people and cheering death and destruction of people around the world, the destruction of our water, lands and hope that 1/3rd of all people, land and water will be wiped out or made unusable. That is what they believe (been there). These people are far more evil than anyone that has had their feet on this planet as they pray for it's destruction!


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No Need for Foreign Terrorists
Posted by: pcushniesr on Aug 3, 2006 8:14 AM   
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The need for foreign terrorists to strike within the US is over. No person with a bomb could do more harm to this country than what this administration and the christian right are doing (I will not dignify that benighted segment of the population with capital letters). I would not, however, be surprised if something that APPEARED to be an attack were to occur before November. Call me nuts, but I would not put it past right-wing extremists to stage a "terrorist" event before the election.

» RE: No Need for Foreign Terrorists Posted by: Steve_in_NH

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Impeach people such as these from our government.
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Aug 3, 2006 8:21 AM   
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These diseased minds are in our congress, senate and whitehouse. They look forward every day for death and destruction with joy! There have never been a more perverted people on the face of this earth and should outed as the ultimate evil people that they truly are. The leaders that follow this brainwashing should be exposed in the legislative, judicial and executive branches and removed from office as not being competent to lead.


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to rule is to serve
Posted by: caru on Aug 3, 2006 8:21 AM   
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where i drop christianity: LORD. that one word is full of so much.

when i lived in kentucky as a preteen i received a flyer in 1977 that pretty much said what this hagee guys says. these violent thugs have been seeking world destruction for some time.

the simple truth is the world needs to heal from violence. all together now ... all together now.

then we can move on to the real deal.

TO RULE IS TO SERVE.

» RE: to rule is to serve Posted by: Lauren

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Hagee, and those like him, are trying to play God
Posted by: writer33 on Aug 3, 2006 8:24 AM   
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It's really a monstrous stretch of self-righteous bigotry for these evangelical "Christians" to want to bring about Armageddon. In effect, what Hagee is doing is playing God! He and others like him are attempting to take it upon themselves to accelerate the event of Armageddon. By thinking this way, they are abandoning their own Christian teachings. What they fail to acknowledge is that Armageddon will come in God's time, not theirs! And Revelation clearly says those who bring Armageddon are the evil ones, and by their rush to start a war with Iran, or any other, they themselves become part of the evil they so feverishly rail against! What is it about "Thou shalt not kill" that they fail so miserably to understand?


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religion is not the opiate of the people
Posted by: bob8954 on Aug 3, 2006 8:25 AM   
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it seems to act like methamphetamine


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armedeggon
Posted by: rogeralexander on Aug 3, 2006 8:28 AM   
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My late mother and two sisters here in India (can you believe it?) pray for an an Armeggedon every day! Who cares if it's a nuclear holocaust? The Second Coming is more important! Sorry guys, you holier-than-thou types in the US reap what you sow. We Indians were much more tolerant before. Not now.

» RE: armedeggon Posted by: concerned Canadian
» RE: armedeggon Posted by: babs
» RE: armedeggon Posted by: albrechtkrausse

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But this too was prophesied...
Posted by: psilver58 on Aug 3, 2006 8:31 AM   
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People of faith are not all dumb. I am a physicist and engineer and also have a degree in theological studies from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in the Boston area. At GCTS, of the hundreds of students I met, mostly "evangelical" protestants, exactly none subscribed to these Armageddon-inducing lunacies. In fact, Christ made it very clear: "Blessed are the peacemakers" and "Love your enemies."

During the first three hundred years of their existence within the Roman Empire Christians proclaimed Christ as "Lord and Savior," claiming the very title that the Emperor reserved exclusively for himself. Result? Christians were persecuted, but over time prevailed nonetheless.

As for Israel, Christ's apostles made it clear that the true Israel is not a geopolitical national security state. They did not support a revival of the national Israel, and were therefore driven out of the temple by the conventional Jews, who held that you had to be genetically in line with Abraham and ritually circumcised in order to belong to the people of God. But the apostle Paul, who gave his life preaching the way of Christ, said that circumcision of the body means nothing; only "circumcision" of the heart means anything. It's all very, very clear that original Christianity was not a doctrine about supporting some earthly "holy land." And more than that, original Christianity was not a doctrine about supporting any national security state, whether Israel, Rome, or the United States. It's about a voluntary transnational community -- not a literal nation state -- of those who believe in living according to the principles of grace, mercy, forgiveness, unconditional love, sharing, cooperation. These principles, as has been pointed out by numerous commentators, some of them "christian," are totally "impractical" from the worldly point of view. Marxists and fascists alike mock true Christ-likeness. They say you must use force, and so forth. And yet, we have it on the authority of Roman historians themselves, that Christians living within their Empire were entirely non-violent during the first three centuries...and yet it was Christ who prevailed as Lord and Savior, not Caesar.

Anyway, what these Armageddon lunatics are doing is, yes, setting up what they secretly hope will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. But their folly will be made plain when the ruling elite of this world proffer up a counterfeit techno-christ in Jerusalem. Millions of "good, bible-believing evangelicals" who follow people like Hagee and LaHaye as well as many "non-religious" people will be deluded into thinking that the authentic Christ has returned. It is the psuedo-christ who will lead the world to a fiery end. But this too was prophesied!

As for the authentic Christ and his appearance in fullness at the end of history, that is a matter of faith. I believe it, most don't, and that's your business, not the government's. What I can say for sure is that all witnesses agree that Jesus never supported violence, not even allowing his own disciples to defend him when the temple Jews came to arrest him (see Mel Gibson's movie, it's gruesomely faithful to eye-witness accounts). Jesus said, rather, "Put up your sword," and "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." He also said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," the implication being that karma brings back to us what we give out: kindness to those who are kind; violence to those who are violent. One would expect, therefore, that Armageddon lunatics who deliberately incite a nuclear conflagration, though they might ironically be instrumental in ushering in the fullness of Christ's appearance on earth, would not enjoy the peace and blessedness that Christ promised his faithful. They would rather, one would expect, be top drawer candidates for the shame, confusion, and humiliation reserved for "evildoers."

» eye-witness accounts?? Posted by: alterhead
» RE: eye-witness accounts?? Posted by: ignition

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Verifiable proof that "Armageddon" has already begun…
Posted by: SevenStarHand on Aug 3, 2006 8:29 AM   
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Hello all,

Remember the saying that "the truth will set you (and others) free?"
Here's the key to proving that the rapture and related expectations are complete nonsense based on the failure to understand (and the purposeful confounding of) the ancient Hebrew symbology used to construct all of these prophecies. Consequently, Christian timelines and interpretations of these prophecies are verifiably wrong on many key points.

Pay close attention, profundity knocks at the door, listen for the key. Be Aware! Scoffing causes blindness...

Did you ever consider that Christianity is the False Prophet symbolized in the Apocalypse, that Rome (Vatican/Papacy) is the so-called anti-messiah, and Jesus Christ is the false messiah? I have produced stunning and comprehensive proof that this is the true interpretation of pivotal prophecies long confounded by Christianity's founders and leaders. Recasting the symbolism of earlier Hebrew texts as literal events in the New Testament is one of the central deceptions associated with Christianity.

The symbolism of seven years (tribulation, etc.) refers to seven 360-year cycles on the Hebrew calendar. Ezekiel 39.9 is referring to the 10th to 16th cycles inclusive, while the Apocalypse symbolizes the 11th cycle (second temple period) until now, the beginning of the 17th cycle (seventh angel/star/seal, etc.). Greece (Alexander the Great) conquered the Persian Empire and Judea during the 10th cycle and Rome did so again during the 11th cycle. Both Ezekiel and the Apocalypse are symbolizing an overlapping period of time that starts during ancient Judea and ends now. Gog refers to Greco-Romans (...from the "isles"), which means Magog is Eurasia and the "army" that besets "Israel" for seven "years" refers to the activities of the nations of the Greco-Roman/Vatican Empire over the previous two-plus millennia.

It is completely wrong to interpret any of these prophecies as literal timelines and events. Unlike Christian assertions, they symbolize long periods of time, pivotal situations, and the flow of acivities during that period. Remember, they were written by ancient Hebrew sages, not Romans or other Europeans, and Revelation is the most symbolic of all prophecies. Consequently, in this context, "years" and "times" are symbols for 360-year cycles on the Hebrew calendar and days symbolize literal years. Therefore "Judgement Day," "Great Day" and "in that day" all refer to a literal year-long period. Accordingly, the so-called "Seven Years Tribulation" began in ancient Judea and is now nearing its end, not starting. The nations and followers of all three faiths of Abraham have been thoroughly deceived by Rome during the previous age, which ended in year 2000 (5760). A new age began in 2001 (5761) and now the seventh angel has begun to sound!

Here's a real hot potato! Eat it up, digest it, and then feed it's bones to the hungry...

These ancient prophecies and wisdom texts used advanced symbology to model fundamental wisdom, including future events and situations. My decryption, documentation, and interpretation of ancient symbology, numeric symbolism, and key texts based on them, are now decisively validated.

Here is Wisdom...

Verifiable proof that Armageddon has begun…

Understanding the End Game of Armageddon

Peace...

» RE: bmartling… Posted by: Lincoln fan

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Brother Hagee has the Anointing of Prophecy!!!!!!
Posted by: Jesse Cristo on Aug 3, 2006 8:38 AM   
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Brother John Hagee has been anointed by God to speak on His behalf. It is God's will that the non-believers of Alternet are blinded to the truth: you will never be saved. God doesn't love liberals, leftist sympathizers or Commies. To quote Brother Hagee, "it doesn't matter what you believe, the reality is still there." America's jihadist enemies, the Muslims, are savage animals bent on the destruction of our God fearing way of life. Sure you don't believe it. You project good intentions on everyone except our President and the troops. But reality will teach you when it is too late. Look for the Christians then - you will only find our earthly belongings abandoned as our naked bodies float to Heaven in Rapturous glory!

» RE: Great satire Posted by: ccbite
» Remember when... Posted by: famouspipeliner
» I'm making a t-shirt! Posted by: alterhead
» Man, that Cristo dude... Posted by: alterhead
» RE: Man, that Cristo dude... Posted by: aussidawg

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If all these 'fanatics' really wish to SEE their END!!!!!
Posted by: concerned Canadian on Aug 3, 2006 8:45 AM   
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If the American voting public ( and don't forget you still have a VOTE) wishes to end these fanatics' endgame dreams then vote them out, don't rant about it or feel sickened or anything. Use the ability to make decisions which God gave you to act logically. Then, when their power is gone and these individuals, Bush included, still wish to pursue their personal dreams of their privately conceived Armageddon then they can all sit down together and commit themselves to that end in a private manner speaking of their ill dreamt visions to whoever will listen. For sure God won't be. However, I think the bulk of these responses are correct in their take on these people i.e. they are not "true" believers or anything but of the sound of their own and each others' voices. So let them end their lives like the 'true' believers they claim to be and let them put their personal faith in this vision to the true test. Let them get to their endgame like the visionaries they claim to be. Why pay attention to them? Our task as people with minds is to figure out solutions, so let's solve the problems by the means we have at hand. Vote the illegitimate government out and as for the tv time ranters, don't tune into the channels of these hypocrites. Listen, instead, to the heartbeat of daily life. And don't worry about the fact that suicide, should these self confessed believers of the 'end' be men enough to purse their own end, is against the law. These types have not worried about the legitimacy of laws before so let them go to their dreamland as they lived their lives. At least this way they are being true to something and the rest of us who are pursuing life don't have to listen to them.


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All of this is contingent on the bible being a work of fact......
Posted by: DCostello on Aug 3, 2006 9:01 AM   
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.....as opposed to the fiction and myth that it is.

The Christ myth is just that, a myth. There is no historical proof that Christ ever existed outside the Bible. It's a myth just like those of Zeus, Mithra, and all the others. Aside from the claim that Christ was a real person, nothing in the Christ myth is even original. Large portions of the story have been lifted from the Mithra myth, some quite literally like the quote about drinking my blood and eating my body. That line, almost verbatum, was around for 400 years BEFORE the Christ myth.

The Christ myth, the Armageddon myth, the Great Flood myth, and many of the other myths contained in the Bible existed long before the christen god ever took pen to paper. To think that somehow the Christian myths are true is, well, naive is a term that comes to mind.

» jes cristo... Posted by: alterhead
» In Defense of DCostello... Posted by: aussidawg
» Listen bud Posted by: famouspipeliner

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I could not understand what happened in Germany
Posted by: ciccio on Aug 3, 2006 9:14 AM   
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I had family in Germany after the war, visited there often, had
many German friends and none could ever give my a sane reason for Hitler. Everything pointed to his mania, how could
the people let him get into power. I just did not get it.
Watching the States for the last couple of years, I ask the same questions. Can no one see these idiots are preaching a demented theology, has no one ever learned that a people cannot be conquered in their own land, be it 100 or a thousand
years, they will rise again.

Finaly, thanks to the insight I gained in the last few years, I can understand the rise of Hitler. It is not that he had the bulk
of the support, it is just that his supporters were loudest. The
quiet, sane and sensible ones stayed at home and mulled about the idiots shouting in the streets. Nobody gave a damn
about homosexuals, they were there, they have always been
there and they will always be there. Just ignored them. All of a sudden it was the most heinous of crimes, the one that sapped the vitality of the nation, that demeaned all of German manhood and it had to be eradicated. The Poles have
been the punching bag of Europe for 400 years, all of a sudden they were a threat to the peace and security of the country and drastic action had to be taken .

Does any of this strike a familiar chord?


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Religeous Insanity
Posted by: freerain on Aug 3, 2006 9:15 AM   
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As most people BELIEVE that Christianity is the seat of Western MORALITY it is actually the most IMMORAL plan for ALL HUMANITY that was ever put to print.

As for Salvation, what is it that anyone needs salvation for? If you are to believe in salvation, then you are to believe that you are imperfect in your nature, a corruption of Creation, in that you blaspheme the Creator Omnipotent who created you. Don't mistake me, my nature is not corrupt, not one bit, and I don't need salvation--the blood of another being put to death for my offense against the State, temporal or Divine, (Human Sacrifice). I don't need to take a sacrament (the flesh and blood of a human, ie, cannibalism) for the infusion of the Divine into my body.

I can't implore folks enough to read G. James Stewart's Immorality of Christianity which can be downloaded for FREE. Stewart wrote this book before G. W. Bush ran for office and it put forth the psychology of the insanity of Christianity and it's effect on the world in our times. Sadly, too much of it has been validated.

Christian's NEED to bring about Armageddon. We, the sane body of Humanity, do not need to let them have it. All races, creeds, cultures, nations need to step back from the brink of self-destruction manipulated upon the stage of The Living Earth by the diseased minds of a lustful Ring of Powerful lovers of death and destruction to prove the existence of their God and Savior Jesus. Proof is not Faith.

Freerain

» RE: eligeous Insanity Posted by: DCostello
» luvin u Posted by: caru

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Do you want a Civil War?
Posted by: shangrilalad on Aug 3, 2006 9:18 AM   
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Authoritarians have taken over our country through rigged elections and intimidation and by default because of Democratic cowardice. Our Democratic leaders have been too cowardly to put up serious resistance to the "Decider's" relentless and increasing efforts to seize more power. Political solutions are impossible for those who have no political power, and their chances of ever getting any political power are narrowed even more when those in POWER control the voting machines.

So what are we going to do if the Authoritarians steal another election?

Surrender or Fight?

For those who choose surrender, fine. Start looking for a place out of the line of fire.

For those who choose to fight, let's ask the Authoritarians: " Do you want a Civil War?"

» RE: Do you want a Civil War? Posted by: concerned Canadian

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Is it just me,
Posted by: harris on Aug 3, 2006 9:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or are all the comments for this article slanted to the right?

Just kidding, but why are they all italicized?

» RE: Is it just me, Posted by: Ktflake
» While you were sleeping last night Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: Is it just me, Posted by: AlienSlave

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If all these Christians want to die so badly.....
Posted by: DCostello on Aug 3, 2006 9:55 AM   
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.....why don't the just kill themselves and save the rest of us the big mess?


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Mark Twain - The War Prayer
Posted by: DCostello on Aug 3, 2006 10:22 AM   
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Mark Twain wrote a wonderful short story called The War Prayer. I'd suggest looking it up and reading it. The prayer offered by the central character is as follows. Sounds a lot like the Christian right today.


"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.


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I have a dream
Posted by: Lloyd Drako on Aug 3, 2006 10:45 AM   
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that one day Christ returns to earth. Yes, it's manifestly Him: He comes in riding on the clouds, visible to all mankind as He descends in glory, He walks and talks among us, healing the sick and feeding the hungry, He turns wine into water and then walks on it, He has the nail wounds and all.

He exhorts us to love one another and says a lot of other quotably uplifting stuff, and we see it all, some of us first-hand, others on CNN and Fox. No one doubts, everyone believes, from the fiercest ayatollahs to the rankest Eurosecularists.

Then He goes away, telling us we're going to be on our own again for a while. Worth it just to see the look of stupefaction on everyone's face.

» RE: I have a dream Posted by: AlienSlave
» RE: I have a dream Posted by: 1984NOW!!!

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There are no "End Times"
Posted by: ClintEastwood on Aug 3, 2006 11:13 AM   
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There are no "End Times," only the end of an Age. Most religions, including Christianity, are based upon astrology. Jesus is a personification of the Sun in the Age of Pisces. Jesus is the light of the world. He is the bright morning star. There are references to the "end of the Age" mentioned in the Bible. These are not referencing "End Times." They are in reference to the end of the Age of Pisces. Jesus' sign was the fish, after all. Can you guess what the sign of Pisces is? I'll give you a hint. It swims.

» Are you really Dirty Harry? Posted by: mstenger
» RE: Are you really Dirty Harry? Posted by: ClintEastwood
» RE: There are no "End Times" Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: There are no "End Times" Posted by: ClintEastwood

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Christian Fundies no differant than Al-Qaeda
Posted by: yellow on Aug 3, 2006 11:30 AM   
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There are no endtimes! All violence is created by man! Only man can stop it. Tell me how the endtimers are any different than a suicide bomber who expects a harem of 70 virgins in heavan as a reward! The world has truely gone mad! We are all suffering the bitter transition from the liberal Keynsean welfare state capitalism to global neo-liberal capitalism sans social safety net and trade union protection for workers! Religion breaks up the nation-state and reverses the process of nation building which was based on a large and vibrant middle class. Now world income is concentrating and Keysean liberal society is no more. Workers and progressives must find a new basis of struggle and agenda setting to defend themselves from the religio-capitalist onslaught! If religion is to play a new positive role for the poor it must be of the liberation-theology variety!


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Some more similarities to WWI
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 3, 2006 12:16 PM   
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As an above post pointed out, political warmongers have always tried to whip up religious fervor and use it to start wars for their own personal benefit.

Please watch this video, and buy the DVD when it comes out
Rob Newman on the History of Oil
(http://www.robnewman.com/news.html)

Not much has changed since WWI - the secret British-American contracts for sharing the Mideast Oil were signed well before the war started, while the politicos of the day claimed they were only interested in peace and justice - and the media of the day certainly wasn't going to discuss the geopolitical strategic need to control MidEast oil supplies.

The modern versions are the US-Vichy Iraq production sharing agreements (secret contracts) under which oil is being shipped out of Iraq for the benefit of Cheney and Rice's old companies. These clever criminals use the religious right to whip up the fervor while filling their pockets with as much loot as possible - this tactic is as hold as recorded history! From the Egyptian god-kings right up to the present day, political rulers have always tried to exploit religion for their personal benefit.

» RE: Some more similarities to WWI Posted by: ClintEastwood

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No More Italics
Posted by: lonpine on Aug 3, 2006 12:34 PM   
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» RE: No More Italics Posted by: lonpine

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did you know
Posted by: rwa on Aug 3, 2006 12:48 PM   
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DID YOU KNOW...
MonaBaker.com



August 2, 2006



Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel?



Did you now that cars owned by Palestinians are colour coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?


Did you know Palestinians are not allowed to move from one city, say Gaza to Bethleham, to another without first getting a 'visa' from Israel?


Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is given to about 400 Jewish settlers, while 15% must be divided among Hebron's 120,000 Palestinians?


Did you know that Israel routinely confiscates Palestinian bank accounts, businesses and land and refuses to pay compensation to those who suffer confiscation?


Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of over 80 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?


Did you know that it was not until 1988 that Israelis were barred from running 'Jews Only' job ads?


Did you know that Sharon (the 'elected' leader of a democratic society) was held responsible for the massacre of more than 2750 Palestinians in the refugee camps of Sabra and Chatila? The UN qualified the massacre by Sharon as GENOCIDE.


Did you know that Sharon's commando unit in 1953 razed the Palestinian village of Qibya killing all its citizens and bombed all the houses, mosques and schools?


Did you know that Israel's settlement-building on Palestinian land increased considerably since the signing of the Oslo agreement?


Did you know that settlement building of Jewish only homes under Barak doubled compared to settlement building under Netanyahu?


Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?


Did you know that between 1967 and early 2002 Israel expropriated some 79% of the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Estimated figures published by Amnesty International in 1999 show the following:



Year Land Confiscated in the West Bank
1984 42%
1991 60%
1998 74%


Did you know that since between 1967 and early 2002 Israel demolished or sealed over 8500 homes, of which 2500 were in East Jerusalem alone? Houses are demolished as punitive measure or under the pretext of 'lack of building permit' - permits are rarely granted.


Did you know that the Ha'aertz Israeli paper estimated in 1998 (31 July) that a population of 5800 Jewish settlers in Hebron consumed 547 liters of water a day each? By contrast, a population of 119,230 Palestinians in the same area consumed or had access to no more than 58 litres per day each.


Did you know that since 1967, (and of course not counting the atrocities committed since March 2002) over 600,000 Palestinians have been jailed in Israeli jails and over 200 have died while in Israeli jails? During the first year of the second intifada alone, Israel arrested over 1900 Palestinians, of which 600 were children under 16.

Did you know that Israel uses torture routinely in jails (only against non-Jews of course) despite the Israeli High Court outlawing it?

» RE: did you know Posted by: babs
» RE: did you know Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: did you know Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: did you know - amen brother Posted by: DCostello
» RE: did you know Posted by: bullwinkle6969

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Fucked
Posted by: Glennk1949 on Aug 3, 2006 12:49 PM   
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Were all fucked if these are the nut jobs running the country.

» RE: Fucked Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: Fucked Posted by: famouspipeliner

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I AM A CHRISTIAN. I DO NOT READ IN THE BIBLE WHERE
Posted by: SamFox on Aug 3, 2006 12:54 PM   
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where it says Christ's followers are to help bring about Amageddon or the end of the world. That is NOT our JOB! Our 'job' is to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ, be salt & light in what scripture says is a lost & darkend world systym, spiritual Babylon. Our focus is to be primaraly on battling demonic & satanic princapalaties & powers in the spirit realm using SPIRITUAL weapons, but NOT BOMBS! While we recognize that these P & Ps sometimes work THROUGH individuals or groups of people, we are not called to kill them, blow them up or any such thing. That is God's province ALONE! If He does that it should be independant from Christians 'helping Him out' or 'lending Him a hand'. He is capable of taking care of the deivl & his minons all by Himself. We are to pray for our enimies & resist evil, not kill those who channel it.

IF what the author says is true & not a mis-representation, at this point to me it's a BIG IF!, I decry & protest ANY activity by any Christian to help bring the Lord back by starting some world war or any other kind.

Christian authority concernig end times 'warfare' is limited to the spirtual realm. We have no 'orders from above' to destroy any thing physical (especially other people) in that regard. We are allowed to pray, protest what the Bible says is evil, vote & so on. We are not allowed to kill.

IF- IF- what the artticle says is true, those men may them selves be agents of anti-Christ who stir things up so Christ & His Gospel can be further maligned & marginalized. I believe GWB is one of those.

Please folks, realize, NOT ALL Christians want to 'help' Jesus come back that way. He is quite capable of deciding the time He returns for Himself. I want to help Him come back by helping spread His Gospel of salvation & healing from sin into the earth. THAT is our job. That is what He said must happen prior to His return. He said NOTHING about Christians starting a war to bring about Armageddon!

Remember, some of us out here are NOT enamored with Mr. Bush. Repub & Dem Presidents & Congresses have BOTH left the borders open & allowed industry & jobs to leave the USA. THIS SELLOUT STRTED MANY YEARS AGO. IT IS NOT A NEW DEVELOPMENT. I touched on that in other posts on other headings on AlterNet.

It was prophasied by Christ Himself that "many will come in My Name..." as CIPOs (Christians In Profession Only). If you know the Bible you can better sort them out.

SamFox

» Actually... Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Actually... Posted by: DCostello
» Youre not a Christian. Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» BY LOVE Posted by: caru
» RE: Youre not a Christian. Posted by: MatthewSavage

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HYPOCRACY BY ANY OTHER NAME
Posted by: Gtrpicker on Aug 3, 2006 12:58 PM   
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I would love to be a fly on the wall when Bush finally gets his wish to meet Jesus. Jesus will look at him and say, "You did what in my name?" And then the fire and brimstone will be spectacular.
The supposed right to life family vaules types are not only doing everything that Jesus said not to do, they are also huge cowards. How else to explain the fact that they all want to go to heaven, but none of them ever want to die. They just want someone else to die.


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Let Hagee, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and all their followers lead the charge into battle
Posted by: stevepasek on Aug 3, 2006 1:19 PM   
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...and the resultant slaughter, which may not be end times for the planet, but certainly will be for the NeoCon / Evangelical alliance in this country, as all those votes will be coming back in pine boxes.

I think it's about time that the people calling for war step up and fight it. And everyone should be calling in to Bill OReilly and anyone else calling for war and ask them why they haven't signed up to fight...I think that should get them all to STFU.

Since most of the NeoCon leaders like to quote the "founding fathers" perhaps we should point out that those same patriots ALL fought in every conflict that they elected to engage in, rather than sending the poor to do their dirty work.


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Hagee does not represent all Christians......
Posted by: picket on Aug 3, 2006 1:23 PM   
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although many that post here are not able to make distinctions. Those that appear rabidly anti-faith, if given the authority, would be as bad as the religious right, only located at the far left.
Our Founding Fathers wanted separation of church and state for good reason. The right scares me but so do many of the anti faith people here at this site.
I learn so much here anyway, and love the discussion, and because millions of people of faith like me want the Neo Cons out of power, I will continue to participate in the political debate.


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NAPOLEAN SAID IT BEST
Posted by: ignition on Aug 3, 2006 1:38 PM   
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Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich!


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You are all sadly mistaken and will burn
Posted by: doctorsquared on Aug 3, 2006 2:04 PM   
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if you do not follow the will of the Almight Flying Spaghetti Monster! Have you been touched by His Noodly Appendage yet?


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What Happened to Rapture?
Posted by: Sparks56 on Aug 3, 2006 3:07 PM   
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"The world will never end. It's going to become a Garden of Eden, and Christ is going to rule it."

Jeez, what happened to rapture? I thought after Armeggedon the righteous were going to get yanked out of their clothes and rise naked and pure to live with God in heaven while we non-believers writhed in agony on a burning, scorched earth. I was so looking forward to it. Oh well.
If the idiots who actually believe all this dribble are not put in their place after the next election, with numbers that overwhelm Ohio-type electoral shenanigans, we can start to compose the epitaph of civilization.
I wonder what will be next.

» RE: What Happened to Rapture? Posted by: victorberry
» RE: What Happened to Rapture? Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle
» RE: What Happened to Rapture? Posted by: Aussie Kim

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I caught this dude hagee stealing cable TV about 20 years ago
Posted by: rebel_pig on Aug 3, 2006 3:34 PM   
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He had and still has a church in a ritzy suburb of San Antonio. He had a single outlet cable TV that was having problems. So he calls up the cable tv company, who sends me out. Turns out the problem was caused by hagee's homemade signal splitting connection.


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What if these bozos end the world and Godot doesn't show?
Posted by: tanstaafl28 on Aug 3, 2006 5:04 PM   
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It would suck if they threw the whole end of the world thingie and the "Big Man" was a no-show.


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Religion is hooey. There is no proof of the existance of God.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Aug 3, 2006 5:15 PM   
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However, religion keeps the ignorant and poor in line; otherwise, they may rush the gates of the ruling elite and rich to take what is rightfully everyones property.

As we are seeing today, the "Ape Children of Abramham" (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) have the world on the brink of destruction. This state is good for business, as long as it does not prove to be a miscalculation.

» Hell is... Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: Hell is... Posted by: ignition

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DON'T MOCK THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Jesse Cristo on Aug 3, 2006 5:20 PM   
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Alternet is EXACTLY WRONG to mock the spiritual gifts which Pastor Hagee uses according to God's will. This man can speak in tongues, cast out demons, and utter Prophecy. In fact, your hatred of Brother Hagee is implicitly anti-Semitic. Atheist leftists are always eager to align themselves with Hitler if it means they can exercise their grudge against Israel for abandoning socialism. Zionism is God's instrument to bring the Jews back into the fold; Brother Hagee supports Israel to that end.

» BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» question Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: question Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: question Posted by: aussidawg

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What do other intelligent beings think?
Posted by: douglashoyt on Aug 3, 2006 5:30 PM   
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I'll bet "space aliens" get a hoot from observing the irrational ignorance on this planet.

They may even bet on the date of our self inflicted destruction.


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New Words for New Age
Posted by: cognitorex on Aug 3, 2006 5:32 PM   
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From Bush et al we get....- WAR-MAGEDDON
and for climate policy, voila....- WARM-AGEDDON


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Getting worried
Posted by: Melvin on Aug 3, 2006 5:37 PM   
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AND ; POOF; we have global warming!
All it will take is "ONE" of these effing crazies to push the first button! the first nuke & it's over. True Global warming?


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MacBeth and Armageddon
Posted by: jcutler9 on Aug 3, 2006 6:11 PM   
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If you remember the tragedy of Macbeth--he heard the prophecy of the three witches that he would become King of Scotland. Not content to accept that the prophecy would be fulfilled in its own time, he decided to hasten it by killing the current king. We know how all that ended. But his hubris affected only a few lives.

The people who believe in Armageddon, not content to let it fall in God's own time, decide to take action to hasten it, presuming to know exactly what course God wants to follow to make it happen. And presuming to know when, even though Jesus himself said, "No man knows the hour of my coming." And presuming to know who He would save. Their own righteous selves of course. Their hubris carries with it the seeds of the destruction of our world. It will be the apocalypse all right, but not at God's decree.

The horror these people devise is beyond imagining. How is it that they have not been branded heretics for daring to presume to know God's will?


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lowest form of reasoning
Posted by: robmikejas on Aug 3, 2006 6:29 PM   
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Beleif if the lowest form of reasoning, just below opinion. The scientific way of deductive reasoning creates truth in it's most valuable form. Religious standards a re based on belief and so...It;s off to war we go!!


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THE REAL ANTI-CHRIST IS ...
Posted by: victorberry on Aug 3, 2006 7:11 PM   
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The real anti-Christ is not the European Union nor is it a person. The real anti-Christ is either 1) organized religion or 2) unregulated capitalism. Since I can't decide which it is, I'll let others choose. Note: Since our country has 'em both in spades, I guess a third choice for the anti-Christ would be the good ol' US of A.


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I DIDN'T KNOW BUT I'M LEARNING MORE ALL THE TIME
Posted by: victorberry on Aug 3, 2006 7:43 PM   
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Don't forget to mention the representative Democracy in Israel. The Palestinians make up about 20% of the total population. The Knesset has 120 members, so there should be about 24 Palestinian representatives, right? Wrong! There is only one Paestinian/Arab member!

Remember the Supreme Court ruling which upheld the right of the New London, CT, city government to use their power of eminent domain to sell off a viable neighborhood to a commerical business developer? Remember how angry most Americans were about it, even though the displaced residents received some compensation? Just imagine how the Palestinians must feel after 50 years of property confiscation without compensation! After a couple of decades of talking and getting nowhere, wouldn't you like to take up arms against your oppressor? The right wing governments of Israel have only themselves to blame for all this violence being perpetrated against them.


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Do-It-Yourself Impeachment
Posted by: Jodin on Aug 3, 2006 9:02 PM   
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Impeach Bush yourself! This is much more than just a petition.

There's a little known and rarely used clause of the in the rules for the House of Representatives which sets forth the various ways in which a president can be impeached. Only the House Judiciary Committee puts together the Articles of Impeachment, but before that happens, someone has to initiate the process.

That's where we come in. In addition to the State-by-State method, one of the ways to get impeachment going is for individual citizens like you and me to submit a memorial. ImpeachforPeace.org has created a new memorial based on one which was successful in impeaching a federal official in the past. You can find it on their website as a PDF.

You can initiate the impeachment process yourself by downloading the memorial, filling in the relevant information in the blanks (your name, state, etc.), and sending it in.

http://ImpeachForPeace.org/ImpeachNow.html

More information on the precedent for submitting an impeachment
memorial, and the House Rules on this procedure, can also be found at
the above address.

If you have any doubts that Bush has committed crimes warranting
impeachment, read this page: http://ImpeachForPeace.org/evidence/

If you're concerned that impeachment might not be the best strategy
at this point, read the bottom of this page: http://ImpeachForPeace.org

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace."
Bush, June 18, 2002

"War is Peace."
Big Brother in George Orwell's 1984


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As if!
Posted by: stargazer88 on Aug 4, 2006 7:18 AM   
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God will bring about the end times on his own schedule.

For Rev. Hagee and his mob to think they can force God's hand is hubris at best and blasphemy at worst.

I wonder if he's pondered this outcome: worldwide nuclear winter without the end of the world.


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Is God in the Abramoff scandal?
Posted by: lamar on Aug 4, 2006 9:49 AM   
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Shouldn't God be doing the lobbying in person?


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Lobbying????
Posted by: Reader11722 on Aug 4, 2006 1:30 PM   
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We are fast-tracking to Armageddon. As Israel bombs her neighbors, the US clamps down on freedoms at home by illegally wire-tapping phones, stealing private lands, banning books like "America Deceived" by E.A. Blayre III, and starting 2 illegal wars. Soon, the US will invade Iran (or Syria), touching off Amrmageddon in the Middle East. Add in another false-flag attack on US soil (like 9/11) and the masses will beg for the 'safety' of One World Gov't. Then we'll have Armageddon as the public revolts. Alex Jones, "The answer to 1984 is 1776"
Last link (before Google Books caves and drops the title):
America Deceived - Book


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now thas' sum gooood churchin'
Posted by: zombi on Aug 4, 2006 3:32 PM   
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wow. & i thought i was crazy. so he's goin' off of Ezekiel & Jeremiah eh...? well then, i hope he's made all the proper temple sacrifices & avoided things like pork, shellfish & planting two crops in one plot...'cause if he hasn't...

i really like it when politicians & military personel use the term "shock & awe". it's even better when religious "leaders" use the term. you know, it's categorized as the first step in cult brainwashing. seriously. in all the many steps involved w/ brainwashing, "shock & awe", those exact words, is the first technique used.

so, Jesus isn't going to ask to ordain pedophile priests & bishops, he's just going to do it? i'm not quite sure i got that one. perhaps a freudian slip on the "Evangelists" part?

one world government, one currency, one religion? well, when the private banks that make our money & determine it's value, make & determine the value of, i don't know, say, Russian or EU money, does this count as one currency? how about when they fund the armed forces of us & every major enemy we've had for the last 90 years? does that count as one government? how about 3 religions locked in a constant "struggle" (but still funded by the same people) that all come from one religious source? does that count as one religion? no, i guess not, because a blond haired, blue eyed jebus (not to be confused w/ Jesus) hasn't shown up on a white horse yet.

oh well. who knows really, i guess technically, according to that book of Revelations thingy, no one. but isn't it interesting to see that most of the far right, x-tian (not to be confused w/ Christian) flock haven't been so addled by thoughts of impending doom that they've stopped focusing on all those little things, like, say, money...or...their SUVs...or...money...or...secular politics...or...money...or their big, cushy, air conditioned suburban homes...or...money...or...other peoples oil...

i guess i got a far different version of the Garden of Eden than they did (maybe i didn't get "The Memo") HELP...SAVE ME WHITE JEBUS!!!

» and one more thing... Posted by: zombi

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What about rebuilding the Temple where the dome of the rock sits?
Posted by: Somedaysoon on Aug 4, 2006 6:57 PM   
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These people pick and choose the parts of the bible to serve their purpose. Generally, it is to instill fear among the sheep, and control of the flock. And if they make big money doing it they conveniently omit Jesus' admonishes on wealth. They are no more christians than they are free thinkers.


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what about his son?
Posted by: earthgarden on Aug 4, 2006 10:33 PM   
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If Hagee is so sure attacking Iran is right, then let him show his commitment by sending first his son and daughter.

» RE: what about his son? Posted by: concerned Canadian

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OH, THIS MUST BE CHURCH. I WAS LOOKING FOR SCHOOL.
Posted by: LMNOP on Aug 5, 2006 2:19 AM   
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Oh, excuse me. I must be lost. I was looking for Alternet when I ran into church services here by mistake.

Can anyone tell me where I find people discussing the *political* treatment of religion (among other things). I keep finding these "amen corners" for all the believers to try to convince the rest of us that don't care that Christianity is not as corrupt as Christians seem to be.

They want to talk about dogma and irrational beliefs, about how theirs are better than Pat Robertson’s. And they quote the Bible as if it was considered an authoritative source of anything other than somebody's fantastic reverie.

I can hardly think of anything more meaningless and less worth reading than the reasons why one form of religion is better than somebody else's. I'll tell you what: the Christian who can go his entire life without ever talking about religion where it is unwelcome is my kind of Christian. In fact, if I even know that you go to church or which one you think is the one true faith, you've talked about it way too much for my tastes.

I've said this before, and I believe that it remains true today. You cannot have an intelligent conversation about religion without it degenerating into sermons, and I refuse to be preached to by anyone who believes one of the religions. And as soon as you begin preaching like so many have here on this page, the conversation becomes as unwelcome as AIDS and as worthless as a discussion of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

I have made it appoint to respect the religious as long as they respect my secular space and my wish NEVER to be preached to by somebody who is guessing about an unseen reality of ghosts and spirits and has forgotten that fact. But that truce has been violated again by the "faithful" who just CANNOT STOP THEMSELVES FROM PREACHING TO THE UNINTERESTED. That stuff is about as welcome as finding out that the dinner that you were invited to was really an attempt to convert you into becoming an Amway sales zombie.

But that didn't happen...again. So I am expected to sit by and let others blather on to me about why their beliefs are right, yet I should also remain considerate and thoughtful of their feelings and beliefs by not expressing my equally certain belief that they are full of crap and please keep it to themselves.

So now, I've got to be the bad guy because I am unwilling to play the game where the beliefs of the religious are treated with respect but my beliefs can be disagreed with and called foolish and disastrous. Do you know how tired some of us get of hearing that crap and playing that game by those rules?

I believe that if you bring Jesus up for discussion in a mixed group, you are obliged to hear what the nonbeliever thinks about the wisdom of your choices, too.

I'll drop it here because I really do not want to offend the religious. But I am continually left with no choice but to either let them preach while I remain silent, or object out loud and be equated with Satan, to respect their beliefs and sensitivities as they trample over mine. That's when the truce breaks down, and I stop caring about who I offend.


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bullwinkle6969
Posted by: bullwinkle6969 on Aug 5, 2006 4:06 AM   
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Hope as you floating off to heaven you leave one of those big screen T V's behind. I sure could use one. Hell I might get lucky and your clothes will fit too!!!

» Funny story to go with that Posted by: medbear

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Armageddon imagined
Posted by: bookwoman on Aug 5, 2006 5:58 AM   
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Having not had their dreams and hopes realized with a Rapture in 2000, these members of the Radical Right (I will not bless them with the designation of Christians) are trying to bring on a homemade version. There have been other movements developed around the End of the World. There was such a situation in 1824 when hundreds of Americans purchased "Rapture Robes" for the trip. Needless to say the only people who benefited were the makers of the Rapture Robes.

To the best of my knowedge, the Bible does not say "And, then a group of priests will come forth and generate the end of time". I think that's supposed to be God's job.

If any of our leaders listen to these members of the clergy, I think that should be looked upon as treason and a danger to the citizens of this country which screams for impeachment.

As for Pat Robertson, I think the person who is detailed to make sure he takes his meds needs to be replaced.

» Rapture robes Posted by: medbear

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Re: This Must Be Church....No Sermon....
Posted by: picket on Aug 5, 2006 9:21 AM   
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I think what makes the discussion relevant is that Hagee & Co are meeting with our "so called" political leaders in Washington. It is important for Christians who disagree with the Hagee heresy to speak out against this cult.......but then the discussion here pits faith people against atheists or agnostics.
The put downs like burn in hell or "noodles in the sky" serve no useful purpose. Do we agree on just ONE goal? BushCo out of power?
Even if the discussion about end times theology was limited to "so called" Christians there would be no total agreement and they would be calling names in less than five minutes.

Atheists and Christians can be on the same side politically. If you do not believe this, Rove is winning the game, and we all are losers!


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It never occurs to these fools
Posted by: susannunes on Aug 5, 2006 4:21 PM   
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that it is entirely possible, even probable, that the Rapture will NEVER occur because the Book of Revelation, like the rest of the Bible, was NEVER intended to be taken literally.

It's one thing for foolish people to subscribe to such nonsense, but it is another to try and drag everybody else along with them by influencing policy.


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Religion is but an excuse
Posted by: medbear on Aug 6, 2006 4:25 AM   
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Most of the heinous actors portrayed on this blog, whether christian, muslim or others, are not motivated by religion, but other far more down-to-earth and sad inspirations.

The militant factions of Hamas and Hezballah are portrayed as muslim terrorists. Of course that is not untrue, since they are muslims, but first and foremost they are nationalists, motivated by what they see as occupation and unjust to their nations.

One poster pointed at the ayathollas that spurn suicide terrorism. The largest by far suicide terrorist organisation is the Tamil Tigers, which is a marxist-leninist organisation. But they too are first and foremost nationalists, motivated by a perceived occupation of what they consider their homeland.

And Iranian politics? Nationalistic as written in the textbook. Allah is just a morality stamp to legitimate it all.

The tale goes on and on. Religion is part of culture, and is an effective and natural tool to legitimate nationalistic or other more sinister tendencies. Even more so if the opponent represents a different culture, to include religion. This is nothing new. German soldiers had belt-buckles with "Gott mit uns" imprinted (God is with us).

One of Hitlers disappointments was not being able to make the Pope take side in WWII. If the Pope sided with Germany, great! If he sided with the allies, the Vatican could be attacked, since the Pope then obviously had betrayed his people (Germany was, and probably still is, a largely catholic community) - and in need of "early retirement" and replacement. If one could top the belt-buckle with a Pope, what would that do for support! How big an issue this was I am not sure of, but many has argued that the German decisions to keep all artifacts and art at Mt Cassino while it was obliterated was intended as a provocation to make the Pope take a position. (End of the war, support was starting to fail). That a fair share of artwork was saved by officers and soldier smuggling it out, hiding it in caves and such, makes the story of Mt Cassino even more thrilling.

Todays leaders obviously plays their religion just as one did 500 years back (e.g. the 30 Year War), when wars were fought between religious groups - but still with more mundane ends in mind than mere religious governance; rather land, wealth and power.

It has been noted many places in the posts here, that the religious zealots also enjoy wealth and power. Religion is just what made it happen.

Thank you all for inspiring posts!


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Those who want war against Iran...
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Aug 6, 2006 5:14 AM   
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...should be made to go fight there.

They should go and do their own dirty work while the rest of us sit back and get on with our lives.

They want war - they should fight it.

NOT anyone else. If they are so convinsed they are doing the right (Far Right) thing, then they should have the guts and the honour to do it themselves.


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Discount Perfume
Posted by: perfumeamor on Aug 7, 2006 6:00 AM   
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Designer perfumes at discount perfume prices. all perfume up to 70% off retail price. http://www.perfumeportal.co.uk


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About Time!
Posted by: PGC on Aug 7, 2006 7:30 AM   
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Well, its about time we are having a discussion like this!

And folks, it doesn’t look good. With the present gang of leaders we have, including the Iranians…… we are in deep SH#@. People don’t seem to realize this or have come to terms with this.

These leaders, Iran included, are beholden to their political bases ,their agendas and notions. You want further evidence:

The administration must have known the eschatology of the Iranians from the transition period ( if they didn’t know before) The CIA could not have made such an oversight. And of course our dutiful “free” American corporate press, scratch that , corporate stenographers never gave the US/ Western public a heads-up on these aspects of the Iranian, having received no dictations to do so.

It seems to me , if your objective is a peaceful middle east, and you are armed with all this intel, then the prudent sequence of events would be; take the cosy-up of the Iranians in 2002, try to arrange a popular over throw of those clerics with their eschatology, ( there are clerics who want State/mosque separation), then
Democratize Iraq, and try to do it without “shock and awe”. Was this stupidity or worst yet intentional stupidity because these folks are beholden to…….

Then to make matters worst, they enter Iraq with all sort of religiosity perspective, Senators visiting ancient religious sites, not carrying plans to build civil society in Iraq, and then wonder why we are having a sectarian outcome there?

Yes folks, we are in deep stuff because of these literalists. Recall Chernobyl, Irish kids couldn’t drink local milk for how long.? It’s all our problem. WE have to take some hard look at out political leaderships.

As to our “press”, too bad the public can’t charge them with treason, for the dis-service provided.

http://etisoppa.blogspot.com/


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A delusion built on a fantasy...
Posted by: Gazza126 on Aug 7, 2006 5:49 PM   
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James Allegro, one of the first scholars to study the 'Dead Sea Scrolls,' came to the conclusion that Christianity started as a (phychedelic) mushroom cult.

Wouldn't it be funny if he was right???

Alternet Comments:

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They're businessmen, not religious believers
Posted by: nbrown on Aug 3, 2006 12:21 AM   
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Pat Robertson is a millionaire. He's a businessman, not a relgious follower.

He has a tangible incentive in supporting violence against Iranians. The more hatred Christians feel against Iranians and Muslims in general, the more power Robertson gains as a figure in the Christian biz. Apart from his diamond mines and other ventures, his Christian-related stuff is worth a lot of money.

» WEALTH IS GOD'S GIFT TO PROPHETS Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» GOD'S GIFT OF WEALTH Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: GOD'S GIFT OF WEALTH Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: GOD'S GIFT OF WEALTH Posted by: DCostello
» RE: GOD'S GIFT OF WEALTH Posted by: sethmo
» RE: GOD'S GIFT OF WEALTH Posted by: paulaH
» RE: WEALTH IS GOD'S GIFT TO PROPHETS Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: WEALTH IS GOD'S GIFT TO PROPHETS Posted by: famouspipeliner
» Stop feeding the trolls {nt} Posted by: axolotl_helix

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Power of belief
Posted by: wrongone on Aug 3, 2006 12:41 AM   
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is a dangerous thing. Each one of us as humans surround ourselves with people and situations that fulfill our belief structures. If you are a religous person, your friends and peers tend to be just as religous. If you are a drunk, your friends and peers will be at the bars you frequent. The same can be said for all walks of life.
We need to decide as a species whether or not we want to allow those in charge to push us down the road towards armegeddon.
The book of Revelations points out the intricacies that our world unravels in order to allow the believers of it's faith everlasting salvation.
As such, people whom line up behind this belief structure yearn for the day that Armegeddon commences. If for no other reason than to validate there belief system.
Is validation in a belief system worth world destruction???
Reality is nothing more than a common agreement among all of us.
We can choose to kill ourselves for the benefit of a few, or we can agree on a different path.
I think it is a decision we all face right now.
I made my choice, and I hope enough of us do.
I refuse to allow our future to be dictated by the powerful few and their antiquated scripts of morality and salvation.
An eternity in hell is a fair price to pay, as long as this planet and it's inhabitants are spared the indignity of one faith's belief
in self destruction.

» RE: Power of belief Posted by: jreinhart1
» RE: Power of belief Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Power of belief Posted by: daniyls
» Danilys Posted by: wrongone

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Left Turn
Posted by: ltobs on Aug 3, 2006 12:52 AM   
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Interesting on how this compares to pre WWI in England. Church leaders were huge advoacates of going to war based in part on thier own end times scenarios. Wh know how WWI ended.

» RE: Left Turn Posted by: Nigelthebriton
» my thoughts exactly Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Left Turn Posted by: Lauren

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Self-fulfilling prophecy
Posted by: Moonray on Aug 3, 2006 1:43 AM   
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Ironically, the wingnuts lobbying for war against Iran could bring about the very holocaust they believe has been preordained.

It seems unlikely that a war against Iran can prevent that country from obtaining or developing a nuclear weapon. (The neocon war planners probably harbor fantasies about effecting a regime change, but to this layman that seems most unlikely.)

And a trumped-up war on Iran -- as dangerous and repulsive as that regime is -- would provide ample excuse for Muslim hard-liners everywhere to concentrate their nuclear ambitions on the U.S. and Israel. (Oddly, the neocons and Christian nutjobs seem unconcerned with the fact that Pakistan, another hard-line Islamic nation, has about 200 nukes and reportedly plans to build many more. Go figure.)

All this is yet another reason for the United Nations to begin a global campaign to limit the effects of religion on governments and societies. A good first step: Banning the indoctrination of children under 18 into any supernatural belief system.

» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: Snorom Larebil
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: ekwhite
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: cmaukonen
» "limiting" religion.... Posted by: ChrisBieber
» RE: "limiting" religion.... Posted by: cmaukonen
» RE: "limiting" religion.... Posted by: brunowe
» RE: "limiting" religion.... Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: pjpatten
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: rinpochet
» RE: Self-fulfilling prophecy Posted by: pjpatten
» UNbelievable Posted by: Lloyd Drako

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Christian crazies and Iranian's President actually agree on someting (kinda)
Posted by: Snorom Larebil on Aug 3, 2006 2:33 AM   
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Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad thinks the end time is near, of course he subscribes to the Islamic version, which is actually similar.

He has even taken steps to prepare for the "promised one" who will "fill this world with justice and peace."

Great read!

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48225

» Are any facts in error? Posted by: Snorom Larebil
» Ahmadinejad Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» I don't hate anyone! Posted by: ignition
» Ahmedinejad is loony because Posted by: Lloyd Drako

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What we have here is a recipe for disaster
Posted by: Lizmv on Aug 3, 2006 3:11 AM   
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A dry drunk of a president being advised by religious nutbars and supported by a codependant Congress. Throw in the Earth's largest stockpile of Weapons Of Mass Destruction and hand the button to the dry drunk president. Add to the blend a population suffering Post Tramatic Stress that has been numbed to the true threat of nuclear war. Whip until frenzied.


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Hagee and the Jerusalem Post
Posted by: NoNut on Aug 3, 2006 3:35 AM   
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First, Hagee's opinion on the end times is a small minority amongst Protestant Christians, and the fringe of evangelical Protestant Christians.

Second, Hagee has numerous other theological problems. His weird theology bears its distorted fruit in his eschatology. His teaching is bearly Christian.

Third, didn't the Jerusalem Post recently put words in Robertson's mouth (no mean feat since Robertson's foot has taken up regular residence there of late) and then have to retract their statement? As a matter of fact, I believe Hagee was involved in that somehow also. They attributed to Robertson something Hagee said. Robertson denied it and Hagee backpeddled a bit. Perhaps not the most reliable rag when it comes to what evangelcials say.

Finally, the comment "who believe our allies are evil incarnate" is a misrepresentation of an incorrect doctrine. Hagee and others do not believe that Europe is the antichrist, rather that the Antichrist will rise from Europe, a reconstituted Roman Empire. They believe he will rise as a political leader and then assert himself as a false god. Given their own wrong doctrine, I don't understand how they believe they can trigger the end times through political means. Just weird.

» RE: Is Hagee REALLY fringe? Posted by: Jasonix

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It'll never happen...
Posted by: adp3d on Aug 3, 2006 3:37 AM   
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...because only they will have the will to engage. The US military has been weaken beyond belief with the current conflict. The majority of the country and the world is war weary at best. Now, if these guys want to marshall themselves into a 700,000 strong army, I say more power to 'em, It will bring about the "End Times" for some of them at least.

» RE: It'll never happen... Posted by: Lizmv

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easy it is
Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 3, 2006 3:44 AM   
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This piece shows how easy it is for some religious leaders to become insane and to lead their followers into insane activities. It also illuminates how close to insanity our Bushie leaders have become with their massive war crimes already commited and with their projected massive increases in war crimes. Maybe it's God's way of reducing our overpopulation which is leading us toward environmental armageddon.

» RE: easy it is Posted by: rhinojos
» Damn! Posted by: famouspipeliner

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no better than
Posted by: fruitcrow on Aug 3, 2006 3:52 AM   
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the most extreme ayatollas who encourage desperate youth to sacrifice their lives in suicide bombings so they can attain paradise!! This is actually more dangerous and extreme as it is on a mass scale!!


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Funny they should pull a page from Jeremiah for this
Posted by: BJT on Aug 3, 2006 4:19 AM   
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Jeremiah is filled with indictments against the bureaucrats of the time who ignored justice, ignored God, and exploited the poor.


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None of us can do a thing about this though...
Posted by: riffraff2001 on Aug 3, 2006 4:42 AM   
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because some very influential people in this country believe these things are supposed to happen, thus it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The motivation behind it is simple. Conservative Christians want to be right about religion so much that they will in fact make the prophecies happen just so they can say they were right. They're going to be very disappointed when there is no return of Christ after their great war. But sane people can't stop it because these people have power and influence. It's reports like this one that really make me want to go build a log cabin out in the wilderness somewhere and just forget the rest of the world is even out there. There's just too many crazy people in this world to deal with.


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We Who Are Wide Awake
Posted by: wawa on Aug 3, 2006 5:19 AM   
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Have been reporting for over a year about neo-con, neo-christian zionist fundamentalists who first infiltrated the White House during the Regan years.

What these fundamentalists leave behind is the true message of Christ: love, forgiveness, do not judge the non-believer, and remain NONVIOLENT even to the point of one's own death.

"KEEP HOPE ALIVE" not ONLY exposes and blows apart the heretical 200 year old theology of these fundamentalists who believe they can bring Christ back through a nuclear war,

"KEEP HOPE ALIVE" is also a basic education regarding the Israeli Palestinian conflict, my eye witness report from the other side of The Wall,

"KEEP HOPE ALIVE" also picks up where Dan Brown's DaVinci Code left you off...

Order info on August 3
WAWA BLOG


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Hagee the Righteous
Posted by: robmikejas on Aug 3, 2006 5:30 AM   
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I have a friend, whom I cherish, who belongs to the Cornerstone Church under the leadership of John Hagee. She believes every word her minister says. This is a dangerous man, no doubt. I have seen her go from a moderate, tolerant human being to a rabid, religiously addicted follower in a few short years. The in depth theological discussions we once held are no more. There is no room for disagreement or rational give and take in our conversations. Hagee has her so deeply indoctrinated that I barely know her now. His church is nothing more than a cult and a rather large one at that. How do you respond to such perverted brainwashing? I love this person and am horrified to see her slip into such moral decline.

» RE: Hagee the Righteous Posted by: Domokun
» RE: Hagee the Righteous Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Hagee the Righteous Posted by: AlienSlave
» RE: Hagee the Righteous Posted by: JAXC

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just a thought
Posted by: tocarr on Aug 3, 2006 5:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where, exactly, does God come into their plan?
I was always taught that it was He who decided when the
end would come.
I think all of these "evangelicals" have taken too much away
from God and the scriptures.
They are the ones to watch out for. Not Saddam, Iran, or
any foreign power.
They are mostly liars and theives.

» RE: just a thought Posted by: NoNut
» RE: just a thought Posted by: ekwhite

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Christianists that lust after death and destruction will get their wish
Posted by: xbj on Aug 3, 2006 5:39 AM   
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Christianists who lust after death and destruction and work earnestly for Armageddon will get their wishes fulfilled, beyond their wildest dreams.

But not only will they not like it when it finally occurs, involving not just the Mideast but the utter destruction of their own beloved USA as well, they will be woefully amazed when they are cast after their real god Lucifer into the molten lake of fire interior of Venus.

They won't be coming out either.

This may well be their last warning.


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Fundamentalist evangelicals are dangerous
Posted by: greentime on Aug 3, 2006 5:40 AM   
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They are as unhinged as any other extreme religious radical zealots.

They are not peaceful, they are war mongers.

They are truly dangerous because they deeply believe they have a god-given right to destroy, or aid in the destruction of the earth!!!

If they weren't from inside of America, we would consider them terrorists.

They pray and shout and long for the destruction of the rest of us who don't fall in line with their dangerous beliefs.

Their beliefs are vicious and unsound.

We shouldn't be surprised that the non-Christian majority of the world and also Christians who are not apocalyptic, WILL see them that way and begin to treat them accordingly. They seek to destroy, they hate, they threaten the planet and ALL cultures on it.

Are we harboring world terrorists by remaining silent in the face of this death wish for all of us born of the hypocricy of the radical evangelical Christians?

Those of us who don't see WWIII as an option would do well to stand up to this very real threat. Rapture is not an option for us.

I love this planet and accept my dependency on the fragile web of life it supports. We have no right - any of us - to monopolize or destroy this most precious gift - our home and home to all life.

» RE: Sorry SamFox, I disagree Posted by: greentime

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sickofsleaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Aug 3, 2006 5:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know why they are so eager for Armageddon, they will be the first on the train to hell. Personally I believe the Bush regime is the Antichrist. My religious counselor tells me the Antichrist is not necessarily one person.

» RE: sickofsleaze Posted by: channing

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Birds of a feather.
Posted by: Krotos on Aug 3, 2006 6:00 AM   
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You want the UN to outlaw religion? Pity you weren't born in the Soviet Union under Stalin; you would have been right at home.

The fundamental problem behind this mess is that there are people who feel entitled to force their beliefs about religion on others.

And in that sense, I consider militant atheists like you to be no better than the Islamists and the Christofascists.

-K.Ai.-

» Ooops Posted by: Krotos
» RE: Birds of a feather. Posted by: 1984NOW!!!

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how many years
Posted by: karyse on Aug 3, 2006 6:07 AM   
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I always ask Christians how many years would have to pass before they no longer believe the "prophesy" of Jesus' return.
5000, 10,000, 20,000 years?

Afterall, the original time span was stated as "This generation shall not pass..." A whole hell of a lot of generations have passed since that promise was supposedly uttered.

Their answer is that no amount of years passed would alter their belief in the "immanent return." Doesn't their answer tell you everything that you need to know about people who believe based on faith? Doesn't the answer prove that faith is a kind of psychological illness that is so irrational that anyone claiming to believe anything at all based on faith should be prevented from holding any office that requires decision making?

The rapture is a win-win situation. Personally, I would be ecstatic if all the faithful everywhere simply vanished one morning.

» Paradox of faith. Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Paradox of faith. Posted by: Jimbo
» "This Generation ..." Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: how many years Posted by: Lauren

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Dangerous times
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Aug 3, 2006 6:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any American who wants to stand to prevent the coming debacle must first realize that there are three groups using each other to force our government into war. Their motives are different but their goal is the same, war in the Middle East. These groups are the militant Jews, the militant Christians, and the corporate establishment.

The most dangerous of these is the corporatocracy which already controls our government to a great extent through campaign financing and lobbying. With the support of the Jews and the Christian Right this minority will gain the legitimacy of numbers.

Anyone who wants to avoid war must stand up now, before the election. We must tell both parties that we won't vote for a party which doesn't have a plan for peace. Join The Lincoln Initiative, not an organization but a strategy to make "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" a reality. We have less than 100 days.
Bob Reichenbach
lincoln0212@msn.com

» Four Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Four Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Dangerous times Posted by: Jesse Cristo

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A veiled polemic
Posted by: ekwhite on Aug 3, 2006 6:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is amazing that so many people try to bring about 'prophecies' in a book that was a veiled polemic against the Roman empire. It is no accident that Nero's name adds up to 666 in the Gamatria system, and that his nickname was 'The Beast.'

» A veiled polemic???????????? Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: A veiled polemic Posted by: ignition
» yes, quite so. Posted by: Ghoulman

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An evil triumvirate?
Posted by: redstarwraith on Aug 3, 2006 6:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've seen this reported in various guises elsewhere on Alternet although Sarah sheds some new light on "Rev." Hagee. Yes, it is interesting to ask the question at what point do Neocon dreams and extreme right-wing Xn fundamentalism intersect. It becomes difficult to see just who is leading whom around. The neocon vision (as such) has nothing to do with religion and the (so-called) religious view of Hagee et al does not really originate from a secular idea, yet both sides use the other to legitimate their own interests. Added to these strange bedfellows we have to add certain Israeli factions to the mix. I have a difficult time believing that most Israelis (even those in the knesset) actually believe any of this perverted Xn form of the apocalypse mythology; Judaism certainly doesn't teach anything like it. I suspect Israeli "support" for this mythology stems from the fact that all of this really translates into continued financial support for Israel. Sarah is certainly correct that Russia would never stand idly by and watch the U.S. invade Iran, and rightly so, Iran and Russia have cultivated a nice diplomatic relationship with each other (a talent that is sorely lacking within our American administration wherein "statesman" is another way of saying, "retired military guy with a hard-on for war"). Yet, I predict that, sooner or later this whole dicked-up triumvirate of madness will destroy itself internally. There are too many inherent contradictions in mixing up secular Israel with right wing Xn fundamentalism plus secular neocon tomfoolery.
For a very insightful read on all this, pick up Gershom Gorenberg's excellent book "The End of Days: Fundamentalism and the Struggle for the Temple Mount"


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Everything in perspective
Posted by: redstarwraith on Aug 3, 2006 7:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, the religious aspect of this whole fiction is a shambles! One need only look at the story of how the Bible was put together and suddenly all this apocalypse mumbo-jumbo seems very different. Everything in its historical context people! The books of the Bible WERE NOT "divinely ordained." They were decided on by a group of men who were the elite of their day. If commoners would have had a say in the construction and editing of the Bible, The Gospel of James would have probably been front and center! Hagee, et al are tapping into the most primal and awful level of a religion (that of the ancient Hebrews) that had not really transcended its own barbarity and tribalism. Read the Bible. See if the early forms of Judaism do not look, sound and behave as a tribal religion. Judaism became humane only when the rabbis defanged it.

» RE: verything in perspective Posted by: aussidawg
» It's a big problem for these folks. Posted by: MatthewSavage

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I don't think it counts...
Posted by: Farmertim on Aug 3, 2006 7:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if the believers per say, bring about Armagedon...if they do I think they may be in for one "Hell" of a suprise.......
And just what part of "thou shall not kill thy neighbor" don't they understand???
FarmerTim


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Church and Hate
Posted by: Pippi on Aug 3, 2006 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are the people who don't want humans messing with life in the womb. But they can mess with hundreds of thousands of lives outside the US? They live in Old Testament times and have no business calling themselves religious much less Christian. "I'm for the separation of Church and Hate." (from a bumpersticker by www.northernsun.com)

» RE: Church and Hate Posted by: AlienSlave

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thinking on the premise of this article...
Posted by: ellie on Aug 3, 2006 7:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is quite clear about the state of religion in this country right now. It scares the hell out of me that people are willing to tinker with the concept of end times. For the sake of what? Why are people willing to destroy and kill the folks next door who don’t go to the same church? Simplistic I know, but sometimes reductionism has it’s place. The part that freaks me out is that tinkering with time always ends in disaster. Things happen when they are supposed to happen and not a second sooner. Personal thoughts.

Now onto the topic at hand. The issue doesn’t really seem to be forcing Christianity down the throat of people and let’s remove the point of mega churches making their leaders incredibly wealthy with greed. Let’s look at social change. Humans do not evolve as fast as technology and we always have a culture lag going on. When the disconnect happens between people and technology (the gap becomes too wide to understand), people will turn over every rock they can find for some sort of explanation and to hide in a false sense of security. In western society, the favorite panacea is religion. In this case, religion in all of it's flavors can be called power for the powerless in the hands of globalization, corporatization and limiting resources to people to help them make independent decisions.

For me, the irony of this article is that as I sit at my little desk stalling on writing a lecture for fall semester, the lecture topic is social control.


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Not the end of the world, only the end of the Church - thank God
Posted by: DCostello on Aug 3, 2006 7:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This latest experiment in monotheism, Christianity, has shown, once again, it doesn't work. It's been tried before, twice, both were miserable failures ending very simialarly to how this one will end but much nastier for the rest of us.

Monotheism, one people one God, is the most corruptable and contempable forms of religion. It is the root cause of the black and white world we're presented with today - if you're not with us, you're against us. One people, one God, one Ceasar, the Divine Right of Kings, the "shining city on the hill" USA.

It's all just a power play. A way for the few to control the many. I'm not sure who first made the statement but, religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich and powerful.

When you crazy Christians finally get your Armageddon and kill each other off, then the rest of us, what's left, will experience your "heaven on earth".

So, please hurry, genocide yourselves so the world can be a safer and more Christian place.

» Which church? Posted by: MatthewSavage

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Lobbying for Armageddon
Posted by: D-of-G on Aug 3, 2006 7:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is so amazing, given the passage of so much time and history, that as a collective, human beings cannot grasp that the (uni)-verse- one song, has one soul, with one "destiny!" It is a destiny that is without time, space and DISTINCTIONS. These are the illusory perceptions of Man! But unfortunately, at the present time, the world is being dangerously held together, myopically, by those who believe in perpetuating perverse competition, homicide to vindicate homicide, ignorance and fear.
All that needs to be understood about the relevant topic is that if God, according their own bible, is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, "HE" does not need an agent!

» RE: Lobbying for Armageddon Posted by: harris

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let's start a fund
Posted by: aislinnluv on Aug 3, 2006 7:52 AM   
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to give these wackos (DANGEROUS wackos) all a pair of black sneakers and a blanket to hide under while they wait for the end times... preferably after a little poison cocktail. i can't believe that we allow these freaks to walk the streets. IF there were a god and IF he were planning an armageddon, why would he require the assistance of some jerk-off religious psychopath to light the match? will no one rid (us) of this meddlesome priest?


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It's clear
Posted by: JeffKleist on Aug 3, 2006 7:54 AM   
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Religion is the only mental illness that gets the unquestioning bye

It must be banned, and it's adherents given the mental help they need for their delusions.

At the very least, televangelism and megachurches must be banned, and all churches assessed an 85% fraud tax in addition to all other taxes

God must be proven in a court of law, and must appear to testify. until then, if you are religious you are a danger to yourself and others as you are commanded to murder and pillage in his name. You are REQURED to murder all nonbelievers, and if you're not doing it, you're going to hell

ANd remember Matthew 14:15, even Jesus approves. "I have not come to undo the old laws, b ut to fufill them"

» RE: It's clear Posted by: HuckFinn
» Religion came from drugs Posted by: alterhead
» RE: It's clear Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: It's clear Posted by: 1984NOW!!!

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Spock
Posted by: Spock on Aug 3, 2006 7:54 AM   
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The trouble is that Hezbollah and Iran are planning a nuclear attack on the U.S. right now. They'll do it with "backpack" SADMs they already have, massing them in a big city - St. Louis or Omaha, I expect - until the 1.9 kiloton yield of the SADM (Small Atomic Demolition Munition) is that of the Hiroshima bomb or bigger.

The terrorists will use small aircraft (like those I wrote about in my novel, "Jonatha's Truth'), and skydive with the bombs. That's why Hezbollah and al Qa'ida have been seen in parachute training recently.

If they're smart (as opposed to theatrical as the Arab always must be), they'll attack the IRS Headquarters at Martinsburg, WVA. That would cripple the economy. It could be even worse, should terrorism become really tactical instead of just maniacal and suicidal.

I've noticed in watching the media and perusing the many website forums that most people, even those with a great deal of information and learning, don't think very well when it comes to tactics. That's another very real problem in a democracy during times like these.

I've detailed how I think Iran and the Hezbollah will attack the U.S. on my own website www.judoknighterrant.com

» RE: Spock Posted by: Joshua Holland
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» RE: Spock Posted by: Spock

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Who are they to FORCE God's hand!
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Aug 3, 2006 8:06 AM   
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These are truly sick humans that believe they can force God's hand to the end of times by promoting the slaughter of people and cheering death and destruction of people around the world, the destruction of our water, lands and hope that 1/3rd of all people, land and water will be wiped out or made unusable. That is what they believe (been there). These people are far more evil than anyone that has had their feet on this planet as they pray for it's destruction!


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No Need for Foreign Terrorists
Posted by: pcushniesr on Aug 3, 2006 8:14 AM   
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The need for foreign terrorists to strike within the US is over. No person with a bomb could do more harm to this country than what this administration and the christian right are doing (I will not dignify that benighted segment of the population with capital letters). I would not, however, be surprised if something that APPEARED to be an attack were to occur before November. Call me nuts, but I would not put it past right-wing extremists to stage a "terrorist" event before the election.

» RE: No Need for Foreign Terrorists Posted by: Steve_in_NH

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Impeach people such as these from our government.
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Aug 3, 2006 8:21 AM   
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These diseased minds are in our congress, senate and whitehouse. They look forward every day for death and destruction with joy! There have never been a more perverted people on the face of this earth and should outed as the ultimate evil people that they truly are. The leaders that follow this brainwashing should be exposed in the legislative, judicial and executive branches and removed from office as not being competent to lead.


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to rule is to serve
Posted by: caru on Aug 3, 2006 8:21 AM   
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where i drop christianity: LORD. that one word is full of so much.

when i lived in kentucky as a preteen i received a flyer in 1977 that pretty much said what this hagee guys says. these violent thugs have been seeking world destruction for some time.

the simple truth is the world needs to heal from violence. all together now ... all together now.

then we can move on to the real deal.

TO RULE IS TO SERVE.

» RE: to rule is to serve Posted by: Lauren

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Hagee, and those like him, are trying to play God
Posted by: writer33 on Aug 3, 2006 8:24 AM   
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It's really a monstrous stretch of self-righteous bigotry for these evangelical "Christians" to want to bring about Armageddon. In effect, what Hagee is doing is playing God! He and others like him are attempting to take it upon themselves to accelerate the event of Armageddon. By thinking this way, they are abandoning their own Christian teachings. What they fail to acknowledge is that Armageddon will come in God's time, not theirs! And Revelation clearly says those who bring Armageddon are the evil ones, and by their rush to start a war with Iran, or any other, they themselves become part of the evil they so feverishly rail against! What is it about "Thou shalt not kill" that they fail so miserably to understand?


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religion is not the opiate of the people
Posted by: bob8954 on Aug 3, 2006 8:25 AM   
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it seems to act like methamphetamine


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armedeggon
Posted by: rogeralexander on Aug 3, 2006 8:28 AM   
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My late mother and two sisters here in India (can you believe it?) pray for an an Armeggedon every day! Who cares if it's a nuclear holocaust? The Second Coming is more important! Sorry guys, you holier-than-thou types in the US reap what you sow. We Indians were much more tolerant before. Not now.

» RE: armedeggon Posted by: concerned Canadian
» RE: armedeggon Posted by: babs
» RE: armedeggon Posted by: albrechtkrausse

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But this too was prophesied...
Posted by: psilver58 on Aug 3, 2006 8:31 AM   
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People of faith are not all dumb. I am a physicist and engineer and also have a degree in theological studies from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in the Boston area. At GCTS, of the hundreds of students I met, mostly "evangelical" protestants, exactly none subscribed to these Armageddon-inducing lunacies. In fact, Christ made it very clear: "Blessed are the peacemakers" and "Love your enemies."

During the first three hundred years of their existence within the Roman Empire Christians proclaimed Christ as "Lord and Savior," claiming the very title that the Emperor reserved exclusively for himself. Result? Christians were persecuted, but over time prevailed nonetheless.

As for Israel, Christ's apostles made it clear that the true Israel is not a geopolitical national security state. They did not support a revival of the national Israel, and were therefore driven out of the temple by the conventional Jews, who held that you had to be genetically in line with Abraham and ritually circumcised in order to belong to the people of God. But the apostle Paul, who gave his life preaching the way of Christ, said that circumcision of the body means nothing; only "circumcision" of the heart means anything. It's all very, very clear that original Christianity was not a doctrine about supporting some earthly "holy land." And more than that, original Christianity was not a doctrine about supporting any national security state, whether Israel, Rome, or the United States. It's about a voluntary transnational community -- not a literal nation state -- of those who believe in living according to the principles of grace, mercy, forgiveness, unconditional love, sharing, cooperation. These principles, as has been pointed out by numerous commentators, some of them "christian," are totally "impractical" from the worldly point of view. Marxists and fascists alike mock true Christ-likeness. They say you must use force, and so forth. And yet, we have it on the authority of Roman historians themselves, that Christians living within their Empire were entirely non-violent during the first three centuries...and yet it was Christ who prevailed as Lord and Savior, not Caesar.

Anyway, what these Armageddon lunatics are doing is, yes, setting up what they secretly hope will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. But their folly will be made plain when the ruling elite of this world proffer up a counterfeit techno-christ in Jerusalem. Millions of "good, bible-believing evangelicals" who follow people like Hagee and LaHaye as well as many "non-religious" people will be deluded into thinking that the authentic Christ has returned. It is the psuedo-christ who will lead the world to a fiery end. But this too was prophesied!

As for the authentic Christ and his appearance in fullness at the end of history, that is a matter of faith. I believe it, most don't, and that's your business, not the government's. What I can say for sure is that all witnesses agree that Jesus never supported violence, not even allowing his own disciples to defend him when the temple Jews came to arrest him (see Mel Gibson's movie, it's gruesomely faithful to eye-witness accounts). Jesus said, rather, "Put up your sword," and "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." He also said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," the implication being that karma brings back to us what we give out: kindness to those who are kind; violence to those who are violent. One would expect, therefore, that Armageddon lunatics who deliberately incite a nuclear conflagration, though they might ironically be instrumental in ushering in the fullness of Christ's appearance on earth, would not enjoy the peace and blessedness that Christ promised his faithful. They would rather, one would expect, be top drawer candidates for the shame, confusion, and humiliation reserved for "evildoers."

» eye-witness accounts?? Posted by: alterhead
» RE: eye-witness accounts?? Posted by: ignition

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Verifiable proof that "Armageddon" has already begun…
Posted by: SevenStarHand on Aug 3, 2006 8:29 AM   
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Hello all,

Remember the saying that "the truth will set you (and others) free?"
Here's the key to proving that the rapture and related expectations are complete nonsense based on the failure to understand (and the purposeful confounding of) the ancient Hebrew symbology used to construct all of these prophecies. Consequently, Christian timelines and interpretations of these prophecies are verifiably wrong on many key points.

Pay close attention, profundity knocks at the door, listen for the key. Be Aware! Scoffing causes blindness...

Did you ever consider that Christianity is the False Prophet symbolized in the Apocalypse, that Rome (Vatican/Papacy) is the so-called anti-messiah, and Jesus Christ is the false messiah? I have produced stunning and comprehensive proof that this is the true interpretation of pivotal prophecies long confounded by Christianity's founders and leaders. Recasting the symbolism of earlier Hebrew texts as literal events in the New Testament is one of the central deceptions associated with Christianity.

The symbolism of seven years (tribulation, etc.) refers to seven 360-year cycles on the Hebrew calendar. Ezekiel 39.9 is referring to the 10th to 16th cycles inclusive, while the Apocalypse symbolizes the 11th cycle (second temple period) until now, the beginning of the 17th cycle (seventh angel/star/seal, etc.). Greece (Alexander the Great) conquered the Persian Empire and Judea during the 10th cycle and Rome did so again during the 11th cycle. Both Ezekiel and the Apocalypse are symbolizing an overlapping period of time that starts during ancient Judea and ends now. Gog refers to Greco-Romans (...from the "isles"), which means Magog is Eurasia and the "army" that besets "Israel" for seven "years" refers to the activities of the nations of the Greco-Roman/Vatican Empire over the previous two-plus millennia.

It is completely wrong to interpret any of these prophecies as literal timelines and events. Unlike Christian assertions, they symbolize long periods of time, pivotal situations, and the flow of acivities during that period. Remember, they were written by ancient Hebrew sages, not Romans or other Europeans, and Revelation is the most symbolic of all prophecies. Consequently, in this context, "years" and "times" are symbols for 360-year cycles on the Hebrew calendar and days symbolize literal years. Therefore "Judgement Day," "Great Day" and "in that day" all refer to a literal year-long period. Accordingly, the so-called "Seven Years Tribulation" began in ancient Judea and is now nearing its end, not starting. The nations and followers of all three faiths of Abraham have been thoroughly deceived by Rome during the previous age, which ended in year 2000 (5760). A new age began in 2001 (5761) and now the seventh angel has begun to sound!

Here's a real hot potato! Eat it up, digest it, and then feed it's bones to the hungry...

These ancient prophecies and wisdom texts used advanced symbology to model fundamental wisdom, including future events and situations. My decryption, documentation, and interpretation of ancient symbology, numeric symbolism, and key texts based on them, are now decisively validated.

Here is Wisdom...

Verifiable proof that Armageddon has begun…

Understanding the End Game of Armageddon

Peace...

» RE: bmartling… Posted by: Lincoln fan

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Brother Hagee has the Anointing of Prophecy!!!!!!
Posted by: Jesse Cristo on Aug 3, 2006 8:38 AM   
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Brother John Hagee has been anointed by God to speak on His behalf. It is God's will that the non-believers of Alternet are blinded to the truth: you will never be saved. God doesn't love liberals, leftist sympathizers or Commies. To quote Brother Hagee, "it doesn't matter what you believe, the reality is still there." America's jihadist enemies, the Muslims, are savage animals bent on the destruction of our God fearing way of life. Sure you don't believe it. You project good intentions on everyone except our President and the troops. But reality will teach you when it is too late. Look for the Christians then - you will only find our earthly belongings abandoned as our naked bodies float to Heaven in Rapturous glory!

» RE: Great satire Posted by: ccbite
» Remember when... Posted by: famouspipeliner
» I'm making a t-shirt! Posted by: alterhead
» Man, that Cristo dude... Posted by: alterhead
» RE: Man, that Cristo dude... Posted by: aussidawg

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If all these 'fanatics' really wish to SEE their END!!!!!
Posted by: concerned Canadian on Aug 3, 2006 8:45 AM   
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If the American voting public ( and don't forget you still have a VOTE) wishes to end these fanatics' endgame dreams then vote them out, don't rant about it or feel sickened or anything. Use the ability to make decisions which God gave you to act logically. Then, when their power is gone and these individuals, Bush included, still wish to pursue their personal dreams of their privately conceived Armageddon then they can all sit down together and commit themselves to that end in a private manner speaking of their ill dreamt visions to whoever will listen. For sure God won't be. However, I think the bulk of these responses are correct in their take on these people i.e. they are not "true" believers or anything but of the sound of their own and each others' voices. So let them end their lives like the 'true' believers they claim to be and let them put their personal faith in this vision to the true test. Let them get to their endgame like the visionaries they claim to be. Why pay attention to them? Our task as people with minds is to figure out solutions, so let's solve the problems by the means we have at hand. Vote the illegitimate government out and as for the tv time ranters, don't tune into the channels of these hypocrites. Listen, instead, to the heartbeat of daily life. And don't worry about the fact that suicide, should these self confessed believers of the 'end' be men enough to purse their own end, is against the law. These types have not worried about the legitimacy of laws before so let them go to their dreamland as they lived their lives. At least this way they are being true to something and the rest of us who are pursuing life don't have to listen to them.


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All of this is contingent on the bible being a work of fact......
Posted by: DCostello on Aug 3, 2006 9:01 AM   
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.....as opposed to the fiction and myth that it is.

The Christ myth is just that, a myth. There is no historical proof that Christ ever existed outside the Bible. It's a myth just like those of Zeus, Mithra, and all the others. Aside from the claim that Christ was a real person, nothing in the Christ myth is even original. Large portions of the story have been lifted from the Mithra myth, some quite literally like the quote about drinking my blood and eating my body. That line, almost verbatum, was around for 400 years BEFORE the Christ myth.

The Christ myth, the Armageddon myth, the Great Flood myth, and many of the other myths contained in the Bible existed long before the christen god ever took pen to paper. To think that somehow the Christian myths are true is, well, naive is a term that comes to mind.

» jes cristo... Posted by: alterhead
» In Defense of DCostello... Posted by: aussidawg
» Listen bud Posted by: famouspipeliner

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I could not understand what happened in Germany
Posted by: ciccio on Aug 3, 2006 9:14 AM   
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I had family in Germany after the war, visited there often, had
many German friends and none could ever give my a sane reason for Hitler. Everything pointed to his mania, how could
the people let him get into power. I just did not get it.
Watching the States for the last couple of years, I ask the same questions. Can no one see these idiots are preaching a demented theology, has no one ever learned that a people cannot be conquered in their own land, be it 100 or a thousand
years, they will rise again.

Finaly, thanks to the insight I gained in the last few years, I can understand the rise of Hitler. It is not that he had the bulk
of the support, it is just that his supporters were loudest. The
quiet, sane and sensible ones stayed at home and mulled about the idiots shouting in the streets. Nobody gave a damn
about homosexuals, they were there, they have always been
there and they will always be there. Just ignored them. All of a sudden it was the most heinous of crimes, the one that sapped the vitality of the nation, that demeaned all of German manhood and it had to be eradicated. The Poles have
been the punching bag of Europe for 400 years, all of a sudden they were a threat to the peace and security of the country and drastic action had to be taken .

Does any of this strike a familiar chord?


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Religeous Insanity
Posted by: freerain on Aug 3, 2006 9:15 AM   
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As most people BELIEVE that Christianity is the seat of Western MORALITY it is actually the most IMMORAL plan for ALL HUMANITY that was ever put to print.

As for Salvation, what is it that anyone needs salvation for? If you are to believe in salvation, then you are to believe that you are imperfect in your nature, a corruption of Creation, in that you blaspheme the Creator Omnipotent who created you. Don't mistake me, my nature is not corrupt, not one bit, and I don't need salvation--the blood of another being put to death for my offense against the State, temporal or Divine, (Human Sacrifice). I don't need to take a sacrament (the flesh and blood of a human, ie, cannibalism) for the infusion of the Divine into my body.

I can't implore folks enough to read G. James Stewart's Immorality of Christianity which can be downloaded for FREE. Stewart wrote this book before G. W. Bush ran for office and it put forth the psychology of the insanity of Christianity and it's effect on the world in our times. Sadly, too much of it has been validated.

Christian's NEED to bring about Armageddon. We, the sane body of Humanity, do not need to let them have it. All races, creeds, cultures, nations need to step back from the brink of self-destruction manipulated upon the stage of The Living Earth by the diseased minds of a lustful Ring of Powerful lovers of death and destruction to prove the existence of their God and Savior Jesus. Proof is not Faith.

Freerain

» RE: eligeous Insanity Posted by: DCostello
» luvin u Posted by: caru

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Do you want a Civil War?
Posted by: shangrilalad on Aug 3, 2006 9:18 AM   
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Authoritarians have taken over our country through rigged elections and intimidation and by default because of Democratic cowardice. Our Democratic leaders have been too cowardly to put up serious resistance to the "Decider's" relentless and increasing efforts to seize more power. Political solutions are impossible for those who have no political power, and their chances of ever getting any political power are narrowed even more when those in POWER control the voting machines.

So what are we going to do if the Authoritarians steal another election?

Surrender or Fight?

For those who choose surrender, fine. Start looking for a place out of the line of fire.

For those who choose to fight, let's ask the Authoritarians: " Do you want a Civil War?"

» RE: Do you want a Civil War? Posted by: concerned Canadian

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Is it just me,
Posted by: harris on Aug 3, 2006 9:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or are all the comments for this article slanted to the right?

Just kidding, but why are they all italicized?

» RE: Is it just me, Posted by: Ktflake
» While you were sleeping last night Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: Is it just me, Posted by: AlienSlave

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If all these Christians want to die so badly.....
Posted by: DCostello on Aug 3, 2006 9:55 AM   
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.....why don't the just kill themselves and save the rest of us the big mess?


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Mark Twain - The War Prayer
Posted by: DCostello on Aug 3, 2006 10:22 AM   
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Mark Twain wrote a wonderful short story called The War Prayer. I'd suggest looking it up and reading it. The prayer offered by the central character is as follows. Sounds a lot like the Christian right today.


"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.


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I have a dream
Posted by: Lloyd Drako on Aug 3, 2006 10:45 AM   
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that one day Christ returns to earth. Yes, it's manifestly Him: He comes in riding on the clouds, visible to all mankind as He descends in glory, He walks and talks among us, healing the sick and feeding the hungry, He turns wine into water and then walks on it, He has the nail wounds and all.

He exhorts us to love one another and says a lot of other quotably uplifting stuff, and we see it all, some of us first-hand, others on CNN and Fox. No one doubts, everyone believes, from the fiercest ayatollahs to the rankest Eurosecularists.

Then He goes away, telling us we're going to be on our own again for a while. Worth it just to see the look of stupefaction on everyone's face.

» RE: I have a dream Posted by: AlienSlave
» RE: I have a dream Posted by: 1984NOW!!!

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There are no "End Times"
Posted by: ClintEastwood on Aug 3, 2006 11:13 AM   
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There are no "End Times," only the end of an Age. Most religions, including Christianity, are based upon astrology. Jesus is a personification of the Sun in the Age of Pisces. Jesus is the light of the world. He is the bright morning star. There are references to the "end of the Age" mentioned in the Bible. These are not referencing "End Times." They are in reference to the end of the Age of Pisces. Jesus' sign was the fish, after all. Can you guess what the sign of Pisces is? I'll give you a hint. It swims.

» Are you really Dirty Harry? Posted by: mstenger
» RE: Are you really Dirty Harry? Posted by: ClintEastwood
» RE: There are no "End Times" Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: There are no "End Times" Posted by: ClintEastwood

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Christian Fundies no differant than Al-Qaeda
Posted by: yellow on Aug 3, 2006 11:30 AM   
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There are no endtimes! All violence is created by man! Only man can stop it. Tell me how the endtimers are any different than a suicide bomber who expects a harem of 70 virgins in heavan as a reward! The world has truely gone mad! We are all suffering the bitter transition from the liberal Keynsean welfare state capitalism to global neo-liberal capitalism sans social safety net and trade union protection for workers! Religion breaks up the nation-state and reverses the process of nation building which was based on a large and vibrant middle class. Now world income is concentrating and Keysean liberal society is no more. Workers and progressives must find a new basis of struggle and agenda setting to defend themselves from the religio-capitalist onslaught! If religion is to play a new positive role for the poor it must be of the liberation-theology variety!


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Some more similarities to WWI
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Aug 3, 2006 12:16 PM   
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As an above post pointed out, political warmongers have always tried to whip up religious fervor and use it to start wars for their own personal benefit.

Please watch this video, and buy the DVD when it comes out
Rob Newman on the History of Oil
(http://www.robnewman.com/news.html)

Not much has changed since WWI - the secret British-American contracts for sharing the Mideast Oil were signed well before the war started, while the politicos of the day claimed they were only interested in peace and justice - and the media of the day certainly wasn't going to discuss the geopolitical strategic need to control MidEast oil supplies.

The modern versions are the US-Vichy Iraq production sharing agreements (secret contracts) under which oil is being shipped out of Iraq for the benefit of Cheney and Rice's old companies. These clever criminals use the religious right to whip up the fervor while filling their pockets with as much loot as possible - this tactic is as hold as recorded history! From the Egyptian god-kings right up to the present day, political rulers have always tried to exploit religion for their personal benefit.

» RE: Some more similarities to WWI Posted by: ClintEastwood

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No More Italics
Posted by: lonpine on Aug 3, 2006 12:34 PM   
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» RE: No More Italics Posted by: lonpine

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did you know
Posted by: rwa on Aug 3, 2006 12:48 PM   
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DID YOU KNOW...
MonaBaker.com



August 2, 2006



Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel?



Did you now that cars owned by Palestinians are colour coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?


Did you know Palestinians are not allowed to move from one city, say Gaza to Bethleham, to another without first getting a 'visa' from Israel?


Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is given to about 400 Jewish settlers, while 15% must be divided among Hebron's 120,000 Palestinians?


Did you know that Israel routinely confiscates Palestinian bank accounts, businesses and land and refuses to pay compensation to those who suffer confiscation?


Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of over 80 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?


Did you know that it was not until 1988 that Israelis were barred from running 'Jews Only' job ads?


Did you know that Sharon (the 'elected' leader of a democratic society) was held responsible for the massacre of more than 2750 Palestinians in the refugee camps of Sabra and Chatila? The UN qualified the massacre by Sharon as GENOCIDE.


Did you know that Sharon's commando unit in 1953 razed the Palestinian village of Qibya killing all its citizens and bombed all the houses, mosques and schools?


Did you know that Israel's settlement-building on Palestinian land increased considerably since the signing of the Oslo agreement?


Did you know that settlement building of Jewish only homes under Barak doubled compared to settlement building under Netanyahu?


Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?


Did you know that between 1967 and early 2002 Israel expropriated some 79% of the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Estimated figures published by Amnesty International in 1999 show the following:



Year Land Confiscated in the West Bank
1984 42%
1991 60%
1998 74%


Did you know that since between 1967 and early 2002 Israel demolished or sealed over 8500 homes, of which 2500 were in East Jerusalem alone? Houses are demolished as punitive measure or under the pretext of 'lack of building permit' - permits are rarely granted.


Did you know that the Ha'aertz Israeli paper estimated in 1998 (31 July) that a population of 5800 Jewish settlers in Hebron consumed 547 liters of water a day each? By contrast, a population of 119,230 Palestinians in the same area consumed or had access to no more than 58 litres per day each.


Did you know that since 1967, (and of course not counting the atrocities committed since March 2002) over 600,000 Palestinians have been jailed in Israeli jails and over 200 have died while in Israeli jails? During the first year of the second intifada alone, Israel arrested over 1900 Palestinians, of which 600 were children under 16.

Did you know that Israel uses torture routinely in jails (only against non-Jews of course) despite the Israeli High Court outlawing it?

» RE: did you know Posted by: babs
» RE: did you know Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: did you know Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: did you know - amen brother Posted by: DCostello
» RE: did you know Posted by: bullwinkle6969

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Fucked
Posted by: Glennk1949 on Aug 3, 2006 12:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Were all fucked if these are the nut jobs running the country.

» RE: Fucked Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: Fucked Posted by: famouspipeliner

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I AM A CHRISTIAN. I DO NOT READ IN THE BIBLE WHERE
Posted by: SamFox on Aug 3, 2006 12:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
where it says Christ's followers are to help bring about Amageddon or the end of the world. That is NOT our JOB! Our 'job' is to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ, be salt & light in what scripture says is a lost & darkend world systym, spiritual Babylon. Our focus is to be primaraly on battling demonic & satanic princapalaties & powers in the spirit realm using SPIRITUAL weapons, but NOT BOMBS! While we recognize that these P & Ps sometimes work THROUGH individuals or groups of people, we are not called to kill them, blow them up or any such thing. That is God's province ALONE! If He does that it should be independant from Christians 'helping Him out' or 'lending Him a hand'. He is capable of taking care of the deivl & his minons all by Himself. We are to pray for our enimies & resist evil, not kill those who channel it.

IF what the author says is true & not a mis-representation, at this point to me it's a BIG IF!, I decry & protest ANY activity by any Christian to help bring the Lord back by starting some world war or any other kind.

Christian authority concernig end times 'warfare' is limited to the spirtual realm. We have no 'orders from above' to destroy any thing physical (especially other people) in that regard. We are allowed to pray, protest what the Bible says is evil, vote & so on. We are not allowed to kill.

IF- IF- what the artticle says is true, those men may them selves be agents of anti-Christ who stir things up so Christ & His Gospel can be further maligned & marginalized. I believe GWB is one of those.

Please folks, realize, NOT ALL Christians want to 'help' Jesus come back that way. He is quite capable of deciding the time He returns for Himself. I want to help Him come back by helping spread His Gospel of salvation & healing from sin into the earth. THAT is our job. That is what He said must happen prior to His return. He said NOTHING about Christians starting a war to bring about Armageddon!

Remember, some of us out here are NOT enamored with Mr. Bush. Repub & Dem Presidents & Congresses have BOTH left the borders open & allowed industry & jobs to leave the USA. THIS SELLOUT STRTED MANY YEARS AGO. IT IS NOT A NEW DEVELOPMENT. I touched on that in other posts on other headings on AlterNet.

It was prophasied by Christ Himself that "many will come in My Name..." as CIPOs (Christians In Profession Only). If you know the Bible you can better sort them out.

SamFox

» Actually... Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Actually... Posted by: DCostello
» Youre not a Christian. Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» BY LOVE Posted by: caru
» RE: Youre not a Christian. Posted by: MatthewSavage

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HYPOCRACY BY ANY OTHER NAME
Posted by: Gtrpicker on Aug 3, 2006 12:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would love to be a fly on the wall when Bush finally gets his wish to meet Jesus. Jesus will look at him and say, "You did what in my name?" And then the fire and brimstone will be spectacular.
The supposed right to life family vaules types are not only doing everything that Jesus said not to do, they are also huge cowards. How else to explain the fact that they all want to go to heaven, but none of them ever want to die. They just want someone else to die.


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Let Hagee, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and all their followers lead the charge into battle
Posted by: stevepasek on Aug 3, 2006 1:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...and the resultant slaughter, which may not be end times for the planet, but certainly will be for the NeoCon / Evangelical alliance in this country, as all those votes will be coming back in pine boxes.

I think it's about time that the people calling for war step up and fight it. And everyone should be calling in to Bill OReilly and anyone else calling for war and ask them why they haven't signed up to fight...I think that should get them all to STFU.

Since most of the NeoCon leaders like to quote the "founding fathers" perhaps we should point out that those same patriots ALL fought in every conflict that they elected to engage in, rather than sending the poor to do their dirty work.


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Hagee does not represent all Christians......
Posted by: picket on Aug 3, 2006 1:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
although many that post here are not able to make distinctions. Those that appear rabidly anti-faith, if given the authority, would be as bad as the religious right, only located at the far left.
Our Founding Fathers wanted separation of church and state for good reason. The right scares me but so do many of the anti faith people here at this site.
I learn so much here anyway, and love the discussion, and because millions of people of faith like me want the Neo Cons out of power, I will continue to participate in the political debate.


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NAPOLEAN SAID IT BEST
Posted by: ignition on Aug 3, 2006 1:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich!


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You are all sadly mistaken and will burn
Posted by: doctorsquared on Aug 3, 2006 2:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if you do not follow the will of the Almight Flying Spaghetti Monster! Have you been touched by His Noodly Appendage yet?


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What Happened to Rapture?
Posted by: Sparks56 on Aug 3, 2006 3:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The world will never end. It's going to become a Garden of Eden, and Christ is going to rule it."

Jeez, what happened to rapture? I thought after Armeggedon the righteous were going to get yanked out of their clothes and rise naked and pure to live with God in heaven while we non-believers writhed in agony on a burning, scorched earth. I was so looking forward to it. Oh well.
If the idiots who actually believe all this dribble are not put in their place after the next election, with numbers that overwhelm Ohio-type electoral shenanigans, we can start to compose the epitaph of civilization.
I wonder what will be next.

» RE: What Happened to Rapture? Posted by: victorberry
» RE: What Happened to Rapture? Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle
» RE: What Happened to Rapture? Posted by: Aussie Kim

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I caught this dude hagee stealing cable TV about 20 years ago
Posted by: rebel_pig on Aug 3, 2006 3:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He had and still has a church in a ritzy suburb of San Antonio. He had a single outlet cable TV that was having problems. So he calls up the cable tv company, who sends me out. Turns out the problem was caused by hagee's homemade signal splitting connection.


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What if these bozos end the world and Godot doesn't show?
Posted by: tanstaafl28 on Aug 3, 2006 5:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It would suck if they threw the whole end of the world thingie and the "Big Man" was a no-show.


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Religion is hooey. There is no proof of the existance of God.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Aug 3, 2006 5:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, religion keeps the ignorant and poor in line; otherwise, they may rush the gates of the ruling elite and rich to take what is rightfully everyones property.

As we are seeing today, the "Ape Children of Abramham" (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) have the world on the brink of destruction. This state is good for business, as long as it does not prove to be a miscalculation.

» Hell is... Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: Hell is... Posted by: ignition

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DON'T MOCK THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Jesse Cristo on Aug 3, 2006 5:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet is EXACTLY WRONG to mock the spiritual gifts which Pastor Hagee uses according to God's will. This man can speak in tongues, cast out demons, and utter Prophecy. In fact, your hatred of Brother Hagee is implicitly anti-Semitic. Atheist leftists are always eager to align themselves with Hitler if it means they can exercise their grudge against Israel for abandoning socialism. Zionism is God's instrument to bring the Jews back into the fold; Brother Hagee supports Israel to that end.

» BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» question Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: question Posted by: Jesse Cristo
» RE: question Posted by: aussidawg

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What do other intelligent beings think?
Posted by: douglashoyt on Aug 3, 2006 5:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll bet "space aliens" get a hoot from observing the irrational ignorance on this planet.

They may even bet on the date of our self inflicted destruction.


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New Words for New Age
Posted by: cognitorex on Aug 3, 2006 5:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From Bush et al we get....- WAR-MAGEDDON
and for climate policy, voila....- WARM-AGEDDON


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Getting worried
Posted by: Melvin on Aug 3, 2006 5:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
AND ; POOF; we have global warming!
All it will take is "ONE" of these effing crazies to push the first button! the first nuke & it's over. True Global warming?


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MacBeth and Armageddon
Posted by: jcutler9 on Aug 3, 2006 6:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you remember the tragedy of Macbeth--he heard the prophecy of the three witches that he would become King of Scotland. Not content to accept that the prophecy would be fulfilled in its own time, he decided to hasten it by killing the current king. We know how all that ended. But his hubris affected only a few lives.

The people who believe in Armageddon, not content to let it fall in God's own time, decide to take action to hasten it, presuming to know exactly what course God wants to follow to make it happen. And presuming to know when, even though Jesus himself said, "No man knows the hour of my coming." And presuming to know who He would save. Their own righteous selves of course. Their hubris carries with it the seeds of the destruction of our world. It will be the apocalypse all right, but not at God's decree.

The horror these people devise is beyond imagining. How is it that they have not been branded heretics for daring to presume to know God's will?


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lowest form of reasoning
Posted by: robmikejas on Aug 3, 2006 6:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Beleif if the lowest form of reasoning, just below opinion. The scientific way of deductive reasoning creates truth in it's most valuable form. Religious standards a re based on belief and so...It;s off to war we go!!


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THE REAL ANTI-CHRIST IS ...
Posted by: victorberry on Aug 3, 2006 7:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real anti-Christ is not the European Union nor is it a person. The real anti-Christ is either 1) organized religion or 2) unregulated capitalism. Since I can't decide which it is, I'll let others choose. Note: Since our country has 'em both in spades, I guess a third choice for the anti-Christ would be the good ol' US of A.


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I DIDN'T KNOW BUT I'M LEARNING MORE ALL THE TIME
Posted by: victorberry on Aug 3, 2006 7:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't forget to mention the representative Democracy in Israel. The Palestinians make up about 20% of the total population. The Knesset has 120 members, so there should be about 24 Palestinian representatives, right? Wrong! There is only one Paestinian/Arab member!

Remember the Supreme Court ruling which upheld the right of the New London, CT, city government to use their power of eminent domain to sell off a viable neighborhood to a commerical business developer? Remember how angry most Americans were about it, even though the displaced residents received some compensation? Just imagine how the Palestinians must feel after 50 years of property confiscation without compensation! After a couple of decades of talking and getting nowhere, wouldn't you like to take up arms against your oppressor? The right wing governments of Israel have only themselves to blame for all this violence being perpetrated against them.


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Do-It-Yourself Impeachment
Posted by: Jodin on Aug 3, 2006 9:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Impeach Bush yourself! This is much more than just a petition.

There's a little known and rarely used clause of the in the rules for the House of Representatives which sets forth the various ways in which a president can be impeached. Only the House Judiciary Committee puts together the Articles of Impeachment, but before that happens, someone has to initiate the process.

That's where we come in. In addition to the State-by-State method, one of the ways to get impeachment going is for individual citizens like you and me to submit a memorial. ImpeachforPeace.org has created a new memorial based on one which was successful in impeaching a federal official in the past. You can find it on their website as a PDF.

You can initiate the impeachment process yourself by downloading the memorial, filling in the relevant information in the blanks (your name, state, etc.), and sending it in.

http://ImpeachForPeace.org/ImpeachNow.html

More information on the precedent for submitting an impeachment
memorial, and the House Rules on this procedure, can also be found at
the above address.

If you have any doubts that Bush has committed crimes warranting
impeachment, read this page: http://ImpeachForPeace.org/evidence/

If you're concerned that impeachment might not be the best strategy
at this point, read the bottom of this page: http://ImpeachForPeace.org

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace."
Bush, June 18, 2002

"War is Peace."
Big Brother in George Orwell's 1984


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As if!
Posted by: stargazer88 on Aug 4, 2006 7:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God will bring about the end times on his own schedule.

For Rev. Hagee and his mob to think they can force God's hand is hubris at best and blasphemy at worst.

I wonder if he's pondered this outcome: worldwide nuclear winter without the end of the world.


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Is God in the Abramoff scandal?
Posted by: lamar on Aug 4, 2006 9:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Shouldn't God be doing the lobbying in person?


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Lobbying????
Posted by: Reader11722 on Aug 4, 2006 1:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are fast-tracking to Armageddon. As Israel bombs her neighbors, the US clamps down on freedoms at home by illegally wire-tapping phones, stealing private lands, banning books like "America Deceived" by E.A. Blayre III, and starting 2 illegal wars. Soon, the US will invade Iran (or Syria), touching off Amrmageddon in the Middle East. Add in another false-flag attack on US soil (like 9/11) and the masses will beg for the 'safety' of One World Gov't. Then we'll have Armageddon as the public revolts. Alex Jones, "The answer to 1984 is 1776"
Last link (before Google Books caves and drops the title):
America Deceived - Book


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now thas' sum gooood churchin'
Posted by: zombi on Aug 4, 2006 3:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
wow. & i thought i was crazy. so he's goin' off of Ezekiel & Jeremiah eh...? well then, i hope he's made all the proper temple sacrifices & avoided things like pork, shellfish & planting two crops in one plot...'cause if he hasn't...

i really like it when politicians & military personel use the term "shock & awe". it's even better when religious "leaders" use the term. you know, it's categorized as the first step in cult brainwashing. seriously. in all the many steps involved w/ brainwashing, "shock & awe", those exact words, is the first technique used.

so, Jesus isn't going to ask to ordain pedophile priests & bishops, he's just going to do it? i'm not quite sure i got that one. perhaps a freudian slip on the "Evangelists" part?

one world government, one currency, one religion? well, when the private banks that make our money & determine it's value, make & determine the value of, i don't know, say, Russian or EU money, does this count as one currency? how about when they fund the armed forces of us & every major enemy we've had for the last 90 years? does that count as one government? how about 3 religions locked in a constant "struggle" (but still funded by the same people) that all come from one religious source? does that count as one religion? no, i guess not, because a blond haired, blue eyed jebus (not to be confused w/ Jesus) hasn't shown up on a white horse yet.

oh well. who knows really, i guess technically, according to that book of Revelations thingy, no one. but isn't it interesting to see that most of the far right, x-tian (not to be confused w/ Christian) flock haven't been so addled by thoughts of impending doom that they've stopped focusing on all those little things, like, say, money...or...their SUVs...or...money...or...secular politics...or...money...or their big, cushy, air conditioned suburban homes...or...money...or...other peoples oil...

i guess i got a far different version of the Garden of Eden than they did (maybe i didn't get "The Memo") HELP...SAVE ME WHITE JEBUS!!!

» and one more thing... Posted by: zombi

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What about rebuilding the Temple where the dome of the rock sits?
Posted by: Somedaysoon on Aug 4, 2006 6:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These people pick and choose the parts of the bible to serve their purpose. Generally, it is to instill fear among the sheep, and control of the flock. And if they make big money doing it they conveniently omit Jesus' admonishes on wealth. They are no more christians than they are free thinkers.


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what about his son?
Posted by: earthgarden on Aug 4, 2006 10:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Hagee is so sure attacking Iran is right, then let him show his commitment by sending first his son and daughter.

» RE: what about his son? Posted by: concerned Canadian

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OH, THIS MUST BE CHURCH. I WAS LOOKING FOR SCHOOL.
Posted by: LMNOP on Aug 5, 2006 2:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, excuse me. I must be lost. I was looking for Alternet when I ran into church services here by mistake.

Can anyone tell me where I find people discussing the *political* treatment of religion (among other things). I keep finding these "amen corners" for all the believers to try to convince the rest of us that don't care that Christianity is not as corrupt as Christians seem to be.

They want to talk about dogma and irrational beliefs, about how theirs are better than Pat Robertson’s. And they quote the Bible as if it was considered an authoritative source of anything other than somebody's fantastic reverie.

I can hardly think of anything more meaningless and less worth reading than the reasons why one form of religion is better than somebody else's. I'll tell you what: the Christian who can go his entire life without ever talking about religion where it is unwelcome is my kind of Christian. In fact, if I even know that you go to church or which one you think is the one true faith, you've talked about it way too much for my tastes.

I've said this before, and I believe that it remains true today. You cannot have an intelligent conversation about religion without it degenerating into sermons, and I refuse to be preached to by anyone who believes one of the religions. And as soon as you begin preaching like so many have here on this page, the conversation becomes as unwelcome as AIDS and as worthless as a discussion of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

I have made it appoint to respect the religious as long as they respect my secular space and my wish NEVER to be preached to by somebody who is guessing about an unseen reality of ghosts and spirits and has forgotten that fact. But that truce has been violated again by the "faithful" who just CANNOT STOP THEMSELVES FROM PREACHING TO THE UNINTERESTED. That stuff is about as welcome as finding out that the dinner that you were invited to was really an attempt to convert you into becoming an Amway sales zombie.

But that didn't happen...again. So I am expected to sit by and let others blather on to me about why their beliefs are right, yet I should also remain considerate and thoughtful of their feelings and beliefs by not expressing my equally certain belief that they are full of crap and please keep it to themselves.

So now, I've got to be the bad guy because I am unwilling to play the game where the beliefs of the religious are treated with respect but my beliefs can be disagreed with and called foolish and disastrous. Do you know how tired some of us get of hearing that crap and playing that game by those rules?

I believe that if you bring Jesus up for discussion in a mixed group, you are obliged to hear what the nonbeliever thinks about the wisdom of your choices, too.

I'll drop it here because I really do not want to offend the religious. But I am continually left with no choice but to either let them preach while I remain silent, or object out loud and be equated with Satan, to respect their beliefs and sensitivities as they trample over mine. That's when the truce breaks down, and I stop caring about who I offend.


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bullwinkle6969
Posted by: bullwinkle6969 on Aug 5, 2006 4:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hope as you floating off to heaven you leave one of those big screen T V's behind. I sure could use one. Hell I might get lucky and your clothes will fit too!!!

» Funny story to go with that Posted by: medbear

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Armageddon imagined
Posted by: bookwoman on Aug 5, 2006 5:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having not had their dreams and hopes realized with a Rapture in 2000, these members of the Radical Right (I will not bless them with the designation of Christians) are trying to bring on a homemade version. There have been other movements developed around the End of the World. There was such a situation in 1824 when hundreds of Americans purchased "Rapture Robes" for the trip. Needless to say the only people who benefited were the makers of the Rapture Robes.

To the best of my knowedge, the Bible does not say "And, then a group of priests will come forth and generate the end of time". I think that's supposed to be God's job.

If any of our leaders listen to these members of the clergy, I think that should be looked upon as treason and a danger to the citizens of this country which screams for impeachment.

As for Pat Robertson, I think the person who is detailed to make sure he takes his meds needs to be replaced.

» Rapture robes Posted by: medbear

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Re: This Must Be Church....No Sermon....
Posted by: picket on Aug 5, 2006 9:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think what makes the discussion relevant is that Hagee & Co are meeting with our "so called" political leaders in Washington. It is important for Christians who disagree with the Hagee heresy to speak out against this cult.......but then the discussion here pits faith people against atheists or agnostics.
The put downs like burn in hell or "noodles in the sky" serve no useful purpose. Do we agree on just ONE goal? BushCo out of power?
Even if the discussion about end times theology was limited to "so called" Christians there would be no total agreement and they would be calling names in less than five minutes.

Atheists and Christians can be on the same side politically. If you do not believe this, Rove is winning the game, and we all are losers!


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It never occurs to these fools
Posted by: susannunes on Aug 5, 2006 4:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that it is entirely possible, even probable, that the Rapture will NEVER occur because the Book of Revelation, like the rest of the Bible, was NEVER intended to be taken literally.

It's one thing for foolish people to subscribe to such nonsense, but it is another to try and drag everybody else along with them by influe