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Gunning For the World

By David Morton, Foreign Policy. Posted July 5, 2006.


The National Rifle Association has found that its message -- loving freedom means loving guns -- translates into almost every language.
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[Editor's Note: This article originally appeared in Foreign Policy.]

The ad starts with a sober, simulated news report. A news anchor, looking directly into the camera, warns viewers about Brazil's proposed gun ban. "People are misrepresenting the disarmament issue," she says. "It won't disarm criminals." The anchor fades and a news-on-the-march montage begins, highlighting freedom's red-letter days. Nelson Mandela is released from prison. A single man impedes a row of tanks in Tiananmen Square. The Berlin Wall falls. "Your rights are at risk," says the anchor, returning after the inspiring film clips. "Don't lose your grip on liberty." And then, to bring the message home, archival footage runs of thousands of Brazilians taking to the streets, restoring popular rule after more than two decades of dictatorship.

The ad was the first in a series that aired on Brazilian prime-time television last October, when both sides of the country's gun control debate engaged in a heated exchange about the future of gun laws in South America's largest democracy. Proponents of the gun ban proposed outlawing the commercial sale of arms and ammunition to civilians, capping a series of controls enacted in recent years. Unless you were a police officer, a soldier, or a private security guard, you wouldn't be allowed to acquire a gun or the bullets to fire one. The idea was promoted by nongovernmental organizations in Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo, adopted by two presidential administrations, and then delayed for years due to the lobbying efforts of Brazil's arms manufacturers. Finally, it was to come to a vote, the first time any country held a popular referendum on gun laws.

But Brazil's gun poll was never just about Brazil. Brazil was merely the most recent battleground state in a raging global debate over gun rights. A week before the vote, the London-based International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA), which represents more than 500 gun control organizations worldwide, coordinated an international day of support for the Brazilian ban. Demonstrations took place in Britain, Italy, South Africa, and Turkey, among other countries. Passage of the ban, IANSA said, would "reinforce the movement in favor of gun control in other Latin American countries riddled with armed violence, and back the efforts to control private gun ownership at [an] international level."

Polling numbers heading into the last month of the campaign gave gun control advocates every reason to be optimistic. As late as mid-September, support for the proposed ban was running at 73 percent, thanks in part to the backing of the federal government, the Roman Catholic Church, and Globo TV, a large media conglomerate. Yet, when Brazilians went to the mandatory polls on October 23, they handed the international gun control movement one of its most stinging defeats, rejecting the ban by a margin of nearly 2 to 1. The number of civilians in Brazil who legally own a gun is estimated to be only about 2 million. In other words, some 59 million Brazilians voted to preserve a prerogative the vast majority of them will never enjoy.

There was no single reason for the landslide defeat. Many voters voiced their discontent with a government mired in a corruption scandal. Others distrusted the government's pitch to disarm because they distrust the government. But few doubt that the ad campaign made the difference. During the three weeks the ads ran, support for the ban plummeted. "They didn't talk about guns," says Guaracy Mingardi, a São Paulo-based crime researcher affiliated with the United Nations. "They talked about rights."

The idea that owning a gun is a human right as dear as, say, the freedom to protest, was new to most Brazilians. But the rhetoric used in the Brazilian commercials echoed talking points used by local pro-gun groups in Australia, Britain, Canada, South Africa, and elsewhere. Such a line of argument might not exist if not for the National Rifle Association of America (NRA), which had shaped, tested, and honed the message before many of these groups ever existed. The NRA, perhaps America's most powerful political lobby, serves as spiritual godfather to gun groups around the world. Nor does it see its pro-gun agenda as one that stops at the water's edge. Indeed, shortly before the vote, NRA spokesperson Andrew Arulanandam said, "We view Brazil as the opening salvo for the global gun control movement. If gun control proponents succeed in Brazil, America will be next."

The NRA may not be actively funding gun lobbies around the world -- the organization claims its charter prohibits it -- but its influence is felt in much more than dollars. It lends support to the anti-gun control effort at the United Nations. It promotes lines of argument, strategy, and political tactics that others adopt for local use. And, if you contact the association, its representatives will come to explain how to get it done. Although many of the nra's members may not own a passport, their leaders are savvy operators in international politics. For all their red-blooded American pretensions, they have a deep understanding of how globalization works. "We live in a very globalized society," says Thomas Mason, the American gun lobby's top representative at the United Nations. "[Y]ou can't say what happens in Scotland doesn't affect the United States, because it does."

Fight club

From handguns to shoulder-mounted rocket launchers, there are an estimated 600 million small arms in the world, a majority of them in private hands. For many, firearms are one of the great destabilizing elements in the developing world, at the root of conflicts in Africa, banditry in Latin America, and the proliferation of criminal enterprises around the world. In Brazil alone, according to one estimate, violence, most of it gun-related, saps more than 10 percent of the country's gross domestic product.

In the late 1990s, a loose affiliation of development and antiviolence nongovernmental organizations, foundations, and academics came together to curtail the largely unregulated trade in small arms and light weapons. This broad coalition had reason to believe their effort could be a success: Earlier in the decade, they had quickly formed an international consensus against the use of land mines. In 1997, 122 countries signed onto the Ottawa Convention, a global treaty that prohibits the production and use of the explosives and outlines a plan for their destruction. Many of the same groups now sought another killer to vanquish. "What we got at the end of the Cold War was a relief from the obsessive focus on the nuclear threat, and then it became possible to see other threats, like the weapons actually killing hundreds of thousands of people every year," says IANSA Director Rebecca Peters.

On average, 38,000 people are killed in Brazil each year by firearms, principally handguns. It's for this reason that the global gun control movement long considered Brazil a potential showcase for the positive effects of curbing legal access to arms. And, ahead of last October's gun-ban vote, all signs suggested the tide was moving in their direction. Brazil's last two presidential administrations embraced U.N. gun control recommendations and, between 1997 and 2003, the Brazilian congress passed some of the most restrictive gun legislation in the democratic world. Since 2004, a buy-back program collected and destroyed more than 400,000 weapons. The number of homicides in Brazil fell by 8 percent in 2004, the first drop in 13 years, which gun control advocates attribute to the new measures.

This same string of events was at least partly responsible for the NRA's arrival in Brazil. In August 2003, Charles Cunningham, a top lobbyist for the group's Institute for Legislative Action, traveled to São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro to address sports shooting organizations, gun collectors, and other gun rights advocates. At the time, the Brazilian congress was months away from passing a new round of gun restrictions, and Brazil's smattering of pro-gun groups were ill-prepared to do much about it. One of the groups in attendance was the Rio-based National Association of Gun Owners and Retailers, the closest approximation to a Brazilian NRA. The group's membership rolls stood at 1,200 in 1998. But, just five years later, they were down to 400 members. The pro-gun movement, to the degree it existed at all, was dispirited. "We didn't have the necessary number of members to start an efficient campaign of any kind," explains Leonardo Arruda, the group's spokesperson. "So people began to quit."

The group that invited Cunningham and hosted the events, the Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family, and Property, wasn't faring any better. A far-right religious and nationalist organization, its influence lapsed with the demise of Brazil's military dictatorship in 1985. None of Brazil's other pro-gun groups had much of a presence outside shooting ranges and the Internet. Nor did Brazil's arms industry take the ragtag collection of gun enthusiasts seriously, preferring to work directly behind the scenes with politicians.

Reflecting the organizers' underdog anxieties, Cunningham's talks were billed as offering "effective pro-gun strategies in an anti-gun culture." Several hundred people attended in each city. Cunningham spoke about the U.S. Constitution and the history of the nra's growth. Gun owners, he explained, had to be centrally coordinated, yet locally represented in every region. It was important for gun groups to put aside their differences and fight disarmament with one voice. They should remember that disarmament only favored criminals. Gun control, Cunningham told them, is about more than guns: "It is about freedom." The speeches ended in applause.

Some pro-gun activists stayed away from the talks. They didn't want to be seen as anything but homegrown. But it was the first time any sizeable collection of gun groups had gathered together to talk strategy. "It was important because [Cunningham] was kind of a catalyst," says Lincoln Tendler, editor of Magnum, Brazil's only gun magazine. "It made people feel better. If it worked for the Americans, it could work for us."

Spreading the word -- quietly

It hasn't worked for just the Americans, of course. During the last couple decades, the NRA has assisted gun rights advocates in fighting anti-gun legislation in Australia, Britain, and Canada. Australia was one of the NRA's earliest foreign venues, and where it made the biggest impact.

In the early 1990s, as Australia began tightening its gun control laws, the head of the Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia (SSAA) twice visited the NRA's headquarters outside Washington, D.C., to absorb lobbying and public relations know-how. (The NRA picked up $20,000 worth of his travel expenses.) In return, in 1992, the Australians welcomed then NRA President Robert Corbin, who embarked on a three-week tour of Australia and New Zealand. Corbin met privately with pro-gun interests and gave media interviews. Part of his objective was to soften the violent image of the American gun lobby among the Australian public. Still, he was anything but delicate when encouraging Australian gun advocates to adopt hardball political tactics, if they cared about keeping their weapons. "They call us the Evil Empire and they hate us," Corbin said of the NRA's opponents. "But we win."

As was the case in Brazil, the Australian visit helped catalyze the country's gun rights movement, but to a more obvious extent. The Australian group launched its own legislative action institute in 1993, inspired by the NRA's lobbying arm. Australian gun owners even organized the Australian Shooters Party, and in 1995 won a seat in the New South Wales state parliament -- reportedly the only legislator in the world elected solely on a pro-gun platform.

Yet the NRA's Australian excursion did little to endear itself to the Australian public at large. Their link to the NRA has marked the Sporting Shooters' Association for easy criticism, especially in the wake of the 1996 Port Arthur massacre, where a man shot and killed 35 people at a tourist area in Tasmania. "The general public only sees what's in the media," says Jeanine Baker, president of the SSAA's South Australia chapter, "and usually that's the extreme side of the NRA." Baker doesn't believe the NRA is extreme, but "outspoken" -- because it has to be, she says.

Some uneasiness about NRA influence cropped up in Canada in 2001, when some gun owners there became concerned about the association's close ties to the Canadian Institute for Legislative Action (CILA), another gun lobby modeled on the NRA's lobbying arm. In an e-mail to members, Executive Director Tony Bernardo justified the relationship. The NRA, he said, was "instrumental in the formation of CILA" and provides "tremendous amounts of logistic support." He added that, although the NRA's charter prevented it from providing money, "[t]hey freely give us anything else."

The Canadian link is still close. In December, an NRA official was scheduled to offer a "legislative training workshop" at the annual meeting of CILA's parent organization. "How do we protect our rights?" went the promo for the event. "By being more politically active and effective at the grassroots [level]. And who better to show us how than the most powerful lobby group in the world, the National Rifle Association and their Institute for Legislative Action."

The NRA mostly prefers not to talk about its international operations. "[W]e don't discuss the content of private meetings," says the NRA's Arulanandam. And it generally downplays what is by all appearances an increasingly international role. That's hardly surprising, for two reasons. Its members tend to be traditional conservatives, whose views on matters of foreign policy steer toward the isolationist. "We've helped where we can," Arulanandam concedes, "but we're committed to the preservation of rights in this country." Further, the NRA probably understands better than anyone that its muscular, America-first image doesn't go over very well overseas, especially at a time when anti-American feeling runs so high abroad. Jairo Paes de Lira, a São Paulo gun rights activist, says communication with the NRA dried up well in advance of the gun-ban vote, essentially by an unspoken mutual understanding. "We're both on the same side, but we didn't want to give the impression that there was this foreign influence in the referendum," he says.

For this reason, one of the NRA's simplest sources of influence on groups overseas may be as a global pro-gun think tank. Gun rights activists surf NRA sites looking for research, statistics, or leading thinkers who advance arguments that might help their cause. One such advocate promoted heavily on the NRA's Web site is John Lott Jr., an American economist who caused a furor in the United States when he argued that the more guns there were in a society, the lower the crime rate. When his 1998 book, More Guns, Less Crime appeared in Portuguese, Brazilian gun rights activists adopted it as a sort of anti-gun control bible. One enthusiastic gun rights activist in São Paulo bought 1,500 copies and distributed one to each member of the Brazilian congress. Denis Mizne, executive director of Sou da Paz, a São Paulo-based gun control organization, says he has seen many Brazilian pro-gun materials translated directly from the NRA's promoted materials. "To adopt the line and the concepts, it's easy," he says. "You just go to the [NRA's] Web site."

But the NRA has hardly settled for a passive approach in advancing its agenda overseas. Otherwise, it wouldn't need a presence at the United Nations.

Showdown at the U.N. Corral

When Thomas Mason arrived at the United Nations, diplomats weren't greeted by the swaggering cowboy they had expected. The former Oregon state representative is the American gun lobby's emissary to the United Nations and other international forums. Over the past decade, he has developed a reputation as a canny strategist and cordial operator, despite the fact that he works in territory that could only be described as hostile. In a 2004 televised gun debate held in London, NRA chief Wayne LaPierre said that his group's presence at the United Nations should be considered oppositional, not participatory. Again, it's a message the NRA repeats for its dyed-in-the-wool conservative members who view international institutions such as the United Nations with skepticism. Mason's tenacity and diplomatic instincts, however, have made the NRA an active and well-represented player in the world body. The 61-year-old lawyer is always "looming" over whatever is happening, says Peters of IANSA, to make sure he's always part of the process. For his own part, Mason views the NRA's presence as fair play in what he calls a "cultural war." Any symbolic victory for gun control at the United Nations, he says, represents a tactical advantage elsewhere. Letting an international body make even minimal declarations about domestic gun ownership would be one of those victories. "It would delegitimize firearms on a world stage," he says. The opposite, of course, is true as well. That's why the defeat of the Brazilian gun ban, rejected by nearly 65 percent of voters, was a major defeat for the gun control movement. "[I]n the real political world, 65 percent is Pearl Harbor," says Mason.

The NRA's presence at the United Nations dates back to 1996. Believing that international momentum for gun control was picking up steam and that the NRA was being left out of the debate, it obtained official status as a nongovernmental organization at the United Nations. The following year, it helped establish the World Forum on the Future of Sport Shooting Activities. The new group, chartered in Brussels, is an umbrella organization of more than 30 firearm groups and manufacturers from around the world, and has become the primary voice of the pro-gun movement at international gatherings. Mason is now the World Forum's coexecutive secretary (the other slot is reserved for a European).

Of course, adding gun rights advocates to the U.N. crowd -- an internationalist mix of diplomats, activists, and academics -- has led to some cringe-worthy instances of culture clash. At one U.N. conference meeting on small arms, a pro-gun speaker from the Single Action Shooting Society, which bills itself as being "the closest you'll get to the Old West short of a time machine," reminisced about his childhood joys of playing cowboys and Indians. The NRA argument that the wider possession of firearms could actually prevent genocide hasn't gone over well, either. "The World Forum matters because it gives an international veneer to the NRA's activities," says Natalie Goldring, a Georgetown University expert in international security issues who advises gun-control groups. "I think [Mason] thrives on controversy. I believe he thoroughly enjoys the fact that his mere presence in the [U.N.] building is an annoyance to those of us who want to stop the killing."

Naturally, Mason sees his role as being more than a thorn in the gun control movement's side. He argues that the United Nations' position on small arms is currently driven by the myth of a global gun problem. The real problem, he says, is crime (which is, incidentally, the same message the NRA broadcasts in the United States). To that end, the World Forum supports affixing serial numbers to firearms to help trace illicit sales. But if you're not going to disarm criminals, Mason insists, you're not proposing a real solution. The United Nations' goal "is not real disarmament. [It] is, to a great extent, various countries going through an exercise of so-called disarmament that enables them to mollify their liberal constituencies," he says.

Mason's lobbying might have been much less effective if he didn't have an ally in the White House. At the first U.N. conference on small arms in 2001, the head of the U.S. delegation, John R. Bolton, now the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, stunned the hall with a strident opening statement, declaring that the United States "will not join consensus on a final document that contains measures abrogating the constitutional right to bear arms." What emerged from the conference was a diluted, legally nonbinding "program of action." One dropped provision involved the sale of guns to "nonstate actors," which in context might be more accurately called "rebel groups." The greater loss in the view of gun control advocates was the elimination of wording that called upon governments to regulate civilian ownership. "The U.N. agreement was never going to be about banning civilian ownership," says Rebecca Peters of IANSA. "It was going to be about regulating it."

Nevertheless, the hollowed-out U.N. document was one of the biggest victories for the NRA's international agenda. That is, until Brazil.

Outgunned

In the five years since the 2001 small-arms conference, the NRA has refined a message that experts say is working. Few countries have implemented the U.N.-recommended measures. A report released by IANSA last July concluded that the "glass is still 95 percent empty" for gun control advocates. The same was said in a progress report two years earlier. Given the lack of progress, Goldring says the NRA's fears of "gun grabbers" are overblown -- and the gun control movement is on the ropes. "This is like bird flu, right?" says Goldring. "The concern is that it will start somewhere else and end up here [in the United States]. And, by fighting international efforts, they're actually fighting the domestic groups as well.... I wish the NRA were right. I wish we were going to see a groundswell of support. I just don't think it's going to happen."

If you asked people in Bosnia, Botswana, or, for that matter, Brazil, what the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution stands for, most of them would probably have no idea. But the unexpected defeat of Brazil's proposed gun prohibition suggests that, when properly packaged, the "right to keep and bear arms" message strikes a chord with people of very different backgrounds, experiences, and cultures, even when that culture has historically been anti-gun. In fact, the Second Amendment may be a more readily exportable commodity than gun control advocates are willing to accept, especially in countries with fresh memories of dictatorship. When it is coupled with a public's fear of crime -- a pressing concern in most of the developing world -- the message is tailored for mass consumption. "It's a very simple argument, simply phrased," says Mizne of Sou da Paz. "But to answer it, we needed a more complex argument." So, in exchange for nuance, the gun control crowd loses out.

The international gun control movement doesn't lose every round. In the last decade, in Australia, Britain, and Canada -- all countries where the nra was either advising gun groups or aiding them outright -- strict gun control measures passed with strong popular support. Tight controls passed in South Africa, too, though with greater resistance. But, since the nra has become serious about pushing its agenda at the United Nations, the momentum for gun control has stalled. The pro-gun lobby, whether the nra or its locally inspired disciples, works to limit the conversation to crime and illicit trafficking. The gun-control lobby argues that you can't address small-arms violence without restricting legal access to guns. Thus, the great logjam in international firearms talks. Gun control advocates insist they are not interested in circumscribing the rights of gun-owning Americans. "The U.S. is not actually much interest to us," says Peters. "We just want to work in countries where we can actually make progress."

But, when the gun control movement is most honest with itself, it must know that it will never make real progress until the United States becomes a target for its efforts. Around half the world's guns are produced in the United States, and Americans possess, by far, the world's largest private arsenal. For the gun control movement to achieve its real goal -- restricting the global supply of firearms -- the United States must be part of the equation.

So, if the NRA has such a seemingly insurmountable advantage, why does it bother promoting its agenda in the world's distant corners? Because, it will tell you, it has a global market to protect. And, even if it isn't a fair fight, doing battle with the United Nations and promoting fears of a global gun-grabbing conspiracy is a boon for fundraising and publicity back home. By that measure, it may not matter if the NRA wins the next time there is a public referendum on banning guns. It wins all the same.

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David Morton is a freelance writer working in South America.

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The NRA is right about this
Posted by: willie.horton on Jul 5, 2006 3:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any government can confiscate every legally-owned firearm, and prevent law-abiding citizens from purchasing small arms. This will not reduce crime.
Weapons that are already unregistered or illegal will not be found by such confiscations, and people who don't care about violating gun laws will still own guns and use them in crimes.

The "gun control" laws that already exist in the USA illustrate this perfectly:

I own guns, but only legal ones... I don't have any sawed-off shotguns, or illegally-converted machine guns. All my guns were purchased legally through a licensed dealer.
I have two permits to carry concealed weapons, valid in 22 states. I strictly obey the laws governing that permit, and never carry in places (like the post office) or states (like New Jersey) where my permits are not valid.
If one of my guns was suddenly banned, I would immediately get rid of it.

Within a few miles of my home, there are criminals -- already felons, and therefore prohibited from possessing a firearm -- with illegal guns. Some of these are sawed-off shotguns that can easily be hidden under a jacket. These criminals carry guns everywhere, without regard for the law. They feel free to commit crimes with these weapons (and just having these weapons, for them, is a felony).
They don't care about gun laws. Banning any type of weapon, or all types, makes no difference to them: it merely disarms their potential victims.

Face it, folks: the Left, by and large, is on the wrong side of the "gun control" issue. That costs us elections, and therefore costs the country dearly.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: The NRA is talking trash Posted by: hms2004
» RE: The NRA is talking trash Posted by: YogiBear
» Australia Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Australia Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: Australia Posted by: jackbauer24
» RE: The NRA is right about this Posted by: Marion517
» Read the paper, Marion, if you can Posted by: willie.horton
What were the chances? La da dee dee dah.....Scooby Dooby Doo...yah yah yah
Posted by: sheeplepeeple on Jul 5, 2006 3:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nice to see that the rich folks of other countries are getting together to make sure that the political debate centers around divisive moral issues like gun control. That way the po' folks won't be able to use the "gummint" to get into the wallets of the rich.

See, rich folks of other countries have a lot to learn about from the Democrats and Republicans here about how to make divisive moral issues the center of the debate. See, even on this site, everyone is talking about stuff like gun control instead of talking about how to get those millions from the super rich and give it to the rest of us. Mission Accomplished!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

the best
Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 5, 2006 4:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The best gun control measure there could possibly be would be a total worldwide ban on profit from the manufacture and sales of guns. This would be a moral approach to the fact that guns are the prime weapon of mass destruction because they kill more people in the world than any other weapon. Of course the NRA would shoot down any such legislation because they and all gun profiteers are responsible for more deaths than any other group. To kill and be killed by guns is the wonderful "freedom" that the NRA pushes because of the deadly profitable gun industry. I am looking forward to the day when humans will be sane and moral instead of crazy immoral gun pushers.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: the best Posted by: tinman
See the movie "City of God" (w/english subbed over)
Posted by: enzolima on Jul 5, 2006 4:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"In Brazil alone, according to one estimate, violence, most of it gun-related, saps more than 10 percent of the country's gross domestic product."
The Brasillian movie "City og God" exemplifies life for the majority of Braslillians who liive in massive gehttos called favellas. "Favella Rising & Orpheu are also good movies. Brasil is a beautiful country with people who are overall lovely and funloving. But it's a dangerous place to live.

I just got back from Rio last month. I go evey year with my wife (she's Brasillian) and the violence there has been raging non-stop for decades. It's a fact of life and most people have to accept it. Of course, some areas are better tnah others. On some areas of the beach bands of roving prepubescent children, called pevets, hunt wayward strangers walking alone or lookig vulnerable.The pevets rob and sometimes stab and shoot their victims if they put up a fight. It's a strange sight but I've witnessed it several times. There really is no place to hide unless you can afford to hire your own four man security detail. Less than four is a waste of money.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Brasil Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Brasil Posted by: enzolima
From your cold dead hands
Posted by: robmikejas on Jul 5, 2006 6:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wanna be the one...let me be the one...to pry that gun, from your cold dead hands...Guns Guns Guns...Guns Guns Guns...Guns Guns Guns and a river of blood.

Copyright 2006
Richard Wagner/Gary Telgenhof

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Norway Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Norway and Israel Posted by: RON_KING
» Great Britian Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Great Britian Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Great Britian Posted by: babs
» WWII Posted by: Joe Ox
Guns are a problem in the wrong hands.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Jul 5, 2006 6:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The wrong hands are of the rich, super rich and their hirerlings like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld.

If the world wants justice and peace start disarming the worlds armies, navies and air forces. Take the nukes away from the "evil doers" like the rogue government of Bush (his alias the Pakistanies) and Blare, Putin and the Chinese. Has anyone ever asked why the French need a nuclear force? They are not going to be attacked by the Germans, are they?

If a society wants peace, then a society should have fair and just laws to protect the people, provide posperity, clean streets and inexpensive housing and quality education and health care equal to what the rich have now.

Civilian Gun Control is a distraction from the real issue. Yes, the world needs gun control but of governments, not citizens.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» You are correct! Posted by: OranMor
Please explain how anti-gun laws can be enforced on criminals???
Posted by: Pepper on Jul 5, 2006 6:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
" firearms are one of the great destabilizing elements in the developing world, at the root of conflicts in Africa, banditry in Latin America, and the proliferation of criminal enterprises around the world."

Are you trying to say that anti-gun laws would stop all of the above??? How????? Explain please. Crimes with guns went up in Britian, Australia, Canada and in certain states in the US after the banning of legal guns owned by non criminal citizens.

Its our inalienable right to protect our lives and that of our families if attacked. You can't do that with a toothpick if the criminal has a gun.

I used to support gun control until 9-11 when I saw the bombs going off live as they occurred in the twin towers. It was then that I knew my country, my government and my life would never be the same. It was a inside job. How else did those bombs get inside that building with security as tight as it was since 1992 when the first attack took place.

It was then that I fully understood the purpose of the 2nd amendment and its full implications for freedom and liberty. You can't have it without the 2nd amendment as the last resort when all else fails. We are seeing it unfold daily in the news with each new repressive executive order and legislation that is daily stripping us of our Constitutional protections and moving us rapidly toward a dictatorship.

Sorry, but on this one, I agree with the Brazilians. We have the "right' to arm and stand as a free nation of free men and women whether we need to use them or not is another issue. But having that right in place if we ever do, is important. I just keep thinking of Iraq and Afganistan.

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» Happiness is a warm gun Posted by: famouspipeliner
Wrong fear
Posted by: hapibeli on Jul 5, 2006 6:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wrong fear, wrong argument to focus on. Let's discuss the changes necessary to move us forward and NOT waste our time worrying about gun control. Jesus christ! Get OFF the ideas that take our energies away from the issues of single-payer health care, honest voting results, publicly financed campaigns, ending the idea that corporations are persons, media consolidation!!! We have enough to worry about already. Fight about gun control later!!!

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notfree
Posted by: losingmyliberties on Jul 5, 2006 6:46 AM   
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Let's punish the respounceable and not the unrespounceable, I geuss that's justice. Guns, cigarettes, and drugs the goverment dems illgeal not perscription drugs kill. They will let us know when desire to add to the list.

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» RE: notfree Posted by: aonghus36
Logical fallacy of the Left: You can't stop gun violence by attacking guns
Posted by: tanstaafl28 on Jul 5, 2006 7:59 AM   
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This is one of several issues I have always opposed the left on. I have never seen any credible evidence that gun control measures do anything but interfere with legitimate and legal purchase of firearms. They do nothing to curb illegal guns in the hands of criminals (who don't have to go to the local gun shops to get them).

Until the left gets their heads out of their collective asses with regards to their sorry idealistic attempts at "gun control," they will always remain on the losing side of this argument.

The fact is that people kill one another. If guns are not available, tire irons, baseball bats, knives, swords, rocks, hammers, and other "nouns" will be employed.

Guns only become an issue because it seems easier to go after an inanimate object than attempt to change peoples' attitudes about greed, desperation, poverty, and lust for power.

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Tired of the diversion
Posted by: Uncle Crabby on Jul 5, 2006 8:24 AM   
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I am sick of listening to the IRA gun-toting mouthpieces that repeatedly ignore what many sane and moderate people desire. Many, like me, want to see the current bans in place continued, assault weapons, automatic weapons etc., and also would like to see a ban on handguns.

Almost nobody wants to see a total ban on guns. I live in a hunting haven and have no desire to see the sport ruined. I also distrust our government right now and want a well armed militia when the time comes.

I do want to see a handgun ban, and then enjoy watching the death toll, especially in the inner cities of our country go down, as the handguns slowly disappear.

Remember, humans aren’t designed to kill humans. Handguns are designed to kill humans.

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» RE: Tired of the diversion Posted by: sphoenix
» RE: Tired of the diversion Posted by: YogiBear
» gun laws don't work Posted by: knocko
» Correction Posted by: Uncle Crabby
» RE: Correction Posted by: heatherj
» RE: Tired of the diversion Posted by: Dean Cascio
» Reply Posted by: Uncle Crabby
» RE: Tired of the diversion Posted by: tinman
Funny how some trust the police...
Posted by: Juven on Jul 5, 2006 8:34 AM   
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but don't trust honest citizens... We allow the government to have weapons. We allow the police to have weapons. And well criminals don't care if there are laws against owning weapons... So where does that leave an honest citizen when the day comes when self defense it required? Screwed. If we look at history we see that one of the first things a government does when it wants total control is disarms its citizens. One can look at the first gun laws in the United States which were passed after the Civil War in order to insure that the newly freed slaves could not own a weapon. This was done by determing that they could only own weapons that were of familar mark ie- Colt, Smith and Wesson etc. which of course were the more expensive weapons. That in itself reminds me of the anti gunners attacks on so called "Saturday Night Specials". Something else that people seem to forget is that a gun is just a tool. Banning of weapons here in the US would just be one more indication that we are headed to a nice and clean police state...

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» Even funnier than you know... Posted by: heatherj
Protect your right to free speech with your 2nd amendment rights
Posted by: enzolima on Jul 5, 2006 8:50 AM   
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Don't be hasty to beat up on the 2nd just because of the whack jobs and idiots at the NRA. I grew up with guns and stopped using them when I was 14 because I learned first hand that they casue alot of damage. When I enlisted into the Army I used their toys for a while playing games and standing on the DMZ in Korea during the early 80's.
I hate guns. BUT, when I see the direction of our government, the police state we are living in (imho it will get much worse) and the right-wing wahckos all all breeds espousing violence, well, I want to be sure to have access to guns to defend myself, defend my country against our increasingly oppressive and tyrannical government, and to defend myself against the pea-brained right-wing reactionaries who listen to assholes like Hannity, Limbaug, Savage, and the worst of the worst.
We have a right to fight tyranny even if it comes from our leaders and politicians. No one has a right to take away your gun. And when they try, I know, coming from a liberal it sounds wierd, when they come for my gun they will have to pry it away from my cold dead fingers.

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Questionable stats and dictators
Posted by: YogiBear on Jul 5, 2006 9:25 AM   
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between 1997 and 2003, the Brazilian congress passed some of the most restrictive gun legislation in the democratic world. Since 2004, a buy-back program collected and destroyed more than 400,000 weapons. The number of homicides in Brazil fell by 8 percent in 2004, the first drop in 13 years, which gun control advocates attribute to the new measures.

Wait, they attribute a single year's drop to measures that had been in place for 6 years? Better wait for more years' data. Seems pretty inconclusive to me.

the Second Amendment may be a more readily exportable commodity than gun control advocates are willing to accept, especially in countries with fresh memories of dictatorship.

Or countries where dictatorship seems to be brewing (hint hint). Or countries concerned about a US invasion (Venezuela anyone?).

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A Coming Together Left vs. Right
Posted by: Joe Ox on Jul 5, 2006 9:36 AM   
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It may seem less then relevant but the author made such a huge error in thinking early on in the piece that it ruined what else he had to say. He wrote…

“The number of civilians in Brazil who legally own a gun is estimated to be only about 2 million. In other words, some 59 million Brazilians voted to preserve a prerogative the vast majority of them will never enjoy.”
It is a common systematic mistake on the left in drawing conclusions about almost everything, money, healthcare, taxes, education, etc. He states the current gun ownership number and then states that it will remain stagnant w/ no chance for those who do not own guns to ever acquire them. He marvels at the fact that Brazilians voted to preserve a right that, in his words, they will NEVER enjoy. How can he know that? The reason they voted that way is perhaps many of them aspire to become gun owners, and it is far from a stagnant number.

Someone somewhere on this board was proclaiming the drop in gun crime in England, or maybe better said, the rarity of gun crime. The question should be framed in overall crime. v Someone else pointed out that tire irons, knives, and even numerical superiority (3 criminals beat one innocent) can be and are used. It is the rate of all these types of crimes that drops, as guns can be a great equalizer.
At the heart of the perception problem is the virtual animation of guns, while not elevating the status of other weapons similarly from inanimate objects to near prescient things. Implied is that a gun murder is somehow extra bad.

I have visited Brazil many times, from Salvador to Porto Allegre (sp?) and found a palpable sense of danger in most places. However when in Petropolis, never did I sense it. But many Brazilian friends, business associates, cab drivers, service people, etc., have a crime story, first or second hand. As mentioned elsewhere the movie City of God is a great way to get a feel for favella life, the hopelessness of victims and the utter disdain for life of the criminals, as well as the overwhelming near helplessness of the out manned and in many cases corrupt police. To own a gun represents literally the last chance many have of surviving.

I am not sure why it is represented as bad that the NRA would directly or indirectly export their beliefs and principles. Is the left not constantly referring to the “features” of say European life that bring it closer to Utopia in terms of healthcare and taxation? Does the left not cheer the inclusion of foreign law in Supreme Court decisions that are left leaning? If for example the Dutch healthcare system was somehow represented by an NGO and was active in the attempted conversion of our system, would the author object to that advocacy? And why did he not comment on other conclusions that could be drawn from such a swing in public opinion? I cannot see moving a population from 73% in favor of the ban to 66% against the ban in a few months just by employing the tactics of the NRA. I would suggest that the previous poll numbers were absolutely bogus, and the NRA measurably buttressed the efforts of small-unorganized pro gun group(s). Somewhere in that combination lays the truth, and what exactly is wrong with the advocacy in the first place. The NRA did nothing illegal, those who adopted NRA talking points were well informed in doing so and choose to represent their beliefs thusly.

Finally it is interesting to note here that I have read several posts where the left, out of concern for the preservation of rights against the current administration now see gun ownership in a different light. The right got equally concerned with Waco and the Elian Gonzales thing.

If the left could admit that gun laws leave only criminals w/ guns we can sit this aside.

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» Awesome! Posted by: ABetterFuture
The NRA is against background checks and for assault weapons
Posted by: texshelters on Jul 5, 2006 10:00 AM   
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If guns are so good for protection, why are almost all police officers and police departments for stricter gun control than the NRA? The problem is that the NRA wont stand for even gun show background checks or bans on the manufacture and sale of the assault weapons. They use fear and slippery slope logic to get their guns sold.

Many gun control laws that the NRA fights against are tame, they ask for background checks and gun registration. They ask for bans on weapons that would put police and citizens in harms way from high impact, rapid machine gun type weapons. Sure, some criminals will get guns that are banned, and that is why we have laws, the police and other forms of protection. Do you feel safer with assault weapons being producced and no gun registration to check on criminals? The fact is, you are more likely to be shot by someone you know than a stranger with a gun.

The Gun lobby is making millions using fear to sell these weapons to a public they have convinced will be safer with more waepons. Many in the public are too full of fear to see they have been sold a bill of goods.

The real problem is not guns, it's a society where some live rich and others live poor. It's a society that sees violence as an answer and where education is second fiddle to militarism.

Guns are about money, not security. Don't buy into the fear mongering of the NRA. They don't care about you or the Counstitution. The NRA cares about guns and use the gun debate to distract you from the real problems in the United States. They are cowards who hide behind a gun while there is more economic inequality in Amierca every day.

Peace,
Joe Tex

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» Guns Promote Equality Posted by: Joe Ox
the second amendment is for you, lefties!
Posted by: knocko on Jul 5, 2006 10:22 AM   
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the right to bear arms, if you look at what that meant in 1787, means the right of people to have some means of force to protect them against a potentially tyrannical govt. since the left these days, or some in the left, whine that the nation has become "fascist", I am surprised those paranoid individuals don't stock up guns. Certainly those on the right who have yelled for years about a massive tyrannical federal govt have in some cases begun to stockpile weapons. they don't seem so paranoid now, do they, you who believe that the USA has become fascist. BTW, I don't believe we are fascist or are close to it, but I read this all the time on Alternet.

That the Left is for gun control is ironic since they would be the targets, according to the left alarmists, of a fascist coup.

How long do you think Martin Luther King would have been tolerated under Mussolini or the Japanese Imperial regime pre1945?

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» "Needed"? Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: "Needed"? Posted by: texshelters
» Our deep misunderstandings. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Our deep misunderstandings. Posted by: texshelters
» RE: Our deep misunderstandings. Posted by: ABetterFuture
South Africa Murder Capital
Posted by: knocko on Jul 5, 2006 10:38 AM   
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so we have all these guns but our murder rate has declined. but how about the leftist heaven, otherwise known as South Africa, liberated from the violent BAD white people. I'm sure that is a peaceful place because oppressed Africans don't hurt anybody, right?

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How a society where guns aren't needed?
Posted by: texshelters on Jul 5, 2006 10:41 AM   
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The "left" is for some kind of regulation on the numbers of guns criminals and militia and other wackos own, not individual protections on the use of guns. We also want a better society where people aren't motivated to use guns and are educated to know there are other options.

In a pinch, I WILL fight to protect myself and those I love, but I am also working to have a society where guns aren't needed. The "right" would rather protect the right to kill than a raise in the minumum wage, reduce corporate coruption or create an accountable governement that works for all people. So go ahead you gun nuts. Fight for guns while the richest 1% and their government robs you blind.

Yours,
Tex

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Firearm ownership
Posted by: ClintEastwood on Jul 5, 2006 10:42 AM   
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Imagine a world of absolute peace, freedom, and prosperity. Utopia. In such a world, there would be no need for weapons, of any type. We all feel that we are here to make this world a better place for ourselves, as well as future generations. Until that day becomes a reality, we must defend our right to keep and bear arms. I will be glad to give up my arms, when there are no other weapons in existance. That includes police and military. Until that day...

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» RE: Firearm ownership Posted by: tinman
THE RIGHT TO USE GUNS
Posted by: glorybe on Jul 5, 2006 10:43 AM   
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Gun ownership is meaningless. It is the right to use guns that is really the issue.For example when self defence is so severely limited that it is next to impossible to use a gun without going to prison the ability to own the gun means very little at all. The same may be said for places where the gun can not be carried about but must remain at home under lock and key. The idea is for each of us to agree upon rules of conduct and have the obligation to kill any person acting outside those rules of conduct. Whether it is some jerk trying to rape a woman in a parking lot or a drunk endangering other drivers we are all supposed to be about stopping such persons by any means at hand. The simple truth is that we need to apply a lot more on the spot violence to a lot more creeps. That is what America really is supposed to be about.

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» RE: THE RIGHT TO USE GUNS Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: THE RIGHT TO USE GUNS Posted by: tinman
gun control
Posted by: nylaw13 on Jul 5, 2006 12:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am female and a life-long liberal Democrat, and I also live in New York City. I am a professional, in my 50's and have no children. I see no good reason why I should not be able, should I so chose, to own a gun. (I am NOT talking here about 50 caliber arms or assault weapons.) In New York City, it is virtually impossible for anyone not a celebrity or friend of our mayor to obtain a license...even if all one wants to do is shoot at paper targets at licensed ranges. But, celebrities and those who are friends of our mayor find obtaining a license to be not a lot of trouble. Oddly, if one does obtain a permit, one must also buy a gun. Compare Florida, where the gun ownership rules are quite "liberal" - where one can engage in target shooting at a range - and rent a gun for that purpose - and never have to actually own a gun.

But, as for my main point, I will never understand why those who claim to be "liberal" are so willing to interfere with the rights of others. To me, this is a simple civil liberties issue, and so, I side on this one with the NRA...at least here in the good old USA.

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» Not a normal liberal Posted by: NC3
» RE: Not a normal liberal Posted by: enzolima
» RE: Not a normal liberal Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Not a normal liberal Posted by: nylaw13
» RE: gun control Posted by: enzolima
» RE: gun control Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: gun control Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: gun control Posted by: tinman
I lived in many countries with gun restrictions
Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 5, 2006 1:15 PM   
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And gun restrictions work at reducing the overall use of guns in violence. It is equally true that real criminals still get their hands on guns. Just in Canada over the xmas holidays a group of black youths started a firefight in the middle of a shopping street, killing a young woman and injuring others.

The biggest problem today in all societies, is black gun crime. In the UK there are special divisions of the police just for this. It is a sad truism, but black criminals end up killing more black people than anyone else.

The NRA is not the source of gun crime, but the overall presence of guns in society is a problem. The manufacturers need to be more responsible.

As a youth I was a competition shooter. I had access to all sorts of weapons, from automatic to single shot. But I never had a thought to use them for anything more than shooting targets. Intent is 9 tenths of gun deaths.

Cut down on black gun crime, and you will cut down on gun deaths period.

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» RE: Cut down on black gun crime Posted by: vangogh69
Guns and the Law.
Posted by: aussidawg on Jul 5, 2006 2:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll start off by admitting I am pro private ownership of firearms, and I am a person that enjoys shooting firearms. I used to be a hunter, but since my family doesn't enjoy the meat, I don't any longer hunt anything but cans and paper targets. I have no objection to hunting game as long as it is done in a sporting manner and the food derived from hunting is used in its entirety.

A lot of folks talk about gun control. Well, if it worked, that would be one thing, but guns are like alcohol, drugs, or anything else the government tries to control. They write the laws, and the black market takes over what would otherwise be legal. As long as people want guns, they will get them, legally or illegally.

My last point involves government. Although the government possess weapons far superior to firearms, numbers matter. When we have a population that is free to arm itself, just by sheer numbers, the government is held in check. This is the purpose of the Second Amendment to the Constitution. If (or when) the government decides it wants to disarm its citizens (as did Hitler with Nazi Germany), the population is left with no means whatsoever to defend itself. Gun control is the tool of dictators. Further, legally owned firearms are not used in the commission of criminal activity, rather, usually, stolen or illegally imported guns are (AK-47's aren't made in the U.S., rather China and Russia.) Face it, I know this is a worn ot saying, but it is oh so true...When Guns Are Outlawed, Only Outlaws Will Have Guns.

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Guns Are For Feminists
Posted by: BlackthornBea on Jul 5, 2006 5:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a feminist, I've got to agree with the NRA on this one, too. I wish I understood why so few of my fellow feminists are willing to stand up for gun rights. In my opinion, the right to self-defense is a basic human right, one without which all other rights are forfeit. And, let's face it, for most women the most effective way to defend the self is with a gun. A firearm makes a smaller physical presence and relative lack of upper-body strength immaterial and puts you on an equal footing with an attacker. It's not a guarantee of survival--nothing is--but studies have shown you're 4 times less likely to be injured in a violent attack if you resist with a gun over not resisting at all. Sisters, if you want to take back the night, put down that placard and pick up a nice revolver.

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» RE: Guns Are For Feminists Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Guns Are For Feminists Posted by: tinman
Elitist comments
Posted by: gellero on Jul 5, 2006 5:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So the Brazilians voted down gun control, right. Because they're stupid, right? Subject to propaganda by the NRA and its satraps. So let's just get rid of democracy and let people like the writer rule. They know what's best. The masses are stupid. In fact, why bother to vote. Let the 'progressive' elitist rule. The vanguard of the people...........

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» RE: litist comments Posted by: tinman
The NRA hardly stands for anything other than gun profits. There are better gun owner groups
Posted by: NDnative on Jul 5, 2006 8:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that actually believe in protecting the environment for hunters.

http://www.shepherd-express.com/5_18_06/cover.htm

If you want to know the dirty secrets of the NRA, give this article a read. The NRA has become yet another corporate profiteer of mass destruction. I may not be a supporter of gun control but what the NRA is doing is beyond outrage and frankly this madness must stop.

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This is really, really, scary
Posted by: HeroesAll on Jul 5, 2006 8:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Okay, I'll start with my position. I'm not a gun-owner, have never even seen a gun other than in the movies, and I'm kind of worried about the way so many US folks get all frothy at the mouth about their 'right to bear arms'.

Nonetheless, I'm fully alongside the right of people to own a gun that's registered, once they've been through a background check etc, and that they can keep locked up safely at home. Fine by me. I don't want one, because actually having a gun during a home invasion makes it more likely someone will get shot. And, of course, there's all the domestic arguments that end in someone getting a bullet, or kids who play with guns who end up either shooting their best friend of taking it to school or whatever.

But can you pro-gun people please realise that most gun control laws are simply about sensible precautions? They're not about prying anything out of your cold, dead hands, or tying you up and leaving you defenceless: they're just about making sure that nutters don't get their hands on weapons. A sensible thing, I'd have thought. I'd prefer that people with multiple convictions for assault find it hard to get a gun. I'd like to know that when a gunman's arrested, his gun can be traced to find how he got hold of it, and someone punished. I'd like to know, in short, that we're not just arming everyone who wants to shoot at people.

Then there's the fact that many (most? all?) pro-gun people ignore completely: about 90% of the civilian deaths in wars these days happen as a result of small arms. Given that tens of thousands of innocent people in tiny countries in Africa and elsewhere are dying as a result of these small arms, wouldn't it be nice if we could restrict the sale of small arms? Wouldn't it be nice if we could ensure that guns went where they were supposed to go, and not end up in the hands of ruthless murderers? Sure, people determined to kill could always use a machete or a hacksaw or a pointy stick, but guns make killing easier. More guns, more deaths. Less guns, less deaths.

So instead of trying to turn the argument into one about fundamental freedoms and rights to defend yourselves against nefarious criminals, how about thinking of ways to keep guns out of the hands of criminals? Make it hard for them. Hong Kong does pretty well. It's not that they don't have crime or murders, but they have very few guns, so criminals have to make do with old-fashioned, less efficient, means of threatening people.

As for equating guns with free speech, well, that's just kind of wacky. And scary. And it really, really, really, looks as though US citizens are frightened of so many things: terrorists, criminals, governments, liberals, foreigners, ... You name it, they're afraid of it, and need guns to help them feel less threatened. There's very few countries that have the obsessive love for guns, and the panicky fear that someone wants to take their guns away, that seems to exist in the US.

Let the flames begin...

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» RE: This is really, really, scary Posted by: BlackthornBea
» Scary? Posted by: YogiBear
Hitler
Posted by: karyse on Jul 6, 2006 7:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've only one thing to say: The first thing Hitler did was ban firearms in the population.

Well, may two things to say: a government that fears an armed population, is not a government I want in power.

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» RE: Hitler, AND A BIG Posted by: SamFox
NRA sent 120,000 guns to the UK during WWWII
Posted by: Dean Cascio on Jul 6, 2006 7:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The NRA members sent 120, 000 guns to England during WWII. It’s a fact look it up. Before the LEND LEASE ACT was passed. The poor limies had their butts kicked right out of Europe and lost all/most of their guns and equipment. They were bankrupt and American industry was not up to a war time production footing yet.
The NRA membership magazine is called The American Rifleman. The English took out ads in the American Rifleman asking for Americans to send rifles to the UK. The NRA members sent 120, 000 guns to England during WWII.

The gun laws in the UK were first designed to control the Irish. The English have never had a problem with practicing genocide against unarmed people. It makes a “jolly good show” when your victims can’t fight back.

All of you commies out there in cyber space love unarmed victims. Just remember the Minutemen KICKED ASS on the redcoats 1776, and the Afghani’s KICKED ASS on the red Soviets. What can we learn from this history lesson? Armed populations always kick ass on you commie pinkos.
Dean

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Arm the people
Posted by: Burton on Jul 7, 2006 8:10 AM   
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Proponents of the gun ban proposed outlawing the commercial sale of arms and ammunition to civilians, capping a series of controls enacted in recent years.

Gun control comes down to:

1) Disarming the people.

2) Giving the state a monopoly on violence.

How is this liberal?

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» RE: Arm the people Posted by: Dean Cascio
» RE: Arm the people Posted by: tinman
Gee, ALmost Makes Me Want to Re-join the NRA
Posted by: heatherj on Jul 8, 2006 7:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Which I had left because they have too much of a record of compromising on Second Amendment rights, having been in favor of every federal gun control law that has ever been passed. Inspirational, almost.

Remember, our constitutional rights DO NOT come from government. They are rights we possess merely by being born human upon this Earth. Self-Defense, as guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment is one of the most important of these rights, and a personal firearms ownership is the most effective way to defend oneself against crime or tyranny.
Self Defense IS a Human Right. Therefore, owning the best gun your pocket and desires allow for IS a Human Right.

(Or would you rather have things the way Britain & Australia do? Pass gun control, crime skyrockets. Britain is even licensing knives, now. You can't own a kitchen knife over 5 inches long, without it being registered. My steak knives are that long!)

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» The 9th Posted by: YogiBear
How Gun Control Really Works
Posted by: heatherj on Jul 8, 2006 11:29 PM   
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Read it, folks.
http://www.davekopel.org/2a/foreign/kenya-uganda.pdf

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Notice the pattern between gun mania and economic, environmental, and security instability
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 9, 2006 6:38 AM   
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being proposed by Corporate America and Bigger Government? Do any of you notice that the NRA is a big supporter and contributor of:

1. Tax cuts for the uber-wealthy (and Grover Norquist is a board member of the NRA)
2. "Free" Trade" and selling America to China, Mexico, etc ... Most weapons are imported from China than are manufactured here in the U.S.
3. Opening up more land to hostile commercial takeovers.
4. Endorsing "abortion" bans and funding terrorists like Terry Randell.
5. Wars in Iraq, Afganistan, and even Iran while bashing those who believe in peaceful and harmless solutions.

I can name more but at least you get the idea. The next time you see the Taliban in Afghanistan or insurgents in Iraq armed with AK-47s, you can thank the NRA for its role in corporate profiteering. A society that is economically poor will continue to be too paranoid about losing guns even when they're losing their real freedoms and securities and surrendering what's left of them economically to the big business devils.

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It all comes down to...
Posted by: bobframe on Jul 11, 2006 2:06 PM   
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Whether you hate guns or love them it comes down to one thing:

Those who have the guns make the rules.

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