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The Top 10 Power Brokers of the Religious Right
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What follows is a list of the nation’s Top Ten Religious Right groups, as determined by publicly available financial data and political prominence. Additional information describes the organizations’ leaders, funding and activities.
1. Christian Broadcasting Network
Founder, CEO and Director: The Rev. Pat Robertson
2004 Revenue: $186,482,060
Location: Virginia Beach, Va.
Web site: www.cbn.com
Overview: The Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN) airs Robertson’s “700 Club,” an incendiary daily mix of Pentecostal faith-healing, lifestyle advice and far-right politics. He calls church-state separation a “lie of the left” and thinks Christians like him should lead the world. With his withdrawal from the Christian Coalition in 2001, Robertson uses CBN as his primary political soapbox. The show, which according to Nielsen Media Research has 830,000 daily viewers, opens with a “newscast” that parrots Robertson’s views, often followed by commentary from the televangelist himself. Top leaders of the conservative movement regularly pontificate on the program, and Republican members of Congress appear to tout legislative goals.
Robertson, 76, has a history of controversy. His 1991 book The New World Order was based on a host of anti-Semitic sources, although Robertson has always been pro-Israel for end-times theological reasons. The same book opines that former presidents Jimmy Carter and George H.W. Bush may have been unwitting dupes for Lucifer. On his TV show, Robertson once charged that Methodists, Presbyterians and Episcopalians represent “the spirit of the Antichrist.” In a Sept. 13, 2001, diatribe, he asserted that the terrorist attacks on America happened because of the Supreme Court’s rulings in favor of church-state separation. In the ensuing controversy, Robertson shifted the blame to Jerry Falwell, who had been on the show with him.
Over the years, the failed presidential candidate has often dallied with brutal dictators. He celebrated Guatemala’s Pentecostal strongman Efrain Rios Montt, lauded Frederick Chiluba of Zambia as a model for American politicians, hunted for gold with Liberia’s Charles Taylor and did business with Mobutu Sese Seko of Zaire. (He was caught using relief airplanes owned by his charity, Operation Blessing, to ferry diamond-mining equipment in and out of Zaire.)
Despite all of this, Robertson retains a close relationship with the Republican Party establishment. Operation Blessing has received $1.5 million in taxpayer funding through the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives.
CBN is Robertson’s flagship tax-exempt operation. He also founded and runs the American Center for Law and Justice, a Religious Right legal group (see below); Operation Blessing and Regent University, a school offering degrees in law, business, journalism, theology and other disciplines. Added up, Robertson-related groups brought in $461,475,115 in tax-free donations in 2004.
Robertson Quote: “The fact that [the courts] are trying to ignore this country’s religious heritage is just horrible. They are taking our religion away from us under the guise of separation of church and state. There was never any intention that our government would be separate from God Almighty. Never, never, never in the history of this land did the founders of this country or those who came after them think that was the case.” (“700 Club,” July 19, 2005)
2. Focus on the Family
Founder and chairman: Dr. James C. Dobson
2005 Revenue: $137,848,520
Location: Colorado Springs, Colo.
Web site: www.family.org
Overview: Although sometimes mistakenly identified as a minister, James Dobson is a child psychologist who founded Focus on the Family in 1977. Dobson, 70, rose to national prominence after the release of his first book, Dare to Discipline, a controversial volume that lauded corporal punishment for children at a time when many child-rearing experts were recommending against it. He came to the attention of aides to President Ronald Reagan and during the 1980s served on various White House commissions, including a 1985-86 stint on Attorney General Edwin Meese’s Commission on Pornography.
From modest origins, FOF has expanded into a huge ministry with a worldwide presence. Dobson’s radio broadcasts are heard daily by an estimated five million Americans. According to its Web site, “Focus on the Family has…become an international organization with more than 74 different ministries requiring nearly 1,300 employees” with a “daily broadcast heard on over 6,000 facilities worldwide.” FOF produces 10 magazines that are mailed to 2.3 million people and responds to as many as 55,000 letters per week. The ministry also produces various DVDs, books, pamphlets and other materials. It has political affiliates in 32 states that lobby and monitor state legislation.
A product of the strict Church of the Nazarene, Dobson is a hardcore fundamentalist who refers to church-state separation as the “phantom” clause in the Constitution. He frequently lambastes gays, legal abortion and the teaching of evolution in public schools. FOF sponsors controversial “Love Won Out” conferences run by an “ex-gay” ministry that seeks to convert homosexuals into fundamentalist Christian heterosexuals.
Although he poses as an avuncular family counselor, Dobson and his empire spread Religious Right propaganda and extreme rhetoric. In a 1996 radio address, he attacked the concept of tolerance, calling it “kind of a watchword of those who reject the concepts of right and wrong….It’s kind of a desensitization to evil of all varieties.” Two years before that, an FOF magazine attacked the Girl Scouts for being agents of “humanism and radical feminism.”
More recently, Dobson lashed out at a pro-tolerance video produced for public schools that featured popular cartoon characters, among them SpongeBob SquarePants, because the group that produced it put a “tolerance pledge” on its Web site that included gays.
Dobson has promoted right-wing politics for a long time, but in 2004 he took the step of forming a more overtly political arm, Focus on the Family Action, and began personally endorsing candidates for public office. According to information on the FOF Action Web site, the group collected just under $25 million in 2005.
Figures such as these give Dobson major political clout. He regularly threatens Republicans with retaliation if they do not do his bidding and claims credit for knocking U.S. Sen. Tom Dashle (D-S.D.) out of the Senate in 2004. Dobson also issues regular threats to other Democratic senators representing “red states.” In June of 2004, during a visit to Colorado Springs to speak at the U.S. Air Force Academy, President George W. Bush took time out for a private half-hour meeting with Dobson.
Dobson Quote: “Do we as Christians need to be liked so badly that we choose to remain silent in response to the killing of babies, the spreading of homosexual propaganda to our children, the distribution of condoms and immoral advice to our teenagers, and the undermining of marriage as an institution? Would Jesus have ignored these wicked activities?... No, I am convinced that he would be the first to condemn sin in high places, and I doubt if he would have minced words in making the point.”(Christianity Today, June 19, 1995)
3. Coral Ridge Ministries
Founder and President: The Rev. D. James Kennedy
2005 Revenue: $39,253,882
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Web site: www.coralridge.org
Overview: D. James Kennedy, a former dance instructor who was converted to fundamentalist Christianity after hearing a sermon on the radio, founded Coral Ridge Ministries in 1974. Kennedy, pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church (PCA), is now seen on about 600 U.S. television stations on Sunday mornings. His “Coral Ridge Hour” mixes fundamentalism with strident attacks on public education, gays, evolution, legal abortion, “secular humanism” and other Religious Right targets.
Kennedy, 75, has a strong presence on radio as well through “Truths that Transform,” a daily half-hour commentary heard on 744 stations. In addition, he has authored several books that promote far-right views.
Kennedy is a big promoter of the “Christian nation” view of American history. Every year, his Center for Reclaiming America for Christ, hosts a major Religious Right conference in Fort Lauderdale. The event attracts a mix of activists and politicians. In 2006, Arkansas Gov. (and 2008 presidential hopeful) Mike Huckabee spoke.
In 1995, Kennedy decided he wanted a presence in Washington and opened the Center for Christian Statesmanship. The Center hosts regular events for Capitol Hill staffers to instruct them in the proper “biblical worldview” and works closely with far-right GOP lawmakers.
Kennedy Quote: “This is our land. This is our world. This is our heritage, and with God’s help, we shall reclaim this nation for Jesus Christ. And no power on earth can stop us.” (Character & Destiny: A Nation in Search of its Soul, 1997)
4. Alliance Defense Fund
President, CEO and General Counsel: Alan Sears
2004 Revenue: $17,921,146
Location: Scottsdale, Ariz.
Web site: www.alliancedefensefund.org
Overview: The Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) was founded in 1993 by a coalition of 30 Religious Right leaders, among them James Dobson, D. James Kennedy, Donald Wildmon and the late Marlin Maddoux and Bill Bright. The original idea was to create a funding pool that would subsidize the Religious Right’s courtroom activity, and as its Web site proclaims, “reclaim the legal system for Jesus Christ.” ADF head Alan Sears served under Reagan-era Attorney General Edwin Meese, leading the Meese Commission on Pornography.
While the ADF still supports lawsuits spearheaded by other groups, it has begun directly litigating in court as well. The organization also sends intimidating letters to government officials and public schools, containing thinly veiled threats to sue unless ADF demands are met. Last year, the group launched a campaign to derail the alleged “war on Christmas” and bragged that it had 800 attorneys standing by. (In the end, only one lawsuit was filed.)
Some ADF cases are filed merely to generate publicity. In 2005, the ADF sued a public school in California on behalf of a teacher who claimed he had been ordered to stop using the Declaration of Independence in class because of its reference to the “Creator.” The ADF arranged for intense media coverage of the case but quietly dropped the suit once it became obvious the teacher’s claims were not true.
Aside from threatening public schools, the ADF also diverts a lot of money into opposing same-sex marriage and what it calls the “radical homosexual agenda.” It also opposes legal abortion and supports cases filed by employees seeking the right to proselytize on the job.
The ADF sponsors regular training for lawyers under its National Litigation Academy. In exchange for free instruction, “each attorney pledges 450 hours of pro-bono time to the Body of Christ,” says the ADF Web site. More than 900 lawyers have reportedly participated. The group also sponsors Blackstone Legal Fellowships where law students “receive intensive training in Christian worldview principles and how they apply to the study and interpretation of law.”
Sears holds extreme views. He was the first Religious Right figure to assert that the cartoon character SpongeBob SquarePants might be gay and has criticized the 1959 comedy film “Some Like It Hot” for promoting cross-dressing.
Sears Quote: “One by one, more and more bricks that make up the artificial ‘wall of separation’ between church and state are being removed and Christians are once again being allowed to exercise their constitutional right to equal access to public facilities and funding.” (January 2004 e-mail alert)
5. American Family Association
Founder and Chairman: The Rev. Donald Wildmon
2005 Revenue: $17,595,352
Location: Tupelo, Miss.
Web site: www.afa.net
Overview: Donald Wildmon, a Methodist minister, founded the American Family Association in 1977. Its original name was the National Federation for Decency. His goal, Wildmon boldly stated, was to rid the television airwaves of “anti-family” programming, mainly through boycotts and threats of boycotts of companies that advertised on shows Wildmon dislikes.
The AFA has since branched out, engaging in typical Religious Right activities like attacking gays and bashing evolution. It now includes a lucrative radio empire with 176 affiliates in 34 states, a fundamentalist Christian news service and a legal group called the Center for Law and Policy. In 2000, Wildmon launched a nationwide campaign to urge states to pass laws mandating the display of “In God We Trust” posters in public schools.
Wildmon, 68, has flirted with anti-Semitism, suggesting that Jews control the entertainment industry. The AFA’s Journal has also reprinted articles from The Spotlight, an anti-Semitic newspaper. In December, Wildmon said evangelicals may stop supporting Israel if Jewish leaders don’t stop criticizing the Religious Right.
Wildmon Quote: “Anti-prayer/Anti-Christian groups – like the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State – have teamed up with liberal judges on the U.S. Supreme Court and are stripping away our religious freedom.” (Fall 2000 fund-raising letter)
6. American Center for Law and Justice
Founder and President: The Rev. Pat Robertson
Chief Counsel: Jay Sekulow
2005 Revenue: $14,485,514
Location: Virginia Beach, Va., and Washington, D.C.
Web site: www.aclj.org
Overview: The American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) was founded by TV preacher Pat Robertson in 1990, originally as a joint project of Robertson’s Christian Coalition and Regent University. Closely modeled on its nemesis, the American Civil Liberties Union – the organization whose name it mimics – the ACLJ was among the first Religious Right legal groups in the nation. Headed by Jay Sekulow, a Jewish convert to evangelical Christianity, the group seeks to roll back Supreme Court rulings upholding church-state separation, abortion rights and gay rights.
Although it claims to be non-partisan, the ACLJ works closely with far-right Republicans in Congress and even tried to intervene in Bush v. Gore, the Supreme Court case that awarded the 2000 election to George W. Bush. Sekulow has a close relationship with Bush, and several media accounts have reported that he is among a small group that helps select and promote Bush federal court nominees, including appointments to the Supreme Court.
Sekulow, 49, hosts a television show, “ACLJ This Week,” that airs on several Christian cable networks. (His son Logan hosts a Christian variety program as well.)
In November, Legal Times reported on a series of shady financial deals involving Sekulow. His salary at the ACLJ, for example, exceeds $600,000 per year and he is listed as an independent contractor so the figure does not have to appear on financial disclosure forms. Sekulow maintains control of a separate legal group, Christian Advocates Serving Evangelism, with annual revenues of $14 million, that also solicits donations. He often hires family members to help run his various operations, and the groups he works for have leased or purchased three homes for him.
Sekulow Quote: “The fact is the phrase ‘separation of church and state’ is not found in the U.S. Constitution, the framework of our freedom…. Too often, the ‘separation of church and state’ phrase is allowed to take the place of our actual constitutional provisions.” (Ministry Magazine, Fall 2004)
7. Family Research Council
Founder: James C. Dobson
President and CEO: Tony Perkins
2005 Revenue: $9,958,115
Location: Washington, D.C.
Web site: www.frc.org
Overview: The Family Research Council (FRC) was founded by religious broadcaster James C. Dobson in 1983 to give his views a presence in the nation’s capital. For many years, the group was merely an arm of Focus on the Family. In 1992, Dobson severed the official ties, although he says they remain “spiritually one.”
Gary Bauer, a former Reagan administration official, ran FRC for several years. The group’s current president is Tony Perkins, a 43-year-old former Louisiana state legislator and anti-abortion activist. The FRC focuses on culture war issues such as abortion, gay rights and end-of-life care. Recently, it has led the Religious Right effort to attack the federal courts and strip judges of their ability to hear church-state cases, sponsoring a series of anti-court rallies called “Justice Sunday.”
Headquartered in a 10-year-old building on the edge of D.C.’s Chinatown, FRC has become the leading Religious Right group in the nation’s capital and enjoys a close relationship with the GOP leadership. In March of 2005, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist and then-House Majority Leader Tom DeLay spoke at an FRC briefing. DeLay made controversial remarks about Terri Schiavo, a Florida woman in a persistent vegetative state. (Americans United released a tape of the remarks to the media.)
Perkins Quote: “The [Supreme] Court has become increasingly hostile to Christianity. It represents more of a threat to representative government than any other force – more than budget deficits, more than terrorism.” (“Confronting the Judicial War on Faith” conference, March 7, 2005)
8. Jerry Falwell Ministries
Founder and Director: The Rev. Jerry Falwell
2005 Revenue: $8,950,480
Location: Lynchburg, Va.
Web site: www.falwell.com
Overview: Jerry Falwell is perhaps the best-known Religious Right leader in America today, if only due to his long service to the cause. His Moral Majority is long gone, but Falwell remains on the scene and continues to attack church-state separation through several vehicles.
Falwell’s empire includes his congregation, the 20,000-member Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg; Liberty University; “The Old Time Gospel Hour” television program; the Liberty Alliance and a legal group headed by Mat Staver called Liberty Counsel. Although no longer in his prime, Falwell continues to be a frequent guest on the Fox News Channel and regularly cranks out fund-raising mail touching on all the standard Religious Right themes.
Falwell, 72, has a long track record of intolerant and bizarre pronouncements. His newspaper labeled the children’s show character Tinky Winky a stalking horse for the gay-rights movement in 1999. He has asserted that the Antichrist is alive today and is Jewish. Two days after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, Falwell appeared on Pat Robertson’s “700 Club” and opined that God had lifted his protection and allowed “the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.” The comments sparked nationwide revulsion.
Despite all of this, Falwell continues to be embraced by leaders of the Republican Party and makes regular media appearances.
Falwell Quote: “Separation of Church and State has long been the battle cry of civil libertarians wishing to purge our glorious Christian heritage from our nation’s history. Of course, the term never once appears in our Constitution and is a modern fabrication of discrimination.” (“Falwell Fax,” April 10, 1998)
9. Concerned Women for America
Founders: Tim and Beverly LaHaye
2005 Revenue: $8,484,108
Location: Washington, D.C.
Web site: www.cwfa.org
Overview: Formed in 1979 by Beverly and Tim LaHaye, Concerned Women for America brings “biblical principles into all levels of public policy.” It was originally intended to counter feminism, including opposing ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment. When that issue died with the failure of the amendment, CWA focused on opposing communism. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the group has dealt mainly with culture war issues such as abortion, gay rights, sex education and alleged “secular humanism” in public schools, pornography and opposition to church-state separation. The group adds a heavy dose of United Nations-bashing to the list. It claims 500,000 members, although the figure is probably exaggerated.
CWA regularly brings volunteer lobbyists to Capitol Hill under an effort called “Project 535.” As the group Web site puts it, “These ladies fearlessly speak with the member or his staff to discuss a particular piece of pro-family legislation.”
Despite its name, men hold some leadership positions at CWA. Mike Mears is executive director of CWA’s political action committee. Bob Knight heads the group’s Culture & Family Institute. Wendy Wright, 43, serves as president. Now in semi-retirement, the LaHayes, now both 80, are less heavily involved with day-to-day operations.
Tim LaHaye has a long history of involvement in far-right politics. He lectured on behalf of the John Birch Society throughout the 1960s and ‘70s and later helped found the Council for National Policy. More recently, he is known to most Americans as the coauthor of the best-selling Left Behind novels. These apocalyptic potboilers have made LaHaye a very wealthy man.
Tim LaHaye Quote: “America’s public education is purposely designed to eradicate Jesus from the scene and replace Him with the likes of John Dewey, Sigmund Freud, Wilhelm Wundt, Friedrich Nietzsche, Karl Marx, Charles Darwin, and many more.” (Mind Siege: The Battle for Truth in the New Millennium, 2001)
10. Traditional Values Coalition
Founder and Chairman: The Rev. Louis P. Sheldon
2005 Revenue: $6,389,448
Location: Anaheim, Calif. and Washington, D.C.
Web site: www.traditionalvalues.org
Overview: The Rev. Louis P. Sheldon founded the Traditional Values Coalition (TVC) in 1980 primarily to work on issues in California. The group later branched out, establishing a Washington beachhead. The D.C. office is run by Sheldon’s daughter, Andrea Lafferty. The organization is a 501(c)(4) group, which means donations to it are not tax deductible. However, it maintains a fully tax deductible arm called the TVC Education and Legal Institute. (Sheldon also runs a small political action committee that in 2006 gave all of its money to Republican candidates in California.)
Sheldon, 72, claims to represent 43,000 churches, but critics dispute that figure. In the world of the Religious Right, the Presbyterian minister has a reputation as something of a money-grubbing huckster. He has been criticized for acting as a front for gambling interests on at least two occasions. An aide to disgraced Washington lobbyist Jack Abramoff once called Sheldon “Lucky Louie” in an e-mail when the two worked together on a lobbying project on behalf of the legalized gambling industry.
Sheldon’s rhetoric is shrill, even by Religious Right standards, and he makes no efforts to moderate his extreme goals. His daughter is equally florid, once claiming in a 1999 fund-raising letter that she had confronted a “witch” who had sown a “spirit of confusion” over the Senate.
For many years, Sheldon carved out a niche for TVC by engaging in unrelenting gay bashing. When other Religious Right groups began moving in on this turf in the 1990s, Sheldon diversified, ramping up his assaults on church-state separation, public education and the federal judiciary.
None of this has hurt TVC’s standing in Washington. After Bush’s re-election in 2004, Sheldon held a “Christian” inaugural event that drew White House strategist Karl Rove, Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman and others.
Sheldon Quote: “A dangerous Marxist/Leftist/Homosexual/Islamic coalition has formed – and we’d better be willing to fight it with everything in our power. These people are playing for keeps. Their hero, Mao Tse Tung, is estimated to have murdered upwards of 60 million people during his reign of terror in China. Do we think we can escape such persecution if we refuse to fight for what is right?” (“The War on Christianity,” column, TVC Web site, Dec. 13, 2005)
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on Jul 7, 2006 12:23 AM
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» Real men don't eat quiche, either.
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» RE: Thanks for this article
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» Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
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» RE: Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
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» RE: Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
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» RE: Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
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» "Search for the Great White Wino"
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» RE: Thanks for this article
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» Show me the money
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» RE: Show me the money
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» Answering me or just random association thoughts?
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» RE: Answering me or just random association thoughts?
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» She didnt address it at all, nor have you
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» We're not all like that
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» "By their fruits ..." etc.
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Posted by: Fang-Face Dreamweaver on Jul 7, 2006 2:43 AM
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What they are doing to America has nothing to do with either religion or spirituality; it's all politics.
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» RE: Pharisees
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» RE: Pharisees were fine people
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» WRONG
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» Goater
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Posted by: wawa on Jul 7, 2006 3:52 AM
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“Soon after I had published the pamphlet Common Sense, [Feb. 14, 1776] in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion… The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.”-Tom Paine
May THAT revolution resume...
-excerpted from 7/5/06 WAWA BLOG
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» RE: from a pseudo-Christian of the left
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» From the left
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» RE: from a pseudo-Christian of the left
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» Oooops. The Deism Link (Second Attempt!)
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» Founding Fathers faith
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» RE: from a Christian of the left
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Posted by: Citizendeane on Jul 7, 2006 4:10 AM
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» RE: Clerical Fascism
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» And which fascist regimes were puritan?
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» RE: And which fascist regimes were puritan?
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Posted by: ChristopherLL on Jul 7, 2006 4:13 AM
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» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute sickofsleaze
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» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute sickofsleaze
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» Education and The Religious Right.
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» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute
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» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute
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» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute
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» Smearing Ministers as Fascists Does Not Make A Fascist
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» RE: Smearing Ministers as Fascists Does Not Make A Fascist
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» Strike Three
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» RE: Strike Three
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» RE: Strike Three
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» RE: Strike Three
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» RE: Truer words were never spoken.
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» RE: Smearing Ministers as Fascists Does Not Make A Fascist
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» RE: knocko does kill people, by being a "good German" who supports a sick war that murders innocent
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» No Answer
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» RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism
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» RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism con't
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» RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism con't
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» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute
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» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute
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Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jul 7, 2006 4:21 AM
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» you dont know Jesus' politics; he wasnt human and probably wasnt real
Posted by: knocko
» RE: you dont know Jesus' politics; he wasnt human and probably wasnt real
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» RE: sickofsleaze
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» RE: knocko has all the answers. Arrogant trolls always do.
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» I didn't claim to be there...
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Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 7, 2006 4:21 AM
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» your understanding of real life is pretty narrow
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» RE: your understanding of real life is pretty narrow
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» Troll methodology. . .
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» RE: Troll methodology. . .
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» RE: Troll methodology. . . is to disrupt discussions, create division
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» RE: your understanding of real life is pretty narrow
Posted by: shanaza
» opening debate
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Posted by: Jenny on Jul 7, 2006 4:24 AM
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Also, what Moon sponsored NGO put 10,000 copies of the video "George W. Bush: Faith in the White House" in churches across the nation before his last election?
Delamer Duverus
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» RE: Who's behind religious right
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Posted by: enzolima on Jul 7, 2006 4:53 AM
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» darned Jefferson
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» RE: darned Jefferson
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Posted by: LMNOP on Jul 7, 2006 5:35 AM
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This latter group of nonbelievers (to which I also belong) along with liberal Christians is outraged by political Christianity and its anti-Americanism implications. As the article above illustrates, the dominant entities in political Christianity support the Republican party, and they do this with tax exempt dollars, all of which liberals, especially nontheists, resent. So, there is a lot of antipathy for Christianity here as the posts above and those to follow will no doubt validate.
Some of the negativity expressed will not be just about conservative political Christianity, but also toward religion and faith in a general sense. Here, the anger has been shifted from the Christian leadership to its membership for empowering them.
Now what about the poor liberal Christian who also supports the principles of Americanism (separation of church and state, egalitarianism, democracy, diversity, tolerance, freedom to live as one chooses, etc.) and reads about all of the hatred many liberals have for organized religion and its political aspirations? Many will take it personally and defend their faith unnecessarily, and we will begin squabbling unnecessarily.
But with regard to the posts that criticize faith and its consequences, many of which I have written myself in the past, the liberal Christian will also feel assaulted, but this time he/she is justified in objecting as I have come to understand. It really is none of my business what you believe, just what you do if it affects me.
Unfortunately, these liberal Christians also sometimes cross a line if their defense of their faith turns into proselytizing. This is inappropriate, too, as few of us are interested. This is not a religious forum, but a political one that occasionally explores religion’s impact on politics.
I want to apologize for my past offenses in this area. I admit that I don’t see any merit in faith, and its dangers are vast and apparent. But I was just as wrong to make it an issue here or to preach secularism.
I implore my fellow nonbelievers to consider these ideas and choose your topics and words accordingly and with the understanding that many liberal Christians are people of faith, but that they respect the same principle for as we do with regard to how their religion should be legal entitled to affect us, namely, that faith should be a private matter and not politicized, that people should be free to enjoy freedom FROM religion.
And Christians, please, don’t be personally offended by attacks on conservative political Christianity. Those are not directed at you.
I suggest that we keep it political and avoid theological considerations.
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» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM....NOT
Posted by: NC3
» Clergy: Take A VOW of Silence(along with your critics)
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Clergy: Take A VOW of Silence(along with your critics)
Posted by: Mutternich
» Our very own Thomas Jefferson or Locke
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Our very own Thomas Jefferson or Locke
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: Clergy: Take A VOW of Silence(along with your critics)
Posted by: maribelle
» NC3's poor upbringing
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: Mutternich
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: peacefulaim
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: Jesse
» I might let up when Xians put their butt where there book is.
Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: SufiLizard
» Just because you ask.
Posted by: mokidugway
» GOOD POST, MOKIDUGWAY
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: GOOD POST, MOKIDUGWAY
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: babs
» Something for you to consider...
Posted by: aussidawg
» Universist
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: Universist
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Universist
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Universist
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: Something for you to consider...
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Something for you to consider...
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Something for you to consider...
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Something for you to consider...
Posted by: aussidawg
» Thank you
Posted by: nadezhda
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: Somedaysoon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kimaszi on Jul 7, 2006 5:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i'm suggesting separation of church and state *sounds like* a special issue. It sounds like it's anti-religion, even though it's not--but the religious right thrives on that, here in the not-very-secular u.s. What about some better framing?
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» RE: So what's next?
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: So what's next?
Posted by: ccrider27
» I have an idea.
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LMNOP on Jul 7, 2006 5:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Previously, I was encumbered by the notion that when one wrote or spoke about something, one should have a point. Clearly, as this piece of insight illustrates, that’s too rigid.
And I was also suffering from the delusion (of which I have now gratefully become disabused thanks to this insightful post) that the subject was conservative religious politics. Instead, we’re taking gratuitous pokes at Soros, Teresa and John Kerry, and Barbara Streissand. I also previously thought that one should not only have a point, it should be related the topic at hand.
But apparently I was mistaken. And it's a good thing too or else we wouldn't have this fine conservative mind's valuable and cogent contribution. All I can say is, “Ditto, Rush! No, make it mega-dittoes”.
Who is assigning these trolls to do so much posting of agitprop on this site of late?
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» Enter, Oh Mighty Gandolf
Posted by: knocko
» RE: nter, Oh Mighty Gandolf
Posted by: aebartle
» RE: TROLLS BEGONE!
Posted by: mombot
» RE: TROLLS BEGONE!
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: TROLLS BEGONE!
Posted by: peacefulaim
» YES, they are paid!!
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: TROLLS BEGONE!
Posted by: sirossisofliver
» What Do You Want
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: What Do You Want
Posted by: LMNOP
Comments are closed-
Posted by: knocko on Jul 7, 2006 5:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Carthy never came close to the smear of religion and of conservatives that the secular hard left commits in the US of today. McCarthy never had the media in his pocket the way the Left has gullible readers and young people thinking that religion=Fascism.
Keep it up. It will just keep exarcerbating the chasm between opposing poles in American life. You really do not want to get into a shoot-out with the Right. But that is where Left is heading. And it always loses shoot-outs. (Poor Rosa Luxembourg).
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» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: drone
» Comrade Winston
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Comrade Winston
Posted by: drone
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: gonzoskismet
» Ayatolla you so!
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: madmac10
» Key difference.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: mombot
» Liberal Ayatollahs
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Liberal Ayatollahs
Posted by: mombot
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: peacefulaim
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: ethanay
» You just proved our point
Posted by: SufiLizard
» RE: You just proved our point
Posted by: jonwilson
» Give yourself to love...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: babs
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: shanaza
» 'Let's Assassinate Hugo Chavez'
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: 'Let's Assassinate Hugo Chavez'
Posted by: CovertRage
» Amen
Posted by: DavidTbone
» By the way
Posted by: DavidTbone
» Don't start wars? Don't subjugate women?
Posted by: chief of okeefe
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sausage on Jul 7, 2006 6:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As of this writing they are very close to their goal.
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» I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: knocko
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: mombot
» Live and Let Live
Posted by: knocko
» CORRECT 100%
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Live and Let Live
Posted by: peacefulaim
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: sausage
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: sausage
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: sausage
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: aussidawg
» This is about acceptance, peace, and love...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: Neruda
» RE: Trolls disappear when they've lost the argument. Notice how they fled?
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» Well stay tired of it
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: Well stay tired of it
Posted by: buffeliscious
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Urstrly on Jul 7, 2006 6:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But what does the left offer? We barely mention that separation of church and state protects THEM from overbearing religion. Nor do mainstream and liberal religions acknowledge the real spiritual emptiness of our culture. If you can't afford medical care and groceries at the same time, if you can't send your kids to private school, if you don't have a ride to church or nice clothes to wear there, religious freedom is only an abstraction. We need to make it real, to publicize the line between corporate and government repression and the religious right . Most of all, we need to offer the kind of spiritual sustenance that comes from acknowledging each and every person as a child of God. Until we do, the religious right will go on attracting the poor and the oppressed and the depressed. Maybe we're too comfortable with the way things are.
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» Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness(Damned Jewish Doctrine)
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness(Damned Jewish Doctrine)
Posted by: mombot
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness(Damned Jewish Doctrine)
Posted by: Katota
» Roman Holiday
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness(Damned Jewish Doctrine)
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Opportunity Abounds
Posted by: babs
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jul 7, 2006 6:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These people/groups are not about extending grace, mercy & peace to all of the world. These people/groups do not concern themselves with the widow, the orphan, the sick, the imprisoned and the outcast. These people/groups are not motivated by a love for people and a desire to see all people freed from the chains that bind them. What they are about is power, political influence and money.
These modern day Pharisees are about conforming people to a list of do's and don't that suit their personal bias. Jesus was harsh with the Pharisees because they were all about burdening people with a formulary of conduct rather than reaching out to their real needs. He called them 'whitewashed tombstones'-- people who desired to publicly appear religious and pious, but inside were greedy, hard-hearted and bound to their own corruption.
Christ-followers are not about binding people up with lists of do's and don'ts. They are not about playing in the political cesspool and do not seek to establish a theocracy.
What Christ-followers are about is very simple: loving God and all people as you love yourself. If you do that you will live peacefully, extend mercy and grace to others and strive to see all people free. The clowns of the christian media & political influence circus are about everything but that.
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» Jesus Nazerethsky
Posted by: knocko
» Hey knocko
Posted by: NC3
» RE: Hey knocko
Posted by: peacefulaim
» I'm here buddy
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Jesus Nazerethsky
Posted by: NoPCZone
» Sheeple
Posted by: NC3
» RE: Wolf Pack
Posted by: Albertagirl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 7, 2006 6:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: WHAT WOULD JESUS DO WITH ALL THAT MONEY ? Invest in A Home Construction Business
Posted by: knocko
» RE: WHAT WOULD JESUS DO WITH ALL THAT MONEY ? Invest in A Home Construction Business
Posted by: felipe
» Invest in Love
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Invest in Love
Posted by: CovertRage
» RE: WHAT WOULD JESUS DO WITH ALL THAT MONEY ?
Posted by: Somedaysoon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: symcokid on Jul 7, 2006 6:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There have been established Churches here for some time but now they've become as numerous as convenience stores with very minimum - no taxes. They all have the "Real Deal"! "What's in your wallet"? Every few years, the Zealots feel it neccessary to "Paraphrase" the Bible.
If people wish to follow any of these Religious Sects, fine, but can't Church and State be kept separate as was originally intended. Politics is corrupt enough without "Onward Christian Soldier, Marching as to War" and "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" rhetoric.
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» What Don't You Read a couple of Books Longer than 2 Pages?
Posted by: knocko
» RE: What Don't You Read a couple of Books Longer than 2 Pages?
Posted by: jimhurt
» YOU are the one confused about the Constitution's "Establishment Clause"!
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» NOTE: the above comment was directed toward "knocko", NOT toward jimhurt...
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: YOU are the one confused about the Constitution's "Establishment Clause"!
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Huh? How did you get "disenfranchisement" out of religious freedom?
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: Huh? How did you get "disenfranchisement" out of religious freedom?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» (sigh) You really don't get it.
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» Meh. Guess we'll just have to leave it there.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Okay...
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: What Don't You Read a couple of Books Longer than 2 Pages?
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: What Don't You Read a couple of Books Longer than 2 Pages?
Posted by: symcokid
» I know G. Bush; he is not a friend of mine
Posted by: knocko
» RE: I know G. Bush; he is not a friend of mine
Posted by: jimhurt
» RE: "I know G. Bush; he is not a friend of mine" Righty troll talking point, don't be fooled by this
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» RE: I know G. Bush; he is not a friend of mine
Posted by: buffeliscious
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 7, 2006 6:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: xbj on Jul 7, 2006 7:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because real Christians are to follow His life example, to the Cross if necessary. There is no doubt whatsoever that Jesus could, and would have, done politics better than anyone, but POLITICS IS NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN, A PLACE FOR REAL CHRISTIANS.
Indeed, entering politics BEYOND the simple crying out of the Truth, loud and long, is the first step toward Christianism, a complete perversion of real Christianity.
Each of the misled lost people in this article, as the majority of the misled lost people in their organizations, have become full-fledged Christianists. In Jesus Christ's time He called them Pharisees, hypocrites, "professionally" "religious" Jews that had all the knowledge of the Law and NONE OF THE SUBSTANCE, living only for the power and riches such a life brought them.
Christianists are "professional" Christians; their very livelihood depends on them remaining Christianists; if they were true followers of Christ, they'd GIVE EVERYTHING AWAY and STOP ASKING FOR ANYTHING OF ANYBODY, EVER.
They'd be horrified at the government of Israel's fascist policies, and not aiding and abetting them; they'd be doing everything they could TO PREVENT THE SECOND COMING FROM EVER HAVING TO HAPPEN; not rejoicing in a Rapture where billions will be left behind to endure God's wrath.
They'd be RUNNING from governing and political power and riches as Jesus did; not CHASING THEM.
No, these professional Christianists were EXACTLY the ones God was speaking to when He said, at the last judgment, when they claimed to cast out demons in His name and bring millions of souls to Christ, He would say "Depart from me ye Workers of Iniquity; I NEVER KNEW YE."
So please, always judge Christianity by the life and example and teaching of Jesus Christ and no one else; not one human being who ever lived is worthy of judging Christianity by.
On the contrary, a handful of other people throughout history (Ghandi comes to mind) were closer to Jesus Christ than any Pope, priest, minister, parson, or pastor that ever lived. And precisely because he was not a Christian, NEVER FELL VICTIM TO THE TRAP OF CHRISTIANISM and perhaps gave us an inkling of how Jesus Christ Himself would govern, one day WHEN IT IS TIME and all that could possibly come to God willingly will have done so.
Thanks for reading.
ChristiansAgainstBush.net
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» Real Christians?
Posted by: NC3
» Of course "real Christians" vote, etc., BUT...
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» Assorted Heathen Unite!
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Assorted Heathen Unite!
Posted by: babs
» RE: Assorted Heathen Unite!
Posted by: xbj
» RE: Assorted Heathen Unite!
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Assorted Heathen Unite!
Posted by: xbj
» RE: eal Christians?
Posted by: xbj
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Stealthdragoon on Jul 7, 2006 7:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People in America and the Blue state liberal america should be aware of those who want to bring american into a Christain Taliban like country.
The Biggest fear is that these people are a clear and present danger to America, it's freedom, democracy, it's US Constitution and the bill of rights. These groups are far worse of a terror threat than any other in the world and these groups listed here should be treated like terror groups and should be watched like terror groups.
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» RE: The top ten most Dangerous organizations in America
Posted by: Lincoln fan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jimhurt on Jul 7, 2006 7:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say we use the anger of these people against them. Force them to go on record over and over again about how they feel about Presbiterians, Catholics and Jews. I leave out Muslims and Budists because I am not sure if that would be a political plus or minus.
Force them to go on the record in blunter turms about having the Government force behaviors. Women who want an Abortion will be forced to due what and how? Gay people will have what done to them?
Lets also hit them with the "liberal" Christ. What would Jesus do about hunger, Wealth distribution and Militarism?
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» Jesus was not a campaigner nor did he read the polls
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Jesus was not a campaigner nor did he read the polls
Posted by: babs
» Unfortunately...
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Jim Hurt
Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: Yes, jonwilson we liberals want to take your freedoms away. First, we'll take the gun out of
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jul 7, 2006 8:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have all kinds of churches pulling the tax-free scam. Christian, Jewish, "fringe" and cult, etc. Ask L. Ron Hubbard Jr. (the son of the founder of Scientology) about the benefits of the tax system for even the craziest of religions.
Churches in the Middle Ages made themselves rich by avoiding taxation and were corrupted in the process. We should do them a favor and remove most of this exemption. We can reduce their power and gain some much needed tax revenue in the process. We can also make them more honest.
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» RE: Tax churches
Posted by: ChrisBieber
Comments are closed-
Posted by: supercrisp on Jul 7, 2006 8:41 AM
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» RE: *Snicker*
Posted by: knocko
» RE: They're sending new trolls here on a weekly basis. 1 week ago, a troll here said that he was
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill on Jul 7, 2006 9:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The gospel also tells us that Jesus was "tempted" to assume political power. It is said that "Satan" (a word meaning "the acuser", among other things) took Jesus to a mountaintop and offered him all the power and riches of the "whole world" if Jesus would worship Satan. Jesus refused. His refusal led inexorably to the cross.
C.S. Lewis wisely observed that only TWO kinds of power are available to us in this four-dimensional world: political power & SPIRITUAL POWER. Great leaders can sometimes use spiritual power to effect political ends (Ghandi and MLK come to mind), but is is IMPOSSIBLE to reach spiritual goals by mere political power, i.e., coercion!
The scary "Christianists" in this article need to learn that!
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» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know. (He might have been thinking of you)
Posted by: SufiLizard
» You have no idea how "close to the heart" I hold my religion; and furthermore,...
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know.
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know.
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know.
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know.
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know.
Posted by: buffeliscious
» Religion a vehicle for some
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: The invasion of mainstream churches by righty activists to divide and conquer has been documente
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cthelyt on Jul 7, 2006 9:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who believe that liberalism, free thought, and democracy can coexist with organized religion are fooling themselves. Religion struggles to free itself from the box in which liberal politics attempts to quarantine it. It must escape and poison the body politic, or it will die. The rise of the religious right in our time is but another event in a long-term history of religion chafing at the bonds that civil society imposes on it. The struggle will continue until religions end, if they ever do, or they triumph and repress independent thought to the point that universal ignorance is permanently restored and factual knowledge becomes the property of a privileged few.
So, all you well-intentioned compromisers out there, know who and what you are dealing with before you extend a hand in friendship and respect. In the end, the religious wingnuts that many of us so despise and try to isolate really do belong in the mainstream of organized religion. They are the vanguard of the prophets of doom, the doom that awaits all who will not surrender their ability to see and think for themselves to an authority that lies beyond their control. Laugh at them only nervously.
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» RE: Waste of time ect.
Posted by: NC3
» RE: Waste of time ect.
Posted by: babs
» RE: Troll NC3 was present at the founding of our country but failed to observe that the founding
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dirkster42 on Jul 7, 2006 10:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For progressive religious thought, check out this handy list of books.
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» RE: Add Institute for Religion and Democracy
Posted by: NC3
» ignorance
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Add Institute for Religion and Democracy
Posted by: dirkster42
» RE: Pity NC3, he won't survive in a Dominionist society. And what will happen to his daughter when
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» d'oh!!!
Posted by: dirkster42
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pzzp on Jul 7, 2006 10:32 AM
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» Who Getting Big?
Posted by: knocko
» RE: If UUA is not a church then, you are not a human
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DavidTbone on Jul 7, 2006 11:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A sacrifice of ill-gotten gains is tainted
and the gifts of the wicked win no approval
The Most High has no pleasure in the offerings of the godless
nor do countless sacrifices win His forgiveness
To offer a sacrifice from the possessions of the poor
is like killing a son before his father's eyes.
Bread is life to the destitute,
and to deprive them of it is murder.
To rob your neighbor of his livelihood is to murder him,
and he who defrauds a worker of his wages sheds blood.
Ecc 34 18-22
We competed against the Soviet empire with one of our own for decades. The US won, because we set up dictatorships who murdered any dissenters, including as Reagan put it, the 'soft targets'. In addition to becoming pawns of the cold war, the people of these countries began producing cheap goods and resources for US corporations. This is not 'loving thy neighbor' let alone 'loving thine enemy'. While we are a nation of many faiths and -isms, Christians MUST take a stand against these imperial right wingers who only lust for more power. Greed is the diety that this nation worships. Followers of Christ, and everyone else, should know that these people are wicked.
The question is not who you believe in, but what you believe. Do you believe these organizations reflect moral values? Is condemnation and self righteousness a reflection of morality? Some of these organizations helped steal Ohio for George Bush in 2004. They are connected to Diebold, ISS, and all of the bad guys. Does it really take the slandering of an entire faith to question their conduct? Remember, for every right wing nut job, there is a Christian in Honduras sewing buttons on the Gap back-to-school line. For every minister who promotes blind nationalism and hangs yellow ribbons on the cross, there are catholics in Guatemala making your underpants. You cannot be part of a movement that promotes diversity and multiculturalism if you alienate a large population of the world, many of whom our tax and consumer dollars have oppressed for generations.
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» RE: Wolves in sheeps clothing....MOST OF THE PROBLEMS
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Wolves in sheeps clothing....MOST OF THE PROBLEMS
Posted by: DavidTbone
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Jul 7, 2006 12:58 PM
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So what. They are so superficial as to be easily discredited with little intellectual effort. As many suckers as they attract, just as many opponents are created by their crackpot ideas.
I say give them only as much publicity as is required to reveal what they do. What they spout and preach has never worked. It's like the dog that barks at the mailman. So long as the mailman leaves, the dog thinks what he's doing is working.
That's why the primary argument of the fundamentalists is a tally of numbers. So all they do is try to sign up more members. As if one could count who's religious.
Maybe if journalists of the American way stopped tooting the radical right's horn for them, we'd see that they'd stop barking so loudly. Ignore them.
I do admit that the pathetic religious illiteracy of Americans makes for a sucker born every minute. But stop fighting the circus. It's just for killing time.
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» RE: AGAIN, SOME ONE IS NOT DOING THEIR
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: AGAIN, SOME ONE IS NOT DOING THEIR
Posted by: WyrdSister
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Posted by: 1984NOW!!! on Jul 7, 2006 1:38 PM
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Dictatorships that prohibit religious freedoms, even to be an atheist, are equally undesirable. We don't even need to look too far back in history to see the faults in totalitaristic dictatorships, they go back as far as history is known, that wherever religious governments were in power, or governments prohibited religion, the citizens were not free to personal happiness and satisfaction. Often in religious governments the people were totally subjugated and all of their achievements and their very lives were under the ownership of the rulers. One of my favorite totalitarian states to point out, which many may deem irrelevant here and now were the Aztecs.
Basically they were slaves. They could not criticize, they could not petition, they could not have differing points of view from the state's rigid religious dogma.
Of course, the more current examples are the countries ruled by the Ayatollahs and or the bin Ladens, so I think the
analogy made to the religious fundamentalists in this country are appropriate, and something to avoid with everything we have
The writer of this article made one mistake in my opinion. There should be an 11th added to the money grubbing, pseudo Christians, fascists, bigots. The organization is located in our White House and is fronted by a wanna-be ayattollah/dictator who just turned 60 and who is supported by the top 10.
Interesting that one of the posts mentioned that religion should not be judged by reason and rationalism. Reason and rationalism is what we arrived to after Paganism and
unrealistic superstition, and these zombie fundamentalists want all of us to go back to that!??
THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT IT IS OR IS NOT CLEARLY DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION, IS WHAT ALLOWED THIS COUNTRY TO NURTURE HAPPY AND SUCCESSFUL CITIZENS.
THOSE OF YOU OUT THERE WHO CANNOT SEE THE INSIDIOUS DANGER OF ALLOWING THE FALWELLS AND ROBERTSONS, TO DICTATE OUR COUNTRY'S FUTURE POLICES NEED TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS
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» RE: Down with all...SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE WORKED ONLY BECAUSE
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: oh boy
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Secularity
Posted by: WyrdSister
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Posted by: aussidawg on Jul 7, 2006 1:41 PM
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Posted by: Riverside on Jul 7, 2006 1:53 PM
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You see, the good Lord made us quite powerful. It is us, not Him who will decide our fate and longevity on Earth. If we want to annihilate each other, as we regularly try to do, then have at it. God will not interfere.
Similarly, if in moments of compassion and concern we turn to each other in a caring and giving manner, then so be it, and God will sigh in relief and hope. In this latter case, the most beautiful outcome is that if we persist in our care for each other, things for all of us get better. Now that is God's reward, that he built into our powerful independence from the get go. In this case He just smiles and bursts in the most joyous songs.
Right now, however, God weeps more than he sings. So how about it, can we become, again, really caring, loving humans and in so doing dry God's tears?
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» My God also weeps at human cruelty and stupidity
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: My God also weeps at human cruelty and stupidity
Posted by: Riverside
» RE: Tell Me Why...?
Posted by: shanaza
» RE: Tell Me Why...?
Posted by: Riverside
» RE: Tell Me Why...? OK, I'LL TELL YOU WHY...
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: Joshua Holland on Jul 7, 2006 1:59 PM
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Posted by: gonzoskismet on Jul 7, 2006 3:34 PM
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» RE: Just One Point...ABOUT THE IRS...
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: maribelle on Jul 7, 2006 4:26 PM
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I just checked the first three sites listed here, but none have message boards that I could find. (figures! They give you the truth, they don't want to hear yours.)
I for one am getting tired of either preaching to the choir and/or arguing with the RR trolls.
Anyone else with me?
**I DO NOT ADVOCATE GOING ON THEIR BOARDS AND INSULTING THEM**that is pointless and only proves to them that liberals are godless heathens--like that's a bad thing. :-)
Just advocating presenting the careful, reasoned opposing ideas like a few of the conservative posters do here on occasion. I personally love it when they give me something I hadn't considered, and I have to research carefully to find out the real story. It's good karma. And they're not going to hear it on Fox News Network.
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» RE: PLEASE POST LINKS TO RIGHT WING MESSAGE BOARDS
Posted by: jimhurt
» RE: PLEASE POST LINKS TO RIGHT WING MESSAGE BOARDS
Posted by: knocko
» RE: There aren't any
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» FreeRepublic is Bad
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: PLEASE POST LINKS TO RIGHT WING MESSAGE BOARDS
Posted by: Riverside
» RE: PLEASE POST LINKS TO RIGHT WING MESSAGE BOARDS
Posted by: maribelle
» Better Educated
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: PLEASE POST LINKS TO RIGHT WING MESSAGE BOARDS
Posted by: WyrdSister
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Posted by: Moonray on Jul 7, 2006 5:25 PM
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As long as large numbers of people reject logic and embrace fairy-tales regarding how our universe operates, no amount of hand-wringing over "extremists" will do any good -- and humanity will stay on the path to self-destruction.
So-called religious moderates are just the enablers of the Bible-thumpers and ayatollahs. A pox on all your houses.
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» RE: eligion is just a symptom
Posted by: jonwilson
» Yes!
Posted by: Moonray
» Logic is about validity not about truth.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Verbal tap-dancing
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: eligion is just a symptom--well said moonray!
Posted by: zooeyhall
» Love
Posted by: DavidTbone
» Excuse me, but . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» hmmmmm....
Posted by: DavidTbone
» Alternet's lying troll of the week award goes to SamFox!!!!!
Posted by: apost8
» Thanks, Sam . . .
Posted by: Moonray
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Posted by: jonwilson on Jul 7, 2006 5:32 PM
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HOW DARE THEM!
Do they think the Constitution guarantees them freedom of religion or something?
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» RE: Down with freedom of religion!
Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: Down with freedom of religion!
Posted by: jonwilson
» DOWN WITH DICTATORS OF RELIGION or of GOVERNMENTS
Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: DOWN WITH DICTATORS OF RELIGION or of GOVERNMENTS
Posted by: jonwilson
» An argument for separation...
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: An argument for separation...
Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» he's a bot
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: An argument for separation...
Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: An argument for separation...
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Down with freedom of religion!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
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Posted by: apost8 on Jul 7, 2006 8:54 PM
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I'm an atheist and a progressive. I've found no truth, or comfort in religion. That is, however, a personal observation.
If you are a religious progressive who can respect my point of view, then you are not an enemy. I can agree to disagree if you can.
What we need to do as progressives is not to fight with each other over things we will never change each other's minds on. What our goal should be is to expose the evil and the threat to all of our liberties that dominionism represents.Bravo to Alternet for this article. Hope to see more like it.
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» RE: An observation
Posted by: MEL810
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Posted by: eastcoker on Jul 7, 2006 10:07 PM
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I especially am dancing for FOF with my spear. It is time to cut off heads and serve them up on platters.
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» RE: Time to go to war!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
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Posted by: jolo on Jul 7, 2006 11:45 PM
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Rather than attempting to having dialogue and discussion, they prefer. and are told to, label rather think. That is SO divise and is hurting this nation so much. Discussion and dialogue is what is needed.
Two things that are important (I think)
As an American, I come from a great nation of people.
As an American, I am ashamed, disgusted, repulsed, by the actions of the U.S. Federal government, particularly the Executive and Legislative branches. They are controled by Corporate dollars and special interest groups.
This is in the same way that I do not think that Australian PM John Howard's total support and promotion of U.S. President's Bush's occupation of Iraq and claim that Bush (and himself) had no knowledge whatsoever of the torture going on in Abu Ghraib is reflective of the Austrailian people. Whatever the selfish motives that the Austrailian government has to be a close second to Tony Blair as the only two Bush supporters from governments in the world, is a reflection of the citizens of Australia.
The Administration of the U.S. has virtually no political ideology, the behaviors are about as anti-conservative in nature as they can be). You know, destruction of states rights, reckless, uncontroled spending, enormous budget and trade deficits. The lack of enforcement of federal laws. Creating a whole new Trillion dollar branch of the government. The lack of loyalty to the Constitution. The illegal and out of control spying and servailance of U.S. citizens, done with virtually no warrants or knowledge from the Justice Department.
Massive increase of the size and scope of the Federal government.
The giving out of BIDLESS government contracts. Then the announcement of further contracts will be given to ONLY those who support President Bush's policies.
The major outsourcing of the U.S. military to organizations like Blackwater, which make it impossible to examine budgets, behaviors or control by anyone other than the Administration.
The reckless involvment in a soverign government's affairs. so much that the U.S. military is sent, to occupy the nation. This being done, NOT for defense purposes, as a conservative would never, ever get involved with military force in other nations, unless threatened.
The reason, if anyone really remembers, was to find and remove the weapons of mass destruction that supposedly put the U.S. at risk.
So, PLEASE understand that there are no liberals or conservative philosophies involved with this. Keep the slurs and the labels out.
Follow the money, research, be open, dialogue and understand that we have only ONE party in the U.S., the "GREEN PARTY", green as in dollars.
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» Everything political has a "For Sale" sign on it these days.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Consumerism too.
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Drop the Liberal, Conservative propaganda, please
Posted by: Aussie Kim
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Posted by: bfranky on Jul 8, 2006 5:56 AM
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Posted by: Joe Ox on Jul 8, 2006 11:28 AM
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Now, you have a perception of the desires of the Christian right, though I wouldnt classify it the way you do, but list for me the tangible gains they have made in legislating and even impacting our culture.
Can't pray in school
Can't speak of religion at work
Can't display religious symbols many places
Systematic elimination of religion from history
Private clubs very limited if they are religious in nature
Christianity especially is fair game to ridicule, no risk of hate crimes or any other protections exist
The list goes on and on.
I just don't see the problem. YOU ARE WINNING and paranoid as hell that you will lose. You will likely point to gay marriage, but that is not easily comparable. Not being able to pray in school for example impacts everone. And it was declared by judiciary, not by referendum. Gay marriage impacts gays who want to marry. If you are a heterosexual who is married, you may be passionate about the right for gays to marry, but at days end, you are not personally impacted. AND, gay marriage has been limited by THE PEOPLE voting. What is wrong with popular will?
I guess if you need something to fear, fine, but these guys are no threat to you.
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» RE: Whats to Fear?
Posted by: DavidTbone
» Lack of Morality
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Lack of Morality
Posted by: Joe Ox
» Popular Will...
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Popular Will...
Posted by: Joe Ox
» Aw come on, don't get mad.....
Posted by: DavidTbone
» The drug war.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Whats to Fear?
Posted by: Aussie Kim
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Posted by: cispirit on Jul 8, 2006 12:55 PM
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Posted by: Michelle on Jul 8, 2006 1:28 PM
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Sheldon Quote: “A dangerous Marxist/Leftist/Homosexual/Islamic coalition has formed – and we’d better be willing to fight it with everything in our power...." (“The War on Christianity,” column, TVC Web site, Dec. 13, 2005)
I think there is a whole comedy sketch here. Picture the meetings of this supposed coalition! Oh my. So much good material.
Quick, someone -- hire a touchy-feely "team-building" consultant for this coalition!
PS I initially wondered why the Jews were not in this coalition, but I think "Marxist" does double duty as a codeword.
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Posted by: ChrisBieber on Jul 8, 2006 10:35 PM
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You and your Marxist philosophy are redolent with class warfare claptrap that is almost Huey Long-ish in its demagoguery...
would have fit right in with like-minded Robespierre.....
oh and by the way your despising of the Church is typical and predictable...you should be happy soon as your feeble attempts at lashing out at the Church will be realized soon enough...
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» such anger....
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: such anger....
Posted by: Wish
» problem solved
Posted by: DavidTbone
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Posted by: Wish on Jul 9, 2006 2:43 AM
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People love to be led by ignorance. Not-knowing in itself is not a crime. Having yourself being led by ignorance is. That leads to prejudice and judgements, intolerance and hatred.
When people are afraid they want a so called "strong" (wo)man telling them where they should focus their anger on. And do so willingly. Because it's always it's never their own fault, but always "the other's" (talking about immaturity...).
These "power brokers" are the most despicable, cowardly monstrous lowlifes around. And did you read the quotes, here and elsewhere? They have the arrogance to know what Jesus would have done, what their god would have done. Thus they perform the biggest blasphemy of all: they compare themselves to their god-almighty....(non capital intended)
Basically, people are so afraid of LIFE itself!
Life means change. Life IS change!
But desperately trying to hold on to some kind of 'status quo' which does not really exist, because everything is changing.
Imagine how much energy and effort it takes to stop the tides or the wind...That is what they put in to stop the flow of life.
These so called self-proclaimed "pro-life" doorknobs, don't dare to live life itself. Give themselves over to the flow of life.
Imagine they encounter something out of the unknown...the horror. Imagine they'd have to get out of their fortress and wander around in "the wilderness".
Imagine they'd have to open their minds, hearts and souls for something different than their rigid, very very narrow minded and truly scary belief system...the terror.
Look at life. Look at life literally. Look at how your own body functions in all its details (whether you belief in evolution or - ignorantly - refuse to).
Life is a wonder. The biggest wonder of all. And all you do is rejecting the wonder. The wonder that - if you want to call it that way - your god has given you. What have you done with it?
What? Protect the innocent children?
From whom?!
All I see is they need to be protected from you!
From various trainings I have come to learn that children are mostly formed in their youngest years. And the more rigid and hateful and even violent (didn't that one guy promote corporal punishment to children?!), and the less attention for the true needs of the child, loving, touching (and I'm not talking sexual, you perverts), the more scarred the child will be, later, and through his life.
You're decisions how to raise a child don't even need to be conscious. The child will know.
Those 'power brokers', that feed on the fear of people like vampires, that feed then more fear and hatred and ignorance (what they tell is pure lies), abusing their position, what can be done about them? If millions of people keep to be willing to be gullible and ignorant (I repeat that word again)? With their ADDICTION to living in fear. Their addiction to live in blaming others for what they should look at themselves at?
It's like 'fulminaters' like Ann Coulter are still able to spread their bile and puke, cause people are still reading it.
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» People want to be fooled and lied to - part 2
Posted by: Wish
» Great sermon--one suggestion.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: shangrilalad on Jul 9, 2006 8:18 AM
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Someone made the point that trying to reason with the rabid religious right is an exercise in futility because they suffer from “invincible ignorance.” No matter the evidence they see or hear, they will ignore and deny all facts that contradict their "faith based" intolerances and prejudices. Some of their "best and brightest" can read and write, but what they can’t and won’t do is think, because thinking threatens their self-esteem.
The willfully ignorant cling to their denial of reality as desperately as someone adrift in the ocean clings to an overturned lifeboat. All of their self-serving justifications and hypocrisies are too fragile to risk self-examination. At some level of consciousness they instinctively recognize the danger and recoil from the truth like a flame . . . and then they attack the messenger.
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» RE: "Invincible Ignorance” WHAT EVIDENCE ARE YOU
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: "Invincible Ignorance” WHAT EVIDENCE ARE YOU
Posted by: shangrilalad
» RE: "ANTI-CHRISTIAN HATEMONGERS"??? PLEASE SUPPORT YOUR
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jul 9, 2006 8:32 AM
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» RE: I only wish....
Posted by: Roverton
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Posted by: SamFox on Jul 9, 2006 2:07 PM
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I wonder: Are the author and posters looking for the truth or using those on the list to justify wanting to keep God from influincing their lives, to make it OK in their heads to live any old way they want? Do we really believe that 'my opinion' is the ultimate truth? Or are you open minded enough to do the research on just how authentic the Bible and NT Chistianity really is? NT Christianity was started by Jesus. His followers carried it forward. These followers were in a position to KNOW if Jesus was dead or really resurectd. If He were still dead, they gave their lives for a teaching THEY KNEW WAS FALSE!!! The historical (like the Catholic church) stuff that happened later in His Name that was not from God is no excuse for us...
Who was it that founded this Nation? Mostly Christians! Only about a dozen of the (two hundred or so?) founders were diests or unbelievers.
On a search site I enterd 'Constitution'. The 1st Ammendment reads in part: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." the rest dealing with free speech & press. No seperation of Church and state in there at all, ecept that the Gov. is to be hands off. This was to keep Gov out of religion not religion out of Gov. Posting the 10 Commandments, crosses at war memorials or public prayer do not constitute gov. establishing a religion. The relegion had already been established, most of the Founders believed in it and this amendment was to protect it and any other that citizans choose to follow.
What we really have is some groups want to remove the Christion influence and substitute the religion of secularizm. I might not agree with how Ann Coulter says some things but by and large her book 'Godless...' hits the nail on the head. Her detractors mostly refute her incendiary style but are kinda stuck when it comes to her over all view.
Check out all the Bible refrences the Founders quoted, the prayers they MADE IN PUBLIC and so on...The ACLU would have gone crazy!!!
If it were not for the Bible based Christian influence on our countries origins you would probably not have the right to disagree. Check out the King and Church of England at the time. Would you rather have that as the law of the land?
Most of the negitive against those on the list show fear. The fear of the truth by their detractors who justify free for all sex, to abort the results, homo sex perversion and other destructive behaviours legitimized while ignoring the resulting death toll from STDs, homosexual lifestyles and millions of dead un-born children.
Only a fool says in his heart there is no God!
SamFox
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» RE: VEN IF THE GROUPS AND PEOPLE ON THE LIST
Posted by: FI10Gale
» RE: VEN IF THE GROUPS AND PEOPLE ON THE LIST
Posted by: FI10Gale
» RE: VEN IF THE GROUPS AND PEOPLE ON THE LIST
Posted by: shangrilalad
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Posted by: FI10Gale on Jul 9, 2006 3:33 PM
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He should be on this list. His finanicial Influence over the Bush family is historical. Pappy Bush (41) is paid millions to do speeches for this convicted felon. How can a convicted felon be allowed to even own any kind of large media outlet...Newspapers...Radio Stations....If only there were a hell for these....these....cretins to fry for eternity...
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Posted by: popsicle67 on Jul 9, 2006 5:49 PM
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does serve to point out one important trait they all must have
to keep up their minisries. An unmitigated gall surpassed only by an awe-enspiring arrogance. I am secure in the fact that I don't have to worry about their invisible man punishing me any more than more than I worry about how mad a democrat is though. If god does exist and he does punish nonbelievers,
I'll have all ten of those list members ahead of me in line because belief isn't what they are selling,they are selling themselves, which is what all religious leaders do.
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Posted by: sirossisofliver on Jul 9, 2006 9:48 PM
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With every new Alternet Blog discussion, watch out for the following Neo-Con WingNut Infiltrators:
knocko
rightwing1
NC3
RWcowboy
Phenix
Supercrisp
zvirgil2
resistance6
conservasaurus
butthead
PLEASE refrain from responding to their agenda-driven, NeoCon Drivel in order to prevent them from high-jacking the threads.
IGNORING THESE ACEREBRAL IDIOTS ALLOWS US TO CARRY ON WITH OUR REASONED DISCUSSIONS.
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» RE: Troll Alert
Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: Troll Alert
Posted by: starjumper
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Posted by: Reader11722 on Jul 10, 2006 5:24 AM
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Support indy medai like Alter,
Last link (before Google Books bends to Gov't pressure):
http://www.iuniverse.com/
bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0
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Posted by: JDHorn on Jul 10, 2006 9:08 AM
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It means no tax exempt status for all religious organisations, including schools and hospitals. And it means ending the charitable contributions income tax deduction to all religious societies. Not that this would starve these parasitic charlatains for funds, but it sure would cut them down to size.
This is easy for me to say, because I have no use for religion in any way, shape or form. And, it ain't going to happen. I know of no politician who hasn't got his tongue up the arse of some pastor, priest, or rabbi!
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Posted by: starjumper on Jul 11, 2006 9:13 AM
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Posted by: martye on Jul 13, 2006 1:48 PM
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Posted by: cheneybush2008 on Dec 30, 2006 12:39 PM
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on Jul 7, 2006 12:23 AM
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» RE: Waltzing Psychotics, Waltzing Psychotics
Posted by: celticsweetgrass
» Real men don't eat quiche, either.
Posted by: Mutternich
» RE: Thanks for this article
Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: Thanks for this article
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
Posted by: Pickles78
» RE: Keep the dialogue open between progressives in the US and the world!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» "Search for the Great White Wino"
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: Thanks for this article
Posted by: leilalw
» RE: eal Men Aren't Frightened
Posted by: jolo
» RE: Thanks for this article
Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: Thanks for this article
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Thanks for this article
Posted by: boardsailor
» Show me the money
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: Show me the money
Posted by: ellarwee
» Answering me or just random association thoughts?
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: Answering me or just random association thoughts?
Posted by: maribelle
» She didnt address it at all, nor have you
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: Show me the money
Posted by: bronco214
» RE: Show me the money
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: Show me the money
Posted by: Tholos
» RE: Show me the money
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: eal Men Aren't Frightened
Posted by: skinsinfilms
» RE: Waltzing Psychotics, Waltzing Psychotics
Posted by: skinsinfilms
» We're not all like that
Posted by: tanstaafl28
» "By their fruits ..." etc.
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: We're not all like that
Posted by: Aussie Kim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Fang-Face Dreamweaver on Jul 7, 2006 2:43 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What they are doing to America has nothing to do with either religion or spirituality; it's all politics.
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» RE: Pharisees
Posted by: kww355
» RE: Pharisees were fine people
Posted by: knocko
» WRONG
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: Pharisees were fine people
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Goater
Posted by: skinsinfilms
» RE: Pharisees were fine people
Posted by: Fang-Face Dreamweaver
» RE: Pharisees
Posted by: MEL810
» RE: Pharisees, No Whore Church
Posted by: CovertRage
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wawa on Jul 7, 2006 3:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Soon after I had published the pamphlet Common Sense, [Feb. 14, 1776] in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion… The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.”-Tom Paine
May THAT revolution resume...
-excerpted from 7/5/06 WAWA BLOG
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» RE: from a pseudo-Christian of the left
Posted by: NC3
» From the left
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: from a pseudo-Christian of the left
Posted by: pomes
» RE: from a Christian of the left
Posted by: pomes
» RE: from a Christian of the left
Posted by: aussidawg
» Oooops. The Deism Link (Second Attempt!)
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: from a Christian of the left
Posted by: dbonney
» Founding Fathers faith
Posted by: nadezhda
» RE: from a Christian of the left
Posted by: jonwilson
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Citizendeane on Jul 7, 2006 4:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Clerical Fascism
Posted by: nim1
» And which fascist regimes were puritan?
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: And which fascist regimes were puritan?
Posted by: FedererFan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ChristopherLL on Jul 7, 2006 4:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute sickofsleaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute sickofsleaze
Posted by: hms2004
» Education and The Religious Right.
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute
Posted by: lively56
» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute
Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute
Posted by: aussidawg
» Smearing Ministers as Fascists Does Not Make A Fascist
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Smearing Ministers as Fascists Does Not Make A Fascist
Posted by: ChristopherLL
» Strike Three
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Strike Three
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: Strike Three
Posted by: peacefulaim
» RE: Strike Three
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Truer words were never spoken.
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Smearing Ministers as Fascists Does Not Make A Fascist
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: knocko does kill people, by being a "good German" who supports a sick war that murders innocent
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» No Answer
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: No Answer
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: No Answer
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism con't
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism con't
Posted by: Aim
» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute
Posted by: walterik
» RE: A Sucker Born Every Minute
Posted by: Aim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Jul 7, 2006 4:21 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» you dont know Jesus' politics; he wasnt human and probably wasnt real
Posted by: knocko
» RE: you dont know Jesus' politics; he wasnt human and probably wasnt real
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: sickofsleaze
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: knocko has all the answers. Arrogant trolls always do.
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» I didn't claim to be there...
Posted by: brunowe
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 7, 2006 4:21 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» your understanding of real life is pretty narrow
Posted by: knocko
» RE: your understanding of real life is pretty narrow
Posted by: mombot
» Troll methodology. . .
Posted by: peacefulaim
» RE: Troll methodology. . .
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: Troll methodology. . . is to disrupt discussions, create division
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» RE: your understanding of real life is pretty narrow
Posted by: shanaza
» opening debate
Posted by: nadezhda
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jenny on Jul 7, 2006 4:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, what Moon sponsored NGO put 10,000 copies of the video "George W. Bush: Faith in the White House" in churches across the nation before his last election?
Delamer Duverus
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» RE: Who's behind religious right
Posted by: lydia cypher
Comments are closed-
Posted by: enzolima on Jul 7, 2006 4:53 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» darned Jefferson
Posted by: knocko
» RE: darned Jefferson
Posted by: aussidawg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LMNOP on Jul 7, 2006 5:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This latter group of nonbelievers (to which I also belong) along with liberal Christians is outraged by political Christianity and its anti-Americanism implications. As the article above illustrates, the dominant entities in political Christianity support the Republican party, and they do this with tax exempt dollars, all of which liberals, especially nontheists, resent. So, there is a lot of antipathy for Christianity here as the posts above and those to follow will no doubt validate.
Some of the negativity expressed will not be just about conservative political Christianity, but also toward religion and faith in a general sense. Here, the anger has been shifted from the Christian leadership to its membership for empowering them.
Now what about the poor liberal Christian who also supports the principles of Americanism (separation of church and state, egalitarianism, democracy, diversity, tolerance, freedom to live as one chooses, etc.) and reads about all of the hatred many liberals have for organized religion and its political aspirations? Many will take it personally and defend their faith unnecessarily, and we will begin squabbling unnecessarily.
But with regard to the posts that criticize faith and its consequences, many of which I have written myself in the past, the liberal Christian will also feel assaulted, but this time he/she is justified in objecting as I have come to understand. It really is none of my business what you believe, just what you do if it affects me.
Unfortunately, these liberal Christians also sometimes cross a line if their defense of their faith turns into proselytizing. This is inappropriate, too, as few of us are interested. This is not a religious forum, but a political one that occasionally explores religion’s impact on politics.
I want to apologize for my past offenses in this area. I admit that I don’t see any merit in faith, and its dangers are vast and apparent. But I was just as wrong to make it an issue here or to preach secularism.
I implore my fellow nonbelievers to consider these ideas and choose your topics and words accordingly and with the understanding that many liberal Christians are people of faith, but that they respect the same principle for as we do with regard to how their religion should be legal entitled to affect us, namely, that faith should be a private matter and not politicized, that people should be free to enjoy freedom FROM religion.
And Christians, please, don’t be personally offended by attacks on conservative political Christianity. Those are not directed at you.
I suggest that we keep it political and avoid theological considerations.
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» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM....NOT
Posted by: NC3
» Clergy: Take A VOW of Silence(along with your critics)
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Clergy: Take A VOW of Silence(along with your critics)
Posted by: Mutternich
» Our very own Thomas Jefferson or Locke
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Our very own Thomas Jefferson or Locke
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: Clergy: Take A VOW of Silence(along with your critics)
Posted by: maribelle
» NC3's poor upbringing
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: Mutternich
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: peacefulaim
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: Jesse
» I might let up when Xians put their butt where there book is.
Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: SufiLizard
» Just because you ask.
Posted by: mokidugway
» GOOD POST, MOKIDUGWAY
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: GOOD POST, MOKIDUGWAY
Posted by: mokidugway
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: babs
» Something for you to consider...
Posted by: aussidawg
» Universist
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: Universist
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Universist
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Universist
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: Something for you to consider...
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Something for you to consider...
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Something for you to consider...
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Something for you to consider...
Posted by: aussidawg
» Thank you
Posted by: nadezhda
» RE: LET'S KEEP THE INFIGHTING TO A MINIMUM.
Posted by: Somedaysoon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kimaszi on Jul 7, 2006 5:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i'm suggesting separation of church and state *sounds like* a special issue. It sounds like it's anti-religion, even though it's not--but the religious right thrives on that, here in the not-very-secular u.s. What about some better framing?
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» RE: So what's next?
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: So what's next?
Posted by: ccrider27
» I have an idea.
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LMNOP on Jul 7, 2006 5:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Previously, I was encumbered by the notion that when one wrote or spoke about something, one should have a point. Clearly, as this piece of insight illustrates, that’s too rigid.
And I was also suffering from the delusion (of which I have now gratefully become disabused thanks to this insightful post) that the subject was conservative religious politics. Instead, we’re taking gratuitous pokes at Soros, Teresa and John Kerry, and Barbara Streissand. I also previously thought that one should not only have a point, it should be related the topic at hand.
But apparently I was mistaken. And it's a good thing too or else we wouldn't have this fine conservative mind's valuable and cogent contribution. All I can say is, “Ditto, Rush! No, make it mega-dittoes”.
Who is assigning these trolls to do so much posting of agitprop on this site of late?
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» Enter, Oh Mighty Gandolf
Posted by: knocko
» RE: nter, Oh Mighty Gandolf
Posted by: aebartle
» RE: TROLLS BEGONE!
Posted by: mombot
» RE: TROLLS BEGONE!
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: TROLLS BEGONE!
Posted by: peacefulaim
» YES, they are paid!!
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: TROLLS BEGONE!
Posted by: sirossisofliver
» What Do You Want
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: What Do You Want
Posted by: LMNOP
Comments are closed-
Posted by: knocko on Jul 7, 2006 5:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Carthy never came close to the smear of religion and of conservatives that the secular hard left commits in the US of today. McCarthy never had the media in his pocket the way the Left has gullible readers and young people thinking that religion=Fascism.
Keep it up. It will just keep exarcerbating the chasm between opposing poles in American life. You really do not want to get into a shoot-out with the Right. But that is where Left is heading. And it always loses shoot-outs. (Poor Rosa Luxembourg).
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» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: drone
» Comrade Winston
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Comrade Winston
Posted by: drone
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: gonzoskismet
» Ayatolla you so!
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: madmac10
» Key difference.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: mombot
» Liberal Ayatollahs
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Liberal Ayatollahs
Posted by: mombot
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: peacefulaim
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: ethanay
» You just proved our point
Posted by: SufiLizard
» RE: You just proved our point
Posted by: jonwilson
» Give yourself to love...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: babs
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: Ayatollahs are in Iran not in America
Posted by: shanaza
» 'Let's Assassinate Hugo Chavez'
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: 'Let's Assassinate Hugo Chavez'
Posted by: CovertRage
» Amen
Posted by: DavidTbone
» By the way
Posted by: DavidTbone
» Don't start wars? Don't subjugate women?
Posted by: chief of okeefe
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sausage on Jul 7, 2006 6:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As of this writing they are very close to their goal.
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» I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: knocko
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: mombot
» Live and Let Live
Posted by: knocko
» CORRECT 100%
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Live and Let Live
Posted by: peacefulaim
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: sausage
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: sausage
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: sausage
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: aussidawg
» This is about acceptance, peace, and love...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: I'm OK But Christians Aren't OK?
Posted by: Neruda
» RE: Trolls disappear when they've lost the argument. Notice how they fled?
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» Well stay tired of it
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: Well stay tired of it
Posted by: buffeliscious
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Urstrly on Jul 7, 2006 6:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But what does the left offer? We barely mention that separation of church and state protects THEM from overbearing religion. Nor do mainstream and liberal religions acknowledge the real spiritual emptiness of our culture. If you can't afford medical care and groceries at the same time, if you can't send your kids to private school, if you don't have a ride to church or nice clothes to wear there, religious freedom is only an abstraction. We need to make it real, to publicize the line between corporate and government repression and the religious right . Most of all, we need to offer the kind of spiritual sustenance that comes from acknowledging each and every person as a child of God. Until we do, the religious right will go on attracting the poor and the oppressed and the depressed. Maybe we're too comfortable with the way things are.
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» Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness(Damned Jewish Doctrine)
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness(Damned Jewish Doctrine)
Posted by: mombot
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness(Damned Jewish Doctrine)
Posted by: Katota
» Roman Holiday
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness(Damned Jewish Doctrine)
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Opportunity Abounds
Posted by: babs
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jul 7, 2006 6:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These people/groups are not about extending grace, mercy & peace to all of the world. These people/groups do not concern themselves with the widow, the orphan, the sick, the imprisoned and the outcast. These people/groups are not motivated by a love for people and a desire to see all people freed from the chains that bind them. What they are about is power, political influence and money.
These modern day Pharisees are about conforming people to a list of do's and don't that suit their personal bias. Jesus was harsh with the Pharisees because they were all about burdening people with a formulary of conduct rather than reaching out to their real needs. He called them 'whitewashed tombstones'-- people who desired to publicly appear religious and pious, but inside were greedy, hard-hearted and bound to their own corruption.
Christ-followers are not about binding people up with lists of do's and don'ts. They are not about playing in the political cesspool and do not seek to establish a theocracy.
What Christ-followers are about is very simple: loving God and all people as you love yourself. If you do that you will live peacefully, extend mercy and grace to others and strive to see all people free. The clowns of the christian media & political influence circus are about everything but that.
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» Jesus Nazerethsky
Posted by: knocko
» Hey knocko
Posted by: NC3
» RE: Hey knocko
Posted by: peacefulaim
» I'm here buddy
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Jesus Nazerethsky
Posted by: NoPCZone
» Sheeple
Posted by: NC3
» RE: Wolf Pack
Posted by: Albertagirl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 7, 2006 6:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: WHAT WOULD JESUS DO WITH ALL THAT MONEY ? Invest in A Home Construction Business
Posted by: knocko
» RE: WHAT WOULD JESUS DO WITH ALL THAT MONEY ? Invest in A Home Construction Business
Posted by: felipe
» Invest in Love
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Invest in Love
Posted by: CovertRage
» RE: WHAT WOULD JESUS DO WITH ALL THAT MONEY ?
Posted by: Somedaysoon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: symcokid on Jul 7, 2006 6:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There have been established Churches here for some time but now they've become as numerous as convenience stores with very minimum - no taxes. They all have the "Real Deal"! "What's in your wallet"? Every few years, the Zealots feel it neccessary to "Paraphrase" the Bible.
If people wish to follow any of these Religious Sects, fine, but can't Church and State be kept separate as was originally intended. Politics is corrupt enough without "Onward Christian Soldier, Marching as to War" and "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" rhetoric.
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» What Don't You Read a couple of Books Longer than 2 Pages?
Posted by: knocko
» RE: What Don't You Read a couple of Books Longer than 2 Pages?
Posted by: jimhurt
» YOU are the one confused about the Constitution's "Establishment Clause"!
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» NOTE: the above comment was directed toward "knocko", NOT toward jimhurt...
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: YOU are the one confused about the Constitution's "Establishment Clause"!
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Huh? How did you get "disenfranchisement" out of religious freedom?
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: Huh? How did you get "disenfranchisement" out of religious freedom?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» (sigh) You really don't get it.
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» Meh. Guess we'll just have to leave it there.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Okay...
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: What Don't You Read a couple of Books Longer than 2 Pages?
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: What Don't You Read a couple of Books Longer than 2 Pages?
Posted by: symcokid
» I know G. Bush; he is not a friend of mine
Posted by: knocko
» RE: I know G. Bush; he is not a friend of mine
Posted by: jimhurt
» RE: "I know G. Bush; he is not a friend of mine" Righty troll talking point, don't be fooled by this
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» RE: I know G. Bush; he is not a friend of mine
Posted by: buffeliscious
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 7, 2006 6:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: xbj on Jul 7, 2006 7:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because real Christians are to follow His life example, to the Cross if necessary. There is no doubt whatsoever that Jesus could, and would have, done politics better than anyone, but POLITICS IS NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN, A PLACE FOR REAL CHRISTIANS.
Indeed, entering politics BEYOND the simple crying out of the Truth, loud and long, is the first step toward Christianism, a complete perversion of real Christianity.
Each of the misled lost people in this article, as the majority of the misled lost people in their organizations, have become full-fledged Christianists. In Jesus Christ's time He called them Pharisees, hypocrites, "professionally" "religious" Jews that had all the knowledge of the Law and NONE OF THE SUBSTANCE, living only for the power and riches such a life brought them.
Christianists are "professional" Christians; their very livelihood depends on them remaining Christianists; if they were true followers of Christ, they'd GIVE EVERYTHING AWAY and STOP ASKING FOR ANYTHING OF ANYBODY, EVER.
They'd be horrified at the government of Israel's fascist policies, and not aiding and abetting them; they'd be doing everything they could TO PREVENT THE SECOND COMING FROM EVER HAVING TO HAPPEN; not rejoicing in a Rapture where billions will be left behind to endure God's wrath.
They'd be RUNNING from governing and political power and riches as Jesus did; not CHASING THEM.
No, these professional Christianists were EXACTLY the ones God was speaking to when He said, at the last judgment, when they claimed to cast out demons in His name and bring millions of souls to Christ, He would say "Depart from me ye Workers of Iniquity; I NEVER KNEW YE."
So please, always judge Christianity by the life and example and teaching of Jesus Christ and no one else; not one human being who ever lived is worthy of judging Christianity by.
On the contrary, a handful of other people throughout history (Ghandi comes to mind) were closer to Jesus Christ than any Pope, priest, minister, parson, or pastor that ever lived. And precisely because he was not a Christian, NEVER FELL VICTIM TO THE TRAP OF CHRISTIANISM and perhaps gave us an inkling of how Jesus Christ Himself would govern, one day WHEN IT IS TIME and all that could possibly come to God willingly will have done so.
Thanks for reading.
ChristiansAgainstBush.net
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» Real Christians?
Posted by: NC3
» Of course "real Christians" vote, etc., BUT...
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» Assorted Heathen Unite!
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Assorted Heathen Unite!
Posted by: babs
» RE: Assorted Heathen Unite!
Posted by: xbj
» RE: Assorted Heathen Unite!
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Assorted Heathen Unite!
Posted by: xbj
» RE: eal Christians?
Posted by: xbj
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Stealthdragoon on Jul 7, 2006 7:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People in America and the Blue state liberal america should be aware of those who want to bring american into a Christain Taliban like country.
The Biggest fear is that these people are a clear and present danger to America, it's freedom, democracy, it's US Constitution and the bill of rights. These groups are far worse of a terror threat than any other in the world and these groups listed here should be treated like terror groups and should be watched like terror groups.
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» RE: The top ten most Dangerous organizations in America
Posted by: Lincoln fan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jimhurt on Jul 7, 2006 7:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say we use the anger of these people against them. Force them to go on record over and over again about how they feel about Presbiterians, Catholics and Jews. I leave out Muslims and Budists because I am not sure if that would be a political plus or minus.
Force them to go on the record in blunter turms about having the Government force behaviors. Women who want an Abortion will be forced to due what and how? Gay people will have what done to them?
Lets also hit them with the "liberal" Christ. What would Jesus do about hunger, Wealth distribution and Militarism?
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» Jesus was not a campaigner nor did he read the polls
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Jesus was not a campaigner nor did he read the polls
Posted by: babs
» Unfortunately...
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Jim Hurt
Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: Yes, jonwilson we liberals want to take your freedoms away. First, we'll take the gun out of
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jul 7, 2006 8:02 AM
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We have all kinds of churches pulling the tax-free scam. Christian, Jewish, "fringe" and cult, etc. Ask L. Ron Hubbard Jr. (the son of the founder of Scientology) about the benefits of the tax system for even the craziest of religions.
Churches in the Middle Ages made themselves rich by avoiding taxation and were corrupted in the process. We should do them a favor and remove most of this exemption. We can reduce their power and gain some much needed tax revenue in the process. We can also make them more honest.
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» RE: Tax churches
Posted by: ChrisBieber
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Posted by: supercrisp on Jul 7, 2006 8:41 AM
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» RE: *Snicker*
Posted by: knocko
» RE: They're sending new trolls here on a weekly basis. 1 week ago, a troll here said that he was
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill on Jul 7, 2006 9:06 AM
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The gospel also tells us that Jesus was "tempted" to assume political power. It is said that "Satan" (a word meaning "the acuser", among other things) took Jesus to a mountaintop and offered him all the power and riches of the "whole world" if Jesus would worship Satan. Jesus refused. His refusal led inexorably to the cross.
C.S. Lewis wisely observed that only TWO kinds of power are available to us in this four-dimensional world: political power & SPIRITUAL POWER. Great leaders can sometimes use spiritual power to effect political ends (Ghandi and MLK come to mind), but is is IMPOSSIBLE to reach spiritual goals by mere political power, i.e., coercion!
The scary "Christianists" in this article need to learn that!
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» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know. (He might have been thinking of you)
Posted by: SufiLizard
» You have no idea how "close to the heart" I hold my religion; and furthermore,...
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know.
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know.
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know.
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know.
Posted by: knocko
» RE: Jesus predicted all this, ya' know.
Posted by: buffeliscious
» Religion a vehicle for some
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: The invasion of mainstream churches by righty activists to divide and conquer has been documente
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cthelyt on Jul 7, 2006 9:10 AM
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Those who believe that liberalism, free thought, and democracy can coexist with organized religion are fooling themselves. Religion struggles to free itself from the box in which liberal politics attempts to quarantine it. It must escape and poison the body politic, or it will die. The rise of the religious right in our time is but another event in a long-term history of religion chafing at the bonds that civil society imposes on it. The struggle will continue until religions end, if they ever do, or they triumph and repress independent thought to the point that universal ignorance is permanently restored and factual knowledge becomes the property of a privileged few.
So, all you well-intentioned compromisers out there, know who and what you are dealing with before you extend a hand in friendship and respect. In the end, the religious wingnuts that many of us so despise and try to isolate really do belong in the mainstream of organized religion. They are the vanguard of the prophets of doom, the doom that awaits all who will not surrender their ability to see and think for themselves to an authority that lies beyond their control. Laugh at them only nervously.
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» RE: Waste of time ect.
Posted by: NC3
» RE: Waste of time ect.
Posted by: babs
» RE: Troll NC3 was present at the founding of our country but failed to observe that the founding
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
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Posted by: dirkster42 on Jul 7, 2006 10:30 AM
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For progressive religious thought, check out this handy list of books.
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» RE: Add Institute for Religion and Democracy
Posted by: NC3
» ignorance
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Add Institute for Religion and Democracy
Posted by: dirkster42
» RE: Pity NC3, he won't survive in a Dominionist society. And what will happen to his daughter when
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» d'oh!!!
Posted by: dirkster42
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Posted by: pzzp on Jul 7, 2006 10:32 AM
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» Who Getting Big?
Posted by: knocko
» RE: If UUA is not a church then, you are not a human
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
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Posted by: DavidTbone on Jul 7, 2006 11:02 AM
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A sacrifice of ill-gotten gains is tainted
and the gifts of the wicked win no approval
The Most High has no pleasure in the offerings of the godless
nor do countless sacrifices win His forgiveness
To offer a sacrifice from the possessions of the poor
is like killing a son before his father's eyes.
Bread is life to the destitute,
and to deprive them of it is murder.
To rob your neighbor of his livelihood is to murder him,
and he who defrauds a worker of his wages sheds blood.
Ecc 34 18-22
We competed against the Soviet empire with one of our own for decades. The US won, because we set up dictatorships who murdered any dissenters, including as Reagan put it, the 'soft targets'. In addition to becoming pawns of the cold war, the people of these countries began producing cheap goods and resources for US corporations. This is not 'loving thy neighbor' let alone 'loving thine enemy'. While we are a nation of many faiths and -isms, Christians MUST take a stand against these imperial right wingers who only lust for more power. Greed is the diety that this nation worships. Followers of Christ, and everyone else, should know that these people are wicked.
The question is not who you believe in, but what you believe. Do you believe these organizations reflect moral values? Is condemnation and self righteousness a reflection of morality? Some of these organizations helped steal Ohio for George Bush in 2004. They are connected to Diebold, ISS, and all of the bad guys. Does it really take the slandering of an entire faith to question their conduct? Remember, for every right wing nut job, there is a Christian in Honduras sewing buttons on the Gap back-to-school line. For every minister who promotes blind nationalism and hangs yellow ribbons on the cross, there are catholics in Guatemala making your underpants. You cannot be part of a movement that promotes diversity and multiculturalism if you alienate a large population of the world, many of whom our tax and consumer dollars have oppressed for generations.
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» RE: Wolves in sheeps clothing....MOST OF THE PROBLEMS
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Wolves in sheeps clothing....MOST OF THE PROBLEMS
Posted by: DavidTbone
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Jul 7, 2006 12:58 PM
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So what. They are so superficial as to be easily discredited with little intellectual effort. As many suckers as they attract, just as many opponents are created by their crackpot ideas.
I say give them only as much publicity as is required to reveal what they do. What they spout and preach has never worked. It's like the dog that barks at the mailman. So long as the mailman leaves, the dog thinks what he's doing is working.
That's why the primary argument of the fundamentalists is a tally of numbers. So all they do is try to sign up more members. As if one could count who's religious.
Maybe if journalists of the American way stopped tooting the radical right's horn for them, we'd see that they'd stop barking so loudly. Ignore them.
I do admit that the pathetic religious illiteracy of Americans makes for a sucker born every minute. But stop fighting the circus. It's just for killing time.
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» RE: AGAIN, SOME ONE IS NOT DOING THEIR
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: AGAIN, SOME ONE IS NOT DOING THEIR
Posted by: WyrdSister
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Posted by: 1984NOW!!! on Jul 7, 2006 1:38 PM
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Dictatorships that prohibit religious freedoms, even to be an atheist, are equally undesirable. We don't even need to look too far back in history to see the faults in totalitaristic dictatorships, they go back as far as history is known, that wherever religious governments were in power, or governments prohibited religion, the citizens were not free to personal happiness and satisfaction. Often in religious governments the people were totally subjugated and all of their achievements and their very lives were under the ownership of the rulers. One of my favorite totalitarian states to point out, which many may deem irrelevant here and now were the Aztecs.
Basically they were slaves. They could not criticize, they could not petition, they could not have differing points of view from the state's rigid religious dogma.
Of course, the more current examples are the countries ruled by the Ayatollahs and or the bin Ladens, so I think the
analogy made to the religious fundamentalists in this country are appropriate, and something to avoid with everything we have
The writer of this article made one mistake in my opinion. There should be an 11th added to the money grubbing, pseudo Christians, fascists, bigots. The organization is located in our White House and is fronted by a wanna-be ayattollah/dictator who just turned 60 and who is supported by the top 10.
Interesting that one of the posts mentioned that religion should not be judged by reason and rationalism. Reason and rationalism is what we arrived to after Paganism and
unrealistic superstition, and these zombie fundamentalists want all of us to go back to that!??
THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT IT IS OR IS NOT CLEARLY DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION, IS WHAT ALLOWED THIS COUNTRY TO NURTURE HAPPY AND SUCCESSFUL CITIZENS.
THOSE OF YOU OUT THERE WHO CANNOT SEE THE INSIDIOUS DANGER OF ALLOWING THE FALWELLS AND ROBERTSONS, TO DICTATE OUR COUNTRY'S FUTURE POLICES NEED TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS
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» RE: Down with all...SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE WORKED ONLY BECAUSE
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: oh boy
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Secularity
Posted by: WyrdSister
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Posted by: aussidawg on Jul 7, 2006 1:41 PM
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Posted by: Riverside on Jul 7, 2006 1:53 PM
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You see, the good Lord made us quite powerful. It is us, not Him who will decide our fate and longevity on Earth. If we want to annihilate each other, as we regularly try to do, then have at it. God will not interfere.
Similarly, if in moments of compassion and concern we turn to each other in a caring and giving manner, then so be it, and God will sigh in relief and hope. In this latter case, the most beautiful outcome is that if we persist in our care for each other, things for all of us get better. Now that is God's reward, that he built into our powerful independence from the get go. In this case He just smiles and bursts in the most joyous songs.
Right now, however, God weeps more than he sings. So how about it, can we become, again, really caring, loving humans and in so doing dry God's tears?
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» My God also weeps at human cruelty and stupidity
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: My God also weeps at human cruelty and stupidity
Posted by: Riverside
» RE: Tell Me Why...?
Posted by: shanaza
» RE: Tell Me Why...?
Posted by: Riverside
» RE: Tell Me Why...? OK, I'LL TELL YOU WHY...
Posted by: SamFox
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Joshua Holland on Jul 7, 2006 1:59 PM
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Posted by: gonzoskismet on Jul 7, 2006 3:34 PM
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» RE: Just One Point...ABOUT THE IRS...
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: maribelle on Jul 7, 2006 4:26 PM
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I just checked the first three sites listed here, but none have message boards that I could find. (figures! They give you the truth, they don't want to hear yours.)
I for one am getting tired of either preaching to the choir and/or arguing with the RR trolls.
Anyone else with me?
**I DO NOT ADVOCATE GOING ON THEIR BOARDS AND INSULTING THEM**that is pointless and only proves to them that liberals are godless heathens--like that's a bad thing. :-)
Just advocating presenting the careful, reasoned opposing ideas like a few of the conservative posters do here on occasion. I personally love it when they give me something I hadn't considered, and I have to research carefully to find out the real story. It's good karma. And they're not going to hear it on Fox News Network.
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» RE: PLEASE POST LINKS TO RIGHT WING MESSAGE BOARDS
Posted by: jimhurt
» RE: PLEASE POST LINKS TO RIGHT WING MESSAGE BOARDS
Posted by: knocko
» RE: There aren't any
Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» FreeRepublic is Bad
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: PLEASE POST LINKS TO RIGHT WING MESSAGE BOARDS
Posted by: Riverside
» RE: PLEASE POST LINKS TO RIGHT WING MESSAGE BOARDS
Posted by: maribelle
» Better Educated
Posted by: Joe Ox
» RE: PLEASE POST LINKS TO RIGHT WING MESSAGE BOARDS
Posted by: WyrdSister
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Moonray on Jul 7, 2006 5:25 PM
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As long as large numbers of people reject logic and embrace fairy-tales regarding how our universe operates, no amount of hand-wringing over "extremists" will do any good -- and humanity will stay on the path to self-destruction.
So-called religious moderates are just the enablers of the Bible-thumpers and ayatollahs. A pox on all your houses.
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» RE: eligion is just a symptom
Posted by: jonwilson
» Yes!
Posted by: Moonray
» Logic is about validity not about truth.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Verbal tap-dancing
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: eligion is just a symptom--well said moonray!
Posted by: zooeyhall
» Love
Posted by: DavidTbone
» Excuse me, but . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» hmmmmm....
Posted by: DavidTbone
» Alternet's lying troll of the week award goes to SamFox!!!!!
Posted by: apost8
» Thanks, Sam . . .
Posted by: Moonray
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Posted by: jonwilson on Jul 7, 2006 5:32 PM
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HOW DARE THEM!
Do they think the Constitution guarantees them freedom of religion or something?
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» RE: Down with freedom of religion!
Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: Down with freedom of religion!
Posted by: jonwilson
» DOWN WITH DICTATORS OF RELIGION or of GOVERNMENTS
Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: DOWN WITH DICTATORS OF RELIGION or of GOVERNMENTS
Posted by: jonwilson
» An argument for separation...
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: An argument for separation...
Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» he's a bot
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: An argument for separation...
Posted by: jonwilson
» RE: An argument for separation...
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Down with freedom of religion!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: apost8 on Jul 7, 2006 8:54 PM
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I'm an atheist and a progressive. I've found no truth, or comfort in religion. That is, however, a personal observation.
If you are a religious progressive who can respect my point of view, then you are not an enemy. I can agree to disagree if you can.
What we need to do as progressives is not to fight with each other over things we will never change each other's minds on. What our goal should be is to expose the evil and the threat to all of our liberties that dominionism represents.Bravo to Alternet for this article. Hope to see more like it.
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» RE: An observation
Posted by: MEL810
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Posted by: eastcoker on Jul 7, 2006 10:07 PM
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I especially am dancing for FOF with my spear. It is time to cut off heads and serve them up on platters.
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» RE: Time to go to war!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
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Posted by: jolo on Jul 7, 2006 11:45 PM
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Rather than attempting to having dialogue and discussion, they prefer. and are told to, label rather think. That is SO divise and is hurting this nation so much. Discussion and dialogue is what is needed.
Two things that are important (I think)
As an American, I come from a great nation of people.
As an American, I am ashamed, disgusted, repulsed, by the actions of the U.S. Federal government, particularly the Executive and Legislative branches. They are controled by Corporate dollars and special interest groups.
This is in the same way that I do not think that Australian PM John Howard's total support and promotion of U.S. President's Bush's occupation of Iraq and claim that Bush (and himself) had no knowledge whatsoever of the torture going on in Abu Ghraib is reflective of the Austrailian people. Whatever the selfish motives that the Austrailian government has to be a close second to Tony Blair as the only two Bush supporters from governments in the world, is a reflection of the citizens of Australia.
The Administration of the U.S. has virtually no political ideology, the behaviors are about as anti-conservative in nature as they can be). You know, destruction of states rights, reckless, uncontroled spending, enormous budget and trade deficits. The lack of enforcement of federal laws. Creating a whole new Trillion dollar branch of the government. The lack of loyalty to the Constitution. The illegal and out of control spying and servailance of U.S. citizens, done with virtually no warrants or knowledge from the Justice Department.
Massive increase of the size and scope of the Federal government.
The giving out of BIDLESS government contracts. Then the announcement of further contracts will be given to ONLY those who support President Bush's policies.
The major outsourcing of the U.S. military to organizations like Blackwater, which make it impossible to examine budgets, behaviors or control by anyone other than the Administration.
The reckless involvment in a soverign government's affairs. so much that the U.S. military is sent, to occupy the nation. This being done, NOT for defense purposes, as a conservative would never, ever get involved with military force in other nations, unless threatened.
The reason, if anyone really remembers, was to find and remove the weapons of mass destruction that supposedly put the U.S. at risk.
So, PLEASE understand that there are no liberals or conservative philosophies involved with this. Keep the slurs and the labels out.
Follow the money, research, be open, dialogue and understand that we have only ONE party in the U.S., the "GREEN PARTY", green as in dollars.
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» Everything political has a "For Sale" sign on it these days.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Consumerism too.
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Drop the Liberal, Conservative propaganda, please
Posted by: Aussie Kim
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Posted by: bfranky on Jul 8, 2006 5:56 AM
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Posted by: Joe Ox on Jul 8, 2006 11:28 AM
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Now, you have a perception of the desires of the Christian right, though I wouldnt classify it the way you do, but list for me the tangible gains they have made in legislating and even impacting our culture.
Can't pray in school
Can't speak of religion at work
Can't display religious symbols many places
Systematic elimination of religion from history
Private clubs very limited if they are religious in nature
Christianity especially is fair game to ridicule, no risk of hate crimes or any other protections exist
The list goes on and on.
I just don't see the problem. YOU ARE WINNING and paranoid as hell that you will lose. You will likely point to gay marriage, but that is not easily comparable. Not being able to pray in school for example impacts everone. And it was declared by judiciary, not by referendum. Gay marriage impacts gays who want to marry. If you are a heterosexual who is married, you may be passionate about the right for gays to marry, but at days end, you are not personally impacted. AND, gay marriage has been limited by THE PEOPLE voting. What is wrong with popular will?
I guess if you need something to fear, fine, but these guys are no threat to you.
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» RE: Whats to Fear?
Posted by: DavidTbone
» Lack of Morality
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Lack of Morality
Posted by: Joe Ox
» Popular Will...
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: Popular Will...
Posted by: Joe Ox
» Aw come on, don't get mad.....
Posted by: DavidTbone
» The drug war.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Whats to Fear?
Posted by: Aussie Kim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cispirit on Jul 8, 2006 12:55 PM
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Posted by: Michelle on Jul 8, 2006 1:28 PM
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Sheldon Quote: “A dangerous Marxist/Leftist/Homosexual/Islamic coalition has formed – and we’d better be willing to fight it with everything in our power...." (“The War on Christianity,” column, TVC Web site, Dec. 13, 2005)
I think there is a whole comedy sketch here. Picture the meetings of this supposed coalition! Oh my. So much good material.
Quick, someone -- hire a touchy-feely "team-building" consultant for this coalition!
PS I initially wondered why the Jews were not in this coalition, but I think "Marxist" does double duty as a codeword.
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Posted by: ChrisBieber on Jul 8, 2006 10:35 PM
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You and your Marxist philosophy are redolent with class warfare claptrap that is almost Huey Long-ish in its demagoguery...
would have fit right in with like-minded Robespierre.....
oh and by the way your despising of the Church is typical and predictable...you should be happy soon as your feeble attempts at lashing out at the Church will be realized soon enough...
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» such anger....
Posted by: DavidTbone
» RE: such anger....
Posted by: Wish
» problem solved
Posted by: DavidTbone
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Wish on Jul 9, 2006 2:43 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People love to be led by ignorance. Not-knowing in itself is not a crime. Having yourself being led by ignorance is. That leads to prejudice and judgements, intolerance and hatred.
When people are afraid they want a so called "strong" (wo)man telling them where they should focus their anger on. And do so willingly. Because it's always it's never their own fault, but always "the other's" (talking about immaturity...).
These "power brokers" are the most despicable, cowardly monstrous lowlifes around. And did you read the quotes, here and elsewhere? They have the arrogance to know what Jesus would have done, what their god would have done. Thus they perform the biggest blasphemy of all: they compare themselves to their god-almighty....(non capital intended)
Basically, people are so afraid of LIFE itself!
Life means change. Life IS change!
But desperately trying to hold on to some kind of 'status quo' which does not really exist, because everything is changing.
Imagine how much energy and effort it takes to stop the tides or the wind...That is what they put in to stop the flow of life.
These so called self-proclaimed "pro-life" doorknobs, don't dare to live life itself. Give themselves over to the flow of life.
Imagine they encounter something out of the unknown...the horror. Imagine they'd have to get out of their fortress and wander around in "the wilderness".
Imagine they'd have to open their minds, hearts and souls for something different than their rigid, very very narrow minded and truly scary belief system...the terror.
Look at life. Look at life literally. Look at how your own body functions in all its details (whether you belief in evolution or - ignorantly - refuse to).
Life is a wonder. The biggest wonder of all. And all you do is rejecting the wonder. The wonder that - if you want to call it that way - your god has given you. What have you done with it?
What? Protect the innocent children?
From whom?!
All I see is they need to be protected from you!
From various trainings I have come to learn that children are mostly formed in their youngest years. And the more rigid and hateful and even violent (didn't that one guy promote corporal punishment to children?!), and the less attention for the true needs of the child, loving, touching (and I'm not talking sexual, you perverts), the more scarred the child will be, later, and through his life.
You're decisions how to raise a child don't even need to be conscious. The child will know.
Those 'power brokers', that feed on the fear of people like vampires, that feed then more fear and hatred and ignorance (what they tell is pure lies), abusing their position, what can be done about them? If millions of people keep to be willing to be gullible and ignorant (I repeat that word again)? With their ADDICTION to living in fear. Their addiction to live in blaming others for what they should look at themselves at?
It's like 'fulminaters' like Ann Coulter are still able to spread their bile and puke, cause people are still reading it.
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» People want to be fooled and lied to - part 2
Posted by: Wish
» Great sermon--one suggestion.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: shangrilalad on Jul 9, 2006 8:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someone made the point that trying to reason with the rabid religious right is an exercise in futility because they suffer from “invincible ignorance.” No matter the evidence they see or hear, they will ignore and deny all facts that contradict their "faith based" intolerances and prejudices. Some of their "best and brightest" can read and write, but what they can’t and won’t do is think, because thinking threatens their self-esteem.
The willfully ignorant cling to their denial of reality as desperately as someone adrift in the ocean clings to an overturned lifeboat. All of their self-serving justifications and hypocrisies are too fragile to risk self-examination. At some level of consciousness they instinctively recognize the danger and recoil from the truth like a flame . . . and then they attack the messenger.
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» RE: "Invincible Ignorance” WHAT EVIDENCE ARE YOU
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: "Invincible Ignorance” WHAT EVIDENCE ARE YOU
Posted by: shangrilalad
» RE: "ANTI-CHRISTIAN HATEMONGERS"??? PLEASE SUPPORT YOUR
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jul 9, 2006 8:32 AM
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» RE: I only wish....
Posted by: Roverton
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Posted by: SamFox on Jul 9, 2006 2:07 PM
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I wonder: Are the author and posters looking for the truth or using those on the list to justify wanting to keep God from influincing their lives, to make it OK in their heads to live any old way they want? Do we really believe that 'my opinion' is the ultimate truth? Or are you open minded enough to do the research on just how authentic the Bible and NT Chistianity really is? NT Christianity was started by Jesus. His followers carried it forward. These followers were in a position to KNOW if Jesus was dead or really resurectd. If He were still dead, they gave their lives for a teaching THEY KNEW WAS FALSE!!! The historical (like the Catholic church) stuff that happened later in His Name that was not from God is no excuse for us...
Who was it that founded this Nation? Mostly Christians! Only about a dozen of the (two hundred or so?) founders were diests or unbelievers.
On a search site I enterd 'Constitution'. The 1st Ammendment reads in part: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." the rest dealing with free speech & press. No seperation of Church and state in there at all, ecept that the Gov. is to be hands off. This was to keep Gov out of religion not religion out of Gov. Posting the 10 Commandments, crosses at war memorials or public prayer do not constitute gov. establishing a religion. The relegion had already been established, most of the Founders believed in it and this amendment was to protect it and any other that citizans choose to follow.
What we really have is some groups want to remove the Christion influence and substitute the religion of secularizm. I might not agree with how Ann Coulter says some things but by and large her book 'Godless...' hits the nail on the head. Her detractors mostly refute her incendiary style but are kinda stuck when it comes to her over all view.
Check out all the Bible refrences the Founders quoted, the prayers they MADE IN PUBLIC and so on...The ACLU would have gone crazy!!!
If it were not for the Bible based Christian influence on our countries origins you would probably not have the right to disagree. Check out the King and Church of England at the time. Would you rather have that as the law of the land?
Most of the negitive against those on the list show fear. The fear of the truth by their detractors who justify free for all sex, to abort the results, homo sex perversion and other destructive behaviours legitimized while ignoring the resulting death toll from STDs, homosexual lifestyles and millions of dead un-born children.
Only a fool says in his heart there is no God!
SamFox
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» RE: VEN IF THE GROUPS AND PEOPLE ON THE LIST
Posted by: FI10Gale
» RE: VEN IF THE GROUPS AND PEOPLE ON THE LIST
Posted by: FI10Gale
» RE: VEN IF THE GROUPS AND PEOPLE ON THE LIST
Posted by: shangrilalad
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Posted by: FI10Gale on Jul 9, 2006 3:33 PM
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He should be on this list. His finanicial Influence over the Bush family is historical. Pappy Bush (41) is paid millions to do speeches for this convicted felon. How can a convicted felon be allowed to even own any kind of large media outlet...Newspapers...Radio Stations....If only there were a hell for these....these....cretins to fry for eternity...
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Posted by: popsicle67 on Jul 9, 2006 5:49 PM
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does serve to point out one important trait they all must have
to keep up their minisries. An unmitigated gall surpassed only by an awe-enspiring arrogance. I am secure in the fact that I don't have to worry about their invisible man punishing me any more than more than I worry about how mad a democrat is though. If god does exist and he does punish nonbelievers,
I'll have all ten of those list members ahead of me in line because belief isn't what they are selling,they are selling themselves, which is what all religious leaders do.
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Posted by: sirossisofliver on Jul 9, 2006 9:48 PM
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With every new Alternet Blog discussion, watch out for the following Neo-Con WingNut Infiltrators:
knocko
rightwing1
NC3
RWcowboy
Phenix
Supercrisp
zvirgil2
resistance6
conservasaurus
butthead
PLEASE refrain from responding to their agenda-driven, NeoCon Drivel in order to prevent them from high-jacking the threads.
IGNORING THESE ACEREBRAL IDIOTS ALLOWS US TO CARRY ON WITH OUR REASONED DISCUSSIONS.
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» RE: Troll Alert
Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: Troll Alert
Posted by: starjumper
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Posted by: Reader11722 on Jul 10, 2006 5:24 AM
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Support indy medai like Alter,
Last link (before Google Books bends to Gov't pressure):
http://www.iuniverse.com/
bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0
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Posted by: JDHorn on Jul 10, 2006 9:08 AM
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It means no tax exempt status for all religious organisations, including schools and hospitals. And it means ending the charitable contributions income tax deduction to all religious societies. Not that this would starve these parasitic charlatains for funds, but it sure would cut them down to size.
This is easy for me to say, because I have no use for religion in any way, shape or form. And, it ain't going to happen. I know of no politician who hasn't got his tongue up the arse of some pastor, priest, or rabbi!
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Posted by: starjumper on Jul 11, 2006 9:13 AM
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Posted by: martye on Jul 13, 2006 1:48 PM
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Posted by: cheneybush2008 on Dec 30, 2006 12:39 PM
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