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The 9/11 Faith Movement

By Terry J. Allen, In These Times. Posted July 12, 2006.


Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, nearly half of all Americans believe the Bush administration is covering up its involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

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Americans love a conspiracy. According to a May 17 Zogby poll, 42 percent believe the U.S. government and the 9/11 Commission are covering up what really happened on September 11, 2001.

There is something comforting about a world where someone is in charge -- either for good (think gods) or evil (think Bush insiders plotting 9/11). Many people prefer to believe a Procrustean conspiracy rather than accept the alternative: Life can be random, viciously unjust, and meaningless; tragedy and joy alike flow from complex combinations of good and bad intentions, careful plotting, random happenstance and bumbling incompetence.

Conspiracy hypotheses often consist of a vast pile of circumstantial evidence shaped into a seemingly coherent whole with the strong glue of faith. Debunk one or even many allegations and the pile still stands, impressive in its bulk and ideological coherence. If size were all, it would convince Pyrrho himself.

Scientific theories, on the other hand, depend on interlocking chains of evidence: The integrity of the whole relies on the soundness of each link. Break any one and the theory founders.

The 9/11 conspiracy is a classic example of a faith-based pile hypothesis. Its proponents cite a mountain of evidence to conclude that the U.S. government perpetrated the 9/11 attacks for its own traitorous ends, chiefly staging "a new Pearl Harbor" to rally support for an invasion of Iraq.

I spent months as a researcher conducting a fact-by-fact dissection of a few key aspects of this hypothesis. I approached the project knowing that U.S. cabals had previously concocted casus belli to drive public support for war: the Gulf of Tonkin for Vietnam, incubator babies for the first Gulf War. And clearly from its early days, the Bush administration had lusted for war with Iraq.

But the hypothesis that it planned and executed the 9/11 attacks is just not supported by a chain of evidence, nor do the facts support the conspiracists' key charge that World Trade Center buildings were destroyed by pre-positioned explosives. Structural engineers found the destruction consistent with fires caused by the jet liner strike; that temperatures need not actually melt the steel but that expansion and other fire-related stresses would account for compromised architectural integrity.

When David Ray Griffin, a theologian by trade, said it was "physically impossible by laws of physics" for the planes alone to have brought down the towers, I asked what engineers had confirmed that. "I haven't talked to any because they would be too afraid to tell the truth," he said. "How would you be able to protect your family if you were to accuse the government?" he asked, accusing the government.

Many conspiracists offer the collapse of WTC Building 7 as the strongest evidence for the kind of controlled demolition that would prove a plot. Although not hit by planes, it was damaged by debris, and suffered fires eventually fueled by up to 42,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored near ground level. Griffin cited as evidence of government complicity that the building's sprinkler system should have, but didn't, put out the fires. But the theologian did not know and had not considered that the collapse of the towers had broken the area's water main.

Another conspiracist, Alex Jones, writes on his web site, "Larry Silverstein, the owner of the WTC complex, admitted ... that he and the NYFD decided to 'pull' WTC 7." (Leave aside how unlikely it would be for the government to include Silverstein in a treasonous conspiracy, or that the NYFD was in on it, too.)

Silverstein's actual quote: "I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were going to be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

Jones continues: "The word 'pull' is industry jargon for taking a building down with explosives." In fact, a Nexis search for a three-year period fails to find one American reference to "pull a building" without the preposition "down" when referring to intentional destruction. An alternative explanation would be that given the lack of water and the number of injured and missing firefighters, the NYFD decided to pull workers from Building 7 to concentrate on search and rescue at the fallen towers.

In the end, this kind of undermining of individual "facts," although relatively easy, is irrelevant for those who base their beliefs on piles rather than chains of evidence.

But the work should be done. Pile conspiracies can be dangerous. Those who deny that HIV is responsible for AIDS, for example, have contributed to unnecessary infections and deaths.

And the 9/11 conspiracy hypotheses distracts from the growing chain of evidence documenting how the Bush administration actually manipulated this country to war on a train of lies riding tracks of fear -- cynically using the bodies of the 9/11 victims as fuel.

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Terry J. Allen is a senior editor of In These Times. Her work has appeared in Harper's, The Nation, New Scientist and other publications.

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Scholars for 9/11 Truth
Posted by: calvinswift on Jul 12, 2006 12:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» wing nut theory Posted by: prod
» RE: wing nut theory Posted by: ZombyWoof
» RE: FACTs Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: FACTs Posted by: kogwonton
» RE: FACTs Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: FACTs Posted by: kogwonton
» RE: FACTs Posted by: FedererFan
» RE: FACTs Posted by: rverne8
» Bush's Involvement Posted by: Happy
» RE: Bush's Involvement Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: Bush's Involvement Posted by: babs
» Marvin Bush Posted by: brunowe
» yeah Posted by: peritonlogon
» RE: wing nut theory Posted by: rbentley
» RE: wing nut theory Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» ReOpen911.org Posted by: calvinswift
» RE: Scholars for 9/11 Truth Posted by: deo508
it was the gods
Posted by: aurora2484 on Jul 12, 2006 12:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These guys must have had a role in it somewhere - too many miraculous events just happened along the way:

www.whatreallyhappened.com/handofallah.php

» yo ghoulman! Posted by: aurora2484
» RE: oops! Posted by: Ghoulman
The evidence is gone.
Posted by: wli on Jul 12, 2006 1:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Definitive smoking gun -type evidence can't exist for the simple reason that all the physical and video evidence is either destroyed, or a permanent state secret, or permanently in the hands of suspects.

On the other hand, the official story has long-since been debunked. There's a coverup of something. Precisely what will never be known with absolute certainty.

There's a great deal of circumstantial evidence strongly suggesting the events did not occur as officially described. The Griffin quote, even if genuine, amounts to a smear. The analyses of the collapses are nowhere near so shallow.

There are a number of reasons beyond the specifics of the attack why a false flag attack should be the operational assumption and official explanations completely discounted.

1. False flag attacks are standard practice. (c.f. "armed propaganda" from counterinsurgency literature)
2. Investigations such as the 9/11 Commission are equivalent to the suspect investigating themselves and as such should be lent no credence whatsoever.
3. Near-instant announcement of the alleged perpetrator's identity.
4. Predetermined response with preparations prior to the event; the Afghan war plans were prepared shortly before 9/11.
5. Variance with the modus operandi of the alleged perpetrator; previously OBL had attacked military targets in Middle Eastern countries deemed occupied.
6. Excessive numbers of "happy coincidences" for the suspect (US administration).
7. Institutional affiliation of the suspects with known false flag attack campaigns, in particular Gladio via Ledeen and Kissinger's membership in the Montecarlo Comite and association with P2, and their history of close cooperation with the members of the administration.
8. Highly unusual activity by the suspects surrounding the attack, such as the military exercises, direct assumption of control of the air response, warnings not to fly, inconsistent stories about learning of the attack, etc.

These are arguments for an operational assumption, not proof. The evidence has long-since been destroyed and the official story is rather obviously hogwash. Circumstantial cases may be made, but they'll never get anywhere anyway. The important thing to take from the operational assumption is the level of violence involved.

» RE: The evidence is gone. Posted by: glorybe
» RE: The evidence is gone. Posted by: hawkwtchr
Great article! Conspiracy theorists need to MoveOn
Posted by: prod on Jul 12, 2006 1:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a major distraction plus it gives the right wingers ammunition to call all liberals crazy.

You have to be out of your mind to think 9/11 was an inside job. Plus it is giving Bush too much credit. He had only been in office for a few months.

It doesn't help that the major pusher of the 9/11 conspiracy theory also famously claims the moon landings were fakes.

I question anybody's sanity who believes 9/11 was an inside job. I have a feeling most of them are 40 years old, single and still living with their mothers.

» Well said Colin..... Posted by: starvinmarvy
» Alternet's motive Posted by: LeonDion
» Cheney did it. Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Cheney did it. Posted by: willymack
» out of your mind you say? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» Not "Great". Not by a long shot. Posted by: reprehensor
Several instances of flawed reasoning here
Posted by: HeroesAll on Jul 12, 2006 2:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Scientific theories, on the other hand, depend on interlocking chains of evidence: The integrity of the whole relies on the soundness of each link. Break any one and the theory founders.

That's not how I'd describe science, although there are aspects of truth. And it must be said that, just as there is no monolithic 'liberal' or 'conservative' or whatever political group, there is no single monolithic 'science'. There just ain't. Each branch of science has different procedures, different standards (not better or worse, just different), different aims, and different world views.

The other thing is that she's using the existence of a bunch of different claims to prove that 9/11 must have been as advertised, because 'science' doesn't do that. Well, she's actually confusing herself, and others, here. The variety of different claims are a bunch of things that are clearly, probably, or possibly, wrong with the official explanation. Each thread is considered possible evidence that 'something's not right' with that part of the official explanation. They're not all related together. She might equally be complaining that human medicine must be wrong because it depends on a bunch of threads from zoology, cellular biology, physical and inorganic chemistry, and so on.

So, her claims about 'science' are dubious. Let's move along. She then goes on to claim:

Its proponents cite a mountain of evidence to conclude that the U.S. government perpetrated the 9/11 attacks for its own traitorous ends

Well, there's not many who believe that. So she's immediately lumping everyone who has some doubt about aspects of the issue in with the extremist wing nuts. Rather like some wing nuts say that libruls want to take away everyone's toys and make us salute pictures of Stalin. There's a number of sensible people (yes, including myself) who believe that there are some serious unresolved questions about that day, and she's not addressing that at all.

She clearly hasn't read Griffin's book, because if she had, she'd have known that he was extremely clear about using (I think) 7 degrees of complicity, and discussed, for each piece of disputed story, which degree was most likely. If she has read it, of course, she's wilfully ignoring it, and therefore doing what we call lying.

I don't know why she's concerned about the use of the word 'pull' in reference to WTC7. It doesn't seem to me germane at all.

She's also ignoring the stonewalling conducted by the Bush administration with regards to investigations; the removal of materials from the site (I know forensics folk who had conniptions at this - it's a major sin in their lexicon); the hamstringing of the investigation when it finally began; and numerous other indications that the Bush administration had something to hide.

Yes, I think there are unanswered questions. Yes, I think the administration is hiding something (or some things). The evidence for that is pretty well unarguable. No, I don't think Bush and his cronies planned it all for their own fell purposes (although I wouldn't be surprised if they had, sadly). So why is she using such extreme, one-dimensional, illogic?

I'd also imagine that, if any of the claims could be proven, all of the other Bush cabal misdeeds would be immaterial, because an administration that connived in whatever way with the events of that day would be ridden out of town on a rail without further ado. Hoist by their own petard, in an almost literal sense.

» Conspiracy V Conspiracy Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Conspiracy V Conspiracy Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Conspiracy V Conspiracy Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Conspiracy V Conspiracy Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Conspiracy V Conspiracy Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Italics Posted by: IanA
» RE: Italics Posted by: WhuThe?!?
Conspiracy? I don't think so!
Posted by: cajajo on Jul 12, 2006 2:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many conspiracists offer the collapse of WTC Building 7 as the strongest evidence for the kind of controlled demolition that would prove a plot.

Oh, please. If you really spent all that time researching a 'few' key elements, you'd know it takes at least 4-6 or more weeks planning and setting up the explosives to implode a building. This, and the fact that ALL evidence was quickly spirited away and destroyed; that cheney had NORAD halfway across the country, with no hope of intercepting these planes; there's no evidence bin Laden was involved per the FBI - these 'few' key elements (and there are many more) tell me that over 3,000 of our citizens were expendable that day. How you can say this is some conspiracy theory after looking at all the evidence - not coincidences - is beyond me.

» RE: Moon landing wasn't faked. Posted by: symcokid
Why Does Asking for the Truth Brand People as WingNuts??
Posted by: bttl on Jul 12, 2006 2:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are enough holes in the official US government story of the 911 events to qualify as swiss cheese. The facts just do not add up. It is well known that the US government did in fact have advance warning of the intended attacks.

I want to ask you to consider just one point. If our country were truly under attack and it was a total suprise, would our president have been allowed to continue reading to a room of schoolchildren? Wouldn't he have been immediately whisked away, not just for his safety, but for the safety of the school? That instance alone(check out the footage of that) is just one piece of the smoking gun. Then of course there is the immdediate removal and recycling of the debris, the questionable Pentagon crash, who shot down the plane that crashed in the field; the list goes on and on.

The events of 911 were very convenient in terms of persuading a gullible public that we needed to take action against the "evil dooers". This was already planned.

I think that the main reason that some reject the notion that 911 is not as it was presented is either a stunning lack of imagination or else an acute case of denial; the innability to accept that our own government would facilitate this event.

I don't know if the buildings were or were not rigged to explode or any of those other issues. I am sure that top levels of our government did know of this plot and used it for their own purposes.

» RE: Because it's funny Posted by: deo508
What Kind of Government Shill Wrote This Article?!?
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Jul 12, 2006 3:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The official story of 9/11 is so full of holes, you could fly a jet plane through them. Just use your own eyes! We've all seen the video of the twin towers collapsing. Do buildings hit at the top by airplanes fall down neatly into their own footprints at the speed of gravity? And what did bring down the third building WTC 7, which was a block from the twin towers and never hit by any plane, if not demolition charges? Just spend half an hour cruising the web, and you'll find plenty more facts to make you suspicious. After all the false-flag operations the American government has run, after all the lies it has told, it's amazing there are so many gullible citizens left that half of Americans still believe the official fairy tale. Such stupidity is utterly shameful!

hank george
Posted by: hankgeorge on Jul 12, 2006 3:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am disappointed, Mr. author, that you did so little work on this matter before denouncing the alternative explanation of 9/11. I hope you have seen the seminal work by Dr. Jones at BYU, who is a world-class structural engineer and who debunks the official explanation for the twin towers coming down from the planes alone. He is ready to debate anyone...no takers.

If you saw WTC 7 come down and don't recognize an implosion by controlled demolition, you need to see a demo of this process. It was pulled...and you cannot set charges to pull a building in one day.

I think you need a much more sobering baptismal into the weigh of evidence here. When I first discovered THE NEW PEARL HARBOR by Griffin I bought it, in London on business, read it, was intrigued but hardly convinced, and went on from there. Now, there is no doubt in my mind that the official story is shredded.

I cannot emotionally accept that my government would do this on face value (forgetting that Gulf of Tonkin, the sinking of the Maine, etc, were all proven lies or inside jobs)...so all I want, all most of us who care about the truth and want to be able to restore trust want, is for an INDEPENDENT investigator - not a Bush close friend like the man who oversaw the content of discussion at the 9/11 Commission (which really was a one-sided con job) - to conduct a genuine study, hearing all evidence from all sides, before we simply concede that the official story is factual.

Assuming you are on objective and honest man - and I know I am both - then I think you really need to look deeper into what has been discovered by researchers since Griffin's two books and then see if you do not agree that this should be put to bed with a genuine investigation and not a transparent con job.

I don't see that this is unreasonable if so many people on the street have lingering questions about the perplexing global failure of all elements in an otherwise "foolproof" system all on the same day and the disturbing fact that NO ONE has lost their job or even been demoted, to my knowledge, for castastrophic failures. Don't you think my request for objectivity is fair, considering...?

Until you have done your homework as thoroughly as I have and until you have confronted the question of the basis for the 9/11 Commission Report, I don't think your opinion really means all that much...said with great respect for AlertNet and all the fine work done here.

» RE: That should be Ms. Author Posted by: sallyjrw
» RE: That should be Ms. Author Posted by: hankgeorge
» RE: hank george Posted by: kogwonton
Not Another Kennedy
Posted by: ChristopherLL on Jul 12, 2006 4:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I grew up with the Kennedy assasination conspiracy theorists under every rock. Just recently two Cuban intelligence agents finally revealed the truth; they had encouraged and financed Oswald. It not only makes purfect sense as they had details that fit perfectly to the actual events (that all other were trying to "fill the gaps") but of course had they spoken sooner catasrophic consequences from the venegance of this country would have occured. So they kept silent for years. This is not so with 9/11. The mastermind and organizer was caught two years ago and his testimony well documented. But paranoid, avoidant and/or obsessive compulsive personalities abound in this society and this is a chance for them to shine.

» Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: Madalone
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: hawkwtchr
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: hawkwtchr
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: hawkwtchr
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: hawkwtchr
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: hawkwtchr
» RE: Permit me to take umbrage Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Not Another Kennedy Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Not Another Kennedy Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Not Another Kennedy Posted by: hawkwtchr
» Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (NT) Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (NT) Posted by: ChristopherLL
» Further Explanation, please Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Further Explanation, please Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: Further Explanation, please Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» so... Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: so... Posted by: ChristopherLL
» Not Another Kennedy Conflation Posted by: reprehensor
» RE: Not Another Kennedy Conflation Posted by: ChristopherLL
» RE: NOT EVEN JOHN WAYNE Posted by: Neilium
The pile hypothesis
Posted by: ZombyWoof on Jul 12, 2006 4:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A problem with conspiracy research is that a motive is often assigned based on a pile of facts. Many of these researchers have discovered many verifiable interesting facts about 9-11. Some go further and assign a nefarious motive to one group or another, often with great leaps of logic. There are certainly a number of misconceptions and inflated evidence floating around the 9-11 research community because of shabby research, strong preconceptions or possible disinfo.

That being said, the author seems to believe that disproving a handful of off-the mark allegations is a reason to stop asking questions which have never been satisfactorily answered.

A pile hypothesis still demands a pile of information. We do have a pile of information which contradicts or brings into question the conventional wisdom. The administration has, in many ways, actively hindered the offical analysis of such information. Why, I do not know.

If these questions are so easily disposed of, the author would be better off doing some investigation and explaining away some of the key unanswered questions rather than cherry-picking a few of the low-lying straw men and recommending that the subject be dropped.

I often hear people say that there are some things we shouldn't know about the government's actions. I bristle at that because it is a way of telling yourself that you are absolved from responsibility as a citizen.

If the government doesn't work for us, it works for someone else. As Dylan sang, "You've got to serve somebody." No President is Superman. Different power centers always direct or influence the government. I would prefer it to be the citizens, but an uniformed citizenry is useless for that purpose. Unfortunately, that is the end result of too much secrecy in government.

» Zombywoof, are you a Zappa fan? Posted by: klaatukev
Almost, but not quite, incredible
Posted by: KateM on Jul 12, 2006 4:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who wouldn't like to believe that some nasty cavedweller with a big fat trust fund and lousy kidneys got his fundamentalist whackjobs to do such a deed?

But anyone who reviews all the evidence there is, and ponders all the evidence that "disappeared," has to admit that there are far too many holes in the official story as it is presently told to swallow it without question. And then, on top of the evidence/missing evidence directly related to the 9/11 event (and hey, how 'bout that anthrax?) take a look at what happened in the months leading up and leading away from it.

There needs to be a lot more open debate between scholars on both sides of this, a lot more 'splainin' to do. Period. Just because we don't WANT to believe it shouldn't make people bury their pinheads in the sand.

» RE: Almost, but not quite, incredible Posted by: sirossisofliver
The definaition of faith, something most Evangelical Rightists don't know
Posted by: deo508 on Jul 12, 2006 4:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Phillipians 1:11 Now, faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen.

I'd like to see someone question Bush or Dobson on this. Or, ask any so-called Christian Republican Politician what the Bible says is faith. They don't know a Goddamned thing about faith.
9/11 was done by Bin Laden under the watchful eyes of Mossad and the Israelis and the NeoCons. There is evidence proving this.
The Israelis wanted us to get hit so that we would get drawn into their war against the Arabs and therby sanction their continuing slow agonizing policy of under the radar genocide of the Palestinians. There are statements made by high level Israelis like Netanyahu proving this thereby making it evidence.
The Neocons wanted us to get hit so that we could go to war in the Middle East. They needed an excuse to begin execution of their Project for the New American Century. There is evidence proving this.
Bin Laden, fair guy that he is, warned us tht it was coming. There is evidece proving this.
FBI agents did their job and found the hijackers at different stages of their plan but the Bush Mafia buried the intel. There is evidence proving this. Again, THE FBI DID THEIR JOB AND DI IT WELL.
CIA, for all it's detractors, sent a Memo to Bush stating that Bin Laden was determind to hijack planes and strike them inot buildings. There is evidence proving this. AGAIN, THE CIA DID THEIR JOB WELL.
Faith, the only thing I take on faith is the evidence that the Likudnic Israelis and the American Neocons wate to go to war even before 9/11 when they drafted the PNAC letter and sent it to President Clinton urging him to invade Iraq. They are crazy and insane people every one.
Faith is a concept for people who have no evidence, have no use for facts or science, have no use for reality. In other words, it's a biblical fantasy.

Maybe not a conspiracy, but...
Posted by: grokked on Jul 12, 2006 4:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've never been a great believer in conspiracy theories, as the kind of chessmasster mentality that could plan and pull one off is usually rare. (Rove, unfortunately, seems to be an exception.)

However, I do think that opportunities sometimes present themselves, and motives are not always what you would think.

For example, in the early days of the CIA campaign in Afganistan, the in-country CIA guys and the local militias had Bin Laden and his chumps holed up in the Tora Bora mountain region. Why did it really take Rumsfeld a month to get troops in there? If they had gotten in there earlier, Bin Laden would be in a cell today, and the "diffusion" of Al Queada would not have happened.

Was it really just an innocent case of logistics, as Rumsfeld claims?

More likely, was it due to the on-going "war" between Rumsfeld, Cheney, and their neo-con buddies in the pentagon vs. Tennent and the CIA for Bush's "favors"?

Or, is there still a third possibility?

Could it be that catching Bin Laden two months after 9/11 was simply too soon for the neo-con agenda?

Would catching Bin Laden early have ruined their plans for a jolly little war in Iraq (and Iran, and Syria, and...) ?

Inquiring minds want to know...

» or he is a FOB Posted by: Lauren
» Bin who? Posted by: paulaH
war criminals
Posted by: rsaxto on Jul 12, 2006 4:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With presidential war criminals galore and a complex addiction to secrecy in effect we may never know comprehensive truth about all the major players who created the factors that made 9/11 happen. We know for sure the Bushies did and are doing numerous war crimes and other crimes. Whether they assisted in the boost of 9/11 that made it possible for two Bushie terms in office they definitely benefited from 9/11 in every which way. So they need to be impeached in every which way so that we can, under oath, get more of the truth. We can argue every which way but we need to torch Bushie asses under oath to get the full truth. IMPEACH.

» RE: war criminals Posted by: kogwonton
Be afraid…?
Posted by: Arvy on Jul 12, 2006 4:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I grew up in London during the 70s and 80s and faced the daily 'threat' of IRA attacks.
At the time the government always encouraged the citizens to stay calm, don't panic, don't be afraid, go about your business and don't let the bastards terrorise you.
With this new, 'Islamic terrorist threat' we are almost told the opposite; that we should be afraid (except when it gets in the way of shopping).
This is the main reason that I suspect the whole thing has been manufactured or, if you like, used to extend government powers. At least in the UK, anyway.

» RE: Be afraid…? Posted by: FedererFan
Finally a fair look at the consiracy theory view - and the NY Times
Posted by: Conservasaurus on Jul 12, 2006 4:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"When David Ray Griffin, a theologian by trade, said it was "physically impossible by laws of physics" for the planes alone to have brought down the towers, I asked what engineers had confirmed that. "I haven't talked to any because they would be too afraid to tell the truth," he said. "How would you be able to protect your family if you were to accuse the government?" he asked, accusing the government."

The only argument one needs to refute the conspiracy theorists are statements like that above.The more people like this talk and make unsubstantiated comments, the more it diminishes the far left arguments and position re 911. Most Americans know Bush had nothing to do with the attacks.. Common sense prevails....

A side point.. their was a demonstration in front of the New York Times building yesterday protesting the papers propensiety to divulge sensitive and crucial government programs designed to fight terrorism. The NY Times has past the point of objective reporting. According to a Fox News analysis, the Times has written about 180 articles in the past 11 months, all negative, about the Bush Administration.. Hopefully they will make some editorial changes and return to a more balanced approach to their preorting and not take it upon themselves to danger all Americans!!!

» We have a terrorist among us????? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» We have a terrorist among us????? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Hey, I'm with you. Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Hey, I'm with you. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: This guy is joking right? Posted by: kungfoofighterx
» I do think the joke is on YOU! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Finally a fair look at the...NYT??? Posted by: Conservasaurus
Call me a wingnut
Posted by: earnesteliot on Jul 12, 2006 4:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two thoughts: ONE: When we cannot imagine a worst case scenario, and/or accuse others (including real wingnuts) of being insane because they DO imagine worst case scenarios, we open the door for the worst case to become real, without ever being questioned; TWO: If you can imagine the combined wealth and power invested in a very few people, many of whom express neo-fascist attitudes, and if you can imagine their fear of a real democracy demanding real economic justice, it is not at all hard to imagine a hidden group with the will and means to carry out 9/11 as theater. Bush didn't need to know about it to be complicit. It might have been nothing more than intentionally ignoring solid knowledge of the attacks; but I agree, there are still way too many unanswered questions ... such as, why no aircraft debris at the the Pentagon?

» RE: Call me a wingnut Posted by: deo508
The 911 SCIENCE Movement
Posted by: perico on Jul 12, 2006 5:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There IS a mountain of circumstantial evidence swirling around the historical events of 911. Sadly, many people confuse circumstantial evidence with proof and many of their arguements are easily called into question. However, this is not the middle ages.

Scientists have begun to apply the scientific method to the analysis of the WTC collapse, and found that the governments hypothesis for the collapse does not explain many of the observed phenomona. (Initiation mechanism, Speed and symmetry of collapse, molten metal, secondary explosions, siesmic data, etc.)

It has become clear that the hypothesis that best fits the observed phenomena is controlled demolition, not progressive collapse due to structural damage and fire. Do with that what you will, but to believe that the WTC towers collapsed due to damage and fire?? That is an act of FAITH, just like believeing in creationism over evolution.

Alternet, you do yourselves a disfavor by publishing this poor journalism.

» RE: The 911 SCIENCE Movement Posted by: gary_7vn
» RE: The 911 SCIENCE Movement Posted by: concerned Canadian
» RE: The 911 SCIENCE Movement Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The 911 SCIENCE Movement Posted by: hawkwtchr
» RE: The 911 SCIENCE Movement Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The 911 SCIENCE Movement Posted by: NoahKount
» RE: The 911 SCIENCE Movement Posted by: Conservasaurus
Where is the "overwhelming evidence"?
Posted by: robbb3rt on Jul 12, 2006 5:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where is the "overwhelming evidence"? It seems to me that it takes one hell of a leap of faith to buy the official 9-11 Commission report.

I don't subscribe to any conspiracy theories, but I don't believe that the official story adds up, either. Don't forget that the administration was reluctant to have a committee in the first place, and then refused to have an independent one.

We know that evidence was collected, and kept under wraps, that efforts were immediately underway to alter the sites, such as removing the relatively undamaged lawn at the Pentagon, and that the cleanup was mishandled.

The health problems and deaths of rescue and salvage workers who were ordered to proceed without proper respirators, because the EPA deemed it safe, for instance are not figments of the imaginations of conspiracy theorists.

The author disingenuously claims that "nearly half of all Americans" believe that the Bush Administration was actually complicit in the attacks themselves, when many people, like me, haven't come to that conclusion, or any other, including the official one.
There is a difference between participation in the attacks, and mishandling the prevention and recovery from the attacks, yet Ms. Allen chooses to group all skeptics into the "conspiracy theory" crowd.

As far as those who believe that Bush, et al., were actually responsible goes, the demonstrated immorality of the administration indicates that they are certainly capable of such horrific acts, whether they are guilty or not.

With what information Americans were given, the theories of Alex Jones, et al. are as plausible as any others, including the official story.

The truth is that we'll probably never know, and history will record a version provided by known liars.

There is a more relevant question than "did they do it?"
Posted by: LMNOP on Jul 12, 2006 5:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is, "Are they the kind of people who would have done it or might be behind the next 'terrorist' attack?".

Conspiracy theory? I think the author mean conspiracy hypothesis. I don’t trust anyone who uses the term conspiracy theory to discredit the source of a hypothesis, and by extension, the hypothesis itself.

Conspiracies happen everywhere and all of the time. Any idea arrived at by two or more people speaking privately is a conspiracy. In the benign sense, a surprise birthday party is a conspiracy.

Well, who would conjecture or make the suggestion that conservatives would meet behind closed doors and make secret plans? Does that kind of thing ever happen, or do you suppose that the party of transparency has all of its meetings in public forums?

So what if Bush’s coven wasn’t actually behind 9-11? All that that fact changes is that he is not guilty of that particular crime. What matters is that we know as well as it is possible to know about anybody that the neocons would have leveled the trade towers it if they had thought of it, knew how much it would help them, and believed that they could get away with it. As (oxymoron alert!) Justice Scalia would say, “The mere fact of innocence is irrelevant”

Even if they weren’t behind it, who (that hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid) would doubt for a nanosecond that these demonstrably sociopathic monsters wouldn't do it in the future now that they have seen the benefit?

For me, that's all that matters. Is there anybody who doubts that knowing how 911 turned out to be so beneficial for them, that the Bush babies would have lifted a finger to prevent the disaster? If you do, then your read is vastly different from mine. Maybe I’ve been wrong about Manson, too.

So, I say, don't be ashamed or afraid to entertain or posit a conspiracy hypothesis. Be ashamed if people like this author who ridicule you for proposing a conspiracy have intimidated you. The entire conservative movement of the last two or three decades has been a conspiracy to convert America into an undemocratic corporatocracy and aristocracy.

Nor is it justified to label someone paranoid if there is evidence (not necessarily proof) to support the relevant fear. Paranoia is irrational fear based on a delusion. That is, the fear is not justified by reality or evidence. Reality justifies just about any and all fears or suspicions that an observant individual might consider. They aren’t all founded in reality, of course, but what chance is there of dealing more effectively with conspiracies if the subject is off limits in your head?

» ON POLITICAL FAITH Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: ON POLITICAL FAITH Posted by: FedererFan
» Secret meetings Posted by: Lauren
NONE WHATSOEVER!
Posted by: Roverton on Jul 12, 2006 5:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THERE ARE NO CONSPIRACIES - EVER!
JUST STUPID PEOPLE GOOFING UP!
IF THERE WERE CONSPIRACIES, WE'D HEAR ABOUT THEM! AND WHERN WE DO HEAR ABOUT THEM - THOSE PEOPLE ARE WING-NUTS!

AND ALL A WING-NUT IS, IS SOMETHING TRYING TO CYNCH DOWN TIGHTER ONTO SOMETHING ELSE!

OKAY. FORGET THAT LAST ANALOGY! I'M SO ANGRY AT ALL THESE "NUT-JOB" DETAIL FREAKS, BEING ALL RELIGIOUS-LIKE IN THEIR FERVOR TO FIND THINGS OUT!

ACCEPT MY ANSWER AND SIMPLY MOVEOUT.ORG!!!

IF "WING-NUT" OR "CONSPIRACY-MONKEY" DON'T SHAME YOU OFF OF TOPIC - THEN I WILL FIND ANOTHER CHILDHOOD SHAME- ISSUE BUZZ-WORD!

YOU ARE NOW "RESEARCH-HAMSTERS"!

WHY SO CERTAIN OF MY STANCE?

THE AMOUNT OF MONEY SPENT ON MY EDUCATION QUALIFIES ME TO TELL YOU THAT YOU'RE WRONG!

I'M NOT ELITIST, I'M JUST ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

» Wow. Posted by: kryptx
» RE: Wow. Posted by: kaw valley kid
» Loved It Posted by: rwa
» RE: NONE WHATSOEVER! Posted by: willymack
» RE: NONE WHATSOEVER! Posted by: bodo
» Jeez, Mister... Posted by: reprehensor
» RE: NONE WHATSOEVER! Posted by: SALLY EVANS
Terry Allen vs. the Straw Man
Posted by: DrXyzzy on Jul 12, 2006 5:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hallmark of someone blustering on behalf of the official
story is the straw man attack on conspiracy theories and
theorists.

You do not have to hold to a single theory about 9/11 to
have serious concerns that the official story is riddled with
inconsistencies and lies. All you need is an open mind and
a modicum of critical thinking.

Fore knowledge = Conspiracy
Posted by: tmwright on Jul 12, 2006 5:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You do not need evidence of controlled demolitions to advance a 9-11 conspiracy theory. Bush's pronouncement that no one could have imagined that terrorists would use planes as guided missles flies in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary. One need only review pre 9-11 media reports:

1999 –EXPLICIT WARNING THAT AL QAEDA HAD PLANS TO FLY AIRPLANES INTO BUILDINGS: A 1999 report prepared by the Library of Congress for the National Intelligence Council "warned that Osama bin Laden's terrorists could hijack an airliner and fly it into government buildings like the Pentagon." The report specifically said, "Suicide bomber(s) belonging to al-Qaida's Martyrdom Battalion could crash-land an aircraft packed with high explosives…into the Pentagon, the headquarters of the CIA, or the White House." In response to the ominous warnings, the New York Times reports “under Janet Reno, the Justice Department’s counterterrorism budget increased 13.6% in the fiscal year 1999, 7.1% in 2000 and 22.7% in 2001." [Source: CBS, 5/17/02; NY Times, 2/28/02]

JULY 2001 –ANOTHER WARNING THAT AL QAEDA PLANNED TO USE PLANES AS MISSILES: The LA Times reported that U.S. and Italian officials were warned in July 2001 that "Islamic terrorists might attempt to kill President Bush and other leaders by crashing an airliner into the Genoa summit of industrialized nations." [Source: LA Times, 9/27/01]

JULY 2001 – ASHCROFT STOPS FLYING COMMERCIAL BECAUSE OF “THREAT ASSESSMENT”: Attorney General John Ashcroft stopped flying commercial airlines and instead began "traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines" because of "what the Justice Department called a 'threat assessment.'" That "threat assessment" has never been made public. [Source: CBS, 7/26/01]

AUGUST 2001 - PRESIDENT PERSONALLY WARNED OF AL QAEDA AIRPLANE PLOT: ABC News reported, Bush Administration "officials acknowledged that U.S. intelligence officials informed President Bush weeks before the Sept. 11 attacks that bin Laden's terrorist network might try to hijack American planes." Dateline NBC reported that on August 6, 2001, the President personally “received a one-and-a-half page briefing advising him that Osama bin Laden was capable of a major strike against the US, and that the plot could include the hijacking of an American airplane." [Source: ABC News, 5/16/02; NBC, 9/10/02]

SEPTEMBER 2001 - PENTAGON OFFICIALS CHANGE FLIGHTS ON 9/11 BECAUSE OF SECURITY: Newsweek reported that on 9/10/01 "a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns." Newsweek also reported "that as many as 10 to 12 warnings" were issued before 9/11, and "more than two of the warnings specifically mentioned the possibility of hijackings." [Source: Newsweek, 9/24/01]

What is more, one would have to believe that no intelligence service anywhere in the world got wind of this massive operation that involved operatives in many countries. Read the Op Ed piece in The Guardian written by former British Interior Minister and MP Michael Meacher. Meacher claims that the German intellignce service provided wiretap evidence to the CIA in August indicating that Al Qaeda was in the final stages of a plan to hijack commercial jets and crash them into targets within the US -- remember the trip to Texas in August that the CIA Director conveniently forgot about.

There are just too many holes in the official version to write this off as plain incompentence or selective inattention.

fellow wingnut

» RE: best post ever... Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: best post ever... Posted by: kryptx
» RE: best post ever... Posted by: IanA
» RE: best post ever... Posted by: willymack
skeptic
Posted by: skeptic7 on Jul 12, 2006 6:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author begins the article "Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary..." and then proceeds to offer little more than a few unreferenced factoids for the readers consideration. I'm confused, which conspiracy theory exactly is he referring to when he uses the sarcastic moniker "The 9/11 Faith Movement"?

According to the powers that be, the impact of the planes was so violent that the "black boxes" of both planes were completely destroyed and could not be recoverd. However, we are told Al Qaeda linked Islamic radicals were implicated because one of their passports miraculously survived the crash and was discovered amongst the wreckage.

That’s just one example of some the incredible claims made by the agencies that investigated 9-11. I agree that there are many conspiracy theories surrounding the events of 9-11, many of which are unsupported by what little evidence remains- the offical explination included. Why is it Alternet allows themselves to be a forum only to those who would dismiss anyone incredulous of the official explination as a tin-foil hat wearing wacko? Couldn’t we have a real debate?

» RE: skeptic Posted by: willymack
» Huh? Posted by: 50566
Desperate acts of desperate men
Posted by: LeonDion on Jul 12, 2006 6:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you believe like the majority, that the 9.11 terrorist attacks were conducted with the foreknowlege of elements in the United States government, and were at the very minimum allowed, in order to precipitate war (likely), then what does it tell us about the true State of the Union?

What really got me about the subsequent invasion of Iraq, is how desperate it seemed to be. The honorable man, secure in his stature, does not pick fights because his neighbor has a cache of goods which he covets.

Sad to say, but the recent actions of the United States (Inc.) betray the character of a weak and desperate man. Unable to build up his own strength and honor, he constantly points fingers at the rest of the world, blaming all his troubles on an ever-multiplying horde of others.

Peak oil has come upon us faster than the United States was ever willing to prepare for. The alternative transportation and rail infrastructure is hopelessly gutted, largely due to the machinations of the oil and automobile industries. Home (thus, land) ownership is slipping away with record foreclosures, while industrial agriculture remains hostage to its addiction to petroleum inputs.

The economy, guided by a largely foreign-owned private banking cartel misnamed the "Federal" "Reserve", is bleeding real value, while being drowned in debt - both the government's and the people's.

Regardless of whether 9.11 was an inside job: The systems of protection failed that day and people died. Billions of dollars of gold were taken from the basement vault. The nation was psychologically scarred, subsequently divided, and weakened. To gloss over the truth of the losses is to deny the reality. Those who deny reality lose it. Americans are losing your country, your community, your families; your own homes.

You are lied to every day, by a media bought and paid for by selfish and irresponsible men, whose identity and character you do not really know.

I believe that George Bush's loyalty is primarily to a cabal of global elite. The generally accepted wisdom worldwide is that America uses too much oil per capita, and that situation has to be changed, with or without the consent of the American people. The Bushmen are seeking to reduce Iraq's oil production today in order to save it for tomorrow, while boosting the price of oil in order to acquire more money, and hence power.

Take control, or others will take control of you. Willful men, such as George Bush and Dick Cheney. The 9.11 attacks were a single salvo in their campaign for control of America.

I expect more.

There are no conspiracy theories.
Posted by: CovertRage on Jul 12, 2006 6:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, there are conspiracies and a hellacious host of conspirators. And, 9-11 is now history, not a conspiracy.

It's the lies, you idiot
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jul 12, 2006 6:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You say people love conspiracy. No, people hate the lies. They fester, they stain, they are like a piece of diseased flesh that must be ripped from the body.

And these lies are everywhere. Yes, even in this article! My god. Even if you believed the government, a rational person would have to raise a brow at all these lies.

"nor do the facts support the conspiracists' key charge that World Trade Center buildings were destroyed by pre-positioned explosives. "

I've seen for myself multiple videos of *liquid* *molten* steel/iron pouring out of the WTC minutes before collapse. It looks just like a thermite reaction. No other possible explanation exists aside from some type of semi-controlled demolition. The color indicates the temperature, it's not aluminum like some idiot apologists have claimed. It is iron, and it is hot, and there's lots of it, and jet fuel didn't do it, and it is what caused those buildings to collapse. Pure, simple, plain, indesputable scientific evidence that the jet fuel theory is bogus. It's not proof of cd, but then not everyone is claiming it is. It is merely proof that we have been lied to and we cannot trust them.

"In fact, a Nexis search for a three-year period fails to find one American reference to "pull a building" without the preposition "down" when referring to intentional destruction. "

Heh. Someone actually called CDI and asked them to define "pull" and they said it was controlled demolition, no ambiguity whatsoever. A recording of the actual phone call can be found at 911blogger.

» RE: It's the lies, you idiot Posted by: brunowe
» RE: It's the lies, you idiot Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: It's the lies, you idiot Posted by: brunowe
» RE: It's the lies, you idiot Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: It's the lies, you idiot Posted by: brunowe
» RE: It's the lies, you idiot Posted by: brunowe
» RE: It's the lies, you idiot Posted by: skeptic7
» RE: It's the lies, you idiot Posted by: brunowe
Gibberish. Next article...
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Jul 12, 2006 6:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For those convinced by this author's shallow, superficial, worthless argument, the first and second blogger here gave several references. And there exists many more. The author addresses nothing. A government propagandist wasting webspace. I won't waste any more breath. Next article please.

» RE: Gibberish. Next article... Posted by: Iconoclast421
how does one "subscribe" to a conspiracy theory?
Posted by: Kenn Thomas on Jul 12, 2006 7:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Terry Allen's comment that people are somehow "comforted" by conspiracy theories lacks a certain logic on its surface, but this article is utterly contradicted by its own selective use of research.

The writer claims that a three-year Nexis search did not find a single reference to "pull a building" without the preposition "down", then offers the possibility that NYFD may have instead decided to "pull workers" from Building 7. This refers to Larry Silverstein's comment that "the smartest thing to do is pull it". Writer Allen reports no attempt to do a Nexis search on instances where the singular pronoun "it" refers to the plural noun "workers".

I have always wondered about the use of the verb "subscribe" as it applies to conspiracy theory (aka, parapolitics). If someone accepts a certain paranoid idea, does that person get regularly issued mental updates? It seems to me that such a thing happens mostly with mainstream viewpoints, to which people literally subscribe via online computer service and cable TV, or with political opinion magazines like In These Times.

Of course, there's always the conspiracy rag Steamshovel Press. It sells subscriptions.

Kenn Thomas

IS THIS AUTHOR INSANE???
Posted by: rudyaub on Jul 12, 2006 7:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At this point I can barely control myself when dealing with this level of ignorance.
To suggest that the "OFFICIAL" accounting of the events of 9/11 is the REAL conspiracy theory is pure ignorance. Look at the put options. Look at WTC 7- A BUILDING THAT WAS NOT ATTACKED BY TERRORISTS BUT WAS DEMOLISHED ON 9/11. CAN THIS IDIOT PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GET THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS FACT THROUGH THEIR THICK HEAD?
A skyscraper, a WTC building, owned by Silverstein, was demolished on 9/11. It was not hit by debris. It was not attacked by these invisible terrorists that everyone has been hooting and hollering about. Let's just disregard that as of yet there has not been ONE public trial, not ONE verifiable witness to terrorism...for some unknown reason they remain invisible in spite of this police state/ surveillance community we now live in.
WAKE THE FUCK UP ALL OF YOU!!!
READ NEW YORK NEWSDAY 9/12/2001 there ARE MANY MANY FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS OF EXPLOSIONS GOING OFF INSIDE THE WTC BUILDINGS. Check it out yourself!
There are also- uh-oh! numerous claims that bin Laden was behind it- accredited to who? the President? NO! To UNNAMED, members of Washington THINK TANKS!!!

Evidence? HA! Would you like an example of the United States government conducting terrorism on U.S. soil AFTER 9/11? Does anyone remember the anthrax attacks? Oooh what happened to that? Boy how that was swept under the rug? Maybe it's because the trail led right back to the door of the Whitehouse? You see, on 9/11 Bush had a bioweapons lab in Washington evacuated and locked down by the Army. This is the same lab that the anthrax came from. So what? Well remember- the anthrax attacks were made up to look like they came from terrorists. "Long live allah!" Why would they do this? BECAUSE THEY WANTED ALL OF US- EVERY AMERICAN TO FEEL VULNERABLE TO TERRORISM! SAVE US BUSH WE'LL DO ANYTHING JUST SAVE US!!!
You idiots deserve whatever they give us. I hold you all in such contempt at this point for denying your common sense. I often wonder how the future will judge our pussy ass, ignorant, weak generation.
I could sit here all goddamned day detailing why and how our government conducted this little bout of terrorism but what's the point? You idiots won't do shit about it anyway. Go vote on your computer voting machines and take what they give you.
Anybody that's tried to get people to see the truth can understand my frustration. I'm so furious I can barely contain myself.

» RE: IS THIS AUTHOR INSANE??? Posted by: John Rice
» RE: IS THIS AUTHOR INSANE??? Posted by: rudyaub
» OK, I'll try Posted by: SteveB
» RE: IS THIS AUTHOR INSANE??? Posted by: willymack
» RE: IS THIS AUTHOR INSANE??? Posted by: Stellagirl
» RE: IS THIS AUTHOR INSANE??? Posted by: kogwonton
Faith-Based Community
Posted by: Xynyx on Jul 12, 2006 7:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, Bush is a strong supporter of faith-based initiatives. He really should be able to throw his support behind this one.

» RE: Faith-Based Community Posted by: symcokid
jean jearman
Posted by: Jean Jearman on Jul 12, 2006 8:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am shocked that Alternet printed such a dishrag article. There are many books with facts to contradict the conclusions of Terry Allen.

Here's an experiment you can try at home
Posted by: Crazy H on Jul 12, 2006 8:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go buy yourself an acetylene torch and two steel beams. Lay the beams on the floor ten feet apart. Fire up the torch and play it on the end of one of the beams. Get it hot enough to melt. Now look at the other end of the beam – is it melting too? ("No") Now look over at the second beam – is it melting? ("No")

Now just think for a moment. The official hogwash would have you believe that thousands of tons of steel, the bulk of it hundreds of yards away from the fire and buried in a concrete heat sink all melted at the same time!

Yeah, that could happen. You'd merely have to heat all of Manhattan up to 2500 degrees Farenheit.

Years before Dumbya was elected, the neocons said they wanted "another Pearl Harbor." Nine months after the poseur is sworn into office, they get it.

Connect the dots.

» My bad Posted by: Crazy H
We will never know conclusively one way or the other
Posted by: tanstaafl28 on Jul 12, 2006 8:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The available evidence, pro or con, is not enough to draw any conclusions one way or the other. What we do know:

It would be exceedingly difficult to pull off such an "inside job" without someone learning the truth.

The government intelligence briefings seem to indicate that something was in the works involving airplanes and buildings, but nothing was done to quietly "beef up" security.

Most of the "evidence" was carted away and destroyed in a hurry (suspiciously so).

Government appointed investigation committees are
notoriously slipshod in their methods and their reporting

Not only has the Bush Administration made political hay into gold over the 9/11 attacks, but they're even more tight lipped about them than they are about everything else (which is to say so secretive nobody knows the truth from the leaks).

» wrong Posted by: Iconoclast421
Terry J. Allen has no concept of Government's "scientific" explaination
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Jul 12, 2006 8:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is typical "baffle them with BS" approach to our media which has misinformed the public for over 100 years. She provides no information on the Government's case and has shown no knowledge of it. Instead of in depth research of the government's case, she plays a shill that accepts whatever the government has for an explaination. That is too bad as it is well known that it's models are falsified and even so, show only a small chance that the buildings 1 and 2 would have come down and no possiblility that 7 would have come down (they ignore it). Alternet has been following this path for quite some time now, trying to misinform or discredit sources that include real scholars from MIT, Texas A&M, Clemson, Minnesota, BYU... that include detailed specifications from construction engineers and physics professors, mathemeticians, economists, social scientists, psychologists...

These people at Alternet have tried to put down Project Censored which is supported by people like Bill Moyers and Walter Cronkite. This site has become no better than the government shills at WaPo or the NYT.

gramps
Posted by: gramps on Jul 12, 2006 8:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like Colombo who usually had a good idea who the killer was shortly after examining the crime scene; my first thought after witnessing the attack on TV was that it was the Mossad.
Al Qaida has been penetrated by all of the major intelligence agencies and could not have done it without help from some government. After reading Ostrakav's book and knowing about the Israeli attack on the American Ship Liberty in interational waters, (the only attack on the United States since Pearl Harbor.) Like Peter Falk's Colombo I knew who the killer was shortly after the event and the problem was finding proof.

There is a hell of a lot more circumstancial evidence that Al Qaida was assisted by Rummy and Dick as well, than there was that Scott Peterson killed his wife. 9/11 was followed by the attacks on Afhganistan and Iraq. Both of these assaults would have had Bush and company in the dock by the Nuremberg Court. We are governed by criminals and Fascists. This is about as much a "conspiracy theory" as is the well proven theory of evolution by Darwin.

» Al Ciada Posted by: kogwonton
This guy's research sucks
Posted by: sln70 on Jul 12, 2006 8:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Right in the same documentary from which he got the exact Silverstein quote there is a demolition crewman saying, "We're getting ready to pull building 6"
Here's the video .. with BOTH quotes... Excerpt from PBS documentary

» RE: This guy's research sucks Posted by: concerned Canadian
Alex
Posted by: adent on Jul 12, 2006 8:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In terms of scientific reasoning, the author is mistaken. The theory 9/11 skeptics, such as David Ray Griffin, typically use is that 9/11 was "an inside job". This theory rests on many pieces of information. The more pieces of evidence supporting this theory, the stronger it is. But "debunking" or disproving a piece of evidence does not disprove the theory. In fact, there are many many many reasons to think 9/11 was an inside job. I was skeptical for a while, but what ultimately convinced me was the amazing coincidence of multiple wargames and drills being run on 9/11, including a NORAD hijacking exercise and an NRO plane into building drill.

Since then, I have learned a lot that has increased my confidence that 9/11 was an inside job.

I think now the evidence is overwhelming that the WTC was brought down by demolition, and we have a professor of engineering, Dr. Judy Wood, who has written a simple proof that the official WTC collapse story is wrong. Here is her piece:
http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

Here is an important companion piece to that article:
http://tinyurl.com/ljqmy

Further, I know David Ray Griffin has spoken to Judy Wood, so it is not true that Griffin has not consulted an engineer. I do not know when the author spoke to Griffen, but Dr. Wood contacted Dr. Griffin about a year ago. Dr. Griffin has also been in contact with Dr. Steven Jones, who is a professor physics and believes the towers were brought down by bombs and incendiaries.

In terms of WTC7, I ask that you watch videos of the collapse which are widely available on the internet. This is not a normal building collapse. The building comes down at free-fall speed and falls perfectly within its footprint. Some videos show flashes going off in the building before it comes down. There was some damage to WTC7 from the fall of WTC1 and WTC2, but this would not account for its amazing collapse, nor would the diesel fuel fires. It is also important to note that other large buildings around the WTC were badly damaged by debris from the collapse of the twin towers, but they didn't undergo total collapse. Yet the three major skyscapers owned by Larry Silverstein all collapsed completely on 9/11.

There is just so much evidence out there that indicates the official story is very wrong, and I think it is shameful that the author is trying to whitewash all this away.

» RE: Alex Posted by: ZombyWoof
it's evident only that Ms. Allen is pulling our chain
Posted by: concerned Canadian on Jul 12, 2006 8:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Despite Ms. Allen's best attempt to convince herself and others that the Bush admin. saw nothing, knew nothing and certainly did everything in its power to ensure that US citizens were being protected to the fullest extent possible on Sep. 11, her little article ends up convincing us only that her argument would fail in a freshman Logic class. She needs a refresher re ' begging the question' fallacy, specifically as it relates to the foundation of her piece - that there exists 'overwhelming evidence' that the Bush administration is NOT covering up its involvement in the 911 attacks. And then of course no such overwhelming evidence is forthcoming. Ok, so she's not into logic. What else could she mean? Let's see; in an ironic twist, her words point to the truth. Indeed, there is overwhelming evidence that the Bush admin is NOT covering up its involvement, at least not very well since we all seem to know about it, have suffered as a result of it, and intend not to be duped by the three monkey faction again.

Laymen are Easily Swayed by Flawed Arguments
Posted by: Jim Shaw on Jul 12, 2006 8:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A major reason that conspiracy theories take off is that laymen are easily swayed by flawed arguments. They lack the expertise to assess them properly, and are unlikely to imagine alternative explanations, for example, that the jet fuel didn't have to be hot enough to melt the steel in the towers, just hot enough to compromise it.

Also, people see one movie or read one book and jump on the conspiracy bandwagon, and they get their egos wrapped up in it, so then when somebody threatens the conspiracy thesis, they get terribly defensive and make fools of themselves. I would have a lot more respect for these people if they would acknowledge that they really don't know the truth of 9/11, and not get so hysterical when challenged. I recently ran into a 9//11 conspiracy buff who claimed that no commercial plane hit the Pentagon, that it was just a drone. When I told him that my sister lives in Alexandria, VA, and had friends who were stuck in traffic and witnessed the erratic approach of the plane, and that one of them had a piece of the plane fly through her open sunroof, he became angry and said that it must have been part of the drone. By the way, my sister also knows a woman who missed a business trip that involved that flight, and many of her coworkers were on that plane, people she has never seen again. What happened to those people? Did the government knock them off to preserve their alibi? Are they being held in a secret location? Give me a break!

» You must be a "Layman". Posted by: reprehensor
Conspiracy Theories/Hypotheses
Posted by: Ratskii on Jul 12, 2006 8:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author is either confused or attempting to spread confusion on the general subject of conspiracy theory. The Conspiracy Theory of History, which most historians don't believe, states that history is largely controled by conspiracy. However, I doubt if you would find many historians or students of history that would try to tell you that there are no conspiracies or that they have no effect on history.

I have known people who believe any conspiracy hypothesis that they are presented with, and I resent being lumped with them, as the author seems to be doing.

There are many areas of evidence that this country's media could have followed up. One is the claim that some of the people supposedly involved in hijacking the planes are still alive -- and in the case of one of them, attempting to prove his innocence of any involvement. A second would be to track down and interview as many as possible of the people, who had involvement in removing or disposing of the steel girders from the WTC towers, as can be located. It seems to me that it would be possible to get some idea of the condition of the metal and present those descriptions to engineers for analysis. The third area they could pursue would be to set up debates between engineers and scientists that have opposing views on the subject of the WTC towers collapse.

If just suggesting further investigation makes me a wingnut to some people, then I have to suggest that they are very insecure in their beliefs. The attempt to silence skeptics of the official version of 9.11, by calling them names and attempting to shame them, doesn't suggest objectivity to me.

And why are you worried about what the right thinks of us. They despise us anyway. This isn't going to make us look any worse (or better) in their eyes.

follow the $$$$
Posted by: hayduke1 on Jul 12, 2006 8:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Occam's razor?

Follow the money trail--who's profited from the actions of 9/11?

"Al Qaeda"? (and just why hasn't the long arm of the US brought to justice any of these "terrorists", besides those caught in the indiscriminate dragnet that led to Guantanomo?) The "attacks" brought universal condemnation to the group.

The Bush-cabal and the industrial/military complex? Hmmmm, seems these folks made a killing (figuratively and literally) out of the horrors of 9/11.

Dr Snyder
Posted by: Drmark on Jul 12, 2006 8:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the author has missed a big point...the Government's theory on 9/11 is a conspiracy theory
Perhaps the author's standards should be applied to the Government's theory. If the author had performed this task she would have come to the conclusion that there is no hard scientific evidence to support their theory...so we are nuts to try to seek the truth? I really believe that the author is the one who has faith in a conspiracy to support her own view of the world.
I looked into 9/11 because the FEMA and NIST reports very carefully laid out a potential cause...but had questionable engineering and scientific evidence to support their conclusions. The government has also denied requests to access their data and models used to support their conclusions so other researchers can verify their conclusions (this is how scientific work is done). Alternative sources are all that is left to examine.
When evidence provided by other people on scene (both high quality video and audio) is looked at carefully and you study how steel and concrete behave under the known temperatures of fire conditions present you cannot make these buildings collapse as they did without additional energy. Indeed, their collapse is singular in the history of fire in reinforced concrete and steel buildings and should make every engineer want to find out why.
The forensic evidence (partially melted columns, explosions, speed of collapse, pulverized concrete, etc) cannot be explained away...it begs for a consistent answer.

Bush just gave the OK to the Mossad:Alternet>just another MSM/Jewish disinformation site!
Posted by: ScottGregory on Jul 12, 2006 8:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing in this article addreses the overall unexplained causes for three hugh well built structures collapsing "in their footprints" on the same day, only two of which were hit by anything. WTC 7 had no great fires, only two on floors 7 and 12 I recall. Nothing that required evacuation of the building. And even 42,00 gallons of gasoline below ground level wouldn't produce a collapse in footprint.
No, the 9/11 crime against humanity was an inside job, with clear connection to the Israelis or some faction thereof.
And why hasn't Marvin Bush's company officers been prosecuted for tampering with a crime scene. It (the company) was ready with trucks to remove the 30' steel beams the provided the structure of WTC N&S

Notice the MSM/Jewish propaganda campaign; the movies Flight 93, the upcoming World Trade Center patriotic, ugly flag-waving; these two articles on alternet.org. I now have no doubt of the existence of an Israeli/Jewish 5th column here in the U.S., and this nation will not be righted until we are free of it.

» refreshing unapologetic racism Posted by: codingguy
» lots of other cases Posted by: harris
Dick Cheney and PNAC
Posted by: billyboy43 on Jul 12, 2006 8:52 AM   
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Dick Cheney and the Secret Service: Dick Cheney was running a completely separate chain of Command & Control via the Secret Service, assuring the paralysis of Air Force response on 9/11. The Secret Service has the technology to see the same radar screens the FAA sees in real time. They also have the legal authority and technological capability to take supreme command in cases of national emergency. Dick Cheney was the acting Commander in Chief on 9/11. The Air Force was running multiple war games on the morning of 9/11 simulating hijackings over the continental United States that included (at least) one "live-fly" exercise as well as simulations that placed "false blips" on FAA radar screens. These war games eerily mirrored the real events of 9/11 to the point of the Air Force running drills involving hijacked aircraft as the 9/11 plot actually unfolded. The war games & terror drills played a critical role in ensuring no Air Force fighter jocks - who had trained their entire lives for this moment - would be able to prevent the attacks from succeeding. These exercises were under Dick Cheney's management. As the 9/11 plot unfolded, it has been reported that Secret Service whisked Dick Cheney into an underground presidential bunker at 9:03. 1 This establishes that the Secret Service was in the loop giving orders by at least 9:03, and almost certainly much earlier, as we will show.Former counter-terrorism advisor Richard Clarke writes in Against All Enemies: "Secret Service had a system that allowed them to see what FAA's radar was seeing." The Kean Commission (also known as the 9/11 Commission) would have us believe that the chain of command on 9/11 was a complex web, but in reality the Secret Service had the authority to communicate presidential and vice presidential orders directly to fighter pilots in the air.Richard Clarke writes in Against All Enemies: "I was amazed at the speed of the decisions coming from Cheney and, through him, from Bush." This is to be expected. Everything was in place for the Commander in Chief to be calling all the shots as the 9/11 plot unfolded, but Bush was in an elementary school reading about goats with Secret Service agents right beside him. A crisis of this magnitude required a crisis plan, something the Neo-Liberals didn't have. The PNACers, including Dick Cheney, had such a plan: manufacture a crisis - one that had long been imagined as necessary by elite planners inside the national security state and use it to maintain permanent war to steal the world's last remaining hydrocarbons and temporarily stave off the Peak Oil crisis. On May 8, 2001 - four months prior to 9/11 - the president placed Dick Cheney in charge of "[A]ll federal programs dealing with weapons of mass destruction consequence management within the Departments of Defense, Health and Human Services, Justice, and Energy, the Environmental Protection Agency, and other federal agencies…" This included all "training and planning" which needed to be "seamlessly integrated, harmonious and comprehensive" in order to "maximize effectiveness." This mandate created the Office of National Preparedness in FEMA, overseen by Dick Cheney. Remember, on 9/11 the Bush administration claimed it had "no idea" aircraft would be used as weapons. Additional war games on 9/11 included Northern Vigilance, an exercise that pulled Air Force fighters from the east coast of the United States up into Canada and Alaska simulating an attack out of Russia. All of those fighters were rendered useless as the 9/11 plot unfolded - too far away to respond. Additionally, Tripod II was a bio-terror exercise being set-up on the west side of lower Manhattan, reportedly scheduled to begin the next day. This exercise was being coordinated with FEMA and the Department of Justice - two of the agencies placed directly under Cheney's control in May of 2001 by presidential mandate.

» RE: Dick Cheney and PNAC Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: Dick Cheney and PARAGRAPHS Posted by: LeonDion
» RE: Dick Cheney and PNAC Posted by: bschuhle
» RE: "peak oil" is real silly Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: "peak oil" is a HOAX Posted by: harris
Asking for an investigation is not a conspiracy
Posted by: mn on Jul 12, 2006 8:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have three questions that I asked just one week after 9-11. They have still not been answered:

1) Who was flying the plane that hit the Pentagon? A Cessna pilot who trained on 757s in a simulator? Wow, he's a fast learner, he managed to drop from 7K ft. to the ground in less than two minutes in multi-G corkscrew descending turn that hit his target spot on. Could this person have been a US-trained Saudi military pilot who went off the reservation? Did the CIA know he had terrorist connections? (That last part is the rhetorical part of the qustion.

2) Millions of dollars were invested in the US stock market on shorting AA and UA stocks in the weeks prior to 9-11. Since US intelligence watches investing behavior very closely, what did they make of this activity, especially since the gov't had recently been warned that something was up? The SEC said they would investigate this activity and find out who knew enough prior to 9-11 to invest in the destruction. I'm still waiting for the report.

3) Whatever happened to Bldg. 7, the organizations that were housed there (CIA, FBI, SEC--with Enron records waiting to be pawed through for the coming investigation, Secret Service, FEMA, New York gov't, plus more) certainly makes me want a clear understanding of why that building fell down. Still don't have a good explanation.

Until my 3 questions are answered, my gov't is a criminal enterprise and I don't trust it anymore that I would trust the Third Reich. These are dangerous killers. Be very careful.

Truth
Posted by: rudyaub on Jul 12, 2006 8:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
www.rudyshomepage.com/topten.htm

the reality
Posted by: richardpmendola on Jul 12, 2006 8:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The harsh reality is that 42% of Americans believe our government had a hand in 9-11, or at least turned a blind eye. While a small number of people do see conspiracies all the time and everywhere, the total number is staggering. To hold such a belief is a strong statement of their perception of our leaders. They do not see our leaders as merely wrong, incompetent, misguided, mistaken, or power hungry. They see them as evil.

That a significant minority of Americans distrusts their leaders so profoundly bespeaks a deep and bleeding divide. Friends, our nation is in serious trouble. 42 percent. There will be no vote on what actually happened on 9-11. What has happened since, though, has been power politics without so much as a nod to consensus. “For us or against us” within and without.

In the days following 9-11 we had the compassion of the world and a strong sense of togetherness. And we squandered it all.

» RE: the reality Posted by: deo508
» Followers Posted by: LeonDion
» RE: the reality Posted by: sln70
Bush involvement in 9/11?
Posted by: tap17x on Jul 12, 2006 8:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The main conspiracy was (and still is) a coverup. The Bushits won't let the truth out concerning the pre-9/11 warnings, the investigation, and flying the Saudis out. There are plenty of secrets to be investigated without claiming that the Bushits actually caused 9/11. But I'm glad that many voters think they did it - anything that makes them vote against Republicans is fine with me. The R's are a bunch of evil, hypocritical, corrupt, lying assholes, especially those who still support the Imbecile-in-Chief.

the "grassy knoll" conspiracy theory
Posted by: Ghoulman on Jul 12, 2006 8:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... and some professor from 9/11 Truth or whatever is creating just that... there is no chance for evidence or indication of just how the Towers came down on 9/11... so hey, speculate all you want. Those professors will be selling you books and going on lectures about it for your kids into the far future. It's an old scam.

9/11 was suspicious, but not for any of those reasons.

Anyone really interested in any foreknowledge Dick Cheney might have had regarding the sequence of events needs to ask real questions.

What truely happened to Flight 93? And how the frack does ones cell phone work on a plane in 2001???

How do 4 hi-jacket planes fly around US airspace for so long? Especially when one smashes into a World Trade Tower?

Why were fighter-jets not in the air immediately?

Why was NORAD on mock hi-jack "war games" on this particular date?

How the frack does any plane get near the Pentagon? Ok, because it was at 7000 feet. Then riddle me this... how does a guy who trained in a cesna drop a massive airjet 7000 feet, in a spiral decent, skim the ground at 30+ feet, and smash into the Pentagons second floor???

Ask yourself, if Osama Bin Laden was "determined to attack within the US" and the Bush/Cheney Administration seemed to ignore that warning...maybe they were just keeping it quiet. They wanted it to succeed? Maybe they had no idea of the scale, maybe Dick was planning it for a while (FBI told by Cheney's office to stop surveillance of a man who would become on of the hijackers), maybe the connections Osama had to the CIA in Afganistan aren't as much in the past as we thought. These are all questions we can find answers too, that people still alive can answer. Just how the Towers came down is buried and will never come to light. It's a dead end.

Why are people constantly looking at the "grassy knoll"? ... about that, it seems clear, the fourth shooter was on the train bridge. ;p

The how and why of the Towers comming down doesn't lead to anything, how could it? And thus you have a "conspiracy theory"... a circular argument.

» RE: the "grassy knoll" conspiracy theory Posted by: concerned Canadian
» RE: the "grassy knoll" conspiracy theory Posted by: concerned Canadian
» RE: the "grassy knoll" conspiracy theory Posted by: concerned Canadian
Just Keep Telling Yourself That, Terry
Posted by: terradea on Jul 12, 2006 9:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Listen cupcake, either you have been paid off or you are completely inept when it comes to research. And, lack of common sense is a terrible characteristic for an investigative writer.

Ignore everything else (and that would take a huge amount of faith), ask yourself: how did planes hitting the two towers at different times at different areas result in both towers going down in the exact same manner at nearly the exact same time at a rate of speed that is consistent with freefall?

Want some TRUTH?
Posted by: rudyaub on Jul 12, 2006 9:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
9/12/2001 "Today our nation saw evil." George W. Bush. We all lived through 9/11...no need to recap that day, so let’s just get right to it-
On September 11th, 2001, the ruling class (government, CEO's) of this country attacked New York. The Pentagon was a diversion and Pennsylvania was unintended, someone called a passenger and they tried to bust into the cockpit...the perpetrators had no choice but to bring it down. The crash in Pennsylvania was never supposed to have been known. This is my THEORY, based on my knowledge of the facts. It explains why we weren't allowed near the crash site, why we weren't allowed to photograph the wreckage...there was something about that crash they didn't want us to see. What follows is my investigation and conclusions. If anything below this point is not credited or quoted, you are more than welcome to consider it fiction. It is possible that Arabs were on those planes, but highly unlikely. If they were they could have literally been told anything to get them on the planes...but to say they were Muslims looking for martyrdom is plain crazy. Many of the suspects were known drug users and many hung out with CIA connected people. These men did not live their lives according to the laws of Islam. The planes were controlled by remote control, most likely by the worlds leading experts in remote control flying- NORAD. Amazing how our government has kept NORAD out of the spotlight completely, considering it's their job to protect the skies of America. When you look at the big picture you realize 9/11 was only a part of the plan. What was the plan? Control of the Middle East, genocide of the Iraqi people and Muslims living in America and most likely, World War III. Anyone with a good knowledge of history can tell you that everything that has happened to us during 2000-2004 has all happened before...from "surprise attacks," to media propaganda. Why? Why would they attack their own country? Simple: to justify a war, to loot the U.S. treasury, to insider trade, steal oil, deal drugs (yes, deal drugs,) and create a police state. They aren't lying when they tell you they want to stamp out terrorism. They do. Terrorists are the enemy of governments. Anyone that opposes a government is labeled a terrorist. Anyone who sees these people as the criminals they most certainly are, are dubbed a terrorist. This whole thing is an attempt by the world community to once and for all gain control over the people of the world.
The attack on the WTC knocked out local television and gave New Yorkers no choice but to turn to Cable News to stay informed on what was happening. On 9/11 they were subjected to immediate propaganda that as of 2005 they have yet to shake off.
The first thing I noticed in the 9/12 edition of Newsday was a story they ran and never touched again: the collapse of WTC building 7. I should mention that over the years I had completely forgotten about this building, thanks to the media's constant onslaught of crap designed to distract our attention. Giuliani had fortified one floor of the building to withstand a terrorist attack and the building was dubbed "Rudy's Bunker." This bunker was a multimillion dollar project and the building also housed the Secret Service. In the confusion many of us didn't give the collapse of this building much thought, but the fact is it suffered no structural damage from falling debris. Somehow it caught on fire and collapsed exactly the way the two towers went down...straight down, exactly like a controlled demolition. Giuliani said he left the building 10 minutes before it collapsed at 5:20pm. At 4:47 Con Edison shut off a power substation in the basement of the building, shutting off power to all of lower Manhattan. Many officers were still in the building when it went down.

» Want some TRUTH? Part 2 Posted by: rudyaub
» Want some TRUTH? Part 3 Posted by: rudyaub
RJW
Posted by: RJW on Jul 12, 2006 9:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps in Mr. Allen's "months" of research, he should have consulted the official story field manual, a.k.a. the 9-11 Commission Report. Had he done so, he would have realized that there is NO official explanation for the demise of WTC 7, which collapsed in classic contolled demolition fashion at 5:20pm on 9-11-01

While you're at it Mr. Allen, read the passage to Goodman and Chomsky, they're a little light in the information department as well.

Faith movement avoids uncomfortable truths
Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 12, 2006 9:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 9/11 faith movement are just avoiding uncomfortable truths. The truth is wack and evil, but it is also well documented and sad. The truth is that al Qaeda is a US made beast as a result of the campaign to bring down the Soviet Union. When the Russians mentioned that it was fueling militant islam in half the world, people laughed. When others said Saudi Arabia was fomenting militant islam around the world, people were watching TV.

Clinton buried his head after the first WTC bombings, and took little serious action to roll up al Qaeda. I do think the government knew about it, and I think Condi's testimony was the lamest ass-covering I have heard since my seven year old claimed the dog ate his essay. But her behaviour was sinister in the 'I'm not going to tell the truth because I'm in deep shit' sort of way, not in the 'I'm a lizard and I need to help the other lizards rule the earth on behalf of aliens'.

Governments, when the screw up big time, cover ass big time. It is human nature. 9/11 was an almighty screw up, and those responsible were many. Egos were at stake, careers, whole agencies. No wonder they have tried to change the story. I have witnessed the same first-hand happen in the UK. Just muky ass covering. I don't like it and I think we would make more progress by avoiding the loopy theories and just address the bold truth: a lot of people were incompetent, and their hides need to feel some heat.

Every troll twitch to Cuss/Deny/Hate/Interfer in N.E.O. murder Questions, proves WashDC GUILTY
Posted by: Meremark on Jul 12, 2006 9:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
--

Nine Eleven Op (n.e.o.)-murders of 3000 citizens by 'Igor' Cheney, with a joystick, in the torture cellar, as managed by Geo Hitler Worker Bush (working behind a mentally retarded son, that foil of an ideal imbecile witness who literally can say 'I know NUTHing'), proves PentagoNazis GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY every day that

- crime scene evidence stays secret (photos of clean up)

- questions are not answered, and

- trolls sweat stupidfoam jumping up and down and in the way shouting 'no questions,' 'don't ask questions,' 'YOU are under question, not the N.E.O. murderers.'

Complete proof that GHWB's Gemini Towers Trick was made-for-TV staged explosions, rigged in advance, is high-school-Physics simple, (which fools the jocks, cheerleaders, retards, and boob tube suckers):
The Potential ENERGY of plane fuel flame plus building gravity DOES NOT EQUAL the Kinetic ENERGY released in the evidence period.

When you see a standard firecracker *pop* a standard red brick into an ending pile of dust, you know something in at least one part was not standard -- not enough ENERGY, no matter what any 'witness' says, no matter where the brick sat, no matter who set it up. It was rigged. Firecracker. Red brick. Pile of 50-micron dust. THAT, in terms of familiar heft objects, is the ENERGY ratio of plane to tower mass to debris. The ENERGY Equation DOES NOT BALANCE. Smiple physics -- ERROR, TILT, GUILTY Hitler Worker WWII flyboy'fraidy pilot crew killer GUILTY Gemini GUILTY -- simple physics, NOT ENOUGH ENERGY. Ask Isaac Newton, he's dead yet even he can tell. The brick was rigged.

The skyscrapers were rigged with explosives. Hey, trolls and denial sufferers: You get a million dollars (at above link) when you prove NO explosives added needed or rigged. Hey, that's simple, right? Get out your pencil, paper and physics formulas. Come one, come all ages, come all nations, come all times. A million bucks for you for paperwork proof.

(As for the Pentagon-Reichstag-Fire fiction, one look and you must admit, the plane don't fit ... SOMEbody's lying.)

Hell yes the N.E.O. murderers keep seeing their crime displayed and discussed and detailed, on AlterNet and EveryWhere. Most people polled agree. Bushism is Nine Eleven Op mass murdering.

Else you gotta think they came up with all their Nazi of America -- police state 'laws,' secret concentration camp torture-experiment kill chambers, invading sovereign nations, puppet press propaganda, phone taps and thought control, for instances -- all in the first minute after some accidental plane tragedy nobody could have anticipated ...

NOT cocainebrain-damaged idiot Bushboy -- the dad deserted one cockpit and crew, his son deserted the whole damn military honor. Sins of the father, that's all I'm saying, sins of the father.

Notice no trolls touch my comment. The truth melts them and they stay away.

Just a thought.......
Posted by: NeilDeal on Jul 12, 2006 9:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I personally wonder if the Bush regime knew that the attack was coming and allowed it because they thought that they could capitalize on it.

I just read that the Bush regimes prescious domestic spying program was actually started up BEFORE 911. If this is such a valuable tool needed to protect americans, how come Bushco didn't notice the plot? Answer me that!

Hell, it sounds like everyone knew it was coming.
What happened??

» RE: Just a thought....... Posted by: rudyaub
If you can't take the heat
Posted by: famouspipeliner on Jul 12, 2006 9:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is it the authors' position that burning diesel fuel generated enough heat to cause the structural integrity of WTC 7 to fail? If so, please support with scientific evidence. If not, then there are other factors at work.
Is it the authors' position that flying debris hit WTC 7 in some crucial structural point and caused the building to collapse? If so, please explain exactly how this happened. If not, it is merely an unsubstantiated assertion.
Is it the authors' position that everything in the official report is absolutely unquestionably true? If so, why are there so many unanswered questions? If not, why should the questioners be smeared?
I believe that Alternet posted this article to generate discussion and should be commended for that. Those who can't take the heat will be the first to jump out of the frying pan.

» RE: If you can't take the heat Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: If you can't take the heat Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: see Nat'l Geo episode Posted by: deo508
» RE: If you can't take the heat Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: If you can't take the heat Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: If you can't take the heat Posted by: Conservasaurus
» You can't handle the truth Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: You can't handle the truth Posted by: Conservasaurus
Faith movement avoids uncomfortable truths
Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 12, 2006 9:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 9/11 faith movement are just avoiding uncomfortable truths. The truth is wack and evil, but it is also well documented and sad. The truth is that al Qaeda is a US made beast as a result of the campaign to bring down the Soviet Union. When the Russians mentioned that it was fueling militant islam in half the world, people laughed. When others said Saudi Arabia was fomenting militant islam around the world, people were watching TV.

Clinton buried his head after the first WTC bombings, and took little serious action to roll up al Qaeda. I do think the government knew about it, and I think Condi's testimony was the lamest ass-covering I have heard since my seven year old claimed the dog ate his essay. But her behaviour was sinister in the 'I'm not going to tell the truth because I'm in deep shit' sort of way, not in the 'I'm a lizard and I need to help the other lizards rule the earth on behalf of aliens'.

Governments, when the screw up big time, cover ass big time. It is human nature. 9/11 was an almighty screw up, and those responsible were many. Egos were at stake, careers, whole agencies. No wonder they have tried to change the story. I have witnessed the same first-hand happen in the UK. Just muky ass covering. I don't like it and I think we would make more progress by avoiding the loopy theories and just address the bold truth: a lot of people were incompetent, and their hides need to feel some heat.

» Let's face it though.. Posted by: sln70
Faith movement avoids uncomfortable truths
Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 12, 2006 9:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 9/11 faith movement are just avoiding uncomfortable truths. The truth is wack and evil, but it is also well documented and sad. The truth is that al Qaeda is a US made beast as a result of the campaign to bring down the Soviet Union. When the Russians mentioned that it was fueling militant islam in half the world, people laughed. When others said Saudi Arabia was fomenting militant islam around the world, people were watching TV.

Clinton buried his head after the first WTC bombings, and took little serious action to roll up al Qaeda. I do think the government knew about it, and I think Condi's testimony was the lamest ass-covering I have heard since my seven year old claimed the dog ate his essay. But her behaviour was sinister in the 'I'm not going to tell the truth because I'm in deep shit' sort of way, not in the 'I'm a lizard and I need to help the other lizards rule the earth on behalf of aliens'.

Governments, when the screw up big time, cover ass big time. It is human nature. 9/11 was an almighty screw up, and those responsible were many. Egos were at stake, careers, whole agencies. No wonder they have tried to change the story. I have witnessed the same first-hand happen in the UK. Just muky ass covering. I don't like it and I think we would make more progress by avoiding the loopy theories and just address the bold truth: a lot of people were incompetent, and their hides need to feel some heat.

Faith movement avoids uncomfortable truths
Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 12, 2006 9:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 9/11 faith movement are just avoiding uncomfortable truths. The truth is wack and evil, but it is also well documented and sad. The truth is that al Qaeda is a US made beast as a result of the campaign to bring down the Soviet Union. When the Russians mentioned that it was fueling militant islam in half the world, people laughed. When others said Saudi Arabia was fomenting militant islam around the world, people were watching TV.

Clinton buried his head after the first WTC bombings, and took little serious action to roll up al Qaeda. I do think the government knew about it, and I think Condi's testimony was the lamest ass-covering I have heard since my seven year old claimed the dog ate his essay. But her behaviour was sinister in the 'I'm not going to tell the truth because I'm in deep shit' sort of way, not in the 'I'm a lizard and I need to help the other lizards rule the earth on behalf of aliens'.

Governments, when the screw up big time, cover ass big time. It is human nature. 9/11 was an almighty screw up, and those responsible were many. Egos were at stake, careers, whole agencies. No wonder they have tried to change the story. I have witnessed the same first-hand happen in the UK. Just muky ass covering. I don't like it and I think we would make more progress by avoiding the loopy theories and just address the bold truth: a lot of people were incompetent, and their hides need to feel some heat.

Faith movement avoids uncomfortable truths
Posted by: Bobsays on Jul 12, 2006 9:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 9/11 faith movement are just avoiding uncomfortable truths. The truth is wack and evil, but it is also well documented and sad. The truth is that al Qaeda is a US made beast as a result of the campaign to bring down the Soviet Union. When the Russians mentioned that it was fueling militant islam in half the world, people laughed. When others said Saudi Arabia was fomenting militant islam around the world, people were watching TV.

Clinton buried his head after the first WTC bombings, and took little serious action to roll up al Qaeda. I do think the government knew about it, and I think Condi's testimony was the lamest ass-covering I have heard since my seven year old claimed the dog ate his essay. But her behaviour was sinister in the 'I'm not going to tell the truth because I'm in deep shit' sort of way, not in the 'I'm a lizard and I need to help the other lizards rule the earth on behalf of aliens'.

Governments, when the screw up big time, cover ass big time. It is human nature. 9/11 was an almighty screw up, and those responsible were many. Egos were at stake, careers, whole agencies. No wonder they have tried to change the story. I have witnessed the same first-hand happen in the UK. Just muky ass covering. I don't like it and I think we would make more progress by avoiding the loopy theories and just address the bold truth: a lot of people were incompetent, and their hides need to feel some heat.

Evidence of accidental origin?
Posted by: YogiBear on Jul 12, 2006 9:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many people prefer to believe a Procrustean conspiracy

Uh, until you have evidence otherwise, I'd suggest you stick to political conspiracies, dude. What a way to eff up the beginning of an article.

Close-Mindedness Is Not Only a Conservative Weakness
Posted by: Welfl on Jul 12, 2006 9:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know, if so many supposed liberals are this incredibly blind to the overwhelming evidence that 9/11 was -- to a greater or lesser degree -- an inside job by an administration they all despise and consider evil, or, at the very, very, very least, that it is painfully obvious that 9/11 did not happen the way Philip Zelikow's 9/11 Commission Report says it did (not even close), then I can assure you that there is absolutely no hope of EVER enlightening conservatives on any issue regarding the Bush Administration's criminal/dictatorial behavior (and we need to enlighten some of them, or else nothing will ever change).

Let me rephrase that: If certain mainstream liberals refuse to have an open mind (even for a brief time) on the blatant flaws, lies and inconsistencies in Philip Zelikow's 9/11 Commission Report, regardless of who really engineered the 9/11 attacks, then the vast majority of mainstream conservatives will never heed the warnings of sites like Alternet on such issues as Iraq, Iran, immigration (no, wait, lots of liberals naively, foolishly trust the evil Bush Administration on immigration), environment, oil, Halliburton, the Carlyle Group, the NSA spying scandals, Social Security, pharmaceutical companies, reproductive rights, privacy rights, internment camps in the U.S., the Constitution, global warming, prisoner torture, violating the Geneva Convention, and two stolen elections (soon to be three and four because so many democrats and liberals refuse to see it, and because so many liberal web sites give it zero coverage). The list could go on and on.

If certain liberals are this stubborn in the face of overwhelming evidence that the official story of 9/11 is a joke (once again, regardless of who the perpetrators were), then Alternet writers and editors are wasting their very valuable time and our internet bandwidth trying to enlighten the generally uninformed, lazy populace (not all of whom are conservatives, obviously) about the Bush Administration.

In the interest of 1.) a free press, 2.) the truly free exchange of ideas in a democracy and 3.) equal time, concepts that I'm sure Alternet believes in (basically, it's what they preach every day), they should play fair and give at least one 9/11 Scholar (by that, I mean a respected professor and/or author, not some amateur who couldn't argue his way out of a set of monkey bars) an opportunity to present the 9/11 Truth Movement's side of the story here at Alternet. There is no shortage of such people. You can even preface it with a disclaimer that his or her beliefs do not necessarily represent your own. So far, on this one issue, you have conducted yourselves just like the neocon mainstream media. You have been blatantly one-sided on this issue without presenting any cogent arguments as to why your beliefs are accurate and provable. If the 9/11 Scholar's editorial is weak, it will be obvious to one and all. What is there to be afraid of, Alternet?

» WOO-HOO! Smackdown over here! Posted by: LeonDion
Take your blinders off and actually consider ALL of the evidence!
Posted by: lightbringer on Jul 12, 2006 9:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't believe that Alternet would even post such a dismissive and inadequately researched piece as this. The evidence uncovered from myriad sources over the past 4 1/2 years is extremely compelling (see the book "The War on Freedom" for just one example). The videos of the towers collapsing and the Pentagon being struck blow holes right through the official story. Beyond that, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming:
- The highly suspicious stock trading of the affected airlines in the days prior to 9/11
- the warnings numerous government officials received in the days prior to 9/11 to not fly that day
- the lack of wreckage of the flight crashing in Pennsylvania,
- the hole in the Pentagon too small for the plane that was supposed to have struck it
- the fact that at least 7 of the 20 "hijackers" identified as being on the planes have been found alive and unconnected to the events of 9/11
- the farfetched explanation of why NORAD failed to follow its Standard Operating Procedure for when planes are hijacked
- the mention of the need for such a "Pearl Harbor-like" event to galvanize support for war in the Middle East in the Project for A New American Century report, which was created and supported by many of the top Bush Admin Defense officials
- Bush waiting for the second plane to hit the towers before responding...

These are just a few off of the top of my head. To dismiss this and the rest of the tremendous body of evidence and highly suspicious circumstances, one's mind must be completely closed to even considering the possibility of government complicity. Either that, or you're in cahootz with those responsible...

"Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary"
Posted by: rkewen on Jul 12, 2006 10:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Silly me, I assumed that after a statement like that someone would actually cite or mention some evidence - but no, I guess Terry is some kind of god and we just have to take everything he/she says on faith..........not!
This article sucks! It claims to debunk various theories but fails entirely to back up a single statement that it makes. I'm not sure why Alternet even bothered to publish this excuse for an article, unless as a poster or two above suggested it fosters discussion.

Some say that the Bush administration is too incompetent to have planned and excecuted the events of 9-11. However I think they are competent enough to have done what they could to let it happen (stand down NORAD, not arrest or queston the plotters before September 11 in spite of information about them and their plans). They are certainly venal enough to have seen how the success of Bin Laden, Mossad or whoever got the ball rolling on 9-11 would play into their plans to militarily try to take control of the Middle East and its oil.

As Woodward said before he became part of the criminal conspiracies he used to expose - follow the money - or Who Benefits?

Israel has benefited by getting the US involved militarily in the Mid East, Silverstein apparently benefited thanks to gold mine insurance preparations, The Bu$h Crime family has benefited by creating the Urinary Expletive - Bush was a pathetic little underachieving frat boy pretending to be prez, until he got to be COMMANDER IN CHIEF - Halliburton and Dead Eye Dick have been rolling in benefits, Rumsfeld makes millions from fear as well - and on it goes. It cost Colin Powell his self-respect, and 3000 Americans (and others) their lives, but compared to pure power and billions of dollars that's cheap to these guys who believe in nothing but power and their own greed.

What about the puts against UAL and the Pentagon being hit on the wrong side?
Posted by: yellow on Jul 12, 2006 10:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There were the puts to sell short against United Airlines shortly before the attacks and the fact that the Pentagon was hit where there was little damage and loss of life given the renovation being done and it was an awkward place to strike. A realistic area to hit would have been the wing not under renovation which was more accessible and out in the open! These things should be considered!

The Bush Adminstration couldn't be involved!
Posted by: xbj on Jul 12, 2006 10:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The rationale is "They'd only been in office for a short time." Or "Bush is an idiot; incompetent; he'd never have the smarts to pull off something like that."

Which is exactly why they left him sitting, like a moron, in a room full of third graders, reading "My Pet Goat." Sending a very subtle joke message to their elite cronies throughout the world as to who really was in charge, and where Dubyah belonged during such an operation. A message missed by all except who it was intended for, including Bush himself. These guys really slap themselves on the back for their wit.

The mastermind, if there can be one to blame behind 9-11, is Bush's father, George Herbert Walker "Poppy" Bush. Together with his cronies Cheney and Rumsfeld, the three hatched the plan, enlisting the help of their neocon allies to evangelize it throughout the 90's through "The Project for a New American Century" and other sources. And this plan went back to the very day Bush41 realized the American People had thrown him in the garbage in favor of Clinton. This required not just action, but revenge; revenge against the voters, WHO NEVER AGAIN WOULD BE ALLOWED TO CHOOSE AN ELECTED OFFICIAL OF HIGH OFFICE, and revenge against the United States as a whole, in the form of the World Trade Center and the people who lost their lives there. And finally, revenge against Saddam. Poppy believed that the American People had thrown him over in favor of Clinton because he was, as SNL portrayed time and time again, a "wimp", because he hadn't finished the job by marching all the way into Baghdad and taking Saddam. By God, he would insure that Cheney and Rumsfeld would do this, and didn't give a damn at that point if his idiot cokehead loser son got the credit. (OR the credit for the debacle EITHER, as it conveniently turned out for Poppy, as he publicly criticized "his son's" policies, leading to their further estrangement.)

And along the merry way, there were TRILLIONS to steal from the American taxpayers by the tried and true Bush method for a century; the business of war. Setting up and funding BOTH sides, setting them up against each other, these are readily available historical facts. The Bush family funded Hitler, and once this was made illegal, got into the offense contracting business here at "home." And believe that there is no greater gravy train than offense contracting; stealing trillions with no oversight whatsoever in a foreign country overseas, insured by a certain mob tribute percentage making its way back into the coffers of the ruling war GOP party.

The smoking gun facts are all over the place... actual video of thermite being ignited at the WTC (it's either that or someone was ARC WELDING in the corner of the building moments before it fell... explain THAT one away, Bushnuts.) There are photos of the support towers obviously cut by thermite. There's the firemen claiming they heard the blasts, and network commentators talking about "bombs in the building." Then there's the sticky problem of the Bushes actually having the unmitigated gall TO MAKE MONEY WHILE THEY PLANTED THE THERMITE CHARGES by having brother Marvin Bush GETTING THE CONTRACT FOR SECURITY AT THE WTC and closing down several floors of the WTC just weeks before 9-11.

You have to hand it to them, that's BALLS.

Look, there is more than enough evidence out there, that if this was a free Democracy, if this really was still America and not Nazi Amerika, they would have been tried for murder and hung for treason YEARS ago. Not months, not weeks, not days, YEARS ago.

Seek, and ye shall find out exactly how they did it. There are few mysteries left out there regarding what happened to those people on that day; they were most likely gassed with Sarin, right along with the tiny handful of patsies thoughtfully provided by Osama, Bush's Number One Terrorist shill, and his friends the Saudis. (cont.)

This is psychotic
Posted by: YogiBear on Jul 12, 2006 10:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That the administration ignored the dangers cited by its own counter-terrorism people is obvious. That it used the atatcks to further its own political wet dream agenda is crystal. That it was complicit in an engineered conspiracy that would require hundreds, if not thousands of particpants before and after the fact, including those who lost family and friends, is absurd.

» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: xbj
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: SonnyDr
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: Welfl
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: AnimalMachine
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: Welfl
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: brunowe
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: Welfl
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: Welfl
» Somewhat cherry-picked. Posted by: brunowe
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: xbj
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: xbj
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: xbj
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: xbj
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: xbj
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: xbj
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: This is psychotic Posted by: xbj
» This is not. Posted by: reprehensor
» RE: This is not. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: This is not. Posted by: xbj
» RE: This is not. Posted by: deo508
Poll mis-cited
Posted by: YogiBear on Jul 12, 2006 10:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By the way, this article is sensationalist the way it uses the Zogby poll. What Zogby showed was that while some people beleive the Bush administration was intentionally complicit, others think it was negligently complicit, and not necessarily part of a conspiracy. Why opinion writers can't get this right is beyond me, unless they are as carless or stupid as the members of the Bush administration itself.

Here's the original poll:

http://www.911truth.org/images/
911TruthZogbyPollFinalReport.htm

Read thoroughly...
Posted by: bambic on Jul 12, 2006 10:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those of you who have referred to Terry Allen are not thorough readers: she is a "Ms." not a "Mr."---check out her credentials at the end of her "article"...
I find her a blight on woman-kind, of whom I am one.
Point two: does anyone know about Scott Forbes radio interview? He worked for Feduciary Trust in one of the towers. On or around 9-8-01, he and his co-workers were told that there would be a "power-down" for 36-48 hours, so they'd better download and save stuff that was crucial...
He claims he saw men in jumpsuits with roll after roll of cable and other equipment that week-end. He insists he made calls and wrote letters about this, but they were never acknowledged.
I'd like to hear this British man's interview again, but I can't remember where I heard it---does this ring any bells?

» RE: read thoroughly... Posted by: aurora2484
I believe....
Posted by: Voicedude on Jul 12, 2006 10:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I consider myself an analytical man AND a spiritual man.
I listen, I read, I investigate, I watch some 'docu'-TV (History Channel, National Geographic, etc.), and sometimes I buy it and sometimes take what is said with a grain of salt.
....and I PROCESS it all.

I believe some things because there is overwhelming evidence to support it.
I believe some things despite the 'presented' evidence because there's enough doubt to question the 'popular' belief.
I believe some things purely on faith. Call it a 'gut reaction', if you wish.

And yet I believe some things are exposed to us after careful scrutiny and spin - especially in today's world of instant ENG (Electronic News Gathering) where the phrase 'film at eleven' is obsolete. I also believe that the corporations and governments are not above controlling the flow and flavor of information we receive for their OWN capitalistic desires.

I believe that we (America, as a nation) brought 9/11 on ourselves with our arrogance, our world behavior, AND by getting into bed with unethical loons like Bin Laden (our CIA trained him) and Saddam (Rummy helped us GIVE him WMDs!)

I believe that the Bush adminstration had all the advance info and means to know of and prevent 9/11, but did not take it seriously (remember, Billy Mitchell correctly predicted an attack on the U.S. by the Japanese by planes over a decade before it happened - and they COURT-MARTIALED him!). I believe Bush stood on the bodies of those in the fallen WTC and started to USE 9/11 for his own agenda. These agendas included power, money, and more old crony-ism. Instead of using that event to UNIFY the country, I believe he used it to EXPLOIT the country.

I believe the owner of his recently acquired WTC DID decide to 'pull' Tower 5 - purely for greed (the insurance money). Like Bush, he seized an opportunity when it came along.

I also believe that people are just GREEDY enough to believe anything, just so long as you say what they think they want to hear. Just say that it's for THEM or the country, and suddenly ANYTHING can be justified. And we, America, WANTED to believe our new President didn't really steal the election, that he COULD unite us, and that we would all work together to ensure this could not happen again.

But those who believed that were wrong. Bush didn't unite us - he divided us, like no time since Viet Nam.

And yet to say that these men are not just evil (as in lying, self-serving, war profiteers with no real concern for the future beyond their reign and gain of wealth), but EVIL (as in eating dead babies in service to their Majesty Satan) is a MAJOR stretch of logic. The idea that such a person could live that kind of secret life while under the scrutiny of today's media ("Cheney dropped in 'F-bomb' on the Senate floor today...") without ever being discovered is a plot for "24" or the rest of the out-of-ideas Hollywood, but not real life.

And then to suggest that ANYONE - even scum like Wolfy, Rummy, Karl, Dick, and the 'Dub' - would deliberately kill thousands of innocent Americans purely for selfish reasons...

Well, I believe THAT is simply beyond reason.

» RE: I believe.... Posted by: bambic
» RE: I believe.... Posted by: IanA
» How about 30,000 Iraqi civilians? Posted by: reprehensor
» RE: I believe.... Posted by: FedererFan
"evidence" yes, let's look at the evidence
Posted by: anniedine on Jul 12, 2006 10:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, but wait, we can't, it was mostly trucked away and destroyed.

The largest, most important, most sensitive, fragile, and meaningful CRIME SCENE in the history of crime investigation was intentionally and haphazardly demolished instead of preserved and painstakingly investigated.

THAT is the main reason for so many people to believe there was something the government desperately wanted to hide.

Alternet Dogma on 911? Why the crusade?
Posted by: willhall on Jul 12, 2006 10:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why, exactly, does Alternet make it its business to side with the government and ridicule 9-11 truth theorists? Why is Alternet waging a debunking crusade instead of reporting the controvery and presenting the evidence of the unanswered questions?

I mean, poking holes in Alex Jones is not a responsible approach to covering the 9-11 controversy. It's like shooting fish in a barrell -- he hardly represents the most compelling of the 9-11 truth theorists. Holding him up to represent the movement, then shooting him down, is irresponsible journalism. It's like Fox news interviewing anti-semites as representatives of the anti-Iraq war movement to discredit the movement as a whole.

Why doesn't Alternet simply present the unanswered questions as they are, compelling and sound, and just acknowledge the obvious legitimacy of asking them? Anyone who looks at the unanswered questions is left, with, well, the question -- why are they unanswered? What is the explanation if not some kind of government cover-up? (I mean, come on, more money spent pursuing Clinton's adultery than investigating 9-11? That alone -- without the airliner stunt piloting, the uninvestigated stock speculation, the involvement of the Pakistani ISI -- is enough to raise the question of coverup to anyone.)

Why does Alternet have its debunking agenda instead?

And why is it easier for media outlets like Alternet to get foundation funding, and so much harder to fund media outlets that take a more responsible approach to this controversy?

(And I haven't got the heart to look at what Alternet says about the MLK assassination...)

What IS truth anyway?
Posted by: WitchyNy on Jul 12, 2006 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know the old saying...the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Did Bush do it? Does it matter? He sure took advantage of it...to start a war he wanted all along. So now we have two thousand more dead Americans...almost as much dead as at 911. Not to mention all the non-Americans- killed for revenge and oil.

One of my favorite media events was when DNA was used to prove that Thomas Jefferson really did have children by his slave -Sally Hemmings.

Watching so many professional and 'logical' and respected
Historians try to cover their ass..after lifelong careers of stating that there was no way the Great Jefferson could do such a thing- what great fun that was.

I imagine we will someday see the same with 911. For it has been my experience that the truth does eventually rise...one way or another.

» RE: What IS truth anyway? Posted by: deo508
distracted by the aircraft
Posted by: Malterne on Jul 12, 2006 10:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no real remaining dispute that WTC building 7 was intentionally demolished with an extensive array of pre-positioned explosive demolition charges. Regardless of what effect aircraft impacts had on the other WTC structures, WTC 7 was quite evidently destroyed by an extensive array of pre-positioned demolition charges. The planned demolition of WTC 7 was in itself a criminal act that on the face of it would appear to involve persons other than the suspects who apparently hijacked the various aircraft. If WTC 7 had been the only building destroyed on September 11th 2001, then its destruction alone would have been one of the largest single acts of terrorism to have occurred in the USA. It is indeed difficult to believe that an apparent act of terrorism of this magnitude would not result in a very detailed investigation. It seems however that the highjacking and crashing of aircraft into the other WTC buildings provided adequate motive, capacity and suspects such that investigation of the "conspiracy" to demolish WTC 7 became unnecessary. It appears that there is evidence for at least two acts of terrorism occurring on September 11th. The first one was the plan to install and demolish WTC 7 with pre-positioned explosive charges and the second act of terrorism involved the highjacking and crashing of aircraft into the WTC towers and other 911 targets. Whether or not US agencies allowed or were involved in the 911 attacks for the purpose of creating a cover for limiting the constitution or as pretext for war, it is abundantly clear that US agencies have actually conspired to avoid investigating the pre-planned demolition of WTC building 7 for which much evidence was available. Not the highjacked aircraft but the demolition of WTC 7 is the smoking gun of 911. It is appalling that the US public and its law enforcement and investigation agencies have been distracted by the drama of the aircraft highjacking from considering the evidence that at least one building was demolished with an extensive array of pre-positioned demolition charges. It is difficult to believe that this dramatic distraction was unintended. Michael\

» RE: distracted by the aircraft Posted by: famouspipeliner
» thats amazing... Posted by: Conservasaurus
Neither surprised nor impressed by this article.
Posted by: axolotl_helix on Jul 12, 2006 10:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I only read AlterNet for the comments anymore, because it is pretty clearly now just another gatekeeper site.

The only interesting thing this article has, to me- beyond the usual smug patronizing, dismissive name-calling, and attacks on old strawmen or red herrings- is the claim that the 9/11conspiracy theories are based on "piles of evidence" rather than "chains of evidence." This immediately made me think of a 9/11 timeline site I had seen, which look to me like a pretty long, dense, and sturdy "chain of evidence" to me.

What do I personally believe? I believe, at the very least- the U.S. government knew exactly what was about to happen and when, and deliberately did nothing to stop it because they intended to use it as justification for an unjustifiable war, and an excuse for an otherwise politically impossible powergrab. Beyond a shadow of a doubt.
That's the minimum level of complicity based on all available evidence.

I also strongly suspect that elements within our government planned and orchestrated the whole thing- but I'm not going to argue that case- there's no need to go into melting steel and faking cellphone calls and such, because even in the minimal scenario they are just as guilty. It's still capital treason, controlled demolition or not.
Exactly how guilty they are is of interest only to future historians, because we can only hang them once.

The Reichstag Fire ...
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Jul 12, 2006 10:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In one of the great ironies of history, Marinus van der Lubbe, the guy who (acting alone) set the Reichstag fire WAS a Communist, had a Jewish grandparent and DID consider his arson a concious act of political terrorism.

QED: 'Communist Jewish Terrorists burned the Reichstag' ... Goering was therefore prudent in taking the Prussian police force under National Socialist direction, and responsible Centrist Party, deputies were correct in joining the National Socialists in passing the Enabling Act to preempt imminent Communist take by granting Chancelor Hitler authority to enact legislation outside the Consitution for a period of 4 years.

But van der Lubbe didn't CAUSE the rise of Fascism or make the passage of the Enabling Act inevitable. Nor did the assassination of Grand Duke Ferdinand HAVE to result in WWI, nor did 9/11 guarantee a neoConservative take over of the American government.

With a little calm and a little Grace, all these things could have been avoided.

The Lack of Evidence is found in the 'Official Story' p. 1
Posted by: JDroz on Jul 12, 2006 11:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After reading your post concerning the 911 conspiracy theorists I was a little (though not overwhelmingly) surprised that a writer for AlterNet took such a combative and narrow minded approach to this issue.

After reading about the events that took place on 911 I have become a believer of the alternative theory of those attacks. To me, it seems much more of a 'conspiracy theory' to believe that 19 Arabic men with minimal flight training, could pull off such a dastardly scheme. Think about it, 19 relatively unknown men could bring the mighty USA to its knees? I think not. If so, there should be a mighty backlash against our leadership who, by their own admission, had ample warning that al qaeda was planning an attack in America.

Your article does much in just debunking, but provides no cohesive information as to why we should believe the Offical Story... In my estimation, that is just poor journalism in league with the rest of the mainstream media. This article did not take into account the eyewitness accounts from New Yorkers on that day, the firemen and policemen who reported (before a gag order was placed upon them) that they heard sequential explosions that reminded them of a controlled demolition. Or the video footage which shows 'squibs' (horizontal explosions) strikingly similar to those found on demolition sites.

The article did not take into account that on September 8-9 the whole WTC complex, including security cameras and electricity, were powered down to 'upgrade' the wiring, allowing professional demolition experts the time (sight unseen) to place explosives.

The article did not take into full account that the neoconservative group Project for a New American Century had outlined their plan for a 'two theatre war' system for economic gain in the Middle East needed a 'new Pearl Harbor' to give it the much needed impetus for public support.

The article briefly mentions that fires brought down the 3 buildings in NY on that day. This would be the first through third times that fire brought down a skyscraper. Scientifically speaking, hydrocarbon based fires would not come close to reaching the 1500 degrees necessary to the 600% certified US steel on 47 support beams.

The article did not delve into the near free fall speed of each of the 3 WTC buildings during their respective collapses. This indicates that a vacuum-like condition existed within the framework of each of those buildings, a series of events on par with a controlled demolition.

The article does not explain why FEMA was already on site at the Port Authority ready for an emergency event on September 10. It also does not mention that FEMA rapidly whisked off the steel and other important investigative materials from the WTC complex within days of the attack, to countries outside of our Federal jurisdiction. This effectively made it impossible to test for thermite charges on the support beams. Why would FEMA do something like that if they were not complicit in their involvement?


In my estimation, the government perpetrated this attack on its own expendable citizens to promulgate the neoconservative Project for a New American Century. Corporate interests provided the necessary media support and propaganda. It was the perfect time to strike because Republicans controlled all aspects of American government. The Administration used fear, and fueled it with blind nationalistic pride to create a clamor towards war. War makes the rich richer. Corporate interests like Halliburton, Exxon, Texaco etc. reaped massive profits. These companies have direct links into the White House and their economic blackmail ripples throughout Washington. As we can see through detailed analysis of history, those in power who attempt to create Empires first attack their own interests to gain public support.

» Please check your facts Posted by: SteveB
The Lack of Evidence is Found in the 'Official Story' p. 2
Posted by: JDroz on Jul 12, 2006 11:13 AM   
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Nero, Pope Innocent III, Stalin, Mao Zedong etc. Look at how Hitler took control, he was appointed, not elected. He did not have a majority of support until after the 'communists' set fire to the Reichstag. Actually it was his own troops. The rest of his Empire was built upon those the two actions of stealing political power and treason against his own country. Just as Hitler used the ‘communists’ to conduct his evil campaign, Bush uses his old family friend Osama bin Laden to perpetrate his New American Project.

It is frustrating to me to see our intelligent American public still shunning an alternative theory to the events of 911. So many aspects of this sad day are blatantly counter to what the Administration has proposed to us. Right now, Americans are SHEEP. It makes me wonder how the German public felt during Hitler's rise to power... they overwhelmingly accepted it with open arms, to a disastrous conclusion. But there were some dissenters strong enough to question authority. We are stronger than that. We are more "street smart". WE NEED A NEW INVESTIGATION OF THE EVENTS OF 911. An investigation not headed by a relative of GW Bush. Republicans and Democrats both have failed us miserably. They have been complacent, just as the media has (your website included) because the truth is that our leadership murdered 3000 people on that day. Such an ugly truth exposed to the general public would create a monumental uprising of dissent so strong that our Congressmen/women, Senators, and our "president" would fear for their own lives... And they wouldn't allow that to happen because they would not be able to make their fistful of dollars!

The real question should be Why? Why haven’t we any solid information as to who conducted these attacks? Why did we not complete the task at hand in Afghanistan? Why did we invade Iraq? Why did the Administration stall and corrupt the investigation of 911 for years? Why do almost 50% of Americans believe that there was some sort of government cover-up of the events? Why, after all of the failures of governance, do Bush and his pals still have their jobs? Why are Americans so blindly ignorant to the truths that exist behind the wall of shadows? Why are we so hell bent upon nationalistic pride?

There are only two elements that can destroy this country, blind American Pride and Ignorance.

Can't admit to a mistake
Posted by: liberazi on Jul 12, 2006 11:14 AM   
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The right wing folks are not able to admit to a mistake. They will never admit they were wrong about Iraq. And without acknowledging errors, they can never correct their course. The same can be said about Reagan taking America off it's energy conservation course, which is the main reason we are in this mess now. They were wrong then, they are wrong now, and they will never admit to it.

Neither surprised nor impressed by this article.
Posted by: axolotl_helix on Jul 12, 2006 11:15 AM   
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I only read AlterNet for the comments anymore, because it is pretty clearly now just another gatekeeper site.

The only interesting thing this article has, for me- beyond the usual smug patronizing, dismissive name-calling, and attacks on old strawmen or red herrings- is the claim that the 9/11 conspiracy theories are based on "piles of evidence" rather than "chains of evidence." This immediately made me think of the 9/11 timeline site I had seen, which looks like a long, dense, and sturdy "chain of evidence" to me.

What do I personally believe? I believe, at the very least; the U.S. government knew exactly what was about to happen and when, and deliberately did nothing to stop it- because they intended to use it as justification for an unjustifiable war, and as an excuse for an otherwise politically impossible powergrab. Beyond a shadow of a doubt.
That's the minimum level of complicity based on all available evidence.

I also strongly suspect that elements within our government planned and orchestrated the whole thing- but I'm not going to argue that case- there's no need to go into melting steel and faked cellphone calls and such, because even in the minimal scenario they are just as guilty. It's still capital treason, controlled demolition or not.

Exactly howguilty they are is of interest only to future historians, because we can only hang them once.

thomas
Posted by: tgroarke on Jul 12, 2006 12:00 PM   
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One need only recall the logic and wisdom of Donald Rumsfield (sp) to clarify this discussion "The absence of evidence does not necessarily indicate evidence of absence" And we should doubt our government?

It's your word
Posted by: Gaye on Jul 12, 2006 12:04 PM   
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against many others, who say that scientific evidence does not support a "simple" collapse from the impact of the planes. And then there is the issue of no fuselage at all found at the Pentagon. So, althought I agree that promoting conspiracy for its sake alone is not appropriate, I think the evidence that is contrary to your investigation's results still holds sway with me. Add that to the on-going overt disregard for human life displayed by the current American Regime and I cannot give up my belief in complicity by Bush & Co., if not frank, direct responsibility for 9/11.

Copying from the earlier master
Posted by: leighsure on Jul 12, 2006 12:07 PM   
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Given the Bushies propensity for the Big Lie, it amazes me at times that when people talk about the PNAC precedent of Pearl Harbor for 9/11 that the Reichstag is not given equal, if not greater, prominence. A shaky, thug-stolen election with highly suspect legitimacy anyone?

Who is faith-based??
Posted by: Senqi on Jul 12, 2006 12:15 PM   
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Wow.. What a selective analysis.. I would like to know what the "overwhelming evidence to the contrary" is.. Apart from the planted and faked evidence (ie. hijacker's passport and Osama's "confession" video), I haven't really seen much credible evidence of any Arab's complicity (unless you count in the patsies)..
So please, inform me..

All in all, 9/11 has served the Bush gang's agenda extremely well..

"Perpetual war abroad and fascist control at home
More blood for oil, for oil, for oil ..."

What?
Posted by: symcokid on Jul 12, 2006 12:20 PM   
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What? Our government lie and cover up, I can't hardly believe that because we are supposed to be an example of righteousness for the rest of the world to follow! The entire poulace of mankind looks up to us, we will lead them in the right direction.

» RE: What? Posted by: rudyaub
Coming from a harvard trained engineer
Posted by: Micahyah on Jul 12, 2006 12:34 PM   
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I'm a member of the so-called "Truth Movement". I have a biomedical engineering degree from Harvard, and am in Duke Medical School and the Terry Sanford Institute of Public Policy. I'm also an Air Force brat and a son of an aeronautical engineer. Since that day, 9/11/01, I have known that the government's version of what occurred did not stand up to science. It has been a long 5 years trying to get out the truth. For years, I though the government just didn't want to tell the American public that some kind of controlled demolition mechanism was placed at the WTC towers because of the 1993 bombing. Because it appears that the intention of the 1993 bombing was to cause one tower to topple at an angle into the other tower, and then both of them would have toppled over on manhattan, most likely killing 10s of thousands of lives. I also thought from the start that the flight 93 scenario promoted by the government was going to be a 'white lie' they admitted later on, because the crash site clearly didn't correspond to the government's version of the story.

It was only until 2003 that I started to understand that the obstruction and lies was more sinister in character. After reading about PNAC and their motivations to transform American foreign policy, it all started coming together. The whole, sad, criminal, treasonous conspiracy. Then came the woeful 9/11 commission report after years of obstructions from the White House, directed by Zelikow, who had previously co-authored a book with the National Security Advisor at the time, Condoleeza Rice, and had helped write the Bush Doctrine of 2002. An obvious conflict of interest. Then came more and more holes in the government's story, including the identification of hijackers that were later found by media such as the BBC to be alive, the fact that nothing was ever done about the financial transactions that occurred prior to 9/11, the fact that there wasn't a full investigation into what occurred in the weaponized anthrax that was sent to Congress following the attacks (I think it was traced back to an American military base), Norman Minetta's testimony concerning what went on between Cheney and the aide in the bunker (the stand down order), Larry Silverstein's PBS admission concerning WTC 7, the financial linkage of a Pakistani ISI general and Atta, etc.

We could go on and on, but its up to you to give up on your delusions and actually investigate the facts. The truth is on our side, the media and propaganda is currently on the perpetrators' side, but its changing rapidly. For the sake of the United States of America, lets hope that the side with the truth wins out.

» Micahyah - well said Posted by: kogwonton
One question
Posted by: paradaly on Jul 12, 2006 12:41 PM   
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I have had this question in my mind since 9-11, and it is: Is there a history of modern American presidents reading to school children? In other words, have any other presidents - let's say since the dawn of the television photo-op - gone to an elementary school to read to children?

google him-- there are interviews with him online
Posted by: adent on Jul 12, 2006 12:46 PM   
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for instance, at
killtown.blogspot.com
a few months back

A feeble exercise in denial
Posted by: tiellis on Jul 12, 2006 1:16 PM   
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If Terry Allen's editorial is the best that those who would dismiss conspiracy theories about 9/11 can do, we have a prima facie case of the pitiful weakness of their arguments.

The author's glib ridicule of David Ray Griffin shows clearly that he has not actually read any of Griffin's books, for he says nothing about the vast amount of incriminating circumstantial evidence that Griffin--a distinguished professor of theology with a 30-year career and numerous peer-reviewed publications--reviews, cites sources for, and carefully evaluates, never taking his conclusions any farther than the evidence warrants.

More importantly, the author shows no awareness at all of the recent painstaking research by Dr. Steven Jones, a senior physicist at Brigham Young University (hardly a nest of left-wing ferment!), establishing beyond any reasonable doubt, with detailed supporting evidence, that thermate, a powerful explosive routinely used in planned demolitions, had been used to bring down the Twin Towers, and that the impact of the planes could not possibly have caused these buildings to collapse into their own footprint at free-fall rate.

In short, Allen, like so many others, is in chronic, pathological denial about 9/11, unable to bring himself to imagine what the evidence, at first circumstantial but now direct, shows to anyone willing to look: that 9/11 was an inside job through and through--a black op whose purpose was to galvanize the American public into supporting endless aggressive war abroad and fascism at home--it was the kingpin in the master plan of the Project for a New American Century.

Another government apologist with a flimsy defense!
Posted by: writer33 on Jul 12, 2006 1:17 PM   
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"In the end, this kind of undermining of individual "facts," although relatively easy, is irrelevant for those who base their beliefs on piles rather than chains of evidence."

That is what you said, Mr. Allen. And just where are your "chains" of evidence? Certainly not anywhere to be seen in your brief excuse for a rebuttal!

Others commenting here have quite nicely answered you. Yes, there was some kind an "inside job." I am convinced of that. The only thing we don't seem yet to know is just who the "insiders" are. The evidence is clear the buildings, including Building 7, were detonated. By whom is quite another matter. But, as one here notes, Mr. Allen, you have no explanation for the president's brother, Marvin Bush, being involved in the WTC security and the mysterious lockdown. There is a thread there, among many others. Call it what you want, Mr. Allen, a "chain" of evidence if not a "pile" of it. Regardless, that pile is pretty damned large and overwhelming, and I would suggest you take a deep look through it...and you might find those "chains" you say need to be identified.

Gender Challenged
Posted by: RJW on Jul 12, 2006 1:28 PM   
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My apologies to Ms. Allen. If I hadn't been in such a hurry to set her straight, I wouldn't have called her Mr. or a he. You guys know how it is, Sandy, Terry, Alice, Bobby, Francis, etc. I guess I'm jaded cause my name is Dick. No mistaking that one.

» RE: Gender Challenged Posted by: sallyjrw
» RE: Gender Challenged Posted by: kaw valley kid
Who is the silence protecting?
Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 12, 2006 1:33 PM   
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I didn't see any "overwhelming evidence to the contrary" presented by this author. There are erudite people on both sides of the debate. I am on the fence, but can understand why half the country believes it. We live in a country where many are keeping secrets. Until those secrets are exposed, we are never going to be a healthy, advance, rational people. So who is the silence really protecting???

Faith Movement???
Posted by: bionicantboy on Jul 12, 2006 1:35 PM   
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I'd like to see AlterNet actually tackle the issue of evidence before dismissing those who see the 9/11 Report as a whitewash.

Maybe you can come up with a good reason why they gloss over the war games on 9/11, or maybe why Mahmoud Ahmad, head of Pakistan's ISI is a free man after sending Mohamed Atta $100,000 one month prior to 9/11.

The same Atta that visited a certain SunCruz gambling boat just 5 days before 9/11.

Or how about the Aug 6th PDB, which was reported in 2002 to be 11 1/2 pages long, but when released to the public, was a whopping 2.

You're right. 9/11 skepticism is a faith based movement, with no hint at reality. :barf:

Then again, I've largely written off AlterNet as a typical leftie site, that loves to knock the "concept" of rightwing, without actually looking at the actions of people in both parties, and what constitutes a criminal act.

I guess you all got together and went bowling with the folks at Daily Kos, and decided that ignoring the cover up of the largest mass murder on U.S. soil would best serve the Democratic Party.

Glad to see that you support your president who said "Let's not entertain outrageous conspiracy theories."

So much for justice.

9/11 Conspiracy NUTS (they are) are bringing us down!
Posted by: prod on Jul 12, 2006 1:38 PM   
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Look at all the nutty posts here by people who believe there was some 9/11 conspiracy.

We need to purge these crazies from our base.

They are bringing us down.

Think about it. How are we suppose to get new members to our party if we are the party of conspiracy theories? These people are as bad as the far-right religious nuts.

Just look at all the pro-conspiracy posts. WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!!

» RE: Coincidence Theorists Hate America Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: get a bigger nutcracker Posted by: deo508
THE BOTTOM LINE...
Posted by: babs on Jul 12, 2006 1:48 PM   
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.. to all this is that Osama Bin Laden is still at large and the Bush government has stopped looking for him.

Gee, I wonder why? (blink, blink)

Terry Allen loves a conspiracy theory.
Posted by: dainin on Jul 12, 2006 1:56 PM   
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In fact, she loves the Bush Administration’s conspiracy theory so much, she’ll do anything to save it. There is just something comforting about it. Besides if it were wrong, people like Terry who have spent so much time directing us away from the truth will have a lot of explaining to do.

Dark-skinned demons may or may not be performing random, viscously unjust acts of selflessness in order to steal your freedoms. But for Terry, those who we know have lied to us in their efforts to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Americans, could never possibly lie to us in order to put that plan in motion.

Terry uses the Bush Administration’s NIST report as a means of comfort. She vaguely refers to it despite clearly never having read it, or the FMEA BPAT report, or the Silverstein/ Weidlinger report, or the other reports made buy the exact same engineers working all the time to support an unsustainable story. She never mentions that all these reports contradict each other, or that the NIST report has been proven completely false. Terry herself makes remarks that are in direct contradiction to these reports, hoping beyond hope as NIST did that a long string of verbiage can make the truth go away.

The fact that the truth is coming out scares Terry, and it probably should.

Ok, I'll just bring up one "physical evidence" issue...
Posted by: axolotl_helix on Jul 12, 2006 3:48 PM   
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Even though I had said I didn't want to argue that stuff- because it is a question I haven't heard enough other people asking yet.

There has been much debate on whether the collapses could have happened the way the official story says they did.

I have a slightly different take on this. Assume it's possible; let's just say heat could have collapsed the towers. Assuming buildings 1, 2, and 7 all fell down because of fires, in the manner described by the 9-11 Commission... what should it have looked like? Would it really look like what we all saw on live TV that day?

"The focus of the Investigation was on the sequence of events from the instant of aircraft impact to the initiation of collapse for each tower. For brevity in this report, this sequence is referred to as the "probable collapse sequence," although it does not actually include the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached..."

I could ask "why not?" but such a question is obviously rhetorical. I don't think they would have been able to massage their variables enough to make the simulated tower fall in the same way as the real ones did.

Terry Allen: Drunken Santa and his reindeer caused 9/11
Posted by: cthelyt on Jul 12, 2006 3:51 PM   
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If the government says it, then it must be true. So Santa was a little early and a bit off course, and anyone who thinks otherwise must be a crackpot officially credentialed by some obscure online university. Terry doesn't need to substantiate her assertions; she needs only to keep painting with her broad brush. Excuse me while I straighten my tinfoil hat, but I think she uses so much paint because she's in cahoots with Home Depot and gets as much as she wants.

At this point, after more than 300 postings--is that a record?--I wonder whether anyone still has the ability to read my posting, but if you do, I don't want merely to amuse you. I want you to get as angry and ashamed of my country as I am, for insisting that the farce of the past five years continue, for not assuaging the grief of the families and friends of those who died on that terrible day in full view of my kitchen and bedroom windows but continuing to exploit it at every turn to further an agenda lacking justice, prudence, humanity, and sense. The smoke from the WTC kept rising for months but eventually subsided; alas, the lies from the government continue unabated--or more precisely, unchallenged by the very people, so-called professional journalists, whom our founders were counting on to be universal skeptics and adversaries to government officials and the prerogatives of power.

Terry Allen of In These Times reassures us that we are in no danger of being enlightened by her journalistic contributions. Perhaps she, like her soul sister Judith Miller, will win herself a Pulitzer Prize or two after years of faithful service towing the party line and will reap the rewards due her on the celebrity lecture circuit. Meanwhile, the rest of us mortals will remain convinced that someone at the highest levels in our government not only let us down on that day but intended to do just that and made sure to the best of their ability that a certain sequence of catastrophic events would occur, events catastrophic to those unfortunates in the target structures but absolutely delightful to those who meant to steer the US into the shoals so that they and their patrons could gain even more money and power than they already had. Once upon a time, someone told a journalist to follow the money, and he actually did. Allen boldly shows us how quaint that tip is today. Yes, Terry, if you and the government say it, it must be true. Everyone else is a nut case and a crackpot, and if they aren't, why aren't they rich or at least hungry careerist wannabes like you?

In case anybody cares, the author is female
Posted by: tanstaafl28 on Jul 12, 2006 4:00 PM   
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FYI...

Ms Allen's distortion
Posted by: aurora2484 on Jul 12, 2006 4:37 PM   
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Let me see now..

Those who merely QUESTION the official story are a "FAITH Movement"

Those who BELIEVE the - uh - government's story, are the skeptics..?

something not quite right about that picture...

» Good point Posted by: dainin
Terry Allen's Shortcomings
Posted by: hawkwtchr on Jul 12, 2006 4:42 PM   
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Ms. Allen may be a good editor, but she's a poor, selective reader. Whether the Administration or some officials were complicit in 9/11 or just let it happen is for others to investigate and decide. It should and must be investigated. However, Ms. Allen blithely ignores the solid evidence out there for the controlled demolition of the buildings. All you have to do is watch a slow motion video of the buildings coming down and you can see the flashes of explosions several floors beneath the floors crumbling as they come down. Also, large numbers of firefighters and police (you remember the Heroes of 9/11 who were refused the right to testify before the 9/11 Commission, don't you?) have stated publicly that bombs were going off around and BELOW them when the Towers were collapsing. The only structural engineers who supported the official version were the ones who worked for either the government or some of the companies involved in ownership of the buildings. All the others laugh at the thought that these structures collapsed due to intense heat or expansion, in the middle of a relatively cool fire. Again, remember, the construction manuals for the Towers clearly state that the buildings were designed to withstand direct impacts from Boeing 707's (the largest aircraft extant at the time of construction). Jet fuel burns cool, not hot, and burns up quickly. Those buildings were burning for less than an hour in one case, less than an hour and a half in another. Other similar skyscrapers have burned for 36 hours and not collapsed like the Towers. I suggest to everyone to watch "Loose Change 9/11, Second Edition". It's all in there. Then judge for yourselves.

carla janson
Posted by: hefalumpe on Jul 12, 2006 4:46 PM   
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ok... but then WHY DID building # 7 collapse... it was not hit by a plane and was not a raging inferno (there were 2 small fires.).. sorry, but you do not have to be a structural engineer to know that a 47 story building doesn't just fall down flat because it was hit by a bit of debris....whatever happened, something is being covered up.
also, more recently the joint chiefs of staff approved a program (in the 60's) to have anticastro cubans living in this country commit terrorist acts against american citizens, and blame it on castro, as an excuse to invade cuba. so why should we trust this government ??????

» Plenty of counter evidence Posted by: YogiBear
While sheep gently sleep.
Posted by: djcranky on Jul 12, 2006 4:57 PM   
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Firstly the word 'conspiracy' has now become synonomous with whacko; I much prefer 'Theory of coincidence'. I think it was Koestler who wrote that when the odds of certain events occuring (eg:First time into footprint building implosions by fire x three) are mathematically improbale then there is something else at work other than coincedence.

Secondly, it is interesting to note that those who disavow the 'wingnutters' are essentially towing the same line as the administration and GB who shortly after the fall declared that we should be vigilant for those who would propose outrageous conspiracy theories. It seems that anything other than the official version must now be pegged as a conspiracy theory. This in itself should be a siren call for anyone with an ounce of imagination. And this is the the third aspect that should be taken into account: To beleive in something other than what you are told to beleive takes courage and imagination.

Finally the whole arguement is arguably an abstraction but the incident and the climate of fear, brutality and diminished rights that it now engenders might also be seen as an Act of God designed to awaken the sleeping masses to the corrupt nature of their values and beliefs. Wake up little sheepies, wake up!

This article's stretch of the truth makes conspiracy theorists look good.
Posted by: DavidByron on Jul 12, 2006 5:13 PM   
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If this was supposed to be some sort of debunking then the author needs to go back to school. Much of the content of the article seeks to "prove" that there cannot have been a conspiracy over 9-11 because --- hey ---- would Bush ever lie to you? Course not.

It's comforting to think of someone as "in charge" says the article. But of course there's no big group in charge of things and operating secretly --- like say a government. Oh wait. We do have a government.

Was this article intended as a parody?

The title says half of America thinks Bush is covering up. They are right. Bush is covering up. Bush covers up everything. Bush would be covering up something like 9-11 regardless of what happened. This is a guy who is busy re-classifying previously declassified public domain documents and you think he isn't covering up some aspect of 9-11? The most secretive administration ever? The only serious question is what is Bush covering up.

But to the lunatic fringe anti-conspiracist --- the sort of losers who pretend the elections were not stolen still I assume --- there's nothing to see here. Move along. Trust Bush. Ignore any inconsistencies. Forget about accountability. Don't bother to investigate. Because we absolutely positively know what happened don't we?

So instead of takling the serious broad issue this article tries to find a couple of lose accusations and make fun of them. Wow that's "scientific".

In the end this article tries to present conspiracy theorists as the ones who are clingin to an absolute belief whereas in fact they are just pointing out a series of could bes and maybes and demanding a proper investigation. It's this author who is the one genuinely claiming to have perfect knowledge of what happened on 9-11.

What wonderful news about 9/11 (so called) conspiracy theories
Posted by: johnp on Jul 12, 2006 5:21 PM   
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This is good news. Now that we're assured by Terry Allen, that 9/11 conspiracy theories are unfounded., we can proceed to the next step and have a thorough investigation of this situation. The Bush administration, which has the most to lose, if it can be shown to be complicit, directly or indirectly, in this tragedy, will be exonerated. I'll bet the Bush administration can't wait to conduct a thorough investigation, now that Allen has written her piece.

We certainly had a thorough investigation in the John Kennedy assassination, didn't we? There is the same lack of public confidence in the "official" report here, and I'm sure the government will react responsibly, examine the 9/11 conspiracy theories with a fine tooth comb, so we can all go about our lives, confident that the Bush administration is the humane and decent thing we all know it to be.
jp

» Thanks John P. for such great logic! Posted by: kellysgarden
Republicans would embrace the conspiracy theorists
Posted by: DavidByron on Jul 12, 2006 5:29 PM   
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Why so down on these guys even if -- hypothetically -- we accept that there's nothing to the theories? What would republicans do? We know what they'd do because we saw it with Clinton. They made mountains out of molehills and undermined confidence in the president by airing the most fabricated outrageous accusations.

That Democrats would benefit from the same strategy goes without saying so why does this article and many people commenting above seem to want to do the exact opposite?

If half of America think Bush is hiding something then good government practise demands an investigation --- simply to shore up confidence in government transparency. Even if none of us thought there was anything to it we ought to back an investigation so what is the real issue here?

What the heck is going on that democrats are so spineless and so bizarely acting in opposition to their clear interests and the interests of the public good???

This is how you debunk a conspiracy theory
Posted by: DavidByron on Jul 12, 2006 5:59 PM   
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I could do a better debunking.

The people who try to "debunk" these theories as a means to pretend there's nothing to investigate are as irrationally self-assured as the stereotypical conspiracy theorist who pretends to know what really happened - if such a stereotype really exists.

Take the building WTC7 for example.

The irrational anti-spiracist claims that nothing at all unusual happened here. That's ridiculous. The conspiracist realises something very odd happened here -- so far so good but then jumps from "odd thing happened" to "so Bush did it".

But if you think about it the odd WTC7 collapse actually might undermine the (stereotypical) conspiracy case.

If you were plotting to rig a terrorist attack using planes then the last thing you'd want is a confusing third building collapsing without a plane hitting it. Talk about suspicious. Wouldn't that blow the game? And it doesn't add anything to the trauma of that day. Why would you risk it? It just doesn't "fit". It's odd, so we need an investigation, but by itself it points nowhere.

Same thing goes for the bizarre behaviour of Bush when he was told about the attacks. The anti-spiracist pretends there was nothing odd about Bush's behaviour. The (stereotype) conspiracist sees the odd behaviour and concludes "Bush knew".

But if you think about it ... if Bush knew then wouldn't he have prepared a perfect photo-op? Wouldn't he have a great speech lined up and something to make him look heroic and in charge? Just about the farthest thing possible from what actually happened.

Even if he figured the photo-op shouldn't be too good (to avoid suspicion) he wouldn't have deliberately made himself look so weak. but this is Bush. He's the king of the photo-op. He beleives you make reality. If he had been prepared he'd have had a scripted sound bite ready and memorised.

Now this observation doesn't "debunk" the idea that 9-11 was covered up. It just makes some theories more likely than others. Perhaps Bush wasn't expecting the attack to be so large. Something genuinely surprised him. He wasn't prepared. But it's also true that he didn't act like a guy who had just been told out of the blue that his country was under attack.

Pearl Harbor had six or seven official investigations and they are still turning up new facts about the event that the government has hidden for 60 years. Cover up? That's business as usual.

» There is a reason... Posted by: reprehensor
Democratic Party selling pictures of flag draped coffins
Posted by: Conservasaurus on Jul 12, 2006 6:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to raise money.. that HAS to be an ALL TIME LOW! Lets hope the American people will be totally outraged!

God Bless America and Support our Troops!

Yes, conspiracies do not exist BECAUSE THEY DO NOT NEED TO
Posted by: chief of okeefe on Jul 12, 2006 6:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Actually, I think conspiracies do not require alot of people keeping quiet because of a flaw in human nature: People believe what they WANT to believe.

After Pearl Harbor, they wanted to believe the narrative that lil ole innocent USA was just minding its own business when WHAM, out of the blue, comes an unprovoked surprise attack. I believed the party line from my childhood in '60s until well into adulthood. Only then, I found out that there are many facts IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN which shattered the official line. In fact the Roosevelt admin deliberately HAD been provoking Japan. In fact, in 1940, Roosevelt had deliberately moved the fleet from an invulnerable base at San Diego to a quite vulnerable base at Pearl, knowing that it was now "in range" of Japanese carriers. In fact, US Army fliers went to China in fall of '41 disguised as the "Flying Tigers volunteers" to shoot and kill Japanese soldiers and airmen. In fact, they knew weeks ahead that Japan was getting desperate and might pre-emptively attack. In fact, Churchill had found out that Pearl itself was a target a few days ahead (gee why would he keep quiet, hmmm?). In fact, Roosevelt and his folks also knew SEVERAL HOURS ahead, but instead of using radio-relay, they conveniently use low-priority telegrams that they KNOW will take a full day to reach Pearl. In fact, despite everyone and their mother knowing that an attack was imminent (at the highest levels) no one wanted the radar operator on Oahu to stay on duty and look for incoming attacking planes. Told him to go home! After all that, what a lucky stroke the US carriers, the only thing the US would need to start the war, were ALL out at sea. What are the odds that ALL three of these high-maintenance vessels would be at sea in peacetime?

Conspiracies? They are not necessary! People believe what they want, and they want to believe the government.

And the same thing has also happened with the Kennedy assassination question. The most important criminal case in 100 years and NO ONE could later find the most important forensic evidence-- Kennedy's brain. And Johnson rushes to destroy (crush and burn) the president's limo. And several witnesses who gave initial stories that shattered the official line all die in a few weeks, by accident, by mysterious "murders", by mysterious drug ODs. The odds against 5 people in that age range all dying so close together can be predicted by life insurance tables--10,000 to one. And they say only kooks would refuse to buy into that cooincidence?

Conspiracies? Not necessary. Put up a little fog, suggest the dissenters are nutjobs (or worse), and almost anything is possible.

Re-read the "Emperer's New Clothes" fable. That was no "conspiracy". Just human nature at work.

» Gore Vidal on Pearl Harbor, etc... Posted by: reprehensor
Excellent Link that explains physics of the tower falls and why
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Jul 12, 2006 6:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
they couldn't possibly have fallen in only 9 seconds:
http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

I am no conspiracy nut
Posted by: cold2touch on Jul 12, 2006 6:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but so many things don't make any sense that to say it all happened as Rove says is tantamount to a deliberate snowjob.
For example, I have a problem with this: the flight that crashed in a farmer's field in Pennsylvania ... this plane careened completely out of control for about an hour in the world's most densely travelled and patrolled airspace, between Washington and New York. So, tell me that with all of these interceptors on hand, nobody thought to scramble them after that flight and left it to a bunch of heroic all-American passangers to ram it into the ground. And the terrorist crew were who? The flight manifest does not contain a single Muslim sounding name - not one. Just a bunch of steely eyed John Waynes.
Meanwhile when Payne Stewart's chartered jet went off course over the Rockies, the interceptors were on the scene in what, less than 10 minutes?
Yeah, no conspiracy here folks, move on, it was Saddam who did it and if you don't believe it, you are no patriot and you don't support the troops, and why do you hate our liberties?

» RE: I am no conspiracy nut Posted by: willymack
» RE: I am no conspiracy nut Posted by: cold2touch
Next article by Terry Allen
Posted by: cold2touch on Jul 12, 2006 6:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, nearly half of all Americans believe the Bush administration is covering up its WMD and Niger yellowcake fabrications prior to the assault on Iraq.

Stupid Americans ...

» RE: Next article by Terry Allen Posted by: aurora2484
Carts
Posted by: Carts on Jul 12, 2006 7:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is a joke.

What about the Pentagon? No plane wreckage!

How do you explain that Terry?

Maybe aliens took it away??

The author is either in on this on behalf of Bushit,

Or the author is just stupid.

what overwhelming evidence?
Posted by: thunderstar on Jul 12, 2006 7:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
who has this author, terry allen, been reading that he feels the shrubbery are absolved of a cover-up, if not actual responsibility for 9.11?
i have read nothing that shows me that the shrubbery have clean hands in this. there are so many "how comes," etc about 9.11 that can only be answered if you inject the shrubbery into the plan.
while i'd like to believe the 9.11 commission report, it takes little for me to remember that it was now senator arlen specter of pennsylvania who cooked up the single bullet theory about the john kennedy's assasination and the warren commission bought it.
i agree with john dean's theory that this authoritarian administration would do ANYTHING, including creating fearful situations for americans to react to, in order to create their own american fascist nation.
roz

Ms Allen: 9/11 researchers are prolonging the War??
Posted by: aurora2484 on Jul 12, 2006 7:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Her final paragraph appears to be accusing us of somehow prolonging the war.

And that, as it becomes more apparent that without 9/11, there would not have been this particular war.

Duane Behrens
Posted by: Duane Behrens on Jul 12, 2006 7:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here are the few facts we know regarding the collapse of WTC 1, 2 and 3 on September 11, 2001:

1. All three buildings collapsed in less than 12 seconds.
2. All three buildings fell into their own footprint.
3. Following their collapse, little remained except dust and rubble.
4. The collapse of each building began at its center point (witness the fall of the central spire on WTC2, and the obvious inward implosion of WTC7).
5. The collapse of each building was perfectly vertical, perfectly concentric.
6. Documented eyewitness accounts speak of the sound and even the odor of explosives.
7. Photographic evidence shows massive damage in Floor 1 lobbies in the seconds just PRIOR to the collapse of WTCs 1 and 2.
8. All of the above, and indeed, the actual collapse of the buildings themselves, are remarkably similar to the collapse of dozens of similar steel-and-concrete buildings across America.
9. In every similar case, each building that fell as described above did so as the result of the placement and detonation of explosives, previously placed at key structural points.

The above are neither conjecture nor fantasy. They are undeniable facts.

And here is what is so troubling about the above facts. The possibility of controlled demolition through the use of explosive was not even mentioned in the original FEMA report. Nor was it addressed in the subsequent 9/11 Commission
Report. Most telling, it was not even offered as a possible scenario in the final NIST report, which first correctly abandoned the original FEMA theory of "pancaking" , but then created an even MORE implausible series of undocumented,
unphotographed, unvideoed, unwitnessed, unverified and unsupportable "if-then" scenarios, NONE of which are supported by any evidence whatsoever!

Then, when we all cried "Foul!", a few dozen goons were dispatched to corporate media venues in an even MORE transparent attempt to obsure the facts above with lies, insults, and alternative crackpot theories. . . . even as our
Constitutional rights were taken from us on the grounds that this is a "post-9/11 world" in which the Constitution has no place.

Your article encourages and supports this crime.

Duane Behrens
Ely, Mn

Look for the MO
Posted by: Julian on Jul 12, 2006 8:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So 42 percent of the American people believe the U.S. government and the 9/11 Commission are covering up what really happened on September 11, 2001.

Now why would they think the government and Earl Warren Commission - sorry, 9/11 Commission - would want to cover up what really happened?

To hide incompetence?

Hardly. They have wrung their hands in public over their "intelligence failures" ever since the event. The 9/11 Commission addressed intelligence failures and nothing much else.

About the only other thing those millions of Americans might believe the government would wish to hide is complicity or - in the minds of some -- sole authorship.

Increasingly, Americans seem to be becoming fed up with being taken for suckers by the most blatant, shameless, persistent, crude, incompetent and transparent -- and deadly -- bunch of liars ever to misrule their country.

One does not have to construct (without enough definitive evidence available for the job) an alternative to their story in order to nail the improbabilities and cover-ups.

Black ops by governments against their own citizens do happen. Sometims a whistle is blown. For the anatomy of a very nasty and high profile black op which has been rumbled, see http://www.infowars.net/Pages/Aug05/020805Aswat.html. Like the debuinkers of the US administration's conspiracy theory aboujt 9/11, British debunkers did some research that showed that what Bliar said had happened when the London bombs wsent off had a fatal hole in it. And now, at the above URL, you can see the whistle being blown from inside.

Don't deride the debunkers by labelling them conspiracy theorists and wingnuts. Focus on the story they are debunking.

PENTAGON!
Posted by: FauxPorteno on Jul 12, 2006 9:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where are the wings? Where are the holes in the facade where the engines would have penetrated? How did a soft nose plane punch through layer upon layer of reinforced concrete? Where is the security camera footage from other cameras in position to witness/film the impact? How did pilots with only a few weeks of FLIGHT SIMULATOR training become Chuck "Fucking A Straight" Yeager that fateful day? Their previous trainers (single engine Cesna training to be exact) labeled them as washouts and incompetent when interviewed.

Jesus Christ I hope that you NeoCon assholes realize who is beginning to look like the biggest idiots out of this whole thing . . . America knows what happened - wake up!

JUST REMEMBER SOMETHING - THESE GUYS NEVER, EVER FLEW A JUMBO JET UNTIL THAT DAY BUT PULLED A BANKING DIVE THAT MOST EXPERIENCED FIGHTER PILOTS COULD ONLY DREAM OF PULLING OFF!!

» RE: PENTAGON! Posted by: 50566
I knew, because sometimes I believe the Feds.
Posted by: SourDove on Jul 12, 2006 10:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"We all predicted this. We had strategic warning. This is not
something the analysts missed." -J. Paul Bremer


When leaders tell you something shameful, it's a good time to give
them the benefit of the doubt. In court such a remark is called an
admission against interest.

It was late in 1997 when I first read in the news about 9/11. It
wasn't called that then, but "top US intelligence and law enforcement
officials" were quoted by AP describing the method and the targets of
the planned sneak attack. Then the NYT covered the plot again in
January 1998, with variants.

By then the plot had lost the element of surprise. Yet the detectives
being quoted said they were very concerned, that the suspects were
already training at US flight schools, and that they believed that some
of those schools included "secure US military bases." What a stupid
place for a terrorist to hide! There's no privacy left after a
background check.

I remembered asking my mom in 1970 why the newspaper had invented a
new word, "skyjacking." She said that one could hijack a truck, but
that hijacking airplanes had become so common that it had earned its
own word.

How could the officials believe there would be no effective air
defense? Why would the plotters themselves feel such irrational
confidence? If they were training at "secure US military bases," as
the officials suggested, then maybe they knew something most didn't.

And yet the plot had lost the element of surprise, which would surely
be required. If top officials had the information, it had already
reached the people in a position to prevent the attacks. And if they
hadn't known before, they certainly did now.

It was July 2, 1999 when I realized that if voters went for Shrub,
they'd be voting less for his own record in Texas than for his dad's
record in DC. Iran-Contra was a huge narco-terrorist conspiracy. I'd
been told in 1980 that if Poppy reached the White House, he would use
his CIA connections to get things done fast, behind the scenes. He
would use it to become president, and then, when three Supreme Court
justices grew too old to stay on the job, he would appoint three
replacements. "And that's the beauty of this plan," she said, "because
those appointments are for life, and that leaves his mark for the next
generation, when one of his three eldest sons might be eligible." She'd
explained that if she were starving, and Lenin promised her food, she'd
fight for him too. She explained that Congress was an obstacle to the
unpopular measures needed to maintain our standard of living. Such a
leader would not blanch at theft.

Putting the date too close to the anniversary of a stolen election
would be too obvious, so November 2001 was too late. Yet that year
offered an irrestistible marketing opportunity, one that befit the
apocalyptic scene outlined. Was there a date with some sort of
emotional resonance for most US voters, regardless of age, class, race
or income? Why, yes, yes there was.

How I wish the author of this piece could have debated me on July 2,
1999, when I became convinced I'd hit on a strategy so irrestistible
that it was bound to happen.


"February 1995: The ultimate targets will be the CIA, the Pentagon,
the World Trade Center, the Sears Tower in Chicago, the Transamerica
Tower in San Franciso, and a U.S. nuclear facility."

It's a Joke
Posted by: Kirc Zame on Jul 12, 2006 10:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it surprising that the Alternet would run such a thin rebuke of the 911 doubters.

If the piece is supposed to be enlightening then it ought to be published in book form or at the very least as a pamphlet. But 500 words on “Why I think 911 Conspiracy Theories are Bunk” based soley on a handful of doubts, is a disservice to the author and the readers. I can’t help but believe that the article was intended as an informal poll. A device Alternet producers could use to gauge the attention level of their current audience.

Which then leads me to doubt everything about the Alternet. Is it for real, or is this just another intelligence gathering tool? Another monitor in the ever widening strangle hold of the government’s need to maintain control of information and its subjects?

The Alternet is not a friend. All of you should know damn well that Allen’s piece is a shill. A little something to stir up some shit to see who doubts and why. It's all monitored and it's all being collected.

» RE: It's a Joke Posted by: IanA
» RE: It's a Joke Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: It's a Joke Posted by: kellysgarden
Disagreeing with the OFFICIAL ACCOUNT is NOW
Posted by: owlbear1 on Jul 12, 2006 10:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"conspiracy mongering".

See that's the trick isn't it?

Asking questions denotes a LACK OF FAITH and MUST mean the questioner is a LOON!

The EXPLANATIONS don't fit the FACTS!

Generally speaking innocent people want all the FACTS to come out. Bushies have moved heaven and Earth trying to keep them SECRET. Guilty parties exhibit that behavior.

I have no idea why the author chose hardcore MIHOP believers as representatives
Posted by: eridani on Jul 12, 2006 11:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
--of everybody who has any doubts about the official version of 9/11. MIHOP = Made It Happen On Purpose. I rule that out on the grounds of excessive complexity. For those of us who believe in the KISS principle, LIHOP is an option (Let It Happen On Purpose).

Given that the Bush family Saudi contacts knew the day of the attack in advance, it would not have been necessary to know the exact operational details in order to foul up the defenses.

This information was made available by Craig Unger and Gerald Posner. Unger wrote [i]House of Bush, House of Saud,[/i] a pretty serious research book. Posner is not exactly a conspiracy theorist, seeing as how he made his bones as a writer debunking Kennedy assassination theories.

Mirror site for Salon article

Immediately after 9/11, dozens of Saudi royals and members of the bin Laden family fled the U.S. in a secret airlift authorized by the Bush White House. One passenger was an alleged al-Qaida go-between, who may have known about the terror attacks in advance.

(snip)

According to Posner, the interrogators responded by telling Zubaydah that 9/11 changed everything. The House of Saud certainly would not stand behind him after that. It was then that Zubaydah dropped his real bombshell. "Zubaydah said that 9/11 changed nothing because Ahmed ... knew beforehand that an attack was scheduled for American soil that day," Posner writes. "They just didn't know what it would be, nor did they want to know more than that. The information had been passed to them, said Zubaydah, because bin Laden knew they could not stop it without knowing the specifics, but later they would be hard-pressed to turn on him if he could disclose their foreknowledge."

As for Prince Ahmed, on July 22, 2002, he died mysteriously of a heart attack at the age of 43, so he was never interviewed about his connections to al-Qaida and his alleged foreknowledge of the events of 9/11. Not that the FBI didn't have its chance at him. On Sept. 16, 2001, after the Bush administration had approved the Saudi evacuation, Prince Ahmed had boarded that 727 in Lexington, Ky. He had been identified by FBI officials, but not seriously interrogated.


The objection that too many people would have had to know about this does not hold up. How many people does it take to order a lot of confusing drills for the day of the attack if you know it in advance? Not many--even just one might do. And that person would not even have had to know the specifics of the attack plans. You don't even need any buildings to collapse--the attack alone would have been enough for the neocons to attain their policy goals.

Bowman interview


The former head of the Star Wars missile defense program under Presidents Ford and Carter has gone public to say that the official version of 9/11 is a conspiracy theory and his main suspect for the architect of the attack is Vice President Dick Cheney.

Bowman outlined how the drills on the morning of 9/11 that simulated planes crashing into buildings on the east coast were used as a cover to dupe unwitting air defense personnel into not responding quickly enough to stop the attack.

"The exercises that went on that morning simulating the exact kind of thing that was happening so confused the people in the FAA and NORAD....that they didn't they didn't know what was real and what was part of the exercise," said Bowman.


Very simple, no? Forget about explosives and all that BS about no plane hitting the Pentagon.

NO, it is a crime far more heinous than conspiracy.
Posted by: Riverside on Jul 13, 2006 1:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have not read all 400+ comments here so forgive me if I repeat someone elses points. I agree, I do not believe there was a conspiracy, but I do believe and I continue to call for a full explanation why the Bush Administration ignored or even hushed up early warnings that some kind of terrorist attack was imminent.

I think the very smug, hubris infested Bush boys could not believe that there would be a terrorist attack of the magnitude equal to the 9/11 assaults. I also believe that their drive to find an excuse for invading Iraq led them to ignore obvious warnings of an attack. Their concentration on establishing the WMD suspicion was their key effort and the linking of Saddam to Al Qaeda came after 9/11. That tragedy was then hyped as a key motivator for going to war with Iraq, and it continues to be hyped.

So, the smugness, the indifference, and their concerntration on getting inside the Middle East through war with Iraq was their goal and their crime. Their obsession put Ameirca at risk and that same obsession blinded them to the many, many warnings coming in from their own intelligence sources. 9/11 was not pre-conceived as a conspiracy, but it could have been averted or its impact on human lives reduced if the Bush boys had wanted to pay attention.

Each of the key executives of the Bush Administration failed to "preserve and protect" we-the-people and this nation because they were too busy hatching a plot to overthrow Iraq. They failed in their oath of office and they have failed each and every one of us, and continue to do so. This is the crime and, yes it is no conspiracy, but it is certainly malfeasance and possibly even qualfies as "high crimes and misdemeanors." This latter transgression qualifies the lot of them for impeachment proceedings.

Finally, guess who is paying the price? We are, in the loss of civil liberties, in the loss of loved ones serving in Iraq, and in the overall disparity between we-the-people to the point that we are coming apart and that means America is coming apart. To me all of this is a far more damning indictment than any shadow chasing claims of conspiracy. We have been had, and are too busy quarreling with each other to either realize it or if we realize it, to do anything about it.

The Congressional Record on 9/11
Posted by: reprehensor on Jul 13, 2006 3:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After a lengthy wait, excerpts from Rep. Cynthia McKinney's July 22nd, 2005 Briefing are now avaible to view as part of the Congressional Record for 2005. At this time, the full official transcripts as compiled by McKinney's staff are still not available online.

You can view the excerpts online by going to the Library of Congress' THOMAS service, http://thomas.loc.gov -- selecting "Congressional Record" and typing in "9/11" into the "Search" field, selecting McKinney's name from the "Member of Congress" drop down list, de-selecting the "Senate" option, and hitting "Search".

Here is what is available from the Congressional Record;

Opening Remarks:

Rep. Cynthia McKinney

9/11 Families Report

Lorie Van Auken, 9 /11 Family Steering Committee “Unanswered Questions and The Call for Accountability”

Behind the 9 /11 Commission: Flaws in the Process

John Judge, staff and 9 /11 Citizens Watch: “Staff Report—A Citizens’ Critique”

Mel Goodman, former CIA, Center for International Policy: “Conflicts of Interest—A Commission Investigates Itself”

Omissions and Errors in the Commission’s Final Report

TLV
Posted by: tlv on Jul 13, 2006 7:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On September 13, 2001, Robert Novak wrote this for TownHall.com: "Security experts and airline officials agree privately that the simultaneous hijacking of four jetliners was an "inside job" probably indicating complicity beyond malfeasance. This makes all the more ominous Tuesday's national catastrophe and its dismal consequences."

What about legal demolition of the WTC?
Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Jul 13, 2006 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Terry Allen is a credulous bleating fool and I've lost a lot of faith in what Alternet chooses to publish. I've disagreed with Alternet posters' opinions before, but basically believed in their truthfulness, or at least the ability defend their arguments factually. No more.

So she's full of crap. That's been pretty much settled here in no uncertain terms.

One argument made against the MIHOP theory is that "Larry Silverstein would never destroy his own building! How could that possibly benefit him?"

My take on Larry Silverstein is this: if he had wanted to demolish the WTC legally, he'd have had to pay oodles of money to protect himself against the legal ramifications of blanketing the entire area in dangerous dust. And God knows what else he'd have to pony up for out of his own pocket to get the building demolished and carted away. I don't think he'd be able to get an insurance company to insure against something that would DEFINITELY happen, i.e. dust, debris damage to buildings, possible human injury, property damage to cars, necessity to clear the neighborhood during demolition, loss of business in the area, etc.

I mean, really: How could anyone demolish the tallest buildings in the world--which have a relatively tiny footprint and exist cheek-by-jowl with hundreds of other buildings--without creating just the pile of dangerous dust and debris that it did create? Even emptying the building of its contents and removing structural elements wouldn't have been enough for a perfectly clean demolition (and would have cost money to do) with NO deleterious effects on the surrounding area. Tort lawsuits would spring up like mushrooms after rain.

Who'd want the financial and legal responsibility for pulling the WTC buildings, even if you wanted the property for a more profitable purpose?

Silverstein profited quite well (doubly so!) from the towers' collapse. Could he have profited from them as handsomely if he demolished them himself and rebuilt? I doubt it.

Why not ask some nobel laureate physicists?
Posted by: daw13 on Jul 13, 2006 8:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't just mean why doesn't Griffin do this, I mean why doesn't Allen do this? How hard would it be?

What could happen? A Nobel laureate isn't going to tell a professional lie. It would damage him/her among his/her peers. On the other hand, s/he might not want to tell the truth if it might make powerful people mad. So s/he might simply refuse to respond.

Therefore, two responses are most likely: (1) it was the planes alone and here's why; or (2) no response. Either answer would provide useful info.

I am baffled that Griffin didn't do this. But I'm equally baffled that Allen didn't, either.

SO NOW WHAT
Posted by: Ahimsa on Jul 13, 2006 8:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Something disturbs me:
So many people believe in the inaccuracy of the Government's version, which is totally justified due to innumerable incongruencies and disturbing evidence.
The stench of the lie is such, there is so much rotten fish it could fill up a tanker. So...
Why are we so quiet? Where's the marches, the screaming on the streets? The activists? The big mobilizations to ask for truth? The panflets and zines? The signs on freeways? Why aren't those millions and millions out there? Why are we so quiet...? What's wrong?

Thanks Terry and Alternet for allowing us to debunk you!
Posted by: kellysgarden on Jul 13, 2006 9:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a great read this has been, all these 400+ comments. I sincerely thank Alternet and Terry for publishing this and allowing the readers to thoroughly debunk you! Score one more victory for the 911Truth movement!!!!!!!!!!!

I am so happy . . .
Posted by: owleyes on Jul 13, 2006 9:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that someone on the left is finally saying something about this. We all criticize the religious right for fear-mongering and apocalyptic sensationalism. But then a strong contingent of liberals ("progressives" if you prefer) turn around and project their own doomsday scenarios and global conspiracies of Pure Unmitigated Evil onto current events. What if all of it: 9/11, Iraq, and Katrina boiled down to a boring combination of greed, stupidity, poor management and arrogance? Would our government be any less deserving of opposition than if a global conspiracy were involved?

» Poor management CAN be illegal Posted by: LeonDion
» {{sigh}} Posted by: reprehensor
» Hear, hear Posted by: mokidugway
Here's a question
Posted by: SteveB on Jul 13, 2006 9:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For the advocates of the "controlled demolition" theory:
We know that a controlled demolition of buildings much smaller that the World Trade Center requires weeks of preparation, thousands of pounds of explosives, and miles of electrical cable to connect those explosives together.
So how was it done? How did government operatives prepare three buildings for demolition without anybody noticing? Remember, some of the financal firms operating in the twin towers were engaged in 24 hour a day operations, so there was never a time when these buildings were unoccupied.

» RE: Here's a question Posted by: kellysgarden
» That's not an answer Posted by: SteveB
» RE: That's not an answer Posted by: kellysgarden
» Sorry, still not an answer Posted by: SteveB
» RE: Sorry, still not an answer Posted by: kellysgarden
» Marvin Bush red herring Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Marvin Bush red herring Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: Here's a question Posted by: CarlP77
» RE: Here's a question Posted by: SteveB
» RE: Here's a question Posted by: CarlP77
» Let's be realistic Posted by: SteveB
» RE: Let's be realistic Posted by: CarlP77
» They did notice. Posted by: 50566
What a touching demonstration of faith in the US government
Posted by: SteveB on Jul 13, 2006 10:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By the 911 theorists, I mean. Read through their comments, and it's clear that they believe that the US government is incapable of failure. If the government ever appears to fail, it can only be because it deliberately intends to fail.

If the the goverment failed to prevent the attacks, it can only be because the government didn't want to prevent them.
If the US air force failed to shoot down the planes, it can only be because they were ordered not to.

But what is this confidence in the efficacy of our government and military based on? Can anyone, especially after the past 3 blood-soaked years in Iraq, really believe that the US government (and especially the US military) has even a minimal level of competence? These are the guys who couldn't supply our troops with armored humvees or body armor, after all.

Anyone who studies the history of our military should know that they have a long history of screw-ups. The most likely explanation of the events of 9/11 is that it's just another example of governmental and military incompetence.

» What a cartload of ad hom hooey! Posted by: reprehensor
» NO, that's not it... Posted by: 50566
What it all boils down to...
Posted by: LeonDion on Jul 13, 2006 10:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... is who runs the government?

A small cabal of "insiders", who are able to dictate to the population the questions which are "acceptable" to ask?

Or the people who pay all of their salaries, through profits, taxes, taxes, fees, duties, taxes, and inflation (govt. expansion / dilution of the money supply)?

The insider's cabal have lunch with the Senate, then happy hour drinks with the press. They hold the threat of poverty and disgrace over any within their influence who might challenge them. They frame the debate, paying jackals like O'Reilley and Coulter to savagely discredit those who follow the "wrong line of thinking".

America is facing bankruptcy, due to the plundering by many connected to the insider's cabal. (St. Louis Fed debates whether US is bankrupt - pdf) This is exactly what happened before the Former Soviet Union collapsed -- insiders plundered the country's resources, then suddenly the whole thing came down. It can happen here.

Wake up. Decide now how you want your country to be run. Change is coming up quick. There's nothing you can do to stop it. How you respond to the challenges you are about to face is what matters.

Interesting thing about "progressives"
Posted by: mdf1960 on Jul 13, 2006 2:14 PM   
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Well, considering that most progressives believe that government can solve poverty, give everyone great free health care, clean up the environment, end racism and sexism, raise everyone's wages and give everybody two chickens in every pot, it's not surprising that many also think the government could pull off the most complicated conspiracy in history. Even more clever than the faked moon landing, which they have supressed for 35 years!

Duane Behrens
Posted by: Duane Behrens on Jul 13, 2006 2:15 PM   
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I personally found Ms. Allen's essay less than engaging, simply because she refuses to discuss specifics of 9/11, preferring instead to have a go at those of us who merely question the official explanation.

When an official agency - in this case FEMA, or FBI, or the NIST, or the NTSB, or the Kean Commission - offers up an explanation of how something occurred, I believe they have a responsibility to provide evidence to back up that explanation. Certainly they had access to that evidence.

But the evidence was not just ignored, it was removed from the crime scene. Now, why would the FBI commit a crime (i.e. destruction of evidence) in order to investigate a crime? They took control of the site within hours (perhaps within
minutes) of the tragedy. Why did they allow and/or direct the destruction of evidence that could have proven the very explanation they would later provide?

It makes no sense. And we have a right to ask the questions.

Regarding the building collapsing from its top downward . . . yes, it would have required explosives periodically spaced in perimeter floors through the vertical length of the building (unless some newer technology was employed), wired
remotely to detonate in sequence and combined with much larger charges at the base of each core and periodically along the cores' vertical lengths.

All of which jives perfectly with the available video evidence of each building's collapse, the retrieval of microscopic bits of computers and drywall after the collapse, firemen's accounts of the sound and feel of tremendous explosions just seconds before the collapse, "squibs" of debris seen shooting out from floors directly below collapsing floors above, video of the initial fall of WTC 2's central spire, and MIT Professor King's honest little lecture linked below -

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8533904938803031452

- and NONE of which jives with the "proof through animation" models placed in front of us by both FEMA and NIST.

» How? Posted by: SteveB
There is something comforting...
Posted by: gonzoskismet on Jul 13, 2006 3:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...about Marvin P. Bush, the Presidents younger brother being over the company responsible for security at the WTC and Dulles airport on the morning of 9/11. There is something comforting in the fact that everybody seems to be ignoring this fact. There is something comforting in the idea that this can't happen here and anybody that thinks it can wears tinfoil hats, are paranoid of microwaves and see UFOS in every twinkling light in the sky.
But the ugly, junkyard dog mean ass reality, my lovelies, is that it CAN happen here. And it can be people you have trusted to run your little show who do it. So, wake up and smell the coffee. They could have and they probably DID execute 3000+ people on 9/11 just to meet their agenda. And you bought it hook, line and sinker.
Now, whether they actually followed the PNAC plan up right and to the letter or whether Bush was warned by the CIA
on August 6, 2001 and just went back to fishing, cutting brush and having a high old vacation is still the question. That's why we need a REALLY investigation into this by a non-partisan, independent committee that answers to no one but the American people. Until that happens (fat chance!) there will always be doubts about what really went down on 9/11.
No matter how you look at it, this weakens everybodies trust in the Democratic process just like the JFK, Martin Luther King and RFK assasinations did. Some Americans have the sneaking feeling that they're being lied to and they just want to know why. Is that too much ask?

Just the Facts, man.
Posted by: gonzoskismet on Jul 13, 2006 4:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wait a minute, man. There was a government conspiracy to fake the moon landings but there WASN'T a government conspiracy in the 9/11 thing because 'progressives' expect the goverment to provide health care, etc. to the people that support it with their taxes.
First, let's get basic. I'm going to explain the moon landing thing to you like I had to with my father, who was born in 1925.
You do know what a skyrocket is, right? You light it, it goes up then it comes down. Well, imagine a REALLY BIG skyrocket that goes up and don't come down. Ever take Physics 101? Remember Newtons Three Laws of Motion? Actually that should be enough to prime the pump. But then again, I guess
'Creation Theory' kinda put old Newton in his place, didn't it?
Uppity bastard! How dare he out think God!
Now the facts, boyoo, whether you like them or not because reality doesn't give a rats ass whether you do or don't. Americans landed on the moon on July 20, 1969. It was the greatest thing that ever happened to the human race but because of our Congress that dream was nipped in the bud really quick. Can't let the peons get uppity can we?
9/11 may or may not have occured because of George W. Bush but we won't ever know because the REAL conspracies
are right under your noses and everybody wants you to look THIS away, not THAT away. The facts are, we would rather play with the realities we can accept rather than the realities we can't. UGLY REALITIES SUCK, DON'T THEY?

» OH YEA BABY! Posted by: 50566
Demand a new 911 article. Griffin vs Allen
Posted by: RoryB on Jul 13, 2006 4:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All commenter's here should demand of Alternet a new 9/11 Article. Lets see a debate between Allen and David Ray Griffin, or at least a rebuttle to this article by Griffin or any other 9/11 expert willing to take him on.

http://www.alternet.org/feedback/

Another shill job article by ITT
Posted by: RoryB on Jul 13, 2006 6:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another shill job article by ITT.

Quoted from ITT

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2444/

"Berlet isn’t alone in wondering what happened to Griffin. In These Times Contributing Editor Terry Allen, a former editor at Amnesty International, is similarly unimpressed. “I respect Griffin, but he’s just wrong on his theories,” she says. Allen spent two months assessing the major conspiracy theories concerning 9/11 and she has concluded there is not much to any of them—especially Griffin’s. “I found plausible explanations for most of the things he disputes. I think part of it is that he’s a theologian who operates on faith,” says Allen.

Griffin should respond to this.

Demand a debate.

» I DEmanD a DEbaTE! Posted by: 50566
this woman is in deep denial, to be kind...
Posted by: 50566 on Jul 13, 2006 7:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
omg, what a stretch... incredibly brilliant logic, Terry. NOT!!!!!!!! OH YEA, I'm a crazy looney, whatever makes ya feel better. Just keep saying we're idiots, that'll make everything alright again...

What is Alternet thinking??? Alternet is wimpy.

I don't know what evidence the author is talking about...
Posted by: borepstein on Jul 13, 2006 8:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I have sure got evidence enough to prove that things could not have happened the way the official account of the events of 9/11 would have us believe. Here's a summary:

9/11: the impossible, the improbable, the implausible

This I believe proves conclusively that the official theory is bogus.

I do not know exactly what happened; there is indeed a possibility that is was an "inside job". But if you ant me to believe the official theory - you present your evidence.

The Left establishment's attack on 9/11 skeptics
Posted by: RoryB on Jul 13, 2006 8:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Left establishment's attack on 9/11 skeptics
http://www.questionsquestions.net/topics/left_911.html

ALTERNATIVE MEDIA CENSORSHIP:
SPONSORED BY CIA's FORD FOUNDATION?

http://www.questionsquestions.net/gatekeepers.html

http://www.questionsquestions.net/feldman/feldman01.html

Funding Chart
http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/chart.htm

How "the Left" helped Bush cover-up 9/11
Posted by: RoryB on Jul 13, 2006 8:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.oilempire.us/gatekeepers.html

How "the Left" helped Bush cover-up 9/11

the "stand down" of the foundation-funded liberal / left "alternative" media

Progressive Censorship about the reasons for the "War on Terror"

jones666
Posted by: jones666 on Jul 13, 2006 8:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bush admin. has blatantly lied about everything since day one but you can't figure out why so many people think there was some level of involvement in 9/11. Anyone semi-conscious who has spent any time at all looking over the literally mountains of 9/11 evidence or lack there of is compelled to at least consider the possibility of one of many theories. The obvious cover-ups, distractions from, destruction of evidence, contradictions between govt. issue
propaganda(FEMA's oficial WTC 7 collapse report) and what
eyewitnesses, scientists and independent researchers are saying, not to mention the cops and firefighters at the scene. No gag orders there. Oh, that's right... global warming, darwin's work and music are all still theories.

Inexcusable Denials of the "Left" Media
Posted by: RoryB on Jul 13, 2006 9:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Failed Obligations and Inexcusable Denials of the "Left" Media

http://www.newtopiamagazine.net/articles/40


Quoted:

To offer a clear portrait of how "regulated resistance" works within the "Left" or "progressive" media, consider their steadfast refusal to report on or organize around two of the most important incidents in modern American history as pertains to our present situation—possible US government involvement in 9/11, and the relationship between the Bush family and the Nazi regime in Germany.

» several stories in one Posted by: aurora2484
Ms Allen: "cynically using the bodies"
Posted by: aurora2484 on Jul 14, 2006 12:38 AM   
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Ms Allen writes: And the 9/11 conspiracy hypotheses distracts from the growing chain of evidence documenting how the Bush administration actually manipulated this country to war on a train of lies riding tracks of fear -- cynically using the bodies of the 9/11 victims as fuel.

Taking her last phrase first, at least 50 families of victims of the 9/11 attacks are calling for a new investigation (ref below), so what is she actually saying here? She seems to be suggesting that they are somehow traitors to their country by wanting to know the truth of what happened (now where else have I heard that kind of suggestion lately - that search for truth = lack of patriotism.. hmm). On 11th Sept 2001 a then-family friend's mother was on the flight that apparently crashed into the Pentagon. Does her family have no rights to ever know for sure what happened to her?

Now as for the Bush admin manipulating the country to war, was he not doing so BY VIRTUE OF the events of 9/11? If so, would it not make more sense to include a better understanding of the events of that day, in understanding the rest of what happened - in all that followed? Why ignore the cornerstone and only examine the veneer, the paintwork, the rest of the facade?

ref: W. David Kubiak: "The 9/11 Key to Political Transformation"

Please don't fight us, we are on your team.
Posted by: 50566 on Jul 14, 2006 12:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know you don't want to believe our gov. could do this. You have become a debunker because it frightens you, and that's totally understandable. The mind finds ways to protect itself. I've read things wrong because the truth was more than I could handle. In essence, we are threatening YOUR faith, for we are the faithless. In your fear, you feel you must warn people away from us, engage others in the fight to undermine our facts. You want to blame us for the continuing war, as if we are causing people to support it. But we do not distract those who support the war, for they don't take us seriously. It is your group who threatens them, not us. And going further down the rabbit hole, we in turn threaten you somehow. But we are on your team, we were there from the beginning. We have never denied anything. Please think about redirecting your energies away from fighting us as a dangerous group that must be silenced. We have not lied to you, we have only questioned. Please do not distract yourself and others with a rally cry against us, try to embarrass us into silence, get us to quit digging through that vast pile. We want peace and we want what you want. We agree with you that lies must be recognized before we can find the road to peace. We are pleased that you have joined us in spirit, recognizing the lies surrounding the war. We don't have to share all the same ideas or questions, but we must share the goals, work together. We must not blame or attack each other, for peace must begin with us. We must start with you and I. Peace be with you, may we learn to trust in each other's wisdom.

» Ad hom attack Posted by: brunowe
. David Griffin
Posted by: aurora2484 on Jul 14, 2006 2:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wikipedia introduce him as "a full-time academic from 1973 until April 2004", when he retired.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ray_Griffin

He is the author of both these books:
"A New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9-11" (2004), and
"The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions".

For an interesting insight into both the man and his books, there is this site:
http://bohemian.com/bohemian/
06.14.06/david-ray-griffin-0624.html

» RE: Active link David Griffin Posted by: LeonDion
» RE: Active link David Griffin Posted by: aurora2484
debate with Ms Allen would be worse than meaningless
Posted by: aurora2484 on Jul 14, 2006 3:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
she has sold out - there is nothing there that is genuine - it is all spin.

so please, stop those STUPID suggestions that anyone at all should debate a pseudo-sophisticated troll (for that is what you turn into when you sell your soul - when you sell your own truth for whatever price). Trolls of all stripe feed off "debates" - it is a shotcut to an appearance of validity. (imnsho)
(end-of-rant)

If not debate, then honest reporting and accountability.
Posted by: RoryB on Jul 14, 2006 5:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The media, including the left media, should not be unaccountable for disinformation and shill articles, a debate may not solve anything here BUT Alternet has a responsibility to not give articles like this a free pass without examination, Isn't that what editors are for?

What about the OTHER 9/11 Faith movement?
Posted by: RudiTuzla on Jul 14, 2006 10:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know, the one where a huge percentage of right-wingers STILL believe that Saddam was involved... therefore justifying the invasion of Iraq.... even though Bush himself has publicly stated that there is no evidence of Iraqi involvement.

Now that's really a faith movement.

The only false flag operation here is Lyndon LaRouche's
Posted by: Izzy Stoner on Jul 14, 2006 12:06 PM   
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LaRouche's organization concocted the intellectual framework for the 9/11 truth movement just days after attack. His buddy Mike Ruppert channeled this neofascist conspiracy theory into the progressive community without telling you all where he was getting this information. The seeds of their initial disinformation became the foundation of the 9/11 truth movement. Most of what they say is true and can be independently verified, but their grandest claims are lies. That's how the process works: three truths followed by a lie. Unless you fact check every single one of their claims, you will have inadvertantly swallowed some serious lies. It is impossible not to. In this way, the left has been duped by the ultra-right. They want you to distrust all sources of information except that which comes from their fringe. LaRouche doesn't need you to join his movement -- he just wants to sow extreme distrust and paranoia which give him more room to operate (not that we don't have endless reasons to distrust this government already). Read back issues of LaRouche's Executive Intelligence Review and you will see that he was the first to float the "inside job" by Cheney thesis and Ruppert dutifully picked it up and gave it to progressives. If you want to learn how their cult indoctrination process works, look at http://tinyurl.com/66qxc but I fear most of you have already drunk the LaRouche Koolaid without even realizing it.

My doubts began September 12, 2001
Posted by: la urracca on Jul 14, 2006 1:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A recent previous poster would have us believe our doubts were planted...but that is certainly not so in my case.
In the midst of my tears ( I think I cried for two weeks, after 9-11), on 9-12, I turned to my husband and said" Do you think...that our government could have had a hand in this...??"
Even then it did not add up for me. I saw the original video of Bush ( on TV) reading to the kids...starng beyond measure. And then...we must not forget how terribly angry so much of the country was, about the election...remember? Bush's hold on the country was very tenuous...his polls were in the basement. This was a great " stroke of luck' for his presidency...
And so many other things...
A previous poster here said the red flag for him was Building number seven...and I agree. There is no good explanation for it...except demolition...and that had to be planned in advance. It takes quite a long time to prepare a building for demolition..not just a day or two.
Someone asks...how could this be kept secret? Well...it has not ...the secrets are leaking out. And this despite the rapid removal of evidence from the scene.I fervently hope that the full truth comes out...soon.
And I applaud the (now so very many) people who refuse to accept the offical story. It stinks.

Don't Be Too Quick To Judge
Posted by: cwdalzell on Jul 14, 2006 1:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd just like to know which allegations have been debunked. Mr. Allen doesn't say. He just says those of us who question the official version of events are wackos (because he says so) and that if one assumption is proved wrong then the whole argument is incorrect (Gee, that would apply to every scientific theory in history!) Is Allen also against evolution and gravilty?

He neglects to mention that the American people are also incredibly naive when it comes to believing debunkers who haven't debunked anything (as many posts here show). Remember, all of these "superior" debunkers have also maintained that the elections were not stolen or tampered with. The evidence clearly refutes them and I would love to watch Allen try and defend those claims against the like of a Papantonio or a Palast.

I do not claim to know exactly what happened on 9/11, but unlike these self-righteous people obessed with maintaining control over the message who respond to every charge with accusations of "conspiracy theory", I am willing to view the allegations, that have not been, by anyone, shown to be the product of the dread "cpnsiracy theory." The allegations actually, contrary to Allen's boldfaced ignorance and bloated ego, have been and continue to be made by SCIENTISTS and other distinguished academics, especially those in NY (ya know the people who were there.) He is also discrediting out of hand firefighters and other city workers (again, who were there) who contradict the offical story.

I would point out the fact that all other "conspiracy theories" are treated in a like manner, i.e. THEY ARE IGNORED. Why are the questions concerning 9/11 not simply ignored? On the contrary, those who make the allegations are threatened, the links are removed, etc. This makes no sense unless there's something to it. I reiterate, I do not know exactly what happened on that day, BUT, neither do you and neither does this arrogant prick Allen who, to be honest, sounds like a Repug.

I humbly suggest that everyone watch the videos for yourselves and don't listen to self-absorbed pundits. Every person I raised questions to responded with the "conspiracy theory" nonsense, but, after having seen the videos, could no longer be so brazen. These people are not, as Allen would have you believe, somehow incapable of understanding reality or intellectually stunted. They are probably, in general, more educated than Allen (at least I would like to make the charge considering this unsupported rant).

Everyone who is unfamiliar with the Project for the New American Century needs to go to either www.newamericancentury.org or www.pnac.info and download and read "Rebuilding America's Defenses," particularly page 51, before they come up with any suppositions about that awful day. Read it, because people, such as Allen, don't want you to know the truth or question anything. I say that because, at every opportunity, they attempt to stifle all conversation and debate on the matter. How else does one find the truth? What better way to expose the questions about 9/11 as a "conspiracy theory" than by discussing it in the public arena. But no. No one is allowed to challenge the almighty Punditocracy, even though the people being accused of being involved in planning the event or ignoring the warnings have committed similar crimes all across Latin america and other parts of the globe. They have NO loyalty to the United States.

Lastly, I am ashamed of Alternet for printing such an unsupported and condescending load of pap. Progressives never simply buy the official line, especially from an administration as criminal as the Bush White House.

» Who has been threatened? Posted by: SteveB
What evidence is there?
Posted by: Takeit on Jul 14, 2006 2:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, it's kind of a leep to believe the governments conspiracy theory that those planes where hijacked and used as weapons on 9/11.
Are there any bodies to proove they where actually there?
What about actually analysing the debris of the Trade Center?
Why where people, in the basement of the towers, treated for third degree burns and reported hearing expolosions in the same area?
Are we supposed to assume since they have some airport security footage of the "terrorists" boarding the plane that they indeed where planning on hijacking and crashing those same planes.
If you ask me, the official story is pretty much based on the same faith as the new conspiracies are.

» RE: What evidence is there? Posted by: kogwonton
Boo, hiss
Posted by: Maelfyn on Jul 14, 2006 2:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll have to give a big, fat thumbs down to this post. Review the evidence using critical, logical analysis and if that doesn't change your mind that something is at least seriously wrong with the official story, then I don't know what to say. It's impossible to logically reconcile all of the problems with the official story.

You can see thermate reactions pouring out of the south tower right before it collapses.

Gatekeeper site
Posted by: Maelfyn on Jul 14, 2006 2:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, and after reading through these comments it looks like this is a gatekeeper site. This is the last time I come here!

» RE: Gatekeeper site Posted by: jeanie
» RE: Gatekeeper site Posted by: unperson
Intelligence agencies beat LaRouche to it.
Posted by: RoryB on Jul 14, 2006 4:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Numerous warnings of the planned attacks came in months before the attack, Egyptian and Indian intelligence, and our own undercover agents, knew well beforehand what was coming. However it was officially ignored.

Read the The Big Wedding: 911, The Whistle-blowers and the Cover-Up by Sander Hicks for an eye opener.

http://www.gunsandbutter.net/archives.php?

Excerpts from

http://www.americanhiroshima.info/911warnings.htm

Late Summer 2001: US Intelligence Learns al-Qaeda Is Considering Mounting Terrorist Operations in the US [9/11 Congressional Inquiry, 9/18/02]

June 13, 2001: Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak claims Bin Laden Wants to Assassinate Bush with an Explosives-Filled Airplane [New York Times, 9/26/01]

July 2001: India Warns US of Possible Terror Attacks [Fox News, 5/17/02]

Late July 2001: Egypt Warns CIA of 20 al-Qaeda Operatives in US; Four Training to Fly; CIA Is Not Interested [CBS News, 10/9/02]

August 30-September 4, 2001: Egyptian President Hasni Mubarak Warns al-Qaeda Is in Advanced Stages of Planning Significant Attack on US [Associated Press, 12/7/01]

Distraction from Bush admin's documented actions
Posted by: johndoraemi on Jul 14, 2006 4:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FULL ARTICLE HERE

They Lied Repeatedly About Being Warned

The White House Press Secretary, Ari Flieischer, aboard Air Force One that day, was asked if there were any warnings. His two word response to the press: "No warnings."

Similarly, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice lied continuously about pre-9/11 warnings:

"No one predicted that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile..." -Condoleezza Rice, CBS News, 5/17/02

"And had this President known of something more specific, or known that a plane was going to be used as a missile, he would have acted on it. (...) To the degree that hijacking was an issue, it was traditional hijacking." -Press Briefing by National Security Advisor Dr. Condoleezza Rice, May 16 2002, Whitehouse

So why weren't airport screeners warned? She admits here that "hijacking WAS an issue."

"Had we thought that there was an attack coming in Washington or New York, we would have moved heaven and earth to try and stop it." -Rice to 9-11 Commission, CNN

That's interesting, since the opposite was true:

"Newspapers in Germany, France, Russia and London reported in the months before September 11th of a blizzard of warnings delivered to the Bush administration from all points on the compass. The German intelligence service BND warned American and Israeli agencies that terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft and use them as weapons to attack important American targets. Egypt warned of a similar plane-based plot against Bush during the G-8 summit in Genoa last June, a warning taken so seriously that anti-aircraft batteries were placed around Columbus Airport in Italy."

"Last August (2001), Russian intelligence services notified the CIA that 25 terrorist pilots had been trained for suicide missions, and Putin himself confirmed that this warning was delivered "in the strongest possible terms" specifically regarding threats to airports and government buildings. In that same month, the Israeli security agency Mossad issued a warning to both the FBI and CIA that up to 200 bin Laden followers were planning a major assault on America, aimed at vulnerable targets. The Los Angeles Times later confirmed via unnamed US officials that the Mossad warnings had been received." -Newsweek, May 20, 2002

In Genoa, at the G-8 summit, it was reported:

"U.S. President George W. Bush will not stay with other world leaders because of fear of terrorist attack." -G8 summit death shocks leaders, CNN, July 21, 2001

(...)

And, of course the famous Presidential Daily Briefing:

"Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.(...) CIA and the FBI are investigating a call to our embassy in the UAE in May saying that a group of Bin Ladin supporters was in the US planning attacks with explosives." -August 6, 2001, Presidents' Daily Briefing (heavily redacted unclassified version)

“White House officials acknowledged that U.S. intelligence officials informed President Bush weeks before the Sept. 11 attacks that bin Laden's terrorist network might try to hijack American planes.” -What Happened? Bush Was Warned of Hijackings Before 9/11; Lawmakers Want Public Inquiry,ABC News, 5/16/02

After Bush received numerous warnings, and after his own experience at the Genoa summit, his behavior during the September 11th attacks is either the result of massive brain trauma, or it reveals something far more sinister.

Cherry picking your targets
Posted by: johndoraemi on Jul 14, 2006 5:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's open season on the 9-11 truth movement.

One site holds up "Loose Change" as the be all and end all of evidence.

Another one tells us that Alex Jones is the leader, and Larry Silverstein is our strongest evidence.

BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT.

My latest article: 9/11: Ignorance is Strength?" presents hard evidence of individuals in the administration helping the attacks to succeed. That's the kind of hard to refute evidence that isn't so easy to poke fun of. It requires some thought and analysis.

» RE: Cherry picking your targets Posted by: borepstein
What about the role of Bush's brothers on 9/11
Posted by: FairFight on Jul 15, 2006 4:56 AM   
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Neil and Marvin Bushs' connection with with the Arab company that held security contracts with Dulles Airport, American Airlines and the World Trade Center, ALL at the time of the crashes on 9/11. Neil is the one who single-handedly brought down the savings and loan industry; and was only given a $50,000 fine.

George Bush's reading to school children at the exact time of the 9/11 crashes. With no marching bands or an auduence of military personnel. Come on. He looked more like someone trying hastily to set up an alibi than a responsible president.

This was one of George Bushs' famous distraction ploys to take the publics' mind off an extremely contentious election. In one fell swoop, he went from pretender to the throne to America's hero pledging to avenge the attacks.

No one benefitted from 9/11 more than George Bush; and, he's been playing that card ever since.

His plan had always been to become a war-time president and to expand his power under the "War Powers Act"

I am definitely a conspiracy theorist; and I don't think killing 3,000 americans to get his way would have given him pause for one second. Afterall, he has killed that many Americans in Iraq!

I subscribe to the "make lemonade" theory
Posted by: BitcoDavid on Jul 15, 2006 7:34 AM   
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I don't believe the government conspired to bring down the towers, but I do believe that they chose to use it as a casus belli. Here's how I see it going down. Bush and his cronies spent 8 months ignoring every piece of evidence that a catastrophe was imminent, because that information was provided by Clinton appointees. When that catastrophe finally occurred, after spending 12 hours playing "Duck and Cover" on Air Force One, when they finally had him on the ground, Rove told Bush, "Here's your Reichstag fire."

Reply
Posted by: Alex Zeka on Jul 15, 2006 2:50 PM   
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So Bush is a gibbering idiot who has fooled the entire world over his involvement in 11/9? The IQ of a typical conspiracy theorist must be firmly encased in the double digits.

And don't worry, plenty of right-wingers seem to believe there's a conspiracy aswell: y'know, the David Duke, Libya-fancying sorts.

Reply
Posted by: Alex Zeka on Jul 15, 2006 2:50 PM   
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So Bush is a gibbering idiot who has fooled the entire world over his involvement in 11/9? The IQ of a typical conspiracy theorist must be firmly encased in the double digits.

And don't worry, plenty of right-wingers seem to believe there's a conspiracy aswell: y'know, the David Duke, Libya-fancying sorts.

Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?
Posted by: willymack on Jul 15, 2006 6:54 PM   
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Uh, WHAT contrary evidence, Terry? The manufactured crap in the 9/11 Commission report? It's asswipe-pure & simple. The REAL evidence is what engineers and scientists-at the top of their respective fields have published. These distinguished professionals all say pretty much the same thing, and they aren't political or bushie stooges. I'd much sooner believe them than the chimp-in-charge.

Best of the week? Are you kidding?
Posted by: RoryB on Jul 15, 2006 9:37 PM   
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This article gets a post on the Alternet home page under Best of the Week.

I think its accurate to say that its the WORST of the week. What makes it worth reading is all of the comments posted here that accurately discredit this shoddy piece of so called journalism.

I have to ask
Posted by: mazel on Jul 16, 2006 4:17 AM   
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Why, if the government was actually responsible for 9/11 in order to start war with Iraq, would they later blame Osama Bin Laden, and not Saddam Hussein? This is the number one reason to doubt a conspiracy on that level.

However, this is not to say they didn't know about it ahead of time and allowed it to happen. I think they saw a rare opportunity and made plans to take advantage of it. This I can believe very easily, judging from their actions afterward. Of course, this type of complicity makes them as guilty as the perpetrators themselves.

» mazel, I found the link Posted by: Loverain
» RE: mazel, I found the link Posted by: brunowe
» RE: I have to ask Posted by: rverne8
extremely poor article
Posted by: chomsky on Jul 16, 2006 7:21 AM   
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Some works of "journalism" turn out to be little more than baseless rants that attempt--and yet woefully fail--to substantiate the pathetic cognitive existence of their authors. This one is near to the the top of that detritus pile.

Big events need big answers
Posted by: Dr.Ed on Jul 16, 2006 7:35 AM   
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The main reason I have trouble believing 9/11 was staged was it would require government competence. But asking to have these issues resolved is the duty of the government. Clearly part of the mistrust is because of the administrations lack of openess and part because on such a huge event loose ends sink ships. It is the governements job to answer to it's citizens. If they can have hearing on striods in baseball they can certainly redo and reinvestigate and try and answer the questions the public still has.

After Katriona and the war in Iraq if this administration had something to do with 9/11 they must have used up all their wits! After all the gov covered up Perl Harbor and had forgotten to burn memos like: Bin Laden determined to strike in US!!

--------------------------------------
Toronto Secular Alliance

9/11 was an inside job
Posted by: Loverain on Jul 16, 2006 7:36 AM   
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If you insists the official story is correct, please enter Jimmy Walter's

$1,000,000.00 Challenge
http://www.reopen911.org/Contest.htm

or join

THE NATIONAL 9/11 DEBATE
http://www.teamliberty.net/id244.html

as a representative of the Government to prove that we are wrong. Cause nobody has entered Jimmy's contest, nor any representative of the Government's wishes to come it seems.

Good luck! LOL

» RE: 9/11 was an inside job Posted by: brunowe
Americans love a conspiracy, this includes the government
Posted by: rverne8 on Jul 16, 2006 8:08 AM   
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The article fails to mention some facts: the official whitewash version of 9/11 events, written by a longtime bosom Bush buddy, Phillip Zelikow, contains the conspiracy theory that members of Al Qaeda were responsible for the World Trade Center going down-without offering any proof that card carrying members of that group were on the planes. Allen mentions his long search through facts surronding 9/11 without showing us any published results. The author he criticizes, David Ray Griffen, has published two books IThe 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions And Distortions and The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11
and has summarized the issue of the buildings in the World Trade Center at :http://www.911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1_toc.html
Maybe Allen should take a look at Griffen's books, follow up on all the phoney leads (there are hundreds) in the Zekilow whitewash and rewrite his article.

tinman
Posted by: tinman on Jul 16, 2006 8:33 AM   
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although i'm not a building engineer i've been in construction all my life you don't do that without learning a few things about building structures we were attacked by terrorist the planes they hyjacked caused the building to fall i was home sick the day it happened and watched over and over again the day of the event and i know what i'm talking about the only conspiracy our government was involved in was the one to get our support to go to iraq now that was a conspiracy try to stay focused. afghanistan was one thing iraq we were the fools we took the bait we'll be eating that for years cause now we can't get off the line

Inside job?
Posted by: Izzy Stoner on Jul 16, 2006 9:08 AM   
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So if 9/11 was really a government “inside job”, then why did they go to the trouble of forging Saudi passports for the hijackers? Why not simply plant Iraqi passports? Wouldn’t that have made INFINITELY more sense? Bush & Cheney wouldn’t have had to make up bogus WMD claims in order to justify their invasion of Iraq. Are you suggesting that the US government can orchestrate something as elaborate as 9/11, but lacks the ability to forge a simple passport? The only exercise these self-appointed Truth seekers get is from jumping to conclusions. Humpty Dumpty was pushed -- I read it on the internet!

» RE: Inside job? Posted by: dingo
» Simplistic Thinking Posted by: johndoraemi
» RE: Simplistic Thinking Posted by: Izzy Stoner
The biggest "pile" is this article. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jul 16, 2006 11:00 AM   
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nm

dingo
Posted by: dingo on Jul 16, 2006 12:13 PM   
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Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that Ms. Allen’s view of 9/11 is valid. The ‘official’ Bush Administration conspiracy scenario is entirely true and all competing models are false.

Does it then follow that the numerous skeptics are foolish and unscientific—their minds clouded by faith?

In fact, it is the Bush Administration, the Pentagon, and their supplicants in the corporate mass media that have done the most to catalyze suspicion and skepticism about 9/11. It is, in fact, they who have demanded that we take everything on faith, stifled open inquiry, suppressed evidence and information, stonewalled investigations—even Congressional investigations—and done everything imaginable to make it appear to many reasonable observers that they have much to hide.

If you want to read more of this....

I tried to respond at some lenght to Ms. Allen's attack on the gullible 9/11 skeptics, but AlterNet prefers to limit the lengths of posts.

So my response is posted here.
http://devildingo.blogspot.com/