A quick definition can be found at the wikipedia article on clerical fascism.

The alarm had been sounding nonstop since the first Red Scare in 1917 but was melted into silence by the raging flames. The US' right wing, for instance, has even developed its own Vietnam War Dolchstoßlegende literally based on nothing more than the Rambo novel and movie. Christian zealots and neo-Nazis have mass infiltrated the military to the point Jews are forced to flee military academies and white supremacists are stocking up on military weaponry smuggled out from Iraq, generals are proclaiming George W. Bush to be ordained by God (his most inflammatory quotes seem to have been purged or censored -- sorry), and there's no effective opposition to any of this.

Saying "it's going to get worse before it gets better" is like saying Iran will eventually move away from a religious fundamentalist theocracy in 1979. You need to get it through your thick heads: this can easily last for centuries and will most likely outlive you. The US government was overthrown outright in the 2000 judicial coup d'etat, not that it was particularly clean before then (c.f. 1876 if nothing else). You don't get your government or country back by voting. You don't get it back at all.

IMNSHO this is not merely the downfall of the US into Iranian-flavored Christian theocracy. This is the beginning of a new Dark Age. The US is far from the only nominal democracy falling into the clutches of authoritarianism; the entire Anglosphere is marching in lockstep with their police state measures and the rest of the so-called "free world" is only a few steps behind, all this in the face of the rather fervent opposition of their constituencies. All questions are answered with force; all debate is one-sided. Rationality itself is repudiated the world over.

(Those familiar with Cold War espionage will likely understand why which countries went along and when.)

The world is on fire. The houses of freedom are all burning into the night. The Enlightenment is over. This New Dark Age will last as long as the reigns of the pharaohs in Egypt and the kings of medieval Europe. If you dare ask why, I will explain to you how ideas and ideologies are killed.

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Nowhere does Goldberg even mention the fact that religious people used to play a large role in leftist politics, and that the secular left walked away from that. Also missing is an understanding of just how lazy the left, both religious and secular, has been over the last thirty years, both in institution-building and in grass roots organizing. The "ground war" of politics has been largely ceded to the right, and we have put way too much trust in large foundations putting out position papers, in groups like the Sierra Club, and in national elections.

Scorn of leftist Christians is rampant from all sides, and yet these were some of the heroes of our past (MLK, Dorothy Day, the Berrigans, the Sanctuary Movement during the Central American terror wars). It's fine for people like Goldberg to point out how scary the beliefs and political success of the "Christian" right are, but it's not of any use tactically. I have seen very few signs that the non-Christian left has any interest in working with Christians who share their social values.

On the other hand, the right wing push in churches is actually largely spent, as Goldberg would know if she were truly immersed in what's going on out there. Those churches aren't going to disappear, and their hateful rhetoric and political acitvities need to be dealt with in the political sphere. But the new growth, and the new thinking, is all moving left, on issues from the environment to social justice.

In general, Christians in America are just as diverse and divided politically as the rest of the country. The difference is that the GOP has learned the value of welcoming right-wing religious people into their efforts. When people like Jim Wallis and the folks at Tikkun, suggest the left do likewise, they are met with patronizing scorn for the most part. And so the left loses a huge chunk of its potential local network.

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the U.S. is a Christian nation that isn't supposed to be. According to the Constitution, there's supposed to be religious freedom and separation of church and state. However, a majority of people in this country are Christian, and many of them believe that it is their duty to live according to their god's law above U.S. law. But that can sometimes get people thrown in jail. So they try to change U.S. law to coincide with religious law. Democrats should be appalled at this, but a majority of democrats are also Christians, and there are many issues where they agree with the religious right. There are many people who consider themselves to be democrats that also think homosexuality is a sin, and so believe homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry. So the real problem (as I've said before) is that there is a Christian majority. As long as there are conservatives and liberals who have a mutual distaste for non-Christians or the non-religious, then there cannot be a solution to this problem.

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The pledge of alliegence is a loyalty oath. The addition of God to it makes it even more of a disgrace. It is said with the right arm extended in a fascist salute.

The real danger of the religious right is its connection with Zionism. It is the Zionists who are antisemitic. Their attack on the Arabs is racist and antisemitic because Arabs are semites. The United States of Israel
Israel is very concerned about Hezbollah getting rockets from Iran but nobody asks where a country the size of New Jersey gets their tanks, planes, artillery, and over 700 atomic bombs from. The answer is that they buy them from the United States with the billions of dollars they get from the United States. Like Haliburton who gets billion dollar no-bid contracts from the United States, they can afford to spend the money because it comes from the United States taxpayer anyway. The AARP or American Association of Retired People have a big lobby in Washington, but AIPAC, the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee lobby is bigger. Where does the money come from to spend buying Congressmen? The answer is that the congressmen have just passed an appropriation bill giving Israel 3 billion dollars. They have received 140 billion over the past fifty years.

Over 89% of American Jews vote Democratic. The vast majority of American Jews opposed the Iraq war, (more were against it than in the general population) and American Jews have been enormously important in securing civil liberties for all Americans. But the ruling party in Israel is the Likud and they use their positions to support Likud policies in the American government. All this can happen because there is a vacuum in U.S. political discourse., A handful of special interests in the United States virtually dictate congressional policy on some issues. With regard to the Arab Israeli conflict, The American Israel Public Affairs Committee and a few allies have succeeded in imposing complete censorship on both houses of Congress. No Senator or Representative dares make a speech on the floor of his or her institution critical of Israeli policy.”

The blanket of censorship covers the American media also. Even some of the most progressive Jews are afraid to speak their true thoughts on the Israeli expansionist policies in the Middle East. They are even afraid of their own friends and family as the Likud policies dominate every synagogue. After the total destruction of Iraq carried out by the neo-cons by lying to the American people about “weapons of mass destruction” They are now destroying Lebanon, and would have the United States make war with Iran.

Why? because Iran wants to build an atomic reactor. Who wouldn’t want an atom bomb when a sworn enemy has hundreds of them? Israel is a warlike nationalistic state run by Zionists. No other country has attacked the United States since Pearl Harbor except when Israel attacked the USS Liberty in international waters. No congressional investigation of this vicious assault has been held. It has been kept out of the press and the media but the veterans of the USS Liberty are on the web. Google over to their site and check it out.

The greatest and most powerful country in the world is hostage to the Zionists. The end of the Cold War left the arms industry hanging but Israel is giving them an excuse to keep making more nuclear submarines. Israel is providing them with their life’s blood . . . WAR.

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How can you describe a bunch of right wing dogma-believing anti-intellectuals as having a "sophisticated intellectual structure" when they are just a maudlin bunch of dogma fiends?

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Poor little troll.

the assault on decency that is learning about homosexuality.

That made me laugh. Where, exactly, are 1st graders "taught" homosexuality?

No where.

Yet another in a long series of straw men from "prod". Keep 'em comin'. You make it so easy.

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You are right. Christian and Islamic self-righteous intolerance is dangerous and a threat to our lives.

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Josh Holland has been criticized by me on other topics, so I'm not surprised at his criticism in return.

As for my assertion that scorn of Christians is rampant on the left, I don't have to search the archives. This article and others like it on Alternet in the last two years amply demonstrate the lack of interest in really investigating Christianity in America, but rather looking always at its most reactionary practitioners. The writers on Alternet don't represent the entire left, as much as they might wish to think so. Read the responses to writers like Jim Rigby and Jim Wallis and people from Tikkun when their articles are posted on Alternet and on HuffPost, and the kind of reaction Christians get from fellow progressives is shown in abundance.

For that matter, I have posted many many times, usually in a very measured tone, sometimes in exasperation, and the response is always similar to Holland's: mocking, and unable to even engage the tactical points I am making.

No one ever seems to be able to acknowledge that a caricature of Christianity as inherently reactionary is even possibly a mistake. As for the poster who said I was privileging Christianity above other faiths, that's nowhere in my post, that's in their head, or in their experiences with some other kind of Christian.

My church is out there with the homeless, advocating for peace, building alternative structures to make up for the utter lack of effective action by local government. We're Christians, and we're following Jesus, and that to us means helping the poor and the vulnerable. Where are the concrete proposals or recommended courses of action on Alternet? Criticism is easy. Action is hard.

The subject is always subtly changed when I point out that while the left in the 60's and early 70's was busy building alternative institutions and addressing real needs, the left now is simply talking about what's wrong with all those stupid reactionaries.

The reason the right was so successful for so long is that they ignored their losses in Washington and engaged people on the local level. They did it dishonestly, and and hid their true agenda much of the time. But they did it.

The left has been losing ground PRECISELY since the rise of the evangelical right alienated Jewish and secular leftists from Christianity, and understandably so. But this was a crucial tactical error. And if you care more about the nation our children will live in than in being right about everything all the time, you'll take another look at that decision.

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Don't that beat all? After years of Christian bumper stickers commanding that there be "no special rights" for gays with regard to civil unions.

So, when it comes to non-Christians, equal rights are special rights. But when it comes to Christians being excluded from having to respect the equal rights of the non-Christian potential hire, "the Christian Nationalist movement [is] pushing for special privileges under the banner of equal rights".

It must be tough to be a decent Christian when such people are trashing your religion. Oh wait, it's just like being a decent American and having to face the world after the neocons.

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From a political point of view, the Christian Right appears to be operating quite rationally.

When I met Thomas Frank, the author of What's the Matter With Kansas I told him that I had connected the dots he presented in his book in a way that he had not done specifically. He had observed how people being damaged economically by the policies of those they supported on religious grounds, seemed a bit baffled but pleased by this support. He concluded that this appeared to indicate that among the citizenry, fanatical belief had trumped common sense. It seemed to me, on the other hand, that the consequence of the new apparently belief-based organization on the right that Frank described was to give little WASPS a source of power they had lacked in the past. He himself had described how leaders did not worship the Incumbent. Rather they insisted that he honor their needs in return for their support.

As public coffers are more and more depleted, fulfilling Grover Nordquist's strategy of starving the government of funds to the point that it can simply be drowned in the toilet, private funding for those loyal to the current regime are growing significantly. Thus are members of the religious right becoming better positioned than any other group of "little people" in the United States to protect themselves from a plummeting economy.

The primary assumption that unites the religious right --in one form or another I've heard it stated far more often by political conservatives than by liberals -- has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics: it is the assumption that the United States is shifting from bering a constitutional democracy, to a different model which I dare not label accurately for fear of being labeled a conspiracy theorist.

Frank did not disagree with my analysis.

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Such an amusing creature you are.

Tommy Pickles

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As I recall, the timeline was supposed to be that the Second Coming would be 40 years after the re-establishment of Israel - so hopes were high for 1988!

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"People that think their children deserve to go through 1st grade without the assault on decency that is learning about homosexuality."

The first time I heard about homosexuality, I was about seven years old. It was in a conversation about marriage with a friend the same age. She mentioned, "No, it's not just men and women marrying each other; women can marry women and men can marry men." It was 1971 so of course what she said was not technically true in this country. My reaction was, "Oh." What's indecent about that conversation?

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,,,always seem to lose--they are too busy cannibalizing each other, instead of their opponents. I mean, come on, guys--haven't you two better things to do than engage in a mutually destructive pissing contest? Sheeeeesh!

For a better understanding of other reasons why Democrats seem to lose, and might have already lost in 2008, I urge everyone to read Greg Palast's new book "Armed Madhouse", which gives great understandings of complicated issues and connects many of the dots. At least it has made things much more understandable for me.

Regards,,,John
( john_rice@neitherparty.org )

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I think Americans have tired of Liberal Politics because we have lost focus. While we are worring about Abortion rights in China, the Republicans have looted the treasury and put our grandchildren into servitude.
Abortion is not the issue, we need to talk about Federal interference between a doctor and a patient.

Gay marriage isn’t the issue, we need to talk about equality for all citizens and there needs to be a serious debate about why do adults living together need shared social benefits and if there isn’t a real reason for it, it should not be a Democratic issue.

Gun control where are the stats that show something that works? We should support any position on gun control that police officers support. When did the Democrats decide to become the party that doesn't support the cop on the street?

Education, take the Federal Government out of the testing business and lets go back to libraries and facilities let the counties set curriculum. How about a Federal internet clearinghouse for teaching materials? We need to become the party of ideas and of simple facts. Less Federal Government.

I want a party that takes as much care with my civil rights as it does with my tax dollars.

rant over... :)

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You are a willfully ignorant man, Josh. I have raised point after point about the place of religion in the history of the left, that you refuse to acknowledge or respond to, perhaps because of some deeply held discomfort about this topic.

You mock and criticize everything I say, make no attempt to discuss the tactics or the process of movement building that are central to this problem, and you then accuse me of not providing examples of this mocking and mindless bashing. Don't need to, Josh, you're providing the examples by yourself.

What is the deal with writers on this site, that they don't even know the history of the left? You use a shoddy debating tactic, by dismissing any point raised that is related to the topic as irrelevant because it is not explicitly mentioned in the original piece. That's not discussion, or analysis.

Goldberg, and other writers like her, are obsessed with the influence of the reactionaries in the church. She says that Thomas Frank has created a "myth" among the left that the religious right doesn't ever get what it wants. That's not a myth that's apparently held by many people who write on Alternet lol. Quite the reverse. To hear you and others here tell it, there is nothing the religious right doesn't get from the GOP. The naivete and the lack of curiosity about the diversity in the church are astonishing.

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I see a lot of posts here that seem defensive because of the articles critique of Christian Nationalism. That is not all Christians.

I will say however that Christians posting here who feel threatened by the left abandoning them have good reason, at least if I’m anyone to judge by. I wish all you folks would disappear into your various heavens with your spooks, haints, saints, and insulting beliefs. Why?

1) I’m sick of religious nuts squabbling over some pissant hole in the ground.
2) I’m really annoyed by the presumption of many of you that I am not a moral being without adhering to your Candyland fantasies.
3) There’s no concealing the very real misogyny, homophobia, xenophobia and the 31 other flavors of hate tucked away in Christian, Jewish, and Islamic teaching.
4) You don’t keep your own damn house in order; why are you people here whinging about non-believers uniting with you against the Christian fascists when you should be out there educating those people in your own particular self-deceiving tolerant view of your religion?
5) You don’t mind your damn business. Stick your sumptuary laws in your tookus.
6) You are hypocrites. My most liberal and devout agape-mouthing Christian friends still live in nice upper middle class homes and spend plenty of time looking our for number one instead of the least among us.

So if you want to be offended, be offended at me. Not at someone pointing out the obvious nascent fascism blossoming in America--which has ALWAYS been prone that way anyway.

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Your sarcasm belies a contempt for other people that, surely, isn't Christian.
Keep that love flowing!

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Just as all Democrats are not Progressives, not all Christians-- even Evangelicals-- do not subscribe to the NeoCon agenda or 'Christian Nationalism'. Please do not throw the baby out with the bath water. There is a lot of common ground that many Christians of various denominations and the Progressive Movement.

I am a Christian, a member of a denomination that is commonly referred to as evangelical and hold the following beliefs:

1- Wise environmental policy & sustainable development is not only the right thing to do-- it fits perfectly within the Christian Teaching of Stewardship.
2- Universal Healthcare & Education is and should be treated as the basic human rights they are.
3- Separation of Religion and Government is not only the founder's intent, it is also a protection for people of every faith or non-faith.
4- Discrimination against anyone for what sex or color they are, where they come from, who or what they worship and who they choose to partner with is wrong and endangers the rights of all.
5- Civil Unions are the business of government-- not the Church.
6- Pseudo-science does not belong in science textbooks, science classrooms or political policy.
7- Support for human rights, universal suffrage and democracy should be the number one priority of our foreign policy.
8- The death penalty is barbaric and should be eliminated.
9- We need to bring our military home from overseas and restructure it as a purely defensive force.
10- We, as a people, owe many parts of the world a huge apology for our heavy handed meddling and intervention in their internal affairs.

When you use a broad brush and lump all Christians in with the loonies you not only insult people like me, you also hurt the very causes you are working toward. I am not alone.

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95% of "christians" are the worst kinds of hypocrites. These "life savers" twist the teachings of their "savior" into intolerance, alienation and warmongering. But Jesus is smiling down on them.

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I was heartened to read in my hometown paper yesterday that three (count 'em: three) Jewish peace groups protested in front of the Israeli embassy against Israel's over-reactive military response to Hezbollah. Kudos to Jewish Voice for Peace, Jews for a Free Palestine, and Break the Silence Mural and Arts Project, who had the guts to stand up against the cultural sacred cow of Israel.

It's time we break the silence and start saying what we've all been thinking — that as long as the U.S. continues to arm Israel, the Israelis will never have the motivation to come to the table. Why talk when you can shoot/bomb/blow up/bulldoze your perceived enemy?

Gramps is right: until the U.S. stops funding the Haliburton machine (the only winner in this sad conflict), there is no end in sight to the trouble in the Middle East. We must even the stakes in the conflict. [Anyone who says these stakes are already even is not paying attention; Iran and Syria do not send rocks to Palestinian boys. There's enough money in the Arab/Persian/Muslim world to blow Israel off the map yesterday, and the will. It is the Arab world outside of Palestine that has shown the most restraint in this conflict.]

I'm writing letters today (real letters, on paper, with postage) to my US Rep and both Senators to say "It's time we start talking about censuring Israel, and the way to start is by withholding money earmarked for military use and by ending the legal sale of American armaments to Israel."

I'm so weary of the world going along with the notion that "God" "gave" "Israel" to a group of people. What utter nonsense. "God" certainly is not any one people's exclusive real estate agent. Those of us who value living in a secularist society must stop co-opting this belief.

We must first work to live together as real human beings, respectful of all minds and bodies, all families and property; only then can we learn to live together as spiritual beings with distinct beliefs. To try to engage in civilized problem solving as "religious" people first is disastrous. Nearly 60 years of conflict in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories is proof enough of that.

It is my hope that the blind religiosity of the American Christian movement will suffer the same dogged beleaguring as Israel, and will be forced, eventually, to use brains first, faith second. This will only happen if enough of us keep dogging the right and speaking truth to power.

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"These are people that think sucking the brains out of a late-term baby is just not cool."

Are you trying to tell me that there's NEVER been a Christian on Fear Factor?

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Read any conservative website, Free Republic, Human Events. Peruse Coulter or Hannity's site or listen to their medi commentary. They are unhappy. Very unhappy. No prayer in schools, little or no reference to God at public events, rising single mom stats, more people out of closet and a defensive "defense" of marriage that has been inconsistent in success. Single people cohabitating more and more. Outside of the fundementalist sects, fewer and fewer people going to church or synagogue on regular basis. Muslims increasingly active in US society despite 9/11 cries.

The gay rights and abortion constitutional amendments cannot get out of Congress.

The secular political forces should give up the time they spend agonizing over a non-existent theocratic threat and devise secular solutions that have broad support from average people. Most Americans barely know much about their own religion let alone anyone else's. They want affordable housing, education and transportation, and a trip to Disney World or somewhere like that every year. It is called the American Secular Religion. If you dont like that religion, fine. That is more of a "threat" to values than Bible thumpers.

I also rarely see any criticism of the prevalence of fundementalism among African Americans or those Hispanic Americans who are "religious".

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Sound the alarm. The Christian lunatics must be headed off at the pass. Quick, everybody, post something about how dangerous they are and how sad you are that America is transforming into a violent dictatorship. Show us that your vision of reality, unlike those crazy Christians', is balanced, clearsighted and transcendent. Maybe the other people on Alternet will be impressed and say you are very articulate and enlightened. Maybe it will turn out that you're some kind of prophet.

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"Authoritarian religion - it's just mind control" Another word for this is brainwashing, otherwise known as coercive propaganda, or more popularly, 'messing with someone's head'. Zombies are very suggestible - ask the Haitians.

This is why the separation of church and state was put in place - because of the dominant controlling power of religous institutions for thousands of years. The ancient Egyptians had their Pharoahs, whose word was absolute law, and then there was the medieval Church - these were totalitarian organizations that relied on their masses of 'true believers' to maintain a small number of people in positions of power and wealth.

The same is true for communism - because everyone believes something, even a self-styled 'atheist'. If you ask me what I believe, I'll ask you what you mean by 'believe'... grasshopper. All the lovely Black Sea villas that the Party elite spent their time at came as a shock to the party faithful, who had previously only seen their leaders in severe grey dress stepping out of black sedans - their were even protests in East Germany after the Wall came down. In the USSR, the church was the state. Believe in the Fatherland! The point being that 'state totalitarianism' was preceded by 'church totalitarianism'.

Every once in a while the excesses of the leaders become so gross that the followers rebel and split off; the Borgia-style Popes led to the Protestants - and this whole religious mess came over to the US on little ships of various denominations only to encounter cultures that had never heard of them - and who they promptly denounced as sub-human devil worshippers, pursuant to seizing their land and establishing export-based colonies.

In the modern US, as in the past, it's largely about political power and economic control - but that doesn't play very well on the evening news. You need a screen, a front, a way of defining terms and bounds and the proper limits of discussion. Religion, the media - whatever. People need to be led by the nose - that's why politically motivated religious groups insist on the absolute and unquestioning acceptance of the 'revealed word of Jah' as interpreted by their high priests - and that's also why they frown on mystical or individualistic notions of religious belief, regardless of their own specific creed.

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I have no doubt that the belief structure used to excuse blatant violations of church-state separation makes sense to Christian Nationalists. But it’s a waste of all our time to engage in what amounts to a theological argument with them.

I have no doubt Christian Nationalists truly believe what they want is for all our own good. But arguing about that is a waste of time. It doesn’t matter what they believe.

Separation of church and state means that you can believe whatever you want. But those beliefs cannot be used to justify public activities, such as how public funds are spent, how public schools are taught, etc.

It has not been legal to use public funds to promote religion since 1825. I shudder to think what the current Supremes will do with pending church-state issues.

My only disagreement with Goldberg is her suggestion to accentuate the polarization—that’s the way I see her programmatic suggestions. Recall that Bush was not elected, twice, by Christian Nationalists. He was elected by white men who can see their privileges slipping from their grasp. Regain some promise for the latter, and the former can continue their holy rolling without scaring the horses.

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Goldberg worries about conference calls between Christian based groups that lobby Congress and the grass roots. Here she sees some kind of erosion of church state separation, though no one is forced to adhere to any church in America. But she has nothing to say about AIPAC, the large lobbying organizations of Reform as well as Orthodox Jews who lobby incessantly for a foreign nation, Israel.

Why, Ms. Goldberg?

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Religious loons and nutters cannot discern Hittite law from the law of Moses, let alone their arses from their elbows.
Hittite law says, "thou shalt not kill."
The law of Moses stated, "...these people thou shalt utterly destroy, leaving nothing alive that breathes, namely the Hittites...." (Deuteronomy 20;17)
If you ask them why anyone should express concern for the fate of Uriah the Hittite, like Nathan the (false) Prophet did in II Samuel 12, and you will be treated to the bafflegab of obfuscation that is the staple of theologists throughout the world.

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As stated: A Secular Nation Amendment could be a unifying core around which other tolerant/liberal intellectual structures could build and eventually flourish.
The amendment should be worded to (1) provide for the impartial protection of the private religious observances of any citizen, (2) prohibit any elected or appointed federal or state official from predicating his public governmental duties on the basis on any religious or other supernatural belief system, and (3) exclude tax deductions for contributions to religious organizations, or "any organization postulating a supernatural belief system."
It would be a good "in your face" response to the Christian nationalists and their other forms. JMHO

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You know Prod, there's really nothing wrong with any of your opinions. I respect your right to believe as you will. However the problem arises when you refuse to return the courtesy. At the end of the day, no matter how fervently you believe what you say, they are still just your opinions. The point of this article is that the "Christian Nationalists" are trying to LEGISLATE said opinions, and force everyone to think/feel/believe as they do. How can you not see the hypocrisy and intolerance in that?

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Your post is truly scary. It contains ideas that are twisted and certainly not Christian, although with the radical right they are treated as such. First of all, those late term abortions were always extremely, extremely rare and were used only if the mother's health was in jeopardy. For centuries up until the last one, life was considered to begin at birth. It's like saying the seed is the plant. It isn't. The plant has branches, leaves, a root system and provides sustance for all kinds of creatures. Similarly a grown person is not a fetus, and certainly isn't a collection of cells known as the embryo. A grown person has memories, experiences, a family and friends, can develop empathy, is productive. A collection of cells does not. Plus, you are hypocritical. If your feel that destroying a life is bad, then don't go into an innocent country and bomb the hell out of civilians so that the casualties in Iraq are more than 50,000 men, women, and innocent children. How on earth can good "Christians" justify this crap? Is it more important to say the right thing than do the right thing. Christ was a rebel and he was nonviolent (read the Sermon on the Mount if you haven't do so) If the Christian right succeeds we will have more of the same twisted logic, and that frightens me.

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I suspect an unholy alliance between these vile bible-thumpers and: corporations, the mega-wealthy, and politicians. The purpose: to make the masses accepting of extreme wealth disparities in our society. And that we don't question loss of freedom--especially the freedom to oppose and learn about economic oppression in the U.S.

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"Don't believe in taking a life to save a life?"

How then, does one "War on Terror" fit into your belief system?

Why then, do so many that espouse this cliche' proudly carry an NRA membership card next to a .45? (disclosure: I do own a firearm)

It is the selective application, and self-serving interpretations, of the would-be tenets of Christianity that makes your title - intended sarcastically - utterly, utterly true.

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I'm full of self pity? Where'd you get that? I certainly don't feel it. I don't feel personally attacked, and I never said I did. I KNOW that the left is shooting itself in the foot, and the long threads of responses to the points I raised, full of insults and hyperbole, without ever addressing the tactical and historical issues, proves my point many times over.

As a side note, MAN is Josh Holland obsessed with tearing down little ol' me! It'd be funny if it weren't so sad - he's gonna have to learn some lofty disdain if he wants to nail down that MSM job he clearly pines for).

What's YOUR explanation for the utter failure of the left over the last thirty years, everybody? Think it has NOTHING to do with the divide the GOP has succeeded in creating between Jews and Christians? Between atheist intellectuals and Christians?

Think the big scary Christians are taking over the country? Then offer a serious, considered alternative based on real-world practical ideas that help ordinary people. Telling Christians and religious Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists that they are delusional and dangerous (as has been stated over and over again on this site by literally hundreds of different posters (Oh I hear Josh asking for citations again... go look it up yourself, you angry little man) is a recipe for failure, and the recipe has made a big giant batch of losingness.

I'm going to stop reading now, and go live and work. So mock and rant as much as you want, y'all. Because it's painfully obvious that the failure of the left is RIGHT HERE. In a bunch of people who have no idea how to get off their butts and DO SOMETHING. Not march or protest or argue or post rants, but actually help someone in a way that shows they give a crap, and then turning that into a conversation about where we can go together. That's happening out there in the real world, and a lot of it is going on at churches. Even some of the megachurches which are far from my cup of tea.

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I was nervous but still fairly nonchalant about Christian Nationalism until I had a chance to visit my father and his second wife in an assisted living community where I helped them sort and read mail. They both had given freely to a variety of extreme Christian causes and received lots of fund raising solicitations as a result. Some were from two groups whose purpose was to save the world from the evil demons at ACLU. When upholding the Constitution and applying the law of the land to all equally are viewed as demonic actions, we have a problem, Houston.

We must learn all we can about these Christian Nationalist groups and we must stop them from spreading. Now.

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Sounds to me that you love gruesome imagery. Your walls must be covered with pictures of flag covered caskets, maimed bloody bodies, children and soldiers with missing body parts and disfigured. Mothers from many nations crying over their loved one's dead bodies. Everybody affected, really appreciates your support and complicity in these matters.

Your maker is SATAN and you must repent or burn for eternity!!!

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I can sure vouch for the fact that they are whacko and dangerous. I have also said for a very long time, now, that Liberals and Progressives are not as aware as they should be about what these people are up to.

They want nothing less than an "Christian State," where everyone who is not one of them will be second class citizens. That would not only be just secular humanists, but Episcopalians, who they do not believe are a Church, because they ordain women and gays.

They are much more like Osama bin Laden and the Taliban than they are any of us.

They like to refer to themselves as "people of faith," but they are anything but. People of real faith do not have to insist that everyone else believe as they do or even behave as they do, nor would they insist on codifying their belief system.

Their first answer to everything would not be violence, because real faith gives one the courage to believe in the good in all living things, even when evidence of it is not all that clear.

Real faith leads to unity, not the horrible duality of us v. them.

The religious-right, literalist dogma spreaders are basically hateful people who should never be allowed anywhere near the halls of power.

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against campaigning. This was reported 7/18/06 in the Los Angeles Times. This apparently, new enforcement program , called Political Activity Compliance Initiative sent letters to at least 15,000 churches.
When the Dems were in power, the IRS was the enemy, and any activity against any church was used in fundraising. How this will play out in this election cycle will be interesting, the "religious right" has a special language that is understood by members and it may be hard to prove that it is related to campaigning.
The Black churches tend to vote Democratic, and they may be targeted for special consideration by the IRS. This government has wasted billions of dollars and hefty fines are on the way!!!!!

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The funny thing is these people are not Christian, they are Christstain or "Christian."
Thank you for pointing out the difference between "evangelical" and "Christian" Nationalist. They are both phoneys. Don't let them taint your view of Christianity. They are hypocrites and wolves in sheep's clothing.
eastcoker

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Regardless of what may have happened in centuries gone by (it is a favorite tactic to talk about war in Gods name), lets look at the last few years shall we?
As much as I do not wish to see Christians codifying beliefs into law, making abortion a federal issue, or limiting birth control, I have to point out that perhaps with regard to religion the seeming irrational fear of Christianity is maybe a projection (I hope so) of other real religious events to fear.
Sharia law looks a lot more scary than the ten commandments, and there are a few billion people on the planet that would like nothing more then to see you living under it. It is openly and repreatedly stated as a goal, and tangibly acted upon in that regard, and a multitude of entire countries, as well as entire sections of other countries are living under it as we speak. It is said to be the fastest growing religion on the planet, and its growth in this country is staggering.
It is fine to dislike your perceived objectives of Christianity. But it begs rationality to prevail when zero mention is made of Islam and the goals it has regarding the human condition. Worse then just omitting a mention of Islam and ranting on and on about the "dangers" of Christians, is the fact that elsewhere on these boards the practitioners of Sharia law are lionized and heralded as good, defended and justified.
If a level headed atheist looked at the juxtaposed treatments of Christians and Muslims here it would make their confused head spin. Its as if the earth is traveling headlong into the sun, and you all are busy trying to treat a common cold. Where are the books (they do exist) being mentioned here, with the local crowd shouting an enthusiastic Hoooyaaaa! as the advances of Islam are dissected and an action plan for their defeat is set out? Do you know that in the nations prisons there is an extremely active ministry by Muslims, converting double digit percentages of inmates to Islam? I'm sure that, without mention of the Muslim activity, it would be loathed to know that the poor captive audience inside the prison walls is subjected to Christian outreach and ministry. Why after all, the inmate, when free, may oppose abortion or something and thats just not fair. Meanwhile the inmate schooled in Islam may blow up something or kill someone.
One poster made a good point that also sheds light on the duplicitousness at work. In the African American community there is a vast, growing, strong and fundamental Christian demographic. In the hispanic community there is as well. The believers in these groups are even more passionate and outspoken and thrive on the end of the religious spectrum that you on the left would call fanatics.
How can you possibly lump these protected peoples into a group that you so disdain? How could you actively seek policies that in any way are detrimental to the beliefs of these minorities? Can you imagine a book or an article that focused on the danger of the growing Christian fundamentalism in the black community complete with an action plan for how to stifle those people and their actions?
If the desires of the prevalent opinion here were exerted and allowed to follow the full and natural extrapolated course, you would have to eventually wear a Burka and avoid beheading while on your way to the safe and legal abortion clinic. Based on what is written in these boards, that describes the America you would see evolve, partly do to overt action, and partly the law of unintended consequesnces.

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A wise man once told his wife that he wasn't going to church with her because he didn't want to sit with a bunch of hypocrits.

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Sad though that government is doling handouts to these thugs.

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"Also, journalists should take these religious groups seriously enough to ask about them. I'm totally agnostic on the question of whether Bush is a true believer or totally cynical, I think he's some combination. Somebody asked Bush at a public meeting whether any of his Middle East policies are informed by his vision of the End Times. That to me is a totally legitimate question and he didn't really answer it. If these people are saying they take their religion seriously, then people have a right to ask what is it and do you believe x, y or z. "

These questions by journalists are one of the most important defenses against the developing American-Taliban threat. Also, I believe that those of us who are Christians and NOT fanatics need to state our case, especially politicians. I think all of us may need instruction in how to do that. The NeoCons have been instructed at what my husband and I refer to as "Chruch Camp".

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Don't need to repost it all here... google alternet and Christianism. It's all been said.

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Wow ! , some of the Yanks here are really twisted individuals. Yeah, sure, we got our share of crazies in Australia as well ( the Pentecostals are expanding like tics on a rabid Dingo) but nothing beats the Yanks. You guys really believe this shit huh?
How about the guy who reckons he takes his instructions from God . what? are you fu*&king crazy? Man you should get thee to a Pyschiatrist and sort your head out dude.

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The Democrats sit idly by as the Neo-cons trash the Constitution. The Democrats do not say a word as the Neo-cons steal private lands, cage peaceful demonstrators, force Amazon and Wikipedia (who admitted a conspiracy) to drop the book "America Deceived" by E.A. Blayre III and wire-tap all phones illegally. Democrats also supported 2 illegal wars based on a false-flag attack known as 9/11.
Governor Wallace was right when he said that "there's not a dime's worth of difference' between Republicans and Democrats.
Final link (before Google Books caves to pressure and drops the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/
book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0

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This Christian Nationalist (I daresay fundamentalist) nonsense is really no different than any other form of fundamentalism -- you quote one verse from the Bible, hype it up, and use scare tactics to transform the "damned" into the "saved" and before you know it, you have loonies on the loose.

These politicians obviously use religion as a POLITICAL MOVE. Were we in secular Europe, whether we thought ourselves to be attached to the Pope's hip, we'd play up being secular and shit if it meant getting our agenda on the table. Sure, some of them are already Christian fundamentalists be means of their upbringing and environment. But, clearly, we currently live in a country that is s confused about is identity as I'll ever know, and it makes me wonder that our fate was sealed when the Puritans (the earliest of the Christian fundamentalists) laid their roots in this soil.

I like to think of Christian fundamentalism in the US like Brazilian capoeira -- to the unknowledgable outsider, it looks like a dance with live music and people singing. However, the insiders KNOW it's a fight, but make it look like a dance to fool the outsider. That's how Christian fundamentalism is in this country. Although not as obvious as Islamic fundamentalist counterparts, Christian fundamentalism fools people because of the umbrella of democracy.

We live in a democratic, equal rights loving country that wants to ban gay marriage, abortion, and STILL DOES NOT HAVE AN EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT. Is there something wrong here? How about - YES! But of course, we take it for granted -- the Bible Belt is down there and most people here are Christian, but some are more "passionate" than others -- all of which is bullshit. If the Christian fundamentalists are saying We don't believe in Evolution than Washington is gonna say, "That's a no to evolution", and they are going to get the hot political Christian neocon loonies in order to back them up. Do you think Washington likes Israel cause they are Jewish? I hardly doubt it. But both have an agenda, and both see that they can benefit a lot out of a good partnership -- like more money for campaigns in the US and money for the military in Israel.

So, you'll see that many major players in world conflicts today are religious fundamentalists and bigots. Not surprising, eh? God is as mysterious to us as Deep Throat's identity once was...and He only comes into play when the politicians need his name to win votes.

Peace.

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I remember back when in undergrad school in the bibble belt reading rags by religous right talking about waging a war on secular America, eleborating on strategies for taking over American politics.

linked text = Music for a Crumbling Empire (free MP3 downloads)

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Yes folks, THE CHRISTO-FASCISTS are now, basically, running major portions of this bleeding, dying republic of ours.
See Craig Unger's article AMERICAN RAPTURE in the Dec. 2005 issue of VANITY FAIR. CHRISTO-FASCISTI + WORLD-CORPORATISTS + DEFENSE CONTRACTORS +
RE-PIG-LICANS + RIGHT WING THINK TANKS (e.g., PNAC & AMER. ENTERPRISE INST.) + Co-OPTED MEDIA = ABSOLUTE DISASTER FOR OUR PLANET AND ALL LIFE SHE SUSTAINS!
-Piggins

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I believe for the most part that the printed forms of good and evil are just abstract depictions of the duality of man. It may just seem paradoxical but com'on, the religious texts that everyone involved in religions read are all written by man. Of course the devout will say that they are the words of GOD in transcription not the words of the authors. These documents contain passages that don't seem to belong among the words of a benevolent all powerful being though. These passages probably say something to the effect of there is only 1 way to heaven or if you don't behave you will go to hell. This would be an excellent guidebook if there were only one religion in the world. There are in fact more than one all claiming to be the "One true way". In my opinion the hand of evil is among these writings.

The problem is that fundamentalists typically take "the word" as literal or absolute truth. History shows that the time periods religious texts were written coincide with movements to overthrow government by religious leaders or vice versa . In these troubling times resurgences of "lost texts" are introduced or new ones written (offshoots even) that convince the radicals that they are doing wrong. Nowadays the rich are firmly in control of EVERYTHING due to a system that was founded in the beginnings of religion. Religious writings advise that material existence matters not only your place in Heaven. Very convincing to the person who is genuinely good all the while toiling away in the fields for Peanuts.

I mention the rich now but it always is about whomever is in control at the time. You notice that in nations ruled by religion only the poor go to war. Meanwhile the "leaders" sit back and watch the bloodshed and then reap the profit to be gained in rebuilding the warzones. In countries that have laws requiring all to serve in the military you will notice a reluctance to fight. Unfortunately America is becoming one of the former. The religious right is trying to bully people with morality. IT IS A LIE. It is always about control and in this period in time money is control. You will notice the fact that our Administration does absolutely nothing to abate the flow of jobs to China. We owe them a lot of money. Another source of control can come from limited natural resources. Allowing the building war in the Middle East to go on completely unchecked. Is a ploy by our administration to take control of oil. Okay you say I'm pointing out the obvious but I don't believe it is to get lower prices for us "Poor Americans". The Pres. and his cronies could care less about us (look at how many are dead in Iraq) they are worried about are debt to China. What better way to offset our debt than by gaining control of that which they want to purchase most.

Now sure I stray from the religious side of the story but that is all that it is. As long as honestly good people think that they are fighting on the "Good Side" of the holy war they will do anything for you. PEOPLE WITH POWER USE RELIGION TO CONTROL SUCKERS. It's could be a combination of many things. These controlled people may just not have the ability to think for themselves or maybe they just don't want to take responsibility for thier actions. As long as these people exist and believe what the Power Mongers have written they will always be sent off to die. The Power Mongers sure aren't gonna do it.

This power is illusionary. By our compliance to the system of money and consumerism we give the rich the power to control us. Notice all of the modern parallels to the Bible the Government is drawing. Sounds like the offshoot from an old theme to me. There is a revolution going on now. It is up to us to direct where it rolls. Please don't vote for republicans this Nov.

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Get back with me when Christians start strapping bombs to their children and send them out to kill innocent men, women and other children so they can make Jesus proud and get Jesus' 72 virgins.

Or, when they start killing three hundred other Christians a day (Muslims are killing about that in Iraq now) because they aren't 'Christian enough'.

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http://www.thorrific.com/christianpiratepussies.htm

Red Heifer, war profiteering, war contractors, Third Temple, Second Coming, Pentagon, Al-Aqsa Mosque, Jesus, animal sacrifice, Moses, Bible, Armageddon, Apocalypse, HILARIOUS!!!

Not safe for work, may offend whimpys.

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Ms. Goldberg has, unjfortunately, made a serious factual error. In the second sentence or the 12th paragraph (including one sentence paragraphs) Ms. Goldberg says, "Evangelicals are about 30 percent of the American population." According to the prestigious National Survey of Religious Identification, "Evangelicals remain just 7% of the adult population." Good grief! "Thirty percent" is not just a wee bit off, it is massively incorrect. Please...Let's be a bit more careful with data. Something close to accuracy would be nice.

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I have a feeling if Jesus (if he ever really existed) comes back, an awful lot of these people are in for a HUGE SURPRISE. They're gonna find themseleves in a VERY WARM PLACE. Jesus, if we are to believe the New Testament, was a man of PEACE. This gang isn't.

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All this anger is having a, hopefully, good effect on the posters. A type of safety valve. In a relatively small amount of time this will all be forgotten. All this passion and energy could have been put partly into learning restraint and partly into directly helping others. Being an egotistical, bias human myself, I know something will pop up and take its place. You know, eventually we're going to have to evolve or die.

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Ya, spend all your time focusing on the threat of fundie Christians because they are the real threat.

The fundie Muslims, 'no big deal'.

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An artist's rendition of the average American voter...
http://www.anus.com/etc/tmp/democracy_now.jpg

Our solution:
http://www.corrupt.org/

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thanks SANUS, the corrupt.org link is one of the best sites I've encountered.

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The San Antonio Express-News just published a front page article on this cheerleader and apologist for Israel. It's the same dribble from six months ago but in a more prominent place.

I countered with Eleanor Roosevelt's 1949 comment in her "My Day" column: "Spiritual leadership should remain spiritual leadership and the temporal power should not become too important in any church."

I guess people aren't concern about Churchmen of Hagee's ilk going off the reservation. However, the last one, Francis Cardinal Spellman, resulted in a 20 year Vietnam War.

Wake-up America!

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Moderate Christians, many of them Republicans, have known for at least 15 years that the Radical Christian Right were very dangerous. By the way, they are not Christian, nor are they right!

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Google for these words: ``concentration camps fema''

The cryptonazis are very well prepared againt a civil war. Why is there still freedom of speech? Because they want to know who's against them so they can kill them. Sites like these get quietly monitored and everyone reading and posting comments against the state is registred and will be caught and put in their death-camps.

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was an excellent book out of Berkely. sorry cant remember the author.... mao was right, religion is the opiate of the masses.
I am a panthiest, I do believe in a larger self and am against the minimization of God, Goddess. to sound bites and political rhetoric. same old story of using superstition to rule the masses since the priests of Egypt perhaps before.

We are still abdicating personal responsibility to something outside of us....to support our actions to garner power. Greed is the last of the seven deadly sins for us to deal with. Zionist betrayed Jesus.

The problem is these power mongers in religious garb take the innocent with the guilty. The devil hides in plain sight...behind the churchsand holy houses with weak unintelligent leaders.
If Jesus is coming and the world would end...bring it on and quickly because this aint' going to be pretty....the Earth is compromised environmentally beyond hope and while we strain at the gnats of religous pompasity the elephant of the Earths degraded environment is being swallowed without a thought or a care. Too few are crying in whats left of the wilderness. All our debates over whos god or goddess is the best will be for naught....all the soap operas and wars, all the battles over rights and power will be mute.

what is realy important here?

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...every administration pays off its political backers with cushy jobs and money. So how are the current crop of Republicans any different?

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