I am going to send it around to other Aussies so we can better identify exactly why it is we are so f*cken frightened of your dangerous, freaky, psychotic country.

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Pharisees and false prophets, all of them. This is a rogues gallery of people who would have stood before the Patrician's Palace along side Caiphas and have shouted, "Crucify him!"

What they are doing to America has nothing to do with either religion or spirituality; it's all politics.

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The most revolutionary minded of our visionary founding fathers was the radical writer, Tom Paine. With flaming hopes and a vision of a new world, compelled by a spirit and determination and persistence to resist the British occupation, Paine devoted himself to the expression of what became the United States of American. A failure at everything until he published "Common Sense" which emboldened immigrants to become compatriots and rise up in rebellion in the name of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness which birthed a nation where democracy is still being defined.

“Soon after I had published the pamphlet Common Sense, [Feb. 14, 1776] in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion… The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.”-Tom Paine

May THAT revolution resume...


-excerpted from 7/5/06 WAWA BLOG

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Clerical fascists do not want to run the state or be part of it. They want to keep order in a society that is run by fascists, hence they want support from and give support to fascist regimes and movements. These fundamentalists do not want a theocracy or a theocratic state. They want a fascist -secular-state which understands that it needs their support. That is why they love the ultra right--- the ultra right is fascist.

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Reading this list of "religious" organizations is more like reading a list of fascist organizations. They all have the same theme; we know who God is and what the Bible means and will protect you from the hords of those other "evil" people who are trying to take them away. I am not sure which is more sad and pathetic, those who promote themselves as religious leaders but are only after their own self serving power needs or those who follow them and lose their own soul. But again it is simply a matter of the Barnum and Bailey circus show creed "There is a sucker born every mintue."

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As a longtime history buff and political junkie, I believe Jesus was a flaming liberal and he was also a firm believer in separation of church and state. His "Render unto Caeser" answer the heckler shows that clearly

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How millions of people can believe these prancing, yelping fools is a matter completely beyond my understianding. I can't stand to listen to any of them for more than a few minutes before throwing my hands up in disgust and even wondering if they can really be human.

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So many of these "power brokers" are only power brokers because of Rev. Moon's money. Moon put Judge Moore into office through Kennedy and Coral Ridge and others. The question is: "Who's behind Rev. Moon?" See Robert Parry's articles, and Larry Hecht's articles "The "No Soul" gang behind Reverend Moon . . . "
Also, what Moon sponsored NGO put 10,000 copies of the video "George W. Bush: Faith in the White House" in churches across the nation before his last election?

Delamer Duverus

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Great stuff. Now if only somehow they couyld all go away.

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There have been several Alternet articles over the last year or two on the political aspects of American religion, none of which is very encouraging just like this one. And the Alternet posting community, like most, is a mix of believers and other kinds of people as well, including atheists and agnostics.

This latter group of nonbelievers (to which I also belong) along with liberal Christians is outraged by political Christianity and its anti-Americanism implications. As the article above illustrates, the dominant entities in political Christianity support the Republican party, and they do this with tax exempt dollars, all of which liberals, especially nontheists, resent. So, there is a lot of antipathy for Christianity here as the posts above and those to follow will no doubt validate.

Some of the negativity expressed will not be just about conservative political Christianity, but also toward religion and faith in a general sense. Here, the anger has been shifted from the Christian leadership to its membership for empowering them.

Now what about the poor liberal Christian who also supports the principles of Americanism (separation of church and state, egalitarianism, democracy, diversity, tolerance, freedom to live as one chooses, etc.) and reads about all of the hatred many liberals have for organized religion and its political aspirations? Many will take it personally and defend their faith unnecessarily, and we will begin squabbling unnecessarily.

But with regard to the posts that criticize faith and its consequences, many of which I have written myself in the past, the liberal Christian will also feel assaulted, but this time he/she is justified in objecting as I have come to understand. It really is none of my business what you believe, just what you do if it affects me.

Unfortunately, these liberal Christians also sometimes cross a line if their defense of their faith turns into proselytizing. This is inappropriate, too, as few of us are interested. This is not a religious forum, but a political one that occasionally explores religion’s impact on politics.

I want to apologize for my past offenses in this area. I admit that I don’t see any merit in faith, and its dangers are vast and apparent. But I was just as wrong to make it an issue here or to preach secularism.

I implore my fellow nonbelievers to consider these ideas and choose your topics and words accordingly and with the understanding that many liberal Christians are people of faith, but that they respect the same principle for as we do with regard to how their religion should be legal entitled to affect us, namely, that faith should be a private matter and not politicized, that people should be free to enjoy freedom FROM religion.

And Christians, please, don’t be personally offended by attacks on conservative political Christianity. Those are not directed at you.

I suggest that we keep it political and avoid theological considerations.

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Great article, Americans United folks. so... how the hell did they amass so much money, anyway? the standard "the christian right created direct mail" story? how do we cut them off from the cash? got any plans to dismantle W's faith-based funding program? Investigating these organizations for the kind of corruption we've come to expect from the u.s. right? your website looks like the usual progressive-left build locally, etc. action plan, which is fine, but are you making coalitions with other progressive groups, esp other groups that are constantly under attack from these top 10? and what about (previous commenters will gasp) getting together with the "spiritual progressives"? they are actually FOR separation of church and state, if you look at their practice and proposed policy.

i'm suggesting separation of church and state *sounds like* a special issue. It sounds like it's anti-religion, even though it's not--but the religious right thrives on that, here in the not-very-secular u.s. What about some better framing?

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Here's another example of some fine conservative input. It is such an honor to get a visit from the other side and to be schooled by one of them. I learned so much, and my thinking has been radically altered as a result of this post.

Previously, I was encumbered by the notion that when one wrote or spoke about something, one should have a point. Clearly, as this piece of insight illustrates, that’s too rigid.

And I was also suffering from the delusion (of which I have now gratefully become disabused thanks to this insightful post) that the subject was conservative religious politics. Instead, we’re taking gratuitous pokes at Soros, Teresa and John Kerry, and Barbara Streissand. I also previously thought that one should not only have a point, it should be related the topic at hand.

But apparently I was mistaken. And it's a good thing too or else we wouldn't have this fine conservative mind's valuable and cogent contribution. All I can say is, “Ditto, Rush! No, make it mega-dittoes”.

Who is assigning these trolls to do so much posting of agitprop on this site of late?

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The connotation of ayatollah to describe certain Christians in American politics is defamatory. the term refers to Iran religious leaders who simultaneously serve as dictators in a totalitarian state. the analogy simply doesn't apply to the US. Read any series of newspaper articles or the several excellent Iranian novels by women that have been acclimed by critics in the West, and it's obvious that the author of this post is exercising irresponsible hyperbole and character assasination. Real ayatollahs murder, start wars, enslave women, persectue religious minorties by jail and torture, and totally infuse the entire education system with religious oversight. Not a single person cited in your top Ten even comes clothers to an objective version of an Iranian "ayatollah". Joe Mc
Carthy never came close to the smear of religion and of conservatives that the secular hard left commits in the US of today. McCarthy never had the media in his pocket the way the Left has gullible readers and young people thinking that religion=Fascism.

Keep it up. It will just keep exarcerbating the chasm between opposing poles in American life. You really do not want to get into a shoot-out with the Right. But that is where Left is heading. And it always loses shoot-outs. (Poor Rosa Luxembourg).

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If there is anything in common with the ten organizations it is that all have a decidedlyDominionist Christian slant. The hoped for result of all this lobbying, proselytizing, propaganda and down right lying is the foundation of a theocractic government in Washington, D.C.

As of this writing they are very close to their goal.

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Looking at the numbers, it's clear someone besides little old ladies has an interest in this kind of religion. Why does the right find it a good investment? It keeps people "in their place," docile, hoping for better things in the next life, and pointing their fingers at some imagined villain—gays, Jews, abortion providers, blacks, immigrants, you name it.

But what does the left offer? We barely mention that separation of church and state protects THEM from overbearing religion. Nor do mainstream and liberal religions acknowledge the real spiritual emptiness of our culture. If you can't afford medical care and groceries at the same time, if you can't send your kids to private school, if you don't have a ride to church or nice clothes to wear there, religious freedom is only an abstraction. We need to make it real, to publicize the line between corporate and government repression and the religious right . Most of all, we need to offer the kind of spiritual sustenance that comes from acknowledging each and every person as a child of God. Until we do, the religious right will go on attracting the poor and the oppressed and the depressed. Maybe we're too comfortable with the way things are.

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Jesus, the expert on Christianity, warned his followers that people would enter the church for purposes that had nothing to do with extending his ministry. He said that they would appear as sheep but were like ravenous wolves. The people and groups mentioned in this listing are among those Jesus warned about.

These people/groups are not about extending grace, mercy & peace to all of the world. These people/groups do not concern themselves with the widow, the orphan, the sick, the imprisoned and the outcast. These people/groups are not motivated by a love for people and a desire to see all people freed from the chains that bind them. What they are about is power, political influence and money.

These modern day Pharisees are about conforming people to a list of do's and don't that suit their personal bias. Jesus was harsh with the Pharisees because they were all about burdening people with a formulary of conduct rather than reaching out to their real needs. He called them 'whitewashed tombstones'-- people who desired to publicly appear religious and pious, but inside were greedy, hard-hearted and bound to their own corruption.

Christ-followers are not about binding people up with lists of do's and don'ts. They are not about playing in the political cesspool and do not seek to establish a theocracy.

What Christ-followers are about is very simple: loving God and all people as you love yourself. If you do that you will live peacefully, extend mercy and grace to others and strive to see all people free. The clowns of the christian media & political influence circus are about everything but that.

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Countless Christian organizations have incomprehensible amounts of money. Do they run soup kithchens, shelters, hospitals or anything to improve the human condition? Not that I know of. They continue to amass fortunes. Make sizable donations to politicians and no questions asked. Not even by the IRS. It's time to take a look at these "non-profit" organizations. Thanks, ANNA

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Ever since I was quite young, I would hear at our church how the world could come to an end at any moment - be ready for the coming. Hallalujah! Jack Van Impe and his Queen make that declaration every few minutes during his comedy routine. Praise the Lord!

There have been established Churches here for some time but now they've become as numerous as convenience stores with very minimum - no taxes. They all have the "Real Deal"! "What's in your wallet"? Every few years, the Zealots feel it neccessary to "Paraphrase" the Bible.

If people wish to follow any of these Religious Sects, fine, but can't Church and State be kept separate as was originally intended. Politics is corrupt enough without "Onward Christian Soldier, Marching as to War" and "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" rhetoric.

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a lot of exurbs and suburbs including VA Beach don't always stay Republican. Even as the Religious Right's favorite Jerry KILgore tried unsuccessfully last year to pull another "Kansas", the voters made it clear that they've had enough. I'm not saying that VA will turn blue in 2008 as a result of Kaine's victory but the failures of the Religious Right are home to roost.

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There IS a reason that Jesus Christ, throughout His entire life, ran just as far away from politics as was humanly (and sometimes inhumanly) possible, despite all sorts of traps and tricks people laid out for Him to fall into politics, and that reason is simple.

Because real Christians are to follow His life example, to the Cross if necessary. There is no doubt whatsoever that Jesus could, and would have, done politics better than anyone, but POLITICS IS NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN, A PLACE FOR REAL CHRISTIANS.

Indeed, entering politics BEYOND the simple crying out of the Truth, loud and long, is the first step toward Christianism, a complete perversion of real Christianity.

Each of the misled lost people in this article, as the majority of the misled lost people in their organizations, have become full-fledged Christianists. In Jesus Christ's time He called them Pharisees, hypocrites, "professionally" "religious" Jews that had all the knowledge of the Law and NONE OF THE SUBSTANCE, living only for the power and riches such a life brought them.

Christianists are "professional" Christians; their very livelihood depends on them remaining Christianists; if they were true followers of Christ, they'd GIVE EVERYTHING AWAY and STOP ASKING FOR ANYTHING OF ANYBODY, EVER.

They'd be horrified at the government of Israel's fascist policies, and not aiding and abetting them; they'd be doing everything they could TO PREVENT THE SECOND COMING FROM EVER HAVING TO HAPPEN; not rejoicing in a Rapture where billions will be left behind to endure God's wrath.

They'd be RUNNING from governing and political power and riches as Jesus did; not CHASING THEM.

No, these professional Christianists were EXACTLY the ones God was speaking to when He said, at the last judgment, when they claimed to cast out demons in His name and bring millions of souls to Christ, He would say "Depart from me ye Workers of Iniquity; I NEVER KNEW YE."

So please, always judge Christianity by the life and example and teaching of Jesus Christ and no one else; not one human being who ever lived is worthy of judging Christianity by.

On the contrary, a handful of other people throughout history (Ghandi comes to mind) were closer to Jesus Christ than any Pope, priest, minister, parson, or pastor that ever lived. And precisely because he was not a Christian, NEVER FELL VICTIM TO THE TRAP OF CHRISTIANISM and perhaps gave us an inkling of how Jesus Christ Himself would govern, one day WHEN IT IS TIME and all that could possibly come to God willingly will have done so.

Thanks for reading.

ChristiansAgainstBush.net

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This list is great and should also add the Republican Party, West baptist Church in KS to the list also. This list should be made to all and serve as a wanted list for brining down those who oppose, freedom and democracy. I plan to put this list on my web blog and email this to all my friends and family.

People in America and the Blue state liberal america should be aware of those who want to bring american into a Christain Taliban like country.

The Biggest fear is that these people are a clear and present danger to America, it's freedom, democracy, it's US Constitution and the bill of rights. These groups are far worse of a terror threat than any other in the world and these groups listed here should be treated like terror groups and should be watched like terror groups.

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Christ stayed away from politics because it is not important to Christians. TCHristianity killed off the Roman Empire. It seems obvious to me that anyone who considers themselves to be a biblical, fundamentalist, Christian would not be involved in politics. It is a contradition in terms. All of these touch-stone issues, Gay rights, Abortion, and Scientific thought in general are things unmentioned in the New Testament.
I say we use the anger of these people against them. Force them to go on record over and over again about how they feel about Presbiterians, Catholics and Jews. I leave out Muslims and Budists because I am not sure if that would be a political plus or minus.
Force them to go on the record in blunter turms about having the Government force behaviors. Women who want an Abortion will be forced to due what and how? Gay people will have what done to them?
Lets also hit them with the "liberal" Christ. What would Jesus do about hunger, Wealth distribution and Militarism?

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The Christian right made a big deal about using their tax money to fund abortions, but we fund the activities of churches (good and bad) through our tax system. Local churches don't pay for government-supplied services. We pay for them. If they want to go into business, they're granted immunity from the tax system, giving them an advantage over other businesses.

We have all kinds of churches pulling the tax-free scam. Christian, Jewish, "fringe" and cult, etc. Ask L. Ron Hubbard Jr. (the son of the founder of Scientology) about the benefits of the tax system for even the craziest of religions.

Churches in the Middle Ages made themselves rich by avoiding taxation and were corrupted in the process. We should do them a favor and remove most of this exemption. We can reduce their power and gain some much needed tax revenue in the process. We can also make them more honest.

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I am dazzled by your wit and logic. Can you tell us how you breathe with your head so far up your butt?

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In Mathew 7:20-23, Jesus is quoted as saying that not all those who claim to act in his name are really his people. He predicted that many of these false followers of Christ would claim (in the afterlife, one presumes) to have done "great works" for Christ, to which Jesus would reply to THEM, "Depart from me, you doers of iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU!" (As a Christian, I find these words the most chilling in the whole Bible.)

The gospel also tells us that Jesus was "tempted" to assume political power. It is said that "Satan" (a word meaning "the acuser", among other things) took Jesus to a mountaintop and offered him all the power and riches of the "whole world" if Jesus would worship Satan. Jesus refused. His refusal led inexorably to the cross.

C.S. Lewis wisely observed that only TWO kinds of power are available to us in this four-dimensional world: political power & SPIRITUAL POWER. Great leaders can sometimes use spiritual power to effect political ends (Ghandi and MLK come to mind), but is is IMPOSSIBLE to reach spiritual goals by mere political power, i.e., coercion!

The scary "Christianists" in this article need to learn that!

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What a waste. Religion is just a cloak for power. It provides a way for one group of people to justify their dominance and oppression of another group. In the name of love--love of their god, love of themselves, and laughably love of some people for others--millions of people kill and maim millions of others. Voltaire knew this when he warned that those who can be made to believe absurdities can be made to commit atrocities. In this way all religions share, if not a common god, then a common goal.

Those who believe that liberalism, free thought, and democracy can coexist with organized religion are fooling themselves. Religion struggles to free itself from the box in which liberal politics attempts to quarantine it. It must escape and poison the body politic, or it will die. The rise of the religious right in our time is but another event in a long-term history of religion chafing at the bonds that civil society imposes on it. The struggle will continue until religions end, if they ever do, or they triumph and repress independent thought to the point that universal ignorance is permanently restored and factual knowledge becomes the property of a privileged few.

So, all you well-intentioned compromisers out there, know who and what you are dealing with before you extend a hand in friendship and respect. In the end, the religious wingnuts that many of us so despise and try to isolate really do belong in the mainstream of organized religion. They are the vanguard of the prophets of doom, the doom that awaits all who will not surrender their ability to see and think for themselves to an authority that lies beyond their control. Laugh at them only nervously.

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The Institute for Religion and Democracy is insidious in a different way than these hard-core Religious Right groups. Their agenda is to push mainline churches in a more conservative direction.

For progressive religious thought, check out this handy list of books.

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Most, if not all, of these guys are not only chronologically but socially and morally ossified dinosaurs. The sooner their era is put to the grave the better. If this is what what the gift of longevity yields, I'd prefer to check out like Jesus at a sooner age. What a shame that the name of God should be associated with these morons.

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These are people who Jesus said would lead the flock astray. It is prophesy, except for the fact that this flock was already astray. Descendants of genocidal cowboys and slave holders, Christians from the left have to realize that we cannot go back to the status quo, back to policies that left domestic America ride freely over still waters. Our foreign policy has allowed us to enjoy the fruits of cheap foreign labor, cheap foreign oil, cheap foreign textiles while we throw half of our dinners in the garbage can. People die of malnutrition and dehydration every day in the name of a Blessed America.

A sacrifice of ill-gotten gains is tainted
and the gifts of the wicked win no approval
The Most High has no pleasure in the offerings of the godless
nor do countless sacrifices win His forgiveness
To offer a sacrifice from the possessions of the poor
is like killing a son before his father's eyes.
Bread is life to the destitute,
and to deprive them of it is murder.
To rob your neighbor of his livelihood is to murder him,
and he who defrauds a worker of his wages sheds blood.
Ecc 34 18-22

We competed against the Soviet empire with one of our own for decades. The US won, because we set up dictatorships who murdered any dissenters, including as Reagan put it, the 'soft targets'. In addition to becoming pawns of the cold war, the people of these countries began producing cheap goods and resources for US corporations. This is not 'loving thy neighbor' let alone 'loving thine enemy'. While we are a nation of many faiths and -isms, Christians MUST take a stand against these imperial right wingers who only lust for more power. Greed is the diety that this nation worships. Followers of Christ, and everyone else, should know that these people are wicked.

The question is not who you believe in, but what you believe. Do you believe these organizations reflect moral values? Is condemnation and self righteousness a reflection of morality? Some of these organizations helped steal Ohio for George Bush in 2004. They are connected to Diebold, ISS, and all of the bad guys. Does it really take the slandering of an entire faith to question their conduct? Remember, for every right wing nut job, there is a Christian in Honduras sewing buttons on the Gap back-to-school line. For every minister who promotes blind nationalism and hangs yellow ribbons on the cross, there are catholics in Guatemala making your underpants. You cannot be part of a movement that promotes diversity and multiculturalism if you alienate a large population of the world, many of whom our tax and consumer dollars have oppressed for generations.

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I guess I've heard the accusations against fundamentalists too many times. Yes, they are hypocrites. Yes, they are nut cases. Yes, they are political maniacs.

So what. They are so superficial as to be easily discredited with little intellectual effort. As many suckers as they attract, just as many opponents are created by their crackpot ideas.

I say give them only as much publicity as is required to reveal what they do. What they spout and preach has never worked. It's like the dog that barks at the mailman. So long as the mailman leaves, the dog thinks what he's doing is working.

That's why the primary argument of the fundamentalists is a tally of numbers. So all they do is try to sign up more members. As if one could count who's religious.

Maybe if journalists of the American way stopped tooting the radical right's horn for them, we'd see that they'd stop barking so loudly. Ignore them.

I do admit that the pathetic religious illiteracy of Americans makes for a sucker born every minute. But stop fighting the circus. It's just for killing time.

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It is clear from some of the right-wing bloggers here that they believe that a totalitaristic, theocratic ruling system based on Christianity is not as dangerous as any other religion based dictatorship that history has produced.

Dictatorships that prohibit religious freedoms, even to be an atheist, are equally undesirable. We don't even need to look too far back in history to see the faults in totalitaristic dictatorships, they go back as far as history is known, that wherever religious governments were in power, or governments prohibited religion, the citizens were not free to personal happiness and satisfaction. Often in religious governments the people were totally subjugated and all of their achievements and their very lives were under the ownership of the rulers. One of my favorite totalitarian states to point out, which many may deem irrelevant here and now were the Aztecs.
Basically they were slaves. They could not criticize, they could not petition, they could not have differing points of view from the state's rigid religious dogma.
Of course, the more current examples are the countries ruled by the Ayatollahs and or the bin Ladens, so I think the
analogy made to the religious fundamentalists in this country are appropriate, and something to avoid with everything we have

The writer of this article made one mistake in my opinion. There should be an 11th added to the money grubbing, pseudo Christians, fascists, bigots. The organization is located in our White House and is fronted by a wanna-be ayattollah/dictator who just turned 60 and who is supported by the top 10.

Interesting that one of the posts mentioned that religion should not be judged by reason and rationalism. Reason and rationalism is what we arrived to after Paganism and
unrealistic superstition, and these zombie fundamentalists want all of us to go back to that!??

THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT IT IS OR IS NOT CLEARLY DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION, IS WHAT ALLOWED THIS COUNTRY TO NURTURE HAPPY AND SUCCESSFUL CITIZENS.

THOSE OF YOU OUT THERE WHO CANNOT SEE THE INSIDIOUS DANGER OF ALLOWING THE FALWELLS AND ROBERTSONS, TO DICTATE OUR COUNTRY'S FUTURE POLICES NEED TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS

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is not to spread the word of Christ. It is to aquire wealth and power. The followers of these "people" apparently have some un-met personal need for security, and blindly follow these pied piper leaders, giving a large portion of their personal assets to the group thinking they are supporting something that is "good." It's truly a pity that they aren't capable of seeing the only thing they are doing is enriching someone whose sole purpose is to further control their lives while amassing great personal wealth and power. I guess the reason that the members of these congregations are called its "flock," is because they are just like sheep that aimlessly follow one leader, regardless of where that leader takes them, while at the same time, being fleeced of their personal wealth by that very leader.

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Hmmmm with all these professed Christians of all angles (Right, Left, etc.) making so much noise about faith and Christian values, tell me, why is it that more and more of us, on a daily basis, are getting meaner and meaner toward each other?

You see, the good Lord made us quite powerful. It is us, not Him who will decide our fate and longevity on Earth. If we want to annihilate each other, as we regularly try to do, then have at it. God will not interfere.

Similarly, if in moments of compassion and concern we turn to each other in a caring and giving manner, then so be it, and God will sigh in relief and hope. In this latter case, the most beautiful outcome is that if we persist in our care for each other, things for all of us get better. Now that is God's reward, that he built into our powerful independence from the get go. In this case He just smiles and bursts in the most joyous songs.

Right now, however, God weeps more than he sings. So how about it, can we become, again, really caring, loving humans and in so doing dry God's tears?

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Rod Parsley. From my friend Sarah Posner, "With God on his Side"

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If these 'Organizations' disapprove so strongly in no seperation between Church and State how come they're still 'tax-exempt?' How come they can take in millions of dollars to support their efforts and then when April 15 comes around they're exempt because they are 'religious organizations?' Doesn't that negate the Democratic Maxim of 'You play, you pay?' If you REALLY want to tone some of these 'Defenders of Morals and Righteousness' down, sic the IRS on them. Otherwise, it's the same old song and dance: One set of Rules for US...another set of Rules for the Rest of you. Yada,yada,yada!

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Does anyone know any RR and/or Right wing message boards or other poster forums and can post links? Not as in the super crazy screamers, but the thoughtful, intelligent ones where people actually consider ideas? IE I am looking for the Right wing's version of Alternet.

I just checked the first three sites listed here, but none have message boards that I could find. (figures! They give you the truth, they don't want to hear yours.)

I for one am getting tired of either preaching to the choir and/or arguing with the RR trolls.

Anyone else with me?

**I DO NOT ADVOCATE GOING ON THEIR BOARDS AND INSULTING THEM**that is pointless and only proves to them that liberals are godless heathens--like that's a bad thing. :-)

Just advocating presenting the careful, reasoned opposing ideas like a few of the conservative posters do here on occasion. I personally love it when they give me something I hadn't considered, and I have to research carefully to find out the real story. It's good karma. And they're not going to hear it on Fox News Network.

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It's very amusing to see religious liberals tut-tutting the ideas of religious conservatives, who are their close intellectual cousins. Actually, both groups represent the collective psychosis that is religion.

As long as large numbers of people reject logic and embrace fairy-tales regarding how our universe operates, no amount of hand-wringing over "extremists" will do any good -- and humanity will stay on the path to self-destruction.

So-called religious moderates are just the enablers of the Bible-thumpers and ayatollahs. A pox on all your houses.

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I am sick and tired of right-wing Christians taking advantage of the freedom this country has to offer by spreading their message around to others.

HOW DARE THEM!

Do they think the Constitution guarantees them freedom of religion or something?

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When I read Jan Frel's latest anti-religious post, and the subsequent firestorm of replies, I noticed a distinct lack of troll responses. When this article sheds light on the dominionist movement and its objectives, the trolls are back out in force. Could it be that, when religious and non-religious progressives get into unproductive flame wars, we do the trolls' work for them?
I'm an atheist and a progressive. I've found no truth, or comfort in religion. That is, however, a personal observation.
If you are a religious progressive who can respect my point of view, then you are not an enemy. I can agree to disagree if you can.
What we need to do as progressives is not to fight with each other over things we will never change each other's minds on. What our goal should be is to expose the evil and the threat to all of our liberties that dominionism represents.Bravo to Alternet for this article. Hope to see more like it.

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I sent this article out to all the religious groups I found out appropriate. The religious right victimized me, allowed me into a marriage that was not good for me, and a motherhood that has proved to be a disaster. It's time for revenge. Boudicia lives!
I especially am dancing for FOF with my spear. It is time to cut off heads and serve them up on platters.

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You can always tell a posting that is totally nonsense and from one of the "programmed" posters around by the use of divisive, mass labeling of people.
Rather than attempting to having dialogue and discussion, they prefer. and are told to, label rather think. That is SO divise and is hurting this nation so much. Discussion and dialogue is what is needed.

Two things that are important (I think)
As an American, I come from a great nation of people.
As an American, I am ashamed, disgusted, repulsed, by the actions of the U.S. Federal government, particularly the Executive and Legislative branches. They are controled by Corporate dollars and special interest groups.
This is in the same way that I do not think that Australian PM John Howard's total support and promotion of U.S. President's Bush's occupation of Iraq and claim that Bush (and himself) had no knowledge whatsoever of the torture going on in Abu Ghraib is reflective of the Austrailian people. Whatever the selfish motives that the Austrailian government has to be a close second to Tony Blair as the only two Bush supporters from governments in the world, is a reflection of the citizens of Australia.

The Administration of the U.S. has virtually no political ideology, the behaviors are about as anti-conservative in nature as they can be). You know, destruction of states rights, reckless, uncontroled spending, enormous budget and trade deficits. The lack of enforcement of federal laws. Creating a whole new Trillion dollar branch of the government. The lack of loyalty to the Constitution. The illegal and out of control spying and servailance of U.S. citizens, done with virtually no warrants or knowledge from the Justice Department.
Massive increase of the size and scope of the Federal government.
The giving out of BIDLESS government contracts. Then the announcement of further contracts will be given to ONLY those who support President Bush's policies.
The major outsourcing of the U.S. military to organizations like Blackwater, which make it impossible to examine budgets, behaviors or control by anyone other than the Administration.
The reckless involvment in a soverign government's affairs. so much that the U.S. military is sent, to occupy the nation. This being done, NOT for defense purposes, as a conservative would never, ever get involved with military force in other nations, unless threatened.
The reason, if anyone really remembers, was to find and remove the weapons of mass destruction that supposedly put the U.S. at risk.

So, PLEASE understand that there are no liberals or conservative philosophies involved with this. Keep the slurs and the labels out.

Follow the money, research, be open, dialogue and understand that we have only ONE party in the U.S., the "GREEN PARTY", green as in dollars.

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They are marching us proudly backwards to the future. There's a hilarious satire of this out: "The Department of Homeland Decency: Decency Rules and Regulations Manual." It details how they want us to live. Check it out at www.homelanddecency.com.

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It is no secret that Christians would like to see a higher degree of morality, though the Christians I know realize that it cannot be legislated. What I don't get is the irrational fear of Chritian leaders in the context of the world we live in. In every measure imaginable religion is barely holding its own in the west. Europe has virually no church goers and the clergy are totally marginalized (the Pope talks, does anyone listen?) And here there are various popular trends that fill huge churches and allow people to say they are Christians but no strength of conviction.
Now, you have a perception of the desires of the Christian right, though I wouldnt classify it the way you do, but list for me the tangible gains they have made in legislating and even impacting our culture.

Can't pray in school
Can't speak of religion at work
Can't display religious symbols many places
Systematic elimination of religion from history
Private clubs very limited if they are religious in nature
Christianity especially is fair game to ridicule, no risk of hate crimes or any other protections exist

The list goes on and on.

I just don't see the problem. YOU ARE WINNING and paranoid as hell that you will lose. You will likely point to gay marriage, but that is not easily comparable. Not being able to pray in school for example impacts everone. And it was declared by judiciary, not by referendum. Gay marriage impacts gays who want to marry. If you are a heterosexual who is married, you may be passionate about the right for gays to marry, but at days end, you are not personally impacted. AND, gay marriage has been limited by THE PEOPLE voting. What is wrong with popular will?

I guess if you need something to fear, fine, but these guys are no threat to you.

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Interesting numbers. Do they include government grants?

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I know this is all very serious, but I can't help it, this is too funny not to comment on:

Sheldon Quote: “A dangerous Marxist/Leftist/Homo­sex­ual/Is­lamic coalition has formed – and we’d better be willing to fight it with everything in our power...." (“The War on Christianity,” column, TVC Web site, Dec. 13, 2005)

I think there is a whole comedy sketch here. Picture the meetings of this supposed coalition! Oh my. So much good material.

Quick, someone -- hire a touchy-feely "team-building" consultant for this coalition!

PS I initially wondered why the Jews were not in this coalition, but I think "Marxist" does double duty as a codeword.

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Tax the _______(you could probably run out of ink in your pen with all your profound and unbiased selections)

You and your Marxist philosophy are redolent with class warfare claptrap that is almost Huey Long-ish in its demagoguery...

would have fit right in with like-minded Robespierre.....

oh and by the way your despising of the Church is typical and predictable...you should be happy soon as your feeble attempts at lashing out at the Church will be realized soon enough...

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Especially when they're scared. Fear is a really, really bad adviser. But people just want to hear how everything that goes "wrong" is somebody else's fault. Especially if for those somebodies people and groups van be pinpointed where they have a certain bias against already. For whom they are (secretly) afraid, secretly admire even, of simply do not understand.
People love to be led by ignorance. Not-knowing in itself is not a crime. Having yourself being led by ignorance is. That leads to prejudice and judgements, intolerance and hatred.

When people are afraid they want a so called "strong" (wo)man telling them where they should focus their anger on. And do so willingly. Because it's always it's never their own fault, but always "the other's" (talking about immaturity...).
These "power brokers" are the most despicable, cowardly monstrous lowlifes around. And did you read the quotes, here and elsewhere? They have the arrogance to know what Jesus would have done, what their god would have done. Thus they perform the biggest blasphemy of all: they compare themselves to their god-almighty....(non capital intended)

Basically, people are so afraid of LIFE itself!
Life means change. Life IS change!
But desperately trying to hold on to some kind of 'status quo' which does not really exist, because everything is changing.
Imagine how much energy and effort it takes to stop the tides or the wind...That is what they put in to stop the flow of life.
These so called self-proclaimed "pro-life" doorknobs, don't dare to live life itself. Give themselves over to the flow of life.
Imagine they encounter something out of the unknown...the horror. Imagine they'd have to get out of their fortress and wander around in "the wilderness".
Imagine they'd have to open their minds, hearts and souls for something different than their rigid, very very narrow minded and truly scary belief system...the terror.

Look at life. Look at life literally. Look at how your own body functions in all its details (whether you belief in evolution or - ignorantly - refuse to).
Life is a wonder. The biggest wonder of all. And all you do is rejecting the wonder. The wonder that - if you want to call it that way - your god has given you. What have you done with it?

What? Protect the innocent children?
From whom?!
All I see is they need to be protected from you!
From various trainings I have come to learn that children are mostly formed in their youngest years. And the more rigid and hateful and even violent (didn't that one guy promote corporal punishment to children?!), and the less attention for the true needs of the child, loving, touching (and I'm not talking sexual, you perverts), the more scarred the child will be, later, and through his life.
You're decisions how to raise a child don't even need to be conscious. The child will know.


Those 'power brokers', that feed on the fear of people like vampires, that feed then more fear and hatred and ignorance (what they tell is pure lies), abusing their position, what can be done about them? If millions of people keep to be willing to be gullible and ignorant (I repeat that word again)? With their ADDICTION to living in fear. Their addiction to live in blaming others for what they should look at themselves at?
It's like 'fulminaters' like Ann Coulter are still able to spread their bile and puke, cause people are still reading it.

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"Invincible ignorance”

Someone made the point that trying to reason with the rabid religious right is an exercise in futility because they suffer from “invincible ignorance.” No matter the evidence they see or hear, they will ignore and deny all facts that contradict their "faith based" intolerances and prejudices. Some of their "best and brightest" can read and write, but what they can’t and won’t do is think, because thinking threatens their self-esteem.

The willfully ignorant cling to their denial of reality as desperately as someone adrift in the ocean clings to an overturned lifeboat. All of their self-serving justifications and hypocrisies are too fragile to risk self-examination. At some level of consciousness they instinctively recognize the danger and recoil from the truth like a flame . . . and then they attack the messenger.

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that the Christian extemist/fanatics/whatever in this country, and the Isalmic extemist/fanatics/whatever overseas--that they could be transported to some uninhabited small island somewhere where they could be left to duke it out together and exterminate each other while each group is screaming "god is on MY side!"

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were as bad/dangerous as stated/implied EACH OF US is still responsable to know what the Bible teaches. Some one else's mistakes or misuses of the Bible, real OR alleged, should inspire us to find out what the book itself says.

I wonder: Are the author and posters looking for the truth or using those on the list to justify wanting to keep God from influincing their lives, to make it OK in their heads to live any old way they want? Do we really believe that 'my opinion' is the ultimate truth? Or are you open minded enough to do the research on just how authentic the Bible and NT Chistianity really is? NT Christianity was started by Jesus. His followers carried it forward. These followers were in a position to KNOW if Jesus was dead or really resurectd. If He were still dead, they gave their lives for a teaching THEY KNEW WAS FALSE!!! The historical (like the Catholic church) stuff that happened later in His Name that was not from God is no excuse for us...

Who was it that founded this Nation? Mostly Christians! Only about a dozen of the (two hundred or so?) founders were diests or unbelievers.

On a search site I enterd 'Constitution'. The 1st Ammendment reads in part: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." the rest dealing with free speech & press. No seperation of Church and state in there at all, ecept that the Gov. is to be hands off. This was to keep Gov out of religion not religion out of Gov. Posting the 10 Commandments, crosses at war memorials or public prayer do not constitute gov. establishing a religion. The relegion had already been established, most of the Founders believed in it and this amendment was to protect it and any other that citizans choose to follow.

What we really have is some groups want to remove the Christion influence and substitute the religion of secularizm. I might not agree with how Ann Coulter says some things but by and large her book 'Godless...' hits the nail on the head. Her detractors mostly refute her incendiary style but are kinda stuck when it comes to her over all view.

Check out all the Bible refrences the Founders quoted, the prayers they MADE IN PUBLIC and so on...The ACLU would have gone crazy!!!

If it were not for the Bible based Christian influence on our countries origins you would probably not have the right to disagree. Check out the King and Church of England at the time. Would you rather have that as the law of the land?

Most of the negitive against those on the list show fear. The fear of the truth by their detractors who justify free for all sex, to abort the results, homo sex perversion and other destructive behaviours legitimized while ignoring the resulting death toll from STDs, homosexual lifestyles and millions of dead un-born children.

Only a fool says in his heart there is no God!

SamFox

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Where's Rev. Moon and his Washington Times
He should be on this list. His finanicial Influence over the Bush family is historical. Pappy Bush (41) is paid millions to do speeches for this convicted felon. How can a convicted felon be allowed to even own any kind of large media outlet...Newspapers...Radio Stations....If only there were a hell for these....these....cretins to fry for eternity...

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I'm surprised you fit all tose jackasses on one page, You couldn't get them all into any room at the same time. The list
does serve to point out one important trait they all must have
to keep up their minisries. An unmitigated gall surpassed only by an awe-enspiring arrogance. I am secure in the fact that I don't have to worry about their invisible man punishing me any more than more than I worry about how mad a democrat is though. If god does exist and he does punish nonbelievers,
I'll have all ten of those list members ahead of me in line because belief isn't what they are selling,they are selling themselves, which is what all religious leaders do.

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As you all may be aware, there has been an influx of Morlocks to our site, of late.

With every new Alternet Blog discussion, watch out for the following Neo-Con WingNut Infiltrators:

knocko
rightwing1
NC3
RWcowboy
Phenix
Supercrisp
zvirgil2
resistance6
conservasaurus
butthead

PLEASE refrain from responding to their agenda-driven, NeoCon Drivel in order to prevent them from high-jacking the threads.

IGNORING THESE ACEREBRAL IDIOTS ALLOWS US TO CARRY ON WITH OUR REASONED DISCUSSIONS.

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How about the entire US gov't? These are merely private agencies. Our real problem is those who pass (and break) laws. Our problem is in Washington where they ignore the Constitution. They ignore Free Speech by caging peaceful protestors and pressure book outlets like Amazon to drop the book "America Deceived" by E.A. Blayre III. They run rampant over the 4th Amendment by illegally wire-tapping every phone. They violate the enitre Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars. These groups are a distraction. And their funds are tiny compared to the real criminals in charge.
Support indy medai like Alter,
Last link (before Google Books bends to Gov't pressure):
http://www.iuniverse.com/
bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0

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I've found no one really knows what seperation of church and state really entails.
It means no tax exempt status for all religious organisations, including schools and hospitals. And it means ending the charitable contributions income tax deduction to all religious societies. Not that this would starve these parasitic charlatains for funds, but it sure would cut them down to size.
This is easy for me to say, because I have no use for religion in any way, shape or form. And, it ain't going to happen. I know of no politician who hasn't got his tongue up the arse of some pastor, priest, or rabbi!

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It's so sad that these far right religious crazies invoke the name of God and Jesus Christ in their poisonous rhetorical spewing. They know they support a political party that can't win an election without corrupt politicians willing to sell their soul for power but the religious right will one day have to face the music for what they have done. Glory, Glory!

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As a Christian I have long been concerned with the far right and their total disregard for Scripture and the teachings of Jesus. Please don't think that all Christians think it's ok to oppress hirelings in their wages and let the hungry starve and the thirsty do without water. I am so embarrassed about these people I could cry

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Same old lefty loon Do As I Say crapola.

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