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Readers Write: Immigration Debate

By Maria Luisa Tucker, AlterNet. Posted April 24, 2006.


Many readers passionately disagreed with AlterNet's coverage of the pro-immigrant rallies. Here, their voices are heard.

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Over the last few weeks I have written a series of pieces advocating compassionate immigration reform that includes earned citizenship for this country's 11 million to 12 million undocumented immigrants. The first article, "Sí, Se Puede!" described the enthusiasm of the burgeoning movement for immigrants' rights. "Immigration Debate Creates Strange Bedfellows" looked at the strange political alliances created by the fracas, and finally, "Defining the Melting Pot" recounted the huge April 10 rally in New York.

The passion of the debate following these articles took me by surprise. Immigration had obviously struck a nerve with readers, inspiring responses to all three articles that were full of both venom and vigor. Illegal immigration quickly became one of the most hotly debated topics on AlterNet's pages and inspired everything from thoughts on economic history and international policy to conspiracy theories, accusations of racism and name-calling.

The majority of commentators voiced opposition to legalization for undocumented immigrants, and scolded me personally and AlterNet at large for supporting such a proposition. Metahope asked, "Alternet, why are you supporting illegal immigrants rights over the rights of American citizens?" Metahope, like many others, viewed undocumented immigrants as a major threat, saying that "illegal immigrant scabs are destroying unions in Brooklyn, N.Y., and all over the United States They work hard at undermining our economic security … They don't deserve our largesse … They are lower than saboteurs, they are infestations."

Many agreed, though in less harsh terms, that illegal immigration is a threat to blue-collar citizens. Clocksmith wrote, "I am tired of hearing that illegal immigrants do the jobs that Americans won't do. If these jobs paid a fair and decent wage, Americans would do them." Clocksmith summed up the most consistent argument against illegal immigration (and immigration in general) -- the belief that immigrants "keep wages depressed for the rest of us" and make life more difficult for American workers. Other readers armed themselves with sarcasm to get that point across. Zooeyhall penned an imaginary letter to Joe Sixpack, the all-American citizen who is competing for jobs with legal and illegal immigrants:

Dear Joe:

Really sorry to hear you lost that programming job to that H1B visa guy from India. But hey, every cloud has a silver lining. At least you know that you're doing your part to make America a truly multicultural Nirvana. Also sorry to hear that your son Joey won't be working that summer job this year with that lawn care company. It would really have helped out in your situtation. But just remember: Those Guatemalan immigrants the company hired are part of the poor oppressed masses, and it is our duty to welcome them with open arms! And we all know that Joey is part of the pampered white lower middle class …

The resentment was palpable in many readers' comments -- many accused pro-immigrant readers of being elitist. In turn, pro-immigrant readers accused those who disagreed of xenophobia and racism.

When Gma1 complained that he "heard one of the marchers for illegal immigrants speaking in Mexican" on CNN and accused immigrants of refusing to assimilate, pro-immigrant readers were quick to chastise and ridicule the comment. "Mexican people speak Spanish," responded Merly. "I can't think of anything more ignorant than not knowing that the people in the country next to you speak SPANISH."

Another reader's argument against immigration was swathed in a much thicker layer of prejudice. This reader, who identified herself only as gb, emailed me with this rationale for her anti-immigrant stance:

"I had a very bad experience with an illegal Mexican that lived across the street from me. He stole, lied, beat his wife or girlfriend, didn't work, laid around, and she shoveled the snow on the drive. One day in the eight years he lived here, I saw him mowing the lawn. I couldn't believe it!! I TOOK A PICTURE!!!!

My 80-year-old aunt had some Mexicans paint her house. My husband and I had to do it over. When we got to her house, these people had varnished over all the dirt on the woodwork. Never cleaning anything off. We had to take off all the varnish and do it over. So don't tell me how hard these people work.They do as little as possible."

Those against immigration weren't the only ones accused of racism, though. Medstudgeek felt that citizens who support illegal immigrants were insensitive to the repercussions on black American workers: "Notice that civil rights *leaders* are supporting immigration while ordinary blacks frequently oppose it. Why? Because, for sociological reasons, young black men always go to the bottom of the employment pile. Immigrants take spots ahead of them. The only way to help black people out of poverty is to create a scarcity of labor."

Similarly, Feller wrote, " racism has nothing to do with the majority of players in this game. It's money. MONEY. Bucks. The practical effect of a successful Latino immigrant movement will be additional misery for young African-Americans. Similarly for many poor white high school and college dropouts."


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Maria Luisa Tucker is an AlterNet staff writer.

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If you're here illegally, you don't deserve citizenship
Posted by: thinkverybig on Apr 24, 2006 1:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's my take on it. If you came here illegally, you shouldn't be allowed a chance to become a citizen. How would you like it if someone broke into your house and then demanded to stay.

The undocumented workers or illegal immigrants are taking jobs from Americans and depressing our wages which in turn only hurts Americans and that must stop.

If they are going to protest, protest the Mexican Government not ours.


We must change. A REVOLUTION is needed in this country and needed now.

I am in the process of creating a website by the name of "WeMustChange.org" and I'm looking for volunteers who might be interested in coming aboard and helping me get this concept off of the ground. I need a website designer, and some talented and creative people who are willing to put forth an effort to make a difference in this world. I am presently pondering websites formats etc. Please email ideas to david@thinkverybig.com

One thing I do want to address is oppression world wide. I need more ideas and view points. Let's make "WeMustChange.org" a household name. I need some good people on my team.

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North American "community" to follow European Union
Posted by: No Globalization without Representation on Apr 24, 2006 2:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What's really unfortunate about the illegal immigration debate is that American citizens who advocate open borders and side with illegal aliens don't understand the geopolitical push for the elimination of all borders in order to maximize and grow profit margins for transnational corporations. Allowing illegal immigration to go on for decades as it has in the U.S., quietly allows regional integration to take place before anyone can discuss it let alone resist the dissolution of U.S. sovereignty. There is plenty of documentation on and offline where Globalist are calling to regionalize groups of countries into integrated trade blocs or regions. In a report, A Fair Globalization: Creating Opportunities for All, by the U.N's International Labor Organization, it's stated, "Countries are better able to manage the social and economic challenges of globalization by working together. That calls for better integration of social and economic policies in the process of regional integration, as has been the aim in the European Union (EU), the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and the Southern Cone Common Market (Mercosur), among others." (p. 14)

If you think it's just the U.N., then have a look at a proposal on the U.S. Embassy's website in Canada called Building a North American Community. Here former government officials and corporate leaders call for a "common security perimeter" for the U.S., Canada and Mexico by 2010 where people from all three countries would be able to move freely with the "perimeter". Other outrageous recommendations include retraining our public school teachers to instill a "North American identity". See page 30, where it says "Develop teacher exchange and training programs for elementary and secondary school teachers. This would assist in removing language barriers and give some students a greater sense of a North American identity. Greater efforts should also be made to recruit Mexican language teachers to teach Spanish in the United States and Canada."

This proposal is actually mild compared to others that call for a North American police force ("modeled after Europol"), N.A. Parliament (to “raise the sensitivity of American Congressmen”), N.A. passports, N.A. Customs & Immigration agents, N.A. Development Fund, etc.
A North American Community
A Mexican Vision for North Amercia

The U.N.'s International Trade Organization must be proud of our Senate for trying to link border enforcement to a guest-worker-amnesty because in A Fair Globalization: Creating Opportunities for All, it states, "A fairer framework for the movement of people was essential, and in the European regional dialogue it was argued that “any policy of restriction should be linked to a policy
of trade liberalization and development cooperation”." (page 14)

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Immigration
Posted by: Otto126 on Apr 24, 2006 3:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see that you in the US have similar discussions over immigration like we in Europe. It is the US-position to promote what is called "Globalization" all over the world so wages in the developed countries inevitably will have to go down on a Third-World Level.

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Whatever it is,
Posted by: Longdream on Apr 24, 2006 4:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it had better be enforceable.

And no call for jail-time, no fence, no hyped-up new police force or agency, and no system of guilt-by-association or blackmail will make that so.

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We'll be back here in a few years
Posted by: YogiBear on Apr 24, 2006 5:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whatever the solution may be, any action that allows a large number of undocumented illimgrants to become legal, had better be coupled with some serious border and/or employment reform, because they're not going to stop sneaking over until economic conditions here are as bad as they are there. So, if y'all don't want to be debating this in another 5 to 10 years, with a whole new crop of illegals living here, back to square 1, we actually need to think about what we can do to stop the inrush.

Enforcing our labor laws would be the best policy, but it's one that neither party will embrace, so increased border patrol is all I can think of. I think massive deportations will cause more trouble than they're worth, especially since it will break up families, with kids being able to stay here. Perhaps we could threaten deportation for any of those who fail to complete the requirements for the path to citizenship proposal.

Very few people here are anti-immigrant, and this "Readers Write" is the first to acknowledge that. I'd like to also turn the tables and ask for those who are against further enforcment: Do you favor open bordrs? If so, can you tell us how that would work without weakening the working class?

If you're not in favor of open borders, exactly what do you want done about the problem of future illegal immigration. Do you not want to stem the future flow? If you do, how do you propose to do it? Do you believe the story that it's going to slow down anyways? If so why?

The people throwing terms of racism and xenophobia around have answered very few, if any of these types of questions. Illegal immigration is not stagnating. If we grant any type of amnesty or even announce a possible path to citizenship, it will undoubtably create a new rush for the border by those still living in desperation in Mexico and further south. Do the Si se puede fans have any answers about what to do for the future to keep us from ending up right back where we started?

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We've Gotta Keep America PURE!!!!
Posted by: MarcGarvey on Apr 24, 2006 5:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one will say it, but that's at the bottom of the anti-immigration folks. And I'm not trying to get you all to say it.

This speaks to everybody else that might actually be believing the other reasons being given.
Economy
National Security...etc

This is about keeping the old US of A pure!!

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Citizenship vs Illegality
Posted by: jbetterl on Apr 24, 2006 6:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All over the world, poor people are migrating in droves to rich countries, legally and illegally. They can not be stopped. Once you comprehend that, citizenship becomes a way to impose obligations upon them. Continued illegality merely empowers the people who brought them here and service them for a fee. We learned with the Prohibition Amendment that it was merely a decision to let the mob regulate the liquor business rather than an elected government.

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» RE: Citizenship vs Illegality Posted by: VisionQuest
» RE: Citizenship vs Illegality Posted by: jbetterl
» RE: Citizenship vs Illegality Posted by: VisionQuest
» RE: Citizenship vs Illegality Posted by: jbetterl
» RE: Citizenship vs Illegality Posted by: VisionQuest
» RE: Citizenship vs Illegality Posted by: jbetterl
» RE: Citizenship vs Illegality Posted by: jbetterl
Understand the root causes of the "immigration" problem.
Posted by: jcrw on Apr 24, 2006 6:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The term "globalization" must always be prefaced by the term "capitalist" to keep in mind who is the beneficiary. The NAFTA and CAFTA treaties have generally brought economic devastation to alredy impoverished countries. The multi-national corporations are the only beneficiaries.
Mexican peasant farmers (1 million!) are unable to "compete" against US subsidized corn dumped into Mexico, leave their subsistence farm, move to the cities, and then head north.

The more fundamental reality for U.S. working people:
US capitalism has been on a steady decline for last 30 years. Manufacturing has moved to China, steel production to Korea, etc. Automobile, Airline, industries are collapsing. Wall street has collapsed due to massive fraud. Pensions are being dumped. The unending Bush wars are bankrupting essential social services such as health care, schools, housing assistance, etc.

"Living Wage" jobs are almost impossible to find, with workers having to work two jobs, work overtime, both spouses have to work, etc. The 40 hour work week, with one parent able to provide enough income for a family are long gone. No wonder established working people are threatened by massive immigration of impoverished people!

The Bush regime, Project for a New American Century, is bankrupting the economy, killing millions of people for oil, and impoverishing everyone but the top 5% Exxon capitalists. And now we are to remain passive as the Bush gang are to destroy Iran with nuclear war???!!

Everything the Bush gang does exacerbates global warming, unwilling to stop polluters as it may affect profits of the polluters.

To survive we must have a fundamental change in the economic system. Run-amok capitalism designed to profit the few must be phased out! We need a system of democratic economics designed to fulfill the universal essential needs of working people.

Try reading the excellent news analysis at www.wsws.org World Socialist Web Site. Thanks.

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Anti Immigrants need to go to College
Posted by: sugamretniw on Apr 24, 2006 6:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I you're worried that an illegal immigrant will take your job then you have been out-competed, period. You should have never assumed that you were entitled to your job and should have always been trying to get more education. Pursue a career that has a stronger tolerance to uneducated immigrants simply taking it from you. If you're worried about your children then make sure they get advanced degrees, i.e. accounting + cpa, electrical engineering + mba. It's getting sickening to hear everyone complaining about something they obviously cannot stop. Illegal immigration supports big and small businesses and they control America so stop whining and figure out a way to compete. That should be the word of the 21st century: Competition. America out-competed the rest of the world for their resources for hundreds of years (by hook and crook) and now the rest of the world is taking it back one low paying job at-a-time. If you're the slowest runner in the race then you're the loser. No one wants to hear you complain about how some faster Indian runner got into the race illegally. Of course the competition organizers know that but the Indian runner brings in the fans which raises ticket revenue and that's all that matters. Besides, here's the silver lining, these Mexican immigrants won't be taking your jobs for very long because they are going to make sure their children go to college and get advanced degrees so you won't be able to complain about someone taking your job: you or your children will have never have had it to begin with. And please, save your vitriol for someone who cares, I couldn't care less if I was your state's representative in Congress.

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» Life will NOT get better Posted by: medstudgeek
» I disagree Posted by: AmeriPole
» COLLEGE IS NOT FOR EVERYONE! Posted by: realmuzik
» My apologies for too many caps Posted by: realmuzik
» You are so deeply wrong Posted by: Bobsays
Because of 11SEP01
Posted by: CovertRage on Apr 24, 2006 7:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All of this is supposedly contrived to protect us from another September 11th incident and to subsequently preserve our national Christian virtue. Yeah, right. That is all a huge pile of tripe. We are not a Christain nation. Else, we would know that the earth is the Lord's, and the migration of those made in His image from from impoverished places to wealthy places is encouraged scripturally. What are these so-called Christians doing with the laws of GOD that mandate that the strong bear the infirmities of the weak? The Holy Writ says that we should be very mindful of our treatment of strangers, as we often entertain angels unaware. Real American Christians know we are that city of refuge where a stranger or alien can find rest and justice. But, no, this is America, land of the intolerantly prejudiced xenophobes, and the home of imperialists, 5 percent of whom run the world with no regard for the poor or less fortunate. To disagree with this lot is unpatriotic in a land whose national faith is that aspiration to become members of this exclusive godhead.

This brings me to 9/11, the greatest act of synthetic terrorism of this country the planet has ever known. The World Trade Center would still be standing in tact today if insurance companies never existed. That complex was razed for the money insurance guaranteed the new owner. The photgraphs of Middle Eastern men the government agencies flooded us with could have been student ID photoes from any local college year book. We will never know. Our eyes have not decived us, however. 9/11 was a professional demolition job that is now thrown in our faces to justify every abuse and injustice this administration can pile into its eight years of systemic terror of the poor by the rich the world over.

We need to admit that the immigrant tyrants behind 9/11 were European Americans, not Mexicans, not Chileans, not Venuelans, not Dominicans, not Cubans, not Haitians, not Africans, not Asians - EUROPEAN IMPERIALISTS, that true minority of the planetary dwellers who manipulate the facts to sustain thier position on top of the rest of us. We all need to wake up. People who leave a barren land for an oasis with fresh water and fruit trees are not criminals, but hungry and thirsty. A real Christian nation realizes that we should not prevent others from eating and drinking any more than we should needlessly cut thier throats.

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» RE: Because of 11SEP01 Posted by: gar
» RE: Because of 11SEP01 Posted by: CovertRage
» RE: Because of 11SEP01 Posted by: mac5gtg
» RE: Because of 11SEP01 Posted by: gar
They will stop coming if we do the right thing
Posted by: RichardT on Apr 24, 2006 7:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I am all for legal immigration which is controlled so that advancing the interests of the USA become the prime objective, I strongly oppose illegal immigration which is depressing wages and overwhelming our health care and education infrastructures.

The solution is simple. All we need to do is stop hiring illegal immigrants. If do this they will go home on their own.

To this end we should severely penalize those employers that break the laws, and also anyone who shelters these “illegal’s”. It’s really not that complicated.

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Marching to freedom
Posted by: Roverton on Apr 24, 2006 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JOIN THE ARMY
BECOME A CITIZEN
JOIN THE ARMY
BECOME A CITIZEN
JOIN THE ARMY
BECOME A CITIZEN
JOIN THE ARMY
BECOME A CITIZEN...

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» RE: Marching to freedom Posted by: CovertRage
» RE: Marching to freedom Posted by: mac5gtg
Finally
Posted by: russellcole38 on Apr 24, 2006 7:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is nice to acknowledge that there are a diversity of standpoints emanating from the political Left. I think that the debate should now address the current deportation of undocumented workers, who are being paraded in front of the media, shackled in handcuffs and leg-irons. I do not think that anybody who reads this publication, who is opposed to illegal immigration, wanted this to occur. What needs to be done is an enforcement of the border, or, perhaps I should say, an establishment of a border between the US and Mexico. Grant the people already here a path to citizenship. However, this flood of unskilled labor needs to be stopped. It is hurting the working-classes and it is draining societal resources that are already in short supply.
Russell

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» RE: Finally Posted by: gar
Thank you, Ms. Tucker
Posted by: zooeyhall on Apr 24, 2006 8:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you, Ms. Tucker, for at least not dismissing out-of-hand the valid economic concerns of the middle/lower class on illegal immigration. I do give you credit for that, even if you may not agree with the anti-illegal immigration viewpoints expressed on the article.

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AMERICANS VIOLATE THE LAW AND CALL “THEM” ILLEGAL? ©
Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Apr 24, 2006 8:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Maria Luisa Tucker . . .

I am so dismayed by the “American” response to immigration. I believe that Americans forget how their ancestors arrived in the United States. I believe most do not know the details. People prefer to believe that their lives and families are pure; that they are descendents of the crème. Few citizens of this country actually know their history. People in the USA seem to focus on differences and ignore similarities. It is all so sad to me.

I have written much on this topic. I shared statistics and offered the fact that homeowners are the most frequent law-offenders. The average homeowner hires close to fifty percent of day laborers, those here without documentation.

I have addressed the success and stability of Mexican migrants. I quoted from Pew Charitable Trust studies. Still, I experience that even the most proud among the left-winged liberals is filled with fear, disdain, and is willing to discriminate against those he or she thinks “illegal!”

I offer links to some of my missives here in hopes that reading will promote reflection and possibly an evolution. One can dream, as did our great-grandparents and the current émigrés.

IMMIGRATION. INTERTWINING SELF-INTERESTS AND IGNORING INTERDEPENDENCE ©
AMERICANS VIOLATE THE LAW AND CALL “THEM” ILLEGAL? ©
IMMIGRATION ISSUE . . . PROBLEM AND PLAN ©
IMMIGRATION ISSUES, “WHEN IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH?” ©
THE ISSUE OF IMMIGRATION, MEXICAN MIGRANTS ©

It is the giving that makes us what [who] we are. - Ian Anderson. Jethro Tull . . . Betsy L. Angert
Betsy L. Angert Be-Think

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» Justice for all... Posted by: buffeliscious
IMMIGRATION SHOULD BE A TWO-WAY STREET
Posted by: riley on Apr 24, 2006 8:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My husband and I, nearing retirement, have actually been studying retiring in Mexico, near the Guadalajara area. Why? There is a large English-speaking enclave there, the medical care is good and cheap, property taxes are nearly non-existent, prices are cheap in comparison to stateside. However, neither of us could work in Mexico at all unless we were mega-rich and able to establish a corporation that hired Mexican citizens. There could be a five-year FM3 visa that would allow working (if one could find a job). One problem is that Medicare does not apply outside the US. However, if one could buy in before age 65, the Mexican healthcare thingie could be bought into for about $250 per year apiece. International healthcare is available for about $1500 a year. In other words, by learning a minimum of Spanish, foregoing carrying a gun, the cost of living can be cut in half. Why are we not advocating re-training many of these illegal Mexicans into establishing their own businesses providing LPN services for ex-patriot gringos? Having a live-in LPN could cut the price of nursing homes...particularly if the multinationals could be kept out. I know that's disjointed, but we have a huge crop of gringos ready for retirement. The Central Highlands of Mexico have a very mild climate....no need for heat or air...or at least not for much of it. Why not encourage young Mexicans to learn English so that it can be used to service a south-going retirement generation? SORRY I GOT OFF POINT HERE. I guess my point is that there is an obvious business to be encouraged in Mexico that could relieve healthcare costs in the US and encourage some of the hard-working people of Mexico to stay home.

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» Oh shit dude! Don't chase 'em off yet!! Posted by: Againstthewindwalking
thinking
Posted by: ladyoracle on Apr 24, 2006 8:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have also had a bad experience with Mexican laborers doing a shoddy job. But, I have also seen Guatemalan laborers that did thier jobs well. They could have been poster-children for the prototype of the hardworking immigrant who mails his wages back home.

If illegal immigrants were allowed to stay here, then there would be no deterrent against thier coming, so probably there would be a huge flood of them, and some would end up in the slums, while others would go on to become assets to our country.

We need to remember that each illegal immigrant is an individual. Some are poets and painters, and some are wife batterers and thieves. The problems--capitalism, corporations, unions, blue collar jobs, reasons illegal immigrants leave thier countries in the first place, etc. are also complex.

I don't have an answer, but I think a good answer is going to be more complex than either totally shutting them out, or totally welcoming them.

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» RE: thinking Posted by: gar
» RE: thinking Posted by: mac5gtg
» shoddy work by laborers Posted by: vespasian01
The idiots who authored that tripe were themselves aliens!
Posted by: CovertRage on Apr 24, 2006 9:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's kill that noise. For injustice wrought by 5 percent of the global population upon the remaining 95 percent, some carpetbagging group of imperialists have written rules to be supported by flakey data and biased wizardry. For once, let's look at people as the human beings they are. No person is better than another by any human virtue imaginable or attainable. Just because a few lost Europeans planted their flag here and have nothing but benefitted from living here makes their seed any better than the decendents of those people here when Europeans first arrived. Who naturalized the first warmongers who renamed the land after one its own? They did. Well, fine. The world has lived with that crap for centuries, and now cries out for a change. Everyone wants to eat, drink, dress, and dwell in conditions fit for human habitation. That is not wrong, and should not make a criminal of a man or woman. Let's not hide behind laws created to protect the presumptuous crime of Manefest Destiny of a few. Let's learn from that error, and create a system that facilitates equality of people. Humans are one race of many nations and ethnicities, not a heirarchal strata of many races beholden to any one race.

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pot calling the kettle black
Posted by: kmaripo on Apr 24, 2006 9:06 AM   
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Regardless of one's perspective on the immigration issue, it might be useful for all of us to practice a little humility and compassion here. It wasn't so long ago that white europeans were the immigrants to this continent, raping, pillaging and destroying every indigenous culture they came into contact with. No matter how you slice it, America was built on the backs of slave labor (black, Irish, Chinese.....) and on the graves of the native people who lived here for millenia before we fled our countries of origin in search of riches, religious/political freedom and an opportunity to start a new life. In all fairness to the basic question in this debate, how is what we did different from what the current wave of immigrants is trying to do? With all our supposedly sophisticated political and social agendas, haven't we yet evolved enough to find solutions to this problem without resorting to name-calling and blaming?

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» RE: pot calling the kettle black Posted by: CovertRage
» RE: pot calling the kettle black Posted by: CovertRage
censorship
Posted by: doremi on Apr 24, 2006 9:36 AM   
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One thing this article doesn't address is alternet's censorship & banning of so many readers over this issue. Only certain 'clean' writers need apply, the rest of us are just sent to hell.

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Is NAFTA the problem? If so, let's get rid of it!
Posted by: mysticpal on Apr 24, 2006 9:36 AM   
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For all the hysteria about NAFTA around 1993-94, we hear precious little about what its effects have really been. Why exactly do Mexicans still come here more than ever? NAFTA helped U.S. agribusiness drive down the price of corn in Mexico so it's no longer possible for small farmers to make a living. Ironies: corn is native to Mexico and its genetic diversity depends upon maintaining agriculture there. Also the U.S. usually outsources agriculture to poor countries; here's a case where it happens the other way around!

When entire towns in Mexico no longer have an economic base, the young people naturally move north, at least to the miquiladora zone. Once they're that far, why not try the U.S. - the maquiladora zone is hardly a paradise, although it's full of union-busted factories that have been lost in the U.S. since NAFTA. Quite a vicious circle started by the Clinton Democrats & the anti-Buchanan/Perot GOP. (The latter wing would need renamed now, but there seem to be no Gephardt Democrats left.)

I'll be happy to hear any evidence to the contrary - my point is mainly the lack of news coverage about NAFTA's effects.

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My "plan"
Posted by: Uncle Tupelo on Apr 24, 2006 10:38 AM   
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1. Blanket amnesty (or whatever you want to call it) for all non-criminals
2. Raising (or setting) the minimum wage for all workers in all industries
3. Setting the immigration quotas at a level that reflects anticipated job growth
4. Punishing corporations that hire illegal immigrants with significant fines (and criminal penalties for repeat violators)

I think there was a fifth point, but for the life of me I can't remember it now. Basically, we need to remove the incentives for companies to hire illegals because they're cheaper or less likely to organize or complain about safety, etc.

We also need to be working at improving the living conditions that are sending people here in the first place. Everything else we do is for naught if we don't work on that piece of the puzzle.

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» RE: My "plan" Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: My "plan" Posted by: Uncle Tupelo
» RE: There is no good guy, party-wise Posted by: Uncle Tupelo
» RE: My "plan" Posted by: CovertRage
» RE: My "plan" Posted by: buffeliscious
What? No Comments on the True Solution?
Posted by: Ray S on Apr 24, 2006 10:42 AM   
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The ONLY Solution to the Border Problem is to eliminate the desire to cross the border. Why do they cross the border? The answer to that question is JOBS! The correct approach is to make a stiff penalty for any employer, that escalates with each additional infraction. If there are no jobs, there will be no problem with illegal immigration.

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gramps
Posted by: gramps on Apr 24, 2006 12:17 PM   
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I live in the San Diego area of California and am married to a Mexican wife. We have been married thirty years and I have many freinds and compadre's that are Mexican. California was stolen from Mexico by war. We have Los Angeles, San Francisco, and most of the cities and streets here have Spanish names. The forty niners were illegal immigrants and so were the Texans that occupied what was once Mexico.

Rich Mexicans and Central Americans have no problem immigrating legally - the assault by Lou Dobbs on poor people has stirred up this hornets nest. The problem is a result of globaization. China owns the port of San Francisco and the American automobile industry has suffered as Toyota, Hundai, and other Asian and European manufacturers have built factories here and merged with American corporations.
But there is no hue and cry to reverse the outsourcing of American jobs. If you are going to allow corporations to dominate our government and the rest of the world you are going to have to accept illegal immigration as well. This is a country of immigrants and the words of Emma Lazerus on The Staue of Liberty are going to have to mean what they say. All people of European ancestry who live in The United States are descendents of illegal immigrants who committed genocide against the native peoples.

The big corporations have already moved where the cheap labor and stolen natural resources are. You will never stop a demographic shift of peoples. China alone has one fifth of the world's population.

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