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9/11: Wild Conspiracies and Rational Concerns

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted June 5, 2006.


Even when you cut through the conspiracy theories about 9/11 and head straight for the facts, the government's version still seems fuzzy.
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According to a recent Zogby poll, less than half of all Americans agree that "the 9/11 attacks were thoroughly investigated and that any speculation about U.S. government involvement is nonsense."

You could almost hear a wail of frustration rising up from the gatekeepers of acceptable discourse.

Just after the Zogby poll was released, William Arkin, the Washington Post's normally circumspect military affairs columnist, had a fit of apoplexy over some e-mail from 9/11 skeptics. "National security is men's work," he wrote -- absurdly bringing gender politics into a debate that's already quite muddled -- and conspiracy theorists are, presumably, not real men, but "predatory and devious, seekers of polarization and not light, abusive of the political system [and] contemptuous of anything that even resembles the 'truth.'"

One wonders what he really thinks.

Outside of the world of punditry, the 9/11 conspiracies should come as no surprise, especially when you consider how ripe the events of 9/11 are for "alternative" analysis.

That begins with the basic premise that underlies the most common conspiracy theories. I, for one, have no problem accepting the notion that a small group of true believers -- people like Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz and the rest of the neocon "cabal" -- used the attacks of 9/11 to seize and consolidate power. And I'm comfortable accepting that they view liberal democracy as a threat, their political opponents as a national weakness, and American militarism as the best hope for humanity.

They've proved, to my mind, that they're happiest when governing in secrecy -- a prerequisite for a conspiracy. Think about the administration's obsession with classifying everything under the sun, or Dick Cheney going all the way to the Supreme Court to avoid divulging who, exactly, crafted America's energy policy.

The administration's hardliners also represent a nexus between the more authoritarian end of our political spectrum and the anti-egalitarian business Right; the administration and its backers, allies and former partners are making an unprecedented fortune in all corners of the "war on terror," and that goes to motive.

It's a group of ideologues that knows its prescriptions aren't popular. The Project for a New American Century, where a "White House in waiting" of hard-right operatives weathered the Clinton years, urged a massive "rebuilding" of America's military capabilities (PDF), but warned that it wouldn't be easy unless there was a major attack on the American homeland. "The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event -- like a new Pearl Harbor," they wrote.

And while Arkin might consider the preceding paragraph evidence of the most "predatory and devious" kind of fringe thinking, I’d say it’s simply naïve to dismiss the many occasions in history when exaggerated or false external threats were used to rally a nation to a war footing (and abridge civil rights at home) -- from the explosion aboard the battleship Maine in Havana Harbor to the Reichstag fire to the Gulf of Tonkin.

So you have suspects and motive, and they accord more or less with some distinctly mainstream progressive analyses. That's not, however, evidence of anything. So, to repeat, while there's a pretty clear record of Bush Republicans taking advantage of 9/11 - think Rudy Giuliani's 2004 GOP convention speech that mentioned September 11 four score times - there's nothing concrete to suggest that they were behind it.

Indeed the place to start considering the events behind 9/11 is to look at the federal government's official version of what happened and see if it's accurate. If there are holes or serious flaws -- and there are -- then we should try to get an accurate version of what happened and proceed from there.

Let's start with a simple fundamental problem with the 9/11 report:

We may not know who all the hijackers really were.

Three days after the attack, the FBI released the names of those infamous 19 hijackers (photos here).

But the following was reported, not on some fringe website, but by the BBC on Sept. 23:

Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well.

Digg!

Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.

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Simple in Concept Brilliant in Execution
Posted by: Peter Boyd on Jun 5, 2006 12:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whatever the real truth of 9/11 is, in the cold light of history it will be judged not so much as an act of terrorism but as a military strike that was simple in concept and brilliant in execution with an impact that outweighed the material and human loss by magnitudes of thousands to one. A single act that bought the worlds only superpower to its knees and in terms of bangs for bucks probably had a far greater impact than the atomic bombs dropped on Japan when that country was already defeated.
In the scheme of man's inhumanity to man the death toll of 9/11 is insignificant and will be forgotten long before the mass murders of the citizens of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the hands of the USA.

» Controlled Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: David Blayne did it. Posted by: kooz
Just a sample of some questions
Posted by: HeroesAll on Jun 5, 2006 12:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My favourite thought-provoker here is David Ray Griffin's book, "A New Pearl Harbour". He doesn't attempt to prove anything, he simply looks at some of the suggested 'evidence' that 9/11 was not as officially stated, and discusses what each implies in terms of degree of complicity. The foreword alone is well worth reading, because there he states clearly and precisely what he's doing and what he's not doing, which is more than most theorists can manage.

I find the physical aspects most persuasive. Having a little (very little) knowledge of engineering and the laws of physics, I couldn't credit that those buildings would fall straight down. Demolition experts work for years at learning how to demolish buildings that way, because it's damn hard to do. The slightest inequity in the forces and your building goes all over the damn shop, tipping one way or another and shaking it all about.

The fires, too. It's really hard to make the fires hot enough to deform the building sufficiently, and even if that had happened the damn things would have toppled over, not dropped straight into their footprint. Again, there's the engineering: if the fire story is true, then WT7 would have been the first ever case in about a century of a steel-framed building collapsing from fire. Which would mean a huge panic as all other steel-framed buildings would now be much less safe then previously thought. Griffin also mentions seismic data, which looks suspicious. At the very least all this stuff means the administration covered up what really happened, as Joshua pointed out. And it's not like this admin doesn't have a track record of lying egregiously.

The missile hitting the Pentagon I'm not convinced of, but this, like all the other points, needs looking into. If there's suggestions that the official story isn't squeaky clean, then a real investigation should have been done. The fact that the Bush admin tried so hard to block, and then choke, the investigation that finally happened, just feeds these theories. The fact that the terms of reference of the investigation were so constrained meant that the panel had almost no choice but to follow the official line from beginning to end. This is why so many people believe theories: they're building their suspicions on past behaviour.

» A couple more salient points Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Just a sample of some questions Posted by: Larry Brewer
» RE: Just a sample of some questions sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
How much have you studied the subject?
Posted by: hankgeorge on Jun 5, 2006 3:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I encountered Griffin's first book by chance in London. I read it as much out of boredom as anything else. That lead me to the second book...and so on. I have a hard time believing that you cannot find credible evidence supporting the "conspiracy theories" in the finely researched details. If the twin towers did not come down from controlled explosions, nothing in history ever has. As unbullied experts have shown many times now, what was said to have happened simply could not have happened. I think you have either some homework or some soulsearching to do. No one wants to believe anything but the official story. But I, for one, cannot, in the end, simply LIE myself to sleep.

A Conspiracy of Dunces
Posted by: DavidR95 on Jun 5, 2006 3:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with much of what Joshua Holland wrote in this morning's column. But there is evidence that The White House knew full well the attacks were coming, with fairly detailed information other than the date and specific targets. This is well-documented in an article, "ashington's Darkest Secret," which appeaed in April 2005 and can be found at the following link:

www.dissidentvoice.org/Apr05/Charles0405.htm

In brief, the article quotes current and former national intelligence and security officers as saying that George Tenet's mad flight to Bush's Crawford ranch in August, 2001, was to inform him that a mole buried inside al Qaeda had passed word of the attacks sometime in July or early August. If there was a conspiracy of any kind, and I'm not sure there was, it might be that Bush, Cheney and the neocons decided to let it happen rather than mobilise the FBI, CIA, FAA and local police to prevent it.

In any event, as history has shown, it was a consiracy of dunces to borrow a phrase from John Kennedy O'Toole.

» Verifiable True Fact Posted by: ceti
» I would have to say.... Posted by: HeidiLockwood
The problem with conspiracies
Posted by: oldsmobile on Jun 5, 2006 3:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have kept an open mind about the events of 911 but I can't help but be troubled by some of the conspiracy theories out there.

It seems they follow a similar pattern, usually a question that has not been answered adequetly or not at all by the official story is taken and speculated and guessed to death based on little more than assumptions and the total excaggeration of crumbs of information.

I agree there are many strange going ons around the whole affair, but stating theories as fact gets us nowhere. See how for instance the "did a plane or something else hit the pentagon" discussion ran wild untill someone pointed out that there were indeed pictures of airplane debris on the lawn, not good ones, but they are in the public domain.

What I am saying is, it is okay to develop theories, even wild ones, but don't be so damn sure of everything, it ruins your credibility, since many of the things can be totally disproven by the government simply by publsihing a single photograph or video.

» yeah deny the facts... Posted by: ShoShenQ
» RE: yeah deny the facts... Posted by: ShoShenQ
» RE: yeah deny the facts... Posted by: oldsmobile
» RE: The problem with conspiracies Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: the Kennedy assasination Posted by: oldsmobile
I never thought
Posted by: paulaH on Jun 5, 2006 4:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of myself as a conspiracy theorist until the Bush Administration came along. I'm still not in most things. I tend to be as far as 9-11, though.

When I saw the first plane hit, my first thought was, "it's started." My second thought was, "Bush and his friends are behind it." Why did I think this? I'm not sure. When I saw Bush's face when they told him, it looked to me like he was trying very hard not to smirk in pleasure. It's also interesting that everyone seemed to be missing from New York that day which is unusual.

Add to that we had a president that half the country didn't accept as president. Never mind his approval ratings, many people simply did not accept him as the president. What would be the only way for a president with his lack of support from the American people be able to garner that support? War, of course. But war on foreign soil wouldn't do it. It would have to be DOMESTIC. They didn't want to actually bring an entire war here, though, so what's the next best thing? A terrorist attack. Contained; relatively small loss of life and property; would achieve the desired result. Which it did.

This is far too coincidental. I do not believe in coincidence.

As for the explosions, I have a friend that is an explosives expert and according to him, those buildings are designed not to fall like that. He says the chances of those buildings coming down like that from the planes are practically nil.

So, sorry, although there's no physical evidence--which without the investigation the Bush Admin doesn't want--I am fully convinced

» RE: I never thought Posted by: wli
» RE: I never thought (neither did I) Posted by: SimmaDownNah!
» RE: I never thought Posted by: nitsua1023
» Bush smirk Posted by: fifthworld
» RE: Bush smirk Posted by: mirimac
Government of secrets
Posted by: feduphoosier on Jun 5, 2006 4:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consider that we still don't know what happened to either JFK or Robert Kennedy, in spite of an astounding array of 'irregularities' in the official versions of their deaths. I think we can safely assume that 9/11 will land in that growing heap of 'never to be explained' events. Make up your own mind – but don’t expect the government to give you truth. Keeping secrets is the one thing they do very well.

» RE: Government of secrets Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Government of secrets Posted by: feller
» RE: Government of secrets sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
Richard McGinn
Posted by: mcginn on Jun 5, 2006 4:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ok, Josh, it works like this. The government reports (what it wants) and you decide (what's rational). And NOBODY INVESTIGATES! Check your gut. How does it feel to lose your freedom and your dignity at the same time? They said it could never happen here. It just happened to you. Who is next?

How extraordinary are the claims, truly?
Posted by: wli on Jun 5, 2006 4:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
False flag attacks are ancient; the name itself dates to state sponsorship of piracy from half a millenium ago. The false flags of the state being attacked would be flown by the state-sponsored pirates (e.g. Francis Drake, Henry Morgan) to disguise their ships as those of the nationality being attacked to allow closer approaches for the attacks.

Far from extraordinary, such methods are routine, and routinely employed by governments against their own populations. As recently as the Iraq conflict the US painted its fighter jets to remove or change their markings so that their provocations would have a higher probability of succeeding. The infamous "strategy of tension" in the 1970's Italy in featured secret agents of the Italian government, many of whom, granted, were acting on behalf of the CIA, carrying out acts of terrorism to "discredit the left." Need I say "Judi Bari?" The FBI is carbombing US citizens Iraq-style on US soil, getting caught doing it, and still getting away with it.

Furthermore, military attacks against a country's own population are routine in general. The numerous death squad dictatorships the CIA has installed did so mercilessly, to the point where numerous of their attacks have strong cases for being genocide (ethnic Mayans in Guatemala, ethnic Chinese in Indonesia, numerous others). What were Hitler and Stalin so reviled for? Or Pol Pot? Or even (gasp!) Saddam Hussein?

It's far beyond hubris to claim that it can't happen here. Military attacks on the citizenry, assassination and framejob campaigns against dissidents, death squads, false flag terrorist attacks, and the like are the bread and butter of statecraft. Claims that the US government carried out 9/11 are as mundane as claims that Nike made a particular shoe or Shaquille O'Neal played in a specific game of basketball. One of the few differences is that the US government will deny it regardless of whether it did it or not.

That said, I shouldn't let the 9/11 truth people off the hook, either. What do they think they'll accomplish by proving beyond a doubt that the US government did something quite ordinary that it was quite probable it did in the first place? It's like proving beyond all doubt that earthworms live in the dirt, or that water is wet, except (of course) that it takes more effort to collect the evidence. The premises for the War on Terror and the Iraq War are blatant enough bullcrap even without adding that to the mix. The purported perpetrator is a CIA asset, so at worst not relying on the false flag interpretation of 9/11 embarasses the US into staging the capture of one of its own secret agents (who is probably even dead). Does anyone seriously think the perpetrators of 9/11 within the US government can or will be brought to justice? No way; not even the boldest 9/11 truth "activists" is calling for the arrest of specific officials. All that aside, despite all the independent investigation, the specifics of "whodunit" beyond vagueness like "the government" is still quite lacking, and not likely to ever be resolved.

It'll burn you up, and it well should, but they have already gotten away with it.

I believe Bush Co. was behind it all, but
Posted by: terradea on Jun 5, 2006 4:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So what? We already know the GOP illegally manipulated the 2004 election, and that Bush was put into office even though Kerry won (see facts in Kennedy's research, Rolling Stone). Nothing is going to change, no one in power will be held accountable. When and if we finally get the facts showing Bush and his regime were the planners of 9-11, the same thing will happen; nothing. So...why all the fuss?

» Mom? Posted by: sln70
science and motivation not speculation or lies
Posted by: rsaxto on Jun 5, 2006 4:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should base our opinion on 9/11 not on speculation or lies but on science and motivation. Who had the greatest financial motivation for 9/ll? Who had the greatest political motivation for 9/11? Who did the most coverup on 9/11? Who holds the most secrets for 9/11? Who stage-managed the 9/11 investigation after fighting for no investigation at all? Who has resisted bringing true science into the investigation? Who resisted bringing bomb and demolition experts into the investigation? The answer is blowing in the winds of corruption and dominion. The answer is the Bushies to all of the above questions. The preponderance of the evidence to all the above questions points to the Bushies. If we had an impeachment trial for the Bushies proof and preponderance would squarely point to the Bushies. IMPEACH!

GaryWenkleSmith
Posted by: GaryWenkleSmith on Jun 5, 2006 4:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is much to debate about 9/11. Perhaps the easiest way to enlightment is answering how Building 7 collapsed at free fall speed on its own footprint. There is no mention of it in the 9/11 Commission Report, and apparently, according to the Zogby Poll, most Americans who believe that the 9/11 Commission Report was accurate were unaware of the collapse of Building 7.

» Good Point Gary Posted by: Neilium
» RE: GaryWenkleSmith Posted by: famouspipeliner
The Israelies knew it was happening
Posted by: kooz on Jun 5, 2006 5:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 9/11 strike wasn't a surprise nor was it brilliant execution. There is too much evidence that the plot was exposed, conspiritors were revealed and our intelligence (so-called) community did nothing. When the daily brief to Bush that said Bin Laden intends to hijack planes and fly them into buldings went comveniently ignored you have to believe that they knew it was coming and wanted it to happen. Which leads to the Israelis. In New Jersey a women reported a group of Arab looking men jumping up and down celebrating the attack as they watched from the infomous white van. When police investigated it turned out that they were illegal Israelis and they were eventually sent back to Israel as most of the Israeli criminalsl are when they get caught breaking our laws. Israelis knew 9/11 was coming and wanted it so we would get drawn into war against the Arabs with them.
Instead, we should make peace with the Arabs and blow the hell out of Israel and eventually there will be peace in the Middle East if we do.

for all who are wondering
Posted by: calibandita on Jun 5, 2006 5:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look up a movie called "Loose Change" on google or another search engine. It was created by a few professors at UC Berkley. It shows clearly, with the use of science & physics, how almost all of the claims of what went on 911 were highly unlikely if not flat out impossible. This movie opened my eyes like no other.

» RE: for all who are wondering Posted by: chipmunk stew
» RE: for all who are wondering Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: for all who are wondering Posted by: chipmunk stew
» Great stuff. Posted by: YogiBear
What total crap...
Posted by: John Rice on Jun 5, 2006 5:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...it is for Alternetters and other posters to state it is impossible for meaningful change to occur, or to claim that 9-11 and other mysteries can not or will not be solved. "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" (Albert Einstein). The sheep become self-fulfilling prophets by doing nothing--or worse yet, by proclaiming or feigning their own impotence.

Meaningful change of governance is not only possible, but more likely now than ever before, and it will succeed only if people believe it can. Ghandi said it best: "Be the change in the world you want to see." If you want change to occur--then help to make it happen by your own actions.

Just don't count on Dems or Reps to do it for you, because they are both unalterably corrupted. We need a new political paradigm and the best alternative I see (awaiting everyones' input) is the Neither Party. (www.neitherparty.org )

We look forward to your help.
Regards,,,John
( john_rice@neitherparty.org )

» Off the subject Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Off the subject Posted by: nehark
» RE: Off the subject Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Off the subject Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Re: Insanity / Franklin Posted by: TheySayImUnamerican
» RE: e: Insanity / Franklin Posted by: Lincoln fan
If there was no conspiracy before there has surely
Posted by: owlbear1 on Jun 5, 2006 5:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
been one After.

A possible solution
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Jun 5, 2006 5:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are many expert demolition companies throughout the world and the plans for these buildings are available. These experts can accurately calculate exactly how many explosive charges, where they should be placed, and the strength of each charge required to bring these buildings straight down.

It shouldn't be too difficult for them to calculate the effect of different strength charges placed at the crash points. We would then know the likelihood of these buildings falling as they did. If the government wants to dispel the conspiracy rumors they could hire one company to make this study and then hire several more to confirm or deny its findings.

» RE: A possible solution Posted by: Gravy
» The point being . . . Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: The point being . . . Posted by: brunowe
» The point STILL being . . . Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: The point STILL being . . . Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: The point STILL being . . . Posted by: jobie1kno
» RE: The point STILL being . . . Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: A possible solution Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: A possible solution Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: A possible solution Posted by: chipmunk stew
» RE: A possible solution Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: A possible solution Posted by: zipper696
» RE: A possible solution Posted by: felix
» RE: A possible solution Posted by: chipmunk stew
» hey chipmunk Posted by: kellysgarden
» WRONG AGAIN Posted by: chipmunk stew
» RE: hey chipmunk Posted by: chipmunk stew
» The truth shall set you free Posted by: YogiBear
» BETTER STILL.. Posted by: Neilium
» A man convinced against his will Posted by: itzamirakul
Hijacker identities
Posted by: Gravy on Jun 5, 2006 5:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua, there'a s good examination of the "living hijackers" myth at www.911myths.com. The stories you referred to were in September and October, 2001, when there was still some confusion regardiing the hijackers' identities, partly because of identity theft, and partly because people with the same names as the hijackers were alive. Those questions of identity were resolved in November, 2001. Shortly thereafter a Saudi government investigation also concluded that 15 of the hijackers were Saudi nationals.

Christie
Posted by: Christie on Jun 5, 2006 5:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought you had made a breakthrough in your thinking until the end of the article when you call the demolition theory fanciful. Read Dr. Robert Bowman, Lt. Col. USAF ret., “our air defenses stood down” and Steven Jones, professor of physics, who after long study concluded the building collapses were due to “controlled demolition”. Then come back and talk about 9/11 “conspiracy theories” (Articles by each of these men are on 9/11truth.org.)

I certainly do not agree with all the theories. The fact President Bush read “My Pet Goat” for seven minutes after being informed about the second airplane is “so what, look how long before he responded to Katrina, and we know he did not conspire to cause that.” And, in my opinion, the Pentagon information is just too fuzzy to prove anything contrary to the official report.

I am sorry that apparently you were not more fully informed before you wrote this article. Or perhaps it is just too scary?

Well, here is the next installment. No need for another 9/11. This is just so much easier. After all, who would believe...

http://www.opednews.com
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has written a brilliant new article about the biggest political story in the history of the United States: An American politician illegitimately took the office of president by outright theft and fraud. Although such high crimes and misdemeanors have been rumored in previous elections, none in the history of the republic have been so thoroughly documented. George W. Bush is not the legitimate president of the United States.

Why is this information not being reported in the mainstream media? Just press delete? Ahhh, there, time to start the barbecue grill. So relaxing. Not even any need to decide for whom to vote. All decided for us.

» STUPID WHITE MEN Posted by: Neilium
What about WTC7?
Posted by: MonkeyBoy on Jun 5, 2006 5:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is it that the collapse of WTC Building 7 has all but been ignored by the MSM when there is any talk of 9/11 "conspiracy"? This building collapsed on it's own footprint 5 hours after the attacks, with only minor exterior damage, and 2 small fires. If you do just a little research, you'll also see that 2 buildings standing between WTC 1,2 and & 7 did not collapse. Watch the "Loose Change" video on Google, and read "Crossing the Rubicon". They'll open your eyes...

» RE: What about WTC7? Posted by: Gravy
» RE: What about WTC7? Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: What about WTC7? Posted by: MarkyX
» RE: What about WTC7? Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: What about WTC7? Posted by: Skipper
» WTC7 = "smoking gun" Posted by: YinRising
» Alternet IS mainstream media Posted by: LeonDion
What about my pet goat?
Posted by: p4th on Jun 5, 2006 5:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't get me wrong, I don't put anything past Bush and Cheney but if they had REALLY known that 9-11 was going to happen don't you think they would have scripted a better photo-op for the president than reading "My Pet Goat" for 10 minutes after he was told what was happening.

» why ? Posted by: Tris
» RE: Exactly Posted by: kooz
» RE: why ? Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: What about my pet goat? - good point Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: What about my pet goat? Posted by: fuzypupy
Joshua--What will it take....
Posted by: John Rice on Jun 5, 2006 5:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
before you could utter the words--our government betrayed us--(ie. the Maine; Tonkin Gulf etc.) again?

Instead you proclaim: "But that kind of evidence is almost certainly not forthcoming; there will be no further serious investigation into the events of 9/11. Ironically, that's largely because of the 9/11 "truth movement" itself -- by embracing fanciful notions that the government blew up the World Trade Center with thermite charges, or that the Pentagon was hit by a missile -- makes it hard for the rest of us to express rational skepticism of the official account."

The above statement from you is in the same category of statements as blaming the victim for getting raped.

Tell us--what other differences from the stated official explanations would you allow before your rationality alarm goes off?
Would you have to stick your finger in the wound, so to speak?
What would it take before your refusal to believe all of these inconsistencies was overcome by what amounts to overwhelming evidence you and the official explanations were wrong?

WTC Building 7 was "pulled" (meaning intentionally imploded with explosives)--the owner said so on tape. It takes days and weeks of elaborate preparations and materials to "pull" a building in a professional manner. WTC#7 HAD TO HAVE BEEN PLANNED IN ADVANCE, and if that is true, then everything else connected to it is at least suspect and should be subject to our best scrutiny as well. And if saying this self-labels me as a conspiracy theorist, oh well--today's conspiracy theorist is also today's realist. (And today's realist is tomorrow's activist.)

Which brings me to this: “That’s not the way the world really works anymore. . . . We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.” (A senior White House advisor (Summer 2002) to Ron Suskind)

Joshua--what will it take for you to finish with this all-too-judicious studying, and call for a democratic rebellion?
Regards,,,John
( john_rice@neitherparty.org )

Of course they're guilty.
Posted by: LMNOP on Jun 5, 2006 6:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What's all the fuss about? You know all that you need to know alraedy.

So what whether Bush et al. were actually behind 9-11? What matters is that we know for an iron clad fact (all argument s of "you don't know what blah blah blah" aside - yes, I do know!) that they would have if they had thought of it and that they thought that they could pull it off.

Furthermore, who that hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid would doubt for a nanosecond that these sociopaths wouldn't do it in the future? That's all that matters. You want people that consider such tactics abhorrent and immoral, not just merely too hard for them.

I never need to know for certain just how complicit these villains were. I know how depraved they are, and that says everything that I or you need to know. Is there anybody who doubts that knowing how it turned out that the Bush-babies would have lifted a finger to prevent it?

Do you think that if they had the opportunity to push it along that they would not because it was immoral? Or that if Wolfowitz or some other neocom golem came to Cheney and Rumsfield with blueprints for a 9-11 all worked out in detail that they would bristle at the thought or report such people to the authorities? [If you know what a spit take is, please envision one now]

Conspiracy theory? You mean conspiracy hypothesis, don't you? Who would make the suggestion that conservatives would meet behind closed doors and make secret plans? That's what a conspiracy is. Does that kind of thing ever happen, or do you suppose that the party of transparency has all of its meetings in public forums?

What kind of imbecile would doubt that there are 500 conspiracies being considered or implemented TODAY? Don't be ashamed or afraid of a conspiracy hypothesis. Be ashamed if you don't consider it a possibility. Embarrassing you for even suggesting it is a powerful proactive technique.

Some serious questions about conspiracy...
Posted by: Tris on Jun 5, 2006 6:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I watched 'Loose Change' and other movies about the conspiracy theories.... True, it's very interesting but still, there is a few thing bothering me.

First, it's not really possible for 'normal' people to check all the videos they show in the movie. So if it's possible to make 4 planes vanish from the sky and blow up the towers, it's also quite easy to temper with some video to show what ever you want, including funny pods under planes and demolition explosions...... In one word, if you can't trust the US government, can you trust this people ?

The second thing, far more important is a question they don't answer at all. How many people (and who ???) do you need for such a conspiracy ?
And I'm not talking about people looking the other way or covering evidences. I mean, people planting tons of explosives in civil buildings, people readying and flying missiles or remotly guided planes, people pushing buttons knowing full well what they are doing, and so on.... If there were 3 or 4 marksmen to kill JFK, we are talking here about 10s of people.
Where are they ? Why none of them surfaced yet ?
Until someone anwers this questions, it's really hard for me to belive in the full-power conpiracy......
So it looks like the same story all over again : poisonig-the-well - the conspiracy in the conspiracy. Make the conspiracy looking so big and unbelievable so anybody questioning the official truth looks like one more conpiracy-nut....
All in all, I believe the US government looked the other way (or maybe they even helped a little bit with money, visa, whatever....) while the terrorists were planning the attacks...... but I'm afraid we will never know......

» Ask Any Shooter Posted by: Neilium
» RE: Ask Any Shooter II Posted by: thorlives
9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB
Posted by: resistance6 on Jun 5, 2006 6:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Three towers, not two fell on September 11.

They all fell the same, SPLAT. Straight down into their footprints.

Tower 7 WAS NOT HIT BY ANYTHING AT ALL.

The second tower to be hit by a plane fell first. The plane that hit that tower hit it at a glance and ALL THE FUEL EXPLODED OUTSIDE THE TOWER. Yet somehow, the impact was enough to cause this tower to fall first, and to fall at the speed of gravity SPLAT.

The first tower to be hit fell last. True, the plane's fuel went inside the tower and there was definitely a fire going. But all the firemen rushed in to save the people and felt quite safe in doing so because fires don't make big, steel-reinforced towers go SPLAT.

Richard Grove, whistleblower on the Meria Heller Show: click here where we learn that Giuliana, Petacki and Spitzer were complicit in the take-down of the towers, and the trillions of bold bullion that was stolen the morning of the attack, how Marhsal, McClellan and others were in on it too.

Alex Jones documentary: 9/11- Road to Tyranny
click here


Listen to Alex Jones here on GCN radio. click heret

Watch Loose Change 2 video? click here

Have any of you googled Bush/Illuminati to see the photos of GWB and Laura flashing the Illuminati hand signs all during the inauguration -- with demonic smirks on their faces?

Bush is doing all this as a Christian (he's anything but) in order to bring down the United States and cause Christians to take the fall for it.

» RE: 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB Posted by: resistance6
» RE: 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB Posted by: brunowe
» RE: 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB Posted by: brunowe
» RE: 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB Posted by: russianblue1
» See the discussion here Posted by: brunowe
Joshua’s “belief” in a fascist administration’s innocence Part I
Posted by: IanA on Jun 5, 2006 6:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua Holland comes off having written a pretty weak article this time. Usually his reasoning is clearer. The last paragraph conclusion “by embracing fanciful notions that the government blew up the World Trade Center with thermite charges, or that the Pentagon was hit by a missile -- makes it hard for the rest of us to express rational skepticism of the official account.” (aside from the spelling – scepticism) is pure bunkum. A vacuum of fact is naturally filled with a full spectrum of speculation and “belief”. The questions remain though, did individuals at the White House know more or less? How can Mr. Holland say which notion is “fanciful”. We are talking about his belief. What we all need is facts.

The assertion that the Bush administration and some agencies of the government were in some way involved with the events leading to 9/11 and in the managing, hiding, and destruction of evidence after the fact is supported by evidence. Responsibility for coordination and control can only be established by proper criminal investigation.

Prior events:
Numerous prior warnings given,
Blocking of investigations and communications,
Connections between unusual “put” orders, and ex-senior CIA persons,
Bush family relations to security of WTC coincide with measures involving building
down time to specific areas of the building
Connection between Bush and Bin-Ladin
Prior changes in visa issueing in Saudi Arabia despite warned security risks in
Washington
Commercial flight travel warning given to State and Federal Govt. personnel
Stand down of military protocols
Purchase and special insurance of the WTC complex to cover such a specific event.

Post event:
Removal, destruction, hiding, or lying about forensic evidence from all sites.
Special transportation and removal of vital persons out of USA, while all other flights
grounded
Contradictions in denials of previous knowledge, latterly shown as lies.
Third party confirmation of building “demolition”.
Narrow-referenced, white-washed, and incomplete investigation in support government
contention.
Physical evidence that does not tally with events as described by report.
A concerted effort to prevent further transparent and independent investigation
(cover-up).


The above is only a partial list.

Michael Meacher's allegations
Posted by: tmwright on Jun 5, 2006 6:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a member of Parliment and Tony Blair's Interior Minister made the following allegation in a September 6, 2003 article in The Guardian

"First, it is clear the US authorities did little or nothing to pre-empt the events of 9/11. It is known that at least 11 countries provided advance warning to the US of the 9/11 attacks. Two senior Mossad experts were sent to Washington in August 2001 to alert the CIA and FBI to a cell of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation (Daily Telegraph, September 16 2001). The list they provided included the names of four of the 9/11 hijackers, none of whom was arrested."

This guy is not a wild eyed conspiracy theorist but rather a government minister who resigned in protest over the events leading up to the invasion of Iraq. As far as I can tell, his claims received little media attention in the USA.

You've taken a bath on this issue?
Posted by: EricVerlo on Jun 5, 2006 6:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Holland says he's taken a long bath in the world of 9/11 and decries it as rank conspiracy theory, unsupported by any evidence.

It looks like you took that bath in a bird bath. Your usually insightful analysis offered nothing for us to look at this morning. You do us all a disservice by purporting to debunk 9/11 while giving us merely a broadstroke dismissal.

I've given your piece a luxurious read and found the language of a gatekeeper.

Brilliant my eye!
Posted by: wilburnwilliams on Jun 5, 2006 6:08 AM   
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Muddleheaded rubbish. Shouldn't Iraqis, dying by the tens of thousands in a vicious conflict that might yet degenerate into all-out civil war, be numbered among the toll of 9/11? Did the citizens of Afghanistan give bin Laden permission to use their country as the base for attacks that have had horrific consequences for them? We are all diminished by the 9/11 attacks, all made losers--in New York, in Baghdad, in Kabul, and wherever else there are people who believe that murder, whether of the mass or single variety, is no solution to human problems.

Conspiracy Theory???
Posted by: maturin42 on Jun 5, 2006 6:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only conspiracy theory I have heard has Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton's signatures on it. The official commission report is a tissue of falslified timelines, mendacious and self-serving testimony, far-fetched defenses of the military and NORAD, and outright fabrication that seeks to tie the events of 9/11 into a coherent story that is consistent with what the thugs who run our government want us to believe. Things that don't fit are simply left out. Nobody else has tried to create a theory around the events of 9/11 to that extent. Most have just asked questions about things that don't add up or that are inconsistent with any "official" account. Mike Ruppert in Crossing the Rubicon does the best job of exhaustive questioning, and provides a great many answers through dogged pursuit of the truth. "Loose Change" is a good compendium of unanswered questions and challenges to the official line. If you are not a "conspiracy theorist" with regard to 9/11, you are not paying attention.

Joshua is putting in a good effort, but he's unqualified
Posted by: chuckville on Jun 5, 2006 6:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua, I commend you on at least writing about this issue, but as someone who has studied this issue for more than 4 solid years, poring over both the Kean Commission report and hundreds of pages of independent research, watching a slew of documentaries, and having gone to a number of International 9/11 Truth convergences, (aside from being a former Board Member of 9/11 Truth.org) I have to say that just because you haven't seen good evidence does not mean there isn't any, and that it isn't there.

The evidence is overwhelming, but, unfortunateltly, much of it is, sadly, circumstantial. But this does not negate that evidence, it just makes it harder to wield. The very nature of the cover-up is as such that great pains were taken to remove any and all potential "smoking guns."

I liken this situation to astronomers finding a new planet somewhere in the galaxy. They can't actually see the planet, but they can clearly chart the influence of the planet's gravity on other celestial bodies around it, and the equations always add up. In 9/11 Truth, the issue of complicity is the unseen, but completely felt presense of the US establishment--and please understand, no credible 9/11 researcher thinks "THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION" planned and executed the attacks, the attacks were planned and orchestrated by rogue elements in the intelligence services of at least 4 nations, the DOD and its military contractors, the oil and corporate/banking sector, and the usual crew of patsies and useful dupes like Moussaoui, the delusional paranoid schitzophrenic, and Richard Ried, the partially retarded derelict who was produced by the MI-6 (British Intelligence) school for patsies at Finbury mosque in London. Moussaoui claimed the two were going to fly a plane into the White House, but in truth the two could hardly have hijacked a pushcart.

Joshua, there is so much you (and most) simply do not know, have not studied, or do not understand, enough for you to make the assumptions, and conclusions, you draw. I recommend you attend a Truth convergence (the most recent just ended Sunday in Chicago) and do some real investigating, not just putter around the web. Researchers like Steven Jones were actually backchanneled real physical evidence and information which helped them draw up their theories on the bogus collapse (controlled demo) of WTC7, and other areas of study. I am curious to see what official documents or physical evidence you have seen.

I don't want to condem you or pass judgement, because I respect the fact that you are the only Alternet writer willing to tackle this issue. But, you're tackling like a pansy, and you need to put your head down and hit the center of the issue.

There is simply too much evidence to claim that this was "blowback" and our response was "to hijack catastrophe". Here's a hint: look at the history and condition of the WTC itself on 9/11...

» F.Y.I. Posted by: aussidawg
Dr. Andy
Posted by: DoctorAndy on Jun 5, 2006 6:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That 911 was an inside job is now no conspiracy "theory," rather a conspiracy fact. Let us move on:

How does a self-proclaimed FREE society exercise an almost ironclad suppression of the TRUTH in this matter for over four YEARS now?

» RE: Dr. Andy Posted by: Gravy
» RE: Dr. Andy Posted by: IanA
» Give us a break! Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Give us a break! Posted by: IanA