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Why We Let an Atheist Join Our Church

By Rev. Jim Rigby, AlterNet. Posted April 1, 2006.


Efforts to connect are crucial in a world where there seems not to be a lot of wood to build the bridges we need.

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(Editor's Note: For background on this essay, read "Why I Am A Christian (Sort Of)," by Robert Jensen.)

After years of advocacy for progressive causes, I am used to angry mail -- often from fellow Christians -- when I take a political or theological position that challenges conservative or fundamentalist views.

So I wasn't surprised when many were unhappy about the decision of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin, Texas, where I am the pastor, to let a self-professed atheist become a member. But the intensity and tone of the condemnations were surprising; this wave of mail feels different, more desperate, like people have been backed against a wall.

Ironically, the new member, a longtime leftist political activist and professor in Austin, has been getting mail from fellow atheists skeptical of his decision.

"How can you do this?" both sides are asking.

To me they ask, "How can you let someone join the church who cannot affirm the divinity of Christ? Does nothing matter to you liberals?" To Robert Jensen they ask, "How, as an atheist, can you surrender your mind to a superstitious institution that birthed the Inquisition and the Crusades?"

Neither the church nor Jensen views his membership as surrendering anything, but instead as an attempt to build connections. Such efforts are crucial in a world where there seems not to be a lot of wood to build the bridges we need. And the shame is, while we fight among ourselves, the world is burning.

In my ministry, I have had to live in two worlds. I have spiritual friends who are trying to celebrate the mystery of life and activist friends who are trying to change the world. Somehow these two enterprises have been separated, but I don't believe either option represents a complete life. Apolitical spirituality runs the danger of giving charity instead of justice, while atheistic humanism runs the danger of offering facts instead of meaning. This divide between spirituality and activism is a betrayal of the deeper roots of both.

The Book of James argues that merely believing in the existence of God means nothing; he jokes that even the demons believe that. Some of the meanest people I have ever met believed in God. The Nazis marched across Europe with belts reading "God is with us," singing some of the same hymns and reciting some of the same creeds the church uses today. With a few notable exceptions, the German church hid in liturgy and theology while their brothers and sisters burned.

It's been interesting to see that atheists can be just as narrow-minded as believers. Some of Jensen's critics expressed an infallible belief that religious people like me are idiots by definition. Inflexible beliefs on matters where one has no experience is superstition whether one is a believer or in an atheist.

Atheism can become self-parody when it forms a rigid belief system about religion. There is a difference between true atheism and anti-theism. Atheism can be the naked pursuit of truth, but anti-theism is more often the adolescent joy of upsetting and mocking religious people.

I can understand the urge to make fun of religious people; many of the voices that speak for religion make me want to crawl under the table. But we also must remember that Stalinists -- claiming to be atheistic materialists -- were as savage and superstitious as the inquisitors.

Without religion we would eliminate some of the worst chapters in human history brought on by the religious inquisitors and religious terrorists. But we would also eliminate some of history's best chapters. Imagine a world with no Gandhi, no Martin Luther King, and no Dorothy Day.

Some people argue that evolution disproves religion. I would say that evolution helps us understand why religion is inevitable in human beings. Our upper brain functions are built on top of a marshy swamp of animal instincts, and we are rational only in spurts. Much of our most important processes are irrational, even more are unconscious altogether. To say we will be purely scientific and objective is an act of imaginary dissociation from the liquid core of our own being. In Sartre's words it is "bad faith."

Advertisers know this swampy core and sell to it. Televangelists know this swampy core and manipulate it. Politicians know this swampy core and appeal to it. While progressives are trying to be purely logical, propagandists are playing that irrational core like a drum.

If there's hope of saving the world from the clutches of propaganda it will not be because we refute it rationally. If we save our world it will be because we learned how to speak about personal meaning in a way that is adaptive to natural processes and compatible with universal human rights. Nothing else will do. Hegel defined religion as putting philosophy into pictures. Strange and foreboding topics like hermeneutics and metaphysics can be taught to almost anyone if they are put in story form. While it is important not to accept these images literally, it is just as important not to reject them literally.

Because life is an ineffable mystery, religion speaks in pictures and symbols. To accept or reject the symbols literally is to miss the point from two different sides. Those who fight over whether God exists are like foolish pedestrians who praise or curse a red light as they step into oncoming traffic. The question isn't whether God exists like a brick exists, but rather "what part of our experience does the symbol 'God' reveal and what parts does it obscure?"

The problem with most religious discussions is that we are usually swimming in a sea of undefined terms. What sense does it make to ask whether God exists if we don't define what we mean by the term "God." For some it's easier to reconcile themselves to the universe by picturing a large person overseeing the process, while others reconcile themselves to the ground by using impersonal elemental images. These approaches are in conflict only when we forget what we are trying to do in the first place, which is to harmonize with the ground of our being.

Locke and Kant struggled to identify the ultimate categories that shape human perception, which is also the business of religion. We cannot think about being itself because it is too basic. We are like flowers that emerge out of a soil too primordial to be understood in plant terms; we can neither speak about the ground of our being nor ignore it. Religion is a kind of art that reconciles us to the ground from which we emerge.

As William James pointed out, religion is not merely hypothetical opinion about the world. Religion is most essentially a decision to be engaged in a world that cannot be understood and offers no guarantees. "God" is a symbol of the truth that stands outside our widest context. "God" is a symbol of the reality deeper than our ultimate concern. "God" is a symbol of the mystery that lies between the poles of our clearest rational dichotomy. The point is not to affirm the reality of the symbol itself, but to affirm the reality to which the symbol points.

Part of the apoplexy triggered by Robert Jensen came from his statement that he was joining our church for "political reasons." If one defines politics as partisan wrangling, then Jensen's comments can be seen as calculating and manipulative, but if politics is about how we treat each other, then he is joining the church for the same reason the apostles did -- to help save our world.

The religion of Jesus is both spiritual and political. Jesus said in his first sermon that he had come to preach good news to the poor. He taught that love fulfills the law and the prophets, and spoke of a coming movement of God that would lift up the poor and oppressed. Jesus let a doubter like Thomas serve that cause long before the disciple could affirm any creed. Jesus said that people who blaspheme him or God would be forgiven, but those who blaspheme the Spirit (of love) would not be. Religion is not about groveling before a savior, it's joining in the work of saving our world.

One last irony is that early Christians were sometimes accused of being atheists. Like true Muslims and Jews, the early Christians refused to worship human images of God. While I have nothing against the creeds per se, if they do not sing of a love for all humankind, they are evil and must be renounced as idolatrous. Surely the essence of Christianity or any religion is not found in dogma but in the life of love of which the creeds sing. If God had wanted us to simply recite creeds, Jesus would have come as a parrot.

Is there still room in the church for Thomas? Doubters are an essential part of the team. The atheism of Ingersoll and Kropotkin is very much like the mysticism of Schweitzer and Dorothy Day. In fact, I cannot help but imagine they would all join in common cause to serve our world had they lived at the same place and time.

"Whoever has love has God." That's what the Bible says. So the question before my church was not whether Jensen could recite religious syllables like a cockatiel, but whether he would follow the core teachings of Jesus and learn more and grow more into Christ's universal love of which the creeds sing. This he pledged to do.

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Jim Rigby is pastor of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin, Texas.

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The Critical Core of Christianity
Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 1, 2006 1:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The absolute core of the the Christian Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as who and what He said He is. Everything else follows from that foundation. Without that, membership in any church is just joining an organization. Without an abiding faith in Jesus Christ any church is just a group of people.

I do not say this because of the teachings or doctrine of any particular group, teacher or denomination. I say this because anyone who reads the gospels honestly and without some desire or need to bend it to their way of thinking will see this. Jesus Christ said many things, but was insistent upon being the divine Son of God and the only way provided by God to a restored relationship with Him.

During His ministry among people in the flesh, Jesus did many things but had a central purpose-- to reveal to all that God had provided a way to be restored to the relationship God made us for. To be in the church (the body of Christ Followers) one must first accept the teachings of Jesus Christ to be true. Membership in a local assembly is another matter.

All churches and all Christians should welcome all who wish to peacefully assemble and participate, regardless of their personal theology or lack thereof. The best case for the Christian Faith is that of a redeemed life. Nobody has to ask if you are a Christ Follower if you are walking closely with God-- it simply shows.

My only protest is that someone who joins a church thinking that joining a body on a public profession of faith that they deny does not make one a Christian. Joining a Church-- any Church-- no more makes me a Christian than buying a Piano makes me a Pianist. The potential is there, but nothing has happened yet.

Peace

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» RE: The Critical Core of Christianity Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: ebongreen Posted by: NoPCZone
» We're all divine. - Jesus Posted by: ebongreen
Why not...
Posted by: Nigelthebrit on Apr 1, 2006 3:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...just let Jensen enrol as a member, and let the workings of the Holy Spirit take its course? That's the way it worked with me.

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» It's so sad... Posted by: SeverelyJaded
» RE: Why not... Posted by: Fat
Just saying
Posted by: owlbear1 on Apr 1, 2006 3:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.stsci.edu/ftp/science/hdf/hdf.html

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Good for you!
Posted by: Urstrly on Apr 1, 2006 3:59 AM   
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I remember my small hometown's sole self-proclaimed atheist with great affection. He would have been a marvelous addition to any church, but instead he was a target of evangelists who denounced him and littered his front porch with tracts. My mother told me to quit worrying about his soul: he loved Bach.

I left the Southern Baptist church in the late sixties after we failed to live up to the challenge of the civil rights era, denounced feminists and purged our seminaries of real scholars. If people think that would make Jesus happy, I must disagree. In the Unitarian Universalist church I joined, all pledge to join in a free search for truth and meaning. That might not satisfy a lot of Christians, but some of us find it invigorating.

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It's not head knowledge-it's HEART WISDOM that matters
Posted by: eileenflmng on Apr 1, 2006 4:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
President Bush claims Jesus is his favorite Philosopher.

If more Christians followed the PHILOSOPHY of Christ and quit judging where another one is at in their spiritual journey, it would change the world over night.

Thomas Jefferson agreed with Tolstoy that the Christian Church had supplanted the Sermon on the Mount/THE BEATITUDES with the Nicene Creed to create a system of beliefs that Jesus himself wouldn't have recognized, much less laid claim to."-Eric Reese, p.34 HARPERS Dec. 2005

The Philosophy of Christ

1. Be just: justice comes from virtue which comes from the heart.
2. Treat people the way we want to be treated.
3. Always work for PEACEFUL resolutions, even to the point of returning violence with COMPASSION.
4. Consider valuable the things that have no material value.
5. Do not judge others.
6. Do not bear grudges.
7. Be modest and unpretentious.
8. Give out of true generosity, not because we expect to be repaid.
9. Being true to one's self in more important than being loyal to one's family...those who think they know the most are the most ignorant......

excerpted from WAWA Blog March 1, 2006
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

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Bob Stanley
Posted by: granliden on Apr 1, 2006 4:53 AM   
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Three cheers for Rigby and Jensen. These are the kind of ideas we need if we are going to save our country.
The Unitarian-Universalist church encompasses many of the thoughts in this article with its acknowledgement of its Christian roots while accepting people of all beliefs whether Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist or Agnostic.

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Shouldn't belief matter?
Posted by: osage on Apr 1, 2006 5:26 AM   
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Most organizations, churches included, are built around a common belief. Their by-laws or liturgy usually includes some relatively brief composition that begins “I (we) believe that ….” and goes on to list the basic tenets of the organization.

That a person can join (or be allowed to join) without accepting and professing those basic beliefs is indicative of an abandonment of principles. Such organizations and individuals have little, if any, real meaning or value.

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perhaps you can all work together...
Posted by: kablooie on Apr 1, 2006 5:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...to do the world a favor by de-bunking the Book of Revelations. Apparently, the current administration is using it as a foreign-policy manual, to the detriment of all life on Earth.

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» Here you go, made to order... Posted by: SeverelyJaded
An atheist responds
Posted by: Moonray on Apr 1, 2006 5:50 AM   
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To answer the above commenter, no, belief doesn't matter much in religion. It never has. Religion is more about socializing -- people stroking each other with words and official gestures -- than any theological concern. That's why religious folks are so adept at rationalizing the many contradictions of supposedly holy scriptures and the total lack of logic and common sense in religious dogma.

Religion is indeed based in our "swampy core," as the writer puts it. It's all about fear and trying to ward off the mysterious forces that threaten us every day. Formal religion began when some Stone Age charlatan realized that he could use this fear to wield power over others. The descendants of that Stone Age charlatan are still very much at work today.

When atheists question the outrageous fairy tales, distortions and lies that comprise religious dogma, they are accused of being malicious and adolescent. That's nothing new. When scientists have proved that religious concepts are wrong -- as did Copernicus, Galileo and Darwin -- they risked far worse treatment from the religious establishment.

The older I get, the sadder I find it that grown-up people have to rely on these primitive coping methods to get through life. In the end, I suspect, religion will be the end of us all -- especially now that the "devout" in Iran, Pakistan and elsewhere are arming themselves with nuclear weapons.

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» RE: An atheist responds Posted by: nim1
» RE: An atheist responds Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: An atheist responds Posted by: Doubtom
otto
Posted by: otto on Apr 1, 2006 7:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm with you. We need to build bridges and open doors, not see how we can exclude those who don't seem to measure up...that process too often becomes highly subjective. I was an active Catholic priest for 30 years before leaving (with permission) to get married. It was always painful and frustrating to have "two groups of people" to deal with - the Churchy ones and those interested in justice and making a better world. Even St. Thomas Aquinas, accused of being such a rationalist, felt that what we say about God is usually more wrong than right because God goes so far beyond our human capacity to understand or describe. I have had great cooperative relationships with atheist friends who razzed me about my religion as I did them about their "Godless outlook". And what does it reallly mean to "belong" to a particular Church? Do we exclude anyone from coming to our services, or being part of our hopefully loving community? For me the Mystical Body of Christ is a mosaic of all us little and different colored stones. I like the term "anonymous Christians" even if my Church doesn't. Jesus often spoke of "outsiders" entering the Kingdom before many of the chosen, and I don't think He meant Gentile Christians as opposed to members of the Jewish faith.

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Another atheist responds
Posted by: EY on Apr 1, 2006 8:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you, Pastor, for writing this article. I still lean towards atheism, but I accept your belief that God is love and that God is a symbol too deep for any of us to comprehend. Unfortunately, I think you are in the minority. It seems that most (or, at least, the loudest) Christians believe that God is an authority figure ready to strike down heretics at a moment's notice. Even moderate Christians recite from the Bible as if it's the final word. This view of God I do not accept. So atheists may seem hard-headed, but that is because we are arguing with religious folks who are equally hard-headed.

I'll align myself with those Christians who truly believe that God accepts everyone and who wish to better this world by helping those less fortunate.

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» RE: Another atheist responds Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Another atheist responds Posted by: Aussie Kim
irishhombre
Posted by: irishhombre on Apr 1, 2006 8:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Atheist Bob Jensen and believer Jim Rigby along with the Church of St. Andrews in Austin, Texas are on a journey together. They all share the starting point of the journey, that Jesus shows the way of peace and justice in today’s world and hope for its future. They apparently do not share the same intellectual assent to the Book of Confessions of the Presbyterian Church. Will they do so at some point on the journey? Hopefully. Is such assent necessary to begin to journey together? It may not be, if we agree with Jesus’ comments on religiosity in His own time, “Those who say, “Lord, Lord” will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but those who do the will of my Father.” Journey on together!

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» RE: irishhombre Posted by: Gwenjo
» RE: irishhombre Posted by: Gwenjo
WHAT ABOUT UNIVERSAL ETHICS AS THE COMMON GROUND?
Posted by: change-agent-denver on Apr 1, 2006 9:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kudos to the professor for being the one to step forward with the intention of building bridges.

But there are several missing links here...there seems to be a fundamental assumption that you're either athiest or Christian. And there are PLENTY of deeply spiritual, ethical people out there who simply have no interest in organized religious, given its corruption, anti-woman tendencies, dogma and history of violence, intolerance and abuses. Jesus would be rolling over in his grave at the actions that have been done "in his name" over the centuries.

This hypocrisy is a major reason why many activists revile Christianity.

There also is a not-so-subtle arrogance to the Christian religion which is another turn-off. Why, for example, does this professor have to be "let into a church" despite his atheism? As the change agent who's building bridges, he should be honored for what he's trying to do; instead, he was "let in." Why are the Christians not reaching out to build bridges, WITHOUT expecting people who are trying to work with them to be "saved by Christ." At the core, evangelism is still the intent.

Here is a suggestion of a better approach to building bridges that does not involve everybody morphing over to Christianity, and it is this:

At the core of most organized religions, beyond the dogma written by humans, beyond the myths, lie a set of essential ethical guidelines. THAT is the basis for common ground, and that is what we should be discussing -- as a way to make sure we inject compassion, ethics and heart-based thinking into policy decisions and governing.

That basic set of values -- a universal moral code, if you will -- is what really should be the basis for building common ground -- not just between atheists,anti-theists and Christians, but between people of all belief systems, creeds and colors.

And that activity should be taking place on neutral ground -- NOT at a Christian church.

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Why I believe
Posted by: constantreader on Apr 1, 2006 10:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe in God because I know that I swing my feet over the side of the bed each morning and dangle them over an abyss. Anything can happen in the course of a day - earthquakes, hurricanes, the death of someone close and important to you. Reason and logic are great gifts, and I celebrate the capacity I received as a human being. But they don't seem to be enough to give me the strength to put one foot in front of the other and do the best I can do each day. I know my life is in God's hands, and therefore I am content. I would welcome Mr. Jensen to my church in hope that he would find comfort, courage and wisdom from God at a time when his own resources are not sufficient. That doesn't make me a dogmatic Christian - I figure that a God big enough to merit my trust is too big for a single name or story.

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» Sorry, that's not sane Posted by: Moonray
» RE: Sorry, that's not sane Posted by: constantreader
» RE: Sorry, that's not sane Posted by: txjill
» Why I don't believe Posted by: morticia
Why I Am (Not ) a Christian
Posted by: capainter45 on Apr 1, 2006 10:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I misread the editors notes to read, “Why I Am Not a Christian” a book I read decades ago by Bertrand Russell. So thank you because I think I will read it again.

It would seem that our writer has his hands full with his congregations and their non-Christian and ridged attitude. I have tried may organized religions and found the same sad state in each. But, he could start by the connection of his new political fellow with teaching a new ways to look and learn from this ridged old text written by Political Men. That could keep them all busy for a lifetime. His atheist friend was honest enough to say he joined for political reason but I am not sure exactly what he fully meant. I would put this question to the rest of the group. Go home and ask yourself truthfully, why you REALLY felt the need to join this group.

In the meantime, I am putting my money on the calm heads in the math/science groups to bring our two worlds of religion and science joyfully together. Has anyone ever heard of or read “The Dancing Wu Li Masters” An Overview of the New Physics. By Gary Zukav? Hopefully, this nutral group can point, to a thing that is bigger then what we mortals now want to believe in, for our own protective needs and fears. But if there is something out there willing to be called “God”, I hope he/she/it believes in fun more then fear. If he/she/it showed up in a white nightshirt, I’ll be sure of a sense of humor. What silly things we humans are fussing over our way or the Hwy idieologies. Just for fun, lets meet for lunch on the other side of time and space and talk more then.

Einstein is purported to have said that he was an agnositc because he was not informed enough to be an atheist.

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Holding back the tide of the New Dark Age
Posted by: wli on Apr 1, 2006 12:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On the one hand, this article talks about the "swampy core" of unconscious processes that might as well be the domain of physics or biology. On the other, it talks about some kind of outreach and defeat of propaganda. This paradoxical perspective speciously grants religion more legitimacy than it deserves and even goes about a quick and dirty defense of religion to boot.

There is a false assumption that free will exists to be abdicated in the exercise of religion as opposed to the essential fact on the ground that people are, despite whatever empathy we may have for them, chemical automata whose "control systems" are such verbal ploys as religion. There is a false assumption that there is a struggle to overcome propaganda and a tension between innate human characteristics and irrationality, which falls apart quite rapidly as rationalizaton is wholly subordinate to these irrational processes.

These preposterous characterizations of religion as anything with inherent meaning are frankly counterproductive. One would be better served by thinking of religious adherents as mindless robots taken over by a computer virus whose source code is religious rhetoric. It's a gross oversimplification but it's vastly more productive a starting point than this sort of blather.

From such a viewpoint one can begin to discuss viral memes, the resolution of cognitive dissonance with thought-terminating clichés, belief propagation, and other specific psychological ploys to be disrupted or utilized. From here it becomes particularly obvious that showing up in church and proclaiming yourself an atheist is self-defeating. The overt declaration of unbelief immunizes your target audience against your message. The real work to do here is figuring out how to crack the defensive walls of religion, which thus far have proven uncannily resistant to any and all countervailing ideology. You would be better served by studying psychology and memetic engineering, then devising memes and enacting strategies for spreading them in order to counteract the religious right's influence.

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Religion Ain't the Problem
Posted by: picaresque on Apr 1, 2006 3:33 PM   
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I'm an atheist who worked for a Catholic non-profit for the past 5 years. I met many admirable activists and people working very hard to make their community a better place. That was what attracted me to the organization in the first place. They were very open to including people from other faiths in their work, and even tolerant of us atheists. That kind of community building is what is positive about religion, IMHO.

The problem is fundamentalism, of any stripe, meaning taking the text of a religion as absolute truth, and the sense that your community of enlightened co-religionists are an embattled minority against the hordes of evil, ignorant sinners. We atheists are as guilty of that kind of fundamentalism as anyone (see some of the more extreme hypotheses of evolutionary psychology, for example).

What can be the uniting factor between non-fundamentalist atheists & religionists, as exemplified in this article, is compassion. That is the thing missing from the rhetoric of the Religious Right.

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Progressive Religion.
Posted by: dirkster42 on Apr 1, 2006 4:19 PM   
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For people who are new to the idea that religious people can be liberal/progressive, or anyone who wants to explore the ideas further, I've put together a little list of reading materials here.

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» RE: Progressive Religion. Posted by: awakeallready
Another atheist speaks up...
Posted by: Warren on Apr 1, 2006 7:40 PM   
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I regard the choice of a spiritual belief system to be entirely an individual matter, which is why, as an atheist, I have no problem with the existence of Gaia, gods, great spirits, cosmic muffins, universal drones or for that matter an Abrahamic ubermensch. I refer to myself as a "Bohr Atheist," after Bohr's famous comment that while he himself was not superstitious, the lucky horseshoe he had nailed over his office door worked whether he believed in it or not.

I am not an atheist because I believe that "there is no god," but because all of us have choices in the matter of what to believe and what to believe in...and I've read the promotional literature from lots of the various Abrahamic afterlife programs and none of it makes me want to join up. What happens to me after I die is my decision, and I don't want to spend eternity in any of the various heavens they're offering.

I love the idea that there are as many ways for humans to experience the spirit as there are humans. If God existed, wouldn't It be pleased by an endless variety in the ways of Its subjects? Jensen's found an equation that works perfectly for him, and it's important to note that (like the Christians I like) he's not saying that his way is the desirable way for anyone else to believe. The religious folk I don't like are the ones who won't be happy until I believe what they believe, and manifest my beliefs in the same way.

Rigby and Jensen please me greatly. Good luck to them all!

Warren

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» Thanks for the sane comment. Posted by: dirkster42
Thank you . . .
Posted by: yesman on Apr 1, 2006 9:24 PM   
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for having the courage to be thoughtful, compassionate and humane, when so many (on both sides) seem to prefer conflict and condemnation. The old, dogmatic notions of religion are fading away, and we are witness to the trauma of their death throes.

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Why buy the cow if the milk's free?
Posted by: GreenLibbie on Apr 2, 2006 7:30 AM   
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There are, IMO, a couple of reasons why the Christians are angry about Jensen (former Fundie here). Jensen is getting the "milk" --i.e., the benefits of fellowship--free, while at the same time he is not truly placing himself under their control by buying into their belief system. When you come right down to it, the church can't really control a person without that person's consent (similar to how Eleanor Roosevelt observed that "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent.") The rebellious spirit represented by the Atheist makes those Christians who hunger and thirst for worldly power *furious*... see, especially to the more fundamentalist Christians, the "Atheist" is the ultimate rebel, the ultimate "unsubmissive."

To those who fear Chaos, Order must be imposed at all costs (at least externally). At the end of the day, though, Jensen is really still a "free agent"--he retains his right to be skeptical and to question the authority of both the Christian deity and the church's earthly organizational structure.

While some Christians bitterly denounce the intellectual freedom of the Atheist, they also secretly crave it. Those Christians are like the bully kid on the playground who breaks another kid's toy--if the bully can't have the toy for himself, by golly, no one else is going to have it, either.

Die gedanken sind frei.

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» RE: Why buy the cow if the milk's free? Posted by: LoveYourEnemies
A Most Thoughtful Discussion
Posted by: lynnejane on Apr 2, 2006 10:46 AM   
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I am having a difficult time getting started here, because I am still in awe. This article and the following comments are the best coming together of spirituality I have ever been inspired by. I, too, have been seeking the "fellowship of man" and have not stepped forward because I am an agnostic. I feel that no one has the right to put forward a dogmatic belief system based on faith or "not knowing." I mean, have they ever considered what it might mean if they were wrong? And that their faithful beliefs make others wrong?

In the past I have been a Christian, athiest, and Jew by Choice. I have relatives who are Bible students, so I grew up on the stories and attitudes. I know and use the philosophies of Christ, Buddha, and Ghandi. But I couldn't be dogmatic about any of it.

The main article has given me a whole new way of looking at participation without dogma. With the comment string, I think it provides the curriculum of a very thought provoking course in comparative spirituality. It should be published on paper.

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Ten Commandments of the Church of Sanity & Reason
Posted by: alblazo on Apr 2, 2006 6:14 PM   
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When something to "believe in" is needed, try this.

Thou shalt worship only reason

Thou shalt abstain from invoking dieties in the affairs of man

Thou shalt disdain all ritual

Thou shalt scorn priestliness

Thou shalt loathe superstition

Thou shalt reject all forms of spiritualism and supernaturalism

Thou shalt regard skepticism as a virtue

Thou shalt reject racism

Thou shalt reject all claims to a moral authority greater than man

Thou shalt, in word and action, strive to improve the human condition

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atheists
Posted by: gonzomax on Apr 2, 2006 7:36 PM   
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Wars are fought in the name of religions.We are possibly beggining a huge war between religions that will take believers and non believers with them.Atheusts are well aware of the beliefs of others.We were usually raised in a background which promoted it.It is the hypocracy of the faithful that starts people questioning.It is the actions of the religious thatu ltimately turn us away.
The non beliecvers threaten nobody.We want freedom FROM religeon.Some people just can't escape their initial programming.You have nothing to fear from an atheist.We are damn afraid of you.

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» RE: atheists Posted by: Aussie Kim
Kudos!
Posted by: CovertRage on Apr 2, 2006 8:31 PM   
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Not all who have followed Jesus have always believed in Him or adhered to His ways and teachings. Some were there for healing, fishes and loaves, sight, and what ever else they assumed could be gained from tagging along. Thomas would only to come to truly believe later on. Peter would deny Him. The sons of Thunder wanted seats on both sides of His throne in eternity. And Judas, when he couldn't subvert His message for gain, sold Him out for the price of a slave for the day. So, that an athiest has joined the church is nothing new under this sun. What is commendable is that believers have not cast him out or turned him away. This pastor is like Jesus in that whosoever wishes to follow Jesus is welcome without this pastor's judgemental interferrence. If the true believers will simply get the message right and out there, Jesus Himself will do the drawing. And, then, if those drawn don't feel the compulsion to in the Christian vineyard, well, so be it. After all, Jesus Himself said in the parables that not everyone who entered His vineyard was going to remain until payday. Folks sometime get bored, miss their old orchards, realize they never should have left their gods in the groves, lust for vegetables fruits not available in the Christian vineyard, find gleaning in the vineyard to be too taxing for wages of just a penny, and so forth. Hey, God will be the final judge.

The point is, irregardless of whether one stays or leaves, the real Christian Vineyard is no less open to all to make the same penny salary. No one is forcing anyone to enter nor restraining anyone once there. True Christianity, unlike many of the cult fraudulently naming Jesus, is open to all. The message of Jesus, however, has not chnaged in two millenia. Thus, whosever will, welcome!

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Michaeltone
Posted by: Michaeltone on Apr 2, 2006 8:48 PM   
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Thanks to Jensen and Rigby for the tribal comedy. They're both dupes, but not for the reasons their critics have cited. (** = my comments)

Jensen:
"Such a claim implies that an interpretation of the Bible can be cordoned off as truth-beyond-challenge. But what if the Bible is more realistically read symbolically and not literally? What if... Christ's claim to being the son of God [is] simply a way of conveying fundamental moral principles? What if the resurrection is metaphor? What if "God" is just the name we give to the mystery... beyond our ability to comprehend...?"

**The writers of most of the canonical New Testament texts, and those who debated and selected the canon, and all the apologists, and all those who fought "heresy," were convinced that salvation lay in precisely the most literal, non-symbolical, anti-metaphorical reading of the texts. The only possible (and partial) exceptions are the books attributed to John: his Gospel, 3 letters, and the Revelation. But John's mysticism is yet based in belief in the historical intervention of God in Christ. So there's no point in promoting another way of reading the Bible. Might as well read old newspapers for hints of the "real" facts they "meant" to convey. Read a Toyota shop manual to fix a 747.

"The task of religion, paradoxically, is to bring into being a world based on the universal values... [of] compassion, empathy, solidarity, dignity. Such a world would be... based on love and... solidarity, a world in which we would take seriously the claim that all people have exactly the same value."

**But religion is tribal, not universal. It is founded on the acknowledgement that the creation of this kind of "universal values" world is not possible. And if it were, it would be bad for the tribe. Revelation is full of warnings about the one-world government; the anti-Christ is precisely a world uniter that makes everybody say, "Yay, peace and safety!" This threatens the true believer, because it excludes his tribal god.

Noble intentions, little insight into people or the rubrics of religion.

Rigby:
"Locke and Kant struggled to identify the ultimate categories that shape human perception, which is also the business of religion. We cannot think about being itself because it is too basic. We are like flowers... [in that] we can neither speak about the ground of our being nor ignore it. Religion... reconciles us to the ground from which we emerge... As William James pointed out... Religion is most essentially a decision to be engaged in a world that cannot be understood and offers no guarantees. "God" is a symbol of the truth that stands outside our widest context... "God" is a symbol of the mystery that lies between the poles of our clearest rational dichotomy. The point is not to affirm the reality of the symbol itself, but to affirm the reality to which the symbol points."

**All this pretty talk begs the question of the adaptive value of belief in the supernatural. "Being itself" is not too basic to think about! It's too SCARY to think about, without gods to uphold the base. What if there's no giant turtle holding California on its back? Then we're on our own. Church mystery is only rationalized denial, to cover the fear and unsophisticated denial of the tribe, which finds itself too vulnerable in face of a harsh material world and other desperate tribes.

The pastor denies reality, and the realistic activist is unrealistic in this regard, to expect universalism in church. He is at odds with these people over what and who is worth saving. Note the letters of complaint from both sides are writen from a self-interested tribal perspective. And both Rigby and Jensen are saying, I can use this guy to strengthen MY tribe. Like the first posted comment I saw: Let the guy join us, the Holy Spirit will take him over.

Hilarious!

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» RE: Michaeltone Posted by: dirkster42
» RE: Michaeltone Posted by: am con
» RE: Michaeltone Posted by: Michaeltone
Atheist or Christian, I don't care...
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Apr 2, 2006 8:54 PM   
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...but what I DO loathe is use of the word "birthed". People like that would never be allowed into any church that I was in charge of.

Or maybe this is hell, which would explain why people like this seem to be appearing more and more often in my part of the universe. ;)

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More wedge issues politics! More religion! More feminism! More race and gender politics! DIVIDE US!
Posted by: cry0fan on Apr 3, 2006 4:22 PM   
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Just take a good long look at the content on sites like Alternet. Alternet represents very well the core of liberal American establishment politics. Over time, you tell me how many articles you see that talk about pure populist economics. How about articles are about universal healthcare, about mandatory 35 hour weeks, about mandatory 6 weeks/year vacation, about extending the payments to the unemployed, about stopping the flood of cheap 3rd world scab immigrant labor? How many articles on these liberal websites about making the tax structure more progressive? These are the core of populist economics. These issues unite the lower and middle class American voters, and not divide by race and gender.

What percent of the articles here on Alternet and other similar liberal websites are about these uniting populist economics issues?

Now, how many articles about religion, about feminism, about race? How many articles FAVOR immigration?

Our American left is not a true left. It is a false left. This false left is what was born of the millions of dollars spent by the rich and megacorporations on the nonprofit foundations and think tanks. THey started these as propaganda organs to pay off writers and activists to build--over decades--a leftist philosophy that would be harmless to the upper classes.

This false left concentrates on wedge issues politics and mostly stays away from bread and butter economics issues that speak to American voters against race and gender and culture lines.

Read Joan Roelofs book "Mask Of Pluralism." Or just Google "Mask Of Pluralism" and "multiculturalism." There are some extensive reviews.

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I thought this quote may apply well here
Posted by: benhamin on Apr 5, 2006 6:17 PM   
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--The difference between theists and atheists:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Quoting Stephen Roberts

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Well said, Jim
Posted by: am con on Apr 7, 2006 8:00 PM   
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A great story and a much needed discussion for our world! I have little expectation that many people in the fundamentalist camps of anti-religion and anti-secular will ever be open to it and they are so populous right now. But, perhaps I will be wrong! Wouldn't that be great? Perhaps the schism created by the horrors of the early 20th century can be mended and more people can embrace a truly liberal world theology. By the way, you are all always welcome in any UU church, and you can be a guest your whole life, if you wish.

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Atheist In Church?
Posted by: YANIRA06_66 on May 23, 2006 11:37 AM   
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Why would any self-respecting Atheist be in Church? Of course, this is utter nonsense. Something akin to "no Atheist in a foxhole." Yes, I'm a Freethinker! The only time I have been to a church was to participate in a Church-State Debate. There is simply no reason for a nonbeliever to join a Church!

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