COMMENTS: 156
Middle East Violence: Neocons' Fantasy
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As Standard editor William Kristol puts it, "It's our war." America's, that is.
"What's under attack," Kristol argues "is liberal democratic civilization, whose leading representative right now happens to be the United States." The logical conclusion of this "war of civilizations" analysis is Kristol's advice to the Bush Administration: "our focus should be less on Hamas and Hezbollah, and more on their paymasters and real commanders -- Syria and Iran. And our focus should be not only on the regional war in the Middle East, but also on the global struggle against radical Islamism."
Progressives have no sympathy for radical Islamism, if that means those who have systematically denied the rights of women and gays, imprisoned those insisting on human rights and civil liberties, and sponsored campaigns of terror against civilians in Israel, Egypt, Jordan, India, Bali, Spain, England or anyplace else in the world.
But even many who might have forgotten the lesson before the Iraq war today rally around the cry to "Bring the troops home" rather than the neo-con appeal to extend the war into other nations. Most of us have come to the conclusion that violence is not the solution to our problems.
Which is why many of us have been sickened and saddened by the recent escalation of the struggle after Israel decided to use the capture of one of its soldiers by Hamas an an excuse to reenter Gaza and destroy its pathetic infrastructure. This punitive measure left one million of the world's poorest people, living in the world's most densely populated area, without electricity -- i.e., without refrigeration or water -- and can only be construed as an act of collective punishment for the deeds of a small group of people (the elected Hamas government which actually made a public plea for the release of the prisoner, though that did not prevent Israel from moving in and arresting a significant portion of the Hamas elected leadership).
Perhaps seeing the moment as one requiring solidarity, or perhaps instigated by its patrons in Syria and Iran, Hezbollah broke its previous pledge to respect the Israeli border, crossed it, killed a group of Israeli soldiers and captured two. In turn, Israel again resorted to collective punishment, holding much of the Lebanese civilian population responsible, bombing the civilian airport and many other civilian installations, and surprisingly finding that Hezbollah was able to respond with a barrage of missiles which killed and wounded Israelis in several northern cities.
It's ludicrous to try to establish "blame" in the sense of who did what first. Incidents of violence on the part of Palestinians and their allies cannot be separated from the constant violence of the Occupation, the continual kidnapping by the IDF of Palestinian civilians who are held in prison camps without charges or trial for as long as six months, often enduring torture as documented by the Israeli Human Rights Organization B'Tselem.
Nor can the violence of the Occupation be separated from the misguided policies of many Palestinians who have never been willing to unequivocally acknowledge the legitimacy and right of the Jewish people to the same kind of national self-determination in the land of Palestine that Palestinians rightly demand for themselves; nor from the equally misguided fantasy that peace and prosperity will come from violence rather than from the non-violent strategies used by Gandhi, MLK Jr., and Mandela in his later years.
In my books Healing Israel/Palestine (North Atlantic Books, 2003) and The Geneva Accord and Other Strategies for Middle East Peace (North Atlantic Books, 2004) I show that both sides have a legitimate narrative that needs to be heard and recognized by the other side; that neither side will ever prevail through violence, and that each side needs to acknowledge that it has been unreasonably cruel and insensitive to the needs of the other.
Yes, of course it's clear that in the last forty years Israel's had the upper hand and has used its power in an immoral way. But these are peoples with long historical memories, and Israeli partisans are as unlikely to convince Israelis whose families escaped oppression in Arab lands that there was no Arab oppression of Jews as Palestinian partisans are to convince the Palestinians that they never really lived in the homes in Palestine from which they were expelled by the wars from 1947-1967.
Nor are we likely to get to peace by trying to discount the fears of Israelis and Jews who face a stream of violence -- from terrorist attacks to Hamas-launched Qassam rockets to physical assaults on random Jewish people from Paris to Moscow -- than we are to convince Palestinians that Israel is merely being sensibly defensive and exercising its right to protect itself. These kinds of triumphalist narratives must be abandoned.
But they won't be as long as Bush and his advisors in the neo-con camp see in the current violence yet another opportunity to reframe the Middle East struggle as one that will provide ex post facto justification for the war in Iraq and enticement for new militarist adventures to destabilize or overthrow oppressive regimes in Iran and Syria.
Instead progressives need to begin with a new discourse, one that demands from both Israelis and Palestinians -- and their Arab supporters -- that they reject violence and crimes against humanity on all sides (e.g. Hezbollah's current bombing of civilians in Haifa and Tsfat as well as Israel's punishment of whole nations), and realize that their only path to peace is one that starts from a place of atonement for their own sins, and a new spirit of open-hearted generosity toward the other side, recognizing it as the only way that either side will achieve what they want in terms of social justice, peace and security.
But since there are no signs of this happening, in the short run we should be asking the international community to step in, impose a settlement on all sides that includes a return of Israel to its pre-67 borders with minor border changes (as defined in the Geneva Accord of 2003), reparations for Palestinian refugees and for Jews who fled Arab lands from 1948-1967, iron-clad security arrangements enforced by an armed international force on the restored borders, and a Truth and Reconciliation commission that is empowered to expose all acts of human rights violations on both sides -- and to impose punishment accordingly.
While partisans on all sides of this struggle must abandon their fantasy of ultimate justification of their claims, a clear first step is to dismiss the neo-con fantasy of a global war of civilizations, with its accompanying notion that this is the best way to reframe the globalization of capital and American corporate domination of the world as a path to expand democracy and human rights. That fantasy is dead -- the Iraq invasion and subsequent tragedy has removed it from any level of plausibility. Let's not let the neo-cons use the violence between Israel, Palestine and Lebanon as an excuse to try to revive that which ought to be put to eternal rest.
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Jul 17, 2006 1:54 AM
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This only reminds me more than ever how important it is that the progressive democrats take back control of the House and Senate in November. These people (the republiNeo-Cons) should not only be out of power, many of them, including George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, should be rotting in federal prison for the rest of their lives.
Think about how reckless this administration has been for the last five years in spite of the fact that they ALWAYS had a mid-term or general election ahead of them! Now just think about the damage they're going to do to this country if they retain power in November. As destructive of this nation and this planet as they have been when they had everything to lose, imagine what their behavior will be like when they have NOTHING TO LOSE.
Are you worried yet? Well you really should be.
The first order of buisness of the 110th Congress will have to be the impeachment of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and the tidal wave of human shit that comprises the Cheney administration (We might as well keep this honest, you know what I mean?).
Pray for peace.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
Tom Degan's Daily Rant
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» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: prod
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: deo508
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
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» RE: The Neo-Conzis - Bastardized Conservasaurus gives the troops the middle finger !
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» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: elmertwittle
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: deo508
» right on, deo508/tom degan
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» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
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» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: Ratskii
» Investigations first
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Investigations first
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Investigations first
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: FedererFan
» RE: The Neo-Conzis - One good rant deserves another
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Posted by: algodees on Jul 17, 2006 2:14 AM
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Posted by: wli on Jul 17, 2006 2:17 AM
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The rest is a matter of what "democracy" and "freedom" mean to the policy planners. An enlightening snippet is the following (Chomsky, "Democracy Enhancement"):
Recall the conclusion of Reaganite official Thomas Carothers, who recognizes that the "democracy enhancement" programs in which he was involved "inevitably sought only limited, top-down forms of democratic change that did not risk upsetting the traditional structures of power with which the United States has long been allied," maintaining "the basic order of...quite undemocratic societies" and avoiding "populist-based change" that might upset "established economic and political orders" and open "a leftist direction." Nothing has changed in this regard.
"Democracy" ultimately means that the forms and outward appearance of a democratic republic are to be maintained to defuse popular discontent, but only to the extent that such "traditional structures of power with which the United States has long been allied." The electoral structure itself is typically arranged to preserve them explicitly, much as the United States' was:
When the number of landholders shall be comparatively small ... will not the landed interest be overbalanced in future elections, and unless wisely provided against, what will become of your government? ... If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The senate, therefore, ought to be this body; and to answer these purposes, they ought to have permanency and stability.
James Madison, as cited in Robert Yates, Notes of the Secret Debates of the Federal Convention of 1787
"Freedom" in a similar fashion refers only to the "freedom" for wealth to translate to power. An individual has no rights except the right to what he can purchase according to such; witness equality before the law vs. bail, attorney's fees, and much more even within the US. "Freedom" furthermore is defined by such policy planners to mean the freedom of concentrated wealth from regulation by social policies such as taxation, no matter the decisions of the electorate. As Kissinger said,
I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.
The same holds for economic policy in general; such is to be decided by the WTO et al. Democratically accountable institutions are to be categorically excluded from decision-making power over such affairs. That's the meaning of "freedom."
The "permanent interests" in the Middle East must be "secured" against the "innovations" of their restive populations that might, say, sell oil to China instead of Europe or the West, embargo the US, nationalize their oil industries, exclude US oil companies from drilling contracts, or decide not to use the USD as their reserve currency. That's why the Middle East must be conquered.
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Jul 17, 2006 2:28 AM
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"WE MUST SAVE THE STATE OF ISRAEL"!!!
Wouldn't that just figure?
Tom Degan's Daily Rant
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» RE: Oh And by the way! sickofsleaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: Oh And by the way! What State
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Oh And by the way!
Posted by: Tia1965
» RE: Oh And by the way!
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Posted by: deo508 on Jul 17, 2006 3:51 AM
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We're Being Set Up for Wider War in the Middle East
by Paul Craig Roberts
The old adage, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" does not apply to Americans, who have shown that they can be endlessly fooled.
Neoconservatives deceived Americans into an illegal attack and debilitating war in Iraq. American neoconservatives are closely allied with Israel's Likud Party. In the past, some neocons lost their security clearances because of "mishandling" of classified information. According to Insight magazine, "the Pentagon has banned security clearance to Americans with relatives in Israel. Government sources and attorneys said the Pentagon has sought and succeeded in removing security clearance from dozens of Americans, mostly Jews, who either lived, worked, or have relatives in Israel."
Despite questions of dual loyalties, neocons hold high positions in the Bush regime. Ten years ago these architects of American foreign and military policy spelled out how they would use deception to achieve "important Israeli strategic objectives" in the Middle East. First, they would focus "on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq." This would open the door for Israel to provoke attacks from Hezbollah. The attacks would let Israel gain American sympathy and permit Israel to seize the strategic initiative by "engaging Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran as the principal agents of aggression in Lebanon."
from Pul Craig Roberts at Antiwar.com
There are resource available where people tell the inonvenient truth, only, you wont'e find them in the msm.
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Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jul 17, 2006 4:11 AM
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» RE: sickofsleaze
Posted by: shinseiji
» RE: Democrates aren't different
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: Alternet Trolls don't want you to vote for change.
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» RE: Alternet Trolls don't want you to vote for change.
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» RE: Alternet Trolls don't want you to vote for change.
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Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 17, 2006 4:18 AM
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» RE: the ones
Posted by: deo508
» RE: the ones
Posted by: 60yoh
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Posted by: mokidugway on Jul 17, 2006 4:36 AM
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It reminded me of an Jewish/Palestinian discussion group I attended right after the invasion of Iraq, in some naive attempt to understand why so many of the Jewish Americans I knew, otherwise liberal thinkers, were supportive of Bush's agenda.
I thought I would hear Jews and Palestinians debating middle eastern policy. But as it turns out, there were no Palestinians. "Where are the Palestinians?" I asked. There were various vague responses; clearly this question made the group uncomfortable. They explained to me that a debate forum was too alienating, and that instead one person would tell their story each week, and others would listen. A man spoke about instances of anti-semitism in the small town where he grew up. After the talk, a woman came up to me and told me that my anger--which she had sensed--was misplaced; it was really Bush I had a problem with.
I left the meeting feeling manipulated, depressed, and somehow vaguely ashamed. These were nice and well-meaning people, but they had hijacked the original purpose of the group (which had a website and stated objectives) to serve their own agenda, and they seemed genuinely unable to see what they had done.
This is a problem with the whole debate on the middle east. Americans can't seem to hear the Arab world; we can't seem to recognize that Palestinians have a voice. They have no real voice in this Lerner article, which seems even-handed but at one point excuses the Israelis as people "with long memories" and generally treats the two sides as bearing equal responsibility, even though one side has the disproportionate amount of resources, power, and strength--and is responsible for killing many more civilians, including children.
Have Americans made the Muslim world so angry that you will no longer talk to us, or have you given up hope that we can see and hear you?
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» well said
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: aurora2484
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: codingguy
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: codingguy
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: johnniewalker
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Posted by: IanA on Jul 17, 2006 4:38 AM
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Then, and only then, should the PA unilaterally decide how to deal with the Israeli community in order to achieve a viable and permanent resolution to the territorial issues, while prioritizing their own (Palestinian) security.
So if you think that is ridiculous and unfair to the state of Israel, why should it be acceptable to impose such a scenario on anyone else who seeks to live in peace in the area?
Finally in this asymmetric war, since it is considered reasonable by the Israeli and apparently the US administrations to destroy Beirut, to kill and punish innocent citizens of Lebanon, destroying their civilian infrastructure, in contravention of the Geneva Conventions and the Laws of War, all in retaliation for the just military operations of Hezbollah (just, because Hezbollah is fighting terrorism), it must be only “fair” to expect similar and like destruction in Washington and other major US cities. But, that would be considered as terrorism, would it not?
And, that would only help the Bush administration. This disproportionate agression and provocation is no doubt an attempt by Bush to expand the ME conflict to gain any excuse to use swift and decisive aggression also on Syria, and Iran anyway.
The war has started because governments of Israel and US are basing their power on ignorance, inequality, hate, fear, and the use of violence as a primary tool and they expect to maintain and strengthen their base by expanding these factors, while blaming “the other side” while expanding territorial hegemony and resource domination.
The key to this problem is the criminal Bush administration and the "we" referred to above are a bunch of bleating sheep, or are we?
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» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: colinmeister
» Typical rant
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: deo508
» Technically, they are occupied...
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Technically, they are occupied...
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» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: deo508
» Pandora's box
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» RE: Pandora's box
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: Pandora's box
Posted by: IanA
» RE: Pandora's box
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» RE: Pandora's box - syria-hezbollah
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: Pandora's box
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» RE: Pandora's box
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» RE: Pandora's box
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» RE: Pandora's box
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» RE: Pandora's box
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» Regarding the PNAC agenda
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: egarding the PNAC agenda
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» RE: egarding the PNAC agenda
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» RE: egarding the PNAC agenda
Posted by: IanA
» RE: MasterBlaster = Izrael as Master, America as Blaster.
Posted by: deo508
» RE: MasterBlaster = Izrael as Master, America as Blaster.
Posted by: 60yoh
» To be fair, before negotiating with the Israeli terrorist state ??
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: codingguy
» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: IanA
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Posted by: moontime on Jul 17, 2006 4:41 AM
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I hope you are right about the global empire dream being dead.
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» RE: The saddest thing to me...
Posted by: deo508
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Posted by: wawa on Jul 17, 2006 5:44 AM
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Israel’s human rights violations in the Gaza Strip and Lebanon are being committed with US weapons financed by US tax dollars!
The Israeli air force fighter squadrons are composed of Lockheed Martin F-16I Fighting Falcons and Boeing F-15Is, which fire US-manufactured AMRAAM, Sidewinder, and Sparrow missiles. From 2000-2005, the United States licensed to Israel at least $1.062 billion of spare parts, engines, and missiles for its F-15 and F-16 fighter planes.
From 2000-2005, the United States licensed to the Israeli navy more than $572 million worth of patrol boat, ship, and submarine components and spare parts, torpedoes, and sonar equipment.
From 2000-2005, the United States licensed to Israel more than $348 million worth of tanks, components, and spare parts.
From 2000-2005, the United States licensed to Israel $69,163 worth of M-109 spare parts and 155mm artillery shells.
Israel’s summer of killing civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure in the Gaza Strip is a clear reminder that Israel remains the occupying power of the Gaza Strip despite last year’s “unilateral disengagement”. Living under military occupation, the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip are “protected persons” under the terms of the Geneva Conventions. Israel’s targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure in the Gaza Strip and Lebanon is a violation of the Geneva Conventions and constitutes war crimes.
In addition, by using US-supplied weapons to commit these atrocities, Israel is violating the terms of the US Arms Export Control Act and Foreign Assistance Act. The Arms Export Control Act restricts the use of US weapons to legitimate self-defense and internal policing; US weapons cannot be used to attack civilians in offensive operations. The Foreign Assistance Act prohibits US aid of any kind to a country with a pattern of gross human rights violations.
DO SOMETHING! RISE UP and tell Bush what you think:
WHITE HOUSE COMMENTS LINE: 202-456-1111
WHITE HOUSE SWITCHBOARD: 202-456-1414
WHITE HOUSE FAX: 202-456-2461
"In the long run, there is no justice without FREEDOM. There can be no human rights without LIBERTY. All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know the United States will not ignore your oppression or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for liberty, we stand with you."-President George W. Bush, Second Inaugural Address
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» RE: Do Something!
Posted by: Tia1965
» RE: Do Something! sickofsleaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: Do Something!
Posted by: FedererFan
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 17, 2006 6:27 AM
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Funny he's a libertarian though he had to sit in as a Republican. Anyone from his district who can verify why he took GOP instead of done what Sanders did and stay independent?
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» RE: Sanders is a Socialist, Paul is a libertarian
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» RE: Sanders is a Socialist, Paul is a libertarian
Posted by: deo508
» The two could work out their differences at some point.
Posted by: maxpayne
» And one more thing, think hemp car.
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: cold2touch on Jul 17, 2006 6:32 AM
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Today they love Israel, not because they are Jews but because it is powerful, armed to the teeth and psychotic regime, built on 50 years of unceasing terror, oppression, theft and robbery. Their ilk loved Joe Stalin's Soviet Union and apartheid South Africa previously and no doubt Pol Pot's Cambodia as well. Because the present GOP and administration are thoroughly infested by homicidal maniacs like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush and DeLay, they see natural kinship and need for alliance but as soon as that ship springs holes (unless they plug them with more stolen elections), they will happily jump it and migrate under Hilary Clinton's stained dress.
They should be arrested and either tried for treason or sent to asylums for criminally insane.
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» RE: Neocons=psychopats
Posted by: particle
» RE: Neocons=psychopat(H)s
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Neocons=psychopat(H)s
Posted by: deo508
» RE: Neocons=psychopats
Posted by: FedererFan
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Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 17, 2006 6:38 AM
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Israel will soon push into Lebanon. It will also strike Syria. That will provoke both Iran and Hezbullah to launch multiple attacks into Israel. That in turn will bring greater response.
The US will then come in to help bomb Iran. I actually agree with all of this. It is time to finish this off and get some peace in the region and the world that can last fifty years. Once this campaign is over it will be time to re-visit all the international institutions and re-make them for the 21st century. We need the UN disbanded and replaced with a more effective international governing body.
We have shaped the battlefield, it is now time to start shaping the peace. Just like in the last years of WWII, the major powers started work on the global institutions, it is time to start actively discussing the new institutions to govern the world. I think this is the debate the left should be having.
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» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: shinseiji
» Hey, Shinseiji!!!
Posted by: FedererFan
» Are you insane!?!?!
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: madmac10
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: What can Left do
Posted by: cold2touch
» Well cold2touch,
Posted by: FedererFan
» RE: Well cold2touch,
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Well cold2touch,
Posted by: FedererFan
» Insane?
Posted by: particle
» RE: Insane?
Posted by: FedererFan
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: IanA
» RE: The first thing Bobsays said here that made any sense
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: codingguy
» RE:Umm, after the "campaign" you describe we'll be lucky to survive
Posted by: deo508
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: 60yoh
» RE: N.E.X.T. phase underway
Posted by: Bulldog
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Posted by: daw13 on Jul 17, 2006 6:50 AM
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From this point of view, as George Lakeoff said recently in a brilliant piece, the current US Incumbency has not been failing in its foreign policy. Where it has failed is in underestimating the ability of the Islamic Fundamentalist movement to produce effective response. It would appear that Hezbollah and Hamas may now be making common cause -- a significant development, since these groups have represented conflicting interests within the Arabic world. What it would mean is that Israel's old methodology of damaging assailants' home base in order to discourage support for them, is no longer feasible even as Machivellian strategy. Israel assailants' home base is now global, in all probability.
It serves Neocon interests for the only stability in the Middle East to remain a state of perpetual conflict. What this will mean for Israel is constant harrassment, the draining of energy and lives, sheer misery, slow death. What it will mean for Palestinians is less protection than ever from being employed only as mercenaries, a fate Arafat protected them from to a remarkable degree for years.
Lerner's view is accurate in some regards, but rather provincial in others. All warring parties in this conflict are merely pawns on the Grand Chessboard.
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» RE: The Grand Chessboard
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: The Grand Chessboard
Posted by: daw13
» RE: The Grand Chessboard. True, but Brzenski, like Fukuyama, has dencounced it
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 17, 2006 8:15 AM
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http://www.csgv.org/news/blog.cfm
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» RE: Israel might want to fight the NRA for working with Iran, Cuba, Syria, China, Egypt, and Russia
Posted by: deo508
» RE: Israel might want to fight the NRA for working with Iran, Cuba, Syria, China, Egypt, and Russia
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: Artaraxl on Jul 17, 2006 8:31 AM
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» RE: Please ignore graceless user of the royal "we"
Posted by: aurora2484
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Posted by: symcokid on Jul 17, 2006 8:56 AM
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Posted by: SufiLizard on Jul 17, 2006 10:25 AM
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It truly is all a pretty obvious move on the global chessboard.
That being said. Michael Lerner is still exactly right in how we need to respond to this. The leaders manipulating world events hold a lot of power, but we the people, ultimately, hold more if we're willing to wield it.
Last century's heroes like Ghandi, MLK, and Mandela proved that violence is powerless against vigilant people armed with love, compassion and truth.
It ain't easy, and it certainly takes a lot more courage from a lot more people than the path of violence and retaliation, but it is effective.
What's a chessmaster to do if the pieces refuse to move?
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Jul 17, 2006 10:44 AM
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Yea... right.
The USA can't, it simply doesn't have the ability to do so. It's delusional for the Neocons, and the Bush leadership, to even suggest this is so. Americas War? No, it's Israel breaking every law it can for the excuse to murder children in buses fleeing the bombing.
Nothing will happen, Israel and the USA will realize they can't do anything but murder people in or near Israel and sooner or later, once the current leaders go away or somehow realize they can't achieve thier mysterious goals, the diplomacy will kick in... and the thousands who died will have died for nothing. It's 1976 and 1982 all over again.
This is all just saber rattling by the USA and Israel. Kristol's goofy American War rhetoric is just the sort of fantasy world Americans are sold on. Funny, but if the USA does attack it will find itself in even faster decline as it's Empire over reaches itself. Considering the damage all this can do to America, and has already done, one has to wonder just what side the Neocons are on.
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» RE: Neocon Kristol is delusional...IF your viewpoint is that of...
Posted by: peridot
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Posted by: peridot on Jul 17, 2006 11:32 AM
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» Indeed
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: it is KRISTOL clear...
Posted by: deo508
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Posted by: xbj on Jul 17, 2006 11:33 AM
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That's the best thing anyone can say about the Neocons. Hope Wolfowitz has time to spit shine his hair before his head goes "plump" in the bucket. Hope Perle has time to put his TV makeup on, those bags under the eyes are looking pretty bad. Laura Bush will look very distinguished with snow white hair. Condi... no wait, I'm having a Sylvia Browne moment here... Condi doesn't make the party. I see her catching fire some distance away from one of the Chinese nukes and running for a bit.
Dubyah? Dubyah escapes, as usual. But dies a really slow agonizing death from a disease in his bowels. Probably colon cancer from all that stupid tobacco, with no treatment, in a cave. Much like Osama.
Cheney and Rove? Don't know exactly what it is, but know God is very creative and it's going to be very appropriately agonizing. Which, for them, will be only the beginning.
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» xbj, my nominee for Supreme Court
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: xbj, my nominee for Supreme Court
Posted by: xbj
» RE: The Best Thing You Can Say About The Neocons
Posted by: codingguy
» RE: The Best Thing You Can Say About The Neocons
Posted by: xbj
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Posted by: mysticw0lf on Jul 17, 2006 12:01 PM
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Posted by: chanceny on Jul 17, 2006 1:03 PM
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» RE: NDLESS ROAD TO NOWHERE
Posted by: xbj
» RE: NDLESS ROAD TO NOWHERE
Posted by: deo508
» RE: NDLESS ROAD TO NOWHERE
Posted by: xbj
» The military-industrial complex knows exactly where the road leads.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Jul 17, 2006 4:10 PM
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Next phase underway
Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 17, 2006 6:38 AM [Report this comment]
It has been well-known amongst members of the armed forces that the attack on Iran was scheduled for July this year. The only thing stopping it was the 'Gulf of Tonkin' moment. We have now had that.
Israel will soon push into Lebanon. It will also strike Syria. That will provoke both Iran and Hezbullah to launch multiple attacks into Israel. That in turn will bring greater response.
The US will then come in to help bomb Iran. I actually agree with all of this. It is time to finish this off and get some peace in the region and the world that can last fifty years. Once this campaign is over it will be time to re-visit all the international institutions and re-make them for the 21st century. We need the UN disbanded and replaced with a more effective international governing body.
We have shaped the battlefield, it is now time to start shaping the peace. Just like in the last years of WWII, the major powers started work on the global institutions, it is time to start actively discussing the new institutions to govern the world. I think this is the debate the left should be having.
Then, xbj gave us the most sensible activist solution to the problem:
RE: NDLESS ROAD TO NOWHERE
Posted by: xbj on Jul 17, 2006 1:58 PM [Report this comment]
We can't change the players in November. Not without tossing the Diebold and ES&S voting machines into Boston Harbor...
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» RE: The 2 most significant comments on this thread
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: The 2 most significant comments on this thread
Posted by: 60yoh
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Jul 17, 2006 4:42 PM
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wouldn't it be great if Bush shared his cell with Clinton.. it's only fitting since he WAS impeached and is a criminal... did we forget that small point???? *LOL* liberals are smart but have no memory...
This is just pathetic. You call this a troll? Kids stuff. I've been flame warring all over the Net since 2003 against neocon/faux conservative intrasigence and sky high strawmen... the tripe I read from the trolls on Alternet.org is just sad. Pathetic.
liberals are smart but have no memory...
What?
Look, we need new trolls. We need a better class of troll. Honestly, I just can't be bothered with such amateurish twaddle. I implore the current gang of trolls to either make a better effort or let some real trolls entertain me. Us, I mean us! Us, yes, well all deserve quality. ;p
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» RE: we need new trolls
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: New trolls are on the way. Just let the stem cells grow a little more
Posted by: cthelyt
» RE: we need new trolls
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: we need new trolls
Posted by: codingguy
» RE: we need new trolls
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: we need new trolls
Posted by: FedererFan
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Posted by: aurora2484 on Jul 17, 2006 4:49 PM
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www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706A.shtml
End the Suffering in the Middle East
By Rabbi Michael Lerner
Tikkun Sunday 16 July 2006
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» RE: "End the Suffering in the Middle East"
Posted by: cold2touch
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Jul 17, 2006 5:04 PM
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For wanting to fight the "terrorists", both countries have turned to the military to defeat a group of people who allegedly caused the World Trade Centers to burn and for the deaths of eight soldiers and kidnapping of two of its servicemen.
And what was the response? Force. And plenty of it. We've pretty much "shock and awe"-d the world of how we deal with problems and now as the U.S. twiddles its thumbs over how to deal with Israel's latest terrorist attack, Israel will find out later that military force will not solve your problems. How long were you in Lebanon, Israel? Eighteen years! But force is what the world understands.
Iraq and Afghanistan were singled out for what transpired on 9-11 and Lebanon is rapidly coming apart by Israeli bombs. If Israel dares to venture into the swamp of war they'll no doubt pull the Americans into it, since most of their military hardware is bought from us.
More than enough Iraqi, Afghani are dead from what happened on 9-11 and Israel's response to Hezbollah is to grind Lebanon's infrastructure to paste. So why punish the masses for the acts of a few?
Flattening Lebanon will not bring those two soldiers back home nor the current occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan will change what happened in New York in 2001.
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» Reminds me of my "punishing the entire class" teacher who got stoned eventually.
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: 1984NOW!!! on Jul 18, 2006 12:06 AM
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WAKE UP YOU MORON LEMMINGS After the destruction or your programmed Armageddon, JESUS AIN'T COMIN' TO YOUR DOOR, and THERE WILL BE NO RAPTURE,THERE WILL ONLY BE A BUNCH OF BURNED BODIES AND SMOLDERING DEBRIS.
Have a sense of fair play for God's sake, the comparitively infinitesimal MISDEMEANOR by Clinton verses the
high crimes of this administration is like saying that
your beloved SATAN is the same as your Jesus or God himself. If you were a juror, could you possibly decide on an equal sentence for the Clinton and Bush. If yes, you are not being an impartial juror.
TRY SOME LOGIC FOR A CHANGE YOU BUSHITE LEMMINGS OUT THERE. You must see the light if we are to ascend from this darkness that is enveloping all of us. I'm begging you.
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Posted by: abqbabe on Jul 19, 2006 1:36 PM
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"... that means those who have systematically denied the rights of women and gays, imprisoned those insisting on human rights and civil liberties, and sponsored campaigns of terror against civilians..."
I think that describes the United States pretty well these days. Neocons want to:
- limit birth control and abortion (a woman's right to her own body), as well as discriminatory employment pay rates;
- deny the dignity of civil union (marriage) and its economic benefits to gays;
- have harrassed and arrested peaceful political dissidents and protesters in this country;
- imprisoned suspect foreign nationals at Guantanamo defying the Geneva Convention for 5 years;
- and sponsored many campaigns of terror against civilians in other countries under the banner of "democracy".
Not to mention the number this Administration is doing on its' own citizens though the NSA, FBI and CIA invasive "security" programs, and effectively muzzling the media in the US so that it is impossible to know what is really going on by relying on the conventional press, radio and TV. And fixing the last two presidential elections.
Seems to me like the pot calling the kettle black...
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Posted by: shangrilalad on Jul 22, 2006 5:04 AM
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There are no true democracies in the world. Every country is ruled by a religious, military or economic elite, and no matter how they represent themselves, it all boils down to money and power. All wars, including holy wars and religious crusades are sold to the masses as self-defense to justify conquest for loot and power: treasure, territory, natural resources, etc.
The elites get the treasure and power, and the foot soldiers get the glory, (which lasts about fifteen minutes).
Israel and the United States have what scientists call a symbiotic relationship: “an interaction between two organisms living together in more or less intimate association or even the merging of two dissimilar organisms for mutual benefit. The term host is usually used for the larger (macro) of the two members of a symbiosis. The smaller (micro) member is called the symbiont.”
It is unclear who is the host and who is the symbiont in the US/Israeli relationship.
The actual glues that binds the US and Israel elite together is the Military Industrial Complex, a jointly owned, self-perpetuating commercial enterprise. The US gives Israel billions of dollars in aid every year, which Israel uses to feed the Military Industrial Complex.
Now, if you can admit that all wars, including holy wars and religious crusades are sold to the masses as self-defense to justify conquest for loot and power: treasure, territory, natural resources, etc, what do you think the war is really all about?
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» It's about the avoidance of change, especially social change.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: johnmccarthy on Jul 22, 2006 5:13 AM
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How long before the maggots intercourse in and out of their collective rotting corpses?
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» RE: john mccarthy
Posted by: FedererFan
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Posted by: saywhat on Jul 22, 2006 10:36 AM
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» RE: Neocons?
Posted by: peridot
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Posted by: LegumeSam on Jul 23, 2006 8:42 AM
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jul 23, 2006 3:34 PM
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Jul 17, 2006 1:54 AM
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This only reminds me more than ever how important it is that the progressive democrats take back control of the House and Senate in November. These people (the republiNeo-Cons) should not only be out of power, many of them, including George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, should be rotting in federal prison for the rest of their lives.
Think about how reckless this administration has been for the last five years in spite of the fact that they ALWAYS had a mid-term or general election ahead of them! Now just think about the damage they're going to do to this country if they retain power in November. As destructive of this nation and this planet as they have been when they had everything to lose, imagine what their behavior will be like when they have NOTHING TO LOSE.
Are you worried yet? Well you really should be.
The first order of buisness of the 110th Congress will have to be the impeachment of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and the tidal wave of human shit that comprises the Cheney administration (We might as well keep this honest, you know what I mean?).
Pray for peace.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
Tom Degan's Daily Rant
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» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: prod
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: deo508
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The Neo-Conzis - Bastardized Conservasaurus gives the troops the middle finger !
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: elmertwittle
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: deo508
» right on, deo508/tom degan
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: Ratskii
» Investigations first
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Investigations first
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Investigations first
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: The Neo-Conzis
Posted by: FedererFan
» RE: The Neo-Conzis - One good rant deserves another
Posted by: mysticw0lf
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Posted by: algodees on Jul 17, 2006 2:14 AM
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Posted by: wli on Jul 17, 2006 2:17 AM
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The rest is a matter of what "democracy" and "freedom" mean to the policy planners. An enlightening snippet is the following (Chomsky, "Democracy Enhancement"):
Recall the conclusion of Reaganite official Thomas Carothers, who recognizes that the "democracy enhancement" programs in which he was involved "inevitably sought only limited, top-down forms of democratic change that did not risk upsetting the traditional structures of power with which the United States has long been allied," maintaining "the basic order of...quite undemocratic societies" and avoiding "populist-based change" that might upset "established economic and political orders" and open "a leftist direction." Nothing has changed in this regard.
"Democracy" ultimately means that the forms and outward appearance of a democratic republic are to be maintained to defuse popular discontent, but only to the extent that such "traditional structures of power with which the United States has long been allied." The electoral structure itself is typically arranged to preserve them explicitly, much as the United States' was:
When the number of landholders shall be comparatively small ... will not the landed interest be overbalanced in future elections, and unless wisely provided against, what will become of your government? ... If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The senate, therefore, ought to be this body; and to answer these purposes, they ought to have permanency and stability.
James Madison, as cited in Robert Yates, Notes of the Secret Debates of the Federal Convention of 1787
"Freedom" in a similar fashion refers only to the "freedom" for wealth to translate to power. An individual has no rights except the right to what he can purchase according to such; witness equality before the law vs. bail, attorney's fees, and much more even within the US. "Freedom" furthermore is defined by such policy planners to mean the freedom of concentrated wealth from regulation by social policies such as taxation, no matter the decisions of the electorate. As Kissinger said,
I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.
The same holds for economic policy in general; such is to be decided by the WTO et al. Democratically accountable institutions are to be categorically excluded from decision-making power over such affairs. That's the meaning of "freedom."
The "permanent interests" in the Middle East must be "secured" against the "innovations" of their restive populations that might, say, sell oil to China instead of Europe or the West, embargo the US, nationalize their oil industries, exclude US oil companies from drilling contracts, or decide not to use the USD as their reserve currency. That's why the Middle East must be conquered.
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Jul 17, 2006 2:28 AM
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"WE MUST SAVE THE STATE OF ISRAEL"!!!
Wouldn't that just figure?
Tom Degan's Daily Rant
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» RE: Oh And by the way! sickofsleaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: Oh And by the way! What State
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Oh And by the way!
Posted by: Tia1965
» RE: Oh And by the way!
Posted by: deo508
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Posted by: deo508 on Jul 17, 2006 3:51 AM
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We're Being Set Up for Wider War in the Middle East
by Paul Craig Roberts
The old adage, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" does not apply to Americans, who have shown that they can be endlessly fooled.
Neoconservatives deceived Americans into an illegal attack and debilitating war in Iraq. American neoconservatives are closely allied with Israel's Likud Party. In the past, some neocons lost their security clearances because of "mishandling" of classified information. According to Insight magazine, "the Pentagon has banned security clearance to Americans with relatives in Israel. Government sources and attorneys said the Pentagon has sought and succeeded in removing security clearance from dozens of Americans, mostly Jews, who either lived, worked, or have relatives in Israel."
Despite questions of dual loyalties, neocons hold high positions in the Bush regime. Ten years ago these architects of American foreign and military policy spelled out how they would use deception to achieve "important Israeli strategic objectives" in the Middle East. First, they would focus "on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq." This would open the door for Israel to provoke attacks from Hezbollah. The attacks would let Israel gain American sympathy and permit Israel to seize the strategic initiative by "engaging Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran as the principal agents of aggression in Lebanon."
from Pul Craig Roberts at Antiwar.com
There are resource available where people tell the inonvenient truth, only, you wont'e find them in the msm.
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Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jul 17, 2006 4:11 AM
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» RE: sickofsleaze
Posted by: shinseiji
» RE: Democrates aren't different
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: Alternet Trolls don't want you to vote for change.
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» RE: Alternet Trolls don't want you to vote for change.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Alternet Trolls don't want you to vote for change.
Posted by: wli
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Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 17, 2006 4:18 AM
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» RE: the ones
Posted by: deo508
» RE: the ones
Posted by: 60yoh
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Posted by: mokidugway on Jul 17, 2006 4:36 AM
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It reminded me of an Jewish/Palestinian discussion group I attended right after the invasion of Iraq, in some naive attempt to understand why so many of the Jewish Americans I knew, otherwise liberal thinkers, were supportive of Bush's agenda.
I thought I would hear Jews and Palestinians debating middle eastern policy. But as it turns out, there were no Palestinians. "Where are the Palestinians?" I asked. There were various vague responses; clearly this question made the group uncomfortable. They explained to me that a debate forum was too alienating, and that instead one person would tell their story each week, and others would listen. A man spoke about instances of anti-semitism in the small town where he grew up. After the talk, a woman came up to me and told me that my anger--which she had sensed--was misplaced; it was really Bush I had a problem with.
I left the meeting feeling manipulated, depressed, and somehow vaguely ashamed. These were nice and well-meaning people, but they had hijacked the original purpose of the group (which had a website and stated objectives) to serve their own agenda, and they seemed genuinely unable to see what they had done.
This is a problem with the whole debate on the middle east. Americans can't seem to hear the Arab world; we can't seem to recognize that Palestinians have a voice. They have no real voice in this Lerner article, which seems even-handed but at one point excuses the Israelis as people "with long memories" and generally treats the two sides as bearing equal responsibility, even though one side has the disproportionate amount of resources, power, and strength--and is responsible for killing many more civilians, including children.
Have Americans made the Muslim world so angry that you will no longer talk to us, or have you given up hope that we can see and hear you?
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» well said
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: aurora2484
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: codingguy
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: codingguy
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Where are the Palestinians?
Posted by: johnniewalker
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Posted by: IanA on Jul 17, 2006 4:38 AM
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Then, and only then, should the PA unilaterally decide how to deal with the Israeli community in order to achieve a viable and permanent resolution to the territorial issues, while prioritizing their own (Palestinian) security.
So if you think that is ridiculous and unfair to the state of Israel, why should it be acceptable to impose such a scenario on anyone else who seeks to live in peace in the area?
Finally in this asymmetric war, since it is considered reasonable by the Israeli and apparently the US administrations to destroy Beirut, to kill and punish innocent citizens of Lebanon, destroying their civilian infrastructure, in contravention of the Geneva Conventions and the Laws of War, all in retaliation for the just military operations of Hezbollah (just, because Hezbollah is fighting terrorism), it must be only “fair” to expect similar and like destruction in Washington and other major US cities. But, that would be considered as terrorism, would it not?
And, that would only help the Bush administration. This disproportionate agression and provocation is no doubt an attempt by Bush to expand the ME conflict to gain any excuse to use swift and decisive aggression also on Syria, and Iran anyway.
The war has started because governments of Israel and US are basing their power on ignorance, inequality, hate, fear, and the use of violence as a primary tool and they expect to maintain and strengthen their base by expanding these factors, while blaming “the other side” while expanding territorial hegemony and resource domination.
The key to this problem is the criminal Bush administration and the "we" referred to above are a bunch of bleating sheep, or are we?
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» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: colinmeister
» Typical rant
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: deo508
» Technically, they are occupied...
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Technically, they are occupied...
Posted by: deo508
» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: deo508
» Pandora's box
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Pandora's box
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: Pandora's box
Posted by: IanA
» RE: Pandora's box
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Pandora's box - syria-hezbollah
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: Pandora's box
Posted by: IanA
» RE: Pandora's box
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Pandora's box
Posted by: IanA
» RE: Pandora's box
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Pandora's box
Posted by: IanA
» Regarding the PNAC agenda
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: egarding the PNAC agenda
Posted by: IanA
» RE: egarding the PNAC agenda
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: egarding the PNAC agenda
Posted by: IanA
» RE: MasterBlaster = Izrael as Master, America as Blaster.
Posted by: deo508
» RE: MasterBlaster = Izrael as Master, America as Blaster.
Posted by: 60yoh
» To be fair, before negotiating with the Israeli terrorist state ??
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: codingguy
» RE: To be Fair....
Posted by: IanA
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Posted by: moontime on Jul 17, 2006 4:41 AM
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I hope you are right about the global empire dream being dead.
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» RE: The saddest thing to me...
Posted by: deo508
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Posted by: wawa on Jul 17, 2006 5:44 AM
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Israel’s human rights violations in the Gaza Strip and Lebanon are being committed with US weapons financed by US tax dollars!
The Israeli air force fighter squadrons are composed of Lockheed Martin F-16I Fighting Falcons and Boeing F-15Is, which fire US-manufactured AMRAAM, Sidewinder, and Sparrow missiles. From 2000-2005, the United States licensed to Israel at least $1.062 billion of spare parts, engines, and missiles for its F-15 and F-16 fighter planes.
From 2000-2005, the United States licensed to the Israeli navy more than $572 million worth of patrol boat, ship, and submarine components and spare parts, torpedoes, and sonar equipment.
From 2000-2005, the United States licensed to Israel more than $348 million worth of tanks, components, and spare parts.
From 2000-2005, the United States licensed to Israel $69,163 worth of M-109 spare parts and 155mm artillery shells.
Israel’s summer of killing civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure in the Gaza Strip is a clear reminder that Israel remains the occupying power of the Gaza Strip despite last year’s “unilateral disengagement”. Living under military occupation, the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip are “protected persons” under the terms of the Geneva Conventions. Israel’s targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure in the Gaza Strip and Lebanon is a violation of the Geneva Conventions and constitutes war crimes.
In addition, by using US-supplied weapons to commit these atrocities, Israel is violating the terms of the US Arms Export Control Act and Foreign Assistance Act. The Arms Export Control Act restricts the use of US weapons to legitimate self-defense and internal policing; US weapons cannot be used to attack civilians in offensive operations. The Foreign Assistance Act prohibits US aid of any kind to a country with a pattern of gross human rights violations.
DO SOMETHING! RISE UP and tell Bush what you think:
WHITE HOUSE COMMENTS LINE: 202-456-1111
WHITE HOUSE SWITCHBOARD: 202-456-1414
WHITE HOUSE FAX: 202-456-2461
"In the long run, there is no justice without FREEDOM. There can be no human rights without LIBERTY. All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know the United States will not ignore your oppression or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for liberty, we stand with you."-President George W. Bush, Second Inaugural Address
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» RE: Do Something!
Posted by: Tia1965
» RE: Do Something! sickofsleaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: Do Something!
Posted by: FedererFan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 17, 2006 6:27 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Funny he's a libertarian though he had to sit in as a Republican. Anyone from his district who can verify why he took GOP instead of done what Sanders did and stay independent?
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» RE: Sanders is a Socialist, Paul is a libertarian
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» RE: Sanders is a Socialist, Paul is a libertarian
Posted by: deo508
» The two could work out their differences at some point.
Posted by: maxpayne
» And one more thing, think hemp car.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cold2touch on Jul 17, 2006 6:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Today they love Israel, not because they are Jews but because it is powerful, armed to the teeth and psychotic regime, built on 50 years of unceasing terror, oppression, theft and robbery. Their ilk loved Joe Stalin's Soviet Union and apartheid South Africa previously and no doubt Pol Pot's Cambodia as well. Because the present GOP and administration are thoroughly infested by homicidal maniacs like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush and DeLay, they see natural kinship and need for alliance but as soon as that ship springs holes (unless they plug them with more stolen elections), they will happily jump it and migrate under Hilary Clinton's stained dress.
They should be arrested and either tried for treason or sent to asylums for criminally insane.
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» RE: Neocons=psychopats
Posted by: particle
» RE: Neocons=psychopat(H)s
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Neocons=psychopat(H)s
Posted by: deo508
» RE: Neocons=psychopats
Posted by: FedererFan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 17, 2006 6:38 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel will soon push into Lebanon. It will also strike Syria. That will provoke both Iran and Hezbullah to launch multiple attacks into Israel. That in turn will bring greater response.
The US will then come in to help bomb Iran. I actually agree with all of this. It is time to finish this off and get some peace in the region and the world that can last fifty years. Once this campaign is over it will be time to re-visit all the international institutions and re-make them for the 21st century. We need the UN disbanded and replaced with a more effective international governing body.
We have shaped the battlefield, it is now time to start shaping the peace. Just like in the last years of WWII, the major powers started work on the global institutions, it is time to start actively discussing the new institutions to govern the world. I think this is the debate the left should be having.
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» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: shinseiji
» Hey, Shinseiji!!!
Posted by: FedererFan
» Are you insane!?!?!
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: madmac10
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: What can Left do
Posted by: cold2touch
» Well cold2touch,
Posted by: FedererFan
» RE: Well cold2touch,
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Well cold2touch,
Posted by: FedererFan
» Insane?
Posted by: particle
» RE: Insane?
Posted by: FedererFan
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: IanA
» RE: The first thing Bobsays said here that made any sense
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: codingguy
» RE:Umm, after the "campaign" you describe we'll be lucky to survive
Posted by: deo508
» RE: Next phase underway
Posted by: 60yoh
» RE: N.E.X.T. phase underway
Posted by: Bulldog
Comments are closed-
Posted by: daw13 on Jul 17, 2006 6:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From this point of view, as George Lakeoff said recently in a brilliant piece, the current US Incumbency has not been failing in its foreign policy. Where it has failed is in underestimating the ability of the Islamic Fundamentalist movement to produce effective response. It would appear that Hezbollah and Hamas may now be making common cause -- a significant development, since these groups have represented conflicting interests within the Arabic world. What it would mean is that Israel's old methodology of damaging assailants' home base in order to discourage support for them, is no longer feasible even as Machivellian strategy. Israel assailants' home base is now global, in all probability.
It serves Neocon interests for the only stability in the Middle East to remain a state of perpetual conflict. What this will mean for Israel is constant harrassment, the draining of energy and lives, sheer misery, slow death. What it will mean for Palestinians is less protection than ever from being employed only as mercenaries, a fate Arafat protected them from to a remarkable degree for years.
Lerner's view is accurate in some regards, but rather provincial in others. All warring parties in this conflict are merely pawns on the Grand Chessboard.
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» RE: The Grand Chessboard
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: The Grand Chessboard
Posted by: daw13
» RE: The Grand Chessboard. True, but Brzenski, like Fukuyama, has dencounced it
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 17, 2006 8:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.csgv.org/news/blog.cfm
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» RE: Israel might want to fight the NRA for working with Iran, Cuba, Syria, China, Egypt, and Russia
Posted by: deo508
» RE: Israel might want to fight the NRA for working with Iran, Cuba, Syria, China, Egypt, and Russia
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Artaraxl on Jul 17, 2006 8:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Please ignore graceless user of the royal "we"
Posted by: aurora2484
Comments are closed-
Posted by: symcokid on Jul 17, 2006 8:56 AM
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Posted by: SufiLizard on Jul 17, 2006 10:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It truly is all a pretty obvious move on the global chessboard.
That being said. Michael Lerner is still exactly right in how we need to respond to this. The leaders manipulating world events hold a lot of power, but we the people, ultimately, hold more if we're willing to wield it.
Last century's heroes like Ghandi, MLK, and Mandela proved that violence is powerless against vigilant people armed with love, compassion and truth.
It ain't easy, and it certainly takes a lot more courage from a lot more people than the path of violence and retaliation, but it is effective.
What's a chessmaster to do if the pieces refuse to move?
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Jul 17, 2006 10:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yea... right.
The USA can't, it simply doesn't have the ability to do so. It's delusional for the Neocons, and the Bush leadership, to even suggest this is so. Americas War? No, it's Israel breaking every law it can for the excuse to murder children in buses fleeing the bombing.
Nothing will happen, Israel and the USA will realize they can't do anything but murder people in or near Israel and sooner or later, once the current leaders go away or somehow realize they can't achieve thier mysterious goals, the diplomacy will kick in... and the thousands who died will have died for nothing. It's 1976 and 1982 all over again.
This is all just saber rattling by the USA and Israel. Kristol's goofy American War rhetoric is just the sort of fantasy world Americans are sold on. Funny, but if the USA does attack it will find itself in even faster decline as it's Empire over reaches itself. Considering the damage all this can do to America, and has already done, one has to wonder just what side the Neocons are on.
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» RE: Neocon Kristol is delusional...IF your viewpoint is that of...
Posted by: peridot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peridot on Jul 17, 2006 11:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Indeed
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: it is KRISTOL clear...
Posted by: deo508
Comments are closed-
Posted by: xbj on Jul 17, 2006 11:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's the best thing anyone can say about the Neocons. Hope Wolfowitz has time to spit shine his hair before his head goes "plump" in the bucket. Hope Perle has time to put his TV makeup on, those bags under the eyes are looking pretty bad. Laura Bush will look very distinguished with snow white hair. Condi... no wait, I'm having a Sylvia Browne moment here... Condi doesn't make the party. I see her catching fire some distance away from one of the Chinese nukes and running for a bit.
Dubyah? Dubyah escapes, as usual. But dies a really slow agonizing death from a disease in his bowels. Probably colon cancer from all that stupid tobacco, with no treatment, in a cave. Much like Osama.
Cheney and Rove? Don't know exactly what it is, but know God is very creative and it's going to be very appropriately agonizing. Which, for them, will be only the beginning.
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» xbj, my nominee for Supreme Court
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: xbj, my nominee for Supreme Court
Posted by: xbj
» RE: The Best Thing You Can Say About The Neocons
Posted by: codingguy
» RE: The Best Thing You Can Say About The Neocons
Posted by: xbj
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mysticw0lf on Jul 17, 2006 12:01 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: chanceny on Jul 17, 2006 1:03 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: NDLESS ROAD TO NOWHERE
Posted by: xbj
» RE: NDLESS ROAD TO NOWHERE
Posted by: deo508
» RE: NDLESS ROAD TO NOWHERE
Posted by: xbj
» The military-industrial complex knows exactly where the road leads.
Posted by: Sojourner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Jul 17, 2006 4:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Next phase underway
Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 17, 2006 6:38 AM [Report this comment]
It has been well-known amongst members of the armed forces that the attack on Iran was scheduled for July this year. The only thing stopping it was the 'Gulf of Tonkin' moment. We have now had that.
Israel will soon push into Lebanon. It will also strike Syria. That will provoke both Iran and Hezbullah to launch multiple attacks into Israel. That in turn will bring greater response.
The US will then come in to help bomb Iran. I actually agree with all of this. It is time to finish this off and get some peace in the region and the world that can last fifty years. Once this campaign is over it will be time to re-visit all the international institutions and re-make them for the 21st century. We need the UN disbanded and replaced with a more effective international governing body.
We have shaped the battlefield, it is now time to start shaping the peace. Just like in the last years of WWII, the major powers started work on the global institutions, it is time to start actively discussing the new institutions to govern the world. I think this is the debate the left should be having.
Then, xbj gave us the most sensible activist solution to the problem:
RE: NDLESS ROAD TO NOWHERE
Posted by: xbj on Jul 17, 2006 1:58 PM [Report this comment]
We can't change the players in November. Not without tossing the Diebold and ES&S voting machines into Boston Harbor...
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» RE: The 2 most significant comments on this thread
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: The 2 most significant comments on this thread
Posted by: 60yoh
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ghoulman on Jul 17, 2006 4:42 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
wouldn't it be great if Bush shared his cell with Clinton.. it's only fitting since he WAS impeached and is a criminal... did we forget that small point???? *LOL* liberals are smart but have no memory...
This is just pathetic. You call this a troll? Kids stuff. I've been flame warring all over the Net since 2003 against neocon/faux conservative intrasigence and sky high strawmen... the tripe I read from the trolls on Alternet.org is just sad. Pathetic.
liberals are smart but have no memory...
What?
Look, we need new trolls. We need a better class of troll. Honestly, I just can't be bothered with such amateurish twaddle. I implore the current gang of trolls to either make a better effort or let some real trolls entertain me. Us, I mean us! Us, yes, well all deserve quality. ;p
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» RE: we need new trolls
Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: New trolls are on the way. Just let the stem cells grow a little more
Posted by: cthelyt
» RE: we need new trolls
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: we need new trolls
Posted by: codingguy
» RE: we need new trolls
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: we need new trolls
Posted by: FedererFan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: aurora2484 on Jul 17, 2006 4:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706A.shtml
End the Suffering in the Middle East
By Rabbi Michael Lerner
Tikkun Sunday 16 July 2006
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» RE: "End the Suffering in the Middle East"
Posted by: cold2touch
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Jul 17, 2006 5:04 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For wanting to fight the "terrorists", both countries have turned to the military to defeat a group of people who allegedly caused the World Trade Centers to burn and for the deaths of eight soldiers and kidnapping of two of its servicemen.
And what was the response? Force. And plenty of it. We've pretty much "shock and awe"-d the world of how we deal with problems and now as the U.S. twiddles its thumbs over how to deal with Israel's latest terrorist attack, Israel will find out later that military force will not solve your problems. How long were you in Lebanon, Israel? Eighteen years! But force is what the world understands.
Iraq and Afghanistan were singled out for what transpired on 9-11 and Lebanon is rapidly coming apart by Israeli bombs. If Israel dares to venture into the swamp of war they'll no doubt pull the Americans into it, since most of their military hardware is bought from us.
More than enough Iraqi, Afghani are dead from what happened on 9-11 and Israel's response to Hezbollah is to grind Lebanon's infrastructure to paste. So why punish the masses for the acts of a few?
Flattening Lebanon will not bring those two soldiers back home nor the current occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan will change what happened in New York in 2001.
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» Reminds me of my "punishing the entire class" teacher who got stoned eventually.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 1984NOW!!! on Jul 18, 2006 12:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WAKE UP YOU MORON LEMMINGS After the destruction or your programmed Armageddon, JESUS AIN'T COMIN' TO YOUR DOOR, and THERE WILL BE NO RAPTURE,THERE WILL ONLY BE A BUNCH OF BURNED BODIES AND SMOLDERING DEBRIS.
Have a sense of fair play for God's sake, the comparitively infinitesimal MISDEMEANOR by Clinton verses the
high crimes of this administration is like saying that
your beloved SATAN is the same as your Jesus or God himself. If you were a juror, could you possibly decide on an equal sentence for the Clinton and Bush. If yes, you are not being an impartial juror.
TRY SOME LOGIC FOR A CHANGE YOU BUSHITE LEMMINGS OUT THERE. You must see the light if we are to ascend from this darkness that is enveloping all of us. I'm begging you.
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Posted by: abqbabe on Jul 19, 2006 1:36 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"... that means those who have systematically denied the rights of women and gays, imprisoned those insisting on human rights and civil liberties, and sponsored campaigns of terror against civilians..."
I think that describes the United States pretty well these days. Neocons want to:
- limit birth control and abortion (a woman's right to her own body), as well as discriminatory employment pay rates;
- deny the dignity of civil union (marriage) and its economic benefits to gays;
- have harrassed and arrested peaceful political dissidents and protesters in this country;
- imprisoned suspect foreign nationals at Guantanamo defying the Geneva Convention for 5 years;
- and sponsored many campaigns of terror against civilians in other countries under the banner of "democracy".
Not to mention the number this Administration is doing on its' own citizens though the NSA, FBI and CIA invasive "security" programs, and effectively muzzling the media in the US so that it is impossible to know what is really going on by relying on the conventional press, radio and TV. And fixing the last two presidential elections.
Seems to me like the pot calling the kettle black...
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Posted by: shangrilalad on Jul 22, 2006 5:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are no true democracies in the world. Every country is ruled by a religious, military or economic elite, and no matter how they represent themselves, it all boils down to money and power. All wars, including holy wars and religious crusades are sold to the masses as self-defense to justify conquest for loot and power: treasure, territory, natural resources, etc.
The elites get the treasure and power, and the foot soldiers get the glory, (which lasts about fifteen minutes).
Israel and the United States have what scientists call a symbiotic relationship: “an interaction between two organisms living together in more or less intimate association or even the merging of two dissimilar organisms for mutual benefit. The term host is usually used for the larger (macro) of the two members of a symbiosis. The smaller (micro) member is called the symbiont.”
It is unclear who is the host and who is the symbiont in the US/Israeli relationship.
The actual glues that binds the US and Israel elite together is the Military Industrial Complex, a jointly owned, self-perpetuating commercial enterprise. The US gives Israel billions of dollars in aid every year, which Israel uses to feed the Military Industrial Complex.
Now, if you can admit that all wars, including holy wars and religious crusades are sold to the masses as self-defense to justify conquest for loot and power: treasure, territory, natural resources, etc, what do you think the war is really all about?
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» It's about the avoidance of change, especially social change.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: johnmccarthy on Jul 22, 2006 5:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How long before the maggots intercourse in and out of their collective rotting corpses?
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» RE: john mccarthy
Posted by: FedererFan
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Posted by: saywhat on Jul 22, 2006 10:36 AM
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» RE: Neocons?
Posted by: peridot
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Posted by: LegumeSam on Jul 23, 2006 8:42 AM
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jul 23, 2006 3:34 PM
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