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Readers Write: The Growing Threat of Right-Wing Christians

By Onnesha Roychoudhuri, AlterNet. Posted July 31, 2006.


Does faith have a role in politics? AlterNet readers react to an article about right-wing Christians -- and end up questioning the legitimacy of religion itself.
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Readers Write: The Growing Threat of Right-Wing Christians

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In 1963, Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. stood on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, faced hundreds of thousands of Americans, and spoke of faith in his dream of equality:

With this faith, we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith, we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith, we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.
It is undeniable that the effectiveness of King's words, his ability to create and unite an audience, was rooted in his faith. Indeed, the "religious left" has been instrumental in the civil rights and anti-war movements, in uniting people for a cause. Yet, to speak of faith today, in the era of the second Bush administration, so often works to divide Americans -- particularly among the left.

AlterNet's recent interview with Michelle Goldberg goes a long way toward explaining why. Goldberg, the author of "Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism," spoke about the handful of politicians and religious figures who are leading the Christian Nationalist movement. Under the banner of "religious freedom," the Bush administration is creating policies that espouse exclusive privileges for Christian organizations. While Goldberg discussed this phenomenon as it exists in the shift in faith-based program hiring, it is evident throughout this administration's policies.

With over 300 comments, Goldberg's interview struck a nerve with AlterNet readers. Kym525, a gnostic Christian, noted the importance of reclaiming the meaning of religious freedom: "When we say religious freedom, we don't mean just freedom and respect for certain beliefs, but for ALL of them, even the ones we may not practice ourselves."

It's an important distinction, on par with the acknowledgment that, when we talk about a handful of fundamentalists claiming Christianity as their banner, we are not talking about Christianity at large. Kym525 continues,
Yes, it can be tough to read about the rise of fanatical so-called Christianity, but just because you don't like the message doesn't make it any less valid ... as long as we in the 'silent liberal Christian majority' say and more importantly DO nothing, those who totally misrepresent our beliefs will continue to divide and conquer.
While hundreds of comments were posted to the interview, only a fraction directly related to the substance of the text -- the effects of the rise of Christian Nationalism. Rather, they rehashed a difficult dialogue that occurs nearly every time AlterNet publishes an article about religion: the legitimacy of religion and faith itself.

MatthewSavage wrote: "If you go by the comment section of many of the articles on AlterNet, the many in the secular left have a burning contempt for all people of all religions. I have seen comments denigrating anybody who claims any religion insane, childish, stupid, moronic, ignorant sheep, you name it."

Jesse agreed, stating, "Just a look at the comments section after [Sen. Barack] Obama's speech or [AlterNet staff writer Jan] Frel's piece a few weeks back shows that there is hostility out there. And it is kind of unnerving -- a lot of people have the old Arthur C. Clarke view that religion is a kind of insanity or superstition that will disappear if everybody is rational."

Polly, a self-described atheist stated, "Believing in a god or gods does not mean a lack of intelligence," but then goes on to say, "People look for ways to understand the world and to find meaning in their lives ... I think if the general population had more access to a scientific education there would be less religious belief in this country." YogiBear addressed the notion that there is a negative correlation between education and faith, and offered this qualifier: "I'll agree if by 'less religious belief,' you mean 'greater spiritual beliefs.'"

Reader comments flirted with the notion of two forms of faith -- one that takes the place of knowledge, and one that is inspired by knowledge. The function of faith varies by what an individual seeks.

Michelle Goldberg, in the original transcript of the AlterNet interview, addressed whether she thought congregants of some of the larger megachurches were aware of the connections their churches had with conservative Republicans. Goldberg said, "I don't think people experience these organizations as primarily political. The political side is just the kind of general ambiance, but I would suspect they experience them primarily as personal, social and spiritual. They come because there's some kind of deep existential need, not because they want to support the Republican Party."

AlterNet reader Jesse addressed the appeal of more fervent branches of Christianity, noting that "the Left has never offered the same sense of comfort that the right does ... I myself know that when I go to a Unitarian church, for example, it sometimes just feels so wishy-washy and as rational (and unreligious) as I am, I understand the pull, the power, of evangelism. Especially in a world that is complicated and scary."

It is this uncertainty -- and fear in the face of uncertainty-- that Christian fundamentalists have so effectively addressed. Goldberg gives this analysis of reconstructionists:
You can think of Christian reconstructionists like the neocons: They're a very small group of people, but they've created an intellectual system that is very influential. It is based on Rush Dooney's idea of a biblical exegesis that can provide the answer to every public or private question -- very specific manuals for government and community life.
The faith that the Bush administration has exploited is that which grows from fear. From the extensive commentary following Goldberg's interview, it's clear that AlterNet readers want to continue exploring the role of faith in politics. As King's speech over four decades ago suggests, some form of faith, be it secular or religious, will be at the core of our ability to effect change and banish the fear and fundamentalism that currently thrive in our country.
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Onnesha Roychoudhuri is a former assistant editor of AlterNet.

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Muslims worldwide wage war against civilization - AlterNet focuses on threat from Christians???
[Report this comment]
Posted by: thinkprogress on Jul 31, 2006 12:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Muslims around the world are waging a war on civilization and Alternet is focusing on the threat of Christians???

Did I read that right?

The terrorists must be do, do, do, do, do... lovin it!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» you missed the point Posted by: rue
» RE: you missed the point Posted by: dhardisty
» Civilized countries? Posted by: Lizmv
» Damn good points Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Damn good points Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: you missed the point Posted by: LMNOP
» You call the US CIVILIZED? Posted by: nwellington
» RE: you missed the point Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: you missed the point Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: you missed the point Posted by: aussidawg
» Overgeneralized and wrong Posted by: brunowe
» Ignore this poster please Posted by: russianblue1
» Ann Coulter Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Ann Coulter Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Ann Coulter Posted by: Ratskii
» Fallacy Posted by: russianblue1
Religions are equally toxic
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Moonray on Jul 31, 2006 2:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christianity. Islam. Buddhism. Hinduism. Name your poison.

All these belief systems are toxic in their own way because they replace reason with fantasy, superstition and dogma. And when humans stop reasoning, stop communicating openly with each other, violence and other horrors are not far behind.

The problem is not which religion is better or worse than the others. It's religion itself.

The United Nations should launch a global effort to help humankind overcome religion and replace superstition with reason-based compassion. That's our only hope and, with nuclear weapons proliferating, there's no time to lose.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Buddhism is NOT a religion Posted by: Dan Metcalf
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: aussidawg
» Science is your religion... Posted by: catnapping
» RE: Science is your religion... Posted by: Dan Metcalf
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: jehovahsfitness
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: TrilateralRegression
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: greymoon
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: jehovahsfitness
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: cephalis
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: TrilateralRegression
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: Jamboree
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: cottontail
» RE: eligions are equally toxic Posted by: Jamboree
Religion is a drug that turns people into genocidal maniacs.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: wli on Jul 31, 2006 3:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, et al are all indoctrination systems to undermine reason and by so doing open the path to demonizing the "other." The central crime of religion is ultimately not in the doctrinal systems (though with Dominionism et al they can get rather horrific) but in their undermining of reason itself.

Once reason is destroyed by religion, no atrocity against the "other" falls within the purview of the reason which would expose it to judgment by the standards of universal human values. Once religion is professed, everything is permitted, particularly as aggression against the "other" (though not exclusively; Calvinistic doctrine exempts those reputedly preordained as saved from all moral regulation). Only by rejecting religion can morality find a universal basis, universal enforcement no matter the identity of the victim, and universal application.

Christianity actually has an instructive element of its dogma, that of the antichrist. This dogma teaches that the ultimate evil isn't embodied in he who commits a particular act, but rather, hypocrisy and false claims to holiness. Antichrists (they are not unique) are false prophets, false holy men, workers of false miracles, those who obtain positions of leadership and lead by deception, and those who lead their "flocks" into evil by deception, particularly with respect to conning them into committing evil acts.

This notion of an "antichrist" describes particularly well all those who cloak themselves in piety, who demand fealty on the basis of professed religious belief so as to acquire official sanction for immoral acts as state terrorism or theft by deception. You would be well-served to recall this notion of an "antichrist" when observing Pat Robertson and other televangelists, or those who call for war against atheists (Communists) and Muslims.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» not all religions Posted by: Samantha Vimes
Germans blamed the Jew, Bushies blame the Muslim
[Report this comment]
Posted by: owlbear1 on Jul 31, 2006 4:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both groups run screaming from mirrors...


What is truly pathetic is the Germans had the Treaty of Versailles driving their country in to bankruptcy. Wheelbarrows full of money to buy a loaf of bread.

Bushies have used ONE trauma (9/11) as if they were actually inside the towers during the attack. Terrified little bigots squealing to be protected.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Xenophobia Posted by: benzene
Welfare for Churches
[Report this comment]
Posted by: lamar on Jul 31, 2006 4:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps it is time to remove the tax exempt status of our religious institutions. Afterall, if you wanna play in the politics game, you should pay your way. No more welfare for churches.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Welfare for Churches Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Welfare for Churches Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Welfare for Churches Posted by: TrilateralRegression
» RE: Welfare for Churches Posted by: mywalea
» RE: Welfare for Churches Posted by: Talon
Religion gives The Creator a bad name.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: williameon on Jul 31, 2006 4:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Same Crusade,
Same Time.
Same Channel!

No one loves the world.

If you do,
Why destroy it?

The Bored again,
Pie in the Sky
Wait till you die
Faux-hristians
Are lost.
Imposters: at the Throne.

Heaven is here.
Where you make it.
Now and forever.
Everyone is enlightened.
Put your best foot forward.
Then:
Step into infinity.

Mother earth will shake,
Rattle
And
Roll
Till:
Harmony is achieved.
Peace.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Islam is the only true religion
[Report this comment]
Posted by: marklar on Jul 31, 2006 5:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every religion has its extremes. But if I had to pick one I'd pick Islam. Ma'a Salaam.

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» the solution! Posted by: repo
» RE: the solution! Posted by: surfreality
» RE: Islam is the only true religion Posted by: TrilateralRegression
fear
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 31, 2006 5:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only thing we have to fear in the Bushies is faith in fear itself.

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» RE: fear Posted by: arthur
FAITH
[Report this comment]
Posted by: the islander on Jul 31, 2006 5:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Faith is within. Faith is trusting in the process.

Belief is negative emotion blasted at you by those without any knowledge of the spirit of the earth, which is about interaction at every level.

Faith is connecting with the life on earth, universe and God. You don't have to be told about faith. Faith is seeing God in the miracle of life manifesting all around you. Faith is love and joy and inner peace. Faith is inherent in being.It arises from within.

You have to be told what to believe and it's something somewhere else in place and will happen in some other time. It's always somebody else's story.You have to believe in somebody else to 'believe'.

Faith arises from within.In the end, your life is your story. Create your own story.

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» RE: FAITH Posted by: LMNOP
Can anyone hear that
[Report this comment]
Posted by: digitalspy on Jul 31, 2006 5:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IT's nearly as loud as a Megaphone!

The above is another example of why those that oppose Israel's behaviour need to really take the gloves off. It's funny how lately every discussion seems to become a springboard into the disparagement of all things muslim. Anyone else noticed it seems to be a lot more apparent not just here but everywhere just lately?

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» RE: Can anyone hear that Posted by: RON_KING
get the church OUT of the state
[Report this comment]
Posted by: wawa on Jul 31, 2006 5:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Soon after I had published the pamphlet "Common Sense" [on Feb. 14, 1776] in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion... The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."-Tom Paine

On with THAT revolution...


Jesus prayed that we would all be ONE.
Christ was NEVER a Christian.
Christ was a social justice radical revolutionary Palestinian Jewish Road Warrior who challenged the temple authorities job secutity and the status quo of Rome; the occupying force at that time.
THAT was why he was crucified-Rome crucified trouble makers all the time!

NOT until Emporer Constantine legitamized Christianity and St. Augustine corrupted the gospel with the heretical "Just War Theory" did any Christian ever even serve in the military!
It was understood to follow Christ one must be NONVIOLENT.
100 years after Constantine, Rome required ALL soldiers to be baptized!

Fundamentalists thrive on FEAR and divisevness and the neo-con, neo-christian zionists first infiltrated the White House during the Regan years.

When politicians get in bed with religion, We the People get screwed.

The "Left Behind" theology is a 200 year old MISINTERPRETATION/MISUNDERSTANDING/ of scripture that cherry picks disparate passages which promotes a 'chosen-one' mentality,
it reeks of anti-semitism
and is an abomination to thinking Christians.

If the media would STOP giving the right wingers a voice and report what PROGRESSIVE Christians are about, it would make a huge difference.

Public service message from Progressive Christians from the
.org
WeAreWideAwake

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» RE: get the church OUT of the state Posted by: TrilateralRegression
Where did these people come from?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: disenfranchised on Jul 31, 2006 6:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I remember high school and college being heavily populated by science-phobic people. Ask your Dr. what was their undergraduate major and you may find that the 'scientist' treating you was a liberal arts major who avoided the hard science courseloads opting for higher grades. It is these people who have found answers for 'why' things happen to and around them from unreliable but easy sources. Instead of studying the difficult science that explains the phyical laws of energy-matter relationships and biology that makes us who and what we are, they likely sought the much easier answers offered by ancient metaphorical and therefore, flexible texts. Worse, too many have allowed others, learned by their own estimation, to exlain the world using and abusing those revered texts. So, I have to come to the conclusion that the Americans currently in power are the same intellectually lazy, oh, and greedy people I knew in school. Their enemy is the same real and rigorous science that makes them rich, and drives all modern economies. They control, or try to control the funding for science and health care on 'faith-based' grounds. With as much respect as I can muster, I submit that 'faith-based' is simply intellectually lazy and Americans are fools for allowing this tyrany of the intellectually lazy to continue.

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» Strange Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: Strange Posted by: Conservasaurus
Absolutism vs self-actualization
[Report this comment]
Posted by: daw13 on Jul 31, 2006 6:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Erich Fromm's book, Escape From Freedom does a great job of telling us what role religion mainly plays in the world today. It encourages us to seek to be non-thinking members of a mob rather than a community of self-actualized, thinking, feeling individuals. Doesn't have to be this way. Some of the Gnostic gospels, rejected by Rome as unsupportive of oligarchy, viewed Jesus and God as being inside of us rather than standing outside of us to be worshipped. Even pre-Xtian Judaism had moved away from individualism in favor of group-think.

Whatever potential some form of "religion" may or may not have for human enrichment, few cases can be found for its having much value in that regard over the last few hundred years. On the other hand, religion is one hell-of-a useful political organizing mechanism where the last thing Power wants is a democratic citizenry.

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» RE: Absolutism vs self-actualization Posted by: TrilateralRegression
ljsullivan
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ljsullivan1166@earthlink.net on Jul 31, 2006 6:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The discussion on the topic of religion continues to be so stupifyingly shallow and banal as to inspire pity -- and exasperation.


Stupid, crazy, fantasy, superstitious, responsible for all the evil in the world, lunatic, the province of those who are ignorant and/or who don't recognize the supremacy of reason and blah blah blah ...


As a person who has spent 59 of her 71 years exploring religion, the Bible, mythology, folklore, philosophy, the human psyche, the wonders of science, the mysteries of nature, and has come to a deep and profound appreciation of human spirituality, I can tell you that those who dismiss religion as any of the adjectives above are truly the ignorant ones.


You really ought not to pass judgment on anything about which you clearly know nothing. You ought to try reading some of the recent books like 'Why God Won't Go Away' -- there is very good scientific evidence that we are 'hard-wired' to search for meaning in life, to try to understand in some depth our very personal experiences that point toward profound mysteries out of the reach of our normal, everyday reason-powered egos.


It is a serious mistake to equate religion with Church and the evils committed by churches, whether they are sins of omission or commission. Churches that remain silent in the face of crimes committed by the Government are guilty of aiding and abetting the crimes. Churches that cheer the crimes of Government are guilty of aiding and abetting the crimes. They are all hypocrites when they equate 'sin' with the petty foibles of individuals and ignore the horrific sins of governments and corporations which destroy lives and pulverize the planet with their hideous activities.


In other words, there is a distinction between the religious individual and the religious institution, just as there is a distinction between the patriotic individual and the political institution.


I now class myself as a generic, free-lance, postdenominational Christian minister. I am not associated with any religious institution at present and probably will not be for the foreseeable future unless/until I can find one with the guts to risk telling the truth out loud, like Jesus did, and take the consequences for doing so.


Until I can find one that repudiates the politicization of the Church, like the backroom deals with the biggest donors who make sure the preacher doesn't say anything on Sunday morning that particular donor doesn't want to hear; or like those churches who pressure their congregations to vote a certain way.


Until I can find one that makes a serious attempt to really teach and practice the love that Jesus taught and practiced.


Until I can find one that is the religion OF Jesus and not a false religion ABOUT Jesus.


Until I can find one with the intellectual honesty to preach what the best Biblical scholars have known for a century or maybe three, that the Bible is literally chock-full of obvious mistakes and self-contradictions and faulty translations; that it was written by mere human beings, not God, with all their limitations; that it was transcribed by other human beings who made errors both innocently and deliberately; and it was edited by Fathers of the Church who had axes to grind and motives of their own to accrue power and obtain total control over their membership and to become very wealthy.


And yet, properly understood, as the best Bible scholars do understand it, a wealth of wisdom is still to be found in it -- at levels never dreamed of by the fundamentalists.

TO BE CONTINUED

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» RE: ljsullivan Posted by: tap17x
» RE: ljsullivan Posted by: ljsullivan1166@earthlink.net
ljsullivan
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ljsullivan1166@earthlink.net on Jul 31, 2006 6:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
CONTINUED

Idols abound: the worship of Reason is no more reasonable than the worship of the Bible, because Reason is just something we 'believe in', too, isn't it? Yes, it is a useful tool of the mind for getting through our daily lives, and we really couldn't survive without it, but -- do you really think that's all there is? Pathetic.


Reason can't account for the most important things we experience in life -- like intelligence; love; humor; compassion; grief. It can't tell us the 'Why?' of things. It tells us many other things -- 'What?' 'Where?' 'How?' -- but the 'Why?' is in the province of religion and philosophy.


It can't account for the Trust that is authentic faith. 'Faith' that is merely 'belief' based on something someone else has told you to believe, like fantastic doctrines or the inerrancy of the Bible, is not really faith. That is blind belief; there is no more reason to believe it because someone tells you it is true than to believe the moon is green cheese. And I know that from experience. That kind of false 'faith' can crash in a second when one has an experience that shatters one's world-view.


True faith is TRUST -- and it comes from life experiences, not from 'beliefs'. True religion is based on actual personal experiences so profound that mere words are not enough to express them; and so they are expressed through creativity, through art and music and poetry and dance and drama and liturgy and architecture and sculpture and mythology -- all those expressions that have come together sometimes as 'religion'. Which, in the beginning, before it becomes encased in concrete, is very good.


But when it becomes institutionalized and no longer permits growth, no longer permits the Divine Spirit to move freely and creatively -- and you can always tell when that happens, because NOTHING CHANGES ANY MORE, people whine about changing the hymnal or the prayer book or the liturgy or whatever, all of which is genuinely irrelevant to true religion -- then it is certifiably DEAD.


Then it's time for a funeral, to bury it, and to go where LIFE is. And that will be where things are dancing and vibrating and singing and growing and making joyful noises and celebrating Life. That will be where awe-inspiring discoveries are being made, and where creativity is blooming, and where science is turning everyone's world-views upside-down with new truth about the universe -- and where minds are changing and growing, changing and growing, all the time. If that isn't happening, if science seems at odds with religion, then you are in the Dead Zone. Go where the Life is, and there is no War between Truth and Truth. The same Divine Mystery made it all.


Blessings to you all.

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» Sounds a lot like gnosis... Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Sounds a lot like gnosis... Posted by: ljsullivan1166@earthlink.net
» RE: ljsullivan Posted by: jehovahsfitness
» RE: ljsullivan Posted by: ljsullivan1166@earthlink.net
» RE: ljsullivan Posted by: alfesq
» RE: ljsullivan Posted by: ljsullivan1166@earthlink.net
Once again
[Report this comment]
Posted by: kenhymes on Jul 31, 2006 6:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Once again, the left shows why it has lost every major struggle for the last thirty years, even though most americans share its concerns and policy positions. You criticize the right (and rightly so) for being against pluralism, for being bullies who refuse to respect diversity and are untrue to the liberties and civil rights imperfectly drawn in the Constitution.

But as soon as the topic of religion comes up, the run of secular leftists don't even draw breath before pissing all over deeply held beliefs of the majority of people in the world: that this is not a chemical accident, that there is a moral purpose to our existence, that we are accountable to more than the laws of physics.

Don't believe it? Fine. But when you not only pretend that yours is the common sense, normal position - when human history demonstrates quite the reverse - but proceed to call anyone who disagrees with your cosmology a dangerous, mentally impaired, genocidal lunatic... well, that's such a pluralistic, welcoming embrace to the rest of us, isn't it? Gee, wonder why African Americans, the most church going group (with many exceptions of course) in the nation, doesn't dive right in and help the left win these battles. Wonder why the right keeps succeeding, over and over again, in portraying you as hostile to religion? Because you ARE.

It may be comfortable to be right and rational and above everyone else... but it sure isn't doing the country any good when you have the tact and the grace of a fourteen year old.

What is your "final" solution to us Christians, then? Ban our churches? Kill us? What? Your venomous comments only confirm the worst among us that we are embattled, and preclude the possibility of bridge building.

I know all too well that religious belief has been used as a pretext for evil action. But so has science (eugenics? thalidomide? nuclear power? the vast tortures and imprisonment of people with disabilities? All based in science, not religion) and so has Marxism (Stalin? Mao? Shining Path? Can't get much more anti-religious than those folks). If people have evil in their hearts, and lust for power, they will use what ever is available to achieve their ends. Being "rational" is not a placebo for the world's ills.

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» When did I call myself Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: Once again Posted by: harris
» RE: Once again Posted by: kenhymes
» RE: Once again Posted by: harris
» RE: Once again Posted by: babs
» RE: Once again Posted by: harris
Religion is not incompatible with science or reason
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Posted by: HeroesAll on Jul 31, 2006 6:42 AM   
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I'll mention again that I'm saying this from an academic viewpoint, since I'm not religious and haven't been ever since I was about 5. But bear with me.

Many people here are saying that religion and reason don't mix: you're either religious or rational. I don't think that's true. I've known, or known of, people who are both religious (in the god-bothering sense) and yet quite rational. Many work in the sciences: some of them have odd little quirks that allow them to reconcile some of their odder beliefs, but most see no contradiction between their religious beliefs and the physical universe. They tend to think about it and work out a theory that works for them.

There's also the historical evidence that science and reason often sprang from religious societies. I won't mention examples for fear of starting a flame war, but there are many examples from around the world and around the religions.

So religion and reason are not mutually exclusive. Fundamentalism and reason, however, are mutually exclusive. Fundamentalism demands the suspension of critical faculties in order to swallow whole the patchwork documents that form the basis of many religions.

Anyone who considers the Christian bible the literal word of God, for example, has a few kangaroos loose in the top paddock. The thing was patched together in 322 (I think) at the Council of Nicea, at which time a bunch of blokes got together and decided which bits to put in and which bits to leave out. Many of the bits weren't even written until decades after the events in question, so they're clearly a bit dodgy.

But don't get me started on that topic...

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ALL Religions can be perverted, but the perversion of Christianity is the worst
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Posted by: xbj on Jul 31, 2006 7:05 AM   
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All religions can be perverted, but the perversion of Christianity into Christianism is the worst.

For a group of people supposedly following the life example of a Man who INVENTED Pacifism, who never fought anyone with any sort of violence whatsoever, but fought only by speaking the Truth; for these supposed followers of this man sanctioning "Holy" "War" against entire other religions, sactioning and even blessing the wholesale theft of land from another people and the fascist horrific violent actions of that new government in keeping and "protecting" that stolen land and people that NEVER BELONGED THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE,

IS UNFORGIVEABLE.

Any so-called Christian that doesn't "get" that this is a perfect textbook example of the greatest sin, the sin that cannot be forgiven, the sin of "blaspheming the Holy Spirit", SURELY deserves their fate.

Any so-called Christian that doesn't "get" that, if Jesus Christ were alive on earth, here, today, He'd be decrying the very existence of the nation of Israel on stolen land, and the death of every baby, indeed, would be raging against the church of Satan masquerading as the "Christian" "Right", and their "endless" "war" against "terrorism", the very terrorism they created out of nothing, SURELY deserves their fate.

Any so-called Christian that supports war over peace, death of "the enemy" over life, intolerance over tolerance, "just" war, "collateral" damage, and "figting the evildoers" instead of LOVING YOUR ENEMY AS JESUS SAID WAS THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT OF ALL, DESERVES THEIR FATE.

And Brothers and Sisters, the whirlwind, it's-a-comin'.

Wide is the road that leads to destruction... who knew Jesus was talking ABOUT HIS OWN when HE said THOSE WORDS?

You know, NOW. Perhaps seconds before it's too late.

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» Christianists stole the Americas. Posted by: catnapping
All religious are insane
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jul 31, 2006 7:10 AM   
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The problem is that god is unsustainable in logic and incompatible with reason. We as human beings are incapable of comprehending god. We cannot understand what he tells us, if he speaks to us at all. We cannot read his words. But there's always someone who thinks they can. lol. As far as I'm concerned, if god really wanted to talk to us, we'd damn well know it when he did. If there is a god he obviously doesn't want to influence our development. I believe this is the only logical conclusion one can make. Yet there is no popular religion where that logic is the central tenet. Curious isn't it? Why do so many people worship a god they cannot comprehend? They may as well worship their toilet bowl.

Somehow we reached a point where we have a bunch of crazy religious whackos in control of nuclear arsenals. From a purely objective viewpoint, the christians seem to be the worst, since they not only possess but also used the most nuclear weapons! The religious political leaders in the US claim to be christians, but they worship Moloch and they break just about every single one of the ten commandments. That's what really bothers me about these right wing christians.... their leaders are so blantantly NOT good christians. Not even close. And yet the followers cannot see it. Well if they cannot see something as obvious as that, then how can they see anything? Take any issue of significance today, and it is obvious that indeed they cannot see at all.

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» RE: All religious are insane Posted by: jehovahsfitness
» RE: All religious are insane Posted by: willymack
» RE: All religious are insane Posted by: symcokid
» RE: All religious are insane Posted by: ljsullivan1166@earthlink.net
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jul 31, 2006 7:15 AM   
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Not knowing much about religion, but suspecting that the issue has been well-debated over the years, I decided to ask an expert (Ghandi, in this case): Here are a few of his comments:

A religion that takes no account of practical affairs and does not help to solve them is no religion.

One's own religion is after all a matter between oneself and one's Maker and no one else's.

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Religion is more than life. Remember that his own religion is the truest to every man even if it stands low in the scales of philosophical comparison.

Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is.

The essence of all religions is one. Only their approaches are different.

The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.

Moral authority is never retained by any attempt to hold on to it. It comes without seeking and is retained without effort.

Non-cooperation with evil is as much a duty as is cooperation with good.

Are creeds such simple things like the clothes which a man can change at will and put on at will? Creeds are such for which people live for ages and ages.

Confession of errors is like a broom which sweeps away the dirt and leaves the surface brighter and clearer. I feel stronger for confession.

Faith... must be enforced by reason... when faith becomes blind it dies.

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.

Freedom is never dear at any price. It is the breath of life. What would a man not pay for living?

God sometimes does try to the uttermost those whom he wishes to bless.

I do not want to foresee the future. I am concerned with taking care of the present. God has given me no control over the moment following.

I claim that human mind or human society is not divided into watertight compartments called social, political and religious. All act and react upon one another

No culture can live if it attempts to be exclusive.

I know, to banish anger altogether from one's breast is a difficult task. It cannot be achieved through pure personal effort. It can be done only by God's grace.

There is nothing that wastes the body like worry, and one who has any faith in God should be ashamed to worry about anything whatsoever.

What do I think of Western civilization? I think it would be a very good idea.

To give pleasure to a single heart by a single act is better than a thousand heads bowing in prayer

I reject any religious doctrine that does not appeal to reason and is in conflict with morality

If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed suicide.

Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause

It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err.

But for my faith in God, I should have been a raving maniac.

Mohandas Gandhi

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» Ghandi will now mess with your head Posted by: thoughtcriminal
FUNDAMENTALISM of any sort is the problem
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Posted by: sanitysojourner on Jul 31, 2006 7:40 AM   
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Belief in a religion is not "the problem." Christianity is not "the problem" anymore than Judiasm, Islam, Rastafarianism, Buddhism (and some would argue that Buddhism is not a religion at all) are "the problem."

"The problem" is fundamentalism of any sort. That includes political approaches, such as Nationalism, where fundamental beliefs in the literal absolutism of "your favorite rigid system here" dictate rules of behavior.

We have fallen prey to those who would like us to fall into the distraction of religious wars. Folks, that means all of us are being driven by those who exploit religion and its fundamentalist followers, for their own purposes.

Is george weenie bush religious? buckshot cheney? Wolfy (paulie or Blitzen)? Rummy? Condosleazy? Good heavens! They're profiteeers! They're milking and duping a constituency, a relatively small and normally fringe one at that, for their own gain. And we've fallen into the trap of arguing about the existence of god, the importance and/or fallibility of religion and blasting each other for our respective views. The distraction ploy prevails again.

If we instead focus on fundamentalist (e.g., literal, absolutist) approaches as "the enemy," in the name of anything (god, country), our discussions would be more productive -- AND we'd do a better job of defining a strategy.

Condemning religion will get us nowhere except further alienation from those who would otherwise join up with more progressive approaches.

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PZZP
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Posted by: pzzp on Jul 31, 2006 7:46 AM   
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To even begin to understand faith, it is crucial to have the capacity to distinguish between a religion (spirituality), and those who have appointed themselves to organize it (dogmatic establishmentarianism), whether for altruistic or selfish motives. But, pragmatically and realistically speaking, the human majority consists of followers, regardless of what or who it is they select to follow and regardless of their reasons to do so. It is human nature. We are kidding ourselves if we think that everyone can be self-actualized, rational and secure within themselves. Further, the waters are muddied by the existence of organizations masquerading as religions, but actually organized for one or another social purpose.

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Man's Religion...?
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Posted by: shyguy709 on Jul 31, 2006 7:57 AM   
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Ever since man created religion, the world has not been safe. I did not even think Christ used the word religion, so where did this word come from?

God created a relationship with man and man created religion as a narcotic drug; well done.

Now watch as we sweep ourselves into an orgy of mass extinction

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Alleged 'War on Christians"
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Posted by: bookpedlar on Jul 31, 2006 8:46 AM   
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Reverend Rick Scarborough (a Baptist) and “Vision America” insist that the “War on Christians” is real. On March 27-28 of this year, Rev. Scarborough hosted a Vision America conference, “The War on Christians and the Values Voter in 2006.” Speakers at the conference included Phyllis Schlafly, Gary Bauer, Alan Keyes, Sen. Sam Brownback, and born-again Christian Tom DeLay. See the complete conference program agenda at: www.visionamerica.us/site/PageServer?pagename=confagenda.

Rev. Scarborough and his fellow pastors believe that an organized “cultural elite” of sectarian liberals is bound and determined to drive Christianity from the public square. Such a movement does not exist. When Rev. Scarborough and other “born-again” Christian leaders complain about a “War on Christians” by secular liberal elites, what they are really recognizing is that most Americans – many of whom are also Christians – reject their extreme interpretation of Christianity and reject their theocratic vision of establishing Christian rule in America.

What Rev. Scarborough and his cadre of “Patriot Pastors” really want to do is this. They want to bring back school prayer, teach creationism in our public schools, decide which books we can read, what plays and films we can see, and generally make our secular government more obedient to Christian tenets whether the vast majority of Americans agree or not. They want to ban sex education in schools, ban stem cell research, ban abortions, and ban homosexual marriages. They are aggressively trying to elect Christian conservatives to our school boards and our state and federal legislatures. In effect, they are trying to democratically elect a strict Christian theocracy that believes as they believe – and only as they believe – governments that govern according to their radically conservative Christian dictates.

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» RE: Alleged 'War on Christians" Posted by: cottontail
muslums are not the threat -- fundamentalism is
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Posted by: Elendil33 on Jul 31, 2006 8:47 AM   
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It's not Islam per se that is the cause of terrorism, it's fundamentalism - of any stripe - that is at the root of terrorism. It doesn't matter whether it's a terrorist attack against the World Trade Center, or against an abortion clinic, it's still terrorism fueled by fundamentalist religiosity.

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The perversion of religion
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Posted by: ArchiesBoy on Jul 31, 2006 8:55 AM   
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Religion, like so many creations of man, can do good or it can do evil. Obviously, right-wing Christian extremism is a perversion of Christianity's original intent which (like all religions) was one of man's first organized attempts at teaching how to be good and do good.

As a lifelong seeker, I've dabbled in a few flavors of Christianity, did a heavy investigation of Judaism and Buddhism, and was for some 20+ years deeply involved in a path of Hinduism. I see each religion as divided into two parts: 1. A fund of deep wisdom common to all religion and all mankind — the wisdom that comes from simple reason, deduction and common sense. That's the valuable part. 2. Then there are the various specific doctrines, which usually confute and contradict each other. That's where the trouble starts. If you accept one doctrine as true, then you have to reject the rest. There is never any quarrel over what's common sense: you want peace? Then co-operate. Be nice. Be helpful. Be loving. Appreciate differences. You want trouble? Then you say "It's eternal damnation for all but a few." And then someone else says, "You're full of it, it's karma and reincarnation!" Then someone else says, "You can't prove any of that!" Before you know it a holy war has begun over differences that are entirely beyond proof or disproof.

Mankind needs to finally outgrow religion, grow up and embrace hard science, co-operation and common sense. Bloody unlikely.

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» RE: The perversion of religion Posted by: jehovahsfitness
» RE: Hard science Posted by: kenhymes
Hierodule
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Posted by: Hierodule on Jul 31, 2006 9:19 AM   
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And another thing: Notice that Feeding the Hungry, Clothing the Naked, etc. costs money. Being anti-Gay is easy; it doesn't cost hypocritical, right-wing crazies a penny.
Gosh, I am so cynical.

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» RE: Hierodule Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Hierodule Posted by: robchapman
The Left needs to come to terms with this issue...
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Posted by: SufiLizard on Jul 31, 2006 9:52 AM   
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...if we have any hope of taking this country back.

The bottom line is that blaming all of Christianity for the sins of wing-nut branch is no more legitimate than blaming all of Islam for the evils of radical terrorists.

Or to put it into terms that may resonate more with liberal orthodoxy - it would be like claiming because so many black people are involved in crimes in this country there must be something inherantly criminal about black people.

It's all complete and utter nonsense!

There are good people in this world and there are bad people -- and at the extreme end of the bad side of the spectrum there are certain sociopathic people who will do anything to serve their own greed and lust for power. Unfortunately religion is an attractive tool for them to exploit to attain their goals.

A hammer can be used to build a house or to build a tank. A hammer isn't inherently bad just because some people choose to use it to build weapons of war. Some people are out there using it to build houses for the homeless.

Religion is no different. So let's get that through our thick, liberal skulls and move on to fixing the myriad problems facing the world right now.

(I won't hold my breath though;-)

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Fundamentally dangerous
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Posted by: surfreality on Jul 31, 2006 10:03 AM   
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I can not subscribe to a metaphysics with either jihad or armageddon in it's tenets.
Allow me to recommend Sam Harris "The End Of Faith" He makes some very interesting points, among them:
Fundamentalist monotheistic belief systems are maladaptive to the planet's survival.
Based on these belief systems, it is "logical" for college educated men to fly planes into buildings and for middle class white Americans to murder doctors who provide abortion services. In these days where WMDs are proliferating at an ever accelerating and alarming rate what people believe to be true is of concern to all sentient beings because if your belief system dictates death and destrution as a proper spiritual and dogmatic response to your issues than we need to challenge those belief systems as aggressively as possible.

[

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» RE: Fundamentally dangerous Posted by: yolanda
» RE: Fundamentally dangerous Posted by: surfreality
» RE: Fundamentally dangerous Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: Fundamentally dangerous Posted by: surfreality
» RE: Fundamentally dangerous Posted by: famouspipeliner
It Has A Place
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Jul 31, 2006 10:04 AM   
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Whatever your faith or lack of faith, it informs your opinions as to how people interact, conduct business and live in our world. Call it a philosophy or theology, it still is the very real underpinning of your morals and ethics unless you just give it lip service.

What you believe will affect who you vote for, what you are willing to sacrifice for the common good, what you value and what you are willing to work for. Claiming that personal beliefs do not influence one's politics is to be disingenuous or in denial.

My caveat would be that it should only be personal-- not corporate. Act in concert with other people with similar goals while respecting their beliefs. Religion belongs in the church, temple, mosque, and chapel-- not in city hall, the courtroom, the assembly or congress. I do not want my religion in my government and do not want the government in my faith. Theocracies have no place in democracy.

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The true "Axis of Evil".
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Posted by: neg_entropy on Jul 31, 2006 10:16 AM   
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I read comments like these with a growing sense of dismay. The coalition of American Christian-fundamentalism and Isreali ultra-conservatism is the true "Axis of Evil". Together, this "Coalition of Madness" is leading the nation to ruin and the world into chaos.

The media has been filled with the usual collection of neocons beating the drum for global war. Sadly, there are many who listen. The "Third World War" they hope for is nothing but the sickness of Rapture Junkies.

Anyone who knows the essentials of Protestant Theology knows that the "Rapture" is a lie. Why? It is not for man to know when the day of judgement will come. Anyone who claims otherwise commits blasphemy. It is a terrible tragedy that those who worship only Mammon and Ceasar have been so successful at deceiving the ignorant.

I pray that you will be given wisdom enough to see through the darkness of your blood lust.

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The Progressive Response to the Religious Right
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Posted by: donhbrown on Jul 31, 2006 10:18 AM   
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Your recent articles on the influence of the religious right on politics in the U.S. raises the fundamental question of the role of religion in our individual lives and in society. To address this issue I would like share with you the following observations for your consideration:
Science has demonstrated that we are all interconnected, physically, socially, economically and spiritually as one whole world of humanity living on one common homeland, the planet earth. The underlying driving force of our society – our economic, political, judicial and social/cultural systems is our most prevalent belief system – our human values. The most predominant ideology of the Western world in the 20th and 21st centuries has been materialism. Because of this, everything in our society has been subverted to support our morally and intellectually bankrupt capitalist economic system.
The religious right understands that by influencing and reinforcing people’s belief systems they can shape all the other aspects of our lives. Their source of authority is claimed to be Divine in origin and has as its basis fundamental moral truths of honesty, love and other moral virtues that touch the human spirit and give their whole message a sense of legitimacy.
Trying to oppose this through political activism or by offering soulless rationality as the alternative addresses the symptoms and not the source of people’s beliefs and does not touch our human spirit that lies deep within us. Attacking religion as the cause of our social, political and economic woes is as prejudicial as all the other prejudices that afflict our world and will only worsen the conflict.
So what is the answer? An objective look at religious history gives us an answer. The world’s major religions all began at different times in history revealed to different peoples by Divinely inspired Prophets. The Prophet-Founder of each religion (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc.) was opposed by the religious leaders of the day because He taught the same spiritual virtues but changed the social laws of the religion to suit that particular age of human development. In spite of incredible persecutions of the early believers of all religions, the religions grew and became significant influences in all aspects of societies throughout the world. Unfortunately due to human frailties they have also broken into many opposing sects, each claiming to have the only path to salvation.
The Creator's answer to this has been to renew religion with a new religion revealed through the next Prophet. This renewal happened again in the mid-nineteenth century with the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, the Prophet-Founder of the Bahá'í Faith. This Faith is spreading throughout the world renewing the spiritual truths that are found in all the world’s great religions and bringing social principles and teachings for this age of human evolution. This Faith’s fundamental doctrine is “the oneness of the entire human race” and its ultimate goal is universal peace for all humanity. It is both rational and spiritual, teaching the fundamental oneness of all religions and the harmony of science and religion. It provides the spiritual infusion and “Divine origin” legitimacy that is an answer to the conservative religious right. I encourage you and your readers to independently investigate the truth of this Faith and determine if It does address the causes of the ills facing our world.
Take care, have a great day, Don Brown

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Fundamentalist Hypocrisy
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Posted by: bettyn on Jul 31, 2006 10:20 AM   
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Growing up in the South, I got a ringside seat to observe the rise of Fundamentalist Christianity in that area. At that time (the late fifties and early sixties), fundamentalists would pick and choose Biblical texts that supported segregation. They drew thousands of uneducated and racist Southern whites to their churches with their messages of hatred toward African Americans, Jews, Catholics and other so-called minorities. Some of their preachers were actively involved in the KKK and like organizations.

Fundamentalist preachers, who, in those days, included the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson preached this message of hate and intolerance. Now, because it suits their purposes (making more money and getting more power in D.C.) they have "swept all this under the rug", siding with Israeli radicals (They believe they will bring on the "RAPTURE"and the "End of Days".), black evangelicals (They encourage African Americans to join their megachurches solely to get their money!) and anti-abortion Catholics on many issues. (Notice, however, they do NOT back the Catholic church in opposing capital punishment!)

This is hypocrisy at its worst IMHO! Falwell (who owns a large amount of property in Virginia, including a number of bars and nightclubs) and Robertson (whose father was an avid segregationist Congressman and Senator and whose son's (Pat's) wife was seven months pregnant when they married) are total liars and the worst kind of hypocrites. They belong in the same camp with Jimmy Swaggart, whose sexual escapades surpass anything Bill Clinton ever dreamed of in his life!

This isn't religion, it's good old fashioned American GREED! No wonder they are so close to this White House. It's all about "Show Me the Money" with this entire cabal.

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» RE: Fundamentalist Hypocrisy Posted by: aussidawg
BUT...
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Posted by: oregoncharles on Jul 31, 2006 10:39 AM   
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Personally, I agree with the rationalist criticisms of religion in general, BUT:

The Left's values are drawn mainly from the ethical teachings of Jesus. That makes the liberal churches, which take those teachings seriously, among our most important allies, if only for their numbers (and locally, at least, for their buildings, which make very convenient meeting places). When we trash religion or Christianity IN GENERAL we weaken that natural alliance. Rationalist arguments are fine, presented in a reasonable manner - for instance, as pitfalls for the religious. Modern Christians can handle that, and may well agree on where their dangers lie.

On the other hand, there is very good reason for the Left's distrust for Christianity: its history. Historically, the Fundamentalists are TYPICAL Christians; the chief difference is that so far they haven't the power to slaughter their enemies (burning at the stake, anyone?) It wasn't until the long process of Reformation and Enlightenment broke the power of the clergy that we got enlightened Christians and a partial end to the bloodshed and tyranny.


There is a simple answer to the first comment in this thread: Muslim fundamentalists have little power here and pose little threat to most of us. The worst they can do is impose occasional tragedies on us; bad as they are,, they pose no real threat to our society. CHRISTIAN fundamentalists, on the other hand, can and do. Hell, they're running the government. THAT is a threat!

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ALL extremism bad
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Posted by: Edward George on Jul 31, 2006 10:53 AM   
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Nature itself is imprecise and so is our natural language. (Any unaturally precise language is a game, just as chess is a game somewhat resembling kingdoms and wars.) Nature itself will reject any extremism by erecting another extremism to counteract it. Thus social stress and wars. Since there now seems to be no doubt that man has developed the physical capability to destroy all life on earth extremism is more dangerous than it has ever been. In other words, "Cool it! I would be a misfit in either heaven or hell."

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"Muslims" wage worldwide war? Ahem!!
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Posted by: Mycos on Jul 31, 2006 10:59 AM   
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Not Muslims....Muslim extremists... who are fighting Jewish extremists.... who are being aided in their extreme nationalist goals by Christian extremists who think their lot is tied up with the Zionists!
The rest of us just want some peace in a world gone crazy by the actions of all of these assholes *including* the people like you who can't see through the rhetoric of the political extremists in Washington who use the former groups to their own ends.

OPEN YOUR EYES!

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hmmm
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Posted by: bouyant on Jul 31, 2006 11:10 AM   
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These critiques of fundamentalism seem to have left out the common underlying theme, namely, the threat to a patriarchal worldview.

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» RE: hmmm Posted by: cmaukonen
» RE: hmmm Posted by: willymack
Christian Camp for Children as Young as Six
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Posted by: bookpedlar on Jul 31, 2006 11:20 AM   
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A new documentary, Jesus Camp, chronicles a North Dakota summer camp where kids as young as 6 are taught to become dedicated Christian soldiers in “God’s army.”

At the camp, children are asked: “How many of you want to be those who will give up your life for Jesus?” Little hands shoot up from every direction. They are told: “We have to break the power of the enemy over the government.”

At the camp, the children are gathered for their daily teaching. Suddenly, a camp counselor places a life-size cardboard cutout before the group. No, it’s not Jesus. It’s George Bush. Clapping erupts and Becky encourages them to “say hello to the President.” Becky claims that “President Bush has added credibility to being a Christian.”

The film takes us into the homes of the children, where we see them “pledge allegiance to the Christian flag” and play a video game called “Creation Adventure” that debunks evolution. A mother helps her children with homework and informs them that, “Global warming is not going to happen. Science doesn’t prove anything."

See more at: www.prospect.org/web/printfriendly-view.ww?id=11628

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For better or for worse
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Posted by: Subcommandante Nada on Jul 31, 2006 11:50 AM   
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The point of the article was not to say that religion is a bad thing. People can use it to give themselves hope, as a basis for conquering unjustice, as a way to instill the idea of morals into people. I myself do not believe in God but I also believe that I cannot make that choice for another person. It is exactly the same as the prochoice arguement. Religion provides people with something to rally behind but when it becomes religious nationalism and when they try to force others to conform to there belief structure it is no longer legitimate. Much like the bush admin., his drive to force a religious current through everything he does contributes greatly to his loss of legitimacy even though he would have done so without anyways. We need to stop trying to force one another to believe as we believe and start trying to change the ideas of people through words and actions of good.

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Most so-called "Christians" in America are not actual followers of Christ
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Posted by: pogo on Jul 31, 2006 11:50 AM   
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Speaking as one who is deeply spiritual but not religious, I would say that the fundamental mistake many of us make in talking and thinking about this issue is to believe the hype that America is a Christian country. The majority of professed "Christians" don't actually do the things that Jesus taught. Their real religion is quite obviously the worship of money and power (or, in Christian terms, Mammon, the demon of avarice, richness and injustice). These people never really heard the "good news" that we are all deathless spirit so they live in deep fear and mistrust of other people and the world around them. They don't "turn the other cheek" or support peace, instead they support fascist abominations like "first strike" and "preventive war". They don't treat the "least among you" as if each one was the Christ, instead they vote to cut any support for the poorest and most defenseless among us.

The secret religion of America could perhaps rightly be called Capitaligionism. Its trinity consists of The Almighty Dollar, The Holy Profit, and The Sacred Bottom Line.

Claiming to be Christians is just their cover story. Don't even buy into that myth. They wrap themselves in the flag of Christianity (and the flag of America) to conceal the fact that they are fearful, spiritually ignorant people whose only devotion is to their own ascendency in the worldly scheme of things. One of the best examples would have to be the 'good Christians' who own and run the major oil corporations (as well, of course, as the US government) who have sacrificed the well being and perhaps even the very lives of our grandchildren for the sake of their short term profits. (If you think I'm exaggerating that point, please google "global warming methane hydrates" and read some of the articles about positive feedback loops in sudden, catastrophic climate change and about the previous mass extinctions tied to planetary methane 'burps' brought on by only a few degrees of global warming.)

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It is frustrating here in the US of A but...
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Posted by: doctorsquared on Jul 31, 2006 11:53 AM   
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it doesn't look like these morons will gain any real footholds in western Europe anytime soon. Also, while flipping channels this AM while getting ready, I saw Benny Hinn bemoaning the fact that only 0.5% of Japan's population are christian; I assume this also counts Catholics and mainliners so the land of the rising sun has nothing to worry about in terms of these fundie fools attaining political power. It may become A Handmaid's Tale here in 'Murkah but the rest of the world won't stand for it, methinks.

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a choice of 17 saviours ready to forgive you - CALL NOW!
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Posted by: memetic on Jul 31, 2006 11:56 AM   
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CHRISHNA OF INDIA, CRUCIFIED 1200 B.C.
HINDOO SAKIA, CRUCIFIED 600 B.C.
THAMMUZ OF SYRIA CRUCIFIED, 1160 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF WITTOBA OF THE TELINGONESIC, 552 B.C.
IAO OF NEPAUL CRUCIFIED, 622 B.C.
HESUS OF THE CELTIC DRUIDS CRUCIFIED, 834 B.C.
QUEXALCOTE OF MEXICO CRUCIFIED, 587 B.C.
QUIRINUS OF ROME CRUCIFIED, 506 B.C.
AESCHYLUS) PROMETHEUS CRUCIFIED, 547 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF THULIS OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF INDRA OF TIBET, 725 B.C.
ALCESTOS OF EURIPIDES CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
ATYS OF PHRYGIA CRUCIFIED, 1170 B.C.
CRITE OF CHALDEA CRUCIFIED, 1200 B.C.
BALI OF ORISSA CRUCIFIED, 725 B.C.
MITHRA OF PERSIA CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
JESUS OF NAZARETH CRUCIFIED 33

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Liberal argument
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Posted by: daa4 on Jul 31, 2006 12:55 PM   
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I fully support "liberals" for attacking religions in the political sector because the growing Christian movement in this country is trying to influence their morality system into the gov't and its governing laws. This is not separation of Church and State. It is very frustrating to hear the Christain political side say liberals do not understand religion. When in fact the liberal argument is trying to keep any religion out of the government and not have a religion's way of life be forced as on Americans. People should have the freedom of their religion and leave people alone to pratice as they wish. Futhermore, what ticks me off is the political Christian movement influencing politicians so that one day I can live a life under their morals. If I wanted to live under their morals I would join that religion. Heck, one of the groups comes to my house every week trying to recruit me and I politely tell them I'm an atheiest. How come no one goes to their homes denouncng GOD? Because that would be absurb and insensitive!

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» RE: Liberal argument Posted by: aussidawg
How about Tolerance? So many churches but only one God.
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Posted by: Aimee on Jul 31, 2006 12:56 PM   
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"What is your "final" solution to us Christians, then?" How about Tolerance? Stop being bullies. You tolerate us and we will tolerate you.

All Christians are not the same. There are real Christians, tolerant ones and the fanactical, Rapture types. Let's all attend the church of our choice and keep politics government out of it. So many churches but only one God.

Now is the time for all humans to come the aid of all humans all over the world. End wars, invasions, torture, development, pollution.

Peace,
Aimee
Friday Harbor, WA

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Owlbear1 right on
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Posted by: Io on Jul 31, 2006 1:23 PM   
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Owlbear1's post (6th down from top) is right on. The central factor in any fundamentalist system is a perverse and incestuous narcissism stemming from a denial of reality.

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True Religion
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Posted by: robchapman on Jul 31, 2006 1:23 PM   
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I can only speak as a Christian, from a Christian's perspective.
St James, a disciple who knew Jesus personally, wrote in his epistle to the early Christian Church, "true religion is caring for widows and orphans," I have found that if one tends to that, all other questions about God and religion will receive their proper answers.

Robert Chapman
PACH12@TWCNY.rr.com

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» RE: True Religion Posted by: Io
» RE: True Religion Posted by: robchapman
Cynical attitudes
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Posted by: robchapman on Jul 31, 2006 2:19 PM   
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A cynical attitude about the religious right is no longer a luxury that politically conscious and morally sensitve people such as progressives can afford.

Many of the manifestations of concern expressed by the religious right stem from genuine, personal, and moral convictions.

For example, some people have real concerns about the morality of homosexuality and some just don't like it.

Such people cling to denominations that focus prominently on Paul's texts against homosexuality.

But these adherents will rightly point out that homosexuality is not the only message of modernity or secularism their church preaches against.

They put vast sums of money into their churches and are proud of them.

I know of one small church with fewer than 200 members which raises $ 300 to 350 thousand dollars a year to support the church its staff and their programs.

I don't about your circumstances, but in the county that church is in, that is real money.

Why do people put such significant amounts of money into their churches?

Like the rest of us, such people want to live good lives, have nice homes, raise their children to be good people and not feel defensive.

The rise of the religious right is the quest of a segment of our population to achieve these goals.

My personal beef with the religious right is that rather than conducting this strugle in the political arena or in the forum of ideas, they enlist God to their side and claim God's authority as the basis of their own prejudice.

I can't be cynical in dealing with them, they are too virtuous, too sincere and too committed.

Sometimes a resolution of an issue with them is just a matter of political muscle, but that is only an expedient as they are persistent.

We progressives must devise ways to include the positive attributes of faithfulness, loyalty, concern for others and respect for individual rights that the fundamentalist, pentecostal, evangelical and conservative chrstians who make up the religious right insist upon.

You can see from the large number of labels needed to embrace them all that they are a significant portion of the population and an increasing proportion of the well-organized, well-funded and responsive church attending segment of this country.

Their sense of outrage and their demand for fundamental changes in our public values is threatening the religious and secular compromise our ancestors made.

The compromise was that religious values would left out of public discourse and that public discourse would honor the underlying humanistic values compatible with religion.

This compromise has protected the independence of religious denominations and provided the basis of religious and philosophical freedom that non-religious people have in our country today.

The religious right today feels this compromise has introduced humanist values that are not compatible with religion, hence our values debate.

Secularists and humanists have the same right to freedom and to life that religious people do. Their values and aspirations should not be labelled categorically bad and outlawed by religious people no matter how strenuously they disagree with them.

We cannot coopt or marginalize the religious right.

It is time to accept them and to start working with them to solve our common problems.

We Americans cannot afford any longer to continue to stand across an ideological chasm shouting at each other. We progressives of all persuasions must move out and engage our fellow human beings in constructive dialog and constructive work.

Robert Chapman
Brootondale, New York

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get over it
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Posted by: LeDiablePlaisant on Jul 31, 2006 3:43 PM   
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SEPTEMBER, 1937

If you say: “I don’t understand Christianity, I want to live without consolation,” then you are narrow-minded and prejudiced. But if, living without consolation, you say: “I understand and admire the Christian position,” you are a shallow dilettante. I am beginning to grow out of being concerned by what people think.

-Albert Camus, from "Cahiers I"

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Why do we feel so compelled to walk on eggshells when publicly addressing ridiculous mythologies?
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Posted by: ebliso on Jul 31, 2006 4:15 PM   
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Religion is just mythology that is still in use. There's no way around that. So politically-speaking, I have no problem with what one chooses to believe or worship, but philosophically-speaking I have a HUGE problem with the very idea of religion . That means that I don't particularly care if you belive in elves and wood nymphs, but I would have a big problem with a political party being co-opted by elf-worshippers who would seek to change our nations laws to better reflect elf-worshipping fundamentalism. I would be very much against elf-worshippers who try to change the educational curriculum to better indoctrinate children into their elf-worshipping ranks. As much as some people whole-heartedly believe in ridiculous mythologies, the fanatacism behind a belief does not equal validity. And this goes to my philosophical issues with any and all religions. I am SO F-ing tired of having an actual philosophical discussion with religious-based people and having the entire conversation end with "Well....you can't prove there is no g-d". What kind of philosophy IS that? I don't really care if 99% of Americans espouse this point of view....it's patently absurd! And we should not feel embarrassed to say so! The onus of proof is on those who MAKE extraordinary claims, not those who DON'T. If your entire belief system can be whittled down to "Well...you can't prove I'm not right" then what you have is a very flimsy base on which to build a stable, sound philosophy of life. Maybe that's why there is so much effort put into indoctrinating and converting people to become Chrisitans . Perhaps it's also because the only way to reinforce a very flimsy belief system is to spread it to ohers in the hope of eventually not having anyone left to point out the silliness of your mythological belief.
So, to summarize, go ahead, believe any ridiculous , made-up thing you want, but keep it out of our government and out of our sciences. And don't be some jackass democrat telling me that I have to start acknowledging and validating the dangerous and toxic mythologies that are infesting our country and the globe . I won't drink the cool-aid (or eat the wafer and drink the wine) and I won't surrender my rationality to the forces of religion. Oh yeah, and Arthur Clarke is quite correct. We WILL be better human beings when religion has fallen into the dustbin of history. (Not pushed or drowned, but fallen...of it's own accord and the weight of its own absurdity.)

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Just the facts ma'am
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Posted by: jane funk on Jul 31, 2006 4:19 PM   
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Just the facts, for you of the “faith-based community.” I have spent most of my life as a non-God-fearing, observant and devout agnostic, more than willing to be tolerant, accepting, supportive and occasionally even envious of those who professed and acted on moderate religious beliefs. No more. As I have been forced to confront that position more and more critically over the past decade, considering the manifestations of faith I see in the world around me, the actions and inaction of the faithful, my attitude has slowly and inexorably changed. You of faith: I am now your enemy and you have wrought me. I am the enemy of the faith-based community and their fellow-traveller apologists for organized religion. I can no longer see faith but as participation in a pathological communal delusion of consciously choosing to believe in something for which there is insufficient rational evidence. Pathological, because from the evidence I see in the world, the delusion necessarily leads to tragic consequences. I will not rehash for you my grievances with religion – many are already listed in these comments and I am certain that you are familiar with most from other contexts. If you already choose to ignore them or rationalize them, I am extraordinarily unlikely to convince you. But know that the faithful have made me a “guerilla” in the conflict over religion. I am covertly but actively committed to defeating it, in any form and forum in which it appears. I have become, you have made me, intolerant of religion. You have made of me, an enemy.

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» RE: Just the facts ma'am Posted by: liberalibrarian
» You, Jane Posted by: famouspipeliner
The Problem Is Inherent in the Unchanging Dogma
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Posted by: CaliforniaWill on Jul 31, 2006 5:18 PM   
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While societies change -- albeit slowly usually -- religions rarely adapt to the changing times. When the dogmas don't alter, fanaticism and fear and extremism rule the roost, so to speak. The larger religions have been in place for millenia now with very little organic change, in fact, most appear to want to go retro in the misguided concept that "the good old days" were better. And particularly, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are still locked in a non-acceptance mode, despite the fact that the early repression of their followers could just as easily be "forgotten and forgiven."

Like any prejudice or bigotry, religious ones feed from the trough of "if we don't get them, they'll get us." In this day and age such beliefs are sophomoric when balanced against the "live and let live" mentality of rational human beings.

Dualistic dogma -- that is one position in public and another more privately -- creates confusion, i.e. more ignorance among the flocks. When, for example, a "Christian" says "love thy neighbor" that's one thing, but when they add the codicil "unless he or she is. . .(fill in the blank; gay, lesbian, black, asian, etc.) then you have a dichotomy which naturally breeds hatred. Change the dogma and you change the beliefs held by the flock (eventually).

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stanimal
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Posted by: drfun on Jul 31, 2006 6:08 PM   
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How many Bush supporting "Christians" would recognize Jesus if he were alive today?
Fundemental Christianity is one of the most intollerant religons in the world today, preaching hate and glorifying murder of innocents.
All religons have their fanatics, drowning in their mystical escapades!

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Dogmas of death
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Posted by: jreinhart1 on Jul 31, 2006 6:37 PM   
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Religions are created to explain things unknown and organize groups. Faiths are usually part of a bribery or coersion scheme but are usually good for the group in general. A faith is dead when it turns into dogma that is essentially brainwashing. The dogma that people usually have is dependent upon where one is born. Dogmas are usually hierarchical in structure and are ways of moving masses for profit and power. The Abrahamic faiths are all mostly dogmas with the extreme ends being the most barbaric which have little in common with the original faith. Most of the recent splinter groups of the Abrahamic faiths are the worst of the worst. God is always a blood lusting, merciless, vile creature of deception that is invoked to gather wealth and power for those that sit on the top of their respective groups. The idea that a nation state has the preferred love of god is the greatest lie in all faiths and quite idiotic and small minded when one thinks about all of creation.

All faiths are based around the area of which they are found which is inevitably the center of the universe. It is amazing that the world still revolves around the lives of the individual in most minds (a complete lack of empathy). Not much is more dangerous than a single minded person percieves themself to be absolutely right and knows how every single person on earth should act as well as perceive that they are themselves, choosen by God to do It's work. These false prophets are everywhere and few preach and live any form of peace.

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Loons
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Posted by: ilikearundhati on Jul 31, 2006 8:23 PM   
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What, exactly, makes that tiny strip of land, at the other end of the Mediterranean, belong to Jewish people?

They believe that God gave it to them. What else would make a group of people be willing to move there, raise their children and live their lives amid suicide bombers and the rocket’s red glare, so to speak. People can do some very irrational things when they are religiously insane.

This is the 21st freakin’ Century, people. Does anyone really believe that God is a magnanimous real estate broker?

It really is all just too damn much. We are supposed to believe in seperation of Church and State. Why the hell, then, do we spend billions on supporting a religious state of any kind, and don’t tell me it is because Israel is a Democracy. Since when has Geroge Bush shown any real interest in Democracy, other than as a buzzword.

Allowing religious fundamentalists to call the shots on the world stage is alot like giving the car keys to a three year old and saying, have fun? Maybe a better metaphore would be giving the asylum keys to the inmates.

Any government leader, who runs around the world, telling other world leaders that God told him whom to bomb, should be locked up, for their own good and everyone elee’s, because that is psychotic talk.

Try it out for yourself, go to a couple of your neighbors and tell them that God is telling you to bomb the guys three streets over. You will have cops at you door and be safely eating Jell-O in a locked ward before you can say Praise Thee.

But, we do nothing about our own doofus doing just that. How the hell can the christian right holler about how they are persecuted when they aren’t in a big old Macadamia Ranch? Because they, and all the other literalist, fundamentalist whackjobs in the world are batshit crazy and no one will be honest enough to say it.

You can get on TV and say any goddamned nutty thing you want to, as long as you are religious and speaking as a religious person.

I think it is high time it stopped. These knotheads need to be confronted with the harm they are doing this country with their batshit crazy beliefs and their hateful behavior.

I can only hope that rational Muslims and Jews will do the same with their loons.

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Religion sans spirituality is a hoax
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Posted by: herb on Jul 31, 2006 8:26 PM   
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The fundamental divide between merely "religious" and "spiritual" approaches to faith is one of moral and intellectual honesty.

While it is possible to be "religious" and spiritual, it is impossible to be dishonest and spiritual. Religion without a true, honest spirituality is merely ideology. Worship of a text, whether it is the Bible or Das Capital, is just idolatry.

Lying of any sort, especially being willing to act inconsistently with the basic tenets of a professed belief system, as fundamentalist (of any persuasion) do when they place the book before God, is antithetical to true spirituality. At that point religion becomes a mere hustle or, at best, an ugly addiction (seeking a sense of superiority gained from membership in a group is an intensely addicting behavior).

Bad religion, just like bad money, tends to drive out good religion. Then we end up with these horrible pseudo conflicts with people willing to kill each other essentially because their lie is better than the other persons. Big enders vs. little enders in Swift's metaphor.

It is a choice, honesty or spiritual death. Spiritual death leads in turn to physical death by interpersonal violence. And here we are.

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When politics and religion meet-BAM
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Posted by: Jamboree on Jul 31, 2006 8:38 PM   
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Any belief system standing alone is usually harmless. Mix in politics and the manuvering for power begins. If you get enough peope to follow your religion you can acquire legitimacy and power that will give you the opportunity to transform organizations that you can't as an individual.

If that religion is based on precepts (rules of conduct) that are respectful toward others, it is usually welcomed, but if it transforms into an ideology that respects only it's own kind, it becomes dangerous. Hense, you get fundamentalists that believe only their own " kind" are going to be raptured or transended to a higher level and the rest of us are toast. They may become so devoted to this notion that they aren't above
hurrying it along. It's quite an ego trip and has nothing to do with spirituality.

Clarification: My favorite definition of spirituality is one borrowed from Jean Grasso Fitzpatrick. She says that spirituality is "the awareness of our sacred connections to all of life". It could be animal or plant life and timeless in dimension. You can add a belief in a diety if you wish and I believe it implies a respect for all life. Respect usually results in tolerance.

You may not like all life forms ( I don't like snakes, but I don't go out of my way to
harm them or allow others to do so either) but you can respect
their presence here and believe they are part of God's plan. You
can be scientific about it or awe struck by the beauty of creation. Spiritual people don't usually go around burning others at the stake for religious disagreements. There isn't too much pride or ego invested in being a spiritual person. The satisfaction
one receives in acknowledging the sacred and preserving and protecting life can be enough.

But you can do some pretty amazing things if you are a spiritual person. You can allow your respect for life to empower you to
help the poor or become engaged in saving this beautiful planet we live on. Or you can become engaged in saving your own
soul and let everyone fend for themselves that doesn't agree with you. Salvation is such a drag in my view. I am sure Jesus had a broader meaning in mind than the one currently understood.

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Started out pagan, ended up Christian. Now what?
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Posted by: eastcoker on Jul 31, 2006 8:55 PM   
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Dear AlterNet,
I wouldn't denigrate the power of religious faith if I were you. Many on the left are neopagan or Buddhist, which are two forms of spirituality. Neopagans do believe in God, albeit a pantheistic one.
I would not call Christian Nationalists Christian at all. I would just call them Nationalists. Keep it simple. Christian Nationalists are an insult to people who are striving to be Christian. I wish you could see the difference. Or call them Right Wing
Nationalists, but for God's sake, take the word Christian out of there, for there is nothing Christian about those people.
They give Christians a real bad name.
eastcoker

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Let Us say Grace.
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Posted by: aussidawg on Jul 31, 2006 9:13 PM   
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I have been blessed with my children being converted by evangelical "christians" while separated from my wife. As such, they insist on saying grace prior to each meal to thank "God" for the food. Okay, I propose the following:

Heavenly father, I cannot ascertain your existance by any verifiable, repeated fact;

As such, if you do in fact exist, I thank you for providing the other life forms on this planet, those that have sacrificed the life you gave them, for the material substance of food for us.

I also thank the corporate producers of that "raw material". They have spared me the guilt of killing for my needs. This meal would not be available oh heavenly father, had you not created trucker to get the creature that is no longer in this world to market. Alas,I must also thank the retailer for taking my pentance, made possible by your gracefully allowing me to labor, in return for thy food.

Father, finally, I cannot forget the person, who through his or her labor, was financially able to pay the grocer, who paid the trucker and corporation, who killed the creature, who gave its life, for my supper. Last but not least, I thank the person who prepared the above after all other contributors, so I could nourish my body.

In all the above's names, I pray.

Amen, Awomen, and Adios.

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Riley Case
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Posted by: rileycase on Jul 31, 2006 9:15 PM   
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I am amazed at the anger expressed toward Christian fundamentalists in response to this blog. America owes a great deal to people who by many definitions could be labeled Christian fundamentalists. The Puritans, the Quakers, the Anabaptists, the Presbyterians, the early Methodists contributed a great deal to make this nation what it is. Fundamentalism is not some new thing that was invented by Jerry Falwell. We have been a nation of fundamentalists. They work the fields, the factories, and teach in the schools. They are the people who believe in families. Their kids play basketball and soccer. They are generally happy, law-abiding citizens. They are the people who started the major universities and the hospitals and the orphanages of the land. They normally are rather conservative but quite apolitical. They are the people who have made us different from the Soviet Union, Hitler's Germany, Iran, and France. I work with a Christian non-profit agency serving the poor and homeless. We work with a 1.7 million dollar budget not a penny of which comes from United Way or from tax dollars. Hundreds of volunteers make the work of this agency possible. Probably 80% of our volunteers could be classified as religious fundamentalists. We have atheists in our community but they are not down where the homeless, the poor, the drug addicts, and the sex offenders are. They are off writing angry letters to the editor about how bad George Bush is. There may be 30 to 40 to 50 million fundamentalists in America today. Of course some are crazies; some are politically motivated; some are intolerant. For the most part they keep such a low profile you don't think of them as "fundamentalists." They mostly do not think of themselves that way either. They are simply Christians, trying to be the salt of the earth.

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» Salt of the earth Posted by: CaliforniaWill
» Thank you Riley Case Posted by: jane funk
» RE: iley Case Posted by: SufiLizard
I am shocked, shocked to find ...
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Posted by: jane funk on Aug 1, 2006 1:03 PM   
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Author Roychaudhuri appears almost “…shocked, shocked to find that …” commenters are looking beyond the narrow boundaries of self-indulgent fundamentalist bashing to argue over what, one can only conclude, is the heart of the issue.

“With over 300 comments, Goldberg's interview struck a nerve with AlterNet readers …
While hundreds of comments were posted to the interview, only a fraction directly related to the substance of the text -- the effects of the rise of Christian Nationalism. Rather, they rehashed a difficult dialogue that occurs nearly every time AlterNet publishes an article about religion: the legitimacy of religion and faith itself.”

My cursory readings of the comments suggest that there is nearly unanimous agreement that the Christian Nationalism at the core of the text is a pathological expression of religion and faith. I propose that the reason the discussion spilled over into the “legitimacy of religion and faith itself” is that here in the 21st century and with some minimal grasp of history, we clearly and intrinsically, finally, even if mostly unconciously, recognize and understand that the pathology is organic to religion and faith itself. That is, I humbly suggest, really what the battle is about and what explains the “difficult dialogue” that follows religion. And the discussion that really now must be engaged is what to do with a world that is so, so deeply invested in a construct which contains organic pathology. I, personally, am no longer satisfied, can no longer be pacified, by the religion apologists whose refrain, post hoc, is, has always been, “yes, yes we know how bad all those manifestations of religion are, we’ll take care of it and it won’t happen again, trust us, but just ignore that now and look over here at all the good we do.” It’s not enough anymore, in an impoverished, deeply interdependent, and threatened world adrift in a vast and indifferent universe. It’s not enough.

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» RE: I am shocked, shocked to find ... Posted by: MatthewSavage
Faith, Religion...Whatever You Chose to Call It
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Posted by: Kym525 on Aug 1, 2006 2:47 PM   
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For what it's worth, I'd rather voice my opinion and read those of others here in alternet than in some intolerant right-learning forum where you HAVE to believe what they say or else.

However, I will and DO take exception to the endlessly parroted lie that the Left is hostile to religion. For the zillionth time, WE ARE NOT. There are just as many liberal Christians, Jews and even Moslems as there are the scary fundamentalist ones. In fact I think there are more of US than there are of THEM. If we do have a problem with religion, it has a lot more to do with trying to accomodate the belief systems of so many types of people. Practically everyone who has posted here seem to focus solely on the Big Three religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - but ignore the other forms of worship such as Wicca, Native American spirituality, Santeria, Vodoun, Zorastrianism amongst others. Hell (no pun intended), even Satanism counts as a religion. The Left, as far as I see it, are trying to perform this delicate balancing act by not favoring one form of belief over others. It's frustrating because doing so gets us labeled as 'hostile' simply because we don't allow the Big Three utter supremacy.

Also we liberal believers have sat idly by, hoping against hope that people would be understand that FAITH (unlike RELIGION) is NOT about a power trip. Unfortunately, the fundamentalists offer something to not just the average person, but to the poor and downtrodden that we do not, or seem to not. That something is an easy answer to all their problems. The dominionist tells you, don't worry that you've lost your job and your children don't have ample food or clothing - Jesus is coming back and will make things all better for you - now, go beat up on homosexuals. The fundamentalist Moslem tells you, the reason you are poor is because of the 'evil West' and those Jews, so here, strap this flak jacket filled with explosives and blow yourself up in the middle of a crowded marketplace and you'll be a martyr.

Instant gratification. Easy answers.

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» RE: Faith, Religion...Whatever You Chose to Call It Posted by: ljsullivan1166@earthlink.net
oh christ...who cares!
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Posted by: peridot on Aug 1, 2006 9:51 PM   
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Thomas Jefferson (of course) summed it all up very nicely a long time ago....'I care not what a man believes as long as he does not pick my pocket or break my leg...'You see, that is just the problem were having right now. The clerical facsists are picking our pockets and are breaking as many legs as they can.

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Ahem...the point is...
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Posted by: peridot on Aug 1, 2006 10:13 PM   
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No topic, issue, or concern was more fully vented by those who founded this country than the relationship twixt politics and religion. Many of the founders were indeed convinced Christians. Nevertheless, they came to the conclusion that although religion was inevitable in politics, it would be poison in democratic government. Therefore, they created a seperation between GOVERNMENT and religion. It worked well for quite a while. We can discuss the immutable and curious aberations of religious institutions until the genetically altered cows come home. What we got here in America is BAD GOVERNMENT. Our Constitution compells patriots to act to restore GOOD (ie constitutional) GOVERNMENT.

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What was the question, again?
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Posted by: bmartling on Aug 1, 2006 10:24 PM   
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1) Are we discussing the ideal or reality of 'religion'?
Minnesota's Rev. Gregory Boyd, recently put it: "Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn't bloody and barbaric. "
All historic 'religions' have been as bad as empires and nation/states as far as greed, cruelty, etc.
2) What is this new 'Christian Nationalism'? Is it, once again, the platonic idea of a Christian state, governing by the principles of Jesus? Or is it a wish for something more white, with less crime, less gays, simpler, etc?

There's no chance that the leaders or the followers have good intentions. Any discussion of 'religion' or 'faith' is inappropriate, pointless, counter-productive.

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It's simple.
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Posted by: ebliso on Aug 2, 2006 12:15 AM   
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I think we're talking about the danger of shoe-horning reality using what is , in all honesty, a mythology-based worldview . You can believe any irrational, crazy myth you want, but when you try to impose that myth (and its associated correlaries) onto the real, actual, physical world , you will inevitably need to develop mucho cognitive dissonance and learn to ignore inconvient truths about the world. So, fine, you believe that wood-nyphs want you to burn down all the forests so they can free of their tree-prisons (and you probably believe this because you are taught to believe by your parents or other authority figures) ? Fine. Great. The problem arrises when you try to actually MAKE this mythology a REALITY. You wanna worship a deity whoexplicitly states that gravity is a myth ? Wonderful! But let me know if that BELIEF let's you actually float up into the sky of your own accord. We in the 'reality-based' community would only get upset when you in the 'faith-based' community try to teach our children that gravity is a lie and , despite all the evidence that supports the theory of gravity, all one need do is BELIEVE it isn't real . We in the 'reality-based' community only get upset when you take over political parties and force (or intimidate) them to change the laws of our nation to state that 'America does not recognize the gravitational theory ' ; to have our currency state ' In non-gravity we trust' . We would start to get upset when politicians begin to eliminate funding for food and contraception and developement aid to developing nations because those nations do not subscribe to the 'non-gravity theory'. We get pissed off when minorities are denied equal rights in our own country because they are singled out by the religious texts of the non-gravity believers as somehow evil or unworthy or unclean (it doesn't have to make sense, that's kind fo the point!).
Imagine , if you will, that the space program and airplane travel are halted because a fundamentalist non-gravity believer is in the White House...obviously , this faith-based president couldn't very well allow NASA or the airline industry to continuously and flagrantly thumb its nose at the concept of non-gravity , and if you have to use aerodynamics and massive amounts of fuel to escape the pull of Earths gravity, then the entire belief system of millions could be in question. THIS is why some of have a H U G E problem with the toxic mix of fundamentalist religion and government .

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Slander, Pandering, or Ignorance
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Posted by: splendid on Aug 3, 2006 5:32 AM   
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Check out this postcard - http://splendid.backpackit.com/pub/689592 - paid for by the AMA! - in which a Republican congressman tells his constituents that the right-wing, pro-war, fundamentalist church group that has been picketing at dead soldiers' funerals is an anti-war group. Really.

Now they are claiming that the worst members of their own kind are actually from the other side. Worse, lots of people are believing them. I talked to three already today to three people who fell for it.

Link includes images of the postcard.

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Snooze...
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Posted by: Burton on Aug 4, 2006 11:55 PM   
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Back in the 1960s and '70s and early '80s, when churchmen were leftists (eg the Berrigans, Archbishop Romero, liberation theologists), politicized churchfolk were all the rage on the left. Now that the right has picked up this trick, we get all bent out of shape.

Think I will pass on the hypocrisy.

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