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The Good Guy's Guide to Overthrowing Governments

By G. Pascal Zachary, AlterNet. Posted April 6, 2006.


Just because Bush made a mess of Iraq doesn't mean we should abandon the use of regime change for humanitarian purposes.
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Sitting in a restaurant last week in the Ugandan capital of Kampala, I was introduced to an exile from Zimbabwe.

Zimbabwe was once the breadbasket of Africa because of its fertile farms. Today, there are food shortages. The country's 82-year-old dictator, Robert Mugabe, has systematically wrecked his country's economy and relentlessly repressed his political opponents as part of a maniacal obsession with holding on to power. The country's currency is worthless and inflation is rampant. There is energetic opposition to the government, but Mugabe, who has ruled for 25 years, represses his opponents shamelessly. He clings to power on the strength of his reputation as a guerilla leader who forced an end to white rule in a country once known as Rhodesia (named after British imperialist Cecil Rhodes).

The exile is a professor of African history, a learned man whose mind becomes intensely focused when he hears I am an American. "Why can't you Americans overthrow Mugabe?" he asks. "Why can't you save us from our misery?"

"Well, we could," I say. But I tell him the United States won't lift a finger to save Zimbabwe because, with the Iraq exercise in regime change going so badly, Americans won't easily move to overthrow a foreign government again.

"What a shame," he told me and drifted off into the night, leaving me to nurse a Tusker beer.

As I drank alone, I got to thinking that the exiled professor had a good point. Besides, he wasn't the first person during my foreign travels to pointedly ask me if the United States would invade his country. Many Africans I've met have seriously advocated that the United States take over their school systems, their electricity companies, even their entire governments. Maybe American progressives, while right to insist on an immediate end to the occupation of Iraq by U.S. troops, are otherwise drawing the wrong lesson from President Bush's costly folly. Maybe there is a way to cut our nation's losses in Iraq and invest some of the savings into beneficial regime changes around the world.

Of course, overthrowing any foreign government -- even an awful one -- is inherently fraught. The United States has a long history of engineering the downfall of foreign governments by secretly supporting opponents of those governments. The techniques of regime change were honed by the CIA from the 1950s through the early '70s. Sadly, American-assisted regime changes too often installed far worse characters into power. The most flagrant examples came in Guatemala and Iran in the mid-'50s when talented and patriotic national leaders who wanted to limit American influence over their economies were deposed by American-assisted rebels.

Then in 1973 came the U.S.-orchestrated coup against Chile's elected socialist leader, Salvador Allende. Allende's overthrow exposed the dark side of regime change. In the aftermath of Allende's murder and the coup by Chilean generals, thousands of left-wingers in Chile were tortured and murdered. American complicity was suspected and quickly documented. Coming about the same time as the end of America's doomed war in Vietnam, the Chilean coup was a major factor in prompting the U.S. Congress to place firm limits on CIA-assisted assassinations and American-orchestrated coups anywhere in the world. In the end, these U.S.-led coups spawned a backlash that gave all manner of regime-changing efforts a bad smell.

The attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, revolutionized attitudes toward regime change, ending a generation of prohibitions against toppling foreign governments. That President Bush chose the wrong government to topple, however, should not make progressives abandon the use of regime change for humanitarian purposes.

There are no shortage of governments deserving of removal. Besides Zimbabwe, there is Pakistan, an erstwhile ally of the United States led by former general Pervez Musharraf, who seized power in a military coup and then sought to sanitize himself through sham elections. Musharraf's government tolerates and encourages the worst forms of bias and abuse of women. Rapes go unpunished, and women who resist their fate are routinely sanctioned by courts or murdered with impunity. This same general allowed his country's top nuclear scientist to sell weapons technology to other countries. The secret sales may have pushed Iran closer to completing a nuclear weapon and probably were critical in North Korea getting the bomb. And then, of course, there is Pakistan's protection of al-Qaida, and Osama bin Laden is believed to be hiding in the outer reaches of the country. Musharraf insists he's doing he's all to capture bin Laden, but no one seriously believes that.

The government of Sudan also deserves to go. These Islamic fundamentalists, led by President Omar el-Bashir, have led a vicious counterinsurgency war against black Christians and animists in the western Darfur region of Sudan. Informed observers have charged the government with genocide. The same government once harbored bin Laden and remains a haven for Islamic extremists.

Then there's North Korea, which Bush, in a rare stroke of insight, deemed part of the "axis of evil." North Korea's leader, Kim Jong II, is the son of a national "liberator," who has repeatedly pushed his people to the brink of starvation while terrorizing them into submission.

Is there a "right" way to overthrow a bad regime and install "good guys" in their place? There's certainly no recipe for cleanly overthrowing a government. But several principles provide the basis for an approach:

  • Target only governments that are clearly and relentlessly harming their populations. Don't invoke humanitarian principles to provide cover for settling scores with ideological opponents. Merely opposing American interests is not justification for regime change. Republicans loathe Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez, but he is a nationalist with a strong base of support. So is Fidel Castro, despite his unwillingness to let go of power. Even the government of Iran doesn't meet the test of awfulness required for progressives to endorse regime change.


  • In countries with governments that deserve to be overthrown, look for credible opposition leaders with a strong base of support among ordinary citizens. These leaders need to be clearly rooted in their countries, not highly paid exiles or carpetbaggers like Hamid Karzai and Ahmed Chalabi. In Zimbabwe, genuine opposition leaders are readily identifiable. In Pakistan and North Korea, they are not. That means that new leaders in these countries may come from the same corrupt, brutal clans that are currently in power.


  • Understand that the alternative to tyranny is not necessarily democracy. The most likely replacement for Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, is not a democrat but another military leader with slightly tougher moral backbone. In some cases, a slightly better character is worth the costs of change. That would probably be the case in Sudan, where the el-Bashir government has committed about every possible form of inhumanity against its own people. In the real world, less inhumanity is better than more, so progressives may find themselves backing governments that, while an improvement, remain deeply flawed.


  • Which brings us to the final principle of progressive regime change. Some regimes, however bad they are, must be endured. Look at how the Soviet Union collapsed, done in by its own internal contradictions. No American-led military invasion could ever have toppled the Soviet Union. For progressives, the best approach to a truly awful government may be to isolate that government internationally and then patiently wait for its collapse. In this context, it is worth noting that the sanctions against Iraq, applied by the first Bush administration and then by the Clinton administration, were working and would have ultimately brought about a change in the Iraqi government -- and at far less of a price than a military invasion and occupation.


The case for overthrowing the governments of Zimbabwe, Pakistan, Sudan and North Korea is overwhelming, and the debacle in Iraq makes the justification for regime change in these cases no weaker. Sometimes overthrowing foreign governments can work. In the late 1990s, for instance, the U.S. joined with European allies to liberate the province of Kosovo from its Serbian overlords. The liberation of Kosovo was a victory for humanity, thought it did not provide an easy model for future regime changes. Progressives are right to be concerned over loose talk about overthrowing the governments of other countries -- even awful governments. But in rare instances, those who advocate an overthrow, and follow clear principles, deserve a hearing and perhaps even support.

We should get American troops out of Iraq, the sooner the better. But we might also bring progressive values and fresh, defensible tactics to the task of regime change. In short, either get regime change right or take the option off the table.

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G. Pascal Zachary is the author of "Endless Frontier: Vannevar Bush, Engineer of the American Century."

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Invading Iraq was never going to work
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Apr 6, 2006 12:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So many people saw it as a grab for oil that they were not going to help by not resisting. They also felt that the sanctions were doing a lot of damage. (as the article points out, we could have just waited a bit longer)
A dictatorship like Syria was probably never going to help by sitting back and doing nothing because that's the nature of dictatorships, I guess.

What _I_ want to know is why a spy network was not employed to get Saddam. If everyone's spies were supposedly so hard at work during the cold war, why not renew the industry? (Or did they try and it didn't work?)

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The story of the benevolent hegemony, again and again
Posted by: mick on Apr 6, 2006 1:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here we hear the never-ending story of the benevolent hegemony of the US, again, against all odds. Do you think your aggressive and suppressive nation will ever be able to act out of altruism? That's the bright shine of your school books, full of fairy tales about your own history. Learn the facts about your history: slavery, slaughter of the natives, fraud, robbery, and murder everywhere, at any time.
There are, unfortunately, still some people around in the world who believe the US, but not too many. And they are getting fewer every day. It seems people now remember the facts, don't believe your big words and don't fear your big stick: the nukes by which you threaten to destroy the world in order to save it from any other nation trying to acquire them. But in the end: it was only your nation that used nuclear bombs as weapons of mass destruction. Forgotten?
Mick, old Europe

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» It's just that we're no BETTER. Posted by: AdamSelene40
» So?? Posted by: decembrist
» RE: You said it exactly. Posted by: LOfstedal
» RE: You said it exactly. Posted by: oneMan
» RE: You said it exactly. Posted by: JimTheAnarchist
» RE: Is this satire? Posted by: ccbite
Contradiction
Posted by: bodo on Apr 6, 2006 1:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...it is worth noting that the sanctions against Iraq, applied by the first Bush administration and then by the Clinton administration, were working and would have ultimately brought about a change in the Iraqi government

If i am not mistaken the strongest effect the sanctions had on Iraq was to deprive an already oppressed population of the basic necessities needed to enable a healthy resistance. The sanctions did nothing to seriously undermine or destabilize the centralized power structure, obscenely excessive luxury, or inhumane tyranny of Saddam's regime itself.
The sanctions may have prevented Saddam from consolidating enough power to pose a threat to United States' interests directly, but they did nothing to actively encourage Regime change, that is unless you consider impoverishing and already brutalized population a justified method of instilling motivation.

Besides, Sanctions only work if you control all the possible trading partners. The Burmese Regime, for example, manages just fine trading with China and other countries not in the back pocket of Western Democapitalist forces.

The chemical weapons sold to Saddam to silence the Kurdish uprising (an uprising actively encouraged and then abruptly and traitorously abandoned by the US) are a prime example of where United States' interests truly lay; not in the successful overthrowing of the Regime by the people themselves, but in the carefully and coldly calculated coup de tat which was at the time in the process of being orchestrated to replace Saddam. Replace him not with a populist government truly representative of the Iraqi people, but a new, more pliable regime under the veil of democracy, one which would secure American strategic interests, ie - oil. The sanctions served their purpose in keeping the lid on any true Iraqi resistance until Bush and the American Capitalist Elite could manufacture their own regime change, one under their control, their rules. In other words, sanctions bought the United States the time they needed to secure the oh eye el.

All that being said, there are instances where sanctions have worked in the past i'm sure, aren't there? The only problem is that for sanctions to be effective, the regime in question needs to have a power dependence on the resources being sanctioned, and they can't be able to get those resources from some other state power that’s not playing the same game (Transnational Corporations, Countries, aliens).

As the world develops and new powers gain affluence, which is happening believe it or not, the effect of sanctions become more and more dependent on all the players cooperating.

Unfortunately, the state of things being what they are, international interests as mal-aligned as they are, leaders and profit juggernauts being as gluttonous and/or fundamentalist as they are, cooperation seems to be about the last thing on anybody's mind, and the first thing whited out of any formerly freedom oriented country's constitution.

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» RE: Contradiction Posted by: hms2004
» RE: Contradiction Posted by: bodo
Idealism or naivety?
Posted by: Far Sight on Apr 6, 2006 3:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Overthrowing evil regimes and doing our utmost to raise something better? Nice idea, but unlikely.

I have to question whether we have the moral and political will to make such changes.

A brief look at history - and an even briefer look at current governments - puts the question to that. When there is a chocie between a government that is good to its people and a government that is good to us we have a habit of choosing the latter. We're quite happy to hold our noses and extend the hand of friendship to just about anyone so long as they give us a nod of respect and cooperation (Pakistan, Uzbekistan and Saudi Arabia are a few examples that come to mind). If Mugabe was starving and oppressing his people AND playing nice with us we'd never crack our teeth about him.

Even assuming we suddenly develop a collective conscience, you then have to look at capability. How often do we blunder happily into a situation without considering the actual people of the nation? We assume, we ignore the local culture, we try to shoe horn what works for us onto their country anjd cut off the bits that don't fit and every day our people likely deal a hundred insults without even realising it. Can we nation build? Do we actually know how?

And even if we gain this skill there is the additional problem of reputation. If our troops landed in Zimbabe and cried freedom would we be believed? We're not the only ones who can read history books, the people we are 'liberating' know what has happened before. Will they trust us? I wouldn't if I were them. Before we do any kind of "positive regime change" I think we would actually have to try and repair our standing in the world to something that IS positive.

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» RE: Idealism or naivety? Posted by: greggzachary
» RE: Idealism or naivety? Posted by: bodo
» RE: Idealism or naivety? Posted by: davewuxi
» RE: Idealism or naivety? Posted by: gazooks
the best target
Posted by: rsaxto on Apr 6, 2006 3:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we are to target only governments that clearly and relentlessly harm their populations then the first government that needs to be targeted is the Cheney/Bush regime. IMPEACH CHENEY/BUSH.

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» RE: the best target Posted by: LOfstedal
Regime change begins at home
Posted by: Paul, London on Apr 6, 2006 3:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You don't have to look far for 'failed states that could do with a good dose of regime change. In fact, no further than Washington and London. Both regimes have failed on several fronts. Instead of peace, we have a 'war on terrorism' which is actually a war on people's rights at home. While the ecological crisis threatens to overwhelm us, Washington and London tell us that market forces/technology will do the trick. So failure on that front too. Regime change should begin at home!

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» RE: egime change begins at home Posted by: greggzachary
Lost trust cost lives...
Posted by: NIKUZAI on Apr 6, 2006 3:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A lot of people are rightly preoccupied with the behaviour of the Bush administration (and previous administrations) in US foreign policy. Iraq has raised a lot of questions to which the answers are deeply unpleasant.

However, I would argue that these people have become stubborn in their opposition if they argue against even the idea of humanitarian intervention. Iraq has disgraced the case for humanitarian intervention which performed relatively successfully in Kosovo and Sierra Leone.

I agree with people's concern about trust in the real intentions of the US/UK in foreign policy. Are we to become so preoccupied with these concerns that we ignore the pleas for help from Zimbabwe? Don't trash humanitarian intervention out of genuine concerns about trust - a balance needs to be struck.

Nick (neither old or new europe)

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» RE: Lost trust cost lives... Posted by: Redviper
» RE: Lost trust cost lives... Posted by: blueneck
» RE:stubborn in their opposition Posted by: Peter Boyd
Who are you to decide about others?
Posted by: farhada on Apr 6, 2006 3:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God,
This is sickening; who do you think you are? How on earth can you sit in your coffee shop, 10 thousands miles away from another country and decide to get rid of other governments?

Change of regime is the work of the people who live in that country. It is the right and the "obligation" of people to do the deed not some blow hearth neo-con or leftists to decide that the US is the superman of the world and must go and get anyone he doesn’t like.

Give me a break. Grow up and learn from the history.

You, as the representative of the US, have absolute no rights, what so ever to dictate to others your own believes.

The world community has the obligation to support democracy movement in other nations, they have to stop supporting the dictators, stop the double standards in the political and economical way it is dealing with the 3rd world countries and most importantly, stop this BS propaganda that you are the saviors of the world and you have the "right" to go in and change the governments, left and right.

Who are you going to put in charge of Pakistan? A good dictator? How many millions of people will die in the next 10 or 20 years for you to make Pakistan what you like?

Do you have any idea about the real cituation in those countries and if there are any real movement among the locals to take over the country when you go in and get rid of the old one?

The only time I support such action is to prevent Genocide, something that the world has looked the other way in both Rwanda and now in Sudan.

The world will be a much better place if you Americans take all your soldiers home from the world, and if you are so interested in the well being of the others and so humanitarian, create an army under the UN to support those who really need your help, the millions of people who are dying in Africa and other poor nations, stop the slave labor in poor countries by putting a control over your co-operations and for god sake clean up your own mess and make a real democracy in your own country before advocating it on other places on earth.

/Farhad Abdolian

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» you said it all for me Posted by: thaumaturgistguy
No way José
Posted by: wli on Apr 6, 2006 3:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read about the last 50 years of US interventions abroad. It's unclear whether you'll retreat in embarrassment or deny the basic facts (the more typical response), but either way, you'll know regardless of what you say that there can be no such thing as benevolent military intervention.

The best way to deal with Mugabe and similar figures is economic pressure, but even that is frequently abused. Witness the 47-year-long embargo against Cuba, and such shenanigans as "drug war" -related sanctions in Latin America, most often used as a cattle prod against governments that don't bend over backward for US/IMF dictates.

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» RE: No way José Posted by: Polly
Another Nut Case.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Apr 6, 2006 4:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for sharing these bogus ideas with us.

But, it would be to the best interests of the American people, if we changed our ways in this nation.

How about a "free and fair" electorial system?

Or universal health care?

Or free university education for all who qualify (objective standards, only).

How about a more equitable economic and banking system.

???????

Dear Alternet: please stop posting "ediitorials" from these CIA hirelings. I am tired of the warmed over intervensionist rhetoric.

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» RE: Another Nut Case. Posted by: kingfelix
» RE: Another Nut Case. Posted by: Redviper
» RE: edviper - Everything COSTS Posted by: Redviper
extremely naive
Posted by: kingfelix on Apr 6, 2006 5:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what you fail to understand is that dictatorships offer, potentially, a lot of security to the West, who are prepared to overlook human rights abuses.

if i had my pick of regimes to overthrow?

china, saudi arabia, zimbabwe, uzbekistan, north korea

why you include pakistan is beyond my understanding, they have nuclear weapons and could melt the entire region. but it is a fair point that they are presented uncritically in the media, despite the illegitimacy of musharraf's power (acquired in a military coup)

the US must stop using its own economic interests as the overriding criteria for what constitutes the necessity of regime change. Venezuela being an absolute case study in demonising a popular, elected, national leader, simply because he thumbed his nose at american big business and now sits on the world's largest oil reserves. and, of course, if chavez attempts to build up his military to protect venezuela from the almost inevitable US intervention, then he will be "militarising aggressively, threatening the US" and this becomes yet another justification for US intervention.

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» Please, stop this noncence Posted by: farhada
Happy to see this is getting the drubbing it so richly deserves...
Posted by: medstudgeek on Apr 6, 2006 5:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know it sounds like a nice idea to replace 'bad guys' with 'good guys', but this isn't the Lord of the Rings. While I am sure many Africans would like us to invade (their current governments are frequently so incompetent any change would be good), there's no guarantee anybody we could install would be any better. And the idea that certain governments are 'as bad as possible' strikes me as naive; one of the things history has taught us is that humanity can always sink to new lows, and people's future behavior can be hard to predict beforehand.
Assume (this is a REAL counterfactual, mind you) that the French were strong enough to invade America, and promised to impose a European welfare state. How many of you would take up arms to help them? Probably a few, I suspect. But given the way countries run their colonies, we'd probably be raped and exploited.
We also don't understand other countries all that well, as we see in Iraq. We are uniquely poorly-qualified to execute regime change; the Brits at least tried to learn about the countries they were going to invade (with the result that former British colonies often wound up a lot better off after decolonization than, say, French colonies or our own mess, Liberia).
Also, even if someone says they are promoting democracy, they often have ulterior motives. The Iraq War was about oil, and the Cold War was about protecting capitalism. It did result in freedom for Eastern Europe, but that was a (beneficial) side effect. It did not result in more freedom for Latin America (remember Allende?).
Let's stay at home and fix our own problems, starting with regime change for Chimpy.

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» Hear, hear!! Posted by: stormchilde1975
Change is mass movement by the working people
Posted by: Xjy on Apr 6, 2006 5:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with most of the comments so far. This article is warmed-over imperialist rhetoric, White Man's Burden, you name it...
There are only two ways the US could really make a difference for the better. The first is to stop subsidizing the thuggish puppets, the rabid running-dogs who rule most of the problem states. If the US took its hand from Israel, that vicious state would collapse in less than a fortnight. The second is by doing what Cuba is doing in Venezuela - sending hundreds of trained specialists to help ordinary people solve health, education and infrastructural problems on their own terms and by invitation only.
The first alternative can only come about when the mass of American working people boot out your current kind of government and regime.
The second can only work on an effective scale under the same conditions, although steps in this direction might be possible sooner, even if they are contradictory and cancelled out by the greater assistance given to the zombies.

Till then, the people in exploited and oppressed countries will have to fight on their own against both their own oppressors and the US-led international imperialist conspiracy of exploiters.

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I wonder....
Posted by: oneMan on Apr 6, 2006 5:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many barbarian tribes were happy when the roman army rolled into town? Rome had mild taxes, was religiously and culturally tolerant and brought massive technological improvements everywhere it went. Which also makes me wonder. If the founding fathers of America based our government on the Roman republic why wouldn't we proceed to the next stage of Rome? I've had similar experiences in my travels to those of the author of this article. Many people worldwide are willing, nay anxious, to endure American occupation in order to receive the benefits. With all of these reasons shouldn't empire be the logical conclusion? And yet I still wonder. Why is it that any time you reference the American empire, Americans get uncomfortable? What is it about going empire that makes most American citizens go a little green around the gills? These are only partially rhetorical questions. Intelligent responses would be appreciated.

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» RE: I wonder.... Posted by: stuck_in_FL
» Erm . . . Posted by: stormchilde1975
» They lasted a few hundred years Posted by: medstudgeek
» Compare, say, to China Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Compare, say, to China Posted by: blueneck
» RE: I wonder.... Posted by: gar
» RE: I wonder.... Posted by: owleyes
We can't agree on which countries?
Posted by: davidhobby on Apr 6, 2006 6:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've read the comments so far, and what strikes me
most is the lack of agreement as to which countries
would merit "regime change". I believe that a case
could be made for helping countries get rid of repressive
leaders. Ideally, the United Nations would be in charge
of the movement. That's not likely, but it would need
to be a multi-national group of some sort.

Note that I didn't say bad leaders--those would definitely
be local problems. I also agree with the author, there
would have to be a solid opposition within the country
that could form the basis for a new government. That's
one lesson that should definitely be learned from Iraq!

Would catalyzing regime changes be right? That's a
thorny question, but I think a good test would be what
the citizens of the target country thought a year later.
If almost all of them are happy the outside world intervened
to overthrow their old government, then doing so was
right.

With this out of the way, I'd like to point out that we can't
even agree on which countries are good candidates. The
example that springs to my mind is Burma, which no one
suggested.

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You can't blame a writer for writing ...
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Apr 6, 2006 6:35 AM   
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... it's what they do: write, publish, move on ... hopefully get paid at some point.

And when you come down to it, AlterNet exists primarily to give writers opportunities to show their work and promote their books -- not to promote some consistant moral or ideological position.

STILL: this particular article was more than a little disturbing.

"How stupid must you think I am not to notice how wicked you just assumed I could be?"

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US tends to overthrow good governments
Posted by: ceti on Apr 6, 2006 6:39 AM   
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The author of this piece has it backwards -- the US is in the business of overthrowing good governments more than bad ones -- remember Arbenz? followed by four decades of genocide. Allende? followed by the long nightmare of fascist dictatorship, all brought to you by American regime change. There are countless other examples.

This liberal imperialism bunk is just as dangerous as old fashion command and conquest. Most empire builder really believed that they were bringing peace, security, stability, and order to the galaxy, er.. the world.

So while many in the world hope against hope that the US with its power and wealth will work for the welfare of humanity -- it won't as long as it's an empire.

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otto
Posted by: otto on Apr 6, 2006 6:49 AM   
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I see the point, but I still feel uncomfortable and find the whole notion dangerous. It's too easy to be subjective, to see the speck in our brother's eye and ignore the mote in our own eye. Also, I think I detect a bit of "old American flavor" that I don't like...seeing Communist nations like Russia and North Korea as "all bad"...from our point of view. I suspect that regime change over here because of the evils we've perpetrated against other nations may have been the objective of Osama Bin Laden and 9-11, just as Palestinians often want to change the mentality if not the regime of past Israeli governments.

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Nice idea but ramming America down people's throats won't work
Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 6, 2006 6:50 AM   
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Humanitarian regime change is a holdover from the Clinton era. It is espoused by Tony Blair. It will never work as long as it is America calling all the shots. America now generates either fear or hate in the world today. So many people (and I'm a fan of American culture and its people) have had it with taking orders from America. We can see that you don't have the best place in the world - Americans frankly look like a nation of angry burn outs. We don't want to go the same route. All regime change, if it happens again, must go through international bodies. The UN is useless so a new body is required. I don't know what it would look like, but somebody has to invent one.

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I see, use our "arrogance" for "good" instead of bad?
Posted by: Prophit on Apr 6, 2006 6:55 AM   
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I am sorry, but anything that requires invading another sovereign nation should be done through the entire international community.

What made me laugh reading this article was the description of that horrible little country, Zimbabwe and how much like our own leader and government is was. Does that mean Germany should invade us, overthrow Bush and Cheney and restore leaders acceptable to Germany???? LOL

No, I say, we the people should take care of that ourselves or have our people make their case to a full international body with a resulting decision by the international community if a case can be made for "crimes against Humanity" against Bush and Cheney and then have them implement what needs to be done in the name of compassion and human rights.

The US has never had the right to overthrow another sovereign nation and as far as I am concerned it still doesn't. We are arrogant to think we alone can determine such action. In addition it would leave such decisions to someone like Bush who may or may not be telling us the truth about that nation. Its better for those in exile to make their case for crimes against humanity with a full international community group.

Once you break the rule of sovereignty you then act as God in these things. That is too much power.

Now, I have to say it, "What is going on with Alternet with these articles that support a neocon agenda?" Before I felt this was a good thing to have controversial subjects for discussion, but this one is way outside the realm of anything resembling integrity.

Not a word there about South Africa and how we changed it using the entire world community and non violently as well.

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American exceptionalism lives
Posted by: Blanktivist on Apr 6, 2006 6:58 AM   
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When I saw the headline and slugline, my first thought was that the "use of regime change for humanitarian purposes" under discussion would be the removal of George W. Bush from the People's House. So add my voice to the chorus of disappointment with the article we actually got.

"so rah rah rah democracy
let's all be thankful as hell
and bury the statue of liberty
because it begins to smell"

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what about Burma?
Posted by: guvdrone on Apr 6, 2006 7:18 AM   
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I propose Bush & co. topple the military government of Burma. They changed the name of the country, moved their capital on the advice of astrologers, refuse to turn over power to the legimitate leader of the nation (Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, Nobel laureate, who is under house arrest), torture and murder their own people, allow citizens to be used as slaves by the military and foreign corporations, wage war against their ethnic minority populations, sell off massive chunks of the country to the Chinese, deal in drugs... and so on. Did I mention they were defeated in 1988 in one of the few real elections in the country's history? Well they were. Only problem is the military dictatorship has made sweet deals with foreign natural gas firms so we really wouldn't want to upset the apple cart in the name of something foolish like basic human rights, would we?

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» RE: what about Burma? Posted by: kelly.nickell
Mick
Posted by: Johanna Moren on Apr 6, 2006 7:52 AM   
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Mick, you are so right. When I pressed the button for this site to-day and was confronted with that letter to sign for Bush going into Darfur, I thought I was on the wrong site.
Good grief, what is the matter with the woman.
What do these American suffer from.
He is about the last person they need. I'm sure he would love to go in there. They have oil.
Johanna Moren.

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What crap
Posted by: Ghoulman on Apr 6, 2006 8:12 AM   
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There's only one thing worse than a right wing liar and that's a left wing fantasist.

This article is so full of American self-delusion I can't even pick one thing about it to demonstrate my point.

America doesn't go to other countries to make nice, it goes there for oil. Period. Revisionist history on Chile and the rest of South and Central America and twisting facts "just so" proves only that Americans still don't care enough about the rest of the world to even come to a meager understanding of just how destructive US foriegn policy has been for the last 150 years. Really, ... worse than France in Africa.

*sigh*... just waiting for someone to point out how much I "hate America" or some such rubbish.

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» RE: What crap Posted by: antoniomo
» RE: What crap Posted by: owleyes
» RE: What crap. Neocon nonsense too. Posted by: doinaheckuvajob
» RE: What crap Posted by: Aussie Kim
Good way to help the powerful start more wars
Posted by: gorthaur on Apr 6, 2006 8:21 AM   
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In an ideal world there might be some benevolent power that would only do good. But in the real world, the only people who have the power to overthrow others' governments are interested only in power itself, not in doing good. Any intevervention will primarily be carried out to serve their own interests. There have probably been a few interventions that have had beneficial effects, but even in those cases there has been a great human cost. If you support the imperial power against "bad guys", you strengthen that power's ability to intervene wherever it wants. It's like supporting a sniper shooting into a schoolyard because he happens to hit some bullies.

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Don't be so guillible
Posted by: jane on Apr 6, 2006 8:23 AM   
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Mr Zachary, I advise you not to trust the word of a Western-educated African elite musing over the role of the US over a beer. Most Africans know that Westerners have egos so fragile that they need to be affirmed with absurdities like humanitarian intervention, and so will say anything to get Westerners smiling and off their backs.

Perhaps it's time America asked itself why it so needs to be liked by everyone else but itself, and so hopes to do "good deeds" for others while there's a stink in its own back yard. Is it so hard to know that other people are minding their own business, that they are not thinking about America? Why is America so needy for attention?

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» RE: Don't be so guillible Posted by: greggzachary
Same Old, Same Old
Posted by: Jbuuty on Apr 6, 2006 8:24 AM   
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How surprising! Another white man 'rationally' explaining why white men should re-colonize Africa and Asia. After living in Africa for the past 16 years, and learning to speak a couple of local languages, I have heard African friends - while expressing deep dissatisfaction with their government - say that America could run it better. However, none of them would in the end truly advocate the renewed colonialism that Zachary argues for. It's basically a racist idea.

Most despots have managed to stay in power through the support of a foreign government that is willing to arm them in exchange for some resource. Sometimes this has been the USA. At other times it has been Russia, China, England, France, Saudi Arabia, etc. These relationships are the places to begin if we want people to truly have a say in their own governments.

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» RE: Same Old, Same Old Posted by: greggzachary
U.S. stay out of wherever.
Posted by: operdoc on Apr 6, 2006 8:34 AM   
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The United States should get the hell out of wherever we are, and never consider again, changing regimes in any country unless that country is so aggressive and dangerous that it endanger the lives of our citizens. We can attempt to practice democracy here and hope the idea catches on, but forcing our ideaology down the throats of other countries has rarely worked (Japan and Germany being possible exceptions). This is the policy of the founders of the United States, and it remains one of the best policies ever engendered.

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Bullsh*t
Posted by: EY on Apr 6, 2006 9:03 AM   
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This article, like other rhetoric that parrots the administration's claims to "furthering democracy," is dangerous. Just like the moderates and lefties on the radio, it misses the entire point. There were no "good intentions" in going into Iraq. If lefties and moderates keep claiming that the administration has good intentions and the only criticism they get is that they made a huge blunder, then we are officially clamping down on any constructive discussions about the real reasons we are in Iraq (and why we generate fear about Iran and Venezuela). We are in there for oil, and we will be there as long as we can pump more of it. What is the point of talking about creating a working government in Iraq and the civil war that will commence if we pull our troops out? That is not why we are there!

If we want to discuss blunders, the only blunder the administration made was underestimating the insurgents who bomb the oil pipelines and disrupt the flow of oil.

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A Response To Zachary ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland on Apr 6, 2006 9:18 AM   
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Is over in The Mix.

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worry about our own illigetimate government
Posted by: globaljustice on Apr 6, 2006 9:20 AM   
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and let the people of Zimbabwe, Kenya, Pakistan worry about theirs. I am from Pakistan and I can tell you that Musharraf would be out right now if not for U.S. support. Same for the Burmese generals. Mugabe is a different story, but the policies we've forced Zimbabwe to follow for 20 years through the IMF are certainly partly to blame for what you see now. In the Arab world, the U.S. destroyed any hope for secularist nationalism by destroying Mossadegh in Iran and helping to destroy Nasser in Egypt. We can best help the people of the world by worrying about our own disaster of a government, not theirs.

As Billy Bragg says, you can fight for democracy at home and not in some foreign land.

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Incredible.
Posted by: bugs on Apr 6, 2006 9:57 AM   
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Halfway through this article, I had to look up at the posting date to make sure it wasn't an April Fool's joke. Sadly, no.

Dump the paternalism and the superiority complex, Mr. Pascal Zachary. Remember: "If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together."

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Killing SUDAN
Posted by: fairleft on Apr 6, 2006 10:10 AM   
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The government of Sudan also deserves to go. These Islamic fundamentalists, led by President Omar el-Bashir, have led a vicious counterinsurgency war against black Christians and animists in the western Darfur region of Sudan. Informed observers have charged the government with genocide. The same government once harbored bin Laden and remains a haven for Islamic extremists.

The US has been making war on Sudan by bombs and propaganda ever since a nationalist Islamic (i.e., a non-Western corporate puppet) government came to power. A US-funded seccessionist war erupted in the country's South and Sudan fought against that just like the US did against the Southern United States. What's wrong with that? A few years later another secessionist war breaks out in Sudan's west, Darfur. Sudan fights those rebels too, and what's wrong with that? Why does the US fund civil war in Sudan? Where do the civil warriors in the West and South find their inspiration and money? We should all agree that it is civil war that has destroyed the West and South of Sudan. The US needs to stop covertly and overtly funding civil war and black operations against regimes it (and its corporations) do not like.

The charges of genocide appear to be based, at least in part, on exaggerated estimates of the number of people who have died in the region. In October of 2004, the WHO estimated that 70,000 had died up to that time in the crisis. A USAID official in July of 2004 estimated that 30,000 had been killed in acts of violence (by both sides in a brutal civil war), and another 50,000 had died from malnutrition and related causes. Darfur's population is an estimated 6 million, and since late 2004 the situation has dramatically improved (although it is deteriorating again now, with perhaps increased funding of rebels by the US?). Based on these facts, where is the genocide? Finally, note that both the UN and the European Union investigated the Darfur humanitarian crisis and neither found genocide had taken place. Finally, yes the civil wars are vicious, there is no other kind, and both sides are vicious. Finally 2, the bias of calling the government-allied militias "Janjaweed" is both laughable and appalling. Janjaweed means thieves/pirates, and they are the scourge of everyone living in western Sudan.

Since the Darfur humanitarian crisis came to a head in 2004, humanitarian assistance has poured into Western Sudan, and an impoverished (by US-funded wars and sanctions) Sudan government has been commended for its efforts (by the World Health Organization) in largely 'ending' that humanitarian crisis. The world needs to continue providing funding to the humanitarian groups active in western and southern Sudan, and promote peace and reconcilation rather than rattling the invasion sabres (which only encourages bullheadedness like refusal to negotiate (the Darfur rebels at present refuse to negotiate with the government)).

By the way again (there was a lot of distortion and lies in that little invader's quote), Sudan kicked Bin Laden out of the country in 1996 after offering to detain him and turn him over to the US, an offer the US refused.

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Killing Sudan (Without Italics)
Posted by: fairleft on Apr 6, 2006 10:13 AM   
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>"The government of Sudan also deserves to go. These Islamic fundamentalists, led by President Omar el-Bashir, have led a vicious counterinsurgency war against black Christians and animists in the western Darfur region of Sudan. Informed observers have charged the government with genocide. The same government once harbored bin Laden and remains a haven for Islamic extremists."

The US has been making war on Sudan by bombs and propaganda ever since a nationalist Islamic (i.e., a non-Western corporate puppet) government came to power. A US-funded seccessionist war erupted in the country's South and Sudan fought against that just like the US did against the Southern United States. What's wrong with that? A few years later another secessionist war breaks out in Sudan's west, Darfur. Sudan fights those rebels too, and what's wrong with that? Why does the US fund civil war in Sudan? Where do the civil warriors in the West and South find their inspiration and money? We should all agree that it is civil war that has destroyed the West and South of Sudan. The US needs to stop covertly and overtly funding civil war and black operations against regimes it (and its corporations) do not like.

The charges of genocide appear to be based, at least in part, on exaggerated estimates of the number of people who have died in the region. In October of 2004, the WHO estimated that 70,000 had died up to that time in the crisis. A USAID official in July of 2004 estimated that 30,000 had been killed in acts of violence (by both sides in a brutal civil war), and another 50,000 had died from malnutrition and related causes. Darfur's population is an estimated 6 million, and since late 2004 the situation has dramatically improved (although it is deteriorating again now, with perhaps increased funding of rebels by the US?). Based on these facts, where is the genocide? Finally, note that both the UN and the European Union investigated the Darfur humanitarian crisis and neither found genocide had taken place. Finally, yes the civil wars are vicious, there is no other kind, and both sides are vicious. Finally 2, the bias of calling the government-allied militias "Janjaweed" is both laughable and appalling. Janjaweed means thieves/pirates, and they are the scourge of everyone living in western Sudan.

Since the Darfur humanitarian crisis came to a head in 2004, humanitarian assistance has poured into Western Sudan, and an impoverished (by US-funded wars and sanctions) Sudan government has been commended for its efforts (by the World Health Organization) in largely 'ending' that humanitarian crisis. The world needs to continue providing funding to the humanitarian groups active in western and southern Sudan, and promote peace and reconcilation rather than rattling the invasion sabres (which only encourages bullheadedness like refusal to negotiate (the Darfur rebels at present refuse to negotiate with the government)).

By the way again (there was a lot of distortion and lies in that little invader's quote), Sudan kicked Bin Laden out of the country in 1996 after offering to detain him and turn him over to the US, an offer the US refused.

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How to counter entrenched power?
Posted by: JoeBackward on Apr 6, 2006 10:58 AM   
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Mugabe's an entrenched evil kleptocrat, no doubt. By no measure (except his own bank account) is he doing a good job of leadership.

But, what is to be done to confront this kind of evil?

When it happens here in the USA -- for example when a corrupt public housing adminstrator steals the money that's budgeted for rat eradication -- people organize to confront it, and sometimes get change. Sometimes, but not frequently, they can successfully call in the cavalry, for example, by getting a federal law passed and asking the feds to do their confronting for them. But this has never worked very well and lately (since the Bush regime came into power) not at all. Mostly people who want things changed have to do the work of confrontation on their own with help from influential allies.

Why is calling in the cavalry going to work for Zimbabwe? It certainly isn't going to even get started if the people of Zimbabwe steal off into the night after asking travelling US journalists for help. It certainly isn't going to work if it's organized primarily by people in the US who think "we" have to save "them."

Don't get me wrong, it is clear that Mugabe has to go. He will go the way of all flesh pretty soon. But even if a foreign-led war against him is the most just of all wars, will it work? Nope.

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Why Keep the "Humanitarian" Intervention Myth Alive?
Posted by: decembrist on Apr 6, 2006 11:45 AM   
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Let this myth die in the minds of the public along with their support for the Occupation of Iraq.

Poor Zimbabwe will never receive the help of the US - they should count themselves lucky. Some reasons they'll never get our help are that they're not a major oil exporter, aren't on the verge of a popular, democratic resurgence, and aren't developing nuclear weapons. As long as Mugabe holds his present course, the US gov't will be content to occasionally speak out about the plight of so many African nations.

Has the US ever intervened in a purely, legitimately, humanitarian way? Our bombing of Serbia came before most of the atrocities, and probably was the catalyst for them. Its main purpose was to flex NATOs muscles a bit. Haiti? God, I'm sure they wish their country was land-locked next to Nepal, where the US would leave them alone.

What about the times when the world knew perfectly well that thousands of innocents were being slaughtered and the US not only did nothing, but supported them with military aid? Such as Suharto and his massacre of 240,000 people in East Timor.

The author actually left out our most recent attempt at regime change, which occurred while we worked so hard for democracy in Iraq - our support for the attempted overthrow of Venezuala's Hugo Chavez, a democratically elected and widely popular leader.

The examples of the abuse of regime change for humanitarian reasons are too numerous to ignore. Let the myth of noble, benevolent (albeit bumbling) American die.

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Another Day -- Another Advocate for State Violence
Posted by: David Peterson on Apr 6, 2006 11:59 AM   
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A friend just called G. Pascal Zachary’s "The Good Guy's Guide To Overthrowing Governments" to my attention (AlterNet, April 6). Rightly, my friend deplored Zachary’s commentary, referring to it as yet another version of “imperialism-lite.”

On this, I disagree with my friend: Zachary’s prescriptions are much more heavy-handed than this.

For example, readers will have noticed that Zachary's candidates for potential attack (i.e., “regime change,” in his euphemistic phrase) are Zimbabwe, North Korea, Pakistan, and the Sudan. Hence, no official enemy of the current regime in the White House fails to make Zachary's list. The one wild-card being Pakistan: In naming Pakistan to his list, Zachary exceeds the White House’s by at least this one. But Pakistan makes Zachary's list because, as Zachary puts it, "Pakistan's protection of al-Qaida"! Verily, I am confident that the world can sleep more peacefully at night, knowing that Zachary is on guard.

According to Zachary's prescription, moreover, American Power should "Target only governments that are clearly and relentlessly harming their populations."

But what about those governments in the world that clearly and relentlessly threaten or do actual harm to the populations of other countries, and in doing so, make a mess of peace and security internationally?

Not only by pleading the case for so-called regime change, please note well. But by launching wars of aggression, and by enforcing economic and diplomatic sanctions to help cause regime changes.

Ought not governments such as these also be candidates for regime change?

And if not, why not?

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Regime change? How about halting extrenal aggression?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 6, 2006 2:45 PM   
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The number one aggressor (invader of other nations) in the world right now is - yes that's right - the United States. Being a US citizen, I find this shameful. I mean, I don't see any Chinese military bases in Mexico, or any Russian military bases in the Middle East. Pretty simple to understand once you open your eyes.

The UN was originally formed to halt external aggression: this is why many people (including me) believe there was fair justification for Gulf War I: Saddam had invaded a neighbor, Kuwait. That's why there was a true multinational force on hand that time. The idea here is that agression needs to be stopped; no more appeasing Hitler in Munich, right? No more appeasing Bush, either.

However, we are now behaving as the aggressor. Hitler did use the same rationale to invade Poland by the way - Protecting the Fatherland from an International Jewish-Communist Threat, is what he called it. Benevolent regime change - is this guy Zachary being tounge in cheek or something?

Why not bring all those bases back to the US, where they'd benefit the local communities as well as provide security for the US? They could all be put to work helping out with hurricane relief, for example, and policing the borders against terrorists with nukes.

Why don't we 'Just Say No' to Empire and to the Imperial Ambitions of the Bush regime and their 'Project for A New American Century' backers? Bring the troops home and put them to work rebuilding our country, which, if you haven't noticed, is in danger of coming apart at the seams. (bye-bye dollar)

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Remember Rummy Shaking Hands with Satan (Saddam)?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 6, 2006 3:00 PM   
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Too bad we used to support Saddam. These clowns in office made a habit of propping up corrupt dictators all over the world, and when they turned and bit they acted oh so surprised.

It's called BLOWBACK - a typical result of sponsoring corrupt tyrants who then decide to strike out on their own. I hope everyone has seen this photo:

Rummy's Good Buddy

A picture says a thousand words...

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Regime change begins at home
Posted by: YogiBear on Apr 6, 2006 3:18 PM   
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In countries with governments that deserve to be overthrown, look for credible opposition leaders with a strong base of support among ordinary citizens.

Do the Democrats count as "credible"?

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» RE: egime change begins at home Posted by: greggzachary
» Sorry, Paul from London Posted by: YogiBear
new world order
Posted by: harinama on Apr 6, 2006 3:20 PM   
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King George 1st pegged it when he spoke of a "new world order" right before he kicked Hussain, (the leader we propped up and goaded into attacking)out of kuwait. King George 2nd is only following in his father's footsteps.

Western imperialism is still as strong and vibrant as it was in the later part of the 19th and early 20th centuries. It was "covert" throughout the middle of the last century, but now flaunts itself with impunity.

The present US economy is a smokescreen for an eroded infrastructure, an oil supported dollar, and an increasingly polarized socioeconomic structure. Since WW2, our govt has bullied the world with a massive military buildup, used sanctions to destroy the economies of countries, used coups and assassinations to force regime change in dozens of sovereign states, and combined disastrous economic policy and backroom deals to prop up the worthless greenback by tying the worlds primary energy resource, oil, to it in every market.

We are now seeing the culmination of our arragance, ecoism, social and religious myopia, and economic imperialism. Our imperialist aims are out in the open, and we can no longer hide behind the smokescreen of spreading freedom and democracy. We have truly become the despised largest supporters of terrorism in the world today.

We are not the policmen of the world, the arbiters of righteousness, the supporters of freedom and goodwill. America is now the torturer of innocents, the economic iron fist of destruction, and the socioeconomic destroyer. There is no ideological dreamworld we can retreat to, as our misdeeds are plastered for all to see each and everyday.

NO, the answer is NOT to impose more of our selfrighteous military strength upon the oppressed peoples of the earth. Now is the time to cut our military spending by 75%, and redirect that money towards worldwide reparations, internal structural and social reconstruction, and to begin the warcrime trials of the sadist corporatist/imperialist neocon dictatorship now in power. Maybe by seeing Bush et all hanging from the gallows of world-wide indignation might the healing begin. There ARE honest,caring people in our country, but our system of government has been co-opted
by the age old lust for power and greed.

The days of US Imperialism are nearing their end, and those in power are not going out without a fight. I only hope there will be a world worth living in at the end of the struggle.

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» RE: new world order Posted by: Aussie Kim
» aussie pete Posted by: Peter Boyd
» RE: new world order Posted by: gar
America, f*** yeah
Posted by: owleyes on Apr 6, 2006 3:41 PM   
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"Regime change" is a euphamism for "war of aggression." Good guys do not engage in wars of aggression. It is one thing to support resistance movements around the world with money and supplies. It is another thing to send our own military. Our military has one purpose: protecting our country. Forcibly removing foreign tyrants in other countries does not fall under that rubric. Why does this guy think that it would be less disastrous if the abuse of our military were comitted by people whose political ideology aligned with his own? That is a superficial and uninformed point of view, particularly from a (presumably) paid journalist. I will never forgive George Bush for launching an illegal war against Iraq, and I don't care what his intentions were. It was a fool's errand from the start, as anyone with any sense could plainly see. "Liberals" who are motivated by altruism to invade a country and kill people are just as bad as George W. Bush. Where do people come up with these terrible ideas? Are they just trying to generate controversy?

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Good guys are not...
Posted by: Gregor Samsa on Apr 6, 2006 3:49 PM   
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in the business of overthrowing foreign governments in naked wars of aggression.

Good guys respect other people's sovereignty and right to self-determination.

Good guys respect other people's culture and do not try to impose their own.

Mr. Zachary has outlined -albeit eloquently- a neo-colonial foreign policy for the US that rationalises imperialism under the guise of humanitarianism. Let's not forget imperial powers of yore often argued the same kind of "humanitarian" reasons to invade a country and liberate it of its "barbarian" customs and traditions.

Thank you, Mr. Zachary, for showing your true colors.

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In that case we'll all be speaking Chinese in a few years.
Posted by: nzo on Apr 6, 2006 4:52 PM   
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The Chinese master plan in the South Pacific is to have Mandarin as the official language down here, freed from the threat that the USA will not stand against them in any theatre.
But hopefully the elite Chinese government leeches will choke on their own pollution long before that happens.

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aussie pete
Posted by: Peter Boyd on Apr 6, 2006 9:13 PM   
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Of all the countries Mr Zachary identifies as requiring regime change he fails to mention the vilest of them all - the USA. There has never been a country with such a long history of physical aggression, economic rape and oppression of cultural and intellectual diversity both at home and abroad as the USoA. Under the present Administration it is at its worst.
To elect Bush once could be forgiven but to re-elect him makes you complicit.
As we don't have the military might to overthrow him and the american people don't have the balls, I guess we'll just have to wait until he fades away or implodes as Zachary suggests.
In the meantime the USA would do far better to clean up its own stinking Act than moralise to the rest of the world.
If you believe this is just the rantings of some half wit individual then get your arse out of your own backyard and you'll find that even the people you think of as your allies can't stand you.
Wake up america your being sold a pup. At least half of you have an existence that is only marginally better than people in developing nations and you are being shafted by a ruling elite that couldn't give a shit about you.

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Dumb article.
Posted by: superdan on Apr 6, 2006 9:36 PM   
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The bottom line is that America has never been interested in promoting democracy. America is interested in promoting free market capitalism, which is not even close to being the same thing. Witness the opposition to Chavez, a democratically elected leader, because he is not toeing the free market line.

"Woodrow Wilson's secretary of state, Robert Lansing ..., commented scornfully on ‘how willing the British, French, or Italians are to accept a mandate' from the League of Nations, as long as ‘there are mines, oil fields, rich grain fields, or railroads' that will ‘make it a profitable undertaking.' These ‘unselfish governments' declare that mandates must be accepted ‘for the good of mankind': ‘they will do their share by administering the rich regions of Mesopotamia, Syria, &c.' The proper assessment of these pretensions is ‘so manifest that it is almost an insult to state it.'"

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Intervention..
Posted by: the poet on Apr 6, 2006 9:36 PM   
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I don't think this article is very productive. I agree with most of the comments here criticising it. My point of view is that intervention (armed or economic) should not be completely ruled out, but fundamentally changed. It is obvious that "moral" or "humanitarian" intervention thus far has been used and abused as a tool for regime change within the intervening party's interests (usually resources).

If I see someone in the street who needs help, I help them. That is a quality of humanity that should be applied globally. The problem is there are a lot of people in this world with bad intentions - unfortunately many of them are leaders. Intervention should never be done unilaterally. When the UN formed it gave itself the responsibility of intervention. And as has already been adressed, the UN itself is flawed because of the veto powers of the p5 of Security Council.

There needs to be a more democratic system for dealing with international disputes, civil wars, humanitarian abuses etc. It needs to include every nation and be without a veto system.
Most importantly, I don't think any nation should be up for intervention unless it's people are asking for help.

Regime change is a much more complex issue. If the police see a guy abusing his girlfriend they can arrest him if he breaks the law but they can't force her to leave him. In the case of nations, I think regime change must come from within. Perhaps peacekeeping forces can pressure governments to hold elections and then observe them to ensure they are fair and democratic.. but would this be imposing democracy on a nation that may not want democracy? I'm not sure - just some ideas.

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Is this progressive?
Posted by: kialov on Apr 7, 2006 1:43 AM   
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You would expect that a country which has an identifiable opposition would be more open than a country that oppresses all opposition to such an extent that no identifiable opposition can be found. In these countries with visible opposition there must be some form of hope that the people would eventually organise themselves. The opposition though weak in Zimbabwe continue to grow in strength. The oppressed majority have something to not only hold onto but also to work towards. Even the most brutal government can not win against a people who are organised and willing. The thought that the high and mighty USA should stick its nose in these countries with military action to bring about puppet governments in untenable.

Surely if you were going to propose that the progressives support Bush’s doctrine of regime change it would be in relation to countries such as North Korea and Cuba were opposition within these countries is not identifiable. It is not possible for a mass movement in these countries when there is not even token opposition for the oppressed to cling to. Regime change in these countries would free the people who are unable to organise themselves.

Countries with a visible opposition and the ability—no matter how constrained—to organise don’t need imperial powers to interfere.

It should also be remembered that with Iraq there was identifiable opposition, mainly in the guise of the Kurds, but giving power to them in such a sectarian country would not have worked. So the idea of identifiable opposition being the precursor to regime change seems simple folly. Afghanistan too had an identifiable opposition and indeed the US gave power to them, once in charge the northern alliance just picked up were the Taliban left off.

As to beginning the article referring to an Zimbabwe exile who you later say should have no role in regime throw—only those in the country—it was interesting that you than say Castro should not be overthrown. Visit Miami and talk to Cuban exiles and I’m sure you’ll hear similar stories from them as you heard from the good professor.

Oh I hate when ‘progressives’ speak nonsane and I’m force to take the role of a conservative in the hope that it will lead to discussion and instead of stupidity like this we can develop ideas that are truly progressive. The thought that the US should go around overthrowing any country if feels is oppressive—should we rid the world of Israel for its treatment of Palestinians—is NOT progressive.

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» RE: Is this progressive? Posted by: greggzachary
Oil, religion, nonviolence and democracy (parts 1 and 2)
Posted by: am con on Apr 7, 2006 7:41 AM   
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I have some serious concerns about the inadequacies of this article and its analysis:

1) A important little-discussed purpose of America's attack on Iraq was to protect the dollar's status as the worldwide currency for oil. That mission was accomplished... for the moment. Saddam was the leading challenger to that practice, by continuing to demand the right to trade oil for food in euros. The next and more significant challenger to the petrodollar is Iran. For two years they have been trying to open up a third major oil market, one that trades solely in euros, unlike the NY and London markets that trade in dollars only. Most oil imports to China would come from Iran or be traded there. Thus, Chinese investors, already concerned about the future weakness of the dollar, would be less compelled to regard the dollar as the reserve currency of the world. This is but one reason why such an oil market will transform the world currency valuations. We have the choice...if we don't fight the petrodollar war to stop Iran, we will have to pay a considerable financial reckoning as the euro becomes stronger and the dollar weakens. Sadly, Bush and too many others would rather pay in blood than money.

2) Democracy is more an effect of nonviolence than a cause of it. In order to have democracy, a society needs a leadership class committed to nonviolent resolution of political disputes and nonviolent management of ongoing political conflict. That has generally been our nation's history, though we have also a partly shameful record of assassinations. Bush and company argue a policy of collossal ignorance by presuming that forcing people who have no such history or commitment to nonviolence to go through a few elections will magically create a democracy. If such nonviolent norms aren't present, the basic choices are some form of tyrrany or chaos. Of course, progressives still care about the plight of people suffering under tyranny and oppression. One relatively unused tool is to use international monetary aid to create pressure for democratic reforms. For too long, we've assumed that as long as incomes grow in these recipient nations, political liberalization will grow, too. But many regimes have mastered the art of allowing material success while stifling dissent. China is the biggest example. For those regimes who want aid from IMF and the World Bank, some of the strings should relate to the "coordination goods" that allow for effective political opposition: access to higher education, free and open media and the right to organize opposition parties.

(continued...)

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Oil, religion, nonviolence and democracy (Parts 3 and 4)
Posted by: am con on Apr 7, 2006 7:46 AM   
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3) Increasingly in this era, conflicts in the world are perceived and defined more on a sense of "civilizations" and less on political ideology (fighting communism or fascism, except perhaps for fascism's reemergence in the US) or nationalism. Religion is the most defining characteristic to a person's sense of belonging to a particular "civilization." Liberal, Western Christians are relatively benign at present, compared to, for example, fundamentalist Christians today, the dark history of the Roman Catholic church through the last two thousand years or much of the Muslim world because the Christian canon is a historical commentary (God appears in it) and, more importantly, following the Enlightenment and centuries of scientific and philosophical progress, liberal Christians have learned to judiciously ignore the problematic parts of, i.e. most of, that canon and to attend to the parts that speak from progressive values. Muslims, unfortunately, are in desperate need of a Reformation in this modern era. Their canon is harder to ignore, since it is the literal word of God, in Arabic, spoken in first person to the reader. A great many Muslims see not just their values, but also this canon as totally relevant to both their personal life and to their greater political life. Hence come much of the tensions we see today in Iraq and throughout the region. The only thing that has held back vigorous civil war thus far in Iraq has been the restraint of some major Shiite clerics, sensing that with Saddam out of the way, their greater numbers give them a political advantage. But many among those leaders want to ulitmately even a lot of scores, and for a lot of good reasons that would make any feeling person weep. We can pretend all we like, but eventually those desires for revenge will be satisfied and eventually the area will be Balkanized and run mainly by clerics.

4) Sooo.... I would urge restraint in thinking about "regime change". Violent regime change has a very low likelihood of fostering democracy. It is symptomatic of a society that can not support democracy. A more disciplined, long-term policy seems preferable to me. We should revise economic aid to include incentives that require moves to support political liberalization. We should respectfully support those within Islam who seek a reformation that can make Islam relevant and workable in a modern age. We should be willing to give up on US hegemony based on the petrodollar and take our financial lumps. We should begin to reduce our appetite for oil in anticipation of the consequences of Peak Oil and to reduce the stresses that oil shortage creates and that are exacerbated by the fact that so much of that oil just happens to lie under Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran.

At least, that's how I see it today. Of course, I could be wrong...

Cheers,

am con

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Pay to go
Posted by: greggzachary on Apr 7, 2006 10:58 AM   
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There are many constructive options for changing leadership in Zimbabwe. "Overthrow" could be as painless as the US govt paying Mugabe to leave.

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The road to hell
Posted by: ng1944 on Apr 7, 2006 1:20 PM   
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The road to hell paved with good intentions

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Just more imperialism!
Posted by: raincascadia on Apr 7, 2006 3:51 PM   
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I seriously wondered if the author was hired by the neoconservatives to write this article. Even if we were asked by the general population of a country to evict a dictator, the US government would use the opportunity to further the corporate agenda. Even if the UN were in charge, the country in question would be dished out to corporations. Until we end corporate rule, there can be no benevolent policing of the planet. And even then, the old adage holds- Power Corrupts!

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I laughed at the silly professor
Posted by: Torgo on Apr 7, 2006 8:47 PM   
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The exile is a professor of African history, a learned man whose mind becomes intensely focused when he hears I am an American. "Why can't you Americans overthrow Mugabe?" he asks. "Why can't you save us from our misery?"

I would have soaked the professor with a laughing spray of beer. Why the hell should American families risk their scarce resources on distant strangers who cannot solve their own problems, despite knowing the problems much more intimately? It's just not a smart thing to do.

What does this professor have to offer in exchange for being "saved"? Or does he somehow think I have a guilty conscience and a pathological need to be "loved" by strangers? We are not all like Bush, Clinton, G. Pascal Zachary, etc. Many of us have earned our self-esteem through productive work in our communities and have no need to seek distant monsters to destroy.

To quote John Quincy Adams, America is "the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all [but] the champion and vindicator only of her own."

Fight your own damn battles, and save your own whiny self, professor. The American worker/taxpayer has enough troubles as it is.

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Sounds like a drunk guy at a bar
Posted by: Jan Frel on Apr 7, 2006 11:59 PM   
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Mr. Zachary's intro with the bar scene could have not been more appropriate.

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» RE: Sounds like a drunk guy at a bar Posted by: greggzachary
Regime change: good for the gander!
Posted by: Ronaldo on Apr 8, 2006 12:58 PM   
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Now why wasn't that thought of before!? The USA's military/government leaders have elevated the concept of regime change to such heights, maybe it is time that the rest of the international community adopted it and practised it on the USA! There would be plenty of support from within USA and an international coalition of the willing could easily justify it on grounds of the US government's human rights abuses, abuse of its own citizenry (extremes of wealth amidst a sea of appalling poverty) and danger to world peace with its adoption of unilateralism and preemptive strikes and its poseesion and use of a huge nuclear arsenal with clearly NO interest in disarmament and its clear loss of popular support.
I will suggest to our New Zealand government that they immediately initiate diplomatic moves to form a coalition of the willing to demand regime change in the USA!! :)

Americans and even including its own liberal progressive thinkers seem to be preoccupied with discussing invading and changing OTHER countries and making judgment calls. Why? Because they feel some responsibility for the rest of the world as an international policeman? because they alone have the military might to do something about it? Do the voices of those of us in the rest of the international community not count because we have no military might? I believe the USA needs to examine its own attitudes and think about its moral responsibility to support a collective global approach to matters of global importance. Although I entirely agree with the sentiments expressed re changing some of the despotic totalitarian regimes mentioned, the USA does not have the moral authority to do this by itself. It is time to think about what can be done through an international forum with the sanction and agreement of the INTERNATIONAL community, not what well meaning governments or liberal-minded people could achieve by changing clearly rotten unpopular governments (including that of the USA!). The ends do not justify the means. We need a collective approach to global problems and if human rights are being abused it is up to every person and every government to act collectively. It requires a change of mindset. The problem may well be obvious but the process and means to correct it has to come from a position of moral strength. Stop thinking about which corrupt totalitarian regimes would be better targets for toppling by the US military and start thinking about how we can achieve it collectively. The rest of us outside the borders of the USA want a say in how this world is run!

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arrogance
Posted by: Spot on Apr 10, 2006 7:19 AM   
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pure arrogance. shame on you.

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No more rationalizations for militarism!
Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Apr 10, 2006 9:29 PM   
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I think that it is naïve to believe that any country would invade another country for other than arbitrary reasons. If one takes an honest look at our foreign policy throughout history I’m not sure you could find a singe genuine example of altruism. And I think that external interference is invariably destructive regardless of how it is intended simply because people aren’t Gods, that is, we aren’t competent enough to make decisions about what is in another group of people’s interest and aught to leave other people alone as much as possible. Short of a mandate from a democratic vote among many nations (e.g. from the UN), the invasion of another country is indefensible ALWAYS. Nation Security is assured, no country is a threat to the US and, in fact, the harm from terrorism largely comes from a hysterical reaction to it, not from the actual event. Besides, there’s sod all we can do about the threat from terrorism anyway -- Israel’s draconian “security” measures are a disastrous failure, e.g.

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Is this an april fool, joke?
Posted by: brianct on Apr 24, 2006 6:50 PM   
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What neocolonial cheek!
What gives you the right to decide which givts to overthrow? What do you really know of Zimbabwe, its history, or the present efforts of the UK/US by backing Mugabe's opponents to increase their power and presence in Zimbabwe? Mugabe knows that MDC is backed by the UK/US.
Zimbabwe wsa not the breadbasket for black zimbabweans who were thrown off the best land, which was then used by cashcropping white farmers.
I suggest you get better informed and stopped being an unwitting patsy of the neocolonial powers.
You can start here with Greg Elich's: Zimbabwe Under Siege:
www.swans.com/library/art8/elich004.html

Brian

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