AlterNet / By Marjorie Cohn
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 327

Israel's Gaza Problem

Israel's devastating invasion of Gaza threatens to cripple the densely populated area, and may drive legions of Palestians to jihad.
July 4, 2006  |  
 
 
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The daily horrors emerging from Iraq have caused a majority of people in the United States to oppose Bush's war there. Meanwhile, the humanitarian crisis Israel has created in the occupied territories hovers below the radar for most Americans.

Israel has used the killing of two Israeli soldiers and the capture of a third by Palestinians as an excuse to invade Gaza with overwhelming military force and demolish its infrastructure. What Israel and its benefactor -- the United States -- really want is to destroy the democratically elected Hamas government.

During the preceding weeks, Israel instigated events that resulted in the capture of the Israeli soldier. The Israeli military had killed more than 30 civilians, including three children and a pregnant woman.

In the week since the Israeli soldier was captured, Israel's U.S.-supplied artillery has pounded the northern Gaza Strip. Its aircraft struck bridges on the main roads. And its helicopters knocked out Gaza's main power plant, leaving half of Gaza's 1.5 million people and its two main hospitals without electricity and running water. The United Nations and the International Committee of the Red Cross have warned of a humanitarian crisis.

Israeli troops and tanks rolled into the southern Gaza Strip, in the biggest raid since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Israel has kidnapped 64 Palestinian governmental ministers and politicians. It bombed the home of Palestinian Prime Minister Ismael Haniyeh.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert made the astounding statement, "I am deeply sorry for the residents of Gaza, but the lives, security and well-being of the residents of [Jewish] Sderot is even more important to me." The Associated Press quoted Olmert as saying, "I want no one to sleep at night in Gaza. I want them to know what it feels like."

The crisis caused by the Israeli government has upset many Israeli citizens.

Hundreds of Israelis protested outside Olmert's home, denouncing the government as war criminals and demanding an end to the Gaza invasion. "We call for our government to stop targeting Palestinian civilians -- the targeting of civilians is a war crime -- and start negotiating with the elected Palestinian leaders, not to arrest them," said Yishai Menuhin, a spokesman for the peace group Yesh Gvul.

Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz commentator Gideon Levy also criticized the Israeli actions. He wrote, "A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization."

Israel's brutal retaliation against Palestinian civilians constitutes collective punishment. Attacks on a civilian population as a form of collective punishment violate article 50 of the Hague Regulations, which provides: "No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible."

The Fourth Geneva Convention also prohibits collective punishment. Article 33 says: "No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed." The Convention requires all states party to it to search for and ensure the prosecution of perpetrators of the war crime of "causing extensive destruction … not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly." Amnesty International called the deliberate attacks by Israeli forces against civilian property and infrastructure war crimes.

Collective punishment is likewise forbidden by Article 75 of Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions. As four U.S. Supreme Court justices agreed in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld last week, Article 75 is "indisputably part of the customary international law."

Before Israel's invasion of Gaza last week, Hamas was beginning to retreat from its position that Israel has no right to exist. But Financial Times quoted Efraim Halevy, Israel's most widely respected security expert, as saying, "Why should Israel care whether Hamas grants it the right to exist? Israel exists and Hamas's recognition or non-recognition neither adds to nor detracts from that irrefutable fact."

The state of Israel is in no danger of perishing. Israel is the fourth-largest military power in the world. Its "enemy" - the Palestinian people - have no tanks, no airplanes, no heavy artillery.

The United States' loyal and consistent support for Israel's policies -- to the tune of more than $3 billion in aid per year -- has enabled the Israeli government to conduct a war of terror against the Palestinians. Yasser Arafat once told an American journalist, "I'll tell you what this war taught us. It taught us that the real enemy is the United States. It is against you that we must fight. Not because your bombs killed our people, but because you have closed your eyes to what is moral and just."

If the United States really wished to act on its human rights rhetoric, it should apply political and economic pressure that Israel could not resist. Under the Arms Export Control Act of 1976, military hardware sold by the United States can only be used for defensive purposes or to maintain internal security. Israel has used F-16 fighter jets, Apache and Cobra attack helicopters, 15mm howitzers, M-16 automatic rifles, M50 machine guns, and many other weapons and ammunition supplied by the United States. Retired U.S. Army Gen. James J. David, in a letter to Colin Powell in January 2002, wrote: "If you're going to deny the Palestinians weapons to defend themselves, then you must stop all military and economic aid to Israel."

The Foreign Assistance Act prohibits the United States from rendering assistance to the government of any country " which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights."

The United States should halt Israel's aggression against the Palestinians by suspending all economic and military aid to Israel until Israel's military forces have been withdrawn from the occupied Palestinian territories.

But Israel is the U.S. client-state in the Middle East, and Bush is just the latest U.S. president to continue that symbiotic relationship.

Hamas has responded to the recent Israeli aggression with threats of retaliation. This probably means the resumption of the suicide bombings which Hamas halted more than a year ago. A statement signed by Hamas spokesman Abu Obeidi said, "We reiterate that the continued aggression and terrorist acts of the tyrannical occupation against the Palestinian people, amid the silence of the international community, will plunge the region in a sea of blood."

A 2002 New York Times editorial said, "The growing harshness of Israeli military practices in the West Bank and Gaza is creating thousands of potential suicide bombers and Israel haters as well as coarsening a generation of young Israeli soldiers."
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Marjorie Cohn is a professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law, president-elect of the National Lawyers Guild and the U.S. representative to the American Association of Jurists.
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Israel Shmisrael
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Posted by: Rolomax on Jul 4, 2006 2:27 AM   
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Who the hell cares about Israel? I don't.

Before you get me wrong (which you probably will) I should probably state that it is not a part of America.

It isn't.

No, Really.

Why do we care about it? When I think about it, they are about as bad as the damned Nazis that they keep educating us about through TV and movies.

I'm sick of the middle east, and I'm sick of the reason that people are so terrified of middle easterners.

The bastards need to go back to the pre 1967 borders. Then maybe there will be some peace.

Then, America can start solving its own problems, which are very many.

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» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: symcokid
» I'm sick of hearing about your bible. Posted by: RhodesVan3000
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: yellow
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: guerillaTHOUGHTterrorist
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: paschn
» RE: Israel Shmisrael.....paschn Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: DennisDalrymple
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: jonwilson
» Please.. Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: Please.. Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: Please.. Posted by: Rolomax

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eerie silence
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Posted by: chutzpah on Jul 4, 2006 2:40 AM   
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The world played dumb for decades concerning apartheid in south africa.
Whites played (or still play) dumb for years while blacks were being enslaved and lynched.
Germans played dumb when hitler started his racial hygiene.
The world played dumb when A bombs where dropped on hiroshima and nagasaki.
Now the world is playing dumb concerning the palestinians and you are all surprised. pls what else is new.

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» RE: eerie silence....Chutzpah Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: eerie silence Posted by: cynndikennemer

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The shame of our time
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Posted by: farhada on Jul 4, 2006 3:30 AM   
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The sad state of civilians in Gaza, and the overall acceptance of the this horrendous acts of inhumanity among the world leaders is another example of how low we have got.

The news around the world is full of the picture of the 19 years old Israeli soldier who was captured (I would not call it kidnapped since he is a soldier on duty in the war zone), but no one is talking about the 10s of thousands of Palestinians who spend years in Israeli prison for no reason.

The disgraceful acts of the Israeli government and the shameful acceptance of their crime is a black mark in the history of the world.

How pathetic of the so called Arab leaders who are so castrated that they can not even have the guts to stand up and say, enough is enough, and put pressure on world leaders to stop supporting this disgusting crime against people who's only crime is that they were born Palestinians.

God this is sickening,
/Farhad Abdolian

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» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: knocko
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: Rolomax
» Palestinians are bulldozers Posted by: Burton
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: farhada
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: symcokid
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: farhada
» Cut to the chase Posted by: farhada
» RE: Cut to the chase...Farhad Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: Northernlight
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: knocko
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: deltadancer
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: symcokid
» Palistine Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Palistine Posted by: farhada
» RE: Palistine Posted by: enzolima
» RE: Palistine Posted by: farhada
» RE: Palistine....Farhad Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Palistine....Farhad Posted by: farhada
» RE: Palistine....Farhad Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Palistine Posted by: king_mob
» RE: Palistine Posted by: Herestratus
» RE: Palistine.....Herestratus Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: The shame of our time...Farhad Posted by: mikespindell
» Please read the news Mike Posted by: farhada
» RE: Please read the news Mike Posted by: mikespindell

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mistakes
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Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 4, 2006 3:58 AM   
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The Bushies make the most mistakes in the world with Israel coming in as #2 in disaster creation. There are lots of other mistake generators but these two take the cake and leave others holding bags crammed full of despair and death.

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» RE: mistakes Posted by: knocko
» RE: mistakes Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: mistakes Posted by: knocko
» RE: mistakes Posted by: paschn
» RE: mistakes Posted by: woodford54
» RE: mistakes Posted by: codingguy

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Israel, with the U.S. Israel Lobby is the true Terrorist state
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Posted by: enzolima on Jul 4, 2006 4:18 AM   
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"Meanwhile, the humanitarian crisis Israel has created in the occupied territories hovers below the radar for most Americans."

It's no accident that the U.S. media will never criticize Israel save for Pat Buchanon, who is not a blind follower of the Israel first crowd. (Oh yes, I forgot,Pat's and anti-semite for putting America's interests first and not being afraid of The Lobby.) The Israel Lobby distorts and controls all discourse relating to Israel by using AIPAC, the Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute as the debate shaping arm twisting enforcers who threaten any U.S. politician with certain high profile public attacks and affronts to their next election. The dreaded anti-Semite label hovers over anyone who dares say Israel is an abomination of nations who continuosly threatens and attacks it neighbors, has multitudes of illegal weapons of mass destruction and that it refuses to allow internation inspections or join any non-proliferation treaties, subjects it's citizens to forced poverty, travel restrictions, dehumanizing roadblocks, limited water rights, no commerce, and withholds tax revenu due it by effectively stealing all of it's money. Israel abuses,bombs indiscriminately and murders it's own citizens. Israel does all this and more under the guise of saying it has a right to defend itself agaisnt the poorest and most impoverished people inhabiting the region all the while by using it's U.S. financed and supported military and recieving 10 billion dollars a year, on average since 1985, of free U.S.taxpayer money. No, no U.S. politician can say these things. But I can. And most Americans know the truth.

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» One more loving liberal Posted by: knocko
» why do yopu hate Israel? Posted by: Burton

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time to move
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Posted by: knocko on Jul 4, 2006 4:47 AM   
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the Palestinians need to read history and realize they are not very special. basically a Palestinian state is impractical. stringing them along like Bush, the EU and the UN let alone the Arab states have done for 60 yrs is ridiculous. they need to literally move on, like most ethnic groups in the world have done at one point in their history. The Jews aren't guaranteed that area forever, nor are the Palestinians. For now, a Palestinian state is impractical, and the billions wasted on it so far would be better spent in relocation assistance.

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» RE: time to move Posted by: taxidave
» RE: time to move Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: time to move Posted by: cold2touch

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asherah
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Posted by: asherah on Jul 4, 2006 6:00 AM   
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Israel has become the 51st state of the US. We provide them about $100 million a day, mostly in arms, and allow them to ignore the UN and Human Rights international laws. It is unspeakably sad that the children of the Nazi Holocaust have become the terrorists who keep millions of Palestinians behind an Apartheid Wall, imprisoned into Banthu-style communities, separated from family, from pastureland, from jobs, trapped on the very land that they own. What would it take for Americans to care, to boycott Israeli goods, to speak truth to this overwhelmingly evil power?

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» RE: America First! Posted by: enzolima
» RE: asherah - Yes Posted by: symcokid
» hot air is not evidence Posted by: knocko

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some interesting characters posting today
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Posted by: cold2touch on Jul 4, 2006 6:22 AM   
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In particular, knocko seems to take the darwinist road (I hope he believes in biological evolution too) in saying so what, genocide and other shit happens, get used to it.
Predators are strong (and somehow progressive) and therefore have every right to destroy the weak, and in this case the darwinist function has strong Israel righfully devouring weak Palestine and in a thousand years it will be irrelevant.
If so, we don't need bother about serial killers, pedophiles, drug dealers and mafia at home, they are strong and should be encouraged to exercise their predatory rights.
Got a family knocko?
Think about it.
Do you freak out when your kid complains about bullying at school?
If charity begins at home does it also end at home?
When Roman centurions nailed Jesus to the cross, they were merely exercising their prerogative, who cares 2000 years later?

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» Darwin is not a Liberal Posted by: knocko
» RE: Darwin is not a Liberal Posted by: cold2touch
» Fantasy Island Posted by: knocko

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perfectclue
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Posted by: Perfectclue on Jul 4, 2006 7:31 AM   
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ISRAEL'S PROBLEM IS NOT ONLY ISRAEL'S PROBLEM BUT AMERIKA'S PROBLEM WHICH BOTH SUPPORT FASCIST FOREIGN POLICIES, COLONIAL POLICIES, RACIST POLICIES, APARTHEID POLICIES, AND TWO WESTERN COUNTRIES WHICH LEARNED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE HOLOCAUST OR FASCISM AND THE ROLE OF CLASS OLIGARCHY, CAPITALISM TO A CLASS IDEOLOGY, FASCISM, WITH ITS IDEOLOGICAL THUGS!!! CLASS MERCENARIES....NAZI JEWS AND NEOCON NAZIS, ALONG WITH THEIR LIBERAL APPEASERS OF FASCISM AND ZIONISM DESERVE A BIG SIEG HEIL!!!!!!---PERFECT CLUE

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» Whazzat? Posted by: knocko
» RE: perfectclue Posted by: codingguy
» RE: perfectclue Posted by: woodford54
» RE: perfectclue Posted by: jonwilson

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another story MSM missed reporting
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Posted by: wawa on Jul 4, 2006 7:51 AM   
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The worlds eyes are rightly focused on the oppression in Gaza but are blind by lack of media attention to the illegal wall that continues to imprison and oppress Bethlehem.


On Tuesday, the 27th of June 2006, the Israeli bulldozers guarded with armed personnel started cutting and uprooting olive trees in preparation for the continuing construction of the segregation Wall.

This area is known as the Cremisan area and it has the only remaining forest in the city. It is a most fertile agricultural land which provides the main source of income to most of the farmers in the city. The Cremisan area is also one of the very few recreational sites in the city where children play, home to a winery , two monasteries and a kindergarten. Constructing the illegal segregation Wall in this area will separate the city and its citizens from its northern part and deprive the right of the citizens to use their lands and deny any possibility for the city to expand.

"The Wall is a collective punishment and a human right violation. Israel through its construction opposes the peace objectives, the International laws and UN resolutions and the will of the International community to give peace and stability in the region. Therefore, we ask the peace loving people of the world, and the International community to immediately interfere and stop these Israeli activities in Beit Jala city, that has suffered a lot from land confiscation, leaving the city with only 4500 dunums from original 14500 dunums."-Eng. Samia Zeit and Ms. Nisreen Kunkar –can be reached for further information: Tel: +972 2 274 2601

PLEASE PHONE AND FAX your comments
WHITE HOUSE COMMENTS LINE: 202-456-1111
WHITE HOUSE SWITCHBOARD: 202-456-1414
WHITE HOUSE FAX: 202-456-2461


In solidarity for human rights and justice we can achieve peace.

"We have it in our power to begin the world again."-Tom Paine

But we the people all must DO SOMETHING!!!

public service from the
.org
WeAreWideAwake

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What gets to me the most
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Posted by: mokidugway on Jul 4, 2006 8:03 AM   
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is the overt racism. It's not even remotely disguised. In an attempt to understand how this recent mess in Gaza happened, I just happened to go into Ha'aertz's website and spent a few hours hanging out there reading the talkback posts in amazement and disgust. I won't even bother to give any passing examples, because some supporter of Israel is going to write in and tell me (a) the comment isn't racist because it's true, or (b) the comment is quite tame compared to what gets said about Jews by Arabs and Europeans everyday.

But I do want to focus on a recurring statement, that Palestinian women give birth to children just so there can be more martyrs for the cause and get payouts from the Islamic world to boot once their children die.

That's so disgusting and pathetic and sad. And not, by the way, of the women.

You know what, when this horrible racist propaganda comes from Israelis I can almost understand, because I do have sympathy for people who caught in a battle most of them don't want, with no end in sight.

But when it comes from outsiders, I wonder who they think they are kidding. This is the way the Klan talks. These were the kind of myths people told to justify slavery. "Oh, they don't care none if they're separated from their kids. They don't have maternal feelings. They're more like animals, you see."

Disgusting.

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» RE: What gets to me the most Posted by: Rolomax
» Don't get me wrong, please Posted by: Rolomax
» huh? what? Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: huh? what? Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: huh? what? Posted by: mokidugway
» Post More! Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: Post More! Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: Post More! Posted by: enzolima
» RE: Post More! Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: What gets to me the most Posted by: codingguy
» RE: What gets to me the most Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: What gets to me the most Posted by: codingguy

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Children of Nazi- Victims?
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Posted by: User280 on Jul 4, 2006 8:55 AM   
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Unfortunately Isreal is not ruled by the children of Jewish victims of the Nazi-Holocaust. Israel is ruled today by the Zionists, whose fathers instigated the WWI and financed Hitler and the WWII, those fathers who were never ever threatened by the Holocaust; and who are now trying to achieve their next goal: WWIII. Apart from that, the Zionists practically own the US by owning the banks constituting the Federal Reserve.

About the Gaza incident: Who can be sure, that Israel is NOT behind this matter, since it's primarily them, who refuse a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem- which they - the Zionists - have created firsthand. It was not the settlers in the Exodus, going to Palestine after WWII, it was the terrorists going with them and starting a violent armed fight, first against the British, and then against the Palestinians. Always pretending to give the deprived Holocaust victims a new home - BS. They fought for their own interest. They used the compensation they got from Germany - at least in part - to get more and more influence in the U.S. They made Tel Aviv the place, were the U.S. decisions on Israel were made. Today they more or less own the public opinion in the U.S. It's to a great part, what constitutes US-Style to-day, e.g:
US-style Democracy = The stirrups for Plutocracy.
US-style Governance = Arrogance
US-style Perception = Deception
US-style Economy = Hegemony
US-style Prevention = Pre-emption
US-style Welfare = Economic Warfare
US-style Environmental Protection = Depletion
US-style Globalisation = Exploitation
US-style Integration = Usurpation
US-style Partnership = Self-proclaimed superiority
US-style Primus Inter Pares = Primus supra minores

First Class Rogue State = The US – Since WWII no other State has caused and instigated so many armed and violent conflicts, and disregarded most of the democratic rules she pretends to defend.

AND THE REST OF THE WORLD JUST WATCHES!

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Israel and the Little Mindless Bible Nuts
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Posted by: eyeman on Jul 4, 2006 9:48 AM   
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Blind Support for Apartheid Israel is the wrong strategy for the US and for the Jewish people. In the long term, Israel will only survive in an ocean of Muslims if she makes peace with them, not unilateral withdrawals” and not Security fences”.
Our Blind support of Israel Gave us Terrorism, Gave us Ben Laden.
We went to Iraq partly for oil and partly because Saddam’s ego with too dangerous for Israel.
We are probably going to Iran before Bush term is over, for the same reason.
Israel returned the favor. They gave us torture experts for Guantannmo and Abu Ghraib. They gave us Alan Dershwitz to make torture a moral imperative.
And we are going along like little mindless bible nuts. Oh yaah. God granted them superiority and God hates the savage Palestinians. Let us exterminate all of them and get it over with.
I am afraid it is not going to work that way.

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» Ten Rounds for the Prize Posted by: knocko

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where is the outrage?
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Posted by: David S. on Jul 4, 2006 10:11 AM   
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I typically agree with most things I read on Alternet, and am not a knee-jerk supporter OR critic of Israel - I try to call it like I see it - but this latest missive against Israel got me to thinking - when are you going to take Hamas to the mat? I'm not holding my breath for an AlterNet writer come up a tagline that reads like this:

"The devious, well-planned Palestinian attack on southern Israel threatens to drive legions of Israelis to "jihad."

Clearly, there is a power imbalance. Clearly, Israel is the stronger of the two sides (but the 4th strongest military in the world? Be real....)

That said - does the Palestinian government REALLY bear no responsibility for its behavior? It's just OK for them to kill innocent teenagers with impunity? I mean, you rightfully condemn Israel for killing innocents - but I see no outrage when it comes to innocent Israelis being similarly terrorized.

Do you just not support Israel's right to exist, either? Do you really think it doesn't matter that Hamas refuses to do so?

This knee-jerk, Israel is an evil, apartheid state stuff is just ridiculous.

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» RE: where is the outrage? Posted by: eyeman
» misplaced outrage Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: misplaced outrage Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: misplaced outrage Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: misplaced outrage Posted by: Ratskii
» RE: where is the outrage? Posted by: hip2besq
» RE: where is the outrage? Posted by: User280
» Secret Agent Man Posted by: knocko

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Brief history of modern Israel.
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Posted by: RhodesVan3000 on Jul 4, 2006 10:20 AM   
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Israel was created by western colonial powers to destroy arab nationalism. This also allowed Europe to finish the holocaust by moving most of the surviors out of Europe into Palastine. The UK made Israel an atomic weapons state. The Anglo Americans have stopped the UN from inforcing resolutions for a two state solution.
Bush gave Israel the go ahead for the invasion of Gaza just a few weeks ago to destroy Hamas. The abduction of the IDF soldier was run by Mosad. IDF is going to allow the killing of their soldier in order to justify attacking Syria. Guns of August anyone?

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Oil geopolitics and the Likud-Hamas conflict
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jul 4, 2006 10:54 AM   
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Israel is a messed up religious state that has more in common with Saudi Arabia then it does with the U.S.A - which is to say, quite a bit - similar levels of financial entanglements with US investment banks and funds, for example. The US sure loves theocratic puppet regimes - easier to keep the domestic population under control that way, and who cares what they call themselves? As long as they obey the orders of the rabbi or the cleric or the priest, that is.

Take Israel - if an Israeli citizen marries a Palestinian, they have to leave the country - they lose their citizenship. Why are we supporting a religious state that defines what religion its citizens can belong to? The same goes for Saudi Arabia, which is a religious monarchy, arguably more repressive then Israel (and which, incidentally, is a lot like the kind of state that Hamas would like to set up if it could).

Israel's actions make one think that human beings have no collective memory. I mean, rounding people up in ghettos - you would think that would be anathema to a "Jewish state" - you think they'd remember the ghettos of Warsaw, and the events that transpired afterwards - you'd think! Instead, the cycle of religious racist abuse continues unabated.

The conclusion seems to be that the last thing the Israeli leaders want is a peaceful conclusion to the conflict, which could also be said of Hamas. I'd say cut off aid to the Israelis, (we could use that 3 billion a year for alternative energy research and development), and do the same with the Saudis. That will never happen because of the US geostragic and economic interests in our Middle East colonies - Israel is a critical pressure point for allowing the US to infuence the situation in the world's last rich oilfields.

Anyway, Israel and Palestine, the US doesn't give a damn what happens to your citizens, and neither does Osama bin Ladin. You are just a bunch of political puppets, used by various players for their purposes, and your lives are worth about as much as those of Midwestern corn-fed cows to US policymakers - probably less, since cows can be sold at a tidy profit. The US establishment goal is control of the oilfields of the Middle East, by any means necessary. Israel has been a useful tool in this effort, so they get the cash.

The fact of the matter is that Likud and Hamas feed off of each other in the same way that the Iranian clerics and Saddam Hussein fed off of each other in the Iran-Iraq war, and in the same way Hitler and Stalin used each other to consolidate their personal power. Until the religious extremists are defeated and the oil colonists are kicked out, there will be no hope of peace in the Middle East. The remaining rational people in the Middle East are beset on all sides - but keep trying.

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» The Hatfields and the McCoys Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Might be right Posted by: Burton

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you people are racist idiots who don't know history
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Posted by: sharonJ on Jul 4, 2006 12:28 PM   
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Can you name the only democratic country in the Middle East? It's Israel. It's strange that everyone compares it to Nazi Germany--but it's not strange if you think about that in terms of racist bigotry. Why is it that every ethnic and religious group in the world is entitled to a national identity except the Jews? You morons also don't know history. For every Arab you claim lost a home during the Israeli-Arab wars (always started by the Arabs, in case you idiots forgot), an equal number of Jews were forced out of their homes in Arab countries. No one mentions those refugees. I'm sick and tired of all of you and of Alternet, for hosting such trash. All I ever see is Israel-bashing and the rest of you look the other way when it comes to Muslim atrocities in every other part of the world.

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» Might doesn't make right. Posted by: RhodesVan3000
» RE: Israel is no democracy Posted by: enzolima
» RE: Israel is no democracy Posted by: codingguy
» A question for enzolima Posted by: Burton

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RE: Israel's Gaza Problem
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Posted by: Joshua Holland on Jul 4, 2006 1:35 PM   
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I'm not sure to which "shitface" you're referring, but as a point of fact, we've suspended all aid to the PA.

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RE: Keep up w/the news
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Posted by: enzolima on Jul 4, 2006 2:20 PM   
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You are pretty stupid for not knowing the facts and your use of the word "shitface" applies to yourself. Only, if I were to use such crass language, which I do not, I'd call you a shitHEAD. I think shitHEAD matches the content of that thing dangling precariously erect on top of your neck. But that's not something I'd say when trying to make a point.

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RE: Jews control the American media
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Posted by: enzolima on Jul 4, 2006 5:18 PM   
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I'm Jewish and I don't control anything. You make a blanket statment and while it is crude and unsophisticated you are not entirely wrong. But money and corporate power contorl the media. Not all Jews are part of the right-wing Neo-Con Israel Lobby. As, I'm sure, not all white people are as crude and unsophisticated as you seem.

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RE: Jews do not control the American media: Captialists/shareholders do.
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Posted by: knocko on Jul 4, 2006 7:14 PM   
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The major media are publically owned companies. To the extnet they are "controlled", they are controlled by their audiences, since most magazines and newspapers, as well as TV shows do not survive long after initial showings. If people don't read or see something, advertisers shy away, and the plug is pulled, regardless of the background of the executive du jour. Media of course have some Jewish executives. They have nonJewish exectuives. Big media need highly educated, articulate people in management. Jewish people, who have higher than average educational attainment and a strong tradition of excellence in writing and speaking, traditionally work in media as do well-educated people of various backgrounds. To some extent, there is a higher than average representation of Jews in the media entertainment business precisely because in some traditional fields like banking and big time corporate law and some areas of investments were antiSemitic until only a generation ago. Thus Jews went into academia and media, and areas of law and medicine where barriers were not as high.

Education has been an integral part of Jewish culture for thousands of years, being tied into the idea that every man(and today woman) should be literate in Torah and scholarship, in part to be able to make intelligent interpretations. Education is part of Jewish Culture; literacy is almost a religious obligation. Secular Jews may not go to pray, but many retain the cultural reverance for reading and historical study.

Some Asian strata and even Islamic groups place similar stress on study and literacy. One can also look to the old custom, not so prevalent now, of Irish families devoting a son to the priesthood, that person being the most educated person in the family.

The broad smear that Jews "control" the media is a traditional antiSemitic shibboleth that Adolph Hitler droned on about in Mein Kampf and in his tedious and superficial speeches given up to the day of his pathetic death.

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Why history will keep repeating itself
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Posted by: humanity101 on Jul 4, 2006 8:10 PM   
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It is unfortunate that the Holocaust victims forgot all about history and turned around to inflict pain and suffering onto another group of people. This is why you don't want to scream at your child because he or she will do the same to other kids. These idiots of history only understand the language of force and violence. I am pissed because it's my tax dollars that supply these pathetic religious nuts with weapons to rain down on the heads of other human beings. They can fire missiles at cars, bridges, power plants, offices, and bulldoze down people's houses and it's ok, but when the Palestinians blow up their buses and restaurants, it's called "terrorism". Bullshit!!! For some unknown reasons, the free American made weapons somehow carry higher moral values than the home-made ones? Go figure! When people have no hopes and are desperate, it is a logical thing to do. If they had tanks and missiles and fighter jets, they wouldn't blow themselves up, wouldn't they? Nobody wants to kill themselves if they have a choice. There is such things as the "self-preservation" principle. I am pissed and there's nothing I can do. Just getting pissed off by the ugliness of injustice. Jews does control this country. No one dares say one thing negative about the State of Israel in the media. It is a fact. It sucks. They will slap you with the "anti-semitism" label and your political career is over.

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» Some truth here Posted by: Burton

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I thought Israel is White. Your link is pathetic man. America belongs to all Americans, not just Whi
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Posted by: humanity101 on Jul 4, 2006 8:53 PM   
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While I am against the injustice caused by the Israelis, I am not against Jews. It should be for the interest of All America, not just White.

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People, keep the discussion civil please. Nobody wins with name calling.
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Posted by: humanity101 on Jul 4, 2006 8:58 PM   
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Don't let your emotions get the better of you. Have respect for others on the blog. Foul language won't help anybody.

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Ignorant Israel Bashers
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Posted by: Lenny L on Jul 5, 2006 1:00 AM   
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I am amazed at the absolute ignorance of all the Israel bashing comments on this thread ( as well as the article itself.)
I always considered myself a leftist foe of Sharon and the settlers, a supporter of the peace movement in Israel, and I'm critical of the civil rights that Arabs have in Israel, but you guys really have your heads in your butts to be honest.

Hamas is committed to destroying Israel and has been lobbing rockets over the border for months. What would the US do if Mexico or Canada was pelting the border with rockets! Have Israeli rockets targeted militants in Gaza - yes. What are they supposed to do - wait till they blow up a shopping center? Now Hamas militants are kidnapping soldiers and just lobbed another longer range rocket into central Israel. Hamas is basically declaring war.
How would any other nation in the world respond to this.

Frankly the Palestinians could have ended this entire business and had a state 30 years ago by unambiguously asking for peace and recognizing Israel. Israel leaves the Gaza and starts planning to disengage from the West bank and what do the Palestinians do - elect Hamas. Talk about lost opportunities. Then they cry when Israel won't stop the occupation. There's a saying in Israel- "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to lose an opportunity."
Do you have any doubt what the Palestianians would do if the Israeli's left the West Bank? Do you really believe rocket attacks and suicide bombing would cease. They would have the full support of the Arab world and Israel would be constantly besieged.
Wake up.

The poor Palestinians have no one to blame but themselves for their situation. They are reaping the seeds sown by their great national hero Arafat who destroyed their hopes for nationhood by creating a corrupt and undemocratic autocracy filled with dozens of competing armed militias now nearly on the verge of their own civil war.

Is Israel to blame as well - of course. But this business of blaming of blaming everything on the violent evil Israelis is total hogwash.

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» RE: Ignorant Israel Bashers Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Ignorant Israel Bashers Posted by: farhada
» RE: Ignorant Israel Bashers...Farhad Posted by: mikespindell

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Ignorant Israel Bashers
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Posted by: Lenny L on Jul 5, 2006 1:01 AM   
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I am amazed at the absolute ignorance of all the Israel bashing comments on this thread ( as well as the article itself.)
I always considered myself a leftist foe of Sharon and the settlers, a supporter of the peace movement in Israel, and I'm critical of the civil rights that Arabs have in Israel, but you guys really have your heads in your butts to be honest.

Hamas is committed to destroying Israel and has been lobbing rockets over the border for months. What would the US do if Mexico or Canada was pelting the border with rockets! Have Israeli rockets targeted militants in Gaza - yes. What are they supposed to do - wait till they blow up a shopping center? Now Hamas militants are kidnapping soldiers and just lobbed another longer range rocket into central Israel. Hamas is basically declaring war.
How would any other nation in the world respond to this.

Frankly the Palestinians could have ended this entire business and had a state 30 years ago by unambiguously asking for peace and recognizing Israel. Israel leaves the Gaza and starts planning to disengage from the West bank and what do the Palestinians do - elect Hamas. Talk about lost opportunities. Then they cry when Israel won't stop the occupation. There's a saying in Israel- "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to lose an opportunity."
Do you have any doubt what the Palestianians would do if the Israeli's left the West Bank? Do you really believe rocket attacks and suicide bombing would cease. They would have the full support of the Arab world and Israel would be constantly besieged.
Wake up.

The poor Palestinians have no one to blame but themselves for their situation. They are reaping the seeds sown by their great national hero Arafat who destroyed their hopes for nationhood by creating a corrupt and undemocratic autocracy filled with dozens of competing armed militias now nearly on the verge of their own civil war.

Is Israel to blame as well - of course. But this business of blaming everything on the violent evil Israelis is total hogwash.

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» RE: Ignorant Israel Bashers Posted by: Ronaldo

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Israel and it's blind followers are ignorent to the truth
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Posted by: enzolima on Jul 5, 2006 4:57 AM   
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Israel has one of the most powerful miltary machines in the world. Palestinians have to resort to throw rocks and blow themselves up. It is a war. Israel indiscriminatley kills hundreds of Arabs, mostly children by the way, who are civilians. They will bomb an entire city block and kill scores of people and say they were trying to kill a terrorist. Now, you tell me, if you were a Palsestinianwith no access to helicopters, tanks, missles, humvees, jet fighters and so on, If you were Palestinian, how would YOU defend yourself against and occupying army who denies you the right to a job, healthcare, travel, food and water? How would you defend yourself against a brutal dictatorial regime that refuses to acknwoledge your right to exist? That rerats you like vermin and denies you the decency to take your wife to the hospital when she is having a child. Checkpoints, roadblocks,sepoeration walls - how would you react to all of this?
I'll tellyou how, you'd strap on a bomb becasue it's the only weapon you have and you'd walk into a maret and blow it the hell up and hope that youy death makes an impact because it's the only kind of hope you have. Israel IS to blame. You reap what you sow, Israel was created out of brutality, massacres and violence and it shall always get what it gives until it makes peace. Israel is the racist and terrorist nation we should be bombing - not Iraq.

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» MILITARY FACTS AND FIGURES Posted by: Scientz
» How would I react? Posted by: Burton

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Downward Spiral
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Posted by: antiapathy on Jul 5, 2006 7:18 AM   
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I think the main problem is that both sides target innocent civillians. Israel kills innocents with their loosely "targeted killings" and massively oppresses farmers and workers by bulldozing orchards and homes. And they shoot children who throw rocks at them, but I guess throwing rocks means you are no longer innocent. The Palestinians respond by bombing a bus or night club or market with a "martyr". And the cycle repeats itself, with no apparent way out.

So both sides can rationalize it all you want, the point is they are BOTH WRONG. There is no justification for taking the lives of the innocent. What kind of monsters would call that justice? (and as an aside, what kind of monster would invade a country and kill tens of thousands of their civillians and justify it with lies?)

The whole issue makes me sick. I am ashamed that America enables and promotes the escalation of violence through military aid to Israel. I'm ashamed that my congressman does not care, and only replies with a form letter when I ask him about it. I am ashamed for Palestinians who think that blowing up children and elderly people on a public bus will make them a martyr and give them eternal glory. I am especially ashamed that both sides refuse to elect or rally behind leaders who pledge to end the cycle of violence.

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» RE: Downward Spiral Posted by: enzolima
» RE: Downward Spiral..... Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Downward Spiral..... Posted by: User280
» RE: Downward Spiral.....User280 Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Downward Spiral.....User280 Posted by: codingguy
» RE: Downward Spiral..... Posted by: codingguy

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A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds
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Posted by: mikespindell on Jul 5, 2006 10:37 AM   
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To de-construct Ms. Cohn's rather obvious article would be a waste of time since it is more polemic than a comment on the facts of the situation. She of course has the right to express her opinions. Its' appearance on Alternet is also quite predictable.

The current view of Israel held by many Progressives and bloggers on Alternet are also predictable and no doubt understandable given the context of Liberal and Progressive thought on foreign affairs, since WWII. That context is the collapse of European Imperialism, the excesses of the Cold War and the rise of US economic imperialism as the new paradigm of the old imperialistic game.

Our reactions as Liberals and Progressives to this new paradigm was support of indigenous independence movements throughout the world and support for the recognition and liberation of ethnic populations. Originally, most of us supported the creation of the State of Israel, especially in light of the attacks upon it by the Arab world at its' inception. This was true especially because those attacks were spearheaded by such representatives of European Imperialism as the Arab Legion, which was led by a British General.

In 1956 the Egyptians seized the Suez Canal and denied Israeli shipping rights, Britain and France attacked Egypt, admittedly for their own imperialistic purposes, but were joined by Israel to prevent the economic disaster of being denied use of the Canal. The US in its Cold War competition with the USSR for Egypts' favor and sensing the possibility of taking over Franco/British oil interests, backed a UN resolution rebuking the attacking party's. At this point reaction on the left was mixed and confused especially because it was an Eisenhower policy, with esteem for Israel slipping.

Nevertheless, support for Israel still was high on the left because the Israeli's were perceived as underdogs. The 1967 attack by all the Arab nations that was not only defeated handily, but led to the capture of arab territory, changed Israel's underdog status for many on the Left. A public relations campaign, that began after that war, financed by the Saudi's, coopted the term Palestinian for certain Arabs. This accomplished the purpose of creating a new indigenous group of the downtrodden, which we know appeals to us on the Left and begs our support.

Since then the escalating Saudi/Arab public relations campaign has created in the minds of many Leftists another "oppressed" group needing support against a more powerful oppressive enemy. Sadly, the stupidity of the Likud's support for settlement of the West Bank in the 70's has fueled the effect of this propaganda. The so-called occupied territories should have been returned to Jordan (who lost them in 1967) and left the Jordani's to deal with the indigenous population, led by Egyptian Yassir Arafat.

Perhaps the most telling fact of the whole situation is that the Jordani's don't want their territory back. In fact Jordan had expelled its pseudo-Palestinian population after that population, led by Arafat, tried a coup that failed. The truth is that none of the Arab nations want their "Palestinian Brothers" in their country because their bretheran had proved to be too wild to contain. Their "wildness" is understandable since they have been oppressed, manipulated and kept in poverty by all sides in this conflict, most especially their Arab bretheran.

The antipathy towards Israel by my fellow leftists has some basis in truth since Israel's best interests would have been served by vacating the territories as soon as possible. However, to be blind to the history of this conflict and to see it terms of "Israeli's Bad/Palestinian's good" is to abandon your critical faculties and react as pawns of agitprop.

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Fine people
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Posted by: jsa9 on Jul 5, 2006 11:34 AM   
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When Israel left the Gaza, they left as a good will gesture 100s of large working perfect greenhouses. Filled with fruit and vegtables. What did the bright [morons] do when they got to their new,free, clean, given to them homes?. They burned them ALL down. Very smart. Giving back the land to Hamas[we want to kill ALL Jews] wasnt very smart either. If Hamas keeps doing this crap, then let Israel do whatever they want. Now that your fine people elected you {Hamas}, you can save a LOT of your people from a very sad fate if you would JUST leave Israel ALONE. For once, do something the rest of the sane world could be proud of. Its called the right thing. If you really believe Israel is going to lie down and take your crap---Find a very sfe place to hide.

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» RE: Fine people Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Fine people Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Fine people Posted by: User280
» RE: Fine people Posted by: codingguy
» RE: Fine people......User 280 Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Fine people Posted by: jsa9

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Add this to the list of BushCo's impeachable offenses
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Posted by: mtngoat on Jul 5, 2006 2:06 PM   
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The Foreign Assistance Act prohibits the United States from rendering assistance to the government of any country " which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights."

For decades, Israel has been a greater violator of human rights and international laws than even Saddam Hussein's Iraq was (which we also supplied with weapons when it suited the desire to exacerbate tensions in the Iran/Iraq conflict).

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» You're on sucker Posted by: knocko
» RE: hahaha Posted by: enzolima
» RE: hahaha Posted by: codingguy

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Clearly biased opinions
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Posted by: Must have been the Roses on Jul 5, 2006 2:36 PM   
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"During the preceding weeks, Israel instigated events that resulted in the capture of the Israeli soldier."

A bit simplistic, don't you think? As if we can just ignore the last 100 years of history in the region. I agree with the conclusions of the author, but her one-sidedness and biased representation of the facts; and failure to even acknowledge there are two viewpoints is counterproductive and will just enrage those who have a different viewpoint and likely reinforce there is no other legitimate viewpoint to those who agree with her.

I can see Israel's viewpoint to use force to protect it's borders against a people who elected an international terrorist organization to head its government. We should not judge from the safe sidelines without, at least, acknowledging Israel's legitmacy in defending itself and acting on it's known intelligence.

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» I totally agree Posted by: Must have been the Roses
» some differences maybe Posted by: Must have been the Roses

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Ypur Link
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Posted by: mikespindell on Jul 5, 2006 4:30 PM   
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Went to your link trying to find where I could sign onto the conspiracy. Couldn't find it. Do you have the address or phone number?

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IS IT AT ALL SURPRISING??
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Posted by: avalondwellers on Jul 6, 2006 8:05 AM   
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Israel has committed unspeakable crimes against the impoverished Palestinian people who simply lack the ways and means to defend and protect themselves. Yet again, Israel starts to pound Gaza with one clear objective in mind: destabilise the democratic ellected Hamas government. Not surprisingly, no outcries were heard from the so-called International Community, colluded with the US and its purposes. Until when will the world be reminded again and again of the attrocities of the 2nd WW against the Jews and treat them as eternal victims who deserve our respect when they themselves inflict suffering and deprivation to their neighbours? After all they claim they have been through, the Jews should have become standard-bearers of peace, acceptance and benevolence. What we testify in awe is exactly the opposite. Pitty, really...

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» racist remark Posted by: Must have been the Roses
» RE: racist remark Posted by: codingguy
» why elect Hamas? Posted by: Must have been the Roses

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How to end all this
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Posted by: Burton on Jul 7, 2006 7:45 AM   
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If the Palestinians want to stop the Israeli invasion, then here are two things they can do which will cost them absolutely nothing:

1) End their terrorism against Israel and the rest of the world (terrorism which has resulted in the murder of Americans, by the way).

2) Recognize the right of Israel to exist.

Not so hard, is it?

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» RE: How to end all this Posted by: srqwolf
» RE: How to end all this Posted by: Burton
» RE: How to end all this Posted by: jonwilson

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Liberals call Republicans Nazis yet call for the destruction of Israel.
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Posted by: jonwilson on Jul 8, 2006 2:02 AM   
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I think it is hilarious that liberals compare everyone to Nazis yet at the same time are totally for the destruction of Israel.

Ironic, don't ya think?

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Cyndi
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Posted by: cynndikennemer on Jul 8, 2006 11:33 AM   
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Pardon me if I am wrong, but didn't the Palestinians cross the border and do damage and destruction along with killing and taking a hostage? It looks to me like they are already in a state of Jihad. Countries all over the world have adapted to new borders, but for some strange reason the Muslim states can't allow a postage stamp sized Israel to exist in their neighborhood.
The Israelis have accepted a great number of refugees from Arab nations into their society but the vast expanse of Arab and Muslim nations have accepted virtually no Israli refugees.

It seems to me that Israel is the good neighbor defending themselves against thugs. They are the ones having INNOCENT people blown up in busses and Pizza Parlors while the Israeli Army at least shoots at the Ringleaders and troublemakers. I don not see the Israelis blowing up random pedestrians.

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Cyndi
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Posted by: cynndikennemer on Jul 8, 2006 11:55 AM   
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No they were not. We can go on ALL DAY pointing fingers at someone who has done them wrong. I know they don't teach you in public school about the Muslims sacking Tours years before the crusaders retaliated. I am sorry there are scumbags in ALL WALKS OF LIFE. I am sorry that 5% of the Southerners held slaves. I am also sorry that America and England were among the first to do away with slavery. I am sorry that some of the African chiefs sold members of conquered tribes and someties their own people to slave traders. I am sorry that the Middle East is still the Largest dealer in the slave trade(gasp). I am sorry that, in the process of trying to overthrow a murderous Warlord who starved his own people by diverting aid, we had American soldiers killed because the President of the USA did not want to send in backup(see Somalia, thanks Bill). I am sorry that we don't put people in jail for requesting the killing of the 'other color' by a celebrity(see Sista SoulJah). I am sorry that some schools in America FORCE chiildren to learn about and go through religious excercises and take on a 'Converted' name but refuse to allow the mere RECOGNITION of their chosen faith(see Public Schools).

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Cyndi
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Posted by: cynndikennemer on Jul 8, 2006 12:06 PM   
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The Israelis have had this land for over 50 years and have accepted countless Arab refugees. They respond to people bombing Pizza Parlors(undercover anti-Palestinian operations,I´m sure) and Busses(mobile Anti-Palestinian operations, I'm sure). The Israelis SHOOT BACK(the HORROR). If I had accepted some guys relatives into my family and treated them as such does that mean I should let him come in and kill my family because he is my neighbor. I would welcome him into my home(with a shotgun). If we follow your logic then a roaming gang of poor kids killing and robbing should get no punishment for their disregard for life because someone has the land their Grandfather had.
Imminent domain victims should rejoice in your open-mindedness. :p

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» RE: Corrections Posted by: eyeman
» RE: Corrections Posted by: codingguy
» RE: Corrections Posted by: eyeman
» RE: Corrections Posted by: eyeman
» to eyeman and user280 Posted by: codingguy
» RE: to eyeman and user280...redux Posted by: mikespindell

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I can see why there is a conflict
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Posted by: Burton on Jul 8, 2006 4:52 PM   
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When you look at how quickly the debate on this topic has degenerated, you can see how there can be an endless conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

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Dawn of the Brain Dead
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Posted by: srqwolf on Jul 9, 2006 6:53 AM   
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As I predicted at the early stages of this 'discussion', the right-wing nutters, likudnik lurkers, and variously ill-informed cyber cretins have now taken over these threads.

So, now it is now just one more collection of Fox-esque rants, prattling on in that tiresomely juvenile American style that might be called 'talk-radio white'. Well, I leave you to it.

Oh - be sure to thank the IDF and Jesus for keeping you all safe.

Cheers then,
Marcus

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» What is the solution? Posted by: Burton
» RE: Dawn of the Brain Dead Posted by: usfbear
» RE: Dawn of the Brain Dead...Marcus Posted by: mikespindell

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can you compare Israeli policy to Nazi policy?
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Posted by: zelosfsu81 on Jul 10, 2006 12:06 PM   
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you be the judge......
lets look at pics from gaza
http://www.pbase.com/yalop/misc_photos
http://www.sabellaphoto.com/gaza2.htm

let's now look at pics from nazi germany

http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/

http://www.remember.org/3/auschwitz-camp-death-nazi.html

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RE: Israeli Thugs- Sparta
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Posted by: zelosfsu81 on Jul 12, 2006 6:59 PM   
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hey YANIRA06_66 . Can you explain why Israel Is hell bent on causing MAYHEM and HAVOC in the ME? Why does Israel want to attack, torture, kill and subjugate muslims in the ME? What do they gain by such illegal, racist, and unethical behavior? Can you provide a substantive list of such behavior in the middle east? You need to provide at least 7-8!! instances such as the Lebanon 24 hr bombardment 1973 before you can make broad and sweepoing generalizations about Israel's legal status and their outrageous unprovoked acts of aggression across the ME towards the muslim populations. The whole "see this - I TOLD YOU SO!" arguement isn't working. Convince me! ISRAEL BAAAAD - ARAB COUNTRIES GOOODDD!!!
Let me guess YANIRA06_66 your not an anti-semite, your an anti zionist right?

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Israel Shmisrael
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Posted by: Rolomax on Jul 4, 2006 2:27 AM   
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Who the hell cares about Israel? I don't.

Before you get me wrong (which you probably will) I should probably state that it is not a part of America.

It isn't.

No, Really.

Why do we care about it? When I think about it, they are about as bad as the damned Nazis that they keep educating us about through TV and movies.

I'm sick of the middle east, and I'm sick of the reason that people are so terrified of middle easterners.

The bastards need to go back to the pre 1967 borders. Then maybe there will be some peace.

Then, America can start solving its own problems, which are very many.

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» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: symcokid
» I'm sick of hearing about your bible. Posted by: RhodesVan3000
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: yellow
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: guerillaTHOUGHTterrorist
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: paschn
» RE: Israel Shmisrael.....paschn Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: DennisDalrymple
» RE: Israel Shmisrael Posted by: jonwilson
» Please.. Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: Please.. Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: Please.. Posted by: Rolomax

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eerie silence
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Posted by: chutzpah on Jul 4, 2006 2:40 AM   
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The world played dumb for decades concerning apartheid in south africa.
Whites played (or still play) dumb for years while blacks were being enslaved and lynched.
Germans played dumb when hitler started his racial hygiene.
The world played dumb when A bombs where dropped on hiroshima and nagasaki.
Now the world is playing dumb concerning the palestinians and you are all surprised. pls what else is new.

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» RE: eerie silence....Chutzpah Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: eerie silence Posted by: cynndikennemer

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The shame of our time
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Posted by: farhada on Jul 4, 2006 3:30 AM   
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The sad state of civilians in Gaza, and the overall acceptance of the this horrendous acts of inhumanity among the world leaders is another example of how low we have got.

The news around the world is full of the picture of the 19 years old Israeli soldier who was captured (I would not call it kidnapped since he is a soldier on duty in the war zone), but no one is talking about the 10s of thousands of Palestinians who spend years in Israeli prison for no reason.

The disgraceful acts of the Israeli government and the shameful acceptance of their crime is a black mark in the history of the world.

How pathetic of the so called Arab leaders who are so castrated that they can not even have the guts to stand up and say, enough is enough, and put pressure on world leaders to stop supporting this disgusting crime against people who's only crime is that they were born Palestinians.

God this is sickening,
/Farhad Abdolian

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» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: knocko
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: Rolomax
» Palestinians are bulldozers Posted by: Burton
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: farhada
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: symcokid
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: farhada
» Cut to the chase Posted by: farhada
» RE: Cut to the chase...Farhad Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: Northernlight
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: knocko
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: deltadancer
» RE: The shame of our time Posted by: symcokid
» Palistine Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Palistine Posted by: farhada
» RE: Palistine Posted by: enzolima
» RE: Palistine Posted by: farhada
» RE: Palistine....Farhad Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Palistine....Farhad Posted by: farhada
» RE: Palistine....Farhad Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Palistine Posted by: king_mob
» RE: Palistine Posted by: Herestratus
» RE: Palistine.....Herestratus Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: The shame of our time...Farhad Posted by: mikespindell
» Please read the news Mike Posted by: farhada
» RE: Please read the news Mike Posted by: mikespindell

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mistakes
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Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 4, 2006 3:58 AM   
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The Bushies make the most mistakes in the world with Israel coming in as #2 in disaster creation. There are lots of other mistake generators but these two take the cake and leave others holding bags crammed full of despair and death.

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» RE: mistakes Posted by: knocko
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» RE: mistakes Posted by: knocko
» RE: mistakes Posted by: paschn
» RE: mistakes Posted by: woodford54
» RE: mistakes Posted by: codingguy

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Israel, with the U.S. Israel Lobby is the true Terrorist state
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Posted by: enzolima on Jul 4, 2006 4:18 AM   
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"Meanwhile, the humanitarian crisis Israel has created in the occupied territories hovers below the radar for most Americans."

It's no accident that the U.S. media will never criticize Israel save for Pat Buchanon, who is not a blind follower of the Israel first crowd. (Oh yes, I forgot,Pat's and anti-semite for putting America's interests first and not being afraid of The Lobby.) The Israel Lobby distorts and controls all discourse relating to Israel by using AIPAC, the Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute as the debate shaping arm twisting enforcers who threaten any U.S. politician with certain high profile public attacks and affronts to their next election. The dreaded anti-Semite label hovers over anyone who dares say Israel is an abomination of nations who continuosly threatens and attacks it neighbors, has multitudes of illegal weapons of mass destruction and that it refuses to allow internation inspections or join any non-proliferation treaties, subjects it's citizens to forced poverty, travel restrictions, dehumanizing roadblocks, limited water rights, no commerce, and withholds tax revenu due it by effectively stealing all of it's money. Israel abuses,bombs indiscriminately and murders it's own citizens. Israel does all this and more under the guise of saying it has a right to defend itself agaisnt the poorest and most impoverished people inhabiting the region all the while by using it's U.S. financed and supported military and recieving 10 billion dollars a year, on average since 1985, of free U.S.taxpayer money. No, no U.S. politician can say these things. But I can. And most Americans know the truth.

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» One more loving liberal Posted by: knocko
» why do yopu hate Israel? Posted by: Burton

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time to move
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Posted by: knocko on Jul 4, 2006 4:47 AM   
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the Palestinians need to read history and realize they are not very special. basically a Palestinian state is impractical. stringing them along like Bush, the EU and the UN let alone the Arab states have done for 60 yrs is ridiculous. they need to literally move on, like most ethnic groups in the world have done at one point in their history. The Jews aren't guaranteed that area forever, nor are the Palestinians. For now, a Palestinian state is impractical, and the billions wasted on it so far would be better spent in relocation assistance.

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» RE: time to move Posted by: taxidave
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» RE: time to move Posted by: cold2touch

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asherah
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Posted by: asherah on Jul 4, 2006 6:00 AM   
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Israel has become the 51st state of the US. We provide them about $100 million a day, mostly in arms, and allow them to ignore the UN and Human Rights international laws. It is unspeakably sad that the children of the Nazi Holocaust have become the terrorists who keep millions of Palestinians behind an Apartheid Wall, imprisoned into Banthu-style communities, separated from family, from pastureland, from jobs, trapped on the very land that they own. What would it take for Americans to care, to boycott Israeli goods, to speak truth to this overwhelmingly evil power?

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» RE: America First! Posted by: enzolima
» RE: asherah - Yes Posted by: symcokid
» hot air is not evidence Posted by: knocko

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some interesting characters posting today
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Posted by: cold2touch on Jul 4, 2006 6:22 AM   
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In particular, knocko seems to take the darwinist road (I hope he believes in biological evolution too) in saying so what, genocide and other shit happens, get used to it.
Predators are strong (and somehow progressive) and therefore have every right to destroy the weak, and in this case the darwinist function has strong Israel righfully devouring weak Palestine and in a thousand years it will be irrelevant.
If so, we don't need bother about serial killers, pedophiles, drug dealers and mafia at home, they are strong and should be encouraged to exercise their predatory rights.
Got a family knocko?
Think about it.
Do you freak out when your kid complains about bullying at school?
If charity begins at home does it also end at home?
When Roman centurions nailed Jesus to the cross, they were merely exercising their prerogative, who cares 2000 years later?

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» Darwin is not a Liberal Posted by: knocko
» RE: Darwin is not a Liberal Posted by: cold2touch
» Fantasy Island Posted by: knocko

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perfectclue
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Posted by: Perfectclue on Jul 4, 2006 7:31 AM   
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ISRAEL'S PROBLEM IS NOT ONLY ISRAEL'S PROBLEM BUT AMERIKA'S PROBLEM WHICH BOTH SUPPORT FASCIST FOREIGN POLICIES, COLONIAL POLICIES, RACIST POLICIES, APARTHEID POLICIES, AND TWO WESTERN COUNTRIES WHICH LEARNED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE HOLOCAUST OR FASCISM AND THE ROLE OF CLASS OLIGARCHY, CAPITALISM TO A CLASS IDEOLOGY, FASCISM, WITH ITS IDEOLOGICAL THUGS!!! CLASS MERCENARIES....NAZI JEWS AND NEOCON NAZIS, ALONG WITH THEIR LIBERAL APPEASERS OF FASCISM AND ZIONISM DESERVE A BIG SIEG HEIL!!!!!!---PERFECT CLUE

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» Whazzat? Posted by: knocko
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another story MSM missed reporting
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Posted by: wawa on Jul 4, 2006 7:51 AM   
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The worlds eyes are rightly focused on the oppression in Gaza but are blind by lack of media attention to the illegal wall that continues to imprison and oppress Bethlehem.


On Tuesday, the 27th of June 2006, the Israeli bulldozers guarded with armed personnel started cutting and uprooting olive trees in preparation for the continuing construction of the segregation Wall.

This area is known as the Cremisan area and it has the only remaining forest in the city. It is a most fertile agricultural land which provides the main source of income to most of the farmers in the city. The Cremisan area is also one of the very few recreational sites in the city where children play, home to a winery , two monasteries and a kindergarten. Constructing the illegal segregation Wall in this area will separate the city and its citizens from its northern part and deprive the right of the citizens to use their lands and deny any possibility for the city to expand.

"The Wall is a collective punishment and a human right violation. Israel through its construction opposes the peace objectives, the International laws and UN resolutions and the will of the International community to give peace and stability in the region. Therefore, we ask the peace loving people of the world, and the International community to immediately interfere and stop these Israeli activities in Beit Jala city, that has suffered a lot from land confiscation, leaving the city with only 4500 dunums from original 14500 dunums."-Eng. Samia Zeit and Ms. Nisreen Kunkar –can be reached for further information: Tel: +972 2 274 2601

PLEASE PHONE AND FAX your comments
WHITE HOUSE COMMENTS LINE: 202-456-1111
WHITE HOUSE SWITCHBOARD: 202-456-1414
WHITE HOUSE FAX: 202-456-2461


In solidarity for human rights and justice we can achieve peace.

"We have it in our power to begin the world again."-Tom Paine

But we the people all must DO SOMETHING!!!

public service from the
.org
WeAreWideAwake

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What gets to me the most
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Posted by: mokidugway on Jul 4, 2006 8:03 AM   
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is the overt racism. It's not even remotely disguised. In an attempt to understand how this recent mess in Gaza happened, I just happened to go into Ha'aertz's website and spent a few hours hanging out there reading the talkback posts in amazement and disgust. I won't even bother to give any passing examples, because some supporter of Israel is going to write in and tell me (a) the comment isn't racist because it's true, or (b) the comment is quite tame compared to what gets said about Jews by Arabs and Europeans everyday.

But I do want to focus on a recurring statement, that Palestinian women give birth to children just so there can be more martyrs for the cause and get payouts from the Islamic world to boot once their children die.

That's so disgusting and pathetic and sad. And not, by the way, of the women.

You know what, when this horrible racist propaganda comes from Israelis I can almost understand, because I do have sympathy for people who caught in a battle most of them don't want, with no end in sight.

But when it comes from outsiders, I wonder who they think they are kidding. This is the way the Klan talks. These were the kind of myths people told to justify slavery. "Oh, they don't care none if they're separated from their kids. They don't have maternal feelings. They're more like animals, you see."

Disgusting.

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» RE: What gets to me the most Posted by: Rolomax
» Don't get me wrong, please Posted by: Rolomax
» huh? what? Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: huh? what? Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: huh? what? Posted by: mokidugway
» Post More! Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: Post More! Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: Post More! Posted by: enzolima
» RE: Post More! Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: What gets to me the most Posted by: codingguy
» RE: What gets to me the most Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: What gets to me the most Posted by: codingguy

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Children of Nazi- Victims?
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Posted by: User280 on Jul 4, 2006 8:55 AM   
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Unfortunately Isreal is not ruled by the children of Jewish victims of the Nazi-Holocaust. Israel is ruled today by the Zionists, whose fathers instigated the WWI and financed Hitler and the WWII, those fathers who were never ever threatened by the Holocaust; and who are now trying to achieve their next goal: WWIII. Apart from that, the Zionists practically own the US by owning the banks constituting the Federal Reserve.

About the Gaza incident: Who can be sure, that Israel is NOT behind this matter, since it's primarily them, who refuse a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem- which they - the Zionists - have created firsthand. It was not the settlers in the Exodus, going to Palestine after WWII, it was the terrorists going with them and starting a violent armed fight, first against the British, and then against the Palestinians. Always pretending to give the deprived Holocaust victims a new home - BS. They fought for their own interest. They used the compensation they got from Germany - at least in part - to get more and more influence in the U.S. They made Tel Aviv the place, were the U.S. decisions on Israel were made. Today they more or less own the public opinion in the U.S. It's to a great part, what constitutes US-Style to-day, e.g:
US-style Democracy = The stirrups for Plutocracy.
US-style Governance = Arrogance
US-style Perception = Deception
US-style Economy = Hegemony
US-style Prevention = Pre-emption
US-style Welfare = Economic Warfare
US-style Environmental Protection = Depletion
US-style Globalisation = Exploitation
US-style Integration = Usurpation
US-style Partnership = Self-proclaimed superiority
US-style Primus Inter Pares = Primus supra minores

First Class Rogue State = The US – Since WWII no other State has caused and instigated so many armed and violent conflicts, and disregarded most of the democratic rules she pretends to defend.

AND THE REST OF THE WORLD JUST WATCHES!

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Israel and the Little Mindless Bible Nuts
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Posted by: eyeman on Jul 4, 2006 9:48 AM   
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Blind Support for Apartheid Israel is the wrong strategy for the US and for the Jewish people. In the long term, Israel will only survive in an ocean of Muslims if she makes peace with them, not unilateral withdrawals” and not Security fences”.
Our Blind support of Israel Gave us Terrorism, Gave us Ben Laden.
We went to Iraq partly for oil and partly because Saddam’s ego with too dangerous for Israel.
We are probably going to Iran before Bush term is over, for the same reason.
Israel returned the favor. They gave us torture experts for Guantannmo and Abu Ghraib. They gave us Alan Dershwitz to make torture a moral imperative.
And we are going along like little mindless bible nuts. Oh yaah. God granted them superiority and God hates the savage Palestinians. Let us exterminate all of them and get it over with.
I am afraid it is not going to work that way.

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» Ten Rounds for the Prize Posted by: knocko

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where is the outrage?
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Posted by: David S. on Jul 4, 2006 10:11 AM   
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I typically agree with most things I read on Alternet, and am not a knee-jerk supporter OR critic of Israel - I try to call it like I see it - but this latest missive against Israel got me to thinking - when are you going to take Hamas to the mat? I'm not holding my breath for an AlterNet writer come up a tagline that reads like this:

"The devious, well-planned Palestinian attack on southern Israel threatens to drive legions of Israelis to "jihad."

Clearly, there is a power imbalance. Clearly, Israel is the stronger of the two sides (but the 4th strongest military in the world? Be real....)

That said - does the Palestinian government REALLY bear no responsibility for its behavior? It's just OK for them to kill innocent teenagers with impunity? I mean, you rightfully condemn Israel for killing innocents - but I see no outrage when it comes to innocent Israelis being similarly terrorized.

Do you just not support Israel's right to exist, either? Do you really think it doesn't matter that Hamas refuses to do so?

This knee-jerk, Israel is an evil, apartheid state stuff is just ridiculous.

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» RE: where is the outrage? Posted by: eyeman
» misplaced outrage Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: misplaced outrage Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: misplaced outrage Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: misplaced outrage Posted by: Ratskii
» RE: where is the outrage? Posted by: hip2besq
» RE: where is the outrage? Posted by: User280
» Secret Agent Man Posted by: knocko

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Brief history of modern Israel.
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Posted by: RhodesVan3000 on Jul 4, 2006 10:20 AM   
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Israel was created by western colonial powers to destroy arab nationalism. This also allowed Europe to finish the holocaust by moving most of the surviors out of Europe into Palastine. The UK made Israel an atomic weapons state. The Anglo Americans have stopped the UN from inforcing resolutions for a two state solution.
Bush gave Israel the go ahead for the invasion of Gaza just a few weeks ago to destroy Hamas. The abduction of the IDF soldier was run by Mosad. IDF is going to allow the killing of their soldier in order to justify attacking Syria. Guns of August anyone?

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Oil geopolitics and the Likud-Hamas conflict
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jul 4, 2006 10:54 AM   
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Israel is a messed up religious state that has more in common with Saudi Arabia then it does with the U.S.A - which is to say, quite a bit - similar levels of financial entanglements with US investment banks and funds, for example. The US sure loves theocratic puppet regimes - easier to keep the domestic population under control that way, and who cares what they call themselves? As long as they obey the orders of the rabbi or the cleric or the priest, that is.

Take Israel - if an Israeli citizen marries a Palestinian, they have to leave the country - they lose their citizenship. Why are we supporting a religious state that defines what religion its citizens can belong to? The same goes for Saudi Arabia, which is a religious monarchy, arguably more repressive then Israel (and which, incidentally, is a lot like the kind of state that Hamas would like to set up if it could).

Israel's actions make one think that human beings have no collective memory. I mean, rounding people up in ghettos - you would think that would be anathema to a "Jewish state" - you think they'd remember the ghettos of Warsaw, and the events that transpired afterwards - you'd think! Instead, the cycle of religious racist abuse continues unabated.

The conclusion seems to be that the last thing the Israeli leaders want is a peaceful conclusion to the conflict, which could also be said of Hamas. I'd say cut off aid to the Israelis, (we could use that 3 billion a year for alternative energy research and development), and do the same with the Saudis. That will never happen because of the US geostragic and economic interests in our Middle East colonies - Israel is a critical pressure point for allowing the US to infuence the situation in the world's last rich oilfields.

Anyway, Israel and Palestine, the US doesn't give a damn what happens to your citizens, and neither does Osama bin Ladin. You are just a bunch of political puppets, used by various players for their purposes, and your lives are worth about as much as those of Midwestern corn-fed cows to US policymakers - probably less, since cows can be sold at a tidy profit. The US establishment goal is control of the oilfields of the Middle East, by any means necessary. Israel has been a useful tool in this effort, so they get the cash.

The fact of the matter is that Likud and Hamas feed off of each other in the same way that the Iranian clerics and Saddam Hussein fed off of each other in the Iran-Iraq war, and in the same way Hitler and Stalin used each other to consolidate their personal power. Until the religious extremists are defeated and the oil colonists are kicked out, there will be no hope of peace in the Middle East. The remaining rational people in the Middle East are beset on all sides - but keep trying.

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» The Hatfields and the McCoys Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Might be right Posted by: Burton

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you people are racist idiots who don't know history
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Posted by: sharonJ on Jul 4, 2006 12:28 PM   
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Can you name the only democratic country in the Middle East? It's Israel. It's strange that everyone compares it to Nazi Germany--but it's not strange if you think about that in terms of racist bigotry. Why is it that every ethnic and religious group in the world is entitled to a national identity except the Jews? You morons also don't know history. For every Arab you claim lost a home during the Israeli-Arab wars (always started by the Arabs, in case you idiots forgot), an equal number of Jews were forced out of their homes in Arab countries. No one mentions those refugees. I'm sick and tired of all of you and of Alternet, for hosting such trash. All I ever see is Israel-bashing and the rest of you look the other way when it comes to Muslim atrocities in every other part of the world.

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» Might doesn't make right. Posted by: RhodesVan3000
» RE: Israel is no democracy Posted by: enzolima
» RE: Israel is no democracy Posted by: codingguy
» A question for enzolima Posted by: Burton

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RE: Israel's Gaza Problem
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Posted by: Joshua Holland on Jul 4, 2006 1:35 PM   
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I'm not sure to which "shitface" you're referring, but as a point of fact, we've suspended all aid to the PA.

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RE: Keep up w/the news
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Posted by: enzolima on Jul 4, 2006 2:20 PM   
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You are pretty stupid for not knowing the facts and your use of the word "shitface" applies to yourself. Only, if I were to use such crass language, which I do not, I'd call you a shitHEAD. I think shitHEAD matches the content of that thing dangling precariously erect on top of your neck. But that's not something I'd say when trying to make a point.

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RE: Jews control the American media
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Posted by: enzolima on Jul 4, 2006 5:18 PM   
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I'm Jewish and I don't control anything. You make a blanket statment and while it is crude and unsophisticated you are not entirely wrong. But money and corporate power contorl the media. Not all Jews are part of the right-wing Neo-Con Israel Lobby. As, I'm sure, not all white people are as crude and unsophisticated as you seem.

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RE: Jews do not control the American media: Captialists/shareholders do.
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Posted by: knocko on Jul 4, 2006 7:14 PM   
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The major media are publically owned companies. To the extnet they are "controlled", they are controlled by their audiences, since most magazines and newspapers, as well as TV shows do not survive long after initial showings. If people don't read or see something, advertisers shy away, and the plug is pulled, regardless of the background of the executive du jour. Media of course have some Jewish executives. They have nonJewish exectuives. Big media need highly educated, articulate people in management. Jewish people, who have higher than average educational attainment and a strong tradition of excellence in writing and speaking, traditionally work in media as do well-educated people of various backgrounds. To some extent, there is a higher than average representation of Jews in the media entertainment business precisely because in some traditional fields like banking and big time corporate law and some areas of investments were antiSemitic until only a generation ago. Thus Jews went into academia and media, and areas of law and medicine where barriers were not as high.

Education has been an integral part of Jewish culture for thousands of years, being tied into the idea that every man(and today woman) should be literate in Torah and scholarship, in part to be able to make intelligent interpretations. Education is part of Jewish Culture; literacy is almost a religious obligation. Secular Jews may not go to pray, but many retain the cultural reverance for reading and historical study.

Some Asian strata and even Islamic groups place similar stress on study and literacy. One can also look to the old custom, not so prevalent now, of Irish families devoting a son to the priesthood, that person being the most educated person in the family.

The broad smear that Jews "control" the media is a traditional antiSemitic shibboleth that Adolph Hitler droned on about in Mein Kampf and in his tedious and superficial speeches given up to the day of his pathetic death.

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Why history will keep repeating itself
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Posted by: humanity101 on Jul 4, 2006 8:10 PM   
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It is unfortunate that the Holocaust victims forgot all about history and turned around to inflict pain and suffering onto another group of people. This is why you don't want to scream at your child because he or she will do the same to other kids. These idiots of history only understand the language of force and violence. I am pissed because it's my tax dollars that supply these pathetic religious nuts with weapons to rain down on the heads of other human beings. They can fire missiles at cars, bridges, power plants, offices, and bulldoze down people's houses and it's ok, but when the Palestinians blow up their buses and restaurants, it's called "terrorism". Bullshit!!! For some unknown reasons, the free American made weapons somehow carry higher moral values than the home-made ones? Go figure! When people have no hopes and are desperate, it is a logical thing to do. If they had tanks and missiles and fighter jets, they wouldn't blow themselves up, wouldn't they? Nobody wants to kill themselves if they have a choice. There is such things as the "self-preservation" principle. I am pissed and there's nothing I can do. Just getting pissed off by the ugliness of injustice. Jews does control this country. No one dares say one thing negative about the State of Israel in the media. It is a fact. It sucks. They will slap you with the "anti-semitism" label and your political career is over.

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» Some truth here Posted by: Burton

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I thought Israel is White. Your link is pathetic man. America belongs to all Americans, not just Whi
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Posted by: humanity101 on Jul 4, 2006 8:53 PM   
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While I am against the injustice caused by the Israelis, I am not against Jews. It should be for the interest of All America, not just White.

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People, keep the discussion civil please. Nobody wins with name calling.
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Posted by: humanity101 on Jul 4, 2006 8:58 PM   
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Don't let your emotions get the better of you. Have respect for others on the blog. Foul language won't help anybody.

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Ignorant Israel Bashers
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Posted by: Lenny L on Jul 5, 2006 1:00 AM   
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I am amazed at the absolute ignorance of all the Israel bashing comments on this thread ( as well as the article itself.)
I always considered myself a leftist foe of Sharon and the settlers, a supporter of the peace movement in Israel, and I'm critical of the civil rights that Arabs have in Israel, but you guys really have your heads in your butts to be honest.

Hamas is committed to destroying Israel and has been lobbing rockets over the border for months. What would the US do if Mexico or Canada was pelting the border with rockets! Have Israeli rockets targeted militants in Gaza - yes. What are they supposed to do - wait till they blow up a shopping center? Now Hamas militants are kidnapping soldiers and just lobbed another longer range rocket into central Israel. Hamas is basically declaring war.
How would any other nation in the world respond to this.

Frankly the Palestinians could have ended this entire business and had a state 30 years ago by unambiguously asking for peace and recognizing Israel. Israel leaves the Gaza and starts planning to disengage from the West bank and what do the Palestinians do - elect Hamas. Talk about lost opportunities. Then they cry when Israel won't stop the occupation. There's a saying in Israel- "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to lose an opportunity."
Do you have any doubt what the Palestianians would do if the Israeli's left the West Bank? Do you really believe rocket attacks and suicide bombing would cease. They would have the full support of the Arab world and Israel would be constantly besieged.
Wake up.

The poor Palestinians have no one to blame but themselves for their situation. They are reaping the seeds sown by their great national hero Arafat who destroyed their hopes for nationhood by creating a corrupt and undemocratic autocracy filled with dozens of competing armed militias now nearly on the verge of their own civil war.

Is Israel to blame as well - of course. But this business of blaming of blaming everything on the violent evil Israelis is total hogwash.

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» RE: Ignorant Israel Bashers Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Ignorant Israel Bashers Posted by: farhada
» RE: Ignorant Israel Bashers...Farhad Posted by: mikespindell

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Ignorant Israel Bashers
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Posted by: Lenny L on Jul 5, 2006 1:01 AM   
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I am amazed at the absolute ignorance of all the Israel bashing comments on this thread ( as well as the article itself.)
I always considered myself a leftist foe of Sharon and the settlers, a supporter of the peace movement in Israel, and I'm critical of the civil rights that Arabs have in Israel, but you guys really have your heads in your butts to be honest.

Hamas is committed to destroying Israel and has been lobbing rockets over the border for months. What would the US do if Mexico or Canada was pelting the border with rockets! Have Israeli rockets targeted militants in Gaza - yes. What are they supposed to do - wait till they blow up a shopping center? Now Hamas militants are kidnapping soldiers and just lobbed another longer range rocket into central Israel. Hamas is basically declaring war.
How would any other nation in the world respond to this.

Frankly the Palestinians could have ended this entire business and had a state 30 years ago by unambiguously asking for peace and recognizing Israel. Israel leaves the Gaza and starts planning to disengage from the West bank and what do the Palestinians do - elect Hamas. Talk about lost opportunities. Then they cry when Israel won't stop the occupation. There's a saying in Israel- "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to lose an opportunity."
Do you have any doubt what the Palestianians would do if the Israeli's left the West Bank? Do you really believe rocket attacks and suicide bombing would cease. They would have the full support of the Arab world and Israel would be constantly besieged.
Wake up.

The poor Palestinians have no one to blame but themselves for their situation. They are reaping the seeds sown by their great national hero Arafat who destroyed their hopes for nationhood by creating a corrupt and undemocratic autocracy filled with dozens of competing armed militias now nearly on the verge of their own civil war.

Is Israel to blame as well - of course. But this business of blaming everything on the violent evil Israelis is total hogwash.

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» RE: Ignorant Israel Bashers Posted by: Ronaldo

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Israel and it's blind followers are ignorent to the truth
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Posted by: enzolima on Jul 5, 2006 4:57 AM   
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Israel has one of the most powerful miltary machines in the world. Palestinians have to resort to throw rocks and blow themselves up. It is a war. Israel indiscriminatley kills hundreds of Arabs, mostly children by the way, who are civilians. They will bomb an entire city block and kill scores of people and say they were trying to kill a terrorist. Now, you tell me, if you were a Palsestinianwith no access to helicopters, tanks, missles, humvees, jet fighters and so on, If you were Palestinian, how would YOU defend yourself against and occupying army who denies you the right to a job, healthcare, travel, food and water? How would you defend yourself against a brutal dictatorial regime that refuses to acknwoledge your right to exist? That rerats you like vermin and denies you the decency to take your wife to the hospital when she is having a child. Checkpoints, roadblocks,sepoeration walls - how would you react to all of this?
I'll tellyou how, you'd strap on a bomb becasue it's the only weapon you have and you'd walk into a maret and blow it the hell up and hope that youy death makes an impact because it's the only kind of hope you have. Israel IS to blame. You reap what you sow, Israel was created out of brutality, massacres and violence and it shall always get what it gives until it makes peace. Israel is the racist and terrorist nation we should be bombing - not Iraq.

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» MILITARY FACTS AND FIGURES Posted by: Scientz
» How would I react? Posted by: Burton

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Downward Spiral
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Posted by: antiapathy on Jul 5, 2006 7:18 AM   
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I think the main problem is that both sides target innocent civillians. Israel kills innocents with their loosely "targeted killings" and massively oppresses farmers and workers by bulldozing orchards and homes. And they shoot children who throw rocks at them, but I guess throwing rocks means you are no longer innocent. The Palestinians respond by bombing a bus or night club or market with a "martyr". And the cycle repeats itself, with no apparent way out.

So both sides can rationalize it all you want, the point is they are BOTH WRONG. There is no justification for taking the lives of the innocent. What kind of monsters would call that justice? (and as an aside, what kind of monster would invade a country and kill tens of thousands of their civillians and justify it with lies?)

The whole issue makes me sick. I am ashamed that America enables and promotes the escalation of violence through military aid to Israel. I'm ashamed that my congressman does not care, and only replies with a form letter when I ask him about it. I am ashamed for Palestinians who think that blowing up children and elderly people on a public bus will make them a martyr and give them eternal glory. I am especially ashamed that both sides refuse to elect or rally behind leaders who pledge to end the cycle of violence.

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» RE: Downward Spiral Posted by: enzolima
» RE: Downward Spiral..... Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Downward Spiral..... Posted by: User280
» RE: Downward Spiral.....User280 Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Downward Spiral.....User280 Posted by: codingguy
» RE: Downward Spiral..... Posted by: codingguy

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A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds
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Posted by: mikespindell on Jul 5, 2006 10:37 AM   
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To de-construct Ms. Cohn's rather obvious article would be a waste of time since it is more polemic than a comment on the facts of the situation. She of course has the right to express her opinions. Its' appearance on Alternet is also quite predictable.

The current view of Israel held by many Progressives and bloggers on Alternet are also predictable and no doubt understandable given the context of Liberal and Progressive thought on foreign affairs, since WWII. That context is the collapse of European Imperialism, the excesses of the Cold War and the rise of US economic imperialism as the new paradigm of the old imperialistic game.

Our reactions as Liberals and Progressives to this new paradigm was support of indigenous independence movements throughout the world and support for the recognition and liberation of ethnic populations. Originally, most of us supported the creation of the State of Israel, especially in light of the attacks upon it by the Arab world at its' inception. This was true especially because those attacks were spearheaded by such representatives of European Imperialism as the Arab Legion, which was led by a British General.

In 1956 the Egyptians seized the Suez Canal and denied Israeli shipping rights, Britain and France attacked Egypt, admittedly for their own imperialistic purposes, but were joined by Israel to prevent the economic disaster of being denied use of the Canal. The US in its Cold War competition with the USSR for Egypts' favor and sensing the possibility of taking over Franco/British oil interests, backed a UN resolution rebuking the attacking party's. At this point reaction on the left was mixed and confused especially because it was an Eisenhower policy, with esteem for Israel slipping.

Nevertheless, support for Israel still was high on the left because the Israeli's were perceived as underdogs. The 1967 attack by all the Arab nations that was not only defeated handily, but led to the capture of arab territory, changed Israel's underdog status for many on the Left. A public relations campaign, that began after that war, financed by the Saudi's, coopted the term Palestinian for certain Arabs. This accomplished the purpose of creating a new indigenous group of the downtrodden, which we know appeals to us on the Left and begs our support.

Since then the escalating Saudi/Arab public relations campaign has created in the minds of many Leftists another "oppressed" group needing support against a more powerful oppressive enemy. Sadly, the stupidity of the Likud's support for settlement of the West Bank in the 70's has fueled the effect of this propaganda. The so-called occupied territories should have been returned to Jordan (who lost them in 1967) and left the Jordani's to deal with the indigenous population, led by Egyptian Yassir Arafat.

Perhaps the most telling fact of the whole situation is that the Jordani's don't want their territory back. In fact Jordan had expelled its pseudo-Palestinian population after that population, led by Arafat, tried a coup that failed. The truth is that none of the Arab nations want their "Palestinian Brothers" in their country because their bretheran had proved to be too wild to contain. Their "wildness" is understandable since they have been oppressed, manipulated and kept in poverty by all sides in this conflict, most especially their Arab bretheran.

The antipathy towards Israel by my fellow leftists has some basis in truth since Israel's best interests would have been served by vacating the territories as soon as possible. However, to be blind to the history of this conflict and to see it terms of "Israeli's Bad/Palestinian's good" is to abandon your critical faculties and react as pawns of agitprop.

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Fine people
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Posted by: jsa9 on Jul 5, 2006 11:34 AM   
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When Israel left the Gaza, they left as a good will gesture 100s of large working perfect greenhouses. Filled with fruit and vegtables. What did the bright [morons] do when they got to their new,free, clean, given to them homes?. They burned them ALL down. Very smart. Giving back the land to Hamas[we want to kill ALL Jews] wasnt very smart either. If Hamas keeps doing this crap, then let Israel do whatever they want. Now that your fine people elected you {Hamas}, you can save a LOT of your people from a very sad fate if you would JUST leave Israel ALONE. For once, do something the rest of the sane world could be proud of. Its called the right thing. If you really believe Israel is going to lie down and take your crap---Find a very sfe place to hide.

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» RE: Fine people Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Fine people Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: Fine people Posted by: User280
» RE: Fine people Posted by: codingguy
» RE: Fine people......User 280 Posted by: mikespindell
» RE: Fine people Posted by: jsa9

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Add this to the list of BushCo's impeachable offenses
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Posted by: mtngoat on Jul 5, 2006 2:06 PM   
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The Foreign Assistance Act prohibits the United States from rendering assistance to the government of any country " which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights."

For decades, Israel has been a greater violator of human rights and international laws than even Saddam Hussein's Iraq was (which we also supplied with weapons when it suited the desire to exacerbate tensions in the Iran/Iraq conflict).

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» You're on sucker Posted by: knocko
» RE: hahaha Posted by: enzolima
» RE: hahaha Posted by: codingguy

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Clearly biased opinions
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Posted by: Must have been the Roses on Jul 5, 2006 2:36 PM   
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"During the preceding weeks, Israel instigated events that resulted in the capture of the Israeli soldier."

A bit simplistic, don't you think? As if we can just ignore the last 100 years of history in the region. I agree with the conclusions of the author, but her one-sidedness and biased representation of the facts; and failure to even acknowledge there are two viewpoints is counterproductive and will just enrage those who have a different viewpoint and likely reinforce there is no other legitimate viewpoint to those who agree with her.

I can see Israel's viewpoint to use force to protect it's borders against a people who elected an international terrorist organization to head its government. We should not judge from the safe sidelines without, at least, acknowledging Israel's legitmacy in defending itself and acting on it's known intelligence.

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» I totally agree Posted by: Must have been the Roses
» some differences maybe Posted by: Must have been the Roses

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Ypur Link
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Posted by: mikespindell on Jul 5, 2006 4:30 PM   
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Went to your link trying to find where I could sign onto the conspiracy. Couldn't find it. Do you have the address or phone number?

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IS IT AT ALL SURPRISING??
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Posted by: avalondwellers on Jul 6, 2006 8:05 AM   
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Israel has committed unspeakable crimes against the impoverished Palestinian people who simply lack the ways and means to defend and protect themselves. Yet again, Israel starts to pound Gaza with one clear objective in mind: destabilise the democratic ellected Hamas government. Not surprisingly, no outcries were heard from the so-called International Community, colluded with the US and its purposes. Until when will the world be reminded again and again of the attrocities of the 2nd WW against the Jews and treat them as eternal victims who deserve our respect when they themselves inflict suffering and deprivation to their neighbours? After all they claim they have been through, the Jews should have become standard-bearers of peace, acceptance and benevolence. What we testify in awe is exactly the opposite. Pitty, really...

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» racist remark Posted by: Must have been the Roses
» RE: racist remark Posted by: codingguy
» why elect Hamas? Posted by: Must have been the Roses

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How to end all this
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Posted by: Burton on Jul 7, 2006 7:45 AM   
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If the Palestinians want to stop the Israeli invasion, then here are two things they can do which will cost them absolutely nothing:

1) End their terrorism against Israel and the rest of the world (terrorism which has resulted in the murder of Americans, by the way).

2) Recognize the right of Israel to exist.

Not so hard, is it?

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» RE: How to end all this Posted by: srqwolf
» RE: How to end all this Posted by: Burton
» RE: How to end all this Posted by: jonwilson

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Liberals call Republicans Nazis yet call for the destruction of Israel.
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Posted by: jonwilson on Jul 8, 2006 2:02 AM   
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I think it is hilarious that liberals compare everyone to Nazis yet at the same time are totally for the destruction of Israel.

Ironic, don't ya think?

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Cyndi
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Posted by: cynndikennemer on Jul 8, 2006 11:33 AM   
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Pardon me if I am wrong, but didn't the Palestinians cross the border and do damage and destruction along with killing and taking a hostage? It looks to me like they are already in a state of Jihad. Countries all over the world have adapted to new borders, but for some strange reason the Muslim states can't allow a postage stamp sized Israel to exist in their neighborhood.
The Israelis have accepted a great number of refugees from Arab nations into their society but the vast expanse of Arab and Muslim nations have accepted virtually no Israli refugees.

It seems to me that Israel is the good neighbor defending themselves against thugs. They are the ones having INNOCENT people blown up in busses and Pizza Parlors while the Israeli Army at least shoots at the Ringleaders and troublemakers. I don not see the Israelis blowing up random pedestrians.

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Cyndi
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Posted by: cynndikennemer on Jul 8, 2006 11:55 AM   
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No they were not. We can go on ALL DAY pointing fingers at someone who has done them wrong. I know they don't teach you in public school about the Muslims sacking Tours years before the crusaders retaliated. I am sorry there are scumbags in ALL WALKS OF LIFE. I am sorry that 5% of the Southerners held slaves. I am also sorry that America and England were among the first to do away with slavery. I am sorry that some of the African chiefs sold members of conquered tribes and someties their own people to slave traders. I am sorry that the Middle East is still the Largest dealer in the slave trade(gasp). I am sorry that, in the process of trying to overthrow a murderous Warlord who starved his own people by diverting aid, we had American soldiers killed because the President of the USA did not want to send in backup(see Somalia, thanks Bill). I am sorry that we don't put people in jail for requesting the killing of the 'other color' by a celebrity(see Sista SoulJah). I am sorry that some schools in America FORCE chiildren to learn about and go through religious excercises and take on a 'Converted' name but refuse to allow the mere RECOGNITION of their chosen faith(see Public Schools).

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Cyndi
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Posted by: cynndikennemer on Jul 8, 2006 12:06 PM   
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The Israelis have had this land for over 50 years and have accepted countless Arab refugees. They respond to people bombing Pizza Parlors(undercover anti-Palestinian operations,I´m sure) and Busses(mobile Anti-Palestinian operations, I'm sure). The Israelis SHOOT BACK(the HORROR). If I had accepted some guys relatives into my family and treated them as such does that mean I should let him come in and kill my family because he is my neighbor. I would welcome him into my home(with a shotgun). If we follow your logic then a roaming gang of poor kids killing and robbing should get no punishment for their disregard for life because someone has the land their Grandfather had.
Imminent domain victims should rejoice in your open-mindedness. :p

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» RE: Corrections Posted by: eyeman
» RE: Corrections Posted by: codingguy
» RE: Corrections Posted by: eyeman
» RE: Corrections Posted by: eyeman
» to eyeman and user280 Posted by: codingguy
» RE: to eyeman and user280...redux Posted by: mikespindell

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I can see why there is a conflict
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Posted by: Burton on Jul 8, 2006 4:52 PM   
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When you look at how quickly the debate on this topic has degenerated, you can see how there can be an endless conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

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Dawn of the Brain Dead
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Posted by: srqwolf on Jul 9, 2006 6:53 AM   
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As I predicted at the early stages of this 'discussion', the right-wing nutters, likudnik lurkers, and variously ill-informed cyber cretins have now taken over these threads.

So, now it is now just one more collection of Fox-esque rants, prattling on in that tiresomely juvenile American style that might be called 'talk-radio white'. Well, I leave you to it.

Oh - be sure to thank the IDF and Jesus for keeping you all safe.

Cheers then,
Marcus

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» What is the solution? Posted by: Burton
» RE: Dawn of the Brain Dead Posted by: usfbear
» RE: Dawn of the Brain Dead...Marcus Posted by: mikespindell

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can you compare Israeli policy to Nazi policy?
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Posted by: zelosfsu81 on Jul 10, 2006 12:06 PM   
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you be the judge......
lets look at pics from gaza
http://www.pbase.com/yalop/misc_photos
http://www.sabellaphoto.com/gaza2.htm

let's now look at pics from nazi germany

http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/

http://www.remember.org/3/auschwitz-camp-death-nazi.html

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RE: Israeli Thugs- Sparta
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Posted by: zelosfsu81 on Jul 12, 2006 6:59 PM   
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hey YANIRA06_66 . Can you explain why Israel Is hell bent on causing MAYHEM and HAVOC in the ME? Why does Israel want to attack, torture, kill and subjugate muslims in the ME? What do they gain by such illegal, racist, and unethical behavior? Can you provide a substantive list of such behavior in the middle east? You need to provide at least 7-8!! instances such as the Lebanon 24 hr bombardment 1973 before you can make broad and sweepoing generalizations about Israel's legal status and their outrageous unprovoked acts of aggression across the ME towards the muslim populations. The whole "see this - I TOLD YOU SO!" arguement isn't working. Convince me! ISRAEL BAAAAD - ARAB COUNTRIES GOOODDD!!!
Let me guess YANIRA06_66 your not an anti-semite, your an anti zionist right?

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