It's a semantic issue: One is anti-Nazi, not anti-German. Those Germans who opposed Hitler were not self-hating Germans, they were true patriots.
Alas, (NB to the Palestinians) perhaps we only learn from our oppressors.

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Israel is the problem in the Middle East. The Palestinians, who certainly deserve their own country, are simply responding to a critical situation perpetrated by guess who? I was particularly appalled by the nasty and petty little land grabs perpetrated by Israel as they were building their so-called security wall. Shame on Israel, they are almost as bad as the late great USA!

Karma is a bitch ya don't wanna mess with.

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Take away the labels and they are all human beings. Factually the only organized Jewish resistance to the Holocaust was in Warsaw, Poland. Certainly after being offered a place to live after WWII (there were too many "displaced persons" in Europe that were placing burdens on the already devastated infrastructure. Since most were Jewish Isreal became the logical solution. Once there however the realization of oppression and genocide must have sunk in. What happens is these situations is what is called "identifying with the aggressor" (Anna Freud). It appears that is what happened with the Jewish population in the beginning of the state of Isreal. The British bore the brunt of this new found resistance and violence and once they were removed the Jewish population was surrounded by what can only be seen as their brothers (Arabs and Jews have a shared history). As brothers and sisters they saw in each other what they most diliked in themselves. The Jewish population saw a poor and subordinate culture and the Arabs saw a aggressive and economically properous culture. The conflict goes deeper than ethnic labels. It becomes an issue of being secure in who and what you are rather than some ideological or institutional identity.

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It is interesting that anti-semitic, which technically should mean against ANY semitic people, i.e. Jews AND Arabs and many more people from the near and middle east, has come to mean anti-Jewish, which it most decidedly is not. In fact, by changing the meaning of this word to mean anti-Jewish only, it implies an unconsicous conceit that the Jewish people, no matter their origin, are the only "true" semitic peoples that belong in the Mideast.

It is also interesting that "anti-semitic" card is most played when the target of the attack is actually anti-Zionist.

Anti-Zionist is definitely NOT the same as either anti-Jewish OR anti-semitic.

And everyone must remember that Israeli citizens, just like Americans, are victims of a government they did NOT elect and that does NOT represent them, through a corrupt and phony so-called "democratic" election process that hides, facilitates, and props up a rabid military-industrial-corporate one-party fascist government, now, thankfully, finally at war with itself over the factions that want to actually win wars and those that want to perpetuate them endlessly as moneyminting windfalls of raping taxpayers.

The killing that both the Israeli and American governments do in the name of their people, and worse yet, in the name of God, are not supported by the majority of the citizens in either country, but because of no longer valid and accurate voting machines and methods, they cannot do anything to stop them short of revolution.

The lobbies of the military-industrial-corporate cabal own both governments completely and utterly and ultimately, fatally.

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It's to the point that if you want to know what the truth is in Israel all you need do is see who intellectual hack Alan Dershowitz is railing against. Remember him trying to block the release of Norman Finklestein's excellent book, "Beyond Chutzpah"?

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I agree w/Ms. Ivins except for the comment "I'm pro-Israel." This obligatory phrase is similar to other obligatory actions taken by public persons in order to avoid the wrath of the "non-existent" Israel lobby. In the case of politicians, a visit to Israel and a prayer at the Wailing Wall or the new "Jailing" Wall has become de riguer for a favorable election outcome. (e.g. Hillary Clinton.) Supressing debate is of course the best indicator that one's activities can't bear the lightof day. How someone can, in good conscience say "I'm pro-Israel" after observing the daily atrocities committed against a people whose only sin is being born on a land that is coveted by people who weren't is beyond me. Wasn't it Camus who said, "Yesterday's opressed are today's oppressors?" BTW the Israeli apologists have taken ownership of the word Semitic, which is a linguistic categorization not a genetic one. Anyone who speaks a language derived from the original Semitic is by definition Semitic. Therefore Jews who don't speak Hebrew aren't even Semites. It is an attempt by said apologists to set themselves up as a homogenious people when they are really quite divergent and come from various racial, ethnic and national backgrounds. They have also taken ownership of Hitler--witness the outcry whenever anyone compares someone else to Hitler. Hitler, anti-Semitism, the Holocaust--they belong to the Jews and don't you dare try to use them!

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I would be happier if Ms. Ivins mentioned the anti-American demonstration in New York by Islamofascists than her rant against a legal group who has never threatened this country with anything worse than great computer/medical discoveries.

I have yet to see her write anything against the Saudi/oil lobby, the anti-semitism on college campuses, and the car dealership lobby.

I generally love her writings and I own her books, but in the subject of Israel she disappoints me.

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Ivins is right on target to say that there is an appalling lack of discussion about Israel in the USA.

Ivins is wrong on the reason why.

Ivin's theory that Jews, themselves victimized, find it "especially diffcult for them to admit they have victimized others" is simply not borne out by abundent evidence to the contrary. Many Jews -- Israeli and American -- have a deeply painful understanding of the agony that Palestinians feel. Jews, too, were once homeless; and the irony that they are now oppressors (however unwillinging) is hardly lost on most Jews

The dialogue is stymied, I think, because many Jews (and others) find it difficult to reconcile their love of Israel with their loathing for its oppression of the Palestinian people. They see a options without a choice, and so remain silent.

Some Jews want to break that silence. Among themselves, and with others. For one example, check out the Jewish Dialogue Group in Philadelphia PA.

Bruce
bruce@schimmel.com

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for saying what needs to be said over and over again.
And thanks for saying it in such a calm, thoughtful way.
We all ought to be allowed to come to the table, break bread, and speak of things uncomfortablely divisive, while we foge the bonds of trust in creating solutions not further bile!

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running for Congress or the Senate???? I remember when the Congressman from Maryland questioned the unprecedented power and influence AIPAC had in Congress and he was frustrated about it from a political stand point based on his honorable desire to represent his constituents in issues that were in direct conflict with Israel. He said he felt that pressure when in fact it was a simple matter to vote his conscience except where this was concerned.

He, like Molly mentioned the conflict in some cases against American interests that we ended up supporting in favor of Isreal and her issues. I never saw anything like it. He was attacked brutally by an editorial in the NY Times and other national publications and it was the most coordinated and oppressive thing I had ever seen. Many such Israeli supporting organizations jumped on the band wagon as well (the poverty law center, the ADL etc.)

I dont' remember how that ended up, but I do know he was forced to "apologize" for his comments. That was the first time I noticed this use of "antisemitism" against anyone who criticized the AIPAC lobby or Israel.

I started paying more attention and saw it WHENEVER these issues were raised, including the invasion of Iraq. Since then I have used a Jaundiced eye toward that term when its thrown out there and now finally believe that there is no difference anymore between true racism which still exists and simple disagreement with or criticism of Israel and its actions involving its best friend, the US.

That makes the power they have much more onerous and dangerous. It needs to stop.

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Debate is great

WAWA has the exclusive, explosive and uncensored by the Israeli Military the DVD

30 Minutes with Vanunu

guaranteed to be abhored by the Israeli Lobby


Available as a FREE Public Service message from WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

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Without a doubt, the Christian Zionist and AIPAC contingency has brought stupid decision making by our elected "leaders" that has gone way overboard for the last few decades culminating in what is increasingly looking like a world wide holy war of Abrahamic faiths to the detriment of peace.

The history of Israel is a sordid one that starts out in WW I With the Belfor declaration for the World Zionist Organization which he called apon in that war when the Jewish community at large in Russia didn't show any interest in helping this Christian Zionist. This declaration (a must read) was made after promises were made to the arabs for autonomous states if they helped push back the Turks. President Wilson was no better and in many was, was the architect of WW II, believing also that the feable minded should be limited on childbearing. He too was a religious fanatic.

Fast forward to post WW II and the Truman administration and we find that, against all recommendations, Truman follows his Press Secretary, Clark Clifford's recommendation to recognize Israel to help win the 1948 elections with the Jewish vote. It woud bring him the support of the Senate of which 25 Zionist supporters wrote to him directly as well, but was against all recommendations of his staff (George C. Marshall was furious) and the Allies who considered the move far to much to fast.

The whole affair of AiPAC is based upon religious zealotry, end of times wingnuts and poor decisions made by weak leaders at a time when good judgement was needed most.

Jewish Zionists, Christian Zionists and Islamic Jihadist are the the most dangerous groups of people pushing the buttons in heading to war today. AIPAC has shown they are a leading integral group of the Neocon insiders and fully support wars of aggression. Moral Jews, Christians and Muslims need to step up NOW if we are to avoid a possible WW III.

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I am a pro-Israel gentile. Pre-WWII Eurropean anti-Semitism made it seem logical to help them to emigrate to their historic homeland after WWII. This location was their choice.

I think the problems arose because the Israelis were given preferential treatment. Money was funneled to the Israelis that made Israel a diamond in a pile of crap.

Hindsight makes me believe that the aid should have been spread throughout the entire area. Had the surrounding countries been made equally prosperous and had commercial ties been established between them and Israel, I think we would have peace there.

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at youtube - I forget why this originally caught my eye, but it really made me think, and wonder, and get more interested in the whole "Israel Lobby" "Zionism" "Jewish" debate in all its forms:

Anti-Zionist Jewish Protesters Shows a group of rabbis being accosted by a very angry man, whom they call a Zionist.

Very interesting, you should take a look.

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Mollie Ivins has done us a service by opening this discussion.

It is one that is not well-served by speaking in broad generalities and a forceful tone. My experience is that approach usually end up misportraying the truth.

AIPAC ill represents the majority of American Jews, who voted 80-20% for Gore and Kerry., when it cozies up to the likes of Dick Cheney, John Bolton and the activist evangelicals. It also ill-serves Israel when it pushes a radical agenda that most Israelis do not support.

For a more nuanced discussion of the topic of pro-peace Zionism, visit www.peacenow.org. American Friends of Peace Now is the spokesperson for those of us who support the best interests of Israel and Palestine through negotiation and compromise.

We face a very difficult challenge in the Hamas leadership, and I am not sure it is very productive to observe that it could have been avoided had Israel and the US been smarter and more effective after the death of Arafat. But there is still progress that can be made if cool heads prevail on all sides. It is a debate that would be welcome on these shores. Shouting down the discussion, however, with cries of "anti-Semitism" or "Zionist faschism," however, does not get us very far down that road. One day, maybe we'll all observe that screaming in righteous indignation is not very much of a solution to anything, on any side.

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Bravo Molly! It goes without saying that you will now be in the thick of one unholy shit fight and I fully expect the calumny to be heaped upon you by the fanatics.

No other topic generates such an asymmetric response, than stating opinions or worse still, the truth, than with regard to Israel or it's formidably international followers of the Jewish faith.

Silence under criticism or debate is for many people in the third millennium a hallmark of the dignified state. Look no further than what Germany has achieved since 1945. Thus providing it's future generations the chance to live in peace with their neighbours.

Did not Germany at some point, have to forgive itself for the past to get on with the future?

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La cosa es simple, los israelies (su gobierno) se están comportando y actuando con los palestinos como los nazis lo hicieron con ellos. Mientras no admitan y corrijan esta situación las cosas solo iran para peor.

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Heck, I'm not anti-Jewish, I'm just anti-Israel. And this uproar by the (nonexistant?) Israeli lobby is just more of the prissy, paranoid, drama queen histrionics we should have come to expect from that country.

Israel was founded on hype and thievery and it maintains it's existence the same way. It is hardly a surprise that Israelis have come to believe their own propoganda: that they are sacrosanct, hero/victims fulfilling destiny by stealing back their "historic homeland". (Israel had planned from it's very inception in the late 19th century to displace the [Palestinian] Arabs and rob them of their land. Even in the 1890's the founders and creators of the Jewish state in Israel had this in mind. Just read some of their stuff: they made no bones about it. And most of the world was happy to solve their own "Jewish problem" by letting it happen: let the trouble makers go to Israel. And they did.)

So what else should we expect?

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I don't know that I've ever felt intimidated by the knee-jerk "you're anti-Semitic" charge leveled at anyone who criticizes Israel, but I do know I have certainly heard it often enough to become tired of it.

I wonder if Molly thought of this sentiment when she wrote this in her Immigration 101 column:

"Racists seem obsessed by the idea that illegal workers -- the hardest-working, poorest people in America -- are somehow getting away with something, sneaking goodies that should be for Americans. You can always avoid this problem by having no social services. This is the refreshing Texas model, and it works a treat."

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I realize that I am posting on a leftist website not friendly to Zionism.

However, Molly Ivens contention that the the critics of the M&W paper are "a nut job" is way over the top.


Many of the critics of the paper like Chomsky have been critical of Israeli policy longer than M&W. Besides when Chomsky and Dershowitz agree on something than it's time to sit up and take not. The truth is that the paper is flawed in more ways than one.

Ms. Ivin's contention that to criticize the Jewish State is not anti-Semitic would be ture if one's criticized merely its policies and not its right to exist.

Her other assertion that it's time to debate policy on Israel assumes that such debates haven't been held in the past and are being held today. They have been and they are.

Just because Ms. Ivins along with M&W do not like the outcome of these debates doesn't mean that they haven't been held.

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Molly forgot to mention that David Duke (very famous right-wing anti-Semite) was one of the first to publically applaud the paper.

Molly forgot to mention that the paper was riddled with errors to such an extent that academics who defended W&M against charges of anti-Semitism felt compelled to mention that they themselves had qualms with the paper.

Jews have the right to call a paper, an article, an idea, a movie, etc. anti-Semitic -- just as much as an African American has the right to call something racist.

Jews are not necessarily being irrational or emotional when they call something anti-Semitic.

Americans react strongly and emotionally to accusations of anti-Semitism because they associate it primarily with Nazis and the Holocaust.

But anti-Semitism, like all things, lies along a continuum.

Jewish leftist in our community discussed the issue of when anti-Israel-ism or any communication becomes anti-Semitism and identified three criteria:

1. the deliberate or careless spread of misinformation that blackens the image of Jewish leaders and institutions

2. the application of the double standard (one standard for Jews and/or Israel) and another for the rest of the world

3. the dehumanization of Jews and/or Jewish institutions

An issue raised by the paper may be a valid one while at the same time the paper may be anti-Semitic.

Certainly, the American public has as much right to debate what is anti-Semitic as they have to debate whether American policy in the Middle East violates American interests.

And finally, if each of us were to spend just a little time examining the ways in which we are -- each of us -- racist, anti-Semitic, anti-Arab, anti-Muslim, then we would -- each of us -- be doing a little to help eliminate these unfortunate phenomena. But together, we would doing a very powerful thing.

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Thank you Molly for provoking a dialogue that has taught me much about Israel's history and the diversity of voices in the Jewish community in the US.
My sadness with the hyper-sensitivity of some Jews to criticism of Israel, stems from the the kind of pressure that caused a theatre company in NYC to scrap a play about Rachel Corrie, who was killed by an Israeli bulldozer while she was defending the homes of Palestinians.
I am a theologically educated Christian who is grounded in the Torah -- the Hebrew scriptures -- and knows that Jesus was a Jew whose teachings taught him compassion for the widows and poor, anger at injustice and loving one's neighbour. I don't see those qualities in so many of Israel's actions in regard to the Palestinians. I , therefore, cannot support blind US support for an ever-expanding Israel. The Palestinians deserve a viable state too.

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Great Article!

Great comments!

Great board!

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It is unfortunate that USA and Israeli foreign policy are both in major error at this point in time. It is fortunate that there are many jews who disagree with these bad policies, such as Noam Chomsky. If we could get Israeli and USA intelligence agencies to stop committing crimes against many peoples of the world, we might have a chance to survive USA/Israeli/allies tyranny created by their addiction to mass violence. If this mass violence were to disappear the mass violence of the opposing "terrorists" would disappear also.

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Given the amount of US gov't. foreign aid going to Israel, and the amount of private aid given to Isreal from US citizens and organizations, one wonders if Israel could stand on its own feet.
Is Israel an American colony in the Middle East?
Should we make it the 51st state?
If we did, they could have an official seat in the US gov't. and wouldn't need to have a lobby.
Just a thought.

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AIPAC has undoubtedly been a powerful and persuasive lobby when it come to influencing the policies of the US government. Ms. Ivins, who I respect greatly, is correct in some of the points that she makes. However, while AIPAC does wield much power it is instructive to note that these discussions are NEVER counterpointed with the amount of influence wielded by the Saudi's, OPEC and/or Big Oil. It is little wonder that supporters of Israel suspect Anti-Jewish
motives on the part of the attackers. To discuss anything in the ME without paying heed to the power wielded by the "Oiled Interests" is naive at best.

The heat of emotion she has engendered in her article is quite instructive as to the tenor of debate that occurs here on Alternet every time Israel is discussed.

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Ms. Ivins... As a Jew, I am sick and tired of seeing the left increasingly share the views of Arafat, bin Laden and Hamas. I read these stupid articles (like your article and those of such illustrious professors) and say to myself, would those terrorist groups agree with the articles. And I immediately say "of course". And that makes me sick. Seeing how hateful the left has been toward Israel, and how simpathetic they are to child and women killers, I start to wonder why I ever voted Democratic in my past. You disgust me. You look at Arabs as brown people, and thus, since they are not white, like you, or some Jews in Israel, that they must be right. How self-hating and moronic of you. These animals only like your support for them because you are useful idiots. Once they kill all the Jews, they will be going after the guilt-ridden Christians next. Their whole world is a Crusade. Your world is all about hoping that bad people just won't bother you because you were nice to them. Please look at some history. Please get some facts. And let me ask you all this about the West Bank... if Jordan controlled it iin the 1950s and 1960s, why didn't they give it to the "Palestinian" people? Why didn't they create a state for these lovely people? Because these people are merely pawns to them. Pawns which gives the Arab world a reason to scream that 700 million of them are victims. Reason to kill the Jews which they hate only slightly more than they hate western Christians. What has happened to the left? How long have you hated Israel? How long have you buddied up with the propoganda spewing scum? Articles like this make me vote for Republicans that I don't like. Why? Because as nutty as they are, as least they don't want to give away our lives to the people that hate us. At least they are willing to fight. At least they won't sell the Jews down the river again (remember WWII?) so that they can believe that the world will be a wonderful place once those pesky Jews in Israel are removed. And you know what I mean by "removed". Get your head out of the compost heap and wake up. Or, why don't you move to Ramallah. I am sure they will treat you great.

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Since I go to a lot of Progressive Websites daily I sometimes come across the same writer on different sites. This is the case with Molly's latest column. imagine my surprise, followed by chagrin, when I realized that the inflamatory headline about "Nujobs" came not from Molly, but from the fevered (febrile?) brain of some Alternet headline writer. The syndicate representing Molly simply distributed the story designated by date. Working For Change had a less inflamatory and more descriptive headline. What goes on here?

I'm very familiar with Molly's writings and although she is offtimes colorful in her descriptive language, in this instance that doesn't seem to be the case.

Nutjobs indeed!

Could it be that your headline writer has an axe to grind? I think that is apparent. What is her/his purpose? To inflame an already inflammatory issue? Towards what end. Since I do support Israel, but not AIPAC, am I a "nutjob?" Since I have recognized and spoken out against the small minority of Alternet posters who are bigots am I a nutjob? Is it that bigotry against Jews is appropriate from a progressive perspective? I think not.

If you come from the position that Israel has no right to exist and that the Arabs are the true owners of this disputed land, I disagree with your viewpoint. That doesn't make you a bigot in my mind and I believe that everyone has a right to their opinions, no matter how wrong.

The facts are though that some criticism of Israeli policies and those who support them does drift over into bigotry, whether through ignorance or intention. Many people who purport to be Progressive in thought seem to find no fault with that. My take on them is that they lack the depth of analysis and thought that marks a true Progressive, but then we all have faults. Your headline writer must have enjoyed getting his/her anger off in this instance. Too bad she/he is incapable of mature discussion and debate.

More importantly though the idea that Jews are not allowed to defend themselves against real bigotry is noxious. The implication that Jews are not allowed to strongly lobby for matters they deem important only rises to bigotry when the fact that equally powerful lobbying from OPEC, CAIR, etc. is ignored or hidden.

Righteous indignation becomes blatant hypocrisy and/or ignorance when an individual can only ingest those ideas that agree with their original premise, sort of like the Republicans under George Bush. Too bad that there are some on the progressive side who eagerly copy the same dumb mindset.

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One of the interesting data from the Mearsheimer and Walt paper is that the US gives Israel three billion dollars per year in aid. That's more than we give to any other country. And in contrast to other foreign aid contributions, it's with almost no oversight or strings attached.

If this isn't a testament to the strength of the Israel lobby in the US, I don't know what is.

-K.Ai.-

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No one mentions that most of these neocon fanatics are Jewish
They became nuts because US was not militaristic enough. in other words more agressive in middle east.I have been told when U.S attacted Iraq ,Jews celebrated.Yet as a veteran there are very few jews who serve in U.S. military ,yet is my son expected to die for Israel????? you figure it out . Iam not anti anything or anybody,that old tired anti semetic card is played out.

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Years ago long before 9/11 I read an op-ed piece by a journalist who said that there would never be peace in the Middle East until the Israelis' feel that a Palestinian life is as valuabe as their own...hmmm...

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I love the Jewish People. I love them so much, in fact, that I want them all here with me in America, where they will be infinitely more safe and infinitely more prosperous than they would, could, and WILL EVER BE in Palestine.

I also love the Palestinian, Arab, and Islamic People. I love them so much, in fact, I believe that all they really want is autonomy over their land and natural resources, and for themselves and their children to live in peace, free of occupying military forces, by their very nature, hostile. I believe these people I love will only quit blowing themselves up when this is achieved, because Americans would be no different if Palestine were America and Israel was China. I also understand that the end result of ANY "War on Terrorism" is genocide, because that can be the only result from a process that logarithmically increases "the enemy" with each "accidental" "collateral damage" killing.

I am also a realist. I understand that this cannot happen until the United States oil and energy industry IS FORCED to completely covert to alternative fuel sources, thereby ending for all time, the need for the 51st State/Military Satellite of Israel, and the 52nd State/Military Satellite of Iraq.

I also understand that this will only happen once the PEOPLE OF AMERICA become wise to and completely fed up with the warmonger politicians, war profiteers, and offense contractors who hide behind a veneer of FEIGNED CALCULATED incompetence, when all along their aim is running endless money minting wars of absolute incompetence, insuring an endless rape of American taxpayers. THIS is why the military is currently revolting; they want to WIN WARS if they're ordered to fight them.

Here is the ANSWER.

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http://bushwatch.org/bush2004.htm#neocons

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Israel is not the number 1 recepient of US aid. It's Iraq.

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I am against the Iraq war, as are most American Jews. I am against the occupation of the West Bank as are most American Jews. I am against Israel having a Right Wing Government. Naturally then, I don't believe that for someone to criticize Israeli policies makes them Anti-Jewish.

The Anti-Jewishness comes in when people make statements to the effect that the Neocons are Jewish. There is an undertone there that is not only bigoted in implication, but it is also lacks understanding of who these guys are. For instance a Neocon elder is Henry Kissinger, a Jew. Kissinger's record has been anything but pro-Israel in his time working for Nixon and since. The assumption that just because someone is Jewish, and right of center, that they care about the fate of Israel is mistaken and bigoted.

Perl, Wolfowitz, Feith, etc. are not acting on their Jewishness. They are more involved with being toadies for the rich and powerful. They may at times invoke Israel as a justification for their policies. Any person wise to their machinations understands that this invocation comes not from love of Israel, but from lust for power. In any event they are clearly not leaders but followers in thrall to the lure of those with power, who are gentiles also with no love for Israel. Israel is a pawn in the battle for oil, which is the only reason that there is interest in the ME by the nations that are world powers. Israel it is small in size and population and due to this it has to walk a difficult line and at times dance to the tune of the US.

AIPAC, which I hold no brief for, is less the puppet master than the puppet of the machinations of the Oil interests. Since most of the AIPAC leaders are successful blowhards they even fool themselves into believing that they influence anything. To borrow a cliche "follow the money." In this instance the money is in oil of which Israel has none. Compare the wealth of just one element of Big Oil, Exxon for instance, to the combined wealth of AIPAC and its' contributors. The AIPAC types aren't in league with the wealth of Exxon. Why would anyone believe that they could exert anywhere near as much influence? They are followers, misguided to be sure, who try to act as if the are movers and shakers.

The continuing turmoil in the ME is all about oil and money. If Isreal didn't exist the likes of OPEC and Big Oil would have to invent it. Why? Because it keeps the mind of the average Mid Eastern person off of the fact that they live with oppression an squalor, while their leaders bask in opulence. Israel has been cast in the role of Bogeyman to the man in the Islamic
Street.

The neo Palestinians also play their role as the oppressed. The fact is that their Muslim Bretheren have kept them in poverty, oppression and depredation all these years to serve as a counterpoint to the Israeli Bogeyman. The truth of this can be answered in one simple question. With all the wealth concentrated in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, etc., why weren't the material comforts of the Palestinians seen to when they were in detention camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, or even now on the West Bank and Gaza?

To me the obvious answer is so that their poor living conditions could be used as inflammatory propaganda. Those Progressives who are so inflamed by what they see as Israeli oppression, would have more credibility if they also felt rage regarding the cruelty with which the rest of the Arab world treats it citizens. I'm talking about oppression of women, poverty, hunger, inhumane punishments, homophobia and lack of basic rights. Without that concommitent rage all they are doing is being pawns of agitprop. A true progressive should be able to see beyond the fog of propaganda. How is it that so many of us who clearly see the Bush lies, fail to see the lies of Big Oil when they are so interrelated?

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Alan Dershowitz is an Israeli terrorist.
It is easy to check.
Connect couple of electrical wires to
his testicles, after all that is what hi propagates,
and in five minutes You will see, that I am absolutely right

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I agree with Molly. It is long pass time that we deal with Israel as a foreign country with separate interest that differ from U.S. interests. We are a superpower and Israel is a regional Middle East power. Israel has developed a powerful regional military and is the only one possessing nuclear weapons. We now find ourselves in a war that directly benefit the regional interests of Israel but is detrimental to U.S. energy and economic interests. For example, we are trying to deny Iran nuclear weapons while we ignore Israel's nuclear program. It's ridiculous! It is pass time trying to satisfy Israel at the expense of our interest and world commitments.

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A lot of what Molly Ivins says, and what M & W say, is unobjectionble. But I'm disappointed that she accepts their pre-emptive dismissal of any and all criticism as coming from AIPAC supporters. This guilt by association is the mirror image of AIPAC's assertion that any criticism of Israeli policies must be motivated by anti-semitism, and it's just as deliberately intended to shut down discussion.
I'm further disappointed that Ivins fails to acknowledge that anti-semitism does exist and inevitably colors any debate about the Middle East. As a fellow WASP. Ivins must surely know as well I do that many of our people feel a superiority and a gut-level hostility to "the chosen people," just as they do to most other ethnicities. If she doesn't recall hearing friends and neighbors use "Jew" as a verb, perhaps she heard a family member harrumph over a Catskills comic on Ed Sullivan: "I wonder what his real name is?" Failing that, she can read some of the entries in this thread. One of the tragedies of Israel's history is that its association with US militarism has legitimized those attitudes (along with Western European resentment of the moral claims of the Holocaust) among "progressives" who should know better.

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My initial thought on this had to do with Iraq but I believe it applies generally today, including Israel-Palestine.
High technology warfare conducted by economic powers vs impoverished nations yields, I believe, a kill ratio of around 100:1 Consider that in Vietnam (incl. Cambodia & Laos),
four million people were killed by the good guys while we ourselves sustained 55-thousand deaths. In the 30 years since, killing efficiency has improved notably.

As for forward thinking, this can be accomplished for the Israelis by recognizing a few basic facts: 1) The party with overwhelming strength ALWAYS dictates policy and outcome. Poor policy, of course, will preceed poor outcome. 2) Policy, like financial planning, will produce either short-term satisfaction or long-term security, rarely both. The advantage of the latter is that it lends an aura of wisdom to the planner.

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The biggest part of the problem is that the AIPAC crowd, the Israel lobby, loves to boast of its enormous influence to impress its own supporters and contributors. Remember that these organizations depend on contributors, so have to pretend they are effective. Outsiders hear all that PR and not understanding the dynamics, often take it seriously. As one who worked for a big national Jewish organization, I can tell you that they are like the mosquito on the back of the elephant. After they cross the bridge, the mosquito buzzes in the elephant's ear: "Boy did we shake that bridge." The lobby keeps screaming about its influence while the real powers, the oil barons and other corporate biggies are happy to keep a low profile and let the Jews take the heat. Compared to the Saudis, who seem to have the Bushies wrapped around their fingers, the Israel Lobby isn't even a mosquito, but the Saudis keep a low profile because they don't need to boast. Not even Molly, with her consistently acute perception, has touched on that. It's only the insiders who see the phenomenon in action and understand it.

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Choose any recent event where some person involved believed that race was a factor in that event. If that person points this out, very soon a screeching conservative will swoop in to accuse that person of "playing the race card."

No sooner did Molly Ivins' words hit the newspapers and blogosphere than the people who are determined to see Israel as THE symbol of Jewish victimhood began accusing Ivins' of being anti-semitic (the very subject of her column, but irony is lost on these types of people).

So what IS the vernacular equivalent for immediately accusing any critic of the Isreal Lobby of being anti-semitic? How about "playing the victim card"?

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Yes - the US special relationships with Saudia Arabia and Israel are pretty curious. These are religious states, by the way, which is not compatible with democratic notions.

I just re-read all of Dana Priests reporting on 'black sites' in Europe; the most interesting fact is that the French intelligence agencies were fully cooperating with the CIA while the French were being lambasted by US politicians and FOX news. Of course the French had those pre-existing oil contracts with Saddam, and were angling for a post-war share in the booty... reminiscent of British-US WWI secret accords on post-war oil contracts.

What's the relationship? We live, by and large, in a propaganda state, where glimmers of factual information sneak through now and then. Recall Kissinger's moment of honesty: "I only watch the news to see what the American people are being fed that day." What does this have to do with Israel and Saudi Arabia? Both are US client states with limited ability to resist US wishes.

The real local questions for Israel/Palestine are simple: who controls the land, the oil and the water? Hamas and Likud simply polarize the issue around issues of personal politics and factional dominance.

Geopolitically, the question is how does the US exert influence on the MidEast? Covertly through the client states, Israel and Saudi Arabia. Why the geopolitical interest? Umm.. world's biggest oil reserves. Keep in mind that Hitler's central goal was capture of these reserves using a two-pronged attack through North Africa and southern Russia. Hitler's failure to do this was due to a concentrated Allied assault on fuel supply lines.

The notion that the Israeli Lobby somehow works against US government and business interests is pretty ludicrous. They work for those interests! In the mafia, the Don doesn't get his own hands dirty; he relies on his lieutenants... and makes sure that nothing gets back to him. Translation: lieutenant = client state.

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Molly has found a good tone with which to appoach this subject. Another interesting article can be found at Common Dreams from The Nation "Ferment Over 'The Israel Lobby'."

Among other things it makes a point about those liberals who are practically OCD when it comes to corpoaratism:

"[...] One problem with this argument is that in insisting on the primacy of corporate decision-making, it diminishes the realm of political culture and shows a real dullness about how ideas percolate in Washington. Think tanks, the idea factories that help produce policy, used to have a firmly WASPish character. But as Walt and Mearsheimer show, hawkishly pro-Israel forces have established a "commanding presence" at such organizations over much of the spectrum, from the Brookings Institution in the center to the American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation on the right. After Bush's 2000 victory, Dick Cheney made sure that his neoconservative friends were posted throughout the Administration, and after 9/11 their militaristic ideas swept the government like a fever. In a fearful time, their utter distrust of Arab and Muslim culture seemed to the Bushies to explain the world. "You have an alliance between neocons and aggressive nationalists that goes back thirty years. Their ideas have bled into one another," says Jim Lobe of Inter Press Service. "And neoconservatives put Israel at the absolute center of their worldview." One of the tenets of neocon belief was that the road to peace in Israel/Palestine led through Baghdad: Give Israel a greater sense of security and you can solve the Palestinian issue later. That has been the government policy.

Lieven says, "It's self-evidently true that other interests and ambitions are involved in the war with Iraq.... Oil is very much--imperial ambitions are very much there." But, he adds, "it is crazy to suggest on the one hand that the neoconservatives had a great influence on the Bush Administration and to say that it didn't play out in terms of a hard interest for Israel. If you think the neocons were not running the whole show but had a definite impact, then you can't possibly suggest that Israeli interests were not involved."

The liberal intelligentsia have failed in their responsibility on specifically this question. Because they maintain a nostalgic view of the Establishment as a Christian stronghold in which pro-Israel Jews have limited power, or because they like to make George Bush and the Christian end-timers and the oilmen the only bad guys in a debacle, or because they are afraid of pogroms resulting from talking about Jewish power, they have peeled away from addressing the neocons' Israel-centered view of foreign relations. [...]"

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If you people with that tired old "I'm not against the Jews, I'm just against Israel," nonsense would just listen to yourselves for a moment...you'd see that it's just a tired old refrain, and, if you did a little soul searching, you'd find a little old fashioned anti-Semitism in you, after all.

I'm sure that you'd be fine to sit down and have a beer with. But...anti-Semitism lurks in there in you on some level all the same. That's not to say that Israel isn't above criticism...what country isn't? But, at the same time, don't you think you champions of "Palestinian rights" ought to think about why it is that you're so motivated to even comment in this blog the way you do? Don't you think, that with all the genuine hatred and injustices in so many places throughout the world, from China in the way it treats Tibet, to Russia in the way it treats Chechnya, to Sudan with its literal genocide in Darfur, to...well, you get the picture...you're spending a little too much time thinking about tine Israel, which, if it were inclined to, could kill thousands and thousands of Palestinians instead of inventing missles that go through living room windows to kill a single person who's responsible for terrorism in its cities?

Don't you think that instead of so enthusiastically criticising another real democracy with Western values...whether you agree with it's politics or not....you're spending a little too much time criticising another Western democracy...that just happens to be a Jewish one? No one's saying anyone should agree with everything Israel does...but you people....you're just hiding behind your purported feelings about Israel. Think about it and be honest with yourselves...if you can. I doubt that you can, but try it.

There are more horrible things going on in the world...huge numbers of people losing their lives and limbs every single day. It is immeasurably worse than Israel making border crossings inconvenient for some people to protect itself. You people have the audacity to whine about Israel and say and do nothing about those horrors. It's a good thing that Israel exists...and is strong...or otherwise a lot of Jewish people would have to be beholden to people like you...think about it.

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Nothing has changed and nothing will ever change. Things will work themselves out one way or another. Tyrants fall and tyrants rise. Liberty is just another word for freedom, freedom for the mighty to exploit the weak. Open your eyes, see where your self interest lies. As for the Holocaust, that's a card that is being played far too often and is loosing it's impact on the collective conscience of humanity. Iraq and the outcome of this venture is desensitising the American consience to a dangerous circle the wagons level. Both the Russians and the Chinese have been patient in this matter as we attempt to find a new bad guy (Iran) to rattle our sabers at. However, they are well aware of the collective lack of political will that currently restrains us from drawing the saber. Having said that, we should never underestimate the importance of the state of Israel in terms of our own national security. History will provide us with enough evidence to demonstrate the legitimacy of Israel, this is not a debate, this is a fact. It was a mistake to invade Iraq. They were well contained and posed little threat to anyone. It was very short sighted and an emotional gamble that is turning out to be very costly. The middle east has always been unstable. It's a one trick pony and instability is it's one trick. The only thing that we are accomplishing by our occupation is, that we are feeding the pony. We need to get over this petty bickering and name calling and brace ourselves for the real fight, one in which we'll find Isael to be our most loyal ally.

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First of all, those critical of Israel don't have a clue as to the real history of the Middle East. It's obvious that you and your ilk have bought into the Muslim lies hook, line, and sinker.
You need to thank your lucky stars that we have an ally like Israel in a region filled with our sworn enemies who hate us NOT because of Israel but because of what we represent.

The Muslim attack on 9/11 had absolutely nothing to do with our support of Israel, and if you would do just a little research, you would learn that for the past 1,400 years, Muslims have been bent on world domination, and their imperialism and bloody occupation stretched from Indonesia to Spain. If it were not for the Crusades, most of Europe would now be under a Taliban-like government.

Go read about the Ottoman Empire!

The land of Israel was stolen from them by the Romans and then by the Muslims. THERE IS NO ISRAELI OCCUPATION, BUT THERE IS AN ARAB OCCUPATION OF ISRAELI LAND. There has never been any country named Palestine, either. It has always been Israel, even when the Romans renamed it Syria-Palestina.

The aid we give to Israel mostly amounts to loans that Israel does, in fact, repay, and for all of the Israeli products that all of the Muslim world refuses to buy. Meanwhile, we have given $billions to our real Middle Eastern enemies like Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, Libya, and, yes, even Hamas that we will never see again nor ever get anything in return except more hatred.

There can never be an honest discussion of Israel because the ones who insist on calling for "discussions" are all anti-Israel! Molly Ivins comments did nothing but reinforce that undisputable fact. You will never hear Ivins calling for a "discussion" of our support for Muslim terrorist supporters.

If anything, we do not give enough aid to Israel as it is, because her economy is suffering thanks to our State department's misguided policies of forcing her to give up its land to people who want her "wiped off the map," forcing her to open her gates to known terrorist areas, and not forcing other Arab countries to trade with Israel.

Whatever happened to our commitment to free trade?

Israel is not committing acts of terrorism against the West, is not seeking to flood this country with illegal immigrants, is not seeking world domination, and IS the only ally in the world that we can fully trust.

And to the anti-Semites who cite the USS Libery incident that happened over 30 years ago, or the Jonathan Pollard incident almost as long ago, you are fooling none but yourself. First, for thinking that you can use them as some sort of twisted moral equivalence to compare Jews with Arabs terrorists, and second, to talk about them as if you know the details (which you don't).

Our continued existence depends on Israel's continued existence, and being able to separate our frfiends from our enemies!

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Israel is an apartheid state guilty of widescale human rights atrocities. They are a brutal and selfish people (meaning Israelites, not "The Jews") who have sucked up every single dollar, natural resource, and acre in the region, all at the peril and expense of the Palestinians, who live in destitute poverty in "shanty" towns under a military occupation. Israel should be judged on their behavior since their (still) illegal formation in 1949, which includes 5 wars of aggression and a 40 year illegal occupation of Palestine. Plus, they have an illlegal and undocumented nuclear weapons program with over 200 warheads, and here we are squawking about hitting Iran for warheads they don;t even have yet.

Israel is the South Africa of the 21st Century, and they should be held accountable on the world stage. And this shreiking Cassandra "You're an anti-Semite if you question us" bullshit Jews foist on the rest of the world, particularly Americans, is simply unforgiveable. Worse genocides than the Holocaust have happened in history, and none of those peoples have risen to the heights of power and influence that Israel has.

If it was any other nation, they'd probably be invaded and occupied by the US by now, if not economically destroyed like we did to Argentina, Mexico, Russia, Poland, the Asian Tiger, etc, etc.

But no...Israel gets 13 Billion a year from us instead.

Supporters call Israel our ally. Let me ask them one question? What has Israel ever done for the US? Historically, all they have done is to drag us into their battles, and imperil our safety and security.

With friends like them. who needs enemies?

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That said, I'm not an anti-semite, anti-Zionist, or anti-any group of people you want to name! I'm a human being in a world run by human beings and Isreal has made their own bed and now they should be left alone to sleep in it! I lost friends on the USS Liberty! Good men who were trying to fulfill their prime objective! They weren't there to kill anyone! They were there to monitor comunications between Isreali comanders and troops on the ground. They had been ASKED to be there by the Isreali government as observers! When the Isreali High Comand decided they heard what they shouldn't have, they tageted the ship and even targeted the lifeboats! Nothing was ever done and these brave sailors' deaths were swept under the rug because The United States hadn't the balls to stand up against a monster of our own making!

I'm not saying to attack Isreal! I'm not saying to cut off ties! What I'm saying is that we should treat Isreal like any other country who has deliberatly targetted US military personel, and demand reparations be made and take steps before the UN Security Council to address these greivances! The famillies of these brave sailors deserve no less! And I'm no anti-Semite for expecting it!

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Laredo said: "It's a semantic issue: One is anti-Nazi, not anti-German. Those Germans who opposed Hitler were not self-hating Germans, they were true patriots. " I could not agree more, however his conclusion that those who want to hand over their Country in Israel are patriots too is totally wrong. The facts here are that the there never has been a "palestinian" people, that these refugues from various arabic countries are not even originated from Israel nor do they have a language nor history or flag other then the one they made up after invading Israel. Their sole purpose is to spread hate against jews (antisemitism) and to terrorize the innocent in an effort to steal Israel from its rightful owners the Israeli people. Obviously those Germans opposing Hitler have more incommon with those Arabs ("palestinians") who prefer democracy under a Jewish government over a terrorist dictatorship lead by Hamas or Al-Aqsa.

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When I posted comments about Molly's essay/column on the professors from Harvard my thinking then and now was it's great to have dialogue on our relationship with Israel and how it impacts Middle East (M.E.) foreign policymaking. I did not make any comment on the professors' paper, and believe it will rise or fall on its own merits.

Again, I thank those who commented on my first Post, and wonder if they might answer the question about making the Middle East a "nuclear-free" region. Do you think its in the best interest of the U.S. to insist there be no country in the M.E. with nuclear weapons? If the U.S. follows this logical step, would it influence the Iranian government to forego its nuclear weapons program?

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