While I'm not denying Pat Buchanan and his buddies are racist (don't know enough about Tancredo or Sensenbrenner to comment but I would not be surprised), you have to consider that large numbers of workers willing to work for low wages are going to depress wages in these industries by supply and demand, and make unionization harder. C'mon, the business community is for immigration--you said it yourself. Isn't that something we should be paying attention to?

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This is one more instance of the Bushies and their supporters bashing folks from other countries. Will the Bushies ever stop this nonsense which is growing anti-American sentiment worldwide?

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Its that simple. Its us being invaded. We didn't go to their countries and try to take their jobs away from their kids and entry level people or low skilled Americans? What about our own citizens?

Frankly, that piece of legislation wasn't about the politicians, its about the Americans who are pressuring them to stop this wholesale slaughter of our nation economically. You have no idea the millions who are being coordinated by a group that is very effective in getting us all to call, fax and phone to stop this rampant ravaging of our nation and its economic foundation.

Its not about rascism, its about globalizing a one world work force at subsistance level wages. We are in the fight for our economic lives and if you don't see it, then your not affected and probably couldn't care less.

if you don't address this issue that affects working class Americans then you won't win marching by the thousands. You will be arrested for violating our laws and prancing around like Bush thinking its ok to flout our nations laws.

If they would break the law by coming here illegally, then they will break other laws and then we will dinintegrate into chaos and anarchy. Forget it. I won't cooperate with this whole movement.

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Objecting to the uncontrolled mass influx of illegals is not necessarily conservative or racist. The reason so many conservative corporatists support all of these illegals is because it is cheap labor that keeps the wages low on jobs in the US that can't be off shored. This is called inshoring. Inshoring and off shoring are attacks on unions and the middle class. Please quit being such lop sided and "predictable" liberal.

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Only when immigrants want to be American and play by the rules should they be a part of our society. That means applying for and earning legal immigrant status.
They should Pay their fair share of taxes, speak English and wrap themselves in American flags, any one else should be promptly ejected to make room for those that will.
It would be interesting to know how many of these marchers are paying social security taxes, unemployment taxes, or registered for the draft? do they consider themselves Americans, or do they believe they should get all the benefits of being Americans without having to contribute their fair share?
Any illegal immigrant that believes they are above, or simply disregards our laws should just keep marching right back to where they came from, because they are creating the same conditions in this country that they are trying to escape from in their country of origin in the first place. Would you, who ever you are, want to live in a house without doors? And frankly i am tired of paying almost a third of my wages to support those that are not willing to be Americans in America.

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I'm surprised that AlterNet considers Frank Sharry to be a member of the alternative media. He is a major player in the "open borders" movement that also includes the American Immigration Lawywer's Association, http://www.AILA.org

Available references document the multi-million dollar NIF budget and the inter-relation between AILA and NIF. Frank was also executive director of "Immigration Works."

Chicago March 11, 2006 Demonstration

... Frank Sharry, executive director of the Washington-based
National Immigration Forum, said the Chicago rally would get
the attention of Capitol Hill lawmakers. Sharry's first
reaction when a Chicago participant e-mailed him photos from
his cell phone: "Wow."

Frank Sharry Info

Is This a Fair Fight?
ABP - July 8, 2003. This week, Spanish language TV featured a report from Frank Sharry, who spoke in perfect Spanish. The banner read "Frank Sharry - Ford Foundation." The Ford Foundation has $9.5 billion in assets. It works to keep America's borders open by financing groups such as MALDEF and NCLR. Adding in the virulent anti-American SPLC, and these three groups bring in more than $78 million a year to destroy America's sovereignty. Last year, American Border Patrol's total income was less than $50,000.
Is this a fair fight?

_________

Frank Sharry Profile


Executive director of the National Immigration Forum
Open Borders advocate
Refers to U.S. efforts to enforce immigrant visa compliance as "heavy-handed tactics [that] seem more like the old Soviet Union and South Africa."

Another AILA Connection: www.immigrationforum.org/PrintFriendly.aspx?tabid=732

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I don't believe this is a Repub vs Dem issue...it's seems pretty universal. We do not need to take care of another countries poor. They do.
With 45million American children without health insurance, and aid to the disabled and elderly cut for our own citizens, we don't even have the resources to care for these people.
We have our own poor that everyone seems to forget about.
This is about NAFTA and American corporations making it impossible for the little guy to make a living in Mexico and South Amercian countries.
We let our corporatins rape and pillage other countries in the name of profit, that outsourcing leads to less production jobs here, and then we are expected to believe that the service jobs ought to go to the very people we put out of work in their own country??? I don't think so.
This isn't about racism, it's about common sense.

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In LA, the labor movement has gotten a shot in the arm from hotel workers willing to organize. I'd be willing to accept as a fellow citizen, with full citizen rights, anyone who pays union dues.

That hasn't the proverbial snowball's chance. So far as I can tell, the critical dimension of the immigration issue is whether progressives can agree. I shouldn't be surprised that the acts in Congress have dividing the opposition as a motive. I could point to a hundred other examples of such.

At the moment, my community, where real estate values have been propped up by immigrants willing to live three families in a two bedroom cottage, is coping. That's not likely to continue for long, even if our Asian creditors do not call in our marks.

LA jails are now in a full scale race war, as are LA streets. The housing market is slipping. The bankruptcy bill is now law. Our public schools are struggling. Our public health system is in chaos. And on and on. We are in deep do-do. The question is how do we get our politicians to pay attention.

Hit the streets. It's as old as the Boston Tea Party.

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It won't be long before it's pointless for folks to immigrate to the United States. Most of the good jobs will have moved to their countries and wages will be pretty much the same globally.

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Why would anyone leave their homes in their own countries to come to the USA? Could it be because they cannot earn a decent living in their homelands? Why might that be? Where is the economic development in Mexico and in the Central American states? Aside from maquiladoros (sweatshops) on the Mexican border, evidently not enough to take the pressure off of our southern border.

A "Marshall Plan" to invigorate Latin American national economies could not only relieve the pressure on our own border and labor force, it could revitalize our own machine tool and capital goods sectors. Latin American capital goods have to come from someplace, why not our own "rust belt?"

Instead of IMF and World Bank austerity "conditionalities," sacrificing economic development on the altar of "debt service" and other usurious ripoff scams, all remaining Latin American foreign debt needs to be forgiven as was urged by the late Pope John Paul II. But for usurious IMF and World Bank lending practices that would land any US banker in prison, those countries would have repaid all their foreign loans years ago.

New long term, low interest credit needs to be extended, specificially directed to upgrade of Latin American economic infrastructure and industry. CAFTA and other globalist scams are not working. Aside for gutting the agricultural economy of my state, Louisiana, CAFTA is clearly not providing the national economices in Latin America the development capital to afford their workers sufficient employment opportunities to encourage them to remain at home. Economic development of the ecnomies of Latin America is the best way to deal with illegal immigration.
TagsNOLA

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Those folks from south of the border come here to escape the brutal impoverishment of their own world. And there's no hope for them because their nations, unlike the Good Old U.S. of A., lack real democracy. So here's my plan. George, are you listening?

Invade Mexico! In a campaign of shock and awe, we storm Mexico City. Then we install an interim government, presided over by a U.S. Viceroy, while we prepare for "free" and "open" elections. In the meantime, we take over the mexican oil industry ...

-- Oh, wait! We just tried that in Iraq. Dang!

But seriously folks -- Just think for a minute about who profits from this whole mess. Our corporate overlords have done quite well by having illegal workers in this country. They have mostly accomplished their mission of driving down wages and working conditions for American citizens. Now the illegals can all go home, thank you very much. The nativist politicians can be turned loose against foreigners, mostly to stir up that Republican base, get them distracted from the mess in Iraq, get them turning out at the polls in November to keep American Republican, just like God intended.

Meanwhile, Americans are getting poor and desperate enough that WE'LL do the dirty and dangerous jobs soon enough. (Or we'll join the army.)

Oh, and that 700 mile wall? That's to keep US IN!

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I was going to contribute to Alternet this weekend but since they don't have any balance in their reporting (Neo-Liberal version of Fox) I've decided not to contribute. Alternet, as numen so aptly characterized them is Neo-Liberal, and I have pointed out a number of times when they have shown their true colors. Have you noticed the Disparity of Voices outside the mainstream? And the lack of regular representation of Black women just irks me to no end.

Last night I went to a showing of Good Night and Good Luck followed by a symposium which included a panel of journalist. These journalist were members of the "liberal" news media that included Nick Clooney. I found them to be shills for the industry. Clooney went so far as to say, "I don't think there is a corpirate conspiracy other than to make money." In other words he doesn't think they have a social or political agenda. All media has an agenda, and today media chooses to bonk you over the head with its message. The message of the day is repeated over and over until the parrots are able to spew it verbatim. I have no faith in the credibility of any news medium with only one point of view. I have no faith in a news medium that doesn't look beyond the narrow perimiters it sets, to keep truth from being exposed. Alternet has yet to acknowledge the civil rights violations by the pro-illegal movement, and its proponents. Because if Alternet or any so-called liberal outlet ever really looked at the issue from the ground up, and not from a position of elite myopia, you might find the holes in your position. Like a neocon clinging to WMD you have drowned out the voices of opposition for your truthiness. In three years when the political landscape has remained unchanged don't ask why. The answer lies in the fractured Left's inablility to give voice to its own minority, because the same people who have always known what is best, still think they do.

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Let's put our trust and effort behind corporate America. If we accelerate the outsourcing of American jobs, immigrants will soon realize they have to look elsewhere for work and they'll stop coming here. Then things will be grand.

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"...some Republicans understand that supporting immigrants is good for the country and their party. Sen. McCain of Arizona, a leading contender for the 2008 Republican nomination for president, gets it. So do some of his possible rivals for the Republican nomination, Sens. Sam Brownback of Kansas and Chuck Hagel of Nebraska."

A friend of mine keeps telling me I should watch "A Day Without A Mexican," a film about a day when all Mexicans vanish from Los Angles, CA. and the hapless Anglos are left to do menial labor for themselves. I always ask, "But what about the Chicanos? They're American citizens, aren't they?" That's not the point of the film, however. So one day I will view it.

But why do Senators McCain, Hagel and Brownback support the plight of illegal immigrants from south of the boarder? Because the base economy, agriculture, meat packing, tourism, rests on the backs of Mexicans, Guatemalans, Hondurans and Salvadorans who risk their lives and run the gauntlet of horror for work in substandard conditions for low wages.

It would serve these venal, greedy, stupid racist Republicans right if they get their wish; Build a wall running from California, through the Gadsden Purchase and down the Rio Grande to the Gulf of Mexico. Then who will be left to butcher our hogs, pick our tomatoes and bus our restaurant tables?

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I love Alternet, the essays are a great source of information. But on the issue of illegal immigration their pro immigrant stance is simply wrong. Here is an example of the old liberal sentiments of the 1980s and 1990s being out-of-touch. Other examples include identity-politics and the PC movement that has stifled free speech on campuses across the country. I would advocate a progressive movement that is pro American worker and for legislative reform that puts citizens first.

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Wages have been driven down in agriculture, in hotels, in construction, in factories, and even among
computer programmers in this country on account of cheap labor imported or outsourced. The buying
power of the working poor, and the lower half of the entire wage spectrum, is being destroyed by a
human tidal wave of illegals invading this country.

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I think that the bills will go by the wayside... and it will be up to us, the American people to organize and put a stop to all this nonsense.
I don't care where you are from or your race or your station in life.... NO AMERICAN CITIZEN SHOULD HAVE TO COMPETE WITH ILLEGALS FOR JOBS AND HEALTHCARE.

Yes, most of us who contribute to sites like this one; are progressive minded; but enough is enough. We are a very welcoming people, but allover the United States communities are being destroyed by this activity and not just Black communities... increasingly many of the majority White communities are losing out on this devastating proposition.

I am no way near being a Bush fan or anything like that, in fact I think that HE IS THE WORST president to come along in my life time, and I am 39 years old. But, Bush is not pro illegal per se; he is pro Business and as long as businesses can hire people to work for slave wages and be happy about it; then that is what they are going to do!

Call me insensitive, if you must, but I have gotten to a point where I believe that we have to start thinking of ourselves first, and this spills over into getting out of Iraq and letting them deal with their own issues.

Companies who hire illegals will close if we decide as a nation not to support them. If you go to a store and they have illegals working in them...walk out.

In some of the midwestern states they are asking now when they call for home repairs who is doing the work, if illegals are doing it they keep shopping.

Again, I don't care who is here, but it is obvious that it matters how they got here and what they bring with them.

We should also start looking at the negative impact of Asian illegal immigration on this country; as well as Latin immigration.

Almost half of our own citizens don't have insurance; and even more are having a hard time paying for prescriptions to live; not to even mention the tensions that these people bring when they demand that American communities benefit them to their own demise.

NO MORE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. IF CONGRESS WON'T DO RIGHT BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THEN IT IS TIME TO GET RID OF THEM. IF OUR BUSINESSES WON'T DO RIGHT THEN WE DON'T PATRONIZE THEM.

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Articles like this represent exactly why us democrats might not win the White House in 2008.

We can not have people crossing our borders illegally. This needs to stop. Employers that hire them and those organizations and people who shelter them need to be held accountable.

While we need to find a way to deal with the "illegal’s" already in the country, this is a totally different issue and the debate about this issue should not be linked to our efforts to secure the border by any means necessary.

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In 1980 meat packers in the northern tier of states earned $13 an hour. presently, meat packers in the midwest, next to giant meat "farms" earn about $7.50 an hour and are overwhelmingly latinos.What is that $13 hour worth now in todays prices? People rejoice in the re-birth of towns in midwest by latiinos. These depopulated towns once thrived before agri-business forced them out. Who is kidding who and I agree with person who said who cares how many ILLEGAL immigrants protest? I certainly don't. All anyone is attempting to do is enforce EXISTING laws. It is criminal for Tysons to bus illegals from the border and time for us to deal with it.

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I am tired of the argument that illegal aliens deserve rights due legal residents and citizens of the United States. They are illegal - what don't they understand about someone who breaks the law. If Latinos want to come to the US then come in legally or stay home. We are a nation of Laws, except for a President who only obeys the laws he likes. If we are going to ignore immigration laws and tolerate illegal aliens - then let's all ignore the federal income tax laws and have our illegal actions tolerated. As long as the illegals continue to violate US laws - they must be held accountable. If we cannot protect our borders and enforce our laws then we cease to be a nation of laws.

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i saw prophit say that corporations are NOT paying illegals what the law says is minimum wage. that's bunk. they hire illegals because they are the only ones desperate enough to work for minimum wage and live in crowded substandard conditions to do so because it is still better than back home. they have not taken our jobs, we can't afford to work them. that is ALL because of corporate greed. why should a corporate CEO make 2500 ($25M/yr vs $10k/yr) times the minimum wage? it seems to me that that kind of compensation lowers the bottom line much more than doubling the minimum wage would. think about it...

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I'm very much happy that the "Immigrants" are taking up the challenge of questioning the governments decision on immigration law. After all, colonialism is the act of invading someone else's sovereignty without consideration of its immigration laws. Why should the big colonialist and its citizenry complain? It is nothing but payback time for all the gold, natural resources, and human capital that has been usurped from the countries that the people have come from. Its about time that Pax Americana get a taste of what true responsibility is about. You don't rape a country and expect no repercussion to come of it. The immigrants are not colonialist but instead the victims of USA (see the acronym as it is in spanish--"to use " or exploit) colonialism from all the dictators in the world to the current resurgence of COINTELPRO in disguise as Homeland Security. Immigrants are only doing what Adam Smith once said;

"Man was made for action, and to promote by the exertion of his faculties such changes in the external circumstances both of himself and others, as may seem most favourable to the happiness of all."--The Theory of Moral Sentiments, Part II Section III Chapter 3

In other words, its about time for the revolution in halting the greed of neo-colonialism. Its not in the best interest for the world(Earth) for economic-plutocracy to exist. Duh!

Oye immigrante yo te apoyo por toda mi vida. Tu y yo venceremos la opresion de los que se creen amos de toda nuestras vidas.


Have a good day,
Marcelino Peña

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I have to agree with those who support legal immigration. This is supposed to be a nation of laws and those who cross our borders illegally are breaking our laws. The corporations benefit from this illegal labor force, who have to work for low wages and that lowers the wages for legal workers and citizens of this country. We should fine the corporations who employ illegal immigrants. There are enormous healthcare costs and social costs associated with these illegal workers. We should be admonishing Congress and the administration to provide the resources to enforce the current immigration laws, until they can study the issues and come up with a revised immigration policy. The problem for me is that the Congress and the White House are the best government that corporations can buy, so reformed legislation will certainly support business interests. They don't care that the legal workers and citizens of this country have to pay for their access to cheap labor and higher profits.

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U.S. citizens cheer as our facist government abets our coporations in raping and despoiling every developing country of the world. Then they allow the racists and xenephobes to whip up hysteria against the very people who have been hurt most by our governments policies.
Get a clue people. These very immigrants give far more to our economy than they take. This is not my claim but the claim of some of the most notable economists in the country.

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...but anti-American as well. This law would make felons of Americans simply for behaving like decent human beings. We were slouching towards fascism, but now we're squaring our shoulders and goose-stepping.

We gotta get the Republicans out.

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It seems that Americans today are like bratty kids filled with only self-concern and not one idea of what their parents or grandparents went through for them to have their indulgent shallow lives. America was built on the many contributions of immigrants, but now you say you've had enough of those contributions, let's just get those people out. If this sort of racist policy making had been sucessful during the early years of our country, many such as the Irish, Italians, and Germans, would not be here today and America would be a very differnet place as a result. These are poeple that are paying taxes and for the most law abiding. They want what so many before them wanted, a chance at a decent life. They are not a strain on our economy, they are not collecting welfare checks or even unemployment, they are working the jobs that many of us deam too lowly and they do it so proudly because it is an opprotunity. There was an interesting article in the LA Times recently that basically dispelled the myth that immigrants were a finnancial drain, of course none of this has to do with facts, at least not on the anti-immigrant end, it has top do with racsim, let's just call it what it is.

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The forty niners were illegal immigrants and so were the Texans. Here in California most of the towns and cities have spanish names. Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, Escondido as well as most of the streets. Mexicans are part American Indian and were crossing the border when Columbus arrived. The Lou Dobbs law is not going to go over very well here in California, even with gringos. A lot of us have Mexican husbands and wives.

This is an attempt to provide the basis for a Nazi government in the United States. an attack on a minority population. What will you do with the twenty million Mexicans that have families and homes here? Will you build some more gas chambers and ovens like Hitler did? We are all children of immigrants. The Pilgrims were illegal immigrants. Read the inscription on the Statue of Liberty.

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but wait, we don't know who "ourselves" are, do we? Get a clue, the border is necessary if you plan to export jobs.

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particularly the provision that would make either being an illegal immigrant or helping one a felony. That's just stupid. What are we going to do, put illegals in prison for a few years before deporting them? How many billions of dollars will that cost? Our prisons are already too full and should be reserved for people who actually pose a danger to society.

Nevertheless, a very good case can be made for limiting immigration. If you look at the history of immigration to the United States, there's been a conspicuous cycle consisting of four or five decades of liberal immigration policies followed by a similar length of time during which immigration was highly restricted. The previous period of open immigration was from about 1880 to 1920, when the ancestors of most of today's Irish-, Italian-, and Jewish Americans came to the country. The majority population felt just as economically threatened by the Irish, Italians, and Jews back then as it does by Latino immigrants today (e.g., the infamous "No Irish need apply" help-wanted signs), and viewed them with just as much suspicion, as low-class, crime-prone aliens who would radically alter America's culture and values if they became too numerous.

Starting in the 1920s, immigration became very restricted and remained that way until the mid-1960s. That was a very good thing for the newly arrived groups. It allowed them a generation or two to be fully assimilated into the broader society, a process made much easier when they were no longer perceived as invaders. Today, no one would be uncomfortable if their child married someone with a last name like Minelli or O'Reilly, or even think twice about it.

I'd like it very much if no one thought twice about their child marrying someone with a last name like Gomez or Ruiz. And to that end, I think we're overdue for another period of restricted immigration so that Latinos can become just as fully integrated into American society and culture as people of Irish, Italian, and Jewish descent are.

-K.Ai.-

(note: I'm reposting this from an earlier discussion which got archived shortly after)

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Okay, I give, I think Americans should encourage illegal immigration, because we are big fat hogs who should have the world's poor serve us. Why should we, the greatest people, from the greatest nation, ever have to grow a blade of grass or a tomato ever again. Building houses or building maintenance is so beyond us as well. Sweat, as Paris Hilton "our national icon" would say, " Isn't Hot!" There is no honor in dirt under your nails, at least not when you can have some poor slob from Mexico or Central America walking around filthy. Only a racist nativist would think that Americans should get off their fat lazy asses and carry the weight of their country. I certainly don't want to be a racist like that, so count me in the PRO-EXPLOITATION OF ILLEGAL PEOPLE AND CRUSHING AMERICA'S UNDERCLASS CROWD. VIVA LA RAZA!

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Why do Americans persist in repeating the lie this is a country of immigrants? A significant number of people are descended from Native Americans and African slaves. Everytime you say we all came from immigrants you basically are saying all those who matter came from immigrant stock. And believe me those of us who didn't get the message.

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The truth the government of Mexico is taking advantage of everyone, first to make it necessary for it`s young people to go north and risk themselves to death or enslavement,in order to send money to the families they left behind,and second,it`s like cuba opening it`s doors to the prisons and letting all of the prisoners go to the US,that relieves the social pressure that comes from so many young people with practically no education, and without a chance to survive or better themselves. Now the Mexican government is getting ready to charge taxes on the money they send home. they are only waiting until the guest worker program goes into effect. By the way this amount is more than Mexico gets for it`s oil sales.

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The one thing that is never going to leave the U.S. is Latinos, and that's a reality that non-Latinos need to address.
Univisión has a viewership equal to that of CNN. It's prime newscaster, Jorge Ramos is viewed more than any Anglo-American counterpart. You can get the percentages and stats from one of his books: "Atravesando Frontreras", "La Otra Cara de América", or "La Ola Latina", all available in an English version at your local book peddler, or on the internet.
And that leads to another reality. Publications, auto manufacturers, cosmetics, investment companies, mortgage lenders, colleges and universities, clothiers, law enforcement, real estate agents, hotels and resorts, etc., etc.,etc. have all faced the reality of Latino buying power, and, in the not too distant future, their political clout.
Pretending to get a handle, at this late date on the "problem", is like trying to get the toothpaste back in the tube.
Latinos, in their "huge" numbers, and in all their racial combinations, differences; from Argentina to Haiti, to Venezuela, are here to stay.
So, by all means, build the wall, pass legislation, create detention camps. The giants around you are waking up.

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I remember last year when Jerry Kilgore tried to misuse that issue in the Northern VA. Trouble is that the issue didn't hold water and he was forced to drop that issue and try to run one culture wedge issue after another but of course Tim Kaine won.

The issue of "illegal immigrants" was created as a result of our government's destructive "free" trade/market policies and as a result only big and crooked business got its share of all the free lunches leaving the rest of us with a higher bill in the long run. It's bad enough that these same shenanigans that cry about "illegal immigrants" and bringing puppet-style "democracy" are hell bent on copying the Mexican government's model of increasing poverty against the working class leaving them lost and scattered. There's no doubt that today's cons have no problem if a corrupt corporation or big business plucks an immigrant illegally for cheap labor but for those poor souls scattered and lost and trying to hang on to their lives, they just got to PERSECUTE them.

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man, we either have some extraordinarily knowledgable fauxliberal meat puppets on this thread, or else there are a couple of neoliberal paid think tankers/writers/propagandists. The pro-mass immigration fauxliberals are really cranking out the think tank talking points here!

I mean, this thread is a tour de force repository of neoliberal globalist propaganda.

Let's see if we can summarize all the talking point propaganda the pro-mass immigration fauxliberals are outputting here:

1. TINA==There Is No Alternative. This means mass immigration and the neoliberal rat race to the bottom is INEVITABLE, so just relax and enjoy it cuz it is an UNSTOPPABLE FORCE OF NATURE. Pure nonsense of course. But what do you expect from the neoliberals?

2. If you are against mass immigration from the 3rd world, then you are a Nazi racist. The race card! Hooks into the elite entertainment media propaganda that has been output for years that says that all white people are inherently racist and must atone for their sins. Pure nonsense, as I pointed out in this same thread elsewhere.

3. They were here first, so they deserve to come here. Another fauxHistorical canard. Tens of millions of white Americans are part native American, including me.

4. Anyone up for completing this list of pro-mass immigration neoliberal talking points?

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all immg. should be able to get a temp. green card from the local law enforce people an this will last for three years an they pay taxs like everbody an after that time if there was no bad marks againt them then they get citz. paper then not a year or so time down the line now at the end of the three year if they want go home all taxs paid in will be tranfare to they home country in there name now our gov. needs to be push in to or kick out all noncitz. without papers in 30days then all of the white people better learn how to move grass an do yard work or roofing, highway building, highrise building, trash hauling, cooks,health care worker, home builder, farm worker now we need them so lets get them there paper as soon as we can or all the ones that are saying we do not need them then they better be able to put there hands around working tools not play tools men an women alike

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Immigration is not the true problem in this issue. It's the raping of our country by conglomerate pig corporations who are traitors to this country by de-unionizing and outsources jobs. Force these huge corporations to pay a living wage and we can live comfortably. The immigrants would still start at bottom scale and have an oppurtunity to advance. Just like our forefathers. The economy will increase with the population.
Close our borders to ruthless greedy countries/corporations NOT PEOPLE! Deal only with benevolent forces and see how fast the world business model changes.
Hey we are ALL immigrants! Don't slam the door just because there are fewer jobs here. The pigs are gonna win whether we close the borders or not. It'll just be a slower death!
Wake up folks.

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Sheesh! How many times do we have to hear this 'junk journalism' about an anti-'immigrant' backlash when our representatives try to enforce our sovereignty. Immigrants are people who apply for residency and a work permit, learn English, and relinquish their former citizenship to become Americans. Mexican flags, La Raza, Aztlan, etc. are not the traits of legal immigrants, they are the characteristics of people who want to impose their culture and national affiliation on another country, OUR COUNTRY. I say NO!! This uncontrolled flow of ILLEGAL ALIENS has GOT TO STOP and this is the kind of bill that could help to stop it!!! I say, pass it, build it, enforce it, NOW!!!

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For those of you that would like a synopsis of the political turmoil that Latin America, with the machinations of U.S. administrations, has had to endure for the entire length of the 20th century:

Read this great article

Peace and prosperity has not been a hallmark of régimes in the hemisphere, and the consequence of U.S. intervention and meddling in Latin America is bearing this bitter fruit that so many North Americans oppose and attribute to some well-oiled, organized invasion from its southern border.
While it may be creditable to label it an invasion, it's roots are based on the treatment that Latin America has received from the U.S.

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Let's say the people that are demostrating and saying they will create a economic strike to stop this nation, to let the people that run this country know they mean business ,when they demand the right to be citizens ,especially since the English speaking people can no long understand the language that is being spoken nor work for the wages that are being offered and since we the people have more rights then the people that worked to make this country what it was. VIVA
MEXICO!! VIVA BIG BUSINESS!! So give it up Middle America. The President breaks the laws and creates a war to kill the young so give the illegals the right to own this country since you can't send them back to do for their country what they are doing for America. Help!!!!

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As conflicted as I am on this issue, can't deny the awe and respect I feel for people willing to peacefully take their issues to the streets.

Should be real interesting watching how this plays out in Washington.

Immigrants and their supporters have shown the rest of America how to stand up against the bullshit Washington dishes daily. Maybe they'll get off their asses and protest the damn war.

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I'm sorry if non-U.S. citizens feel offended that U.S. citizens want to reign in control of the country back from the politicians and businesses. I understand that people from all over the world want to come here (not just Mexico and Latin America) to create a better life for themselves and their families. The issue of illegal immigration is bigger than illegal immigration.

The issue is about fairness of competition between businesses that hire illegal immigrants and businesses that do not. The issue is about the social side-effects that illegal immigration has brought with it. The issue is about what is Mexico doing what are any of these foreign governments doing to promote job creation and economic opportunity in their countries? I'm sure there are other issues other readers could name as well. This is by no means an exclusive list.

The point to leave with is this stand up to your own governments and push for reforms like we do in the U.S. every two, four and six years respectively. March like that (500,000 march on L.A. on 25 Mar 06) on Mexico City and see what happens i.e. apply your rights where they will make the most difference.

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when the workforce becomes so concentrated w/ illegals and the wage finally drops so low and you're out of work I guarantee views will change. Face it, the illegal sympathizers are monied latee(sp? liberals. Althogh it does seem they are the minority of comments in this thread

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I HATE HOW EVERYONE JUDGES PEOPLE ALL THE FREAKIN TIME. WHY DO WE HAVE TO PUT LABELS ON PEOPLE. WHO CARES IF WE'RE "LEGAL" OR "ILLEGAL,"{WE'RE ALL ILLEGAL ANYWAYS. NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE SAYS...WE ARE}. WE'RE STILL ALL PEOPLE ARENT WE! I DONT LIKE THE FACT THAT THEY WANT TO PASS THIS STUPID LAW! THIS ISNT GOING TO GO WELL IN CALIFORNIA BECAUSE MOST SOUTHERN CALIFORNIANS ARE HISPANIC. AND ANYWAYS...WASNT CALIFORNIA ONCE MEXICO. SO BASICALLY ANYONE LIVING IN CALIFORNIA THAT ISNT MEXICAN IS THE ILLEGAL ONE. RIGHT? RIGHT. SO STOP WITH ALL THE HATING. DANG! AND ONE LAST THING.. IF THAT STUPID 700 MILE LONG WALL IS BUILT THEN ONE SHOULD BE BUILT ALONG THE US AND CANADA TOO. THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY.

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Where is the INS? If they are illegal, pick them up and get them out of there.

Ask for their Green Card. If they do not have one it's into the van. Give them the option of military service or deportation. 4 years of service will get you expedited citizenship. It will solve two problems- recruitment and illegal immigration.

Join the Army and go to Iraq or go home to whatever rock you crawled out from under. If you don't respect our laws we don't want you.

We Arrest.
You Decide.

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The basic idea behind freedom is that one has the inherent right to do as he or she pleases, so long as those actions don't violate the rights of another person.

If someone wants to move to find a job, that is his or her right. Using government coercion to prevent someone from exercising that right is anti-freedom.

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Suppose all workers world wide decided to strike at the same time, demanding representation in government and quality of life as a basic human right. Read Thomas Paine's 'Rights of Man' for more on basic human rights.

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Why is "national security" defined as harrassing everyone FLYING into the country from Europe and Asia -- now they even want to fingerprint everyone routinely! -- and harrassing those arriving by land from Canada, while anyone who can survive the obstacle course at the southern border gets a free pass? Won't it occur to terrorists from elsewhere to fly to Mexico and wander in that way? OK, we're always going to need immigrants from Latin America -- why is it "racist" to just want some modicum of control over the process?

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Cinattra's post made a lot of sense to me and it brought up more questions that never seem to be asked or answered. I would love for the people who support mass illegal immigration to answer the questions I think Americans have a right to ask. If you don't, I have to assume you don't think Americans have the right to question policy, which we pay for.

1. Cinattra, you have hit the nail on the head why aren't the marchers marching in their homeland?
2. Why is it they feel emboldened to demand another sovereign nation give them the rights of citizenship, without the burden of citizenship?
3. What is the difference between a pre-emptive strike against a sovereign nation by force or one that attacks the infrastructure?
4. Don't each serve to cripple the native populace?
5. If more than half of all illegal immigrants come from Mexico, and that country's average educational level is between 6th and 8th grade, how many of their young men and women are even qualified to serve in the armed services?
6. If as studies show a majority of illegal immigrants don't finish high school, how are they qualifying for jobs that natives need diplomas for?
7. If newly arrived illegal immigrants have no job references, how are they more qualified for jobs than natives, who are asked to provide them?
8. Do you consider hiring practices that give a clear advantage to illegal immigrants discriminatory towards natives?
9. If not why not?
10. Are you in favor of discrimination?
11. Under what circumstances do you view discrimination as acceptable?
12. What would you do to a politician in your democracy whose record showed a wreckless disregard for his/her constituents wishes?
13. Are Americans entitled to the government they pay for?
14. Why aren't people from nations south of Mexico marching against their border policies?
15. One day in April of 2005, the Mexican deportation center held 630 people from 150 nations, do you really believe both Mexico and America can provide adequate border security with a guestworker program?
16. Do you care if America can provide adequate border security?

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The wording in the headline of Sharry's piece, specifically, 'anti-immigrant' gives one an idea of what will likely follow, whithout any further reading being required. Implicit in the wording is the notion that (and it is precisely the same reasoning/viewpoint that colours so many of the subsequent pro-immigration postings) it is a given that to be opposed to immigration, on whatever grounds - environmental, social, economic, whatever - automatically means that one must be amoral, callous, xenophobic, racist (how some of the contributors here are seemingly addicted to these terms!), etc., etc. - it is a long list!

I am not going to address in detail the plethora of arguments that have been thrown forth by the pro-immigration, 'let them all in and damn the consequences' crowd (perhaps the flimsiest of all being the notion that because the U.S., or any country for that matter, is a 'nation of immigrants', that such an argument is and of itself is reason enough to throw the welcome mat out to every Tom, Dick and Harry on the face of the planet in perpetuity).

I would just throw a couple of thoughts at Sharry and like-minded thinkers: Firstly, do any of you ever give the slightest thought to the enormous and adverse environmental impacts of sizeable population influxes when you denounce (often in very unflattering language) those who favour restrictive immigration policies, for whatever reason?

And, secondly, to those who relish hurling the 'racist' or 'xenophobic' epithets left, right and centre, at every opportunity (typically as a very poor substiture for meaningful and intelligent debate): You are fond of labelling as 'racist' those who are opposed to the immigration of peoples of very differing cultures/backgrounds (often to any immigration by anyone, needless to say) , and whose immigration radically alters the cultural/social make-up of the host country or community (important note). Would it not be equally 'racist' to consiously favour immigration policies which achieve such radical changes in a society's make-up? And I mean any society, anywhere in the world.

I am not going to rehash the economic arguments re immigration; others have pointed out quite well, for example, the adverse effects that mass immigration has on wage levels, and, subsequently, on poverty levels.

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I didn't know protests of this magnitude were possible for liberals to organize in the United States anymore. As much as I like this, I have to wonder, where are the protests against unauthorized wiretapping? Why aren't college kids protesting the government when they raise their interest rates on college loans (as was mentioned in another article)?

We need to find out how they organized these protests so well, and in such a short amount of time. Then use it for other issues.

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We have laws, some people are asking why they are not being enforced. We have borders and boundaries for a reason, do we not? Every nation requires visas for proper documentation and accountability to legally enter there country do they not?
But this comes down to more of the soul and character of this country. It started because somewhere, sometime ago a wealthy business owner came to understand that someone looking for employment or already under his employ was an illegal (whether this was the maid in a movie star or politician's house or a warehouse worker) , so instead of abiding by the law the wealthy individual looked at the monetary advantages for him to employ or keep this illegal worker. Less documentation needed, less money paid out for the illegals services, less chance of lawsuits, no reason to abide by labor laws of break times, meal times, and overtime. Multiply this out by multitude of employees and the wealthy only got richer and instead of employing illegals to do jobs no one else would do they simply are getting away with paying wages to them with less benefits and less risk there millions growing while they will not pay and American citizen to do the job, why should they if they continue to have a seemingly endless work force that can save them tons of money and make them have the advantage over the competition. But in the truth they are simply robbing from the future and and because of greed not supporting their fellow Americans. Of course this applies to those companies and individuals that are actually doing this as I want to believe that their are many reputable and upstanding business owners and companies that stay within the law and do not mind paying there American brother, their fellow citizen, proper wages and benefits, They can deal with the ethical and moral peace that they will only make 1million profit this year rather than 1.5 million, to use a generic amount, it could be in the thousands or billions depending on the size and scope.
Going back to your home , if you invited some destitute person into your house and they told you that they would work down at the local work yard and pay you half or all of your mortgage if you would give them your extra room. The only problem it is not extra, your son, your daughter, your mother, your best friend is in that room but is not paying you anything at all. Would you throw that "family" out of the house, or make them sleep on the couch so you could get the monetary gain from this person you do not know from Adam. Of course most would not, but unfortunately some would and in like manner the illegal is doing the same to the business owner he is actually paying him not to employee his family , his countrymen, that is exactly what he is doing because his illegal employment is money in this law breaking , greedy millionaires pocket so he can have an extra ranch or leer jet.

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In reality outsourcing, and employing illegals is all about making the rich richer. I have seen it first hand, a millionaire business owner I know will pay 4 million for a couple hundred feet corner lot of dirt but then pay green-card immigrants barely minimum wage making them do the work of 3 or four employees saving himself hundreds of thousands per year. To my knowledge he has not done illegals but green-card immigrants are almost as good for him. And these are the jobs the liberals and media say that Americans do not want, hog wash, these are the jobs that business owners can get away with paying illegals or green-card/ working visa immigrants sometimes 1/2 to 2/3rd less and usually with out the additional cost of law required benefits and rights. So not only do they scorn an American worker a chance at the job for a decent wage, one that may make the business owner have to sacrifice having one jet instead of two, they rob the American economy because large percentages of such earned incomes by illegals and working visa immigrants specifically from Mexico goes back to Mexico to there family and business endeavors there. And in addition put extra taxes and strain on the local econi=omies to the point that some hospitals in LA and other places are having to go bankrupt becuase the law requires once they are here you have to provide them medical treatment even if they have no maoney, no insurance, even if the hospital is going under budget wise.
So the question would be then, mathematically how many illegals and immigrants do you think should be allowed in and how fast 20 million, 50 , 100 million -- immediately , in the next year , 5 or ten years? How many and how soon, and appear moralistically the angelic good samaritan while still maintaining a sustainable economy and standard of living that actually makes people want to risk there lives to sneek here. But mathematical it is impossible that the United States absorb an unlimited number or immigrants and illegals in an indefinite period of time, so what is the responsible approach, to holding greedy business owners and independent contractors and corporations and outsourcing companies accountable to the law designed to protect the citizens right to operate, live, and work in a community and culture that is supportive and self-enriching and empowering towards life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness when they are selling our bithright and bringing the curse that comes with it, desolation and becoming the outcast and wanderers in our own land, so was the case with Esau that for a moments satiation sold his soul, so too the business owners and politicians for a moments satiation of cheap labor, easy consumers, and easier votes are on the precipice of sacrificing this nations birthright.

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It's all about race. If the majority of illegals were white this discussion/problem would not exist. The fact is that the people running around with their dick in their hand shouting aloud how bad it is for America to have all of these illegals are racist right-wing (and some liberal) blowhards.
It's an issue designed to distract Americans from the right-wing conservative Christians and Jews immoral and corrupt actions that are, and probably have already, damaging our once great nation.
So to all of you who think this issue means anything, except to rally millions of people of color to vote for Democrats, think again. Republicans are done, dead, fucking sickos with no vision for anything good. Replicans are worse than crakheads who steal costume jewelry.

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I am glad for the marked exposure that this flaunting of the immigrants has gained them. Because most Americans have no, had no, clue of the encroachment of illegals into our society and the support of working visa immigrants and nationalized immigrants of this very violation of our laws and draining of our treasuries. But now they have seen a glimpse of what us in the major metropolises have been witnessing for over a decade.

I moved out to LA a decade ago and in that time alone I have seen nearly triple the amount of mexican immigrants that are paid cash "under the table" paying no taxes, fake or stolen social security numbers from deceased people or alternate actual living indviduals and less and less of them that are English proficient. 10 years ago almost all I came in contact with could converse in English or of their own respective accord brought a relative or friend translator now at least half demand a spanish speaking employee. Interesting that for several hundred years and with less amenities than today Mexican and Spanish immigrants had no problem learning English and operating in a total English society , it is only in the last couple decades that they have become unable , or is it unwilling, to learn English. All other ethnic groups I run into particular Middle Eastern speak English fluently and their mother tounge is from a complete different language root. The business I have been in has afforded me the opportunity to have dealt with about 10 new fresh individuals a day, working with credit applications and their bureaus, incomes, employment etc so I find out alot about these people. So over 10 years that is greater than 30,000 people I have personally dealt with and I am only one employee of a company with hundreds and the interaction and consensus and knowledge we have distilled is basically the same. The respect or want to learn the national Language is decreasing, identity fraud and theft of socials etc is increasing, employer violation of law by paying unreported wages is escalating, flying of mexican flags? Is this immigrant assimilation into American culture? Well I think the majority of the country now will sit up and take notice and realize that this much of a demostrative show necessitates a equalizing response and more research by them. The majority of the nation which did not know the extent of the presently revealed attitude by said immigrants will now begin to get involved and the momentum will only increase on initiatives that are of the kind being demonstrated against.

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That's what uncontrolled illegal immigration and globalization is. Shame on Alternet for even publishing this article, which is nothing but apologism for neoconservative big-business interests. Leave that sort of BushCo nation-destroying treason for the National Review.

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For those advocates of pushing the toothpaste back into the tube

Read This

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I wasn't quoting anybody. So piss off.

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How many billions have we spent trying to keep Mexicans out of the U.S? But when I last went to California, they were working everywhere.

Build a wall? They'll dig a tunnel, like the quarter-mile tunnel from Tijuana to San Diego.

How'd the Berlin Wall do? Like the Berlin Wall, with enough machine-gunners, you can probably keep most people out, but eventually it will be torn down! And is the Israeli wall keeping out the suicide bombers? Not so well...I guess some people just keep sneaking through the checkpoints.

Did we go to war with Mexico or something? When Americans will work with the low wages and poor working conditions that immigrants will put up with, we'll get our jobs back, but don't expect American big business to cut off immigrants and start hiring Americans at double the pay. Wal-Mart is not going to go for that.

This is some kind of Rambo fantasy that we can stop all Mexicans from coming across the border. What next a fence along the Canadian border? Maybe we can pay for those fences with our big budget surplus. Oh, I forgot we are nine trillion dollars in the hole! Maybe if we cut school lunches for poor kids? Now we've got enough for Halliburton to build the first mile of fence.

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I have heard that illegals have a birth rate in the US only competative with that of the Mormons. Anyways I kinda look at it like a pyramid scheme where you always need a bigger base ie: larger next generation to support the previous one. so it seems to me the wealthy of the bb generation must have a huge working underclass to sustain their wastful habits. And this will only end after all the natural resources have been devoured. So I figure this bill is a place to start even if not a wise one.

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My first thought: This is L.A.'s biggest protest ever? Something about that doesn't sit well with me. The pre-Iraq war protests were huge, and where were they all then? The protests over the election fraud in 2004? Not so huge. And when we passed the Patriot Act, when we pulled out of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, or refused to join the Kyoto accord, or any of the other awful stuff the Bush administration has done, were there even protests?
There have already been so many more things to be angry about. But it took this to get their attention.

It seems like the act of such a sorry mass of selfish, nearsighted, arrogant, hypocritical bastards- with a huge sense of entitlement and no sense of responsibility- that I say go ahead and grant them all citizenship.
They'll fit in here just fine.

I don't side with the Official Liberal Party Line on the immigration issue at all. (The idea that taking any kind of action against the illegals is a "racist" attempt to deprive them of their "rights.") No, our Bill of Rights, farce though it may be anymore, is for citizens.
You might have good reasons for lying on your resume, but if the business finds out, they have every right to fire you. You may have good reasons for trying to hide income from the IRS, but if they find you out, you will pay up with interest or you will go to jail. You're taking on a risk when you break the law, and for many people the benefits outweigh the risks- but when they catch up with you, you have no place demanding freedom from the consequences of your actions.

A second thought: It's obvious to me that the U.S. govt. and businesses have together made sure that the illegal immigration is as consequence-free as possible, to their own benefit.
So to suddenly start seriously enforcing the immigration laws is going to make people angry, just as it would if the Highway Patrol suddenly started seriously enforcing the speed limit laws. I can understand that. If this is a serious change in policy, and not just an attempt to pander to the xenophobe demographic, maybe amnesty should be granted to all existing illegal immigrants who came over during the policy of tolerance and looking the other way.

And a third thought:
At least we don't have to be kept in suspense any longer as to what Homeland Security's "new programs" are going to be.
You see, if illegal immigrants become felons, it will be an easy step to use the Patriot Act's broad new definitions of terrorism ( they are foreign nationals entering the country for the purpose of committing a felony...) to arrest and detain them indefinitely without trial in Halliburton slave-labor camps.

Then the former middle class, who have been working service-sector jobs at hourly wages since all the technical and manufacturing jobs went to India and China, can now do all the minumum wage unskilled labor jobs that the Mexicans used to do. The former upper-middle class can then take over their jobs, while the rich get richer, as always, by shuffling around other people's money and debt.

Once they've got the KBR gulag systems stocked with all the illegal immigrants, (who'll miss them? No one with enough money to matter...) then start throwing in the dissidents. This is actually a great idea, because just like killing Muslim civilians generates more terrorism, imprisoning dissidents generates more dissent. So soon we'll have enough domestic prison labor to make the US competitive with Chinese slave labor, and, ( after multi-billion-dollar "Freedom Incentive" tax breaks ) enough of the multinational corporations will return here to manufacture cheap goods that we can then sell to the new class of debt-ridden gringo day-laborers.

Does that sound about right?

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This debate has been so massively warped by the defenders of immigrants, that they can't see the damage they are doing to legitimate migration. It is smart and right to have immigration controls, and to reward and uphold those who enter the US as legal migrants. It is wrong to present illegal migrants as heros.

The more illegal immigrants there are, and the laxer the border control, the worse the situation gets. Countries that are very successful at both offering opportunities to migrants, and defending existing standard of living (Australia, Canada) have far stricter border controls than the US. It is not reactionary to have border control, it is actually the most liberal and progressive thing a government can do. It says clearly we respect you, your labour and we respect our existing citizens too. We will not conspire to drive down your worth nor will we do this to our workers either.

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The immigrant uprising, fair and decent wages to live, corporate abuse of illegal immigrants, failures by the United States government to enforce laws sooner resulting in the present chaos, corporations paying CEO's 2500 times more than the average worker, the government allowing monopolies therefore creating systems where the few control more and so on, unfairness in our justice system where the majority is of one race or those who are poor, unfair trade practices or no trade at all with nations of color, ignoring poverty in the U.S and worldwide, neglect of our own poor and middle class for the benefit of big business, politicians being bought out by lobbyists and corporations, politicians giving themselves pay raises while millions are without jobs and 45 million plus are without healthcare, lack of compassion and help for poor nations worldwide, failure to institute campaign finance reform, government corruption, outsourcing of american jobs and more are reasons America is in need of a revolution. It's time for a change in our political, social, and judicial systems in this country.

With so many other important issues we could be addressing, we choose to invade two other countries, spend over 350 billion in tax payers money, and be responsible for over 2500 U.S. Soldiers lives not counting those who are injured emotionally and physically. And also the tens of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans we have killed and scarred for life. Where are our priorities or is it all about the money.... not the people. It's time for a CHANGE and the sooner the better folks... It's time for a REVOLUTION.

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Stop and think all you fine people rehashing we all are immigrants. First that is not so -- I am legally American Indian, Blackfoot - Mohican Cherokee to be exact, although I also have Irish and English blood so is the case with many and also the African -Americans who did not immigrate but were slaves here and paid their dear price so that this has become there nation and home.

But the main point is that the Immigrants today come , knowing that they have access to all the public ammenities, and welfare and medical assistance and are using it as in California alone it is estimated that it cost 3 billion dollars a year to fund the illegals in that state alone.

Stark Contrast to the original founding immigrants -- there was not welfare, there were not free medical clinics, there were little if no handouts. You came here and lived and died based on your dream and drive.

I flew over part the Grand Canyon some time back in a helicopter tour and the guide showed us a road still visible etched into the landscape that Sooners or other covered wagon pioneer "immigrants " had made by there tens of thousands of wheels passing that same route which was one of the few passes through that area. He went on to explain how thousands of them were killed by ambush of the native Indians of that area. Yea the immigrants of yester year came with faith and hope and love a of a country that offered them the chance of freedom and very little else and many died like those pioneers or went insane or starved on the plains because they had no food or shelter but the immigrants kept coming knowing this , knowing there where no food lines, or medical clinics, and that they may die.
They came knowing if they did not get rid of that Irish accent they would probably never get a decent job and so they worked hard at it. Today these said immigrants demand we learn there language and come fully expecting and demanding and definitely using all the handouts. The immigrants that came in the founding this country cost it and its taxpayers nothing compared to the ridiculous monies being paid to harbor them now. If I told you that you were going to have to pay 10 to 20 percent more taxes next year so that about half of everything you made was taken by the government what would you say? H%!! no is what you would say but that is what it would take to keep the level of illegals coming into this country paid for if the government was not borrowing money and selling tresury notes to pay for it. But the government can not keep it up forever, just wait until you really start paying for your illegal immigrant support.

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I can't imagine why those who have done so much name calling as a defense of their pro-illegal immigration stance have not been able to answer one of the 16 questions I posed to them. Surely as many of you like to point out, I'm not that smart to have stumped you. Perhaps if you had to articulate your position rather than offer talking points, we might see some racism on your part? Perhaps you can't justify some of the things that are obviously true, like why do Americans need references to get jobs when clearly illegals don't? Is that discrimination in your opinion? If not why not? You can ignore my questions all you want, but eventually others will begin to ask them too. Are you going to pretend that no one has the right to question the government we PAY for ? Or perhaps you will choose to be defensive as a way to divert the conversation from an inability to justify anti-American and discriminatory practices within the movement.

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The FIRST job of any nation is to secure it's borders. Without a controlled border, you do not have a nation. Without citizenship, you have no responsibility to your community. Without citizenship, a government has no responsibility toward you.

I have no problem with immigration, only with illegal immigration. If a person is going to disregard the laws of entry into a nation, which is nothing more than an extended community, what makes you think they will obey any other laws?

All I ask is that you learn our common language, obey our laws, put your allegiance to our country FIRST and live peacefully. Allowing millions of people who closet themselves in self-imposed ghettos extending to media is doing nothing but planting the seeds of future civil strife. The crazies that advocate the return of the southwest to Mexico should be treated as the subversives they are and charged with sedition.

How do you think Mexico would respond if tens of millions of english speaking non-hispanic Americans flooded in, expecting the full benefits and rights of citizenship? Mexico does not even allow Americans that are legally in Mexico to own property, among other restrictions.

If they expended half of the effort and coin on improving their own country instead of trying to come here, they might want to stay where they were born. These folks should be protesting the corrupt government in Mexico City-- not in the US.

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The immigration issue is the black hole of politics. Every other issue is sucked into it. Health care. Education. Trade. National Security.

For this reason and others we should have an extended debate about immigration without artificial constraints. Let's open the issue up for a robust national discussion.

As a candidate for the U.S. Senate I advocate a policy of Free People AND Free Trade. Notice the order of this: PEOPLE COME FIRST! We haven't focused on freeing the people of Mexico, China and other nations from the scourge of poverty and oppression. We've focused solely on the idea that free trade will produce free people. But is this notion founded in fact? The evidence indicates otherwise.

We should focus our trade policies on helping those nations which are moving forwards with increased freedom for their people. This means freedom from political oppression and economic oppression. The latter issue is especially relevant when examining the immigration issue.

People from all over the world want to immigrate to America. The criteria should include the human policies of their governments. Do they support human rights, democracy and individual liberty? Do they provide health care for their citizens? If they pass these criteria, and others, then we should welcome their people into America.

If the policies do not pass the criteria then we should examine each nation and each individual on a case-by-case basis. For example, we may wish to allow political refugees from oppressive dictatorships but not allow economic refugees. That has been U.S. policy in our recent history. We may wish to change this policy. It is part of the immigration issue.

These issues are part of the robust national discussion. If Congress proceeds to "rush the issue" we will be poorly served by whatver legislation is passed. We need the extended discussion. Let's resist the temptation for a "quick fix solution" and instead delve into the "black hole" of immigration with a healthy national discussion.

Let the national discussion begin. We can re-visit the immigration issue next year after we have explored all of these issues, and others, in a frank and thorough manner.

Patience is a virtue. May we have the patience and consideration needed to form a better consensus.

Steve Moyer
Candidate for U.S. Senate
http://stevemoyer.us
RR 1 Box 60, Warren VT 05674 802-496-8917

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he thinks Mexican immigrants in the future will for many generations at least be pro-authoritarian, socially conservative Catholics who will always go along with the anti-gay, anti-feminist, fetus-worshipping agenda. Many of us would like to think he's wrong about that, but maybe we'd be fooling ourselves.

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The reason illegal immigrants come here is because employers will hire them and they can make more money than they can at home. Employers hire them because they are cheap labor and don't ask for benefits. It is quite simple and it's human nature. Here in California, it is almost impossible for an American citizen to get any kind of laboring job, period. I know because both my husband and my daughter tried when they were not able to get anything else and we desperately needed the money. Every possible job landscaping, doing construction, housework or even walking dogs is taken by illegals. I used to make extra money cleaning houses after construction and move-outs. All that is gone to illegal immigrants now, and most of the money goes out of the country and back to places like Mexico. My slum landlord is finanacing his adobe hacienda in Mexico on our rent payments. I'm generally progrssive in my politics, but in this case, I think all those arguments about how business desperately needs the labor are BS. The illegals are human beings and deserve decent treatment when they are caught, but they are a drain on our state, which can't even provide for the citizens who are here. Punish the employers who hire illegals and fine them and the flood will stop. If agricultural workers are needed, let business bring them in under strict supervision. America is for Americans and for legal immigrants who want to make a new life here. We are not a cash cow to be milked by hit and run illegals who take the money and run and businesses who are looking to exploit cheap labor.

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I agree completely. I live in California, a border state and we are over-run by illegal aliens. Employers are so used to the cheap labor and the lack of enforcement of immigration laws, that many jobs won't even hire you if you are an American. My landlord is a Mexican citizen, but he owns the property and exploits the hell out of us. He never fixes anything and spends most of his time in Mexico. Yes, he is a nice guy, but that doesn't matter when the place is falling apart and the landlord is absent most of the time. I can't go to another country and do this, so why is it happening here to Americans? It's all about greed and money and nothing else. The immigration question can turn out half a million demonstrators, but no one is marching for affordable housing and healthcare for American citizens. Something is wrong with this picture and I am mad as hell.

Angry Retired American

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American corporations will never give up their slave-labor force of undocumented immigrants from Latin America.

Ever since their wings got clipped in the first half of the 20th century, the robber barons have longed for a return to the heady days of the Industrial Revolution when Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller OWNED their laborers.

They will never give up undocumented slave labor because the minute these laborers become legal the fat cats can no longer pay them next to nothing and treat them like animals.

This is what's really at stake here, but most of us are so fixated on calling each other racists and wetbacks we can't see who the real enemy is.

The robber barons are using this race-baiting business to keep us divided against each other instead of going after the real enemies of the working man.

Force the corporations to pay ALL workers a living wage and treat ALL workers equally, and this problem will take care of itself.

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It's a shame that no one, including King George, gets the gist of this -- ILLEGAL. Numerous videos show these people sneaking in over porous borders. At this point, it's about security. It's about closing borders and sealing tunnels that are used not only for those who just want a better life, but those that would do harm to this country. Elaborate tunnels have been built which have been proven to allow shipment of illegal drugs and criminals. Violent gangs are invading our country. With thousands coming in every day, it would be naive to believe that terrorists are saying to themselves that they can't enter over the borders. After all, those are just reserved for those wanting a better future! It is about 20,000,000 people illegal aliens in this country, a massive number of whom are undocumented. We need to know who is here and why. This isn't the 60s. This is just short of 5 years after the biggest terrorist attack in history. Remember it? Happened in New York, as I recall. Then Dubya invade Iraq; they're not crazy about us. He's sent plenty to China, and they are trying to get what's left. Pakistan, North Korea, Russia and Iran are also not sending us best wishes for the future. If any of our enemies want to get into this country, they're smart enough to find the tunnels and find the paths the illegals are using. I don't know about you, but I'm concerned. If they were smart enough to get here and get into school to learn how to fly commercial airliners into our tallest buildings, I have to think they're smart enough to find the border. They need to be closed and we need to know who is here. If a person wants to be in this country badly enough, there are ways to do it legally. As for Bush's "jobs that Americans won't do", they're simply jobs Americans aren't asked to do. We have millions of Americans out of work and struggling to find a way to survive. High tech jobs have been outsourced and what few are left the government wants to fill with more "guest workers". We have citizen workers. Americans who love their country and remember it the way it was just want it back again. It's about security and about restoring a way of life we have lost to political greed and American apathy. If not now, maybe never. Rome fell, and they survived a lot longer than the United States of America. I want my grandchildren to have a country to in which to grow up and be proud. Being an American right now is not the privilege it once was, and legal immigrants are regretting they did it right. The insanity needs to be stopped, and the administration allowing it needs to be removed.

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I was at a march this morning in Detroit, and the number that they're reporting on public radio is 20,000. Just for a bit of perspective, we only have 900,000 people in this city. I have never been so proud of my people, who stood down a police blockade and brought out everyone...the gangsta-looking young folks, the abuelitas, the Knights of Columbus and the beautiful, beautiful brown babies. I am overwhelmed with pride, joy and hope that finally the mean-spirited right wing tide is turning. Que viva la lucha!

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Americans are just waking up to the lies inherent in the pro-illegal immigrant lobby. When Americans thought the only jobs that were being taken were "stoop" jobs they didn't listen to those of us who said, "Hey we like our "stoop" jobs." As more industries are turning over their workforce and devaluing skill sets to accomodate the low skilled argument, more are beginning to see the lie firsthand.

As I have posted before the horseracing industry is a $139 billion dollar industry and it is actually about number five in GNP. Because horseracing supports veterinarians, blacksmiths, farmers, transportation of horses, all the people employed in each of these industries, racetracks, and casinos. Look up how much Louisville, Ky makes during Derby week.

If you look at the hotel industry in major cities banquet bartenders make b$g buc$s as do doormen. Many of these so called horrible jobs aren't horrible at all, and do in fact support families. I keep trying to figure out how racetrack grooms buy new cars, live in New York or California, and send money home. Americans in those states know what the cost of living is, that is why they are having a hard time believing these people are making minimum wage, paying taxes, and living hand to mouth. There are people in all types of trades who know how difficult it is to make a way for their family, who are beginning to notice the illegal day laborers at 7-11 pull up in new Explorers. Americans don't have to rocket scientist to understand the rhetoric doesn't match what they see.

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The world economy is changing, many jobs including prominent ones are being outsourced. Countries around the world have never been so dependent on each other. What is happening before our very eyes is an exchange between Latin American Countries and the United States. This country is receiving workers from Mexico and other areas of Central America because they are desperately needed, and these immigrants need the work as well. In order to be able to afford the enormous costs of war and other efforts across the globe, we need a drastic increase of money into our economy, what better way to do this than by granting citizenship to over 11 million individuals that are already working in this country? They already pay taxes, and now with citizenship they will literally save this country from collapse. This country was built, founded, and continues to expand with cheap labor. Cheap labor allows for maximum revenue with minimal cost, its just what the doctor ordered for the survival of this country in an increasingly competitive world.

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The issue of ILLEGAL immigrants (not "immigration") has to do with a planned and concerted effort to change the demographics of this country drastically over a 15-30 year period of time. That plan was created by corporate America to suit their goals and aspirations. It was never put forth for the American people to decide upon.

That plan was to create a sitution "on the ground" that would be impossible to deal with except by accepting the influx of ILLEGAL immigrants. Or, to "say" that it could not be dealt with to create yet another muddying of the issue.

Opposing ILLEGAL immigration, especially in the 20 to 50 million people range or more is not racist, not against immigration, nor is it protectionist. One must understand that there are a handful of people who have deliberatly not enforced our boarders to achieve a goal and that goal is to raise the US population to 500 million in 20-30 years.

Now stop to think who would benefit from that and you will understand the issue better, or, even at all.

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Good article here. What I would like to see is some of these politicians who are promoting this anti-immigrant legislation is to spend time picking avocados or cauliflower or strawberries in southern California, Herr Sensenbrenner, and see how hard you'll have to toil under a hot California sun, to work with chapped lips and take few breaks.
Or better yet, why don't you switch places and see how the dirt builds under your fingernails and smell the pesticides being sprayed all around you. The immigrants will be here much longer than you. I'm only dreaming. But you see, Sensenbrenner, would you pay $5 for an avocado?

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Today’s furor over undocumented Hispanic workers may appear to be a racially charged, clash-of-civilizations struggle, but pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. It’s really just the same old union-busting.

Consider how the love-hate relationship between undocumented immigrants and everybody else who works for a living in this country looks a lot like the conflict between union non-union workers during a strike.

Management can bust the union by sneaking in non-union workers to keep the factory running while the union workers are on strike. Sometimes financially strapped union workers will also decide to cross the picket lines. Those who cross the picket lines are called “scabs.” When the players of the NFL went on strike, for example, Randy White of the Dallas Cowboys crossed the picket lines and played with the scabs.

Nobody blamed the “scab” players for taking advantage of their once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to play in the pros, and some of the better scab players even remained in the league after the strike ended. But NFL owners had successfully humbled the union by fielding scab teams.

Major League Baseball’s union was stronger and their strike crippled baseball. It was the year without a World Series, the year that could’ve been for the Cleveland Indians, the year that drove the fans away.

All American citizen or legal resident workers belong to a “union” of sorts. They are the “protected, unexploited” union, which (supposedly) guarantees they will be paid a living wage; will be taken care of by worker’s compensation if they get hurt, and can form a union and bargain collectively with management.

Undocumented alien workers are the “scabs” in this scenario, because they are both unprotected and exploited, and will accept whatever pay they’re damn well offered because who are they gonna complain to, the Border Patrol?

Don’t believe the corporate propaganda that says undocumented aliens do the jobs Americans won’t. They are the “scabs” in an ongoing, nationwide “strike,” who will do the job for less money than their “union” counterparts, and put up with abuse that no “union” worker would ever endure.

They are the slaves of corporate America, which will lie, steal, kill and turn us all against each other to keep their supply of “scab” slaves flowing across the Rio Grande River. And they won’t stop until they turn all of us into slaves.

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Who do you think hires these people?

And why aren't these companies being censured?

Oh right, I forgot. They control the U.S. government.

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The right-wing zealots have a talking line. Shout out ILLEGAL!
Can't you come up with a more dehumanizing term for ILLEGAL ALIENS? How about "OUTLAW MARTIANS." Is that scary enough?
The Nazis during WWII were able to criminalize millions of people based on their ethnicity and national origin. It was part of German law to first deport the Jews and other minorities in the 30s then to place them in camps in the 40s. Alternet has already published a few articles about the camps for ILLEGALS and other OUTLAW MARTIANS that this country is preparing.
The Jews, the Gypsies and the Homosexuals. They were all illegal not too long ago. Would you have been one of the good Germans who respected the law?
Look at the origins of U.S. immigration laws. They were based on eugenics, the creation of the master race. The same white supremacist notions that were used against the Blacks in this country were also used against the Browns and the Asians. As far as forced sterilizations based on eugenics, that also affected poor Whites as well. This is what we have in common.
Let me share with you an interesting quote by a German admirer of U.S. immigration policy:
"Compared to old Europe, which had lost an infinite amount of its best blood through war and emigration, the American nation appears as a young and racially select people. The American union itself, motivated by the theories of its own racial researchers, has established specific criteria for immigration, making an immigrant's ability to set foot on American soil dependent on specific racial requirements on the one hand as well as a certain level of physical health of the individual himsef."
--Adolf Hitler, praising the U.S. Immigration Act of 1924

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A nation that has never respected the sovereignty of Latin American nations, is now in panic mode because it perceives that its borders are porous, its socio/economic fabric is under seige, and the working peasantry is waking to an era of dispossession, to some, reminiscent of pre WW II U.S.
Still, those who should put effort into examining the ramifications of the U.S. and its foreign policies of intervention, are complacent enough to target the people at the bottom of the pile.
Storming Washington will yield farther reaching and more tangible results than simply trying to build a wall. The border is necessary, but not the sole solution.
You all know where your jobs have gone, but you're accomplises to the crime by smuggly thinking you got your Nikes at bargain prices.
That's it, remove all your drag - examine the labels. Where was it made? Why wasn't it made in New Jersey, or Arkansas, or Tennesee? Because you wanted it dirt cheap, that's why. And because, in your mind, it's perfectly acceptable for the rest of the world to starve. But now, starvation, and misery are no longer an historical past, nor a "foreign" thing. You're one pay-check from it yourself. So your knee-jerk reaction is to go on a witch hunt - good for the adrenaline high, but not a solution to the problem.
Corporate America is lying to you and had succeeded into lulling you into complacency, but where did it get you? It got you to anger and frustration. And not unlike the adolescent that grabs a gun and goes wild, you're ready to go hunting; thinking that Mexicans are in "season".
Jump in your F150s and head for Washington, goddamit!

By all accounts, illegal immigration has grown exponentially, but vigilantism and scare tactics are nothing more than a bandaid on the fish tank - the leak will eventually continue.
There's alot of rage going on in these topics, but viable plans are missing in action.

More about your government's heinous behaviour towards Latin America here

If you really believe that the U.S. has treated Latin America with equanimity and respect these past 165 years, then you're living in a fool's paradise.
There's still time to take the U.S. back from the scum bags that are serving themselves with the large spoon.
Hunt them down; you know exactly where they are!

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Unless u can find an american citizen to take the place of every single working immigrant in this country, every single construction position, janitorial position, gardening position, etc. you should just relax you cant change anything and you certaintly do not have any real power. Go and join the minutemen if you are against or go protest if you are for it. That is that.

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We have 2,000,000 million people in jail and prisons. Many of them are not violent. Perhaps they could pick fruit as part of their jail terms.

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