Home
Archive
Columnists
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Register to Vote: Rock the Vote, powered by Working Assets Wireless
Advertisement
  • AlterNetYour turn

Support AlterNet
Do you value the information you're getting from AlterNet? Please show your support with a tax-deductible donation.


Feedback
Tell us how we're doing.

Advertisement
Advertisement

A Response to Critics of 'The Israel Lobby'

By John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, London Review of Books. Posted May 10, 2006.


An academic paper about Israel's role in American foreign policy set off an international firestorm.
Advertisement

The following is a response by the authors of the controversial paper "The Israel Lobby" to their critics. AlterNet staff writer Joshua Holland covered the issues surrounding the paper, and AlterNet columnist Molly Ivins also weighed in. Originally appearing in British style, this letter has been adapted to fit American spelling and punctuation.

We wrote "The Israel Lobby" in order to begin a discussion of a subject that had become difficult to address openly in the United States. We knew it was likely to generate a strong reaction, and we are not surprised that some of our critics have chosen to attack our characters or misrepresent our arguments. We have also been gratified by the many positive responses we have received, and by the thoughtful commentary that has begun to emerge in the media and the blogosphere. It is clear that many people -- including Jews and Israelis -- believe that it is time to have a candid discussion of the U.S. relationship with Israel. It is in that spirit that we engage with the letters responding to our article. We confine ourselves here to the most salient points of dispute.

One of the most prominent charges against us is that we see the lobby as a well-organized Jewish conspiracy. Jeffrey Herf and Andrei Markovits, for example, begin by noting that "accusations of powerful Jews behind the scenes are part of the most dangerous traditions of modern anti-Semitism." It is a tradition we deplore and that we explicitly rejected in our article. Instead, we described the lobby as a loose coalition of individuals and organizations without a central headquarters. It includes gentiles as well as Jews, and many Jewish-Americans do not endorse its positions on some or all issues. Most important, the Israel lobby is not a secret, clandestine cabal; on the contrary, it is openly engaged in interest-group politics, and there is nothing conspiratorial or illicit about its behavior. Thus, we can easily believe that Daniel Pipes has never "taken orders" from the lobby, because the Leninist caricature of the lobby depicted in his letter is one that we clearly dismissed. Readers will also note that Pipes does not deny that his organization, Campus Watch, was created in order to monitor what academics say, write and teach, so as to discourage them from engaging in open discourse about the Middle East.

Several writers chide us for making mono-causal arguments, accusing us of saying that Israel alone is responsible for anti-Americanism in the Arab and Islamic world (as one letter puts it, anti-Americanism "would exist if Israel was not there") or suggesting that the lobby bears sole responsibility for the Bush administration's decision to invade Iraq. But that is not what we said. We emphasized that U.S. support for Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories is a powerful source of anti-Americanism; the conclusion reached in several scholarly studies and U.S. government commissions (including the 9/11 Commission). But we also pointed out that support for Israel is hardly the only reason America's standing in the Middle East is so low. Similarly, we clearly stated that Osama bin Laden had other grievances against the United States besides the Palestinian issue, but as the 9/11 Commission documents, this matter was a major concern for him. We also explicitly stated that the lobby, by itself, could not convince either the Clinton or the Bush administration to invade Iraq. Nevertheless, there is abundant evidence that the neoconservatives and other groups within the lobby played a central role in making the case for war.

At least two of the letters complain that we "catalogue Israel's moral flaws," while paying little attention to the shortcomings of other states. We focused on Israeli behavior, not because we have any animus towards Israel, but because the United States gives it such high levels of material and diplomatic support. Our aim was to determine whether Israel merits this special treatment either because it is a unique strategic asset or because it behaves better than other countries do. We argued that neither argument is convincing: Israel's strategic value has declined since the end of the Cold War, and Israel does not behave significantly better than most other states.

Herf and Markovits interpret us to be saying that Israel's "continued survival" should be of little concern to the United States. We made no such argument. In fact, we emphasized that there is a powerful moral case for Israel's existence, and we firmly believe that the United States should take action to ensure its survival if it were in danger. Our criticism was directed at Israeli policy and America's special relationship with Israel, not Israel's existence.


Digg!

John Mearsheimer is the Wendell Harrison Professor of Political Science at Chicago. Stephen Walt is the Robert and Renee Belfer Professor of International Affairs at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard.

Liked this story? Get top stories in your inbox each week from AlterNet! Sign up now »

Advertisement
Advertisement

 

Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Comments closed.
The comments for this story have been closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
View:
Now I understand
Posted by: morton33 on May 10, 2006 1:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great explanation. You're article was misjudged. Only one thing, you should have ended your explantion with, "Some of my best friends are Jews".
Have a nice day
Morton

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Now I understand Posted by: IanA
» RE: Now I understand Posted by: Jimbo
» RE: Now I understand Posted by: concerned Canadian
» RE: Now I understand Posted by: yellow
» RE: Now I understand Posted by: Barbara
» RE: Now I understand Posted by: yellow
gramps
Posted by: gramps on May 10, 2006 4:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chutzpah

C-Span is marvelous. It is probably the only television outlet where one can get at the unvarnished truth. I listened very carefully as the Palestinian Ambassador spoke at Georgetown and it is the first time that I had gotten a complete analysis of the plight of the Palestinian. Speaking perfect English Afif Safieh revealed a breadth of learning and in rapid fire, if somewhat accented English, presented a complete picture of the sixty year occupation of his country by Zionism. He stated that as a Palestinian that he himself was a Jew and a descendant of the first Christians whom we all know were Jews, including the Christ himself. This gives the lie to the canard that being anti-Zionist is being anti-Semitic. Here in the United States the True Torah Jews are very conservative and have expressed the sentiment that being anti-Zionist is not anti-Semitism. As a Goy this allows me to enter the fray.

In reading Victor Ostravski’s book By Way of Deception the former Israeli case officer informs us that, “The Mossad, (Israeli Intelligence) believe it or not has just 30 to 35 case officers or Katsas, operating in the world at any one time. The main reason for this extraordinary low total , as you will read in the book, is that unlike other countries, Israel can tap the significant and loyal cadre of the worldwide Jewish community outside Israel. This is done through a unique system of (sayanim), volunteer Jewish helpers.” AIPAC the American Israel Political Action Committee exerts a tremendous lobbying effort on our government. Speakers at AIPAC affairs have included Lieberman, Feinstein, Boxer, Dick Cheney and Bill and Hillary Clinton. Presently AIPAC is pressuring the Bush administration to go to war with Iran. This is given weight by the fact that our policy is increasingly being formulated by Israel in conjunction with the oil industry, and what General Eisenhower called, “the military industrial complex.”

I am not an anti-Semite. I have fond memories of my comrades in the progressive movement and Jewish surgeons have twice saved my life. Not being a Jew I think that I have an understanding of the continued rise of anti-Semitism in the United States today.
As a member of the military in World War Two I participated in the liberation of Nazi death camps and have witnessed the horrors inflicted on millions of Jews. I can understand the longing for a homeland that is in the heart of every Jew but one’s homeland should not exclude everyone that is not a Jew. This is the type of Nazi thinking that Jewish nationalism perpetrates.

Under the Israeli Constitution no one but Jews are allowed to own land. While Palestinians still residing in Israel are allowed to vote, their political participation is restricted. The Palestinian situation could be simply solved by making Israel a democracy like that of Great Britain, France, Germany, and the United States that welcomes immigration by peoples from other countries and does not engage in the encroachment on territory that does not belong to them. Israel’s armed forces in Palestine and the spread of Jewish settlers without paying for their stolen land is as much a crime as if The United States sent tanks into Mexico and American’s occupied the beaches of the sea of Cortez. There is no honest citizen of the world who can accept this invasion.
The Zionist continually invokes memories of the Holocaust as an excuse and points to the American history of wiping out indigenous peoples in its own early expansion. This is like saying it is alright to rob a bank because Willie Sutton said “that’s where the money is”. To borrow a Jewish expression. This is pure chutzpah. American Italians, Irish, Polish, and all of the many countries that make up our population, do not consider themselves dual citizens.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: gramps Posted by: woodford54
» RE: gramps Posted by: IanA
» RE: gramps Posted by: symcokid
even money
Posted by: rsaxto on May 10, 2006 4:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When the USA government gives an equal amount of money and other support to a Palestinian government as it does to the Israeli government then we will know that the USA government is being fair and decent to all the peoples of the Middle East and that the Jewish Lobby has failed in its mission. Otherwise, the Jewish lobby will continue to contribute to the Bushies' immoral bias in the Middle East.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: even money Posted by: woodford54
» RE: even money Posted by: IanA
I will kick your head every time you say I am violent
Posted by: cold2touch on May 10, 2006 5:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that Israel Lobby is the sole critic of "Israel Lobby".
In fact, every time someone utters the dread phrase "Israel Lobby", Israel Lobby sends out its jackbooted legions to scream invective that there is no such thing as Israel Lobby and it is a benign animal anyway, and if you dispute this claim, you will get blacklisted, your grants withdrawn, shunned by publishers and fired from your faculty.

So let me say for the record that Israel Lobby is the world's most charitable organization and does not exist in any case, while Isael is a model of sweet democracy, a land of hearts and flowers and its non-Jewish population is treated in full accord with the strictest of Charters of Rights.
Now let me repeat the same for Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib ...

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Great post cold2touch Posted by: TorontoCanada
» RE: Great post cold2touch Posted by: cold2touch
Civilized Discussion
Posted by: wawa on May 10, 2006 6:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Civilized discussions regarding Israel Palestine have been happening on WAWA for the past 10 months:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

“Missing from Israel’s security framing is the very fact of occupation, which Israel both denies exists…and that “security” requires Israel control over the entire country…rendering impossible a just peace based on human rights, international law, reconciliation.” Jeff Halper, "Obstacles to Peace" page 1.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights/UDHR was ratified by Israel when she became a state in 1948.

Yet Israel denies INALIENABLE rights to millions
while America turns a blind eye and continues to provide three billion USA tax dollars a year to help maintain the occupation.

From my March 24, 2006 interview with Vanunu, he stated:
"The Israelis have 200 atomic weapons and they accuse the Palestinians and Muslims of terrorism. The world needs to wake up and see the real terrorism is the occupation and the Palestinians have lived under that terror regime for 40 years.

...Israel propaganda portrays all Palestinians as Muslim extremists and Hamas terrorists and neglect that Palestinian Christians are following the true message of Jesus Christ with nonviolent resistance. We need all Christians to come and see the truth for themselves."

On May 18, 2006
I will speak the truth to power in DC with hope to engage any member of Congress in a civilized discussion.
I will invite them to journey to the Little Town of Bethlehem, which is occupied territory.


International Law states occupation is to be temporary: 40 years is NOT!

Bush took us to war looking for WMD's in Iraq, yet ignores the aged and leaking WMD facility in the Negev.

The Dimona has never had international inspections and Israel has not signed the NPT.

The International Court of Justice had deemed The Wall ILLEGAL and must come down:
yet it continues to grab water and land and does not follow the Green Line.

Until International Law is observed and The Universal Declatation of Human Rights are upheld,
it is a delusion to even consider that
the empire is civilized.



A Public Service message from WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Gitmo and Abu Grahib
Posted by: wawa on May 10, 2006 6:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“The methods and photos from Abu Grahib and Guantanamo were no shock to any Palestinian who had been in prison between 1967 and the ‘80’s. All the methods used in Abu Grahib were normal procedures against Palestinians. In 1999 Internationals, Palestinians and Israelis for human rights threatened a boycott against Israel and that is what forced the Supreme Court to address the torture issue. They did not ban torture and the General Prosecutor can choose not to prosecute those who still use it."-Ala Jaradat of the organization ADAMEER [ WWW.ADDAMEER.ORG]

the above is excerpted from my interview of January 5, 2006 on the WAWA BLOG:
http://www.wearewideawake.org

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Let's let a little accuracy into the discussion
Posted by: Semite on May 10, 2006 6:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a lot of trouble dealing with the Mearsheimer - Walt deceptions, confounding as they do some truth with a lot of falsehood. Clearly these reporters haven't read - or perhaps refuse to appreciate - the factual refutations of substantial portions of M/W's report.
The bias of the commentators below is apparent in their willingness to spread incendiary lies. So, for instance, Gramps says "I am not an anti-Semite....Under the Israeli Constitution no one but Jews are allowed to own land."
Several deceptions here. 1. Last I knew, Israel had still not enacted a Constitution. 2. There is no religious restriction on property ownership in Israel (in fact, the Greek Church owns the land the Knesset sits on). 3. The Israeli Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld the rights of non-Jewish citizens of Israel to own property and reside wherever they like.
He says, further, "Palestinians still residing in Israel are allowed to vote, their political participation is restricted." Well - Yahhh. They are not drafted to join the army to possibly shoot at relatives, though a number of Arabs do volunteer for the Israeli army. And, yes, they are not allowed to try to kill the Jews. We have similar restrictions in this country, and we haven't been at war with our Canada cousins for quite a while.
I also resent his "stolen land" libel. While the anti-Israel crowd doesn't like to acknowledge it, Israel is a law-abiding country. The Jews buy their land just like everyone else in the capitalist world. And yes, there is some land taken by eminent domain for roads and security - but that, too, is a universally accepted process. Where else in the Middle East can an Arab who feels unjustly treated go to court and receive fair treatment in that court. Israel isn't perfect, but she does pretty well for a country that has been attacked by Arab thugs for 125 continuous years.

RSAXTO measures justice in dollars. He believes that the Palestinians need as much money as the Israelis for justice to exists. That clearly shows a misunderstanding of the nature of the problem, and indeed the nature of justice itself. Arabs have been killing Jews in Palestine for 125 years. There are 26 (well, now 24 since Jordan and Egypt are nominally at peace) large, oil-rich Arab countries trying to eliminate tiny Israel. She cannot defend herself against all these troglodyte, anti-infidel powers without outside help. The Arabs have ample wherewithal to help their brethren, but prefer to let the US do it so they can spend their oil money on terrorism and on purchasing our industries and our universities. This is a non-starter as a metric of justice.

Then there's coldt2 touch, who finds sinister method in the pro-Israel lobby, though he's presumably fine with the oil lobby, the Arab lobby, the drug lobby. etc. There is no good reason to criticize the pro-Israel lobby for doing a good job protecting their own. Your family presumably was fine with the Westerner policies during the Twentieth Century when German National Socialism proved to the world that nobody gives a shit about the Jews. Well now someone gives a shit. We are not going to let crazy bastards kill us off without a damned strong fight. So, yes, the Israel lobby will go after you. But remember, when you're Jewish, you don't just get attacked by words. You have goddamned Arab terrorists shooting and bombing you. So don't get so prissy when some Jew challenges you with a few well-chosen words. It could be much worse. You could be Jewish.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» nice response... Posted by: brasilaron
» 40 years of occupation Posted by: gramps
AIPAC = Israel First
Posted by: jreinhart1 on May 10, 2006 6:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those that were involved in the planning of our illegal offensive against Iraq, and promoting the strike against Iran, are part of or joined at the hip to AIPAC.

Read thinkprogress.org/the-architects-where-are-they-now

Then consider the statements coming from the war pimps from Israel just yesterday about a detailed first strike against Iran using long range missiles and air support. The disinformation about Iran moves from Tel Aviv to Washington. The US has been meddling in the lives of Iranians for over 50 years, in no small part with the help of likudites (jewish zionists).

The likudites are also planning on making life hell for the Palestinians, and the US is following orders. I'm just plain sick of fighting wars for Israel who act much like fascists before the holocaust, or the UK (the source of most all our troubles today from a clueless former empire).

The US is almost bankrupt, both fiscally and morally, in no small part to a group of fellow fanatics that couldn't exist without extraordinary subsidies from the US, but are continually biting the hand that feeds them. Our zionist christian leaders and zionist jewish leaders are hellbent on making life a living hell filled with FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) 24/7/365.25

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: AIPAC = Israel First Posted by: symcokid
» RE: AIPAC = Israel First Posted by: Scientz
» RE: AIPAC = Israel First Posted by: jreinhart1
» RE: AIPAC = Israel First Posted by: jleo
» AIPAC, the smear and fear lobby. Posted by: jreinhart1
"Israel Lobby" = AIPAC?
Posted by: Sojourner on May 10, 2006 10:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe some of us, for whom this isn't the issue with the highest priority, would be less confused if the references to who's doing what were kept clear.

I assume AIPAC acts as does every other political action committee--ruthlessly. But when that is generalized to some kind of larger sinister force called the "Israel Lobby" without any further distinctions, that sounds like the same old, same old anti-semitism.

I was glad to read the article, because it was clear that a lot of fast shuffling was going on--non-sequiturs, equivocations, etc. I assume the original piece featured the same.

Surely it is possible to oppose elements of American foreign policy toward Israel without concocting a bogeyman called the "Israel Lobby." If you mean AIPAC, say so.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» pay attention Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: pay attention Posted by: jreinhart1
» RE: pay attention Posted by: sternlight
» RE: "Israel Lobby" = AIPAC? Posted by: VisionQuest
IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE REAL STORY...
Posted by: chuckville on May 10, 2006 12:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...see this film:

Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land
U.S. Media & the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict(2004)

In this section:
Summary
Logistical Information
Biographical Summary
Reviews and Comments
Screenings and Festivals
Articles
Summary:

Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land provides a striking comparison of U.S. and international media coverage of the crisis in the Middle East, zeroing in on how structural distortions in U.S. coverage have reinforced false perceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This pivotal documentary exposes how the foreign policy interests of American political elites--oil, and a need to have a secure military base in the region, among others--work in combination with Israeli public relations strategies to exercise a powerful influence over how news from the region is reported.

Through the voices of scholars, media critics, peace activists, religious figures, and Middle East experts, Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land carefully analyzes and explains how--through the use of language, framing and context--the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza remains hidden in the news media, and Israeli colonization of the occupied terrorities appears to be a defensive move rather than an offensive one. The documentary also explores the ways that U.S. journalists, for reasons ranging from intimidation to a lack of thorough investigation, have become complicit in carrying out Israel's PR campaign. At its core, the documentary raises questions about the ethics and role of journalism, and the relationship between media and politics.

Interviewees include Seth Ackerman, Mjr. Stav Adivi, Rabbi Arik Ascherman, Hanan Ashrawi, Noam Chomsky, Robert Fisk, Neve Gordon, Toufic Haddad, Sam Husseini, Hussein Ibish, Robert Jensen, Rabbi Michael Lerner, Karen Pfeifer, Alisa Solomon, and Gila Svirsky.

http://www.mediaed.org/videos/MediaRaceAndRepresentation/PeacePropaganda

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Rommel
Posted by: werewolf on May 10, 2006 12:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why cant the original Palestine be restored with full civil rights for the immigrant Jews? In that manner wiping Israel off the map as the Iranian President wishes is just that, erasing the borders of Israel on a literal map. No genocide and no deportation of the immigrant Jews paving the way for real unity among the Semites as it was before Israel was created.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» There is none Posted by: brasilaron
» addendum Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: ommel Posted by: sternlight
» RE: ommel Posted by: werewolf
Rommel
Posted by: werewolf on May 10, 2006 2:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I beg to differ. Palestine is conceived to be a specific area where the Palestinians had their homeland for centuries before the foreign European Jew immigrants arrived. Clearly, the borders of that area are the borders of Palestine whether it was demarcated or not as such on a map.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: ommel Posted by: jolo
» RE: ommel Posted by: sternlight
» RE: ommel Posted by: sternlight
» RE: ommel Posted by: werewolf
» RE: ommel Posted by: sternlight
» RE: Rommel Posted by: werewolf
European Jews are the victims of European Christians, NOT Arabs!
Posted by: werewolf on May 10, 2006 4:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You have conveniently forgotten that it was Hitler and his European Christian Army that murdered the Jews. The poor Arabs (Palestinians) never ever invaded Europe to kill even one European Jew. So please dont twist facts in your blind hatred of the Arabs. Enough of your hatred for the Arabs....please....please

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Bob
Posted by: BobM on May 10, 2006 5:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Altho I agree with Mearsheimer and Walt that the question of U.S. support for Israel is fairly debatable and that the attacks of their critics are mostly either ad hominem or otherwise lamentably lame, their contention that oil had nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq and that the invasion was not in the interests of U.S. oil companies is simply silly. Josh Holland had a good post on this very point just yesterday on this very site. See
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/themix/36031/#more

Further, as a long-time BP shareholder (who has opposed the illegal Iraqi misadventure since before the invasion), I can tell you that the rise in oil prices since it took place, and especially since Bush has started to really rattle the sabres against Iran, has been great for the companies and their shareholders. The fact that some oil industry executives may contend that trouble in the Middle East is not in the industry's interest is belied by the numbers. The increased price of oil boosts the value of the industry's reserves and its profits and, not incidentally, the take home pay of those same executives (including their options and other stock based compensation). They claim to lament the troubles because they have to travel in the Middle East and have relationships to protect.

Finally, to the extent that there is a strategic rationale for the Bush-Cheney policy of regime change in Iraq and Iran, it has been explicitly stated to be centered on controlling the oil to be able, if necessary or politically expedient, to use it as leverage in the projected struggle for global supremacy with China.

That "realists" like Mearsheimer and Walt could miss the mark so badly on this point and that supporters of the Bush-Cheney policies could be so far off on everything else is a reflection of the sorry state of brain power among the political and intellectual elites in this country.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Bob Posted by: mcmircle
Israel is missing out on a good bet
Posted by: vespasian01 on May 10, 2006 8:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israelis have all the resources needed to become world leaders in trade, design and manufacture. Consider that this State possesses 1) financial expertise and assets, 2) scientific expertise, 3) full literacy, 4) no viable military opposition and 5) close access to a hardworking labor pool. Israel has the power to create peace, gain universal respect and establish itself as a world economic force.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

The power of an idea
Posted by: mm on May 11, 2006 2:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it interesting that one criticism of this article is to present a simple fact: that there is not an organization akin to anything described in "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" that actively seeks to infiltrate American culture with Zionist doctrine. This is obviously true, but it doesn't negate the observation of the article: that American foreign policy may be unduely influenced by Israeli interests.

There doesn't have to be a united conscious effort or conspiracy to promote Israel and persecute critics of Zionism because the Zionist agenda has a built-in ally in that peculiar strain of American Fundamentalism known as Dispensationalism. Jewish leaders don't need to accuse anyone who points out the flaws of the Israeli government of anti-Semitism because there are hordes of Right-Wing fundamentalist gentiles willing to do it for them. In fact, from what I've read, actual Israelis or Jews who attend rallies in support of Israel among the Christian Fundamentalists are often surprised and disturbed to learn the part they play in Dispensationalist eschatology. The irony, from my perspective, is that these people support Israel because they believe it will lead to the end of Judaism when the Jews who survive Armagedeon are converted to Christianity.

It is an article of faith for these people that the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 was a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy that presages the "end times." They equate the Kingdom of Israel with the modern nation-state, so criticism of Israel is akin to blasphemy. Add to this the very valid disdain of the Holocaust and the horrible effects of anti-Semetism over the centuries and what you get is a lot of WASP Americans who are subconsciously afraid that if they don't support Israel it makes them Nazis. The power of this idea goes beyond any organized effort that could be implemented by Zionists because it has a subconscious effect on the attitudes of Americans towards our Israeli policy.

I've come to believe that most of the people who do this aren't doing it as a conscious tactic, but rather because they are intellectually incapable of distinguishing between a sincere criticism of the policies of Israel and an attack against Jews in the vein of Holocaust denial.

It is cognitive dissonance on an Orwellian scale. Many Americans advocate the Zionist agenda not because they are part of any conspiracy but because it's simply not within the realm of possibility to do otherwise. That some of us, like myself, can recognize the atrocity of the Holocaust and agree that we should never let it happen again and also recognize the rights of the Palestinians is inconceivable to them.

Remember, friends, that these are usually the same people who don't have the capability for abstract thought to reconcile Evolution and Creationism. If their preacher tells them it is so, it's as good at the words of Jesus in red. That, I believe, is why Zionism finds such fertile soil among the gentile Christians of our beloved nation.

-mm

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: The power of an idea Posted by: sternlight
» RE: The power of an idea Posted by: werewolf
» RE: The power of an idea Posted by: sternlight
» RE: Posted by: werewolf
» RE: Posted by: werewolf
You may write about Isarel but Not for Israel above the interests of USA
Posted by: werewolf on May 11, 2006 4:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dont try to deflect attention from the misdeeds of the Israeli lobby by such deceptive 2 liners. Americans are beginning to see the hidden agenda of the Lobby.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

gra,[s
Posted by: gramps on May 12, 2006 6:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All Jews are not Zionists and all Zionists are not Jews. You shall know them by the company they keep and keeping company with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell is no recommendation.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

I LOVE READING THESE DISCUSSIONS
Posted by: cold2touch on May 12, 2006 7:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It shows that the real discourse of the nation lies outside artificially defined confines of Big Brother's Ministry of Truth.

It shows that Americans are not lard headed trailer trash clueless about existence of outside world or objective truth.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Please clarify
Posted by: werewolf on May 12, 2006 10:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who is the he that you are refering to?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Please clarify Posted by: werewolf
amacd
Posted by: amacd on May 12, 2006 2:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All this debate and argument about an Israel lobby, how influential it is, and even whether it is taboo to discuss an Israel lobby, seems to miss an important point. Namely, that any lobby, no matter how powerful, is really only a well-heeled supplicant seeking to influence those ruling and in power.

The more intriguing question would seem to be, who are the entrenched powers who don’t ever need to lobby, but rather rule --- and are the recipients of lobbying?

Is there an even more taboo question yet to be raised about the ‘old economy’ ruling-elite empire, which is the focus of all such supplicants?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: amacd Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: amacd Posted by: sternlight
Some good books
Posted by: TWilliams on May 16, 2006 6:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have nothing to add to this that hasn't already been said. I do think it i sad that if anyone does criticize Israel or their "lobby" they get labeled as racists. Democracy dies when people cannot express their views.

Also..here are some good books I have read:

By Way of Deception by Victor Ostrovsky (discontinued by the publisher - go figure) But you can get it on Amazon dirt cheap.

Samson Option : Israel's Nuclear Arsenal & American Foreign Policy by Seymour M. Hersh

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Some good books Posted by: yellow
» RE: Some good books Posted by: sternlight
» RE: Some good books Posted by: sternlight