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Punishment For Pregnant Women

By Lynn M. Paltrow, TomPaine.com. Posted July 18, 2006.


A proposed law would prevent pregnant women from smoking. Could a law requiring women to breastfeed be far behind?

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In a society that values children, it's striking how frequently our public policy falls short of our rhetoric. Too often, the notion of collective responsibility for the nation's children translates into collective demonization of pregnant women. Collective responsibility for our children should mean support for policies that help pregnant women get the care they need to have healthy babies. Instead, states and localities are increasingly blaming individual women, exaggerating the harms from individual behaviors.

In Arkansas' recent special spring session, Hot Springs Rep. Bob Mathis followed up his successful proposal to make it illegal for someone to smoke in a car with children with a proposal to ban pregnant women from smoking. For those who subscribe to the view that pregnant women are vessels, treating them like cars makes perfect sense.

No one disputes that smoking, drinking and using drugs raise serious health issues for everyone, including pregnant women and their future children. Addressing these health matters, however, through punitive prohibition measures does not work to protect the health of women or the babies they're carrying. Rather, focusing on pregnant women as dangerous people who require special control or punishment inevitably undermines maternal and fetal health. Such measures divert attention from pregnant women's lack of access to health services, and deters them from seeking what little help is available. That is why medical groups including the American Medical Association, the March of Dimes and the American Academy of Pediatrics overwhelmingly oppose punitive measures targeting pregnant women.

Nevertheless, Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee supported Mathis' proposal, saying, "A lawmaker's suggestion to prohibit women from smoking during pregnancy makes sense from a health standpoint."

It only makes sense if you haven't bothered to think for a moment about the nature of addiction. Ask Rush Limbaugh, who has by word and deed made clear that addiction -- even for the most popular and economically privileged people -- can be very very difficult to overcome. According to press accounts, Huckabee added that "such a prohibition, if enacted, would probably have to cover other unhealthy activities such as drinking." Perhaps the governor forgot about America's experiment with alcohol prohibition in the 1920s. It failed miserably and there is nothing to suggest that resurrecting it for women only will work any better.

Meanwhile, a county in Alabama is also pursuing public policies that punish pregnant women for their otherwise legal behaviors. Late last month in Franklin County, a woman was arrested and charged with child torture for giving birth to a baby that tested positive for methamphetamine. Never mind that Alabama's legislature has not made it a crime to continue a pregnancy to term in spite of a drug problem or that more than 90 medical researchers warn not to rush to judgment about the potential harms of prenatal exposure to methamphetamine. And just ignore the fact that access to appropriate family drug treatment for pregnant and parenting women is virtually non-existent in this country.

Again, drug use and pregnancy are serious public health issues. But reinterpreting pregnancy as a form of torture and pregnant women as torturers won't help. Drug treatment, access to health care and family support will. It is highly unlikely, however that these services will be provided if the pregnant women and new mothers who need those services are stigmatized as child torturers.

Recent days have also seen a California jury deadlock 6-6 in the case of a woman accused of murdering her infant son by feeding him breast milk containing methamphetamine. What was originally identified as an infant death due to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome became a murder case when prosecutors found traces of methamphetamine in the baby's system. Prosecutors could not even prove the mother breastfed, but they pursued this theory anyway. The mother was convicted at her first trial. The conviction was overturned and the latest trial resulted in the deadlock.

Now let's bring all this full circle. A June 13 story in The New York Times entitled "Breast-Feed or Else" reports that the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has recently come up with a new, strident pro-breast-feeding campaign. The campaign warns that not breast-feeding may be hazardous to a baby's health and it equates failure to breast feed with risky behaviors like smoking and drinking during pregnancy.

So while Washington launches a government-sponsored breastfeeding campaign built on the premise that mothers who don't breast feed are bad, prosecutors in California have been working hard to portray mothers who do breast-feed as worse, in this case as potential murderers.

These seemingly unrelated events share a common feature -- they all focus attention on pregnant women and mothers as the primary threats to the health and well being of our children. Such a preoccupation with pregnant women stands in stark contrast with a government that allows coal-burning power plants to pour poisonous mercury into the environment with impunity and the 45 million people without health insurance -- including many pregnant women and new mothers who lack coverage for smoking cessation programs, addiction treatment and mental health services.

These disparate interventions and proposals have something else in common. They ensure that pregnant women and new mothers will be at risk of judgment and punishment no matter what they do. It is hard to imagine a worse scenario for anyone serious about improving maternal, fetal and child health.

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Lynn Paltrow is the executive director of National Advocates for Pregnant Women.

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My first instinct...
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Jul 18, 2006 12:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...was to think "YEAH!!! Legislate against stupidity! Because there ARE stupid women out there, as well as just ignorant women who will do stupid stuff like smoking during pregnancy."

But I read the article and yes - it does appear to be making women the scapegoats and whipping bags of people who should be working and trying harder.

Why not just legislate to make sure everyone gets a good education - during school and throughout societies and communities. That way, women can make choices, instead of just letting life wander by in an ignorant fashion. Give them education and support and women can make EDUCATED choices that are likely to be healthier for them AND their babies. Teach them that if they smoke during pregnancy, their children will be WAY more expensive to bring up because they will need growth hormones in order to not be midgets and they will also have a much greater risk of being mentally deficient, etc.

Either that or do what the Australian government did here years and years ago and tax cigarrettes to such an extent that they are prohibitively expensive. (The taxes go into the health system because smokers get sick more often)

Cigarettes here are currently about $10-$12 per packet.

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» Great Idea!!! Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Great Idea!!! Posted by: PickleBarrel
» RE: Great Idea!!! Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Great Idea!!! Posted by: juergen
» RE: Great Idea!!! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Great Idea!!! Posted by: Aussie Kim
» I think it's a pragmatic thing Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Great Idea!!! Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Great Idea!!! Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Great Idea!!! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Great Idea!!! Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: My first instinct... Posted by: Eithne
» What Brand Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: My first instinct... Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: My first instinct... Posted by: hiryuu75
» RE: My first instinct... Posted by: smulcahy
how unsurprising
Posted by: coldeye on Jul 18, 2006 1:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the war against smokers simply has moved into another logical stage. government tells private businesses how their customers should behave; now it just bans smokinng by individuals because of gender. since blacks may have genetic dispostion to higher lung cancer deaths, why not tell blacks they can't smoke. Or Jews with higher heart disease rates they can't eat traditional Jewish foods on Sabbath. Or Latinnos cant eat......etc.

I mean the government knows best right? It would not subsidize farmers who put chemicals into food, right?

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» RE: how unsurprising Posted by: christininrome
Editorial note
Posted by: Fang-Face Dreamweaver on Jul 18, 2006 2:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is only on "e" in vassels. Personally, I would have used the word "chattel".

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» RE: Editorial note Posted by: mazur
» RE: ditorial note Posted by: Sushi
» RE: ditorial note Posted by: Shehova
Thanks for pointing out the double standards govt gives to Big Coal
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 18, 2006 2:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As soon as petroleum runs out, Big Coal will step in and given that mercury poisoning causes far more fetal deaths than even typical murderers and abortions combined, get ready for Amerika to turn into an even bigger prison nation ready to torture pregnant women to death. "Pro-life" eh? And don't think that men will be suffering any less as more burdens will be placed on them since our rightwing nazis don't believe in family values much as they try to claim otherwise.

P.S.: Methamphetamine has always been used as an illegitimate excuse to ban hemp production. But hey, what they fuck? I guess this country still needs to keep its fossil fuel dependence going given how nearly identical the Muslim Fundies and the Christian Fundies are and their admiration of it.

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Maxpayne--mercury causes more fetal deaths than abortion
Posted by: drappleby on Jul 18, 2006 2:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maxpayne, you state that "mercury poisoning (I am assuming you mean as a by-product from burning coal?) causes far more fetal deaths than.....abortions." There have been more than 30 million abortions in the U.S. since 1972. Could you please show us some solid, peer reviewed studies to back up your assertion? regards

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drew
Posted by: drew on Jul 18, 2006 3:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a woman who has decided to have a baby has, by definition, made the decision about her body, herself and her future. This is not a right to choose issue, not an issue of abortion rights, but an issue of parental responsibility. Prenatal and postnatal smoking does threaten a baby's health and development- and damage to health and development is the defining characteristic of abuse. What is a child's right to health and what is the obligation of a person who has choosen to and is anticipating becoming be a parent to provide for that health? You seem to be be saying that there should not be an obligation of society to intervene when a parent is, knowlingly, failing to provide for the well being of a child. The child does have a right to health, well being and protection and, in those instances in which abuse is taking place, society should intervene. Education before the fact is important, but not providing for protection when a parent is abusive is inexcusable under any circumstances of abuse.
I would strongly agree with your point about industrial polution- it likewise is a violation of the rights to health of us all- it isn't an either or issue and it is a mistake to dichotomize your thinking. Pregnant women are not as you say THE primary threat but they certainly can be A threat to a child's right.

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» RE: drew Posted by: Eithne
» RE: EITHNE Posted by: getoutofiraqnow
» RE: drew Posted by: juergen
» RE: drew Posted by: nylaw13
» RE: drew Posted by: nylaw13
» RE: drew Posted by: drew
» Ban women driving Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: drew Posted by: jmoore
» RE: drew Posted by: thisway
Blame The Victim
Posted by: ChristopherLL on Jul 18, 2006 3:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First of all men should not be left out of any discussion concerning reproduction, healthy lives and healthy babies. Research suggests that those toxins in cigarettes, many drugs and certainly industrial polutants may damage the genetics of sperm (birth defects; autism; SIDS?). Sperm constantly reproduce making them far more vulnerable to mutations than ovumm which are dormant from birth. Second is that the government and the legal system has lost contact with humanity in general and seem to follow their own self generated vision of human behavior which has little to do with reality. There are over 150 types of addition and nicotine is just one. If legislatures or courts were serious about the health of human beings they would remove nicotine from cigarettes. Any addiction is based on self medicatiing or engaging in behavior meant to assuage emotional pain or turmoil (stress, depression). The causes of these are being multiplied in our society which is becoming more technologic, material and rigid. Judgment and punishment are the dominant methods in an attempt to control people rather than understanding, compassion, forgiveness and support. We are less able to do the latter. It simply comes down to blaming the victim. It is the easy way out.

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» RE: Blame The Victim Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Blame The Victim Posted by: fork
» RE: Blame The Victim Posted by: aussidawg
Tax cigarrettes
Posted by: Annarisse on Jul 18, 2006 4:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Canada tried that. The result was a black market across the border, particularly with Native people selling American cigs for much cheaper. It would be great to do that on both sides of the border, though. What high school kid could afford to smoke?

As for taxes on being fat - that's setting up a straw-man slippery-slope argument. Obesity is a result of many different factors, only some of which are within individual control; smoking is a behaviour. They are not equatable. Similar techniques will not work on them, so implying that similar techniques logically flow from each other and all of them are flawed is very poor logic.

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» Not to mention... Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Tax cigarrettes Posted by: Aim
Those last two paragraphs are nonsense.
Posted by: BJT on Jul 18, 2006 4:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is not an attack on pregnant women. It's an attack on all of us. Pregnant women are just an easy target.

The premise behind these laws is not a transference of responsibility. The premise is that the State knows better than you how to take care of yourself. Now, I know the Left leans toward socialism and thus agrees that the State knows better than we do what to do with our money (which must mean they are pro-war, the bastards), but hear me out.

The smoking bans, the seatbelt laws, the Drug War, all of it is a campaign to establish that the State is the authority on personal conduct. Slowly the premise is being built that anything bad for you should be illegal, and that the State is who you should consult to find out if something is OK for you to do, eat, drink, inject or inhale.

This might just be bureaucrats looking for any excuse to make a new law. This might be part of a concerted effort in government to make us its cattle. Either way, it is all part of a general assault on our personal rights. To complain that it's some kind of anti-environmentalist transferrence of responsibility to the poor pregnant girls is the bleeding heart hippie in you looking for a way to make it a sob story about helpless victims.

Don't listen to the hippie. It doesn't look at the whole picture. This government wants to control your life. Economically AND socially. It's your fault they're doing it because you've bought their premises.

How long is it going to take before you stop electing Republicans and Democrats? They are just going to continue this bullshit. Find a different party. Or help start one.

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» Paranoia Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Paranoia Posted by: mama_jess
» RE: Paranoia Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Paranoia Posted by: Shehova
» RE: Paranoia Posted by: paulaH
» Control Posted by: YogiBear
» The slow leak of liberty Posted by: YogiBear
war
Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 18, 2006 5:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We don't need a war against women who abuse unhealthy drugs. We need a war against all those who profit from unhealthy drugs like tobacco and hard booz. It should be totally illegal for anyone to profit from making/selling/promoting any of the really bad drugs that harm human health. It is totally hypocritical to have any war against drugs without this provision.

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» RE: war Posted by: Be Positive
» RE: war Posted by: Aussie Kim
metaphor
Posted by: kh on Jul 18, 2006 6:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's worth thinking about this initiative as metaphor expressing a larger societal feeling of not being nurtured, of being negatively nurtured. Maps to the reduction of safety net and to the extension of corporate/commercial/objectifying principles into private/domestic/social life -- a feeling that our society isn't nurturing us, or is negatively nurturing us; that we are being fed poison.

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Defective issue
Posted by: ankhet on Jul 18, 2006 6:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just wondering...why don't the legislators go after men who abuse substances, legal or otherwise, and cause their sperm to be defective? Alcoholism damages sperm - many other substances - and behaviours - do, as well.

This fetal health issue is entirely bogus. It has more to do with getting women out of public life and out of the workforce.

It also acts as compliance/obedience training - teaching that a person doesn't own him/herself, that those who claim to pay your way (wages, insurance) have more rights to you than you do. Women are an easy and obvious target for that, and the American worker/citizen is already treated more like property than a person with the dignity assumed in the Bill of Rights.

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» RE: Defective issue Posted by: juergen
» Part II Posted by: juergen
» RE: Part II Posted by: Aim
» RE: Part II Posted by: Cathyblj
Check out a movie...
Posted by: zooeyhall on Jul 18, 2006 6:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...from the 1990's called "The Handmaid's Tale". It is a prophetic movie that stars Robert Duvall and is disturbingly predictive of trends today.

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» RE: Check out a movie... Posted by: SekhmetsatRa
scare them into it!
Posted by: wearesilhouettes on Jul 18, 2006 7:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This "yahoo" logic (think Bush) is just right on track with America's tactic of scaring people and fining them for mistakes instead of logic or education. I agree with the previous poster who said that this is "negative nurturing" instead of positive which leads to fear and control. It's like manipulation. Also, it's a blatant pass for State control over the people, instead of people thinking for themselves. Somehow I believe that this government thinks that we can't make decisions for ourselves...

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Let's just sterilize smokers
Posted by: xbj on Jul 18, 2006 7:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's an idea... let's just sterilize smokers. And reverse it only if they quit. With weekly drugtests, of course.

Solves everyone's problems, and increases the intelligence and overall health of the human race as well.

(Joking.)

This is a real tough one. Do pregnant women poision their fetuses?

Of course.

Do smoking parents who smoke indoors poison their kids, placing time bomb carcinogens in their bodies for often decades-later cancers, even if their kids never smoked?

Absolutely.

Do smokers in enclosed public places kill the people that have to work in them to make a living?

Certainly. All this has been proven by every single study NOT funded by the tobacco companies.

But how about this idea?

Make it illegal for any business to sell a poisionous product. Sounds reasonable, right? Obvious, even?

That ends the problem. No tobacco products worldwide, no smokers, no posioned fetuses, no posioned kids, no poisoned people. Well, except for the small group of desperate hillbillies who will grow their own. But that will become a criminal problem, and no longer a social one. And then, ONLY CRIMINALIZE the growers, suppliers, and dealers; NOT the users.

Let's go after the real culprit here, and NEVER TAKE OUR EYES OF THE TARGET:

BIG TOBACCO. SELLING POSION TO THE WORLD and KILLING BILLIONS, for hundreds of years.

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» Wow Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Wow Posted by: xbj
» RE: Wow Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Wow Posted by: jmoore
» RE: Wow Posted by: xbj
» RE: Wow Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Wow Posted by: xbj
» RE: Wow Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Wow Posted by: xbj
» RE: Wow--xbj Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Wow--xbj Posted by: xbj
» RE: Wow Posted by: xbj
» RE: Wow Posted by: artteezy
» RE: Wow Posted by: xbj
» Smoking, child health and abortion!!! Posted by: Conservasaurus
Do the right thing.
Posted by: WitchyNy on Jul 18, 2006 7:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You are right. It is unfair.
It should be illegal for ANYONE to smoke tobacco.

Also it should be illegal to drink too much booze, work to much (and still not earn a living wage), not love and play with your children, to not be able to read well, to not vote, to eat meat, white bread and white sugar, and to drink soft drinks instead of fruit juice. And not brush your teeth.

And living by a large lake as I do, and hearing the sirens all summer long...I think it should be illegal for people to go near water if they don't know how to swim well.

I am serious. What is a law? It is only a symbol of what we as a people- believe in. Let's grow up, do the right thing and work towards a world- where common sense prevails.

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» RE: Do the right thing. Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Do the right thing. Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Do the right thing. Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Do the right thing. Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Do the right thing. Posted by: coldeye
Fund Healthcare/Daycare - Don't legislate morality
Posted by: sofla100 on Jul 18, 2006 7:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is once again another example of state legislative stupidity. Perhaps we should also make pregnant women listen to mozart concerts because it might be good for the baby. Of course, pregnant women should not smoke. But, you cannot legislate it. What's next when you try, Guantanamo for pregnant women (don't give GWB any ideas please!). You want to legislate something, how about this one. Affordable, decent healthcare for all the residents of your state. Whey don't you do that. Or, decent, subsidized daycare.

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More Government Intrusion
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jul 18, 2006 7:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, let me say that I smoke & am a resident of Arkansas. Second, I do not smoke in my car with anyone who does not smoke-- period. I try to be respectful of others right to not breathe second hand smoke, but expect a little consideration in return.

Last year Arkansas banned smoking in any form on the CAMPUS of any hospital, clinic or medical office. Yes, you read that correctly. Not 100 feet or 100 yards from an entrance or even in your own car in the parking lot. I have no argument with protecting the public from second hand smoke, but this goes beyond the pale. The proposed law discussed in the article is just more of the same.

Bad or poorly considered laws do not improve the general welfare or safety-- they just tempt people to break the law. Just like the mandatory nationwide 55 MPH Speed Limit made lawbreakers out of tens of millions of otherwise law-abiding citizens, this kind of law is unenforceable and breaks down respect for the law in general. Do you really think that the smoke police are going to be watching for you? With all of the crime going on in our country, is this the best use of our legislature's time and consideration?

The government has a reasonable interest in promoting the general welfare, but at some point things must be left to individual choices. Just as decisions regarding abortion, drinking and who you sleep with should be left up to the individual; the same should apply here. Unenforceable laws designed to impose someone else's moral choices are in nobody's interest. Since our legal system is heavily based upon precedent, stepping so deeply into someone's personal conduct could come back to bite many sacred cows in other's lives later.

It's real simple:
Smokers should be considerate of others and use restraint and prudence in their use of tobacco. I'll continue to go outside, well away from entrances so you don't have to wade through a cloud of smoke.

Likewise, non-smokers should not try to drive smokers off of the face of the earth. Remember the concept about rights extending to the point that they intrude upon others? I'll stay away from you while smoking, so please return the favor.

A little reason, consideration and tolerance in many things would make our world a better place.

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Flawed Logic
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jul 18, 2006 8:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The whole concept about taxing tobacco heavily to 'recover' costs associated with smoking is complete and utter B$.

Why not heavily tax Tanning Booths because sunbathers have higher rates of skin cancer?
How about heavy taxes on alcohol due to the higher incidence of ulcers, pancreatitis, stomach cancer, hepatitis and Cirrhosis?
How about heavy taxes on condoms and other birth control because people who are more promiscuous and/or sexually active are more prone to a whole range of STD's and potentially HIV?
How about massive taxes on junk food that have contributed to the obesity epidemic in the US because these people are more prone to Diabetes, CV disease and a whole laundry list of other health problems?

The simple fact about smokers costing the government more is a plain and simple lie- just an excuse to shake down companies for money. Probably 75% of the current retail price of a pack of cigarettes is Federal, State, County or City TAX. Most states double dip with both a tobacco tax and a sales tax. Tobacco has been heavily taxed in the US by the Federal and State governments from the dawn of our nation. Most local governments also tax tobacco products through sales taxes. Additionally, every tobacco retailer has had to purchase special licenses from the state, county and city to sell tobacco.

Every smoker has also paid into the same Social Security, Medicaid, Income Tax and sales tax systems that have paid uninsured costs associated with illness associated with tobacco use. Like most non-smokers, most smokers have health insurance which has paid most of their health care costs.

The lawsuits launched by states and the Feds to 'recover' money from tobacco companies were nothing more than trolling for dollars and should have been thrown out upon their filing. The fact that most have been nullified upon appeal shows how vaporous the legal argument is.

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» RE: Flawed Logic Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Flawed Logic Posted by: Jordon
» RE: Flawed Logic Posted by: FauxPorteno
» RE: Flawed Logic Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Flawed Logic Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Flawed Logic Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Flawed Logic Posted by: YogiBear
There's never a Feminist around when you need one ...
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Jul 18, 2006 8:25 AM   
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That's one of the disadvantages of living in a Post-Feminist political environment ...

Without feminist sensibility this sort of Right to Life legislation seems sensible. After all, if "people who become pregnant" can be prevented from making bad choices that cost taxpayers and insurers money ... that's not a question of Women and their 'special rights' ... it's just the legitimate operation of State interest in the well being of its citizens -- both the born, and the pre-born.

Only a Feminist would object to slipping the 'pre born citizen' into the argument. Only a feminist would notice that such laws fall exclusively on 'persons' of the Female persuasion. Only a Feminist would, without embarassment, assert that the right of the living woman to 'equal protection of laws' here and now might override a State concern about the well-being of a 'potential person' at some time in the future.

And, probably, only a Feminist would notice that these 'fetus protection' laws have less to do with producing healthy babies who do not burden the public health services or private insurance industries ... than they do with selectively targeting women for a higher and more difficult standard of behavior than men because 'oppression of women' is, in some communities, a wildly popular thing to do, politically.

In fact, only a feminist would use the term 'ppression of women' as if it were an issue, let alone an important one.

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This is insane
Posted by: eastcoker on Jul 18, 2006 8:25 AM   
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This article does not make any sense. I am going to have to disseminate it to my cronies to make sense out of it, my cronies in the religious and feminist world. I will get back to you. At least I could finish it unlike that article on George Lakoff.

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hmmmmm
Posted by: mysticalrae on Jul 18, 2006 8:37 AM   
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Why not include the fathers, brothers, sisters and anyone else that comes in contact with the pregnant woman? And the father of the baby as well? and all of the co-workers, bosses, etc, because we know how detrimental second hand smoke is? C'mon people! now we're going to have smoke police!!

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leolady
Posted by: Leolady on Jul 18, 2006 8:40 AM   
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Our society seems to find new and creative ways to objectify women. If we are intent on reducing people to their body parts, then we should, in the interest of fairness, expand this to cover men as well. Why not legislate against the misuse of the penis? After all, if wrongly used, it can be a deadly weapon.

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» RE: leolady Posted by: realmuzik
Oh my gosh, next the evil legislators will make it crime for a pregnant woman...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 18, 2006 9:13 AM   
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...not to be wearing a seatbelt while inside a moving motor vehicle! Oh, the humanity!

Oh...uh...wait a sec...

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There ought to be a law against all stupidities
Posted by: davinci on Jul 18, 2006 9:32 AM   
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The manufacture of cigarettes should be totally banned all over the planet. Corporations have made enough money on this and could probably make money getting us hooked on something else that's harmless, like pure water and clean air. There are already enough people, besides children, who have died of cancer from passive smoking. While we are at it, only unorganised religion should be lawful.

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just plain dumb
Posted by: classcynic on Jul 18, 2006 9:41 AM   
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What's next: pregnant women arrested for hazardous levels of dioxin in their breast milk? I am sick of this kind of anti-woman sentiment. I am sick of men trying to control every aspect of a woman's life.

How about a law that says if a man has a heart attack because he was using Viagra, he gets thrown in jail for attempting suicide?

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IQ's higher with breastfeeding, immune system helped
Posted by: plantland on Jul 18, 2006 9:44 AM   
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A group advocating for pregnant women is wrong to take aim at HHS for its"strident" position of promoting breastfeeding. While it is theoretically in line with choice to question HHS's stand, given the four to six point " loss " of IQ when Nature's plan is not put to use, seeing this as a feminist issue rather than a human rights issue (every child should receive nurturing and food which will enable proper neuronal development) is not best for society. More children fall in the retarded range of under 70 and fewer reach 130.

Since the African American rate of breast feeding is by far the lowest, promoting breast feeding in all groups could eliminate the achievement gap now being addressed but not solved everywhere.

My suggestion- embrace HHS's promotion of breastfeeding, and then work to provide social supports to enable women to actually do so. Generous stipends to stay home with an infant rather than to go to work are thus in America's best interest.

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» RE: breastfeeding Posted by: janakiblum
Women over here, Men over there. Blacks here, whites there. Division makes us weaker
Posted by: unperson on Jul 18, 2006 9:50 AM   
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Why is it that the articles on this site always look for a women's angle in everything? May only women be liberals? You would think so, because all your articles take the viewpoint of the woman? Does that mean that men should go over to Rush Limbaugh and Bush?

Also, this site and other sites like it (liberal sites) always take the minority perspective? Is being liberal only for minorities (and women)? Does that mean that whites should go over to Rush Limbaugh and Bush?

Is that deliberate? Because I think that is good for the rich people to have everyone else divided up into factions. I wonder which side this site is on?

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A woman's right to abuse her child?
Posted by: H_H on Jul 18, 2006 10:06 AM   
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Look, if someone is going to be pregnant and bring the child to term, I it puts a burden of responsibility on the mother to not do obviously harmful things (smoking, drinking, drug use) to put the child in harm.

The #1 cause of mental retardation in the US is Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (when the mom drinks while pregnant) and it's 100% preventable. If I were to force-feed alcohol to a child, I'd be thrown in jail. It would not infringe upon abortion rights AT ALL to prevent moms from drinking while pregnant. This isn't treating women like "vessels". Let's cut the hyperbole and use an ounce of common sense, shall we?

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» fetal alcohol syndrome Posted by: paulaH
on the plus side
Posted by: ursamajor on Jul 18, 2006 10:29 AM   
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now what if women were required to breastfeed?
Then we would have to cancel our rediculous public decency laws, give women places to breast feed or pump milk at work and think of all the opportunites to tell everyone that agribusiness is unhealthy for children.

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» RE: on the plus side--? Posted by: kimaszi
» RE: on the plus side Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: on the plus side Posted by: morticia
What's happened to this comment section?
Posted by: Aim on Jul 18, 2006 11:07 AM   
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When you try to reply to a particular comment, your comment goes to the bottom of the page, instead of underneath the one you're responding to. It's happened to me several times now, and I can see it all through the blogs, making it harder and harder for our discourse to make sense, much less be relevant. Anyone know how to report it to so maybe it can be fixed???

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PASSIVE SMOKERS AT RISK TOO
Posted by: getoutofiraqnow on Jul 18, 2006 11:09 AM   
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"Exposure to passive smoking during pregnancy is an independent risk factor for low birth weight.... Short term exposure to tobacco smoke also has a measurable effect on the heart in non-smokers. Just 30 minutes exposure is enough to reduce coronary blood flow. " http://www.ash.org.uk/html/factsheets/html/fact08.html

And passive or secondhand smoking leads to quite a few health issues...it is not only that smoking a cigarette is harmful, people around smokers are affected too.
SO then really we should have laws that make it illegal for ANY PERSON to smoke in the vicinity of pregnant women. WHY not include this law as well instead of only prosecuting women???

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» RE: PASSIVE SMOKERS AT RISK TOO Posted by: Aussie Kim
Hey, the air in most places is bloody filthy...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jul 18, 2006 11:36 AM   
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... yep, its even getting a bit nasty in places like Arkansas.

Why not just make it illegal for pregnant women to breathe at all....

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This is STUPID
Posted by: Jordon on Jul 18, 2006 12:36 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just because this law applies only to women does not mean it is sexist. Now yes, that sounds impossible, but consider this: ONLY WOMEN CAN HAVE BABIES. Stop turning this into a sexist debate, its not; this law exists to protect the child. Children in the womb cannot stop their mothers from smoking, and cannot choose to be in a different "non-smoking" womb. The law about not smoking while a child is in the car also makes sense along the same lines. For once republicans are standing up against big business; for once they are deserving of applause. I would have no issue with people who smoke if smoking harmed only the individual smoker, but it doesn't, it hurts everyone around them. Especially if they have kids. For god-sakes, you all are left-wingers, don't buy into Big Tobbacco's bullshit about there being no proof that second hand smoke kills. You all support government regulation in other areas of consumer safety, but you are being hypocritical, and probably just because you smoke. There is no right to smoke. There is a right to skydive, why? Because only YOU can die from it. SMOKING HURTS EVERYONE! And also, that whole "is mandatory breast feeding next?" scare tactic reminds me of a right-winged blog asking "is man-animal marriage next?". Don't be "slippery slopers"; this law, created to protect children unable to protect themselves, is good, whether created by a Republican or Dem. Fuck, Alternet is becoming more and more like a left winged Fox, this debate is stupid. If you smoke, and enjoy it, I don't give a shit; you will NOT smoke near me, or others who do not wish it.

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» RE: This is STUPID Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: This is STUPID Posted by: AmyB
» RE: This is STUPID Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: This is STUPID Posted by: Aussie Kim
Second Hand Smoke and Captian Kangaroo
Posted by: Conservasaurus on Jul 18, 2006 12:47 PM   
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Isnt second hand smoke more of a threat? So maybe a law outlawing them to be anywhere smoking is allowed???*L*..

government can't legislate someones life.. people have to use their heads..

on another note Captian Kangaroo died!!!

Bob Keeshan, who gently entertained and educated generations of children as television’s walrus-mustachioed Captain Kangaroo, died Friday at 76. Keeshan, who lived in Hartford, Vt., died of a long illness, his family said in a statement. Keeshan’s "Captain Kangaroo" premiered on CBS in 1955 and ran for 30 years before moving to public television for six more. It was wildly popular among children and won six Emmy Awards, three Gabriels and three Peabody Awards. The format was simple: Each day, Captain Kangaroo, with his sugar-bowl haircut and uniform coat, would wander through his Treasure House, chatting with his good friend Mr. Green Jeans, played by Hugh "Lumpy" Brannum. He would visit with puppet animals, like Bunny Rabbit, who was scolded for eating too many carrots, and Mr. Moose, who loved to tell knock-knock jokes. But the show revolved about the grandfatherly Captain Kangaroo, whose name was inspired by the kangaroo pouch-like pockets of the coat Keeshan wore.

My childhood is gone..

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Ban the smoke
Posted by: kit79 on Jul 18, 2006 2:43 PM   
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I don't find the law sexist in expecting pregnant woman who choose to carry the baby to take a certain burden of responsibility in the way I don't think someone who refuses to serve a pregnant lady shots of tequila is sexist or who refuses to provide a man with a date rape drug is sexist. Considering the current government, I do find talk about the pre-born person alarming, but so long as abortion rights are maintained, I don't think such a law in and of itself is objectionable.

What I find objectionable is that when you know something is harmful, we're feeling that the place we can start regulating it is with the women exclusively. Second-hand smoke is a danger too. I'm horribly allergic to it. It should be illegal to smoke around a child and a pregnant lady choosing to carry a child. The father, if present, shouldn't be allowed to smoke either in the name of child endangerment. Then logic follows that if this group of people shouldn't be smoking, maybe NO ONE should smoke. Screw the "right" to smoke - in your own home maybe, with no children about - but smoking interferes with others' rights. I don't feel smokers have the right to make me dizzy and give me migraines.

But the problem with this law with the way things stand, I feel, is that it puts the focus more on the women and not the smoke.

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» RE: Ban the smoke Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Ban the smoke Posted by: MatthewSavage
It's not about smoking...
Posted by: AmyB on Jul 18, 2006 3:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...It's about who controls women's bodies and who gets to make medical decisions and health choices.

It's easy to demonize smokers, but how about women who simply disagree with their doctors' health advice? Like me. My doctor wanted me to go on bed-rest and I didn't do it. If my baby had died, should I be tried for murder because I didn't follow doctor's orders? Think it won't happen? In Utah they charged a woman with murder after she refused C-section surgery.

Do you really want to set up conditions where doctors' orders carry the force of law? No? Well then, let's oppose efforts to strip pregnant women of their civil and human rights without making all these petty value judgements about whether their reasons are acceptable or their lifestyle choices are healthy enough.

--AmyB

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» RE: It's not about smoking... Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: It's not about smoking... Posted by: christii
ANTI TOBACCO RAVEill
Posted by: Be Positive on Jul 18, 2006 4:26 PM   
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Yes - why not ban the sale and production of tobacco products instead of blaming the victims -- who often started before they were old enough to make responsible/mature decisions.

We all need to organize! Boycott evil corporations as much as we can and ORGANIZE!

Here's a little poem for the boyz:

If you think that it's hip to chew
I'll tell you a story that's true
a splendid young man lost his lip to the can
and the same thing could happen to you.

I wrote this anti-chewing tobacco limerick for a contest when I was in high school over 20 years ago... little did I realize that I should have replaced the word "can" with the word "Man" for accuracy's sake.

People let's start to be involved
Let's help each other organize..
so that our future generations will not forever lose the American Dream to corrupt corporate money mongers and perverted politicians.

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In case you missed it...
Posted by: jeff2045 on Jul 18, 2006 6:16 PM   
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Posted above, but considering all the posts that follow, please indulge my urge to repeat some information (ammended) which I feel is essential to intelligent discourse about this subject:

Of all the commonly used addictive substances, including heroin, cocaine, etc., nicotine is by far the worst. If (You mentioned that) you have never smoked, you have no point of reference, and have never experienced the stress of quitting, which in and of itself can reach life-threatening levels.

Some actual numbers: 50 percent of those who use heroin recreationally will become addicted, and half of them will quit spontaneously @ age 50, without intervention of any kind; 90 percent of those who use nicotine become addicted, and very few quit spontaneously.

Stress is one of the leading causes of disease, and smoking is done primarily to relieve stress. We have no way of knowing what the increased stress does to the health and longevity of smokers who are horribly addicted and forced to quit, absent any reason other than social pressure. The effects may be worse, and more costly to society, than the cost of tobacco related illness in and of itself.

The very best smoking cessation methods have dismal success rates. I once walked to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and back in 25 hours, stopping at the bottom for 5 hours sleep. It would be ludicrous to conclude that since I did, then anyone else should be able to. It's equally ludicrous, given the facts, to beleive that anyone should be able to quit smoking. And to think we can ban it is equally ludicrous. The genie is out of the bottle, and it's not going back in.

Making moral judgements about things you know so little about is, IMHO, a far more pathetic habit than smoking. This judgement applies equally to all anti-smoking nazis, and is not directed at you alone.

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OK...
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Jul 18, 2006 8:44 PM   
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...so if people smoke because they are suffering from stress...MAYBE we should change the way the world runs in order to reduce the stress in people's lives.

If people are taking drugs to "get through", MAYBE we should be working out what's wrong and what's forcing people to take such actions.

If societies are forcing people to turn to drugs to cope, MAYBE something is wrong with society...

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» RE: OK... Posted by: jeff2045
I live in Arkansas
Posted by: paulaH on Jul 18, 2006 9:56 PM   
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Recently they managed to get a law passed that banned smoking in restaurants...I think it's still okay in bars. I'm not completely up on the law because I don't smoke.
Although I am a verifiable nonsmoker and although I hate the fact my husband and daughter both smoke, I do not agree with this law. I think it is up to the individual restaurants as to whether or not they want to have smoking sections. If too many of their customers don't want to go there because they don't want to support an establishment because they allow smoking, then that restaurant should have the choice as to whether they want to bow into this demand, or bow to the demand of the smokers. Their choice.

As a consumer, I have the choice of not eating at restaurants that have smoking sections. If there are more like me than like my husband, the restaurants will make the decision to go nonsmoking for themselves.

I find this trend and precedence disturbing. The idea of making it illegal for a pregnant woman to smoke is so very...I don't know...Stalinist, maybe. It's highly intrusive. Are they going to make it illegal for anyone around a pregnant woman to smoke? Do the men in the pregnant women's lives get to continue to puff away in the same room but she can get thrown in prison for lighting up? They say secondhand smoke is worse for a person, therefore, if they want to pass this law, they will need to pass a law concerning the behavior of everyone in the room with the pregnant woman.

For a group who declares they are for less government in our lives, the Republicans sure do like to pass laws that determine every aspect of our lives and behaviors. I think need to realize the Republicans don't want government to stay out of the average citizens' lives, but only out of the big corporations business.

Be wary all you who support such measures. Eventually, they will be telling you that you may only eat certain foods, drink certain drinks, have sex on certain days and that only missionary position is acceptable and blow jobs are totally against the law. Cameras will be installed and your sexual activity will be monitored. As the saying goes, give them an inch, and they want to take a mile. This is a perfect example. They got one stupid law passed so they're taking the momentum to force another one.

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DO NOT AGREE
Posted by: KatieOpinion on Jul 18, 2006 9:56 PM   
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I found the writers subtle stabs toward 'conservatives' amusing. It seems the writers real objective is to bash an idealology they oppose. To me, the article holds little logic or wisdom, much less compassion. Meth addicted women do need compassion, but they also need to be held accountable. All people do, men included. Women should not smoke when pregnant, period. No excuses, no hidding behind the "addiction." It isn't fair to the unborn person! My mother has a paralyzed eye because her mother smoked when she was pregnant. She lives a good life, but she still has a condition that has caused her physical and emotional problems her entire life. I was a smoker for three years. I decided to quit and I did, cold turkey. I understand how hard it is to quit. But it is NOT impossible. A person that does meth then gets pregnant made a bad decision. That decision effects almost everyone in her life, especially the life of her child, and ultimately, our society. Where is our sense of personal responsibility in this article? This author seems to think 'society' is all to blame and not the individual citizens living in it. But guess what, the father has responsibility as well. Men and women who have concieved a child together should BOTH be held responsible for allowing smoking and drugs to go on during pregnancy. They need to be put in a controlled environment.

Women shouldn't be given all the blame, but don't we now have the right to "choose?" Maybe we need to step up and take responsibility for our choices.

Katie L.
Arizona

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» RE: DO NOT AGREE Posted by: drappleby
Maxpayne-"Mercury causes far more fetal deaths ..than abortion"
Posted by: drappleby on Jul 19, 2006 5:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maxpayne, you stated that "mercury poisoning (I assume you mean as a byproduct of burning coal) causes far more fetal deaths than...abortion." There have been about 30 million abortions in the U.S. since 1972. I asked you for some data to back up your statement, since it seems wildly high. I believe that many liberals arrive at their opinions based on their feelings rather than facts. They FEEL something is true, or should be, therefore it IS true. This may work OK in sociology class and Starbucks but I would not want these people to build bridges (but there was just SOOO much steel in the bridge....yeah but your bridge just fell into the river) , etc. I am new to this site but everytime I ask liberals for facts to back up their statements I get .....silence. Maybe that is how it works here? regards

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Pagan Loreli
Posted by: paganloreli on Jul 19, 2006 10:10 AM   
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When people, especially legislators, make this sort of decision, I try to look at the components in order to understand the rationalle. Let's see:

First Equation:
A pregnant woman (or new mother) is punished for deleterious substances she had added to her personal biochemistry, apparently by choice (if one ignroes the fact that the mechanics of addiction renders "choice" a moot point).

% Corporate and/or government polluters add mercury and/or other deleterious substances to all women's biochemistry without consent, and are not punished.

= the issue of deleterious substances added to biochemistry cancells out algebraically. We are left with "a pregnant woman excercising a choice."

Next Equation:
A woman with a fetus within her womb is punished for choosing to do something which may harm the health of said fetus.

% legislation is enacted to curtail or eliminate options other than the practice of celibacy for preventing or terminating the presence of fetuses within wombs.

+ Budgets for public health programs to prevent harm to the health of fetuses (ie: prenatal care; smoking cessation/alcholism/drug treatment programs, etc.) are cut back or eliminated.

= Presence of fetus in womb and health of fetus cancel out. We're left with a woman doing something of her own volition other than the practice of celibacy.

See how things clear up when you do the math? If you're a woman, and you're not celibate, you must be punished. Doesn't matter if you choose sex or it's forced upon you--your penance begins the minute a man decides he wants you and gets his way.

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Values Children????
Posted by: Joycelyn on Jul 19, 2006 12:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a society that values children, it's striking how frequently our public policy falls short of our rhetoric. I have worked, one way and another, with and for children since 1968. If there is one thing that this society as a society does not value it is children. We are perfectly willing to pour money into a war that kills Iraqi children, but not to invest it in programs that help American children. Focus on mother-child welfare as the reason for our high taxes, and ignore the corporate welfare that is the real reason. When funds are cut, it is to programs that benefit women and children. We sexualize little girls' clothing and expose little boys to pretend violence at an age that doesn't understand the concept of pretend.

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Values Children????
Posted by: Joycelyn on Jul 19, 2006 12:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a society that values children, it's striking how frequently our public policy falls short of our rhetoric. I have worked, one way and another, with and for children since 1968. If there is one thing that this society as a society does not value it is children. We are perfectly willing to pour money into a war that kills Iraqi children, but not to invest it in programs that help American children. We focus on mother-child welfare as the reason for our high taxes, and ignore the corporate welfare that is the real reason. When funds are cut, it is to programs that benefit women and children. We sexualize little girls' clothing and expose little boys to pretend violence at an age that doesn't understand the concept of pretend. We target market toddlers, for the love of God (Teletubbies) and develop TV programs designed for children who the American Pediatric Association says should be exposed to 0 (that's zero, zed, none, nada, zilch) hours of TV a week. We have a workplace that requires long hours of overtime, robbing children of their parents' presence. We demand that childfree employees work even more hours so parents don't have to, driving a wedge between these two groups and making children resented by some.

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» RE: Values Children???? Posted by: drappleby
» RE: Values Children???? Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Values Children???? Posted by: Aussie Kim
Loki
Posted by: lokicat on Jul 21, 2006 12:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, what's with this vessel/vassel stuff? The writer uses the word "vessel" correctly, even though the original meaning is lost on most people. The early R.C. Church teaching and belief about conception involved a male planting his 'seed' in her empty 'womb' as already a fully formed tiny homoniculus (girl fetuses were 'misbegotten males').
The woman was not involved, and seen as just a 'vessel' and thus bound, supposedly, by God to carry and develop and give birth to his son. This was pre-Science. We, in ignorance, continue with the same incorrect notion: men=active principle; women=passive vessels, subject to male control (lawmakers, judges, church hierarchy). That's why so many rebarbative types are anti-abortion: the see women as having no mind of their own.

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fascism and the cult of motherhood
Posted by: jimsenter on Jul 22, 2006 4:21 AM   
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Authoritarian regimes have always tried to control women's sexuality by putting motherhood up on a pedestal. Praising mom's as if the only legitimate roll for women is a womb with legs. The eugenics breeding program with the SS in Nazi Germany is only the most extreme example. Motherhood is so important that the state has to get involved by passing laws to protect women (and let's not forget the unborn!) from their own stupidity. Danger Will Robinson!

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America's Taliban Support Non-smoking Laws
Posted by: justaperson on Jul 22, 2006 4:33 AM   
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Legislating what women can do while the big industrial tycoons continue to pollute the earth with waste from their corporations, while they continue to make gadzillions of dollars trafficking prescription drugs many people don't need, and all the time mouthing words like "health" and "public interest" have a lot of nerve.

Our legislators have begun to look like the Taliban to me. They are just a little too eager to dictate what women should or should not do.

Smoking is not good, but generations before us seemed somehow to live in a state that could not be deemed a condition worthy of incarcerating their mothers. This is a trendy thing. Fear-filled people who cannot feel safe in a world that has descended into craziness, rush toward anything that looks like a righteous solution to the worlds ills.

Smoking by individuals is one of the least concerns the people on earth should have right now.

How many kids are dying today in hospitals because of wars? How many are commiting suicide or taking drugs because our society has failed them? How many have fat-encased hearts because they have been told McDonald's is the funnest place on earth? How man are hooked on prescription drugs like Ritalin? If you're around a bunch of little kids today just notice how many have inhalers pushed up their noses. Notice how many are on addictive medications to help make them "good kids".

Our infant mortality rate is high, but factors like no access to health care and no money to buy a car to get to a doctor also affect infant health. Living in a family who has no money for food isn't exactly life affirming either.

I knew from the day they started this stupid campaign to wipe out smoking it was only the beginning.

There are Facists among us folks. In our Congress there are men who want to be like the Taliban and control everything we do. And the stats these people use are horribly screwed up.

Just think for a minute. Generations of people have been born and lived with smokers. They might or might not be as healthy as other people, but that depends on many factors. To be smoke free and obese is does not paint a rosey health picture. To be poor because your parents' jobs have been sucked overseas means your diet won't be healthy. And if your poor there probably isn't any health care available for your family anyway.

Naive, privileged people want to control everything we do because they haven't got enough sense to think things through. They are very simplistic. BIG government is always the agency fomenting these wars against our privacy and you can be sure folks that behind these campaigns there is some money making agenda.

This distraction with the little people makes citizens think they are helping the environment. Meanwhile the big pulluters continue to get expanded permissions from guys like Bush to increase industrial pollutant levels.

Don't tell me they give a damn about the unborn or the born. All they care about is M-O_N-E-Y. Do not be used by them. Look at the big issues.

No one should be allowed to jump on the bandwagon about laws prohibiting smoking until they have become very active in doing something about industrial and automotive pollution.

Maybe Congress should pass a law that until someone is riding a bike to work, feeding their kids a veggie diet, and have no trouble touching their toes, they shouldn't have kids?

The people in our government who whip up these fear-mongering campaigns are greedy cowards. They turn everyone's attention on indiviual women while the real polluters that they have invested heavily in go scot free.

They have the same mind set as the Taliban.

Don't support them.

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so what good are they?
Posted by: freemama on Jul 22, 2006 6:57 AM   
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"Oh, judge, your damn laws: the good people don't need them
and the bad people don't follow them so what good are they?"
Quote by: Ammon Hennacy
(1893-1970) Catholic anarchist, pacifist, vegetarian, draft refuser in two world wars, tax resister, "one-person revolution in America."

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Abject terror
Posted by: clzatzman on Jul 22, 2006 9:47 AM   
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I briefly read through some of the comments after this article, and those of you who are willing to jump on the bandwagon to proscribe activities of pregnant and nursing women in the name of health of the child -- you all need a wake-up call. You are willing to uphold laws that would criminalize smoking by a pregnant woman, because science supports the health risks to the fetus, and some uninformed fool talked about the children of smoking women needing growth hormones to avoid being midgets?????? I have 4 children, and (I'm not proud to say) I smoked at some point during all of those pregnancies. None of my children have any birth related abnormalities, and all are intellectually gifted. None of them are midgets, and two of them are above average height. None of them werre low birthweight -- in fact, all of them were well above the national average and one almost died in child birth because he was sooooo large. All of them were breastfed too, and none of them for less than 10 months. The longest was for 2 years.

You want to legislate what a pregnant woman, or nursing mothers, can and cannot do??? Be prepared then for this fascist government to tell you what YOU can and cannot do with your own body. You do not have a right to tell anyone else how to live, how to breathe, what to eat, when to eat it. And if you want to start telling other people what rights they have in regard to what they put in and take out from their own bodies, be prepared to sacrifice your own choices. THIS is the point: what goes around comes around. You want to enforce prohibitions or mandates on other people, you had better be prepared to accept them when they come back on you. The other choice is to tell the government to keep their laws off your body. Plain and simple.

Love and blessings,
Cindy

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Re-Read Margaret Atwood
Posted by: LynnZTV on Jul 22, 2006 10:32 AM   
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...and then ask yourself if it could happen here.
How terrifying. It is!

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Mother Blaming: Our National Hobby
Posted by: Marcy on Jul 22, 2006 1:15 PM   
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This comes as no big surprise. I became a mother over forty years ago, and the first thing I learned was that I got blamed by someone or other for virtually everything I did or did not do. I overfed, I underfed; I was overprotective, I was negligent--and on and on and on ad nauseum. Even now, at this late date, I've been judged for behaving in ways deemed "inappropriate" for a mother. When you put this pervasive cultural tendency to criticize mothers together with today's intolerance towards any kind of "impure" behavior, no matter how slight or dubious, and then throw in an atmosphere of obsessive child-centeredness--well then, you get a free-for all in which mothers are subject to intensive scrutiny and punishment. As bad as things were in the days when I was raising kids, I sure wouldn't rather be doing it now.

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Ban the whole kit and kaboodle
Posted by: popsicle67 on Jul 22, 2006 4:42 PM   
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I speak as a former smoker and I say they should just outright ban all smoking. Build new jails and prisons and throw the bastards in and throw away the keys. I am damn tired of the whining and carping about rights. The largest number of smokers are right on the verge of poverty, I've seen them. They can be found waiting in line at a food bank
chain smoking butts and bitching about how little they get in a food box these days. You say anything about quitting the cigarettes and you get everything from the brush of to open hostility. I always get the "I just can't seem to quit" line and it just bites my ass. I quit because I could see how it was affecting my family and how much money it was wasting so
I just want to slap those idiots who blame tobacco companies for their own stupidity. My dad still smokes after
50 years but now he goes outside to do it because I laid the law down about smoking around the kids. If it worked for me it'll work for the country. Just outlaw the damn things and be done with it.

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Arkansas? Where else?
Posted by: colinmeister on Jul 24, 2006 5:03 AM   
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The fact that this law has been proposed in Arkansas is no supprise. In the state of Arkansas over half the counties are "Dry", and do not allow bars, liquor stores, or restaurants to sell any alcohol whatsoever. Obviously the ban on prgnant women smoking is just another way for the state to control individual behaviour.

Of course pregnant women shouldn't smoke, but it would seem that law enforcement might just have a few more serious things to cosider than busting a pregnant woman for puffing on a cigarette. One also wonders why the jails in the state of Arkansas have enough room to accomodate these "criminals"?

All the comments about making smoking illegal are so much hot air. Lots of drugs are illegal, but that doesn't seem to stop people who are so inclined from taking them. Alcohol prohibition didn't stop people from drinking, but it did make Mr. Capone and his cohorts rich!

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