AlterNet / By Sara K. Gould
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 316

Why Are Men Still Joking About Rape?

It is nearly inconceivable, and certainly inexcusable, that TV shows like F/X's "Rescue Me" can still suggest that women 'enjoy' rape.
June 30, 2006  |  
 
 
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If there was ever any question about why women's voices should be mandatory at the top levels of decision making in any field, last week's episode of the F/X drama "Rescue Me" provides an answer that is as unambiguous as it is revolutionary.

In an episode that aired early last week, the show's main character, Tommy Gavin (played by series co-creator Denis Leary), rewards his estranged wife's perceived insubordination (that is, talking back) with what, in the eyes of these writers and producers, is understood to be a reasonable male response to acts of female insubordination: He rapes her.

And, they would have you believe, she enjoyed it.

That we should still be debating, at this place in history, the idea that women either deserve or enjoy being physically attacked and sexually subjugated beggars the imagination. But it is indeed where we are, as events like this -- and others, such as the decision of the dean of students at the University of Nairobi to open a recent talk with a joke about rape -- make clear.

So let us be clear in return: Rape is not a joke, nor is it mere fodder for the entertainment media's use. Rape is, in every case, a violation of law, international and domestic; the forceful sexual assault of other human beings without their consent carries criminal penalties because we as a society believe that the right to bodily integrity is more than just a catch phrase. Moreover, as our decades of work on behalf of women have taught us us, women do not, by any measure, "enjoy" being sexually assaulted. Sexual assault crimes are motivated by the need to control, humiliate and harm -- and those are precisely the effects these crimes visit upon their victims when they are enacted.

According to current estimates, a woman or girl is sexually assaulted every two minutes in this country. One in three girls will be abused before reaching age 18. Yet 80 percent of all rapes are never reported to the police. The incontrovertible fact is that women already feel disempowered to tell their truths around sexual violence, and by creating a fictional world in which Tommy Gavin can leave the scene of his crime with a grin on his face and without accountability required of him by his community of firefighters, the creators of Rescue Me have, in their own way, done violence to women once again.

If we are shocked by the inability of the show's creators to produce anything approaching a realistic view of the effect of rape on women and communities, it might help to remember that of the eleven executives in charge of production (from writers to directors to producers) listed on the show's website, just one -- one -- is a woman. And in the executive suites at the networks -- where the real decisions get made about what makes it onto the air and what doesn't -- a similar lack of female perspective is often at play.

Depictions of women like the one FX saw fit to air should certainly anger us, but they should also remind us of why it is so important that women's voices, opinions and knowledge not be excluded from the playing field. Because when they are, as is clearly the case here, it becomes all too easy to perpetuate myths about the female experience that have little to do with the realities of women's lives.
Sara K. Gould is the president and CEO of the Ms. Foundation for Women.
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Damn right
[Report this comment]
Posted by: popsicle67 on Jun 30, 2006 12:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A really close friend was attacked last winter on a date set up through a dating site. She still cannot go to the store where it happened after dark. She got lucky in that she got out of the car before she was penetrated so she didn't have the whole AIDS thing to worry about but she was agressively fondled
and held against her will for a short(thankfully) period. Now
as she still is trying to deal with the situation made harder by the fact that the cops haven't found the guy, her mom asks when is she going to just get over it. I didn't think I heard right at first because if ever there was a feminist it is this woman. I heard her right though and I have to ask myself,
how can a society stop something that it doesn't want to hear about. What is the grieving period when you "Almost" get raped.

» RE: Damn right Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Damn right Posted by: lisebrouillette
» DON'T ADD TO THE PROBLEM !! Posted by: maribelle
» DON'T MAKE THE PROBLEM WORSE! Posted by: maribelle

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very simple
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rsaxto on Jun 30, 2006 4:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact here is very simple: men who joke about rape are assholes and/or criminals.

» Who's the Actor? Posted by: sirossisofliver
» RE: very simple Posted by: pomes
» RE: very simple Posted by: Trytobeaware
» RE: very simple Posted by: Orwells_nightmare

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Only a Few
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Posted by: ChristopherLL on Jun 30, 2006 5:18 AM   
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Rape is about power and control and not sex. This country has become very much about power and control and has reduced sex to object rather than integrated with relationships. In my view this is the result of both men and women. Some how along the way males and females have become more adversarial and competetive rather than understanding and cooperative. Also there are few men who consider the act anything but repulsive and barbaric but it seems at times women focus all their resentment, anger and rejection of men on these singular acts. Men who commit rape are cowards and criminals, don't treat them as if they are anything else. Men who joke about the issue are merely weak and insecure. Look to those men who are not, they are all around.

» RE: Only a Few Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: AlphaHusky
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: kc4choice
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: Riverside
» Sick! Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: glorybe

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I have never ever heard a man joke about female rape. But about male rape? Yes, all the time
[Report this comment]
Posted by: sheeplepeeple on Jun 30, 2006 5:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There may be more male on male rapes than male on female rapes. In fact, I sat next to a retarded man on the bus a couple of weeks ago who told me he had been raped.

But I have never heard a man joke about a woman being raped. But the mainstream media is full of jokes, innuendoes, and threats about male prison rape. There is your story. Why is it that the mass media institutions, owned by the biggest and most powerful entities in America, constantly approve and condone jokes about male rape? Maybe because that is an effective way to control men?

But this article here is bogus. Your stats are bogus (one in three women abused before 18? Yeah, right!).
This article is the perfect example of extremist interest-group-oriented liberalism. This sort of fake liberalism is the worst possible thing about liberalism in America today. The article uses made-up bogus stats from some nonpartisan feminist ideologue foundation (Ms. Foundation for Women), which is accountable to no one, and cooks up these wild eyed bogus stories so that they can use these articles to apply for more grants and donations. This is what makes American liberalism useless to the vast majority of Americans. No wonder they vote for Bush and the GOP. THe Democrats are associated with this sort of interest-group, single-issue, gender-spoils liberalism that offers very little to the average American. This article represents the shreds of American liberalism.

» Stats are irrelevant Posted by: Joshua Holland
» More rapes of men within the US Posted by: DavidByron
» Actually it is typical Posted by: eastcoker
» hmmm? Posted by: kc4choice
» Well said Posted by: DavidByron

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I'm not pro-rape or anything...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: joaniede on Jun 30, 2006 5:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but I didn't see it that way. I saw a confused, hurt husband deal with his pain in an impulsive manner. They were married, after all. And they both ended up enjoying it, to their surprise. I didn't see it as advocating rape in retaliation for her speaking out. Besides, Tommy is always doing stupid, impulsive, crazy things. That's who he is. He gets in fights, he riskily jumps out of windows saving people, he almost runs people over in his truck; he does crazy things all the time. I don't think the show is advocating all of those crazy things. Give Rescue Me a break!

» Dude...? Posted by: jem
» RE: rape is rape is rape Posted by: LRayn
» So, If I'm Married... Posted by: Steven Wanzell

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sheeplepeeples blind man
[Report this comment]
Posted by: robmikejas on Jun 30, 2006 6:08 AM   
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The real "liberal" here is sheeplepeeples. Allowing rape to exist and be condoned by people such as you, only advances the cause of violence in this world. Your attitude is so off base it is almost silly. I suggest you crawl back under the rock from which you slithered.

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Hey sheeplepeeple , learn what you're talking about
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Jun 30, 2006 6:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
before you shoot your mouth off. That one of three may be low. From the women I've spoken with - and the trust that implies is a considerable compliment - I'd put it at more like three out of five or MORE. Most of those are pre-puberty, too, the first time, anyway.

Why do you have such a hard time believing it?

It is a crime of violence, not sex. Domination? I don't know - it isn't something I understand at all. I've heard and read from several books and shrinks that suposedly "Every male has rape fantasies - it's perfectly normal"". Well then I'm not - I can't imagine anything resembling sex with a woman who is less than enthusiastic about it. Rape is - nauseating, angering - I can't find a single word for it.

The one character I stopped before he quite could, however, chose to resist sticking around and had to be carried to the ambulance before he could be arrested. I was a witness, and turned my "citizen's arrest" prisoner to S.O. willingly.

I had never met the girl before.

Women DON'T enjoy rape. A LOT of women get raped, maybe most at one time or another if you include spousal rape. And personally, I'd be happy to hold the guy while the lady took a good , well wound-up kick - or loan her a Buck knife if that's what she wants - before turning him in and tell 'em he fell.

Ian

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Saw the clip...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: kenadrian on Jun 30, 2006 6:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... on the Internet. It reassured me that the decision to abandon television fifteen years ago was still one of the best decisions of my life. It also made my stomach turn. Shame on whomever wrote that piece of garbage, the actors for agreeing to film it, and the producers for airing it. It was disgusting and, unfortunately, some young men and women will normalize it.

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To robmikejas
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Jun 30, 2006 6:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
LIBERAL? Someone who condone rape is a liberal? No, he's a violent pervert. If you equate the two, you've been listening to Coulter or Malkin too much. I'm mostly a Liberal. Honest, there is no "America hating liberal conspiracy"; I'm sure someone would have told me.

Why in Hell do people have to demonize huge swaths of people with whom they disagree, anyway? Civil discourse has died a sad death in this country. I fully expect the country to follow.

And don't think a woman can't harm a man - I've trained enough of them, and had a couple try. Ladies: if you try to hit a guy, you are a) a fool, b) no gentleman (see R.A. Heinlein), and c) giving up your right not to get hurt. It STILL doesn't entitle the guy to rape.

I've not seen this movie or whatever it is, so I've only been commenting on the idea of rape, and what women have told me about it.

Ian
And it was such a nice place, too.

And just FYI, I am veteran, 6'2" tall, now disabled, of a family of generations of other wartime veterans, s lifelong martial artist, a woodsman, and I would not lay violent hands on a woman who wasn't really trying to physically harm me, and then no more than necessary to stay intact myself.

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it's sad
[Report this comment]
Posted by: WyrdSister on Jun 30, 2006 6:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that there are so many men out there who just don't understand the nature of rape.

Rape is VIOLENCE!

Rape is about CONTROL.

Period.

» RE: it's sad Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: it's sad Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: it's sad Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» you are right Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: How do you know such about women? Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: How do you know such about women? Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» That's such bullshit Posted by: DavidByron

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Haven't seen the clip, but...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Jesse on Jun 30, 2006 7:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nor did the link to the story frmo Africa tell the joke that was offensive (I'd have like to have seen what the guy said).

But, that said, it seems to me there are several ways to read the episode and and the scene.

For instance, might it be a case of "make-up sex" that so many couples find pretty good? I know I have been in relationships where we fought and ended up having sex afterwards and both of us thought it was pretty darned good.

It could be read as a man acting out violence to his wife, yes.

Or it could be read as a man and wife fighting and also acting out a BDSM fantasy in a less-than-healthy way.

Sometimes I think that analyses like the above leave no room for nuance. And if there's one thing where nuance is important, it's in human sexual relationships.

For example, I would never argue that women 'enjoy' rape. But there are women and men who have bondage fantasies and act them out -- where do they fit into this? (I realize that the difference is that the bondage/S&M crowd is engaged in consensual behavior).

What about the scene in 'A Clockwork Orange'? It's pretty chilling in a way, but does it fetishize rape? How do we evaluate that?

There is a difference, a vast one, between 'I had sex with him becuase I felt pressure to do so/used poor judgement/wasn't comfortable with it at the time' and 'I told him no and he did it anyway.' The latter is rape. he former--maybe not. But this often gets lost in debates like this.

I'm not offering too many answers here. Just thinking that maybe we shouldn't all jump to conclusions immediately.

» RE: BDSM fantasies Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: BDSM fantasies Posted by: Jesse
» RE: BDSM fantasies Posted by: jem
» RE: BDSM fantasies Posted by: Jesse

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Hip-Hop & 8-year-olds calling girls "bitches"
[Report this comment]
Posted by: fairleft on Jun 30, 2006 7:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This offensive incident on TV is terrible, and it would be horrific if it became 'normalized.'

However, putting this on Alternet's front page is a same old Alternet, ignoring the elephant and flyswatting the fleas.

In this case the elephant is the far far larger impact of the dehumanization and abuse of women on MTV, now primarily in wildly popular hip-hop videos. An excellent radio interview is at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/
story.php?storyId=5437124&ft=1&f=1015

» Already Normalized Posted by: Steven Wanzell

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What about date rape? Statutory rape? Figurative rape in the Old Testament?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: eastcoker on Jun 30, 2006 8:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think we need to cover these three topics: date rape, statutory rape, and rape in the Old Testament.
I once attended a lecture on the Old Testament on one of the prophets where the professor explained the symbolic language of rape in the Old Testament. This is my religion he was teaching about. Uh-huh. Ok. How do you stomach that one?
With all this talk about religion these days, I think we need to dig a little deeper on Alternet. The subject of rape is as all old as the hills, and we need to get to the root of it.

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Why are men still joking about...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Orwells_nightmare on Jun 30, 2006 8:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...male rape? Female rape is considered a heinous crime, and rightly so, but male rape is considered a punchline. I wonder how the unreported female rape stats measure up again the equivalent male stats, considering the victim is liable to end up part of a Jay Leno monolgue about dropping soap and prison showers?

I also wonder about Third World rape statistics, where I'm told there's a belief among some cultures that the cure for HIV is to have sex with a virgin child.

» Ever seen Heavenly Creatures? Posted by: eastcoker

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A Woman's Response to Ignorant Sheeplepeeple
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Posted by: sigridfroid on Jun 30, 2006 8:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
please see my response to the doubting sheeplepeople above (shoulda posted it as a stand-alone comment.)

i agree that male-on-male rape is also often joked about in a dismissive way and that is BAD and WRONG. but male-on-female rape is rarely joked about, or even discussed at all in polite company. at most a simplistic "rape is wrong" scenario occasionally appears in the popular media which doesn't speak truthfully to the issue at all.

anyway, let's all take a deep breath and quite name-calling and work together to help minimize rape (i'd say "eradicate" but i am not THAT idealistic anymore...)

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This article is a joke
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ghoulman on Jun 30, 2006 8:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus H. Christ with a pogo stick up his arse ... is all you have to prop up your premise for this article some twat from the University of Nairobi and a TV show???

If you think this is somehow helpful to women devestated by rape, you're living in a bourgeois bubble honey.

It's a drama!!! Note, a great drama that depicts people well, instead of just presenting misogynistic sexbots to objectify, brainless house whores, or skinny teenage sluts ... because all teen girls are sluts just looking for it right? Well, that's what all the "entertainment media" presents women as all fucking day... Rescue Me does better and it's a huge mistake to judge it as the usual American propoganda and not a sincere work of drama.

Note... lots of women have rape fantasies, just like other sorts of odd secret sexual desires. Women are human beings, sexual beings, Rescue Me is honest about that (the characters in question do know and love each other).

You're making this whole issue up. It's crap.

Did you bother to mention the Harvard University Dean who said women aren't good at science and math? A little more serious and has real affects in, you may not be aware of, reality. Better than digging around for a quote by some jerk from a far, far, more sexist culture half a world away.

Terrible article. Stop drinking. It will help.

» FINALLY... Posted by: Scientz
» RE: This article is a joke Posted by: joaniede

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Rape fantasies
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Orwells_nightmare on Jun 30, 2006 8:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd like to know who started this bullshit myth. I don't believe women have rape fantasies. It plays into that 'no means yes she wanted it really' crap. There's no such thing as a female rape fantasy, because it seems to me that by its very definition, if it's a fantasy, it's not rape. It's a submissive sex fantasy. There's a difference.

In turn, guys might have domination fantasies, but not rape. I would hope anyway. I don't think I'd like to know any guy who had serious rape fantasies.

It seems like part of the traditional hunter-prey attitude, where sex is something men chase and women give up. That needs to go.

» Submissive sex fantasy Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: Submissive sex fantasy Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» the Honey Trap? Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: the Honey Trap? Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» Guys should do the chasing! Posted by: eastcoker
» Actually... Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: Actually...you're all wrong Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: Actually...you're all wrong Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: ape fantasies Posted by: saywhat?

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Rape In the Age of Porn
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Stonecutter on Jun 30, 2006 8:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most--but by no means all--civilized men who've been well educated and informed by their own maturation can understand and condemn forceable rape, the kind perpetrated in the 1988 film "The Accused" (a movie eminently worth seeing again just to ponder these issues). We realize it's a barbaric and criminal act of power and brutalization, even as many younger men immersed in the hunt for the next "score" are not at all clear where the lines should be drawn in their so-called "normal" sexual relationships with "modern", excessively seductive, "emancipated" women.

On "The Sopranos", Dr. Melphi's sexual assault in a parking garage stairwell was depicted with a verisimilitude that's consistent with violent rape as it's come to be recognized, however begrudingly, by our "male-dominated" society, our creative media and our courts. In the French film "Irreversible", probably unknown to most Americans, there's perhaps the most realistic, vicious, prolonged rape scene in the history of cinema. I'd like to believe that most men, straight or gay, would be shocked and repulsed by the intense violence of this scene, despite it's dark appeal to common male fantasies of enforced domination and sexual subjugation. Yes, rape is rape, even more unequivocally when accompanied by anti-erotic coercion and violence. There are soild arguments, social, cultural and legal, to validate it's prohibition from civilized society.

Having affirmed this rule of law and civility, I would argue that for younger men living in the "Age of Porn"--the immersion of mainstream American culture in the joys and horrors of omnipresent porn, readily accessible in 1000 flavors by the click of a mouse, much of it free, the core of most visual advertising, visible 24/7 in the grossly seductive, whorish apparel of most teenage and even pre-pubescent girls in and out of school--the ability to clearly and quickly discern the limits of consensual or "rough" sex, relative to obvious forceable rape, or to righteously condemn mildly pressed but non-violent sex as still "rape" because the girl may later have second thoughts, may be impaired by the erotically saturated atmosphere we're all breathing, and the torrent of mixed signals young hormone-driven men receive about the "rules" of sexual behavior, and the relative threshhold of "enjoyment" for women.

When it comes to sexual standards, America is still the schizoid it's been for 400 years, ever since the Puritans drove all their sane, well-adjusted neighbors out of Massachusetts. We bathe in cultural and media sex, swim in it on the Web, but in private we still often repress and inhibit its discussion, natural expression or exploration. In the paradoxical era of extreme Christian fundamentalism that has erupted in tandem with, or in reaction to our porn-charged culture, attitudes among the young toward sexual contact have shifted dramatically from the days when getting to "first base" meant kissing on the lips after the third date, and "Where The Boys Are" was the climax of sexual conquest movies.

Now, fellatio is dispensed by many "good" young girls at booze-fueled parties with the same insouciance that accompanied tongue-kissing 40 years ago. A BJ is the new "first base", and more often than parents of young females want to contemplate, this is no longer considered extraordinary, but more of a basic expectation (My teenage sons have been eyewitnesses to this reality). A girl who is saying "yes" to the porn-fueled mind and raging hormones of a young male, consensual partner either through words, behavior, dress or a combination of these signals, may have a rocky ride if she suddenly, instantaneously says "no" after the train has left the station. Rape is still rape, but to a new, younger generation of men and teenage boys, in a time when misogynistic porn and rap are as accessible as fast food, it just may not be as repugnant as it should be.

» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» Excellent analysis Stonecutter Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Stonecutter
» As a matter of fact,... Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Kym525
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Stonecutter

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Not Just Men
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Posted by: Bab5nutz on Jun 30, 2006 8:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of the people who have been hardest on rape victims, in my experience, have been women.
One was my grandmother. She had some rather old-fashioned ideas about women and their roles. If a rape case ever came up on the news, her response was always the same. "she asked for it." She even said that of a case where a six year old girl was abducted, raped and murdered.
I could never look at her quite the same way after that.

» RE: Not Just Men Posted by: mazel
» RE: Not Just Men Posted by: Stonecutter
» RE: Not Just Men Posted by: Trytobeaware

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I haven't seen this show,...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Orwells_nightmare on Jun 30, 2006 8:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but in all fairness, maybe they did it because they intend to dramatize the aftermath later on down the line. Maybe they WANT to start a debate on the subject. Just a theory.

I don't support gratuitous sex and violence on television, but if we start demanding they turn away from the traumatic, the offensive or the controversial, I think that's dangerous.

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I watch the show regularly
[Report this comment]
Posted by: epski on Jun 30, 2006 9:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't miss an episode. Barely watch TV, but this is one show that is unabashed about showing the chaos of adult lives in a crazy world. While frequently over-the-top, its deeply flawed characters are what make the show compelling, though occasionally a scene like the one in question will air, and it's like watching a car crash. In context, you don't question it at all, but it's still very uncomfortable.

Where were all of you for the practical rape of Maria Bello's character by Viggo Mortensen's in "The History of Violence"? Same deal, IMO.

And of course rape is not funny or cool, etc., etc. I'm not condoning it, but this is like the religious right going off on a movie without seeing it, you know?

» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: Bab5nutz
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: YogiBear

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Touchy subject
[Report this comment]
Posted by: joebuck on Jun 30, 2006 9:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I won't delve into true criminal rape where someone is grabbed and assaulted. But in the bedroom that has to be one of the number one fantasies for men and women. I have been with 20 women in my life and the majority loved that role play: forceful, choking, slapping etc. You may not want to admit it but it is the same reason women are attracted to rough guys or bad boys, it is the age old animal kingdom male dominance we started with. Most of these women and it's not like they were trash, just average women I thought were attractive, wanted it to be rougher than I was really comfortable with. I don't want to leave marks or choke someone unconscious because of the possible brain damage or get into cutting etc. Most women are right there if you want to experiment and push boundaries, they may never initiate it but they are very receptive. I am just offering a different viewpoint for the reason the court cases are so hard to prove. It's a mess but I don't mind discussing it though I'm sure most of the whackos on here who go ballistic about every little thing will flip, but if you guys ever did anything to change the world instead of bullshitting up alternet to make yourselves feel better, well maybe there would be change. Until then enjoy the world you allow to exist and get off on bashing:)

» RE: Touchy subject Posted by: pomes
» RE: Touchy subject Posted by: Orwells_nightmare

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Never met a man who joked about raping women
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Posted by: pomes on Jun 30, 2006 10:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only someone whose main experience with men comes from television could delude themselves into thinking that men actually sit around JOKING about rape. Quite the contrary, I think cracking a joke about raping a woman around a bunch of guys is a good way to get your ass kicked. Men react violently to the idea of a woman being raped, and will want to pummel someone who is even accused of it. Raping women is an emotional hair-trigger issue with men. Men are conditioned socially (and most likely genetically) to protect and defend women, to look after them and see to their needs.

On a personal note, my last girlfriend left me for a man that she claimed months before had tried to rape her. I think, if anything, women are more forgiving of rape than men are.

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leary should be held answerable
[Report this comment]
Posted by: wleming on Jun 30, 2006 11:13 AM   
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If Leary is going to sanction rape on his "entertainment" show then why not hold him accountable for what he is presenting. Does he have sponsors and can you write a letter or postcard?

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Look At What's Really F-ed Up, Alternet
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Posted by: fairleft on Jun 30, 2006 11:33 AM   
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It's common for 7-year-old boys to spout "I wanna f--- you" sh-t to 7-year-old girls at the local elementary school. That's not coming from Dennis Leary and some essentially adults-only TV show.

Whattabout the pervasive crap spouting directly out of our MTV, its white and black "women are for sex, and only sexy ones are worth a damn" cult? That's what's really hurting our daughters, and the stereotyping and abuse starts very very young.

» 7 year old boys Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: 7 year old boys Posted by: pomes
» RE: 7 year old boys Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: 7 year old boys Posted by: fairleft

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Women suffering for their men does happen
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Posted by: oldsmobile on Jun 30, 2006 11:36 AM   
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Obviously not defending rape, but I should point out that interestingly in some east-African countries (for instance Uganda) women regularly and perhaps more importantly, voluntarily use substances to dry out their vagina for their husband's enjoyment. One of course can always nitpick on what "voluntary" here means, but this is widely practiced.

Any comments on this?

» RE: misunderstandings happen Posted by: Ghoulman
» Thank you! Posted by: eastcoker

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Actually, men are a joke...
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Posted by: Blue Heron on Jun 30, 2006 11:43 AM   
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And the fact that they are still stuck in a neanderthal mindset proves it now, doesn't it? It is a shame that people would still get all giddy about the topic, but I think this is because men have never had a serious discussion about it. And they should. It is their probem after all. I have no interest in helping them resolve their ape-like behavior issues. And I think they should remain on the fringes of society until they resolve them.

» piss off Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: piss off Posted by: pomes
» RE: Actually, men are a joke... Posted by: anniedine
» Here's my challenge to you . . Posted by: FauxPorteno
» No apologies, no regrets - ever. Posted by: Blue Heron
» Kym Kym Kym . . . Posted by: FauxPorteno
» Oh Poor Faux . . . Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Actually, men are a joke... Posted by: MatthewSavage
» the feminist left Posted by: sheeplepeeple
» Well... Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Well... Posted by: pomes
» All points of view welcome here Posted by: Blue Heron
» Didn't ask for your advice Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Well... Posted by: Kym525
» Links Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Links Posted by: pomes
» RE: Links Posted by: Kym525
» My problem is still with men Posted by: Blue Heron
» interesting Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Links Posted by: FauxPorteno
» RE: here here Posted by: saywhat?
» RE: Actually, men are a joke... Posted by: Logic's Edge

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Why are men still joking about rape?
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Posted by: lisebrouillette on Jun 30, 2006 12:09 PM   
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Why ARE men still joking about rape?

Because opinions and mentalities have not changed.

The social context HAS changed, thanks to some forward-thinking men and women and ground-breaking medical break-throughs such as contraception. It does make an immense difference that women be not tied by the fear of pregnancy, that they need not stay in an abusive relationship for lack of anywhere to go or any means of supporting themselves.

But the ways of thinking have not changed. A shockingly high number of people still think that a woman getting raped provoked it, that a woman getting beaten deserved it, that a wife being scorned was unloving and cold, that a mother whose child gets killed was neglectful and unfit - and that a successful career woman does it at the expense of her family and that she's pushy and selfish. A shockingly high number of people stil believe that a woman is nothing but an extension - someone's mother, someone daughter, someone's wife, someone's employee, but never someone herself. She has no needs, no wants, no separate personality. When she says 'no' it really means 'yes' or 'maybe'. Who cares what she really thinks anyway, right? That is, If you admit she can think!

And THAT'S why it's still such a big joke that a woman should dare to 'pretend' say no: because for too many people, whatever a woman claims is STILL not to be taken seriously.

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It's a freaking TV show
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Posted by: Entheogenic on Jun 30, 2006 1:27 PM   
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I've never seen this show, but I feel that I have to comment.

It's a TV show. It's not "glorifying" rape, or making a "rape joke." It's portraying, as part of dramatic entertainment, something that actually happens every day. The fact that it DOES actually happen is a damn shame, but that doesn't change the fact that it does happen. Women get raped, sometimes by their husbands, and society does have to deal with it. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean we can or should just ignore it and hope it goes away--look at the discussion and dialoge that this scene has produced; it's brought attention and awareness to the issue, which perhaps was the intent.

As far as the female character "liking it," again I didn't see the scene so my comments are limited, but I'd imagine that that happens too. Women (or man) doesn't think she (or he) wants to have sex, partner forces sex, she (or he) enjoys it contrary to expectations. Yes, sex shouldn't have been forced in the first place, but I think saying that a scene like this implies somehow that the producers and actors want to imply that "rape is an acceptable way to deal with female insubordination and women often enjoy rape" is just plain silly. It's a work of fiction, portraying events that are realistic. Get over yourselves.


Entheogenic

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Some of the psychological factors in rape and abuse
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 30, 2006 2:04 PM   
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I'd just like to take a step back and make a list of points:

Rape during wartime: Psychological effects include humiliation of both men and women, even including racist notions of 'changing the race' - this is being played out in the Sudan as we speak. While a lot of porn is indeed disgusting and abusive, the issue of rape predates video technology.

The parents of convicted rapists: This is worth studying. I'd guess that the parents were more likely then not a passive, submissive woman and an aggressive, violent man. Women in such situations have a tendency to take out their submerged aggression on their children, and male and female children of such relationships have a tendency to behave like their parents - the male children end up hating women, and the female children end up hating themselves. This is a not a value judgement, it's a pyschological effect, i.e. 'the cycle of abuse'.

Recovery from rape: this is the most difficult issue and is the real reason why rape penalties should be vastly increased - I'd say a ten-year minimum is a good idea, especially since DNA evidence is so conclusive these days. In today's world, an eighteen-year old girl with a stash of illegal drugs can serve ten years, while a rapist is often released after six months (on parole). This is so screwed up!

It's also worth noting that parents or guardians who abuse children in sexual or other manners tend to be strict authoritarians, their motivation being that they don't want the child to reveal the abuse. How did people ever get so messed up? Their parents are the primary culprit, I'd guess, as in Columbine. It makes one wonder if parenting licenses shouldn't be a requirement for having children.

Finally, violent self-defense skills should be learned by all women (and men as well), and that includes anti-passivity and situational awareness training. I'm rather doubtful of the notion of 'rehabilitating' rapists and child molesters - in such cases, violent self-defense is entirely appropriate. Go for their eyes, in other words - maybe that old Chinese notion of punitive mutilation wasn't such a bad idea. A blind rapist is an ineffective rapist. Watch out for the "Monster" syndrome, however.

Sure is a depressing topic - and I didn't even get to prison rape as a deliberate punishment strategy. Humor? It's just too dark to laugh about... though they do say that laughter dispels evil. Can you say "Bobbit" without laughing?

» RE: I disagree with violent self defense Posted by: thoughtcriminal

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rape can be funny
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Posted by: folkdude01 on Jun 30, 2006 3:26 PM   
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Here is a portion of one of Carlin's classic pieces:
"Ohhh, some people don't like you to talk like that. Ohh, some people like to shut you up for saying those things. You know that. Lots of people. Lots of groups in this country want to tell you how to talk. Tell you what you can't talk about. Well, sometimes they'll say, well you can talk about something but you can't joke about it. Say you can't joke about something because it's not funny. Comedians run into that shit all the time. Like rape. They'll say, "you can't joke about rape. Rape's not funny." I say, "fuck you, I think it's hilarious. How do you like that?" I can prove to you that rape is funny. Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd. See, hey why do you think they call him "Porky," eh? I know what you're going to say. "Elmer was asking for it. Elmer was coming on to Porky. Porky couldn't help himself, he got a hard- on, he got horney, he lost control, he went out of his mind." A lot of men talk like that. A lot of men think that way. They think it's the woman's fault. They like to blame the rape on the woman. Say, "she had it coming, she was wearing a short skirt." These guys think women ought to go to prison for being cock teasers. Don't seem fair to me. Don't seem right, but you can joke about it. I believe you can joke about anything. It all depends on how you construct the joke. What the exaggeration is. What the exaggeration is. Because every joke needs one exaggeration. Every joke needs one thing to be way out of proportion. Give you an example. Did you ever see a news story like this in the paper? Every now and then you run into a story, says, "some guy broke into a house, stole a lot of things, and while he was in there, he raped an 81 year old woman." And I'm thinking to myself, "WHY??? What the fuck kind of a social life does this guy have?" I want to say, "why did you do that?" "Well she was coming on to me. We were dancing and I got horney. Hey, she was asking for it, she had on a tight bathrobe." I'll say, "Jesus Christ, be a little fucking selective next time will you?"

Now I've probably got the feminists all pissed off at me because I'm joking about rape. Feminists want to control your language. Feminists want to tell you how to talk. And their not alone. Their not alone. I'm not picking on the feminists. They got a lot of company in this country. There's a lot of groups, a lot of institutions in this country want to control your language. Tell you what you can say and what you can't say. Government wants to tell you some things you can't say because it's against the law. Well you can't say this because it's against the regulation. Well here's something you can't say because it's a secret. "You can't tell him that, because he's not clear to know that." Government wants to control information and control language, because that's the way you control thought...and basically that's the game their in. Same with religion. Religion is nothing but mind control. Religion is just trying to control your mind, control your thought, so their going to tell you some things you shouldn't say because they're sins. And besides telling you some things you shouldn't say, religion's going to suggest to you some things you ought to be saying. Here's something you ought to say first thing when you wake up in the morning. Here's something you ought to say just before you go to sleep at night. Here's something we always say on the third Wednesday in April after the first full moon in spring at four o'clock when the bells ring. Religion is always suggesting things you ought to be saying. Same with political groups of all kinds, political activists, anti- bias groups, special interest groups, are going to suggest the correct political vocabulary. The way you ought to be saying things, and that's where the feminists come in..."

» RE: rape can be funny Posted by: pomes
» RE: rape can be funny Posted by: saywhat?
» Yep Posted by: eastcoker

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Rape damned well is not a joke. But this article is.
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Posted by: Sojourner on Jun 30, 2006 5:16 PM   
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The question is: How many politically incorrect references can be found on some superficial tv soap opera?

The tone of this piece presupposes that no females are involved in the creation of “Rescue Me” stories. I just waded through miles of slick graphics and tv BS to locate the names of the writers.

All I found was the soap opera crap that I have diligently avoided for the last half dozen years by turning my tv into a dvd player, where I choose the films I watch.

I could not find out who wrote the show in question, because it seems that tv these days has “co-creators.” The only previous use of that term I heard had to do with the relationship of God and man. (I assume that reference doesn’t disturb political correctness since we all know God is a she, right?)

However, I think it is up to the writer of this article either to demonstrate that no females were involved in the script or to change the title to “How can men AND WOMEN. etc.”

I'm sick and tired of being your scapegoat just because it is convenient. You're beating a dead horse, long dead, and long gone. Get real.

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Precedents
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Posted by: YogiBear on Jun 30, 2006 5:42 PM   
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I was a fan of the show, but found the last episode distasteful -- the rape scene of course was a big turnoff. Ususally it takes a show several seasons before the plots get ridiculous in an effort to retain viewers, but Rescue Me has already gone over the edge.

But there is plenty of precedent for rape in TV and film, virtually every James Bond movie ever made includes a scene where he forces a woman down, but then she gives in to him for casual sex.

I'm sure women exist (I actually know one) who like men to be forceful, and they probably ruin it for the rest of women because then men who meet them or hear about them expect everyone to be like that.

I believe that rape is likely under-reported, male rape possibly to an even larger degree because the stigma is worse. Our society treats victims of sexual assaults as if they are pariahs, as if sexual assault is somehow worse than murder. Notice we have a national database and notification system for sexual offenders, but not for people who have actually killed people (with no rape involved).

Furthermore, many news organizations' policies of not reporting names of victims of sex assaults might seem like doing them a favor, but it might also be helping to perpetuate the stigma. That they're women. They're weak and need protecting.

The scene was pretty clearly rape. That Dennis Leary and the other producers can't see that goes to the heart of the real issue.

» mind conditioning Posted by: FauxPorteno

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no it is "who do you believe?"
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Posted by: saywhat? on Jun 30, 2006 8:59 PM   
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the feminists or the fundamentalists? read again

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saint
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Posted by: glorybe on Jul 1, 2006 1:46 PM   
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The so called feminists are a large part of the rape problem. Anybody who has been in this world for a few decades surely has known a woman that falsely cried rape. False accusations may even be more numerous than the act itself. Yet after a man is destroyed by false accusations just try to name a single instance where a female has received a life ruining prison sentence for her lies. Colby Bryant may be the ultimate example as are the boys on the Duke Hockey team. Just why is it that these females aren't serving a life sentence for false accusations? The issue is so contorted maybe the courts need to stop trying rape cases completely.

» RE: saint Posted by: Uncategorizeable
» RE: saint Posted by: Durga_is_my_homey
» The statistics bear you out Posted by: DavidByron
» RE: The statistics bear you out Posted by: Durga_is_my_homey

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muzzle on a sandwich.
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Posted by: markedwmn on Jul 1, 2006 2:57 PM   
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It's funny how I read your comments on how horrible it is that men joke about rape and how horrified you are by the act, and I don't really feel supported or warmed. I really just feel annoyed and tired.
I was raped twice in my life, 2 1/2 years apart, both times in medium sized Midwestern town, both random attacks by strangers, one violent by a borderline retarded young man one month off of probation for armed robbery, and the next by a serial rapist whose gig included crying and begging my forgiveness.
I have spent a lifetime ruminating on those several hours of my life that I spent with a total strangers dick in me, and I really still have profoundly little to say about it. Other than it is very simple, and very complex. I don't hate men. I don't particularly hate my attackers. I have hated that my life is "like this", that I am the person who has this in her past.
I trust my own meter on what really crosses the line on this matter. Certain ideas and pieces of news make me physically nauseous - the idea that I might not have been offered the morning after pill. That anyone would *DARE* to tell me what to do with a pregnancy had that had been the result. And the stories I hear from Africa and other countries where rape is systematically used as a weapon.
But fiction is fiction. Just like porn is porn and not real life. These are things that someone made with the idea that someone else would want to see them. The RESCUE ME plotline is really pretty Greek, with two brothers and one woman. It has about as much to do with rape as a granade has to do with a sandwich.
I don't really think that the media creates rapists. To rape is to ruin yourself, utterly and beyond redemption. It's a pretty big thing, and it wasn't even something that either of the men who raped me seemed to enjoy. It was clear they thought they would. But in the moment, they didn't really know what to do, kept losing their errections and seemed mainly worried about what they were going to do next. It was terrifying, and it was huge, and it did not ruin me, but it did ruin them.
I don't know what to tell all of you people who so desperately want to stop rape to do with your energy. I have never figured it out. But putting a muzzle on hour-long cable shows won't do it, I am sure about that.

» Excellent Comment Posted by: fairleft
» RE: muzzle on a sandwich. Posted by: Jnutter
» RE: muzzle on a sandwich. Posted by: Orwells_nightmare

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I vote for vengeance
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Posted by: sailor50 on Jul 1, 2006 4:38 PM   
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As a 66-year-old female, I fail to understand why most women don't go after their attackers. I would, I always knew I would, and I have warned men that that is exactly what I would do. I may not be as big, strong or fast as a man, but I do have a really good trigger finger and would not hesitate to use it.

» RE: I vote for vengeance Posted by: markedwmn
» Vigilantiism can be funny... Posted by: Blue Heron

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men still dont listen
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Posted by: blorbin on Jul 1, 2006 5:08 PM   
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Why is that whenever women open up about rape the first response of many men is to say men get raped too! WHile I do not contest this assertion, I find it very disturbing that this is often the first and ONLY repsonse. Listen up boys. Get educated and involved. This is not a contest to see who gets raped more. ANd the fact remains that MEN are the ones doing the raping of both women and men.

» RE: men still dont listen Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: men still dont listen Posted by: Orwells_nightmare

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Women rapists.
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Posted by: Dewa on Jul 2, 2006 4:44 AM   
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When I was 4, and my brother approximately 1 or younger, we were violently molested repeatedly by two sisters (our babysitters). Being lucky, when my parents found out they took action, but to no avail, we were quite poor at the time.
But in their investigation they found out that they had been molesting almost all (or all) or the children in our neighbourhood (I'd say almost 20 children between the ages of a few months to 12 years old, some for years). The reason the case didn't move forward as much as it could have was because all but one parent were too ashamed/scared, etc. The only other parent who was for going forward was the single mother of an approximately 4 month old baby.
Now that our family has enough money to actually do something, too much time has passed and the courts wouldn't recognise it. Gotta love the Jutice System, huh?
But, I digress. Although I have been active in anti-rape and pedophilia movements (ever since I realised I wasn't the one with the problem), I have always been confused when it came to the women empowerment side of it, as I too am a female. It turned more so into a fear of adults - but now that I'm an "adult" that doesn't work so well. Although I do fear (well... not so much fear as just feel very uncomfortable) men to an extent, but that's a seperate issue.
But I think if anything convinced me that rape is only about power and being completely fucked up - it was them.

Ps. Sorry about the ramblings to anyone who wasn't interested. But it's part of my belief that to raise awareness on something that it's better to share experiences than just statistics and rantings (although sometimes thoughs are good aswell).

» Probably wouldn't count as rape Posted by: DavidByron

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Guys do cry when the lights are out and no one is around.
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Posted by: CovertRage on Jul 2, 2006 6:02 AM   
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The myth is that men joke about rape because they do the raping. The truth is men control the statistics that bely that many a man has endured the experience of having been overpowered sexually. The psychotic crassness aside, machismo is rarely without purpose or cause. Rape is a joke for many of the same reason racism is a joke, that sexism is a joke, that poverty is a joke, or that any human frailty is a joke. Laughter is still great therapy when keeping your sanity in the madness known as life under the influence of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. Jokes from blacks about slavery and Jews about Auschwitz alike serve to ease the pain until we can get somewhere to cry. Make no mistake, none of it is funny, but, if we don't joke and laugh, we're subject to kill someone, if not ourselves.

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Forcible rape in Jihad
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Posted by: Progressive on Jul 2, 2006 2:39 PM   
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According to the Sharia of >Islam, all captured women are required to be raped by the male soldiers who have captured them. [A recent historic example of this was in Bangla Desh, when all captured women were confiscated by Pakistani soldiers in order to be forcibly raped.] This custom was enforced by Muh.ammad, and made into an official law by him. The difference between this and United States law is very clear: in Viet-nam United States soldiers were under orders first to rape and then next to murder all captured Viet-namese women [which was quite regularly done], whereas Muslim soldiers are allowed to spare the lives of captured women after raping them. American Christians behave like depraved fiends, whereas Muslim Mujaheddin are generous and humane.

» RE: Forcible rape in Jihad Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Forcible rape in Jihad Posted by: Progressive
» RE: Forcible rape in Jihad Posted by: YogiBear
» Bullshit. Posted by: DavidByron

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rape vs. rough love
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Posted by: owleyes on Jul 2, 2006 2:48 PM   
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There is rape, which is one of the more unpleasant things imaginable. People say they think rape is more about violence than sex, and that's true. But really it's about both of those things wrapped in a package of kleptomania. The rapist is proud of his big balls and brags that he's the kind of guy who, when he sees something he wants, just takes it. He has a hard time with his masculinity; stealing whatever he wants, especially sex, makes him feel like more of a man. If he can make someone cry and beg him for mercy, it only validates his feelings of manliness.
But then there's this other thing which involves sex and violence but it's not rape. It's when someone you love and trust physically manhandles you and kind of roughs you up. That is incredibly arousing for many women. I don't know if this is more true of women who have been sexually assaulted--I wouldn't be surprised if it were. But in any case, it's true. I did not see this television show, but I'm intrigued that someone tried to present a situation where the difference between sexual assault and hot sex was a fine line.

» RE: rape vs. rough love Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: rape vs. rough love Posted by: blueskybaby

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dennis leary is an idiot
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Posted by: angryashell on Jul 2, 2006 8:53 PM   
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rape is not a joke. not for entertainment either. from my understanding he has taken a flippant stance when confronted with the subject of the show. well leary you h ear me knocking? im coming for you. i pray that no woman in your family is ever sexually assalted by a stranger or HER HUSBAND. he and the writers are insensitive idiots and i hope the show gets canceled. i am limited to what i can say here becasue all the words are not lady like nor allowed on this board. i will say that i hope dennis gets cancer of the tounge and dies a slow painful death but only after he loses the use of his penis then the slow death. yes i am that angry.

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I don't think rape is a joking matter
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Jul 3, 2006 12:37 PM   
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In fact, I'm so sick of it being used as a bludgeon against men in every context imaginable that I sometimes wish women would all just move to the other half of the globe and leave us in peace.

» happy to Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: happy to Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» That's a silly argument Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: That's a silly argument Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» Ok, Dad Posted by: Blue Heron

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Jokes about murder, etc.
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Posted by: chegitz guevara on Jul 3, 2006 6:16 PM   
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People joke about murder, theft, fraud, beating people up, etc. Why should rape be treated differently? We watch tv shows and movies and listen to music about people being murdered or committing murder as entertainment.

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Why can only men rape?
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Posted by: suprmark on Jul 3, 2006 11:09 PM   
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Rape is about sex and control, frequently using violence. A man who has sex with his wife or girlfriend when she doesn't want it is raping her right? There is no marital right guaranteeing sex whenever he feels like. It doesn't have to involve violence - he can just be persistant and 'seductive' and she will decide that ten minutes of sex is less of a bother than however long it will take him to lose interest. If you believe that this case is rape then I have a question for you: why can only men rape? If you do not belive this to be the case then you might as well stop reading as it is not the purpose of this post to figure out exactly what constitutes rape.
Women have sexual urges and they don't always coincide with men's (yes, men don't crave sex 24/7!). But when a man says 'no' does it somehow mean 'yes'? Or is an erection an automatic 'yes'? I have come home from work sick and tired to a horny girlfriend before. I went to bed to sleep, she to play. She was persistant and I was tired so I rolled over and let her have her way. It was about control - I had no control over my erection, and since I would not do the amount of violence necessarry to force her to stop no physical control either. It's a pretty pathetic story and I would not have shared it if not for the fact that no-one else has. Maybe no other man here has, but I doubt that, and I expect that I will be mocked by certain people for sharing it (why are you complaining you are getting so much sex?). I would not really have thought about it in terms of rape, more of an unpleasant experience that comes with living with someone with a different schedule. But when it happens to women many people call it rape (then say only men can rape) and I dislike double standards. Of course if what happened to me was rape then I probably have raped before, which is an equally disturbing thought. I doubt any of the women or men on this forum want to think of themselves as rapists so please ladies and gentlement: 'no' means 'no' not bug me enough and I'll roll over.

» Women joke about rape too Posted by: sisterbluerose

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Simple question
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Posted by: eringhorm on Jul 4, 2006 9:13 AM   
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Anyone know how we can contact the producers etc about this? I saw this episode when it played a couple weeks ago, and it really disturbed me. I feel like the producers need to hear that sort of thing from us.

» RE: Simple question Posted by: YogiBear

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What Joke?
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Posted by: The Glaivester on Jul 4, 2006 2:11 PM   
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When I saw that episode, I thought that this issue would come up. But I don't see why people should be outraged. This wasn't minimizing rape, nor do I see the episode as portraying this as a "reasonable male response." (Tommy Gavin has never been portrayed as a reasonable man).

What I saw was this: Tommy Gavin has always been portrayed as a selfish a**h**e who has serious dominance issues, particularly with his wife (when his wife leaves him again after the death of his son, he focuses on how to get back at her for leaving him more than on mourning his son). Considering that he put his own brother's head through a window for having a relationship with his soon-to-be-ex-wife, he seems to be exactly the sort of person who would rape a woman he considers to be "his" who, in his opinion "got out of line."

As far as his soon-to-be-ex-wife; I don't think she was shown to have "enjoyed it." She just found that she couldn't stop him, and so she basically shut down. I think that she more or less went into denial and convinced herself tafter the fact hat she had enjoyed it and that it was consensual because she couldn't deal with being raped.

In any case, Tommy has previously been clearly shown to be abusive, particularly towards women. So I don't see him as being set up as a role model, or his rape of his wife as being seen as acceptable behavior.

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Re: I found a master! Orwells nightmare is my master. He can pull my chain. Oh no.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Orwells_nightmare on Jul 5, 2006 10:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yikes, I've never been anyone's master before....Go get me a sandwich.

...err... please? I don't think I'm doing this right.

XD

» Nope, not a master, never mind. Posted by: eastcoker

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Feminist hatred of men is no joke either
[Report this comment]
Posted by: DavidByron on Jul 5, 2006 5:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The old "all men are rapists" accusation.
It's time you misandronists got some new material.

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If Ifs and Buts Were Candy and Nuts
[Report this comment]
Posted by: blueskybaby on Jul 5, 2006 7:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wish I could not look at discussions like this, but I can’t make myself.

I found the scene disturbing and find that its great fodder for all people who like to comfort themselves over their stake in the ground on this massive & complicated issue.

What I have no patience for is for people who really don’t have any skin in the game to rant and rave.

I’m envious of the fellow who said frankly that the environment and Iraq were more pressing problems for him and his family. That’s great and I wish I didn’t carry so much guilt & worry that I can’t push it down out of ‘the top 5’ for me and my family.

I’m envious of the simplicity of women who blame rape on the whole of men. If getting rid of jokes that encourage rape would make a dent in the number of rapes that occur, that would be the bees knees. Of course, most men wouldn't make a joke that crass in front of a woman anyway, and yes, humor can be a defense mechanism. The whole "its so wrong its funny just to say it" thing. Like using the word "retard" to your coworker over coffee hours after you cleaned a mentally and physically disabled person's crappy diaper. Most men are not rapists and many men are heroes of mine, and I don’t want them tarnished.

I’m sickened by men who seem to enjoy when women seduce young men, or an accuser is more believable as a liar because it somehow relieves this pseudo-feminist rage against men because of rampant sexual violence.

I’m open to suggestions from those who say mothering or improper mothering is what creates rape-friendly attitudes in men. Please, tell me more of what you think it is I can do?

I’m very much sympathetic to male victims of sexual violence. I think it must be very very tough to weather the damaging attitudes and misconceptions lauded upon any dialogue of rape, let alone to actually get proper healing and understanding.

I’m sympathetic to men who carry any weight with them knowing that some women may be afraid of them because of what other men have done. I am a trusting soul and still am, have lived a lot of places and have spanned several tax brackets in doing so, but I don’t know who is worthy of trust. I’m a nice girl with a decent IQ and usually get noticed for how perceptive I am about other people. Yet I narrowly escaped being penetrated by a guy who lucky for me was willing to take his fingers out of me to “let me go pee first”… and I ran away and escaped. Meanwhile he and his buddy raped my friend after I left. Not only was I shocked to be assaulted but that another guy not only wouldn’t stop it, but would do it too. Want to know about their character? Volunteers at a camp for people with disabilities, who were demonstrably GOOD at working with that special population. An old boss of mine who I worked for, drank with, and intermingled families with for years, makes me ask twice to unlock my car door while coming onto me before letting me out of the car after a late business travel flight. What does a rapist look like, so we can all avoid them?

No one knows, because its not that simple.

It’d be so peachy keen if there was a quick way to get at the root cause of the problem.

Rescue Me’s portrayal is damaging in that there is no redemptive value – entertainment included. As evidenced in this spread of comments, everyone from hardcore-company-line-feminists to men who’d love nothing more than to find out that rape is the #1 desire of womankind can lap at the cracked box of wine the show created.

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It was just a television show.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: yoursfaithfully on Jul 6, 2006 12:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These scenes are rare. I admit that I don't watch television anymore, and I don't see many action films, but I rarely hear about scenes like this. As someone else pointed out, A History of Violence had a scene like this, and it was striking (and tacky and crappy, like the rest of the film) because it is, thankfully, pretty rare in modern film. I'll generously grant that it was probably social commentary in AHOV, while that's less likely on Rescue Me, but the fact that we can COUNT how many times rape (male on female) is trivialized in the mainstream media is a very good thing.

In the real world, rape is illegal. Very illegal. If people are joking about rape more and more (I have no idea if this is true), it's because our sharia laws about rape are so ridiculous. Rape is considered the most heinous American crime. I agree that it's awful, but any violent assault is awful. I was robbed 6 months ago by two kids with a handgun. They'll never be caught, and I have to walk or bike past that same spot every day to get to work. But am I gonna chew someone's head off for joking about armed robbery?

Rape is bad, but lots of crimes are bad. Making rape "worse than murder" is right-wing and stupid. If we can joke about murder, why not rape? Is anyone complaining about comedians joking about drive-bys? Young people are killed in inner-city violence every day, but where's the outrage when comedians joke about gang-banging?

This is absurd. If comedians want to joke about rape, let's see you try and stop them. Rape is incredibly illegal. Convicted rapists (granted, most rapes are not reported, and few rapists are taken to trial) are punished for LIFE, while a dude who just beats the hell out of his girlfriend or child (how many comedians joke about their parents beating the hell out of them?) gets probation. Add the word "sex" to any American law, and the penalties skyrocket, and there's no psychological evidence to support that. That's right-wing.

Let's stop American sharia, and then see if I care about a cable television show.

Alternet Comments:

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Damn right
[Report this comment]
Posted by: popsicle67 on Jun 30, 2006 12:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A really close friend was attacked last winter on a date set up through a dating site. She still cannot go to the store where it happened after dark. She got lucky in that she got out of the car before she was penetrated so she didn't have the whole AIDS thing to worry about but she was agressively fondled
and held against her will for a short(thankfully) period. Now
as she still is trying to deal with the situation made harder by the fact that the cops haven't found the guy, her mom asks when is she going to just get over it. I didn't think I heard right at first because if ever there was a feminist it is this woman. I heard her right though and I have to ask myself,
how can a society stop something that it doesn't want to hear about. What is the grieving period when you "Almost" get raped.

» RE: Damn right Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Damn right Posted by: lisebrouillette
» DON'T ADD TO THE PROBLEM !! Posted by: maribelle
» DON'T MAKE THE PROBLEM WORSE! Posted by: maribelle

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very simple
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rsaxto on Jun 30, 2006 4:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact here is very simple: men who joke about rape are assholes and/or criminals.

» Who's the Actor? Posted by: sirossisofliver
» RE: very simple Posted by: pomes
» RE: very simple Posted by: Trytobeaware
» RE: very simple Posted by: Orwells_nightmare

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Only a Few
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Posted by: ChristopherLL on Jun 30, 2006 5:18 AM   
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Rape is about power and control and not sex. This country has become very much about power and control and has reduced sex to object rather than integrated with relationships. In my view this is the result of both men and women. Some how along the way males and females have become more adversarial and competetive rather than understanding and cooperative. Also there are few men who consider the act anything but repulsive and barbaric but it seems at times women focus all their resentment, anger and rejection of men on these singular acts. Men who commit rape are cowards and criminals, don't treat them as if they are anything else. Men who joke about the issue are merely weak and insecure. Look to those men who are not, they are all around.

» RE: Only a Few Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: AlphaHusky
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: kc4choice
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: Riverside
» Sick! Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: Only a Few Posted by: glorybe

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I have never ever heard a man joke about female rape. But about male rape? Yes, all the time
[Report this comment]
Posted by: sheeplepeeple on Jun 30, 2006 5:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There may be more male on male rapes than male on female rapes. In fact, I sat next to a retarded man on the bus a couple of weeks ago who told me he had been raped.

But I have never heard a man joke about a woman being raped. But the mainstream media is full of jokes, innuendoes, and threats about male prison rape. There is your story. Why is it that the mass media institutions, owned by the biggest and most powerful entities in America, constantly approve and condone jokes about male rape? Maybe because that is an effective way to control men?

But this article here is bogus. Your stats are bogus (one in three women abused before 18? Yeah, right!).
This article is the perfect example of extremist interest-group-oriented liberalism. This sort of fake liberalism is the worst possible thing about liberalism in America today. The article uses made-up bogus stats from some nonpartisan feminist ideologue foundation (Ms. Foundation for Women), which is accountable to no one, and cooks up these wild eyed bogus stories so that they can use these articles to apply for more grants and donations. This is what makes American liberalism useless to the vast majority of Americans. No wonder they vote for Bush and the GOP. THe Democrats are associated with this sort of interest-group, single-issue, gender-spoils liberalism that offers very little to the average American. This article represents the shreds of American liberalism.

» Stats are irrelevant Posted by: Joshua Holland
» More rapes of men within the US Posted by: DavidByron
» Actually it is typical Posted by: eastcoker
» hmmm? Posted by: kc4choice
» Well said Posted by: DavidByron

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I'm not pro-rape or anything...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: joaniede on Jun 30, 2006 5:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but I didn't see it that way. I saw a confused, hurt husband deal with his pain in an impulsive manner. They were married, after all. And they both ended up enjoying it, to their surprise. I didn't see it as advocating rape in retaliation for her speaking out. Besides, Tommy is always doing stupid, impulsive, crazy things. That's who he is. He gets in fights, he riskily jumps out of windows saving people, he almost runs people over in his truck; he does crazy things all the time. I don't think the show is advocating all of those crazy things. Give Rescue Me a break!

» Dude...? Posted by: jem
» RE: rape is rape is rape Posted by: LRayn
» So, If I'm Married... Posted by: Steven Wanzell

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sheeplepeeples blind man
[Report this comment]
Posted by: robmikejas on Jun 30, 2006 6:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real "liberal" here is sheeplepeeples. Allowing rape to exist and be condoned by people such as you, only advances the cause of violence in this world. Your attitude is so off base it is almost silly. I suggest you crawl back under the rock from which you slithered.

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Hey sheeplepeeple , learn what you're talking about
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Jun 30, 2006 6:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
before you shoot your mouth off. That one of three may be low. From the women I've spoken with - and the trust that implies is a considerable compliment - I'd put it at more like three out of five or MORE. Most of those are pre-puberty, too, the first time, anyway.

Why do you have such a hard time believing it?

It is a crime of violence, not sex. Domination? I don't know - it isn't something I understand at all. I've heard and read from several books and shrinks that suposedly "Every male has rape fantasies - it's perfectly normal"". Well then I'm not - I can't imagine anything resembling sex with a woman who is less than enthusiastic about it. Rape is - nauseating, angering - I can't find a single word for it.

The one character I stopped before he quite could, however, chose to resist sticking around and had to be carried to the ambulance before he could be arrested. I was a witness, and turned my "citizen's arrest" prisoner to S.O. willingly.

I had never met the girl before.

Women DON'T enjoy rape. A LOT of women get raped, maybe most at one time or another if you include spousal rape. And personally, I'd be happy to hold the guy while the lady took a good , well wound-up kick - or loan her a Buck knife if that's what she wants - before turning him in and tell 'em he fell.

Ian

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Saw the clip...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: kenadrian on Jun 30, 2006 6:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... on the Internet. It reassured me that the decision to abandon television fifteen years ago was still one of the best decisions of my life. It also made my stomach turn. Shame on whomever wrote that piece of garbage, the actors for agreeing to film it, and the producers for airing it. It was disgusting and, unfortunately, some young men and women will normalize it.

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To robmikejas
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Jun 30, 2006 6:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
LIBERAL? Someone who condone rape is a liberal? No, he's a violent pervert. If you equate the two, you've been listening to Coulter or Malkin too much. I'm mostly a Liberal. Honest, there is no "America hating liberal conspiracy"; I'm sure someone would have told me.

Why in Hell do people have to demonize huge swaths of people with whom they disagree, anyway? Civil discourse has died a sad death in this country. I fully expect the country to follow.

And don't think a woman can't harm a man - I've trained enough of them, and had a couple try. Ladies: if you try to hit a guy, you are a) a fool, b) no gentleman (see R.A. Heinlein), and c) giving up your right not to get hurt. It STILL doesn't entitle the guy to rape.

I've not seen this movie or whatever it is, so I've only been commenting on the idea of rape, and what women have told me about it.

Ian
And it was such a nice place, too.

And just FYI, I am veteran, 6'2" tall, now disabled, of a family of generations of other wartime veterans, s lifelong martial artist, a woodsman, and I would not lay violent hands on a woman who wasn't really trying to physically harm me, and then no more than necessary to stay intact myself.

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it's sad
[Report this comment]
Posted by: WyrdSister on Jun 30, 2006 6:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that there are so many men out there who just don't understand the nature of rape.

Rape is VIOLENCE!

Rape is about CONTROL.

Period.

» RE: it's sad Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: it's sad Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: it's sad Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» you are right Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: How do you know such about women? Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: How do you know such about women? Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» That's such bullshit Posted by: DavidByron

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Haven't seen the clip, but...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Jesse on Jun 30, 2006 7:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nor did the link to the story frmo Africa tell the joke that was offensive (I'd have like to have seen what the guy said).

But, that said, it seems to me there are several ways to read the episode and and the scene.

For instance, might it be a case of "make-up sex" that so many couples find pretty good? I know I have been in relationships where we fought and ended up having sex afterwards and both of us thought it was pretty darned good.

It could be read as a man acting out violence to his wife, yes.

Or it could be read as a man and wife fighting and also acting out a BDSM fantasy in a less-than-healthy way.

Sometimes I think that analyses like the above leave no room for nuance. And if there's one thing where nuance is important, it's in human sexual relationships.

For example, I would never argue that women 'enjoy' rape. But there are women and men who have bondage fantasies and act them out -- where do they fit into this? (I realize that the difference is that the bondage/S&M crowd is engaged in consensual behavior).

What about the scene in 'A Clockwork Orange'? It's pretty chilling in a way, but does it fetishize rape? How do we evaluate that?

There is a difference, a vast one, between 'I had sex with him becuase I felt pressure to do so/used poor judgement/wasn't comfortable with it at the time' and 'I told him no and he did it anyway.' The latter is rape. he former--maybe not. But this often gets lost in debates like this.

I'm not offering too many answers here. Just thinking that maybe we shouldn't all jump to conclusions immediately.

» RE: BDSM fantasies Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: BDSM fantasies Posted by: Jesse
» RE: BDSM fantasies Posted by: jem
» RE: BDSM fantasies Posted by: Jesse

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Hip-Hop & 8-year-olds calling girls "bitches"
[Report this comment]
Posted by: fairleft on Jun 30, 2006 7:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This offensive incident on TV is terrible, and it would be horrific if it became 'normalized.'

However, putting this on Alternet's front page is a same old Alternet, ignoring the elephant and flyswatting the fleas.

In this case the elephant is the far far larger impact of the dehumanization and abuse of women on MTV, now primarily in wildly popular hip-hop videos. An excellent radio interview is at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/
story.php?storyId=5437124&ft=1&f=1015

» Already Normalized Posted by: Steven Wanzell

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What about date rape? Statutory rape? Figurative rape in the Old Testament?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: eastcoker on Jun 30, 2006 8:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think we need to cover these three topics: date rape, statutory rape, and rape in the Old Testament.
I once attended a lecture on the Old Testament on one of the prophets where the professor explained the symbolic language of rape in the Old Testament. This is my religion he was teaching about. Uh-huh. Ok. How do you stomach that one?
With all this talk about religion these days, I think we need to dig a little deeper on Alternet. The subject of rape is as all old as the hills, and we need to get to the root of it.

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Why are men still joking about...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Orwells_nightmare on Jun 30, 2006 8:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...male rape? Female rape is considered a heinous crime, and rightly so, but male rape is considered a punchline. I wonder how the unreported female rape stats measure up again the equivalent male stats, considering the victim is liable to end up part of a Jay Leno monolgue about dropping soap and prison showers?

I also wonder about Third World rape statistics, where I'm told there's a belief among some cultures that the cure for HIV is to have sex with a virgin child.

» Ever seen Heavenly Creatures? Posted by: eastcoker

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A Woman's Response to Ignorant Sheeplepeeple
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Posted by: sigridfroid on Jun 30, 2006 8:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
please see my response to the doubting sheeplepeople above (shoulda posted it as a stand-alone comment.)

i agree that male-on-male rape is also often joked about in a dismissive way and that is BAD and WRONG. but male-on-female rape is rarely joked about, or even discussed at all in polite company. at most a simplistic "rape is wrong" scenario occasionally appears in the popular media which doesn't speak truthfully to the issue at all.

anyway, let's all take a deep breath and quite name-calling and work together to help minimize rape (i'd say "eradicate" but i am not THAT idealistic anymore...)

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This article is a joke
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ghoulman on Jun 30, 2006 8:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus H. Christ with a pogo stick up his arse ... is all you have to prop up your premise for this article some twat from the University of Nairobi and a TV show???

If you think this is somehow helpful to women devestated by rape, you're living in a bourgeois bubble honey.

It's a drama!!! Note, a great drama that depicts people well, instead of just presenting misogynistic sexbots to objectify, brainless house whores, or skinny teenage sluts ... because all teen girls are sluts just looking for it right? Well, that's what all the "entertainment media" presents women as all fucking day... Rescue Me does better and it's a huge mistake to judge it as the usual American propoganda and not a sincere work of drama.

Note... lots of women have rape fantasies, just like other sorts of odd secret sexual desires. Women are human beings, sexual beings, Rescue Me is honest about that (the characters in question do know and love each other).

You're making this whole issue up. It's crap.

Did you bother to mention the Harvard University Dean who said women aren't good at science and math? A little more serious and has real affects in, you may not be aware of, reality. Better than digging around for a quote by some jerk from a far, far, more sexist culture half a world away.

Terrible article. Stop drinking. It will help.

» FINALLY... Posted by: Scientz
» RE: This article is a joke Posted by: joaniede

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Rape fantasies
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Orwells_nightmare on Jun 30, 2006 8:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd like to know who started this bullshit myth. I don't believe women have rape fantasies. It plays into that 'no means yes she wanted it really' crap. There's no such thing as a female rape fantasy, because it seems to me that by its very definition, if it's a fantasy, it's not rape. It's a submissive sex fantasy. There's a difference.

In turn, guys might have domination fantasies, but not rape. I would hope anyway. I don't think I'd like to know any guy who had serious rape fantasies.

It seems like part of the traditional hunter-prey attitude, where sex is something men chase and women give up. That needs to go.

» Submissive sex fantasy Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: Submissive sex fantasy Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» the Honey Trap? Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: the Honey Trap? Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» Guys should do the chasing! Posted by: eastcoker
» Actually... Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» RE: Actually...you're all wrong Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: Actually...you're all wrong Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: ape fantasies Posted by: saywhat?

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Rape In the Age of Porn
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Posted by: Stonecutter on Jun 30, 2006 8:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most--but by no means all--civilized men who've been well educated and informed by their own maturation can understand and condemn forceable rape, the kind perpetrated in the 1988 film "The Accused" (a movie eminently worth seeing again just to ponder these issues). We realize it's a barbaric and criminal act of power and brutalization, even as many younger men immersed in the hunt for the next "score" are not at all clear where the lines should be drawn in their so-called "normal" sexual relationships with "modern", excessively seductive, "emancipated" women.

On "The Sopranos", Dr. Melphi's sexual assault in a parking garage stairwell was depicted with a verisimilitude that's consistent with violent rape as it's come to be recognized, however begrudingly, by our "male-dominated" society, our creative media and our courts. In the French film "Irreversible", probably unknown to most Americans, there's perhaps the most realistic, vicious, prolonged rape scene in the history of cinema. I'd like to believe that most men, straight or gay, would be shocked and repulsed by the intense violence of this scene, despite it's dark appeal to common male fantasies of enforced domination and sexual subjugation. Yes, rape is rape, even more unequivocally when accompanied by anti-erotic coercion and violence. There are soild arguments, social, cultural and legal, to validate it's prohibition from civilized society.

Having affirmed this rule of law and civility, I would argue that for younger men living in the "Age of Porn"--the immersion of mainstream American culture in the joys and horrors of omnipresent porn, readily accessible in 1000 flavors by the click of a mouse, much of it free, the core of most visual advertising, visible 24/7 in the grossly seductive, whorish apparel of most teenage and even pre-pubescent girls in and out of school--the ability to clearly and quickly discern the limits of consensual or "rough" sex, relative to obvious forceable rape, or to righteously condemn mildly pressed but non-violent sex as still "rape" because the girl may later have second thoughts, may be impaired by the erotically saturated atmosphere we're all breathing, and the torrent of mixed signals young hormone-driven men receive about the "rules" of sexual behavior, and the relative threshhold of "enjoyment" for women.

When it comes to sexual standards, America is still the schizoid it's been for 400 years, ever since the Puritans drove all their sane, well-adjusted neighbors out of Massachusetts. We bathe in cultural and media sex, swim in it on the Web, but in private we still often repress and inhibit its discussion, natural expression or exploration. In the paradoxical era of extreme Christian fundamentalism that has erupted in tandem with, or in reaction to our porn-charged culture, attitudes among the young toward sexual contact have shifted dramatically from the days when getting to "first base" meant kissing on the lips after the third date, and "Where The Boys Are" was the climax of sexual conquest movies.

Now, fellatio is dispensed by many "good" young girls at booze-fueled parties with the same insouciance that accompanied tongue-kissing 40 years ago. A BJ is the new "first base", and more often than parents of young females want to contemplate, this is no longer considered extraordinary, but more of a basic expectation (My teenage sons have been eyewitnesses to this reality). A girl who is saying "yes" to the porn-fueled mind and raging hormones of a young male, consensual partner either through words, behavior, dress or a combination of these signals, may have a rocky ride if she suddenly, instantaneously says "no" after the train has left the station. Rape is still rape, but to a new, younger generation of men and teenage boys, in a time when misogynistic porn and rap are as accessible as fast food, it just may not be as repugnant as it should be.

» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» Excellent analysis Stonecutter Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Stonecutter
» As a matter of fact,... Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Kym525
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: ape In the Age of Porn Posted by: Stonecutter

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Not Just Men
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Bab5nutz on Jun 30, 2006 8:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of the people who have been hardest on rape victims, in my experience, have been women.
One was my grandmother. She had some rather old-fashioned ideas about women and their roles. If a rape case ever came up on the news, her response was always the same. "she asked for it." She even said that of a case where a six year old girl was abducted, raped and murdered.
I could never look at her quite the same way after that.

» RE: Not Just Men Posted by: mazel
» RE: Not Just Men Posted by: Stonecutter
» RE: Not Just Men Posted by: Trytobeaware

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I haven't seen this show,...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Orwells_nightmare on Jun 30, 2006 8:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but in all fairness, maybe they did it because they intend to dramatize the aftermath later on down the line. Maybe they WANT to start a debate on the subject. Just a theory.

I don't support gratuitous sex and violence on television, but if we start demanding they turn away from the traumatic, the offensive or the controversial, I think that's dangerous.

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I watch the show regularly
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Posted by: epski on Jun 30, 2006 9:16 AM   
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I don't miss an episode. Barely watch TV, but this is one show that is unabashed about showing the chaos of adult lives in a crazy world. While frequently over-the-top, its deeply flawed characters are what make the show compelling, though occasionally a scene like the one in question will air, and it's like watching a car crash. In context, you don't question it at all, but it's still very uncomfortable.

Where were all of you for the practical rape of Maria Bello's character by Viggo Mortensen's in "The History of Violence"? Same deal, IMO.

And of course rape is not funny or cool, etc., etc. I'm not condoning it, but this is like the religious right going off on a movie without seeing it, you know?

» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: Bab5nutz
» RE: I watch the show regularly Posted by: YogiBear

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Touchy subject
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Posted by: joebuck on Jun 30, 2006 9:55 AM   
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I won't delve into true criminal rape where someone is grabbed and assaulted. But in the bedroom that has to be one of the number one fantasies for men and women. I have been with 20 women in my life and the majority loved that role play: forceful, choking, slapping etc. You may not want to admit it but it is the same reason women are attracted to rough guys or bad boys, it is the age old animal kingdom male dominance we started with. Most of these women and it's not like they were trash, just average women I thought were attractive, wanted it to be rougher than I was really comfortable with. I don't want to leave marks or choke someone unconscious because of the possible brain damage or get into cutting etc. Most women are right there if you want to experiment and push boundaries, they may never initiate it but they are very receptive. I am just offering a different viewpoint for the reason the court cases are so hard to prove. It's a mess but I don't mind discussing it though I'm sure most of the whackos on here who go ballistic about every little thing will flip, but if you guys ever did anything to change the world instead of bullshitting up alternet to make yourselves feel better, well maybe there would be change. Until then enjoy the world you allow to exist and get off on bashing:)

» RE: Touchy subject Posted by: pomes
» RE: Touchy subject Posted by: Orwells_nightmare

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Never met a man who joked about raping women
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Posted by: pomes on Jun 30, 2006 10:37 AM   
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Only someone whose main experience with men comes from television could delude themselves into thinking that men actually sit around JOKING about rape. Quite the contrary, I think cracking a joke about raping a woman around a bunch of guys is a good way to get your ass kicked. Men react violently to the idea of a woman being raped, and will want to pummel someone who is even accused of it. Raping women is an emotional hair-trigger issue with men. Men are conditioned socially (and most likely genetically) to protect and defend women, to look after them and see to their needs.

On a personal note, my last girlfriend left me for a man that she claimed months before had tried to rape her. I think, if anything, women are more forgiving of rape than men are.

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leary should be held answerable
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Posted by: wleming on Jun 30, 2006 11:13 AM   
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If Leary is going to sanction rape on his "entertainment" show then why not hold him accountable for what he is presenting. Does he have sponsors and can you write a letter or postcard?

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Look At What's Really F-ed Up, Alternet
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Posted by: fairleft on Jun 30, 2006 11:33 AM   
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It's common for 7-year-old boys to spout "I wanna f--- you" sh-t to 7-year-old girls at the local elementary school. That's not coming from Dennis Leary and some essentially adults-only TV show.

Whattabout the pervasive crap spouting directly out of our MTV, its white and black "women are for sex, and only sexy ones are worth a damn" cult? That's what's really hurting our daughters, and the stereotyping and abuse starts very very young.

» 7 year old boys Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: 7 year old boys Posted by: pomes
» RE: 7 year old boys Posted by: eastcoker
» RE: 7 year old boys Posted by: fairleft

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Women suffering for their men does happen
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Posted by: oldsmobile on Jun 30, 2006 11:36 AM   
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Obviously not defending rape, but I should point out that interestingly in some east-African countries (for instance Uganda) women regularly and perhaps more importantly, voluntarily use substances to dry out their vagina for their husband's enjoyment. One of course can always nitpick on what "voluntary" here means, but this is widely practiced.

Any comments on this?

» RE: misunderstandings happen Posted by: Ghoulman
» Thank you! Posted by: eastcoker

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Actually, men are a joke...
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Posted by: Blue Heron on Jun 30, 2006 11:43 AM   
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And the fact that they are still stuck in a neanderthal mindset proves it now, doesn't it? It is a shame that people would still get all giddy about the topic, but I think this is because men have never had a serious discussion about it. And they should. It is their probem after all. I have no interest in helping them resolve their ape-like behavior issues. And I think they should remain on the fringes of society until they resolve them.

» piss off Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: piss off Posted by: pomes
» RE: Actually, men are a joke... Posted by: anniedine
» Here's my challenge to you . . Posted by: FauxPorteno
» No apologies, no regrets - ever. Posted by: Blue Heron
» Kym Kym Kym . . . Posted by: FauxPorteno
» Oh Poor Faux . . . Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Actually, men are a joke... Posted by: MatthewSavage
» the feminist left Posted by: sheeplepeeple
» Well... Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Well... Posted by: pomes
» All points of view welcome here Posted by: Blue Heron
» Didn't ask for your advice Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Well... Posted by: Kym525
» Links Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Links Posted by: pomes
» RE: Links Posted by: Kym525
» My problem is still with men Posted by: Blue Heron
» interesting Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Links Posted by: FauxPorteno
» RE: here here Posted by: saywhat?
» RE: Actually, men are a joke... Posted by: Logic's Edge

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Why are men still joking about rape?
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Posted by: lisebrouillette on Jun 30, 2006 12:09 PM   
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Why ARE men still joking about rape?

Because opinions and mentalities have not changed.

The social context HAS changed, thanks to some forward-thinking men and women and ground-breaking medical break-throughs such as contraception. It does make an immense difference that women be not tied by the fear of pregnancy, that they need not stay in an abusive relationship for lack of anywhere to go or any means of supporting themselves.

But the ways of thinking have not changed. A shockingly high number of people still think that a woman getting raped provoked it, that a woman getting beaten deserved it, that a wife being scorned was unloving and cold, that a mother whose child gets killed was neglectful and unfit - and that a successful career woman does it at the expense of her family and that she's pushy and selfish. A shockingly high number of people stil believe that a woman is nothing but an extension - someone's mother, someone daughter, someone's wife, someone's employee, but never someone herself. She has no needs, no wants, no separate personality. When she says 'no' it really means 'yes' or 'maybe'. Who cares what she really thinks anyway, right? That is, If you admit she can think!

And THAT'S why it's still such a big joke that a woman should dare to 'pretend' say no: because for too many people, whatever a woman claims is STILL not to be taken seriously.

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It's a freaking TV show
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Posted by: Entheogenic on Jun 30, 2006 1:27 PM   
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I've never seen this show, but I feel that I have to comment.

It's a TV show. It's not "glorifying" rape, or making a "rape joke." It's portraying, as part of dramatic entertainment, something that actually happens every day. The fact that it DOES actually happen is a damn shame, but that doesn't change the fact that it does happen. Women get raped, sometimes by their husbands, and society does have to deal with it. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean we can or should just ignore it and hope it goes away--look at the discussion and dialoge that this scene has produced; it's brought attention and awareness to the issue, which perhaps was the intent.

As far as the female character "liking it," again I didn't see the scene so my comments are limited, but I'd imagine that that happens too. Women (or man) doesn't think she (or he) wants to have sex, partner forces sex, she (or he) enjoys it contrary to expectations. Yes, sex shouldn't have been forced in the first place, but I think saying that a scene like this implies somehow that the producers and actors want to imply that "rape is an acceptable way to deal with female insubordination and women often enjoy rape" is just plain silly. It's a work of fiction, portraying events that are realistic. Get over yourselves.


Entheogenic

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Some of the psychological factors in rape and abuse
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 30, 2006 2:04 PM   
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I'd just like to take a step back and make a list of points:

Rape during wartime: Psychological effects include humiliation of both men and women, even including racist notions of 'changing the race' - this is being played out in the Sudan as we speak. While a lot of porn is indeed disgusting and abusive, the issue of rape predates video technology.

The parents of convicted rapists: This is worth studying. I'd guess that the parents were more likely then not a passive, submissive woman and an aggressive, violent man. Women in such situations have a tendency to take out their submerged aggression on their children, and male and female children of such relationships have a tendency to behave like their parents - the male children end up hating women, and the female children end up hating themselves. This is a not a value judgement, it's a pyschological effect, i.e. 'the cycle of abuse'.

Recovery from rape: this is the most difficult issue and is the real reason why rape penalties should be vastly increased - I'd say a ten-year minimum is a good idea, especially since DNA evidence is so conclusive these days. In today's world, an eighteen-year old girl with a stash of illegal drugs can serve ten years, while a rapist is often released after six months (on parole). This is so screwed up!

It's also worth noting that parents or guardians who abuse children in sexual or other manners tend to be strict authoritarians, their motivation being that they don't want the child to reveal the abuse. How did people ever get so messed up? Their parents are the primary culprit, I'd guess, as in Columbine. It makes one wonder if parenting licenses shouldn't be a requirement for having children.

Finally, violent self-defense skills should be learned by all women (and men as well), and that includes anti-passivity and situational awareness training. I'm rather doubtful of the notion of 'rehabilitating' rapists and child molesters - in such cases, violent self-defense is entirely appropriate. Go for their eyes, in other words - maybe that old Chinese notion of punitive mutilation wasn't such a bad idea. A blind rapist is an ineffective rapist. Watch out for the "Monster" syndrome, however.

Sure is a depressing topic - and I didn't even get to prison rape as a deliberate punishment strategy. Humor? It's just too dark to laugh about... though they do say that laughter dispels evil. Can you say "Bobbit" without laughing?

» RE: I disagree with violent self defense Posted by: thoughtcriminal

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rape can be funny
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Posted by: folkdude01 on Jun 30, 2006 3:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is a portion of one of Carlin's classic pieces:
"Ohhh, some people don't like you to talk like that. Ohh, some people like to shut you up for saying those things. You know that. Lots of people. Lots of groups in this country want to tell you how to talk. Tell you what you can't talk about. Well, sometimes they'll say, well you can talk about something but you can't joke about it. Say you can't joke about something because it's not funny. Comedians run into that shit all the time. Like rape. They'll say, "you can't joke about rape. Rape's not funny." I say, "fuck you, I think it's hilarious. How do you like that?" I can prove to you that rape is funny. Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd. See, hey why do you think they call him "Porky," eh? I know what you're going to say. "Elmer was asking for it. Elmer was coming on to Porky. Porky couldn't help himself, he got a hard- on, he got horney, he lost control, he went out of his mind." A lot of men talk like that. A lot of men think that way. They think it's the woman's fault. They like to blame the rape on the woman. Say, "she had it coming, she was wearing a short skirt." These guys think women ought to go to prison for being cock teasers. Don't seem fair to me. Don't seem right, but you can joke about it. I believe you can joke about anything. It all depends on how you construct the joke. What the exaggeration is. What the exaggeration is. Because every joke needs one exaggeration. Every joke needs one thing to be way out of proportion. Give you an example. Did you ever see a news story like this in the paper? Every now and then you run into a story, says, "some guy broke into a house, stole a lot of things, and while he was in there, he raped an 81 year old woman." And I'm thinking to myself, "WHY??? What the fuck kind of a social life does this guy have?" I want to say, "why did you do that?" "Well she was coming on to me. We were dancing and I got horney. Hey, she was asking for it, she had on a tight bathrobe." I'll say, "Jesus Christ, be a little fucking selective next time will you?"

Now I've probably got the feminists all pissed off at me because I'm joking about rape. Feminists want to control your language. Feminists want to tell you how to talk. And their not alone. Their not alone. I'm not picking on the feminists. They got a lot of company in this country. There's a lot of groups, a lot of institutions in this country want to control your language. Tell you what you can say and what you can't say. Government wants to tell you some things you can't say because it's against the law. Well you can't say this because it's against the regulation. Well here's something you can't say because it's a secret. "You can't tell him that, because he's not clear to know that." Government wants to control information and control language, because that's the way you control thought...and basically that's the game their in. Same with religion. Religion is nothing but mind control. Religion is just trying to control your mind, control your thought, so their going to tell you some things you shouldn't say because they're sins. And besides telling you some things you shouldn't say, religion's going to suggest to you some things you ought to be saying. Here's something you ought to say first thing when you wake up in the morning. Here's something you ought to say just before you go to sleep at night. Here's something we always say on the third Wednesday in April after the first full moon in spring at four o'clock when the bells ring. Religion is always suggesting things you ought to be saying. Same with political groups of all kinds, political activists, anti- bias groups, special interest groups, are going to suggest the correct political vocabulary. The way you ought to be saying things, and that's where the feminists come in..."

» RE: rape can be funny Posted by: pomes
» RE: rape can be funny Posted by: saywhat?
» Yep Posted by: eastcoker

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Rape damned well is not a joke. But this article is.
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Posted by: Sojourner on Jun 30, 2006 5:16 PM   
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The question is: How many politically incorrect references can be found on some superficial tv soap opera?

The tone of this piece presupposes that no females are involved in the creation of “Rescue Me” stories. I just waded through miles of slick graphics and tv BS to locate the names of the writers.

All I found was the soap opera crap that I have diligently avoided for the last half dozen years by turning my tv into a dvd player, where I choose the films I watch.

I could not find out who wrote the show in question, because it seems that tv these days has “co-creators.” The only previous use of that term I heard had to do with the relationship of God and man. (I assume that reference doesn’t disturb political correctness since we all know God is a she, right?)

However, I think it is up to the writer of this article either to demonstrate that no females were involved in the script or to change the title to “How can men AND WOMEN. etc.”

I'm sick and tired of being your scapegoat just because it is convenient. You're beating a dead horse, long dead, and long gone. Get real.

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Precedents
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Posted by: YogiBear on Jun 30, 2006 5:42 PM   
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I was a fan of the show, but found the last episode distasteful -- the rape scene of course was a big turnoff. Ususally it takes a show several seasons before the plots get ridiculous in an effort to retain viewers, but Rescue Me has already gone over the edge.

But there is plenty of precedent for rape in TV and film, virtually every James Bond movie ever made includes a scene where he forces a woman down, but then she gives in to him for casual sex.

I'm sure women exist (I actually know one) who like men to be forceful, and they probably ruin it for the rest of women because then men who meet them or hear about them expect everyone to be like that.

I believe that rape is likely under-reported, male rape possibly to an even larger degree because the stigma is worse. Our society treats victims of sexual assaults as if they are pariahs, as if sexual assault is somehow worse than murder. Notice we have a national database and notification system for sexual offenders, but not for people who have actually killed people (with no rape involved).

Furthermore, many news organizations' policies of not reporting names of victims of sex assaults might seem like doing them a favor, but it might also be helping to perpetuate the stigma. That they're women. They're weak and need protecting.

The scene was pretty clearly rape. That Dennis Leary and the other producers can't see that goes to the heart of the real issue.

» mind conditioning Posted by: FauxPorteno

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no it is "who do you believe?"
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Posted by: saywhat? on Jun 30, 2006 8:59 PM   
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the feminists or the fundamentalists? read again

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saint
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Posted by: glorybe on Jul 1, 2006 1:46 PM   
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The so called feminists are a large part of the rape problem. Anybody who has been in this world for a few decades surely has known a woman that falsely cried rape. False accusations may even be more numerous than the act itself. Yet after a man is destroyed by false accusations just try to name a single instance where a female has received a life ruining prison sentence for her lies. Colby Bryant may be the ultimate example as are the boys on the Duke Hockey team. Just why is it that these females aren't serving a life sentence for false accusations? The issue is so contorted maybe the courts need to stop trying rape cases completely.

» RE: saint Posted by: Uncategorizeable
» RE: saint Posted by: Durga_is_my_homey
» The statistics bear you out Posted by: DavidByron
» RE: The statistics bear you out Posted by: Durga_is_my_homey

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muzzle on a sandwich.
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Posted by: markedwmn on Jul 1, 2006 2:57 PM   
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It's funny how I read your comments on how horrible it is that men joke about rape and how horrified you are by the act, and I don't really feel supported or warmed. I really just feel annoyed and tired.
I was raped twice in my life, 2 1/2 years apart, both times in medium sized Midwestern town, both random attacks by strangers, one violent by a borderline retarded young man one month off of probation for armed robbery, and the next by a serial rapist whose gig included crying and begging my forgiveness.
I have spent a lifetime ruminating on those several hours of my life that I spent with a total strangers dick in me, and I really still have profoundly little to say about it. Other than it is very simple, and very complex. I don't hate men. I don't particularly hate my attackers. I have hated that my life is "like this", that I am the person who has this in her past.
I trust my own meter on what really crosses the line on this matter. Certain ideas and pieces of news make me physically nauseous - the idea that I might not have been offered the morning after pill. That anyone would *DARE* to tell me what to do with a pregnancy had that had been the result. And the stories I hear from Africa and other countries where rape is systematically used as a weapon.
But fiction is fiction. Just like porn is porn and not real life. These are things that someone made with the idea that someone else would want to see them. The RESCUE ME plotline is really pretty Greek, with two brothers and one woman. It has about as much to do with rape as a granade has to do with a sandwich.
I don't really think that the media creates rapists. To rape is to ruin yourself, utterly and beyond redemption. It's a pretty big thing, and it wasn't even something that either of the men who raped me seemed to enjoy. It was clear they thought they would. But in the moment, they didn't really know what to do, kept losing their errections and seemed mainly worried about what they were going to do next. It was terrifying, and it was huge, and it did not ruin me, but it did ruin them.
I don't know what to tell all of you people who so desperately want to stop rape to do with your energy. I have never figured it out. But putting a muzzle on hour-long cable shows won't do it, I am sure about that.

» Excellent Comment Posted by: fairleft
» RE: muzzle on a sandwich. Posted by: Jnutter
» RE: muzzle on a sandwich. Posted by: Orwells_nightmare

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I vote for vengeance
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Posted by: sailor50 on Jul 1, 2006 4:38 PM   
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As a 66-year-old female, I fail to understand why most women don't go after their attackers. I would, I always knew I would, and I have warned men that that is exactly what I would do. I may not be as big, strong or fast as a man, but I do have a really good trigger finger and would not hesitate to use it.

» RE: I vote for vengeance Posted by: markedwmn
» Vigilantiism can be funny... Posted by: Blue Heron

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men still dont listen
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Posted by: blorbin on Jul 1, 2006 5:08 PM   
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Why is that whenever women open up about rape the first response of many men is to say men get raped too! WHile I do not contest this assertion, I find it very disturbing that this is often the first and ONLY repsonse. Listen up boys. Get educated and involved. This is not a contest to see who gets raped more. ANd the fact remains that MEN are the ones doing the raping of both women and men.

» RE: men still dont listen Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: men still dont listen Posted by: Orwells_nightmare

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Women rapists.
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Posted by: Dewa on Jul 2, 2006 4:44 AM   
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When I was 4, and my brother approximately 1 or younger, we were violently molested repeatedly by two sisters (our babysitters). Being lucky, when my parents found out they took action, but to no avail, we were quite poor at the time.
But in their investigation they found out that they had been molesting almost all (or all) or the children in our neighbourhood (I'd say almost 20 children between the ages of a few months to 12 years old, some for years). The reason the case didn't move forward as much as it could have was because all but one parent were too ashamed/scared, etc. The only other parent who was for going forward was the single mother of an approximately 4 month old baby.
Now that our family has enough money to actually do something, too much time has passed and the courts wouldn't recognise it. Gotta love the Jutice System, huh?
But, I digress. Although I have been active in anti-rape and pedophilia movements (ever since I realised I wasn't the one with the problem), I have always been confused when it came to the women empowerment side of it, as I too am a female. It turned more so into a fear of adults - but now that I'm an "adult" that doesn't work so well. Although I do fear (well... not so much fear as just feel very uncomfortable) men to an extent, but that's a seperate issue.
But I think if anything convinced me that rape is only about power and being completely fucked up - it was them.

Ps. Sorry about the ramblings to anyone who wasn't interested. But it's part of my belief that to raise awareness on something that it's better to share experiences than just statistics and rantings (although sometimes thoughs are good aswell).

» Probably wouldn't count as rape Posted by: DavidByron

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Guys do cry when the lights are out and no one is around.
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Posted by: CovertRage on Jul 2, 2006 6:02 AM   
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The myth is that men joke about rape because they do the raping. The truth is men control the statistics that bely that many a man has endured the experience of having been overpowered sexually. The psychotic crassness aside, machismo is rarely without purpose or cause. Rape is a joke for many of the same reason racism is a joke, that sexism is a joke, that poverty is a joke, or that any human frailty is a joke. Laughter is still great therapy when keeping your sanity in the madness known as life under the influence of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. Jokes from blacks about slavery and Jews about Auschwitz alike serve to ease the pain until we can get somewhere to cry. Make no mistake, none of it is funny, but, if we don't joke and laugh, we're subject to kill someone, if not ourselves.

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Forcible rape in Jihad
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Posted by: Progressive on Jul 2, 2006 2:39 PM   
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According to the Sharia of >Islam, all captured women are required to be raped by the male soldiers who have captured them. [A recent historic example of this was in Bangla Desh, when all captured women were confiscated by Pakistani soldiers in order to be forcibly raped.] This custom was enforced by Muh.ammad, and made into an official law by him. The difference between this and United States law is very clear: in Viet-nam United States soldiers were under orders first to rape and then next to murder all captured Viet-namese women [which was quite regularly done], whereas Muslim soldiers are allowed to spare the lives of captured women after raping them. American Christians behave like depraved fiends, whereas Muslim Mujaheddin are generous and humane.

» RE: Forcible rape in Jihad Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Forcible rape in Jihad Posted by: Progressive
» RE: Forcible rape in Jihad Posted by: YogiBear
» Bullshit. Posted by: DavidByron

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rape vs. rough love
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Posted by: owleyes on Jul 2, 2006 2:48 PM   
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There is rape, which is one of the more unpleasant things imaginable. People say they think rape is more about violence than sex, and that's true. But really it's about both of those things wrapped in a package of kleptomania. The rapist is proud of his big balls and brags that he's the kind of guy who, when he sees something he wants, just takes it. He has a hard time with his masculinity; stealing whatever he wants, especially sex, makes him feel like more of a man. If he can make someone cry and beg him for mercy, it only validates his feelings of manliness.
But then there's this other thing which involves sex and violence but it's not rape. It's when someone you love and trust physically manhandles you and kind of roughs you up. That is incredibly arousing for many women. I don't know if this is more true of women who have been sexually assaulted--I wouldn't be surprised if it were. But in any case, it's true. I did not see this television show, but I'm intrigued that someone tried to present a situation where the difference between sexual assault and hot sex was a fine line.

» RE: rape vs. rough love Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: rape vs. rough love Posted by: blueskybaby

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dennis leary is an idiot
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Posted by: angryashell on Jul 2, 2006 8:53 PM   
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rape is not a joke. not for entertainment either. from my understanding he has taken a flippant stance when confronted with the subject of the show. well leary you h ear me knocking? im coming for you. i pray that no woman in your family is ever sexually assalted by a stranger or HER HUSBAND. he and the writers are insensitive idiots and i hope the show gets canceled. i am limited to what i can say here becasue all the words are not lady like nor allowed on this board. i will say that i hope dennis gets cancer of the tounge and dies a slow painful death but only after he loses the use of his penis then the slow death. yes i am that angry.

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I don't think rape is a joking matter
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Jul 3, 2006 12:37 PM   
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In fact, I'm so sick of it being used as a bludgeon against men in every context imaginable that I sometimes wish women would all just move to the other half of the globe and leave us in peace.

» happy to Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: happy to Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» That's a silly argument Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: That's a silly argument Posted by: Orwells_nightmare
» Ok, Dad Posted by: Blue Heron

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Jokes about murder, etc.
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Posted by: chegitz guevara on Jul 3, 2006 6:16 PM   
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People joke about murder, theft, fraud, beating people up, etc. Why should rape be treated differently? We watch tv shows and movies and listen to music about people being murdered or committing murder as entertainment.

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Why can only men rape?
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Posted by: suprmark on Jul 3, 2006 11:09 PM   
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Rape is about sex and control, frequently using violence. A man who has sex with his wife or girlfriend when she doesn't want it is raping her right? There is no marital right guaranteeing sex whenever he feels like. It doesn't have to involve violence - he can just be persistant and 'seductive' and she will decide that ten minutes of sex is less of a bother than however long it will take him to lose interest. If you believe that this case is rape then I have a question for you: why can only men rape? If you do not belive this to be the case then you might as well stop reading as it is not the purpose of this post to figure out exactly what constitutes rape.
Women have sexual urges and they don't always coincide with men's (yes, men don't crave sex 24/7!). But when a man says 'no' does it somehow mean 'yes'? Or is an erection an automatic 'yes'? I have come home from work sick and tired to a horny girlfriend before. I went to bed to sleep, she to play. She was persistant and I was tired so I rolled over and let her have her way. It was about control - I had no control over my erection, and since I would not do the amount of violence necessarry to force her to stop no physical control either. It's a pretty pathetic story and I would not have shared it if not for the fact that no-one else has. Maybe no other man here has, but I doubt that, and I expect that I will be mocked by certain people for sharing it (why are you complaining you are getting so much sex?). I would not really have thought about it in terms of rape, more of an unpleasant experience that comes with living with someone with a different schedule. But when it happens to women many people call it rape (then say only men can rape) and I dislike double standards. Of course if what happened to me was rape then I probably have raped before, which is an equally disturbing thought. I doubt any of the women or men on this forum want to think of themselves as rapists so please ladies and gentlement: 'no' means 'no' not bug me enough and I'll roll over.

» Women joke about rape too Posted by: sisterbluerose

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Simple question
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Posted by: eringhorm on Jul 4, 2006 9:13 AM   
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Anyone know how we can contact the producers etc about this? I saw this episode when it played a couple weeks ago, and it really disturbed me. I feel like the producers need to hear that sort of thing from us.

» RE: Simple question Posted by: YogiBear

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What Joke?
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Posted by: The Glaivester on Jul 4, 2006 2:11 PM   
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When I saw that episode, I thought that this issue would come up. But I don't see why people should be outraged. This wasn't minimizing rape, nor do I see the episode as portraying this as a "reasonable male response." (Tommy Gavin has never been portrayed as a reasonable man).

What I saw was this: Tommy Gavin has always been portrayed as a selfish a**h**e who has serious dominance issues, particularly with his wife (when his wife leaves him again after the death of his son, he focuses on how to get back at her for leaving him more than on mourning his son). Considering that he put his own brother's head through a window for having a relationship with his soon-to-be-ex-wife, he seems to be exactly the sort of person who would rape a woman he considers to be "his" who, in his opinion "got out of line."

As far as his soon-to-be-ex-wife; I don't think she was shown to have "enjoyed it." She just found that she couldn't stop him, and so she basically shut down. I think that she more or less went into denial and convinced herself tafter the fact hat she had enjoyed it and that it was consensual because she couldn't deal with being raped.

In any case, Tommy has previously been clearly shown to be abusive, particularly towards women. So I don't see him as being set up as a role model, or his rape of his wife as being seen as acceptable behavior.

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Re: I found a master! Orwells nightmare is my master. He can pull my chain. Oh no.
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Posted by: Orwells_nightmare on Jul 5, 2006 10:08 AM   
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Yikes, I've never been anyone's master before....Go get me a sandwich.

...err... please? I don't think I'm doing this right.

XD

» Nope, not a master, never mind. Posted by: eastcoker

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Feminist hatred of men is no joke either
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Posted by: DavidByron on Jul 5, 2006 5:33 PM   
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The old "all men are rapists" accusation.
It's time you misandronists got some new material.

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If Ifs and Buts Were Candy and Nuts
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Posted by: blueskybaby on Jul 5, 2006 7:51 PM   
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I wish I could not look at discussions like this, but I can’t make myself.

I found the scene disturbing and find that its great fodder for all people who like to comfort themselves over their stake in the ground on this massive & complicated issue.

What I have no patience for is for people who really don’t have any skin in the game to rant and rave.

I’m envious of the fellow who said frankly that the environment and Iraq were more pressing problems for him and his family. That’s great and I wish I didn’t carry so much guilt & worry that I can’t push it down out of ‘the top 5’ for me and my family.

I’m envious of the simplicity of women who blame rape on the whole of men. If getting rid of jokes that encourage rape would make a dent in the number of rapes that occur, that would be the bees knees. Of course, most men wouldn't make a joke that crass in front of a woman anyway, and yes, humor can be a defense mechanism. The whole "its so wrong its funny just to say it" thing. Like using the word "retard" to your coworker over coffee hours after you cleaned a mentally and physically disabled person's crappy diaper. Most men are not rapists and many men are heroes of mine, and I don’t want them tarnished.

I’m sickened by men who seem to enjoy when women seduce young men, or an accuser is more believable as a liar because it somehow relieves this pseudo-feminist rage against men because of rampant sexual violence.

I’m open to suggestions from those who say mothering or improper mothering is what creates rape-friendly attitudes in men. Please, tell me more of what you think it is I can do?

I’m very much sympathetic to male victims of sexual violence. I think it must be very very tough to weather the damaging attitudes and misconceptions lauded upon any dialogue of rape, let alone to actually get proper healing and understanding.

I’m sympathetic to men who carry any weight with them knowing that some women may be afraid of them because of what other men have done. I am a trusting soul and still am, have lived a lot of places and have spanned several tax brackets in doing so, but I don’t know who is worthy of trust. I’m a nice girl with a decent IQ and usually get noticed for how perceptive I am about other people. Yet I narrowly escaped being penetrated by a guy who lucky for me was willing to take his fingers out of me to “let me go pee first”… and I ran away and escaped. Meanwhile he and his buddy raped my friend after I left. Not only was I shocked to be assaulted but that another guy not only wouldn’t stop it, but would do it too. Want to know about their character? Volunteers at a camp for people with disabilities, who were demonstrably GOOD at working with that special population. An old boss of mine who I worked for, drank with, and intermingled families with for years, makes me ask twice to unlock my car door while coming onto me before letting me out of the car after a late business travel flight. What does a rapist look like, so we can all avoid them?

No one knows, because its not that simple.

It’d be so peachy keen if there was a quick way to get at the root cause of the problem.

Rescue Me’s portrayal is damaging in that there is no redemptive value – entertainment included. As evidenced in this spread of comments, everyone from hardcore-company-line-feminists to men who’d love nothing more than to find out that rape is the #1 desire of womankind can lap at the cracked box of wine the show created.

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It was just a television show.
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Posted by: yoursfaithfully on Jul 6, 2006 12:15 PM   
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These scenes are rare. I admit that I don't watch television anymore, and I don't see many action films, but I rarely hear about scenes like this. As someone else pointed out, A History of Violence had a scene like this, and it was striking (and tacky and crappy, like the rest of the film) because it is, thankfully, pretty rare in modern film. I'll generously grant that it was probably social commentary in AHOV, while that's less likely on Rescue Me, but the fact that we can COUNT how many times rape (male on female) is trivialized in the mainstream media is a very good thing.

In the real world, rape is illegal. Very illegal. If people are joking about rape more and more (I have no idea if this is true), it's because our sharia laws about rape are so ridiculous. Rape is considered the most heinous American crime. I agree that it's awful, but any violent assault is awful. I was robbed 6 months ago by two kids with a handgun. They'll never be caught, and I have to walk or bike past that same spot every day to get to work. But am I gonna chew someone's head off for joking about armed robbery?

Rape is bad, but lots of crimes are bad. Making rape "worse than murder" is right-wing and stupid. If we can joke about murder, why not rape? Is anyone complaining about comedians joking about drive-bys? Young people are killed in inner-city violence every day, but where's the outrage when comedians joke about gang-banging?

This is absurd. If comedians want to joke about rape, let's see you try and stop them. Rape is incredibly illegal. Convicted rapists (granted, most rapes are not reported, and few rapists are taken to trial) are punished for LIFE, while a dude who just beats the hell out of his girlfriend or child (how many comedians joke about their parents beating the hell out of them?) gets probation. Add the word "sex" to any American law, and the penalties skyrocket, and there's no psychological evidence to support that. That's right-wing.

Let's stop American sharia, and then see if I care about a cable television show.

 
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