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Don't Bow To God's Bullies

By Rev. Jim Rigby, Huffington Post. Posted June 15, 2006.


If you want to know why Americans are so frightened and why we attack anything that challenges our dominance over others, read the Bible.

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Whereas American theology was born out of a hope for democracy, much of it is wedded to a picture of Christ as a benevolent dictator. Should we be surprised that a hierarchical cosmology would produce hierarchical churches and nations? Should we be surprised that religious nations that picture Christ as a loving dictator have produced conquistadors, inquisitors and crusaders?  

What else could they produce? As the tree is, so shall be the fruit.   The word "Lord" was not in the original Bible. It is an English word from feudal times. Whereas the Greek word kurios had a range of meanings, from a title of respect to a title of leadership to a name for the sacred, the English translation "Lord" refers specifically to a male European land baron. Many people have softened that interpretation in their own minds, but in times of great stress, such nuance falls away and many Christians seek a white male king. He may be called "Pope" he may be called "the decider President," he may be called "televangelist," but the title only masks what he is, a benevolent (or not so benevolent) dictator.  

Neither Calvin nor Luther spoke English, but they helped the Popes lay the groundwork for the view of God as a cosmic dictator. From Popes, Luther and Calvin we have some of the ugliest slurs ever recorded against women, intellectuals and those who refused the church's message. How did Christians hold slaves, oppress women and slaughter nonbelievers? Perhaps they could not see Christ in non-male, non-European, and non-Christian people because they were limited by their theology. Their "Christ" was merely a glorification of the most powerful member of their own culture.  

To picture God in terms of power is also one of the great bait-and-switch gimmicks of all time. People within the power hierarchy proclaim that God is the ultimate authority, and then appoint themselves as God's interpreters and enforcers. They are God's humble bullies. It has been one of the most successful con games of all time.  

The real Jesus was born illegitimately. He called himself "the human one." Just like Buddha, his authority came from truth, not power. He taught whoever has love has God. He said those who work for the common good are his church.  

The real Jesus was an anarchist. He spent his life refusing to claim power over anyone. He said that God is understood in terms of love not power. We add nothing to the majesty of "the human one" by adding a throne or a crown. If he did not want to rule over others in life, why should he want it in death? That is why Jesus is called "lamb of God"; he spoke not as the king of the universe, but from its heart.  

If you want to know why Americans are so frightened and why we are attacking anything that would challenge our dominance over others, read the Bible. Like Cain we have murdered members of our human family. Even when we silence our victims, the ground beneath our feet cries out against us.  

Today's church lifts its arms to praise Christ wearing liturgical garments woven in sweatshops. So called "Christian America" is still a nation built on the work of slaves. We do not see them because they toil invisibly in other countries. Today's church doles out bits of charity from booty stolen from God's powerless people the world over. Anyone who claims to believe in a just God, or even in justice itself, has to know at some level that the prayers for liberation coming from third world countries will be heard and answered. At some level, people of faith have to know that unless America repents of the sin of empire we are a doomed nation.  

Whatever prophetic voices survive in the church must take a message to the mainstream denominations. "We are guilty of our leaders' crimes. Just because we are silent and passive does not mean that we are innocent. If we have any status in the power hierarchy, we are partially responsible for its misdeeds."  

I realize that most of the church consists of wonderful and compassionate people, but that does not matter if we turn over our power to those less charitable. The moderate mainstream church is helpless against fundamentalism because it is built on a nuanced version of the same cracked foundation of a theology of power.  

Whether or not we can change America in time to avoid a political and ecological apocalypse, it is never too late to do the right thing. All of us can begin to plant seeds of a better future for our children's children. For Christians today, that means suffering the consequences of refusing to bow to the dictator Christ of this culture.    

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The Rev. Jim Rigby is pastor of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin, Tex. He can be reached at jrigby0000@aol.com.

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View:
what a bizarre Christ
Posted by: Scooterx99 on Jun 15, 2006 3:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a pastor in the United Church of Christ, I have been frustrated by the popular images of Jesus as subduer. Fortunately our polity allows us to cast him as a liberator who then allows us freedom to try and fix things, mess up, and try again with absolution. No dictatorship. Lots of love, compassion, justice, mercy. See 1 Cor 13.
I agree that the churches in america have their share of fessing up to do about the bizarre Christ they profess. I confess I don't understand their position...except as one of fear mongering...the antithesis of my take on faith. I would encourage you to check out the UCC at ucc.org to discover that not all churches are spitting the same venom.
The UCC is a non hierarchical denomination that trusts the Spirit to lead local churches to make their own decisions within a common covenant with other churches. The national body offers resources, but it is up to local affiliates to opt in, or not. Perhaps the Presbyterian church is not the pulpit you can be standing in anymore. If that is the case, check us out. You speak with a passion many in our denomination embrace.
Aloha,
rev. Scooter

» RE: what a bizarre Christ Posted by: Dale Dressler
» RE: what a bizarre Christ Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: what a bizarre Christ Posted by: aebartle
» RE: what a bizarre Christ Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: what a bizarre Christ Posted by: aonghus36
» Look in your mirror Posted by: YogiBear
» Kudos, UCC Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: what a bizarre Christ sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
Bushie fundamentalists
Posted by: rsaxto on Jun 15, 2006 4:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bushie fundamentalists are the ones who worship a bizarre Christ who is unrecognizable to real Christians. Be careful who you worship and who you believe for you may be doing more harm than good.

» RE: Molech Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Bushie fundamentalists Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: Bushie fundamentalists Posted by: Somedaysoon
Nicely put
Posted by: whyoung on Jun 15, 2006 4:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a bright, and having a naturalistic view of the world, I have to commend the good Reverend on a well written and to the point description of the misguided beliefs so many of his fellow Christians hold as truth. If only more of you were as rationally minded the world and humankind would be much better for it.

» RE: Nicely put Posted by: BJT
» RE: Nicely put Posted by: eastcoker
» On being A BRIGHT Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: celticsweetgrass
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: griggsy
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: mrcentrist
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: Tholos
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: On being A BRIGHT Posted by: davewuxi
griggs1947
Posted by: griggsy on Jun 15, 2006 4:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yeshua is what ever one wants to paint him!Neither the reveren d's nor nor Fallwell.s portrait is wrong.We have only biased sources about him[See"Misquoting Jesus']. And I find the man a source of logicide and authoriatarianism . How can one seriously maintain that he was an anarchist when he stated give u nto Ceasar... SeeWalter Kaufmann's two books on religion to see how people project themselves on to Yeshua .All exegesis is eisegesis. If you want morality ,refer to Arthur Caplan ,Paul Kurtz or Michael Martin,not Yeshua .

» RE: griggs1947 Posted by: BJT
» RE: griggs1947 Posted by: griggsy
» On evidence and reasoning Posted by: Kanefire
» RE: griggs1947 Posted by: Uncle Tupelo
» RE: griggs1947 Posted by: ceti
» about Caesar Posted by: aumfish
Re: GOD'S BULLIES
Posted by: shangrilalad on Jun 15, 2006 4:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"People within the power hierarchy proclaim that God is the ultimate authority, and then appoint themselves as God's interpreters and enforcers."

Beware of God's self-appointed interpreters and enforcers, they don his mantle to enslave you.

» RE: e: GOD'S BULLIES Posted by: resistance6
» RE: e: GOD'S BULLIES sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: e: GOD'S BULLIES Posted by: tracymacl
And the beat goes on . . .
Posted by: LMNOP on Jun 15, 2006 5:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"To picture God in terms of power is also one of the great bait-and-switch gimmicks of all time. People within the power hierarchy proclaim that God is the ultimate authority, and then appoint themselves as God's interpreters and enforcers. They are God's humble bullies. It has been one of the most successful con games of all time. "

3500 years ago:

Moses:
God gave me these Ten Commandments in private up there out of sight behind the bushes, and told me to tell you that he orders you to obey them or else! How do I know it was Him? The bush just started burning on its own. There's your proof. Do you doubt the word of the Lord?

2000 years ago:

John (in Revelations):
The Lord told me in a dream to tell you that if you don't get with His program in time and do as He has told us to tell you to do, he'll come for everybody who did and you will get left behind to be tortured. Do you doubt the word of the Lord?

Today:

Fallwell:
God told me that he is angry with "abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians . . . the ACLU . . . all of them who have tried to secularize America." Therefore it is just to persecute and wage holy war against them as well as anyone else whom I tell you that God said that he doesn't approve. Do you doubt the word of the Lord?

Robertson: God has told be to tell you that, "[t]he feminist agenda . . . encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians". Therefore he intends for us men to dominate them and for you gals to be feminine and submit. Hey, it's not my idea, it's God's. Do you doubt the word of the Lord?

Bush: God has anointed me to deliver his imperial will for America to the people of America and the earth, and he has instructed me to invade Iraq. Since I'm the decider, that's what we're doing. Are you with me and God or with the lib'ruls and terr'ists? Do not question my au-thor-i-tay!

» Um... Posted by: BJT
» RE: Another lesson for R6. Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Um... Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Um... Posted by: benpaul
» RE: Um... Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Um... Posted by: LPB
» RE: Um... Posted by: blingnet88
» RE: Um... Thanks for the sanity! Posted by: billfaster
» Sanity??? Posted by: Steven Wanzell
» RE: And the beat goes on . . . Posted by: ingeniousidea
» RE: And the beat goes on . . . Posted by: george233
» RE: And the beat goes on . . . Posted by: Somedaysoon
The punitive god of empire is a false god
Posted by: wawa on Jun 15, 2006 5:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
During Pentecost week, 2005, the ex-Roman Catholic Father Fox posted a new 95 theses to the same church door in Wittenburg where Martin Luther had nailed the original 95 to 500 years before.


"A NEW REFORMATION" -by Matther Fox
Is for those who intuit God as Mother-Father God of Divine Wisdom and understand that the earth herself is to be tended and her health is just as much a moral imperative upon us all as our human relationships.

The Western Punitive Father god in NOT God; but a god made over in the minds of men who seek control, power and domination.

Nature is God’s primary temple and WAR is the greatest abomination.


Read more from the org. known as WeAreWideAwake in:

Chapter 2: The Revolution has started now...

» RE: The punitive god? NOT!! Posted by: dcr386az
» RE: The punitive god? NOT!! Posted by: SeverelyJaded
» RE: The punitive god? NOT!!/ Posted by: dcr386az
» RE: The punitive god? NOT!! Posted by: billfaster
» ALL GODS ARE FALSE! Posted by: Steven Wanzell
» RE: ALL GODS ARE FALSE! Posted by: aonghus36
» More empty claims. Posted by: Steven Wanzell
From the lips of a Presbyterian yet
Posted by: Urstrly on Jun 15, 2006 5:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So maybe William Sloan Coffin does have an heir in the Presbyterian Church. It is refreshing to hear a mainline Protestant denounce the politics of God the Terminator. Matthew Fox has called for a new Reformation in the Roman Catholic Church, but Protestants could use one as well. We progressives must not give up on the transformational power of good religion.

» From a secularist Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: From a secularist Posted by: Urstrly
Children, children…
Posted by: Arvy on Jun 15, 2006 5:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To a child their parents are gods. We never grow up,we (or more accurately - most of you) still seem to need the idea of a big, benevolent daddy who lives 'up there' and is watching us all in case we break the rules.

Time to grow up, frankly, there is no divine, omnipotent, bearded bloke up there. Take responsibility for yourselves. What if you had been born 5 thousand years before Christ? Were all those people damned because there was no Hebrew god to believe in?

No.

Would I become a drug crazed, murderous thug if there were no Christians to show me the way?

No.

The native americans who were slaughtered by the Christians were 1000 times more Christian than those pious idiots you guys watch on tv and send your wages to so they can build another holiday home.

When Salladdin re-took Jerusalem from the Christians he ordered his men NOT to touch their women, their churches, their livestock. His reason: "We are not Christians", was a reference to the barbarism displayed by the westerners who butchered anything that moved when they, previously, took the city.

I think Christ was a real person but he's been hijacked. He spoke about levels of consciousness which we never explore because we're too busy building up an image of ourselves rather than facing truth.

But if the bearded bloke does exist then those of you who proclaim to be perfect christians, those of you who can't wait for 'the rapture', are all screwed: "Those who put themselves first shall be last…"

» RE: Children, children… Posted by: weiwuwei
» RE: Children, children… Posted by: ebliso
» An alternative explanation Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: An alternative explanation Posted by: billfaster
» RE: Children, children… Posted by: dcr386az
» RE: Children, children… Posted by: Lindie
» RE: Children, children… Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Children, children… Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Children, children… Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Children, children… Posted by: dcr386az
» RE: Children, children… Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Children, children… Posted by: dcr386az
» RE: Children, children… Posted by: aussidawg
» Check Mate. Posted by: Steven Wanzell
Authority and power addiction
Posted by: BPCBob on Jun 15, 2006 6:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article points to the obvious, there is a strong authoritarian impulse inherent in institutional Christianity. It is no accident that Christianity became the state religion of Rome after they outlawed the Gnostic texts and practices of early Christians and vested all power in Jesus, the Church and the Bishops.

Beyond Belief, The Gospel of Thomas, by Elaine Pagels, describes this early history of Christianity beautifully. The Gospel of Thomas preached that the goal of the practice of Cristianity was to become the spiritual twin of Jesus. The implication is that you can be as Jesus is in your own experience. This level of individual empowerment was not a good foundation for the development of a powerful church which needed to centralize authority in it's self, so they branded direct individual experience of spirit as invalid and substituted belief in Jesus, church & bishop.

Part of the power grab is to say God is Good, we have an exclusive relationship to God, you are inherently Bad, you need to submit to being controlled by us-God, to become Good. Human goodness is not the property of any institution, saint, or person, it is owned by the individual who lives it in relationship with others.

The power grabbing authoritarian part of Christianity is encated by leaders with strong needs to exercise authority over others. This makes them a natural partner for the part of the business lobby that also has a strong authoritarian streak. It is this authoritarian power grab encated through our democracy that we must oppose.

The Republican "Free" market, big business types who have aligned with authoritarian, fundamentalist, Christians (not all Christians) are not really interested in free as a human value. The only "free" that itnerests them is "free for me", which really means free from interference caused by the needs of anyone else. At the heart of our corporate psyche there is an authoritarian impulse, it's mine, I rule absolutely in my domain.

The disturbance we see in the alignment of both groups is an addiction to power over others. This is not a sound foundation for a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

» RE: Authority and power addiction Posted by: LeDiablePlaisant
» RE: Authority and power addiction Posted by: Steven Wanzell
Hurray for Rev. Rigby!
Posted by: timhooker on Jun 15, 2006 6:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every Sunday morning, I read scripture to patients in a local mental health unit. Without comment or interpretation, I read the 23rd and 38th Psalms, I Corinthians 13, and the Sermon on the Mount. Trust me; several who think they are Christians are living lightyears away from the Sermon on the Mount. But, then, if you deify Jesus Christ loud enough and long enough, you don't have to pay any attention to his teachings. It reminds me of the part where he says that many in that day shall say, "Lord, Lord . . ."

» RE: Hurray for Rev. Rigby! Posted by: rhinojos
» "Captive" Audience? Posted by: Steven Wanzell
MORALITY IS NOT THE SAME AS OBEDIENCE TO AUTHORITY
Posted by: LMNOP on Jun 15, 2006 6:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Today's church lifts its arms to praise Christ wearing liturgical garments woven in sweatshops. So called "Christian America" is still a nation built on the work of slaves. We do not see them because they toil invisibly in other countries. Today's church doles out bits of charity from booty stolen from God's powerless people the world over."

It's remarkable how many Christians speak and act as if Christianity implies morality and that there is no morality outside of Christianity. Wrong and wrong again.

First, the church does not teach morality for this is done by example with or without verbal supplements. For the church, it's pretty much "do as I say, not as I do" as the quote cited above well attests. If you don't walk the walk, you won't teach with just the talk. Would Christ have had any followers if he had been flagrantly hypocritical like the church?

Second, mature adult morality comes from a voice within which cannot be ignored except at the risk of the pain of guilt and inner turmoil. Such people do not behave morally because they are afraid that somebody is watching who will punish them for wrong action (hell for sinners) but will reward them for the opposite (heaven). This carrot and stick from above kind of morality is not morality at all, it is merely obedience and ethical behaviorr, although it is granted that this is better than misbehavior. It is crowd control.

Typically, liberals are driven by compassion and a well developed sense of justice. These come from within and are functions of the mature and secure superego. When such people fail themselves, they feel private guilt and disappointment with themselves

Conservative, in general and much moreso than lefties, are unimpeded by any inner voice. They have no inner reason to give or do more than what is demanded of them, and they little need to be inclusive or to make sacrifices for others.

They tend to be driven by self-centered, reptilian urges (comfort), and their behavior is limited only by the consequences of being caught: prison, disgrace or damnation. When they are shown to have failed to meet the standards expected of them, whether to the public or to their deity, they tend to feel shame, not guilt.

» On that "Mysterious Name"... Posted by: aussidawg
» Brilliant, as usual! Posted by: Steven Wanzell
» RE: Brilliant, as usual! Posted by: LMNOP
GOD'S BULLIES
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jun 15, 2006 6:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People wanting to control and bully others is no mystery to me. Those who volunteer to be mistreated in the name of some god are a puzzle to me. Growing numbers of women and children in the USA are nothing more than property. This is done in the name of some god and always "according the bible". The followers have always been a mystery to me. They don't question anything or anybody. I wonder why? This is not about God. Thanks, ANNA

» RE: GOD'S BULLIES Posted by: LeDiablePlaisant
» "God"? Posted by: Steven Wanzell
» RE: GOD'S BULLIES Posted by: aussidawg
» Historical "Dumbing-Down" Posted by: Steven Wanzell
» RE: Historical "Dumbing-Down" Posted by: aussidawg
good article
Posted by: LeDiablePlaisant on Jun 15, 2006 7:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought this article was a nice surprise. It should be called "Western War Porn" however, in my not-so-humble opinion, as the Greek word "kurios" can connote yes, many such things, but at it's colloquial (read: common people) heart, it is an expression of God's VOYEURISM, his unwillingness to take part in affairs basically apart from his domain. As humans we claim his province for him, and tell each other that we wage wars for just reasons and that God is on our side. But in any serious theological sense, God is on all sides. Hence, from the Greek, "mercureal," which can mean shape-shifting, but also means endlessly curious, and therefore, ultimately, an unbiased affirmation.

I think your article is at it's strongest here:

To picture God in terms of power is also one of the great bait-and-switch gimmicks of all time. People within the power hierarchy proclaim that God is the ultimate authority, and then appoint themselves as God's interpreters and enforcers. They are God's humble bullies. It has been one of the most successful con games of all time.

Where you point out that those in positions of power are aware of this "bait-and-switch" aspect of the Godhead, and try and mimmick it no-end to their own-ends. So to speak.

The view that Jesus was an anarchist may be ignoring a bit of the complexity of John the Baptist and Mary Magdalene, &c. But point taken.

All in all this could be developed more because its themes are hearty. A welcome change from the daily droll.

» RE: good article Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: good article Posted by: ZPaul
Ominous signs and portents
Posted by: ceti on Jun 15, 2006 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We can even venture to say that the contemporary American Christian super churches, are in fact anti-christian in their theology of power and domination as exemplified by Pat Robertson's support for dictators and fellow evangelicals Charles Taylor and Rios Montt. With the infusion of Southern slave-master theology and the settler mentality, you have the twin evils of America's birth, slavery and genocide, affirmed by the new "Christian" warmongers who revel in their roles as the chief priests of the latter day iteration of the Roman Empire.

Gives a long-overdue
Posted by: Mutternich on Jun 15, 2006 7:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
new meaning to "bully pulpit." Down with the pulpit bullies.

THIS ARTICLE IS PURE RUBBISH BY A WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING
Posted by: resistance6 on Jun 15, 2006 7:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's two gods -- the Almighty Creator God who is acknowledged in the Bill of Rights, the one who gives the unalianable rights, which our government is supposed to PROTECT. The God who made us is perfectly just, holy, righteous, almighty, and the judge of this world.

There's another "god" -- Satan. He is the one who came to lie, kill and destroy. He is the one who the international gangsters, the Illuminati, worship. He is the one who is behind the New World Order.

I am a Christian. I don't understand some wolf in sheep's clothing like the author of this piece of garbage on AlterNet this morning -- I don't understand such a person speaking against our Holy and righteous God and those who follow Him.

Catholicism is not Christianity. Catholicism came about when the spread of Christianity could not be stopped by persecution, when the more the Christians were persecuted the more Christianity spread. The Catholic church is an invention of Satan to control Christianity. The Greek and Roman gods were just given new names and the pagan religions of Greece and Rome were proclaimed to be "Christianity."

The wolf in sheep's clothing who wrote this silly article may not like the idea that he is powerless before the Almighty Creator God of the Universe, but he's not the one to make the rules. If he wants to fight against God, he's as much of a fool as Satan was when he declared war on God.

Jesus came the first time to suffer and die for man, that we might have a means of being justified for our wickedness, our evil sins, when we repent and turn to God. When he cames again at the end of the Tribulation, the Antichrist and all his followers who will take his mark and kiss his feet will be destroyed.

Anybody who tries to stand against God is a fool. In fact, Scripture says, The FOOL has said in his heart, there is no God.

» There ya go again. Posted by: Mutternich
» THE SINS OF THE DEITY Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: THE SINS OF THE DEITY Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Xtian propaganda Posted by: BlueTigress
» Elite Aren't We Posted by: Conservativation
» Religion is your MASTER!!! Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: eligion is your MASTER!!! Posted by: resistance6
» RE: eligion is your MASTER!!! Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: eligion is your MASTER!!! Posted by: resistance6
who reads Bible ?
Posted by: Willhartig on Jun 15, 2006 8:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been to all types of churches and learned to a tee no one reads or has read the whole bible....... american church goers like to do works for local church, look to its pastor to teach them , but talk to the people and you find they dont know whats in Bible . And if you say the Bible says this or that you will get run out and call hatefull for not doing as pastor says..... me and wife are part of growing group of unchurched Christians who love Christ and his Truth but not man made RULES ,,, COME SOON LORD JESUS

» RE: who reads Bible ? Posted by: ebliso
» RE: who reads Bible ? Posted by: skater314159
» RE: who reads Bible ? Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: who reads Bible ? Posted by: Veryclassylady
» RE: who reads Bible ? Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: who reads Bible ? Posted by: Veryclassylady
» RE: who reads Bible ? Posted by: Doubtom
Examine the cosmology ....
Posted by: antirightwing on Jun 15, 2006 8:13 AM   
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I found Reverend Rigby commentary very insightful.

How things are semantically framed benefit those controlling the conversation not only to hijack politics and history but even theology itself is something we must all keep in mind.

Reverend Rigby wrote: "Should we be surprised that a hierarchical cosmology would produce hierarchical churches and nations? Should we be surprised that religious nations that picture Christ as a loving dictator have produced conquistadors, inquisitors and crusaders?"

Reverend Rigby , you hit it on the rhetorical nail with "... a hierarchical cosmology would produce hierarchical churches and nations?"

Examine the cosmology of a culture, people, nation and it will reveal the strong undercurrents that are virtually unconscious by its participants.

I say to the "Christian Right" (and what a misnomer it is), those who consider their path superior are condescending and further from spiritual truth.

Visit my blog: People For progress

» RE: xamine the cosmology .... Posted by: Conservativation
Metaphor Vs History,
Posted by: specialcowboy on Jun 15, 2006 8:17 AM   
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The difficulty here and in general with christianity arises when people can't tell the difference between metaphor and history. When you take and try to apply literally the myths of a people who are removed from you by 6,000 years of development to your life you're going to get in some trouble. It seems to me that most fundementalist (whatever that means) christians are more concerned with what they believe to be an instant literal apocolypse than what Jesus actually said (E.G. The kingdom will not come by expectation, it will come like a thief in the night.)
That being said I think that Jesus was an incredibly important political and spiritual philosopher, I don't think that he was literally the son of god (unless we all are) but his teachings have value, I just wish that the so called christians would follow them once in a while instead of picketing funerals.

"REVERAND RIGBY" ON JESUS THE ENEVOLENT DICATOR"
Posted by: resistance6 on Jun 15, 2006 8:30 AM   
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"Should we be surprised that religious nations that picture Christ as a loving dictator have produced conquistadors, inquisitors and crusaders?"

Mr. "Reverand" -- I can't help but notice how you hog the pompous titles of the clergy while at the same time you try tries to smash the foundations of Christianity.

Mr. Wolf in Sheep's Clothing, your statement above is pure bigotry and lies.

Who pictures Jesus as a "loving dictator?" Maybe you do, because you seem to hate the idea of being in submission to God at all. You think you're smarter than God? You think people should be able to steal, lie, murder, dishonor their parents, live in greed and covetousness and envy? You think the world would be a better place if we did not have these rules given to us by God who you say Christianity pictures as a "loving dictator?"

Those who are NOT Christians may picture God as a dictator. Those who believe in God see Him as our King, our God, our Saviour, our Source, our Comforter, our help in time of need, our friend who sticks closer than a brother, our advocate, our defender, our Rock.

You would prefer maybe that the Ten Commandments would be Ten Suggestions?

Christians have no quarrel with God's rules. We are in agreement with his rules and laws. We love his laws and his rules because we can see that they are good as God is good.

The Bible says woe unto those who call good evil and evil good.

Sounds like you are in a lot of trouble, Mr. "Reverand" Rigby.

» Reality Alert! Posted by: Steven Wanzell
» RE: eality Alert! Posted by: resistance6
» RE: eality Alert! Posted by: jigsaw
» RE: eality Alert! Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: eality Alert! Posted by: resistance6
» RE: eality Alert! Posted by: jigsaw
» RE: eality Alert! Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: eality Alert! Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Reality Alert! Posted by: Steven Wanzell
chrispy
Posted by: cpatton on Jun 15, 2006 8:35 AM   
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As the descendant of Presbyterians, including missionaries, I was encouraged to read this article. There is much in it that bears the core of truth from the perspective of this world and how the name, person and teachings of Jesus have been hijacked by political operatives. We live in an oppressive and increasingly globalized system of economic imbalance and spiritual confusion. The creation is even under attack by the greedy materialistic economic juggernauts we know as multi-, trans- and international corporations. The UN and globalism will not bring solutions to these problems either. The power of the people is incapable of performance without corruption.

One technical point: the Hebrew is plain that the God of Israel and His Son are indeed kings, albeit not the "lairds" of our western cultural heritage. True spiritual hierachy is not corrupt. That is the one thing about the genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the lives of true believers: He/She/It cannot be corrupted from the pure essence of love, which is the inherent nature of the Father. The world is lost in the spirituality that manifests itself as an indivisible mixture of good and evil, as presented in Eden's Tree of Knowledge. This is the spirit of antichrist that blinds so many who believe they are Christian. It also blinds many who believe they are spiritual.

Yeshua/Jesus did not advocate war by His disciples for any kingdom of this age, yet He did not deny his hierachal position as King. That twist came later with the Romans and particularly with Emperor Constatine's co-option of the majority of the bishops assembled at Nicea in AD 325. The Roman Empire's acquisition of the official church as an ally in the cultural manipulation of the people became classically expressed during the Middle Ages through what came to be called the catholic and orthodox branches of Christianity. The twist in Yeshua/Jesus' teachings was written into church canon by Augustine and others. Those who believe that the Kingdom of God is the church on earth are consistent to fight for it through the nation-state system politically and militarily, but they are wrong.

The problem is that this is not what Jesus taught. He told Pilate that His Kingdom was not of this world or age or His servants would fight! (John 18:36-37) Yeshua is King of Israel and King of the kings of the nations, but He has not returned to claim His crowns. He came the first time to deal with individual sins according to one's faith. He comes again soon to deal with the societal sins by overturning the god of this age, Satan, and destroying the babylonish political states that rule with oppression and war with deceit in fulfillment of the Destroyer's desires.

Woe to those who teach economic oprression of the poor and war! Judgment will probably come sooner than later. For more articles along this line of reasoning go to: http://www.apocalypse2008-2015.com/articles_index.html and particluarly to "The God of Israel Loves Arabs and All Peoples" at: http://www.apocalypse2008-2015.com/God_Loves_Arabs.html.

There are Christians & Christ Followers
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jun 15, 2006 8:49 AM   
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Jesus warned his followers that people would come into the church to use it for their personal and selfish desires and purposes. Much of the evil done in the name of God is due to these people and those who blindly follow them.

There are others who follow the teachings not as a list of do's and don'ts, but as illustrations of the need to live peacefully, mercifully and gracefully among others. Please do not lump us all together.

From Matthew 5
3 "God blesses those who realize their need for him, for the Kingdom of Heaven is given to them.
4 God blesses those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5 God blesses those who are gentle and lowly,for the whole earth will belong to them.
6 God blesses those who are hungry and thirsty for justice, for they will receive it in full.
7 God blesses those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
8 God blesses those whose hearts are pure, for they will see God.
9 God blesses those who work for peace, for they will be called the children of God.
10 God blesses those who are persecuted because they live for God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
11 "God blesses you when you are mocked and persecuted and lied about because you are my followers.
12 Be happy about it! Be very glad! For a great reward awaits you in heaven. And remember, the ancient prophets were persecuted, too."

43 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, `Love your neighbor'[n] and hate your enemy.
44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!
45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too.
46 If you love only those who love you, what good is that?
Even corrupt tax collectors do that much.
47 If you are kind only to your friends,[p] how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that.
48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

From Matthew 7
1 "Stop judging others, and you will not be judged.
2 For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged..

From Matthew 23
23"How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest part of your income, but you ignore the important things of the law--justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things."

From Galatians 5
22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.


New Living Translation
Peace to all

» Thanks for the new translation Posted by: Sojourner
THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS
Posted by: Arvy on Jun 15, 2006 8:52 AM   
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I urge anyone interested in these issues to read "The Screwtape Letters", by CS Lewis.

This is a story about a trainee demon given the task of guiding a certain human being down the 'evil' path.
Very funny, humane book. Makes you look at your own motives for following a religion.

I'm aware that most Christians would see it as blasphemy to suggest they can learn something outside of the bible but hey… you can't please everyone.

» RE: THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS Posted by: Steven Wanzell
» World it surprise you to learn ... Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: World it surprise you to learn ... Posted by: Steven Wanzell
Jesus Christ was an idiot.
Posted by: JDHorn on Jun 15, 2006 9:28 AM   
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My title would only be true if Jesus was not a fictional, fantasy false prophet, but rather a real historical pious fraud.
The Samaritans were right and everyone else wrong, and the conversation between Jesus and the woman at the well in John 4, could not have happened. The Samaritans had no, and still do not have Messianic expectations. They were accutely aware that the Israelites had been commanded to "utterly destroy these people, leaving nohing alive that breathes, namely the Hittites...." (Deut. 20:16-18). No one should have cared that Uriah the Hittite got killed, but the false prophet, Nathan did.(II Sam. 12). Not only Jesus, but 11 out of 12 prophets in the Old Testament, not to mention two millennia of idiot theologians, even noticed this error. Only Malachi observed, "an abomination was committed in Israel, and in Jerusalem, Judah married the daughter of a strange god." King David married Bathsheba, a Hittite women, and their son, Shlomo the Schmuck built his abomination, the Temple of Solomon. Bathsheba was not an Israelitess as is commonly believed.
Recently, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's ace detective Sherlock Holmes also failed to comment on this discrepency in the denouement of the short story, "The Crooked Man."
God promised a prophet like Moses, and that prophet will be a Levite like Moses, because, "the Covenant is with Levi."
There is no covenant of David, nor is there a covenant of Abraham. Circumcision though time honoured, is a stupid, cruel mutilation, and a spurious cultural trait. When Elijah spoke of the Covenant, he was speaking of the law Moses received on Horeb (not Sinai!). Some of this law still survives in a badly corrupted form in Deuteronomy 12:1- 26:15.
Elijah has yet to tread the planks of the world stage to bring an end to, among many things, the abominable practice, of the bris.

» RE: Jesus Christ was an idiot. Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Jesus Christ was an idiot. Posted by: famouspipeliner
» All A Series of R-writes. Posted by: Steven Wanzell
» RE: Moses was a Levite Posted by: cpatton
Did you read "Immorality of Christianity"
Posted by: freerain on Jun 15, 2006 9:53 AM   
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When this book was written, begining in 1997 and published in 2000, the language of morality was strictly owned by the Christians--now a new awareness is coming forth and Christianity is being seen for what it is--Immoral--the seat of power,(Rome) greed (self-indulgence), corruption (taking on sin-against your true nature), inhumanity (torture and death to those not thinking like a christian) and protractor of war (you are either with me or against me. do my will or die).
Read the Introduction here:
Immorality of Christianity-Introduction

Come to Me Sweet Jesus
Posted by: Patrick Murfin on Jun 15, 2006 12:14 PM   
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“Come to me, Sweet Jesus!”

The TV preacher shouts,

thumping his chest,

waving his arms

with the urgency and passion

of a man whose toes

have tapped on brimstone.



Which Jesus, I wonder casually,

My thumb hovering over the remote

eager to find the ballgame.



The Jesus on my childhood wall

Wore long blonde hair

tumbling, shining to his shoulders

like a Breck ad,

gentle blue eyes,

aquiline nose,

a Nordic Jesus

come to life in Jeffrey Hunter

waiting the piercing stab

of John Wayne’s Centurion lance.



I have since seen a Jesus

for every purpose and every reason—

African Jesus dashikied in splendor,

beardless Blackfoot Jesus in eagle feathers,

Jesus with breasts and womb,

American Guy Jesus,

neat trimmed beard and curling hair

like the Little League coach down the block.



What Jesus does this sweating man summon

with his electronic worship music band

and cathedral in the parking lot,

pews filled with rapture

in sports shirts and sundresses?



And who, when I shut my eyes,

Do I beckon when I murmur,

Come to me sweet Jesus?

A swarthy man,

stocky build, barrel chested,

muscular forearms bulging

from the swing of the hammer

matted with a thick curling pelt,

nose large, lips fleshy,

burnoose over raven hair,

wrapped in dingy coarse cloth,

callused bare feet

black with the dust of the road.



I see a man.



Come to me, sweet Jesus,

Let me wash your feet.

--Patrick Murfin

This poem appeared in my book, WE BUILD TEMPLES IN THE HEART published by Skinner House Books.

HERETIC, REBEL, A THING TO FLOUT
linked text

» RE: Come to Me Sweet Jesus Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Come to Me Sweet Jesus Posted by: owleyes
Blind Faith
Posted by: mstenger on Jun 15, 2006 12:44 PM   
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I'm a recovered christian. When I was a christian, I did the same thing that current christians do--I'd look down my nose at those poor, unsaved souls, and think about how superior I was to them that I KNEW the truth and was saved, and they better listen to what I was saying because I KNEW the truth because The Holy Bible said that the only way to God was through Jesus Christ. Period. The Holy Bible also told me that those poor, unsaved souls would persecute me and try to say that I was wrong, but I KNEW that this was only Satan working through them against me.

WHEW!! Am I glad that I, somehow, finally saw the light (pun intended). To do this, I had to pull my nose out of the bible and use my mind and open myself to the world around me before I could see it. It's interesting how people place all their faith in an ancient book--full of violence and contradictions--that has been chopped up and mistranslated over and over again. No wonder christians seem like they're nuts!

I believe there is someone/something working in the universe that I can't completely comprehend--yet. I think I'm slowly evolving because I've realized that institutionalized religion is quite obviously not the way. It has caused most of the discrimination, conflict and war in the world. I believe my spiritual journey is meant to be personal, but shared with others through conscientious, caring and loving interactions, which in turn makes the world a better place.

The world WOULD be a better place if people would stop using their religion to hurt others.

» RE: Blind Faith Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Blind Faith Posted by: deaudonnee
» RE: Blind Faith Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Blind Faith Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Blind Faith Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Blind Faith Posted by: resistance6
» Finally! Posted by: Steven Wanzell
» RE: Blind Faith Posted by: aonghus36
Once and For All
Posted by: WyrdSister on Jun 15, 2006 1:03 PM   
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I just wish that Christians would get a clue that they are not THE religion and that there are others out there.

I know I grew up thinking that EVERYONE was Christian and once I realized how many other religions there were out there I quit being a Christian due to the hypocracy and went out into the world and learned.

I knew what I believed and I knew that it did not fit within the confines of Christian dogma.

After a year of research I found Wicca. I wanted to shout it from the rooftops. It felt as if I had come home.

The tolerance that other religions show to those of other faiths is amazing and it just kills me that in the year 2006 we still have those nut-wing Christians who are convinced that they need to Witness EVERYONE.

I am very comfortable in my faith now. I have since dropped the Wicca as it has its own dogma of sorts. I am simply Pagan and I take care to walk softly upon this Earth because She is life. I am tolerant of others spiritual beliefs because the Devine is personal and what works for some does not work for others.

I wish that could be respected by more Christians.

» RE: Once and For All Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Once and For All Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Once and For All Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Once and For All Posted by: aonghus36
The New and Old Testament don't quite fit.
Posted by: mythbuster on Jun 15, 2006 1:17 PM   
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As a practicing Catholic, I can tell you that when a Christian quotes the Old Testament, watch out. It is exceptionally difficult to put Jesus in the context of the Old Testament. Can you imagine Moses's dining with tax collectors and prostitutes? Thus, when our Christian Rightists uncork a quote from Joel or Ezekiel, be prepared for the God of War. The God of the Old Testament is the type of vengeful war god favored by a primitive people. For those of you who doubt their primitiveness, please note this wonderful passage from the Leviticus 18:23 (the passage right after the prohibition on homosexual sex much quoted by the fundamentalists): "A man must never defile himself by having sexual intercourse with an animal, and a woman must never present herself to a male animal to have intercourse with it; this is a terrible perversion." Good thing we got that straight. When these ancient words are used as a modern roadmap, is it any surprise that violence, hatred, and retrograde thinking naturally result?

Everyone wants to lay claim to "The Real Jesus" TM
Posted by: owleyes on Jun 15, 2006 1:32 PM   
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When I read the Bible, Jesus sometimes seems like a nice guy whose ideas mainly fall into line with the ones I accept about truth and power and human dignity. But other times he's just a complete asshole. He's secretive and cliquish, and has a hot temper which flares for no discernable reason. Why can we not just forget about Jesus? Why can we not just go back to worshipping the Goddess or something that makes some sort of sense without us having to do logical and moral yoga every time we try to explain our position?

The final barrier between man and God.....
Posted by: wavesrgreat on Jun 15, 2006 1:37 PM   
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...is religion.

I can't remember who said it, but it sure is true. Live the Golden Rule and everything else falls into place; simple really.

Douglas Adams?
Posted by: zoomorph on Jun 15, 2006 2:29 PM   
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Wasn't it Douglas Adams who (in "So long and thanks for all the fish") used the crucifixion as a time reference point, and described jesus as "...some guy got nailed to a piece of wood for suggesting that we should all be nice to each other."?

I think I got that right, by all means correct me if I erred; but the point is: I guess the type of thing this article speaks to was happenin' even back then (IF it happened...) Power, Power, Power - little tolerance, lack of decency, etc.

Dang me!
Posted by: gonzoskismet on Jun 15, 2006 4:22 PM   
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God doesn't mean much when somebody is intent on killing you.
Neither does the Flag, who the f**k put you there, whether they were Democrat or Republican or much else. All you can think about is what the character in ' Oh, Brother, Where Art Thou?' says....Damn, we're in a tight spot!
But, my Government has abandoned the people that fought for it. As soon as you are wounded in Iraq, whether it's a flesh wound or you lose both your legs, they swipe your card through the machine and you go back to Basic Pay. And this is before you've even left the country! I've had returning vets from Iraq tell me this. Support the troops, America !
I'm sorry, but ya'll need to wake up. God doesn't have anything to do with this infernal mess. Your President and Congress caused this. If you want to find TERRORISTS, look to Washington, D.C. Don't blame this on God and the Devil.
They get enough bad press for our mistakes!

The Presbyterians have failed
Posted by: greentime on Jun 15, 2006 4:49 PM   
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to recognize gays - why? Where is the love in that?? The latest important research shows there are at least 450 animal species known so far that have true homosexual characteristics. Everything from Elephants to Giraffes. It is natural. "Gayness" creates the social society that allows people to live without so much aggressive Darwinian violence. Think for a minute what life would be like if every male was out there making war to win a mate. Half of us would never survive! Homosexuality is a balance. By the way, most pedophiles are straight men so don't bother responding with that false connection. Let's study heterosexual men, it seems to be where most of the violence resides!

The Presbyterians have a long and good history of resistance of top-down rule. They wanted their leaders to be chosen by the people and not forced on them by the monarchy. They have not stayed true to their history and they are in no position to claim themselves as being better than other hate-based religions until they clean up their own ministries.

The first religion to have a feminine/masculine balance will have the greatest influence in the future. Earth-based, loving, peaceful, and humble. After all, Jesus was a peaceful feminist!

» RE: The Presbyterians have failed Posted by: resistance6
» RE: The Presbyterians have failed Posted by: resistance6
» check wikipedia Posted by: apost8
» RE: check wikipedia Posted by: ZPaul
» RE: check wikipedia Posted by: apost8
» A question for debate Posted by: apost8
» RE: A question for debate Posted by: ZPaul
» Lalalalalalalalal Dogma! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The Presbyterians have failed Posted by: resistance6
No one deserves Hell more than...
Posted by: Wells on Jun 15, 2006 5:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..those who judge others as Hellbound.

Consider the Commandment, "Thou shalt not take the name of the lord thy God in vain". Some take this mortal sin (taking God's name in vain) to mean saying 'God damn it".

Well, God damn! God damn it all! God damn it, God. God damn you. God! Damn it!!

This is no offense to God. It is more likely God empathizes with the soul under duress crying in frustration and blindly blaming God.

The meaning of this Commandment more likely means something else: to 'take God's name' as in 'to believe in God', but 'in vain' disobey other moral imperitives, Godly Commanded or not. Neanderthalic Presidents and televangelists who in vain lie, steal and (cause) murder, unwittingly or not, are violating a holy Commandment; or so it would seem.

Fundamentalists are not allowed to use their brains. Wouldn't God sooner find mortally offensive an abuse of religious authority?

About the "real" Jesus
Posted by: deejayvee on Jun 15, 2006 7:00 PM   
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You said that the real Jesus didn't want to be a king. Ignoring the doubt over whether there was a real Jesus, according to Luke 19:27 Jesus said:

"But these mine enemies, that did not want me to reign over them, bring them here, and slay them before me."

That seems fairly unambiguous to me.

» RE: About the "real" Jesus Posted by: skater314159
This article is just wrong.
Posted by: christianleft2006 on Jun 15, 2006 7:48 PM   
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This article is just wrong.

First, the image of Christ as dictator is not a Christian concept. A dictator exerts his will over others, even where that exertion of his will exceeds his own power – see NSA wiretaps. God on the other hand has an unlimited capacity for power – the Christian God can do anything and can take any form. He could control every minute detail in our lives if he chose to. However, he yielded his authority to us and gave us free will to do as we please. Christian teaching is that the results are frequently displeasing to God and to Jesus. Despite the frustrating result, the Christian God has permitted us to run riot nonetheless. What is dictatorial about that? A dictatorial God has never been a Christian understanding of God.

That is not to say that the Christian understanding of God, or Jesus, is that He is without authority. To say that Jesus “spent his life refusing to claim power over anyone” is to miss the point that He will be the final arbiter of our lives. He is the Judge, the final authority, and He made it clear to all that he would judge all in the end, and that he would separate the sheep from the goats.

Whether one agrees or disagrees, these are Christian teachings. They should not be mischaracterized in the furtherance of making a broader point. After all, that is what the right does best. Let’s leave that to them, and approach the Christian left – and we are out there – on more honest terms.

» RE: This article is just wrong. Posted by: resistance6
Dumbfounded
Posted by: Melvin on Jun 15, 2006 8:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't beleive the posts to this article.
Folks; THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES.
Nothin,ziltch,sweet fa.
Go find another reason to kill control & maime & most of all ..not to think for yourselves.

» RE: Dumbfounded Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Dumbfounded Posted by: Steven Wanzell
» RE: Dumbfounded Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Dumbfounded Posted by: Steven Wanzell
The Christian Empire
Posted by: Plisko on Jun 16, 2006 11:15 AM   
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Nobody called him Jesus when he was alive, or Christ. Jesus Christ is a theological construct. I believe the man's name was "Yeshua".

After he was gone his teachings exploded in hundreds of different directions. Other religions even began incorporating some of the message into their own and creating new hybrids.

This was also a period of persecutions both by Jewish and Roman authorities against the apostles and their later followers. Most of the early generation of leaders and thinkers were killed, effectively halting the first hand knowledge of the teachings.

There were many writings that appeared in those years; some good some downright odd. The churches that formed all followed different customs and interpretations depending on where they were. There is even evidence that Paul's Gentile churches in the Greek and Roman world (which were, of course, molded by greek religious customs and forms) may have even become a more dominant influence than the churches founded by the followers of Peter and James, the brother of Jesus, in Jerusalem.

In the year 325, long after everyone was dead, it was the Emporer of Rome, Constantine, who gave us the "Christianity" we have today. He forced the remaing church "fathers" to gather into a council under his supervision and come up with a dogma that would represent the "true church".

The results of Constantine's efforts became the Roman state religion. The "spiritual empire of Rome." Everything that was not compatible with this new dogma was deemed heretical and it, and it's followers, were destroyed. It was a "culture war" of the worst kind and the side with the Roman army won.

Eventually a "canon" of writings was decided upon and all other writings were deemed untrustworthy or downright blastphemous. Many were burned. Those that were accepted were translations and transcriptions of earlier writings that were then translated and transcribed further. When more than one interpretation of a passage was possible during translation, the one closest to the established dogma was chosen. They were so good at destroying all "heretical" writings and wiping out all heretical brands of "christianity", that their very existence was only verified in 1945 in Nag Hammadi Egypt when someone discovered early Gnostic Christian scrolls that were stuffed into a sealed clay pot and buried in an effort to preserve their existence.

Most Christians today know very little about the true origins of their religion and it's writings.

It should come as no surprise that a church founded as a state religion under the Emporer of Rome would lean a little heavily toward easy access (just believe and you are saved), a strong hierarchy of leadership, lavish real estate, a culture of obediance, and a benevolent "father figure" heading it all up. It should also come as no surprise that it seems to allow people to hold a "religious life" within the church without actually LIVING the teachings that the church is carrying.

The Christian religion, at it's core, is a truly inspiring spiritual message. It is a sad fact however, that the organization set up to carry this message was a tailor made construct which allowed ambitious, politically motivated, leaders to have influence over the very souls of the masses. Most intelligent "rank and file" Christians understand that the teachings in the new testament are an important standard of living to live by. Unfortunately, it is the politically motivated side of the church, the "church of the flesh" that always seems to dominate the Christian landscape.

It is a sad irony indeed that the teachings of "the prince of peace" are brought to us within the orgnizational and cultural model of a brutal empire. We should pray every day that this empire side of Christianity will finally fall away when humanity is ready for it.

To beleive or not...that is the Question
Posted by: SamFox on Jun 16, 2006 11:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Catholic church doesn't follow the New Testament. No praying to Mary & Saints, no prayer beads! Communion elements do NOT become His body and blood.

GW 'Shrub' a Christian? He is new world order, leaves the borders open to hurt US soverngty & bring US to a EU type union, then one world gov. More AC than JC.

Jesus claims Divinity: Jn. 26:64 "... you shall see the Son of man (Messianic referance) sittting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven." John 10:33: "I and My Father are one". John said (1:1-3) In the beginning Was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The High Priest said He was a man who makes Himself God. John 10:33.

You can be moral with out Christ and not have eternal life. Moral people are hard to reach. They feel they have no need. But sin is what we are, not what we do. Sin is in us. We inherited sin's nature from Adam & Eve. (Romans)

Christ's Name misused makes it bad to protest abortion? Question media bias? Protest homosexual & other perverson? Call for sexual purity & abstinance? To protect our selves and our nation? It's not from Christ to harm homos or abortion providers. But what is wrong with the 10 Commandments? What harm do they bring? A union of one man & one woman & no outside sex eliminates abortion, STDs, ect.

Jesus is no dictator! But He is Lord. All power in heaven and earth was given Him. Math. 28:18. We submit willingly because He loves us. He won't force His way into a heart. We follow Him because of the futility of life without Him- we needed something...I tried sex, drugs & rock n roll, ...still empty. I received Christ becauseI felt His love & knew I needed Him. His Spirit moved on me. Serious about searching for truth? Ask Him! He won't turn you away. But from then on you must go His way. Most resistance to Him comes from wanting our own way & invented justification. John 3:17-21. Jesus said men won't come to the Light because their deeds are evil, they do not want accountability. He wants to cleanse us as sin is bad for us. He seeks our best benifit. He endured a beating & humiliation, hanging naked on the cross, for ego?

Lord, (Strong's Concordance)= God, Lord, master, Sir. Lord in referance to Christ is OK.

Jesus: "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me." Peter; "There is no other Name given among men whereby we must be saved." They are stating truth or are NUTS!

If He is a myth, why all the fuss? His 'religion' would have died with Him. His work was continued by those who KNEW if He were dead. They beat up the soldiers & stole His body? Knowing Jesus' killers would come for them, why go on to die for a lie?

Much done in His Name is not right. So? You alone are responsible to find out if His claims are true. Also to tell others about Him, when you find they are, & follow Him. Most of the bad rap comes because of Christians In Name Only. Like GWB & B. Clinton. God's big question will be to You! "What did YOU do with My Son?"

Serious searcher? Read Lee Strouble & Josh McDowell's books. Lee offers proof that would stand up in court. Josh discusses fulfilled prophacy. Some 30 OT predictions were fulfilled the day of His death. Coincedence? A modern fulfillment of Rev. 13:5-6 is The Divinci Code, one of many to fit that bill.

God='Father/mother', 'He/she/it' = lack of understanding the basic pincipale of 'father'. A father places seed, a woman receives and carries it. As Father, God can only be 'male'. He places 'seed', His Word, in His Church. To call Him female in any sense is innacurate. This is all spiritual. Expounding in human terrms to human minds is difficult.

He IS real. His claims ARE TRUE!

SamFox

Short and sweet
Posted by: Elmowilcox on Jun 16, 2006 2:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I contend that the only difference between the major religions that exist today and "cults" is the amount of time they've had to accumulate a membership.

» Well I forgot one other thing.... Posted by: Elmowilcox
This article really upset the Christians
Posted by: eastcoker on Jun 16, 2006 10:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well I have been fishing about with this article in various denominations and all it received was *scorn*. Oh so dangerous. Reverend Jim invited an *atheist* into his congregration. Heavens. What blasphemy! We musn't do that now.
Yet I don't know what's worse. The nonsense theology on this site or the reactionary conservatism out there in the other communities.
Poor Reverend Jim, getting discplined by the Church.
Do iconoclasts always have to suffer so?
Wasn't Jesus a Jewish iconoclast?
I think so.
Ah, what disgusting hypocrites we are.
Cynicism is the last refuge for idealists. It is spiritual heroin. Ah it sure does feel good going in doesn't it?
Need I quote Marx?

griggsy
Posted by: griggsy on Jun 17, 2006 3:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Science is provisional,that is opened to new evidence . I t proves itself every day whereas religion is only a placebo at best and never can prove itself .Faith in a god i s begging the question ,because as Articulett @ Skeptics Society has shown that one should show a god before having faith in it! One finds so much nonsense thrown at science ! Creationists lie about .I t is their nature ,their psychology.

Christ was no Christian
Posted by: wawa on Jun 17, 2006 5:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christ was a social justice, radical revolutionary, Palestinian Jewish road warrior who stood up to the empire-and occupying force at that time- for the poor, oppressed, widow, orphan, prisoner, outcast and confronted the HYPOCRICY in the religious institution.

Christ upset the status quo and that was why he was crucified: to shut him up!


100 years BEFORE Christ walked the earth a MAN
Rabbi Hillel understood the Hebrew understanding of Hokema/Holy Wisdom/THE FEMININE DIVINITY
was the same as the Greek understaning of The Logos/THE WORD/ which Paul and John understood was The Christ.

So, one with a little imagination can imagine that before Christ walked the earth a MAN
He was already a SHE:
Hokema/Holy Wisdom/The Feminine Divinity


"IMAGINATION is evidence of The Divine."-Wm. Blake

a public service message from the org.
WeAreWideAwake

» RE: Christ was no Christian Posted by: resistance6
More Dribble from another mainline Protestant
Posted by: wdzeller on Jun 17, 2006 5:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find these comments from the Reverend Jim Rigby criticising traditional Christianity to be examples of the typical dribble being put out by these old mainline Protestants. Mr Rigby, like many of his mainline bretheren, speaks of the "traditional" (fundamentalist) Christians as a threat to Christianity. FACT: ALL of the mainline protestant churches are facing a massive loss in membership to the so-called fundamentalist churches to the point where most of these organizations will be extinct within one hundred years. For example, the Episcopal Church will have 80% fewer within 40 years (they've been losing parishioners for 35 years, already). I believe that Mr. Rigby needs to worry less about the fundamentalists and more about why his own Presbyterian Church is hemmoraging members. Many of his comments, to this observer, seem to be based more on petty jealousy rather than any real concern for the state of the Church.

Jgdewey
Posted by: jgdewey on Jun 17, 2006 8:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Reverand, I hope you will find and or but the book,
The Second Coming Of Christ, by Paramahansa Yogananda. In it this great spiritual master, reveals that Christ weeps over the misunderstanding of his teachings. To Yogananda, himself, a highly evolved soul who spent his entire life in prayer and meditation, Christ came. Not on clouds, not with a hedious rapture, not from outside, but from inside, where he dwells in all of us. In short, His Second Coming is an interior raising of conciousness that unites the devout disciple to God. No saint, or high soul has ever talked about Armeggandon, or the rapture, or Christ the militant. Indeed, From Saint Francis, to Saint Therese, they are so enraptured and in love they only want to be within with their beloved. Please understand, that Christ isn't unaware and that there are those who speak for Him. The truth travels against the wind you know and as Mahatama Ghandi stated Think of it the bullies never win, they never win...Blessings to all..J. Dewey

» RE: Jgdewey Posted by: LPB
» RE: Jgdewey Posted by: jgdewey
For equality, let's see the other side....
Posted by: LuisNolan on Jun 17, 2006 2:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article scores some points against the bully sector of the right wing. In the interests of equality, I'd like to see the same author write an article about the bullies of theleft:"How marxism Breeds Bullies," highlighting the careers of Lenin, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, Kim Sung Il, Mengistu of Ethiopia, and other mass-murderer luminaries of the secular left.

» Wrong about the Lottery Posted by: YogiBear
cloud of unknowing
Posted by: insulafortune on Jun 17, 2006 4:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I have respect for religious people to be sure I get confused on why I should join the ranks. So many bitter arguements and or wars over what is the right path or intepretation. Jesus is this, Jesus is that, you're going to hell, you're not, Jesus is friendly, people who don't believe go to hell, Jesus was no pacificst. I'm damned, I'm not. eternity, not eternity. Christianity ruined the world, it didn't. It was a perversion of christianity... it wasn't. Hitler was a christian, he wasn't. Bush talks about being a christian and believing in god, but he's not a christian, he's a satanist. Vaccines, gays, the mark of the beast, catholics. Pagan nature stuff... I get so lost. Interpreting the world through the lens of religion can be a full time job... or lifestyle. And it seems to require a lot of emotional investment.
Sure I've had moments of superstition, I've prayed, even to jesus a couple times. But I have to say that none of these things has helped me as far as I can see. The more I investigate mysticism, religion or even give time to consider conservative christian views... the more confused and frustrated I become. For me at the end of the day, none of it's that helpfull. I can get that righteous hate feeling too, but then
I find myself just wasting time. Now and then I get a feeling of awe of course... but I just can't maintain that 24-7 regardless of what metaphysical / religious tact i'm trying to follow.
Reading through 9-11 conspiracy theories is an easier task.
What a headache - meanwhile I need a job, we seem to be in a huge war over oil and power. I think religion can be a helpfull fulfilling thing for sure - and given it's tremondous power in politics it needs to be discussed... but regardless of positions I find most of the time in order to function I need to deal with things on limited basis without considering the spiritual implications all the time.

» RE: cloud of unknowing Posted by: resistance6
» RE: cloud of unknowing Posted by: insulafortune
» RE: cloud of unknowing Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: cloud of unknowing Posted by: jigsaw
To Beleive or Not...Stroble and McDowell ARE NOT PROPAGANDISTS!!!
Posted by: SamFox on Jun 18, 2006 11:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are apologists. And yes they are scholors! Apologist means one who defends, stands for and advocates a particular position.

Have you read their writings? You say they are propagandists but offer no confirmation. Josh McDowell is considered right up there with CS Lewis. Lee is no slouch either. Their work is documented, not off the cuff junk like 'I think' or 'in my opinion' or made up. In fact, Lee set out to disprove the Gospel after his wife's converson.

The Gnostics were more hreretical than Christian.

I do not follow Jesus because of them. I met the Lord in 1969. I did not even hear of the two men untill the early or mid 90's.

I follow Jesus because HE TOUCHED ME in a way that cannot be explained. In the old days when I was taking lots of LSD I tried to communicate some of my experiances to friends. That proved difficult, there are not enough words. Even if there were they would have still failed to fully express what I had seen and experianced. When I asked Christ into my heart and life something happened that transcended any trip or experiance I had ever had on hallucinigins. For one thing His touch stayed with and in me. It did not fade away over the next few days as was my experiance from being experianced. (Jimi and Eric B know what I'm talking about.)

If you would please give me a few examples of their propaganda I will re-read and see if what you say is true. You may find it difficult as their work is well documented. Can you refute the evidance Lee s. presents? It would stand up in a modern court. How about refuting the prophacies Josh Mc D presents? What evidance is there to disprove, say, the fulfilled predictions, some 30 I beleive it was, that came to pass the day Jesus was put on the cross? Like the one in Psalms "they parted my garments among them and for my vesture they did cast lots." How about Isaiah 52:13-15 thru 53:1-12.

There are MANY others.

The bottom line for me is that I met Jesus. He has proved Himself real in my life more ways than I can express or remember. That is why few of His followers ever recanted their faith and WENT WILLINGLY AND JOYFULLY TO THEIR DEATHS in the arenas and crosses of Rome. It has been recorded many times that many were singing His praise as they were burned alive, eaten by lions or whatever...He was ALIVE IN THEM AS HE IS IN ME! That is why I beleive. If my prayer to receive Christ was only a head thing, like LSD, I would be out looking for my old religon of sex, drugs and rock'n roll. I had plenty of all 3 in my 'old days'.

I'm not a great genius or even very smart. My many mistakes in life show me that. But I am NOT stupid enough to deny what I KNOW HAPPENED IN ME!!! I KNOW THAT I KNOW WHAT I KNOW! The denial of others can never affect me. The stupid excuses and false justifications for not believing in Him can't now ever sway me. His is the highest and best reality there is. As 'religon' goes (I don't like that word) He is the way the truth and the life and I could never have met God the Father apart from Him. I tried.

Get back to me if you do any researh on Lee & Josh. Let me know your refutations, I promise to check them out.

Thanks.

Sam Fox

SEPARATION OF RELIGION FROM POLITICS
Posted by: ozziechic on Jun 18, 2006 7:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus himself is quoted as wanting to give Caesar what is his (political/economic power) and to God (his father) the 'king of the spiritual realm' or the Heavens.
And in particular as the 'King of Time' or Lord of the Cosmos' Jesus Christ must be given his due recognition.
Jesus Christ represents the way we now measure the ages and he was described as the Lamb of God as well as the Fisher of Men for cosmological reasons - the Age of Aries as it became the Age of Pisces.
The fact is Jesus was a Jewish man who oft quoted the Old Testament, was living in Judah in Roman times (pre Palestine) and became a symbol of the Jewish struggle.
Accordingly, he now has a very important part of his life's significance attributed to humanitarianism, and in particular he was trying to use his limited powers to help free his people - the Jewish people who were attempting to retain power over their own dominion from the Roman Empire.
His knowledge was and still is the interpretation and accumulation of at least 1500 years of Jewish sriptures and writings begun with the manuscripts of Moses the First Scribe of Judaism up until Job.
How dare anyone take this poor maligned Jewish man, attempt to deify him in contempt and ignorance of his own religion. A man who suffered a cruel fate at the hands of the Romans who cricified him and then went on to use this lesson of his life for their own political gain to attempt to control the Jews and any other minority religious group.
Other than re-establishing Jewish identiity and autonomy in Jerusalem, Jesus was not interested in relieving the peoples of this wicked, self-interested and selfish world from the following:
A) sins
B) respect for Moses and the Jewish concept of monotheism
C) replacing Judaism with a diluted and contentious new forms of monotheism as written about in the New Testaments and the Koran.

SEPARATION OF RELIGION FROM POLITICS
Posted by: ozziechic on Jun 18, 2006 7:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus himself is quoted as wanting to give Caesar what is his (political/economic power) and to God (his father) the 'king of the spiritual realm' or the Heavens.
And in particular as the 'King of Time' or Lord of the Cosmos' Jesus Christ must be given his due recognition.
Jesus Christ represents the way we now measure the ages and he was described as the Lamb of God as well as the Fisher of Men for cosmological reasons - the Age of Aries as it became the Age of Pisces.
The fact is Jesus was a Jewish man who oft quoted the Old Testament, was living in Judah in Roman times (pre Palestine) and became a symbol of the Jewish struggle.
Accordingly, he now has a very important part of his life's significance attributed to humanitarianism, and in particular he was trying to use his limited powers to help free his people - the Jewish people who were attempting to retain power over their own dominion from the Roman Empire.
His knowledge was and still is the interpretation and accumulation of at least 1500 years of Jewish sriptures and writings begun with the manuscripts of Moses the First Scribe of Judaism up until Job.
How dare anyone take this poor maligned Jewish man, attempt to deify him in contempt and ignorance of his own religion. A man who suffered a cruel fate at the hands of the Romans who cricified him and then went on to use this lesson of his life for their own political gain to attempt to control the Jews and any other minority religious group.
Other than re-establishing Jewish identiity and autonomy in Jerusalem, Jesus was not interested in relieving the peoples of this wicked, self-interested and selfish world from the following:
A) sins
B) respect for Moses and the Jewish concept of monotheism
C) replacing Judaism with a diluted and contentious new forms of monotheism as written about in the New Testaments and the Koran.

Invictus
Posted by: YogiBear on Jun 18, 2006 7:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley

Lillith
Posted by: Lillith on Jun 19, 2006 12:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am afraid to say that R6 is a little too taken in with the children eating children and orgies and such like....he just keeps on mentioning it, as an athiest I can't say these are images that even come into my mind....one wonders, R6 do u perhaps get a little turned on by the whole thing...mmmmmm...ewwww..shudder
U are one scary creature...I suggest medication.

» RE: Lillith Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Lillith Posted by: Lillith
» RE: Lillith Posted by: resistance6
» RE: Lillith Posted by: Lillith
» RE: Lillith Posted by: Lillith
» RE: Lillith Posted by: jigsaw
» RE: Lillith Posted by: aonghus36
Believe is limiting the function of the brain
Posted by: yolanda on Jun 19, 2006 9:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....and that's it folks

I know no one's going to read this far down, but...
Posted by: kenhymes on Jun 20, 2006 11:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just wanted to put in a word for less talking about who's right and who's wrong about Jesus, and more reading of the gospel and praying for the world and the people in it.

I know the gospel is foolishness to anyone who hasn't been touched by the healing power of the Holy Spirit, so I have no bone to pick with non-believers. God does things in Hir time, not ours.

To the Christians who post: go back and read Paul's letters, folks. Gentleness and becoming as one with those you wish to reach are the watchwords. Anger, threats, and petty criticism are guarantees of failure. And self-righteousness is the one sin Jesus seems to have had some difficulty forgiving.

Peace, grace and mercy to all. I am the worst sinner, and yet I know God loves me.

:(
Posted by: Turtlesruletheworld on Jun 20, 2006 4:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who claims to believe in a just God, or even in justice itself, has to know at some level that the prayers for liberation coming from third world countries will be heard and answered. At some level, people of faith have to know that unless America repents of the sin of empire we are a doomed nation.

The essence of the article is nothing new. James Baldwin said all this stuff 29 years ago and we still havent done jack.

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