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Immigrants' Wall of Death

By Roberto Lovato, The Nation. Posted March 24, 2006.


Latin American leaders say thousands of immigrants will die if the U.S. Congress passes the Sensenbrenner immigration bill.
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Under a white tent on the Francisco de Miranda Air Force Base in the La Carlota neighborhood of this Venezuelan metropolis, immigrant leaders from all over the hemisphere debated and discussed immigration policies, critiquing the obsession with national security that has warped the debate over reform and laying out their alternative visions.

Filling the sultry, jet-fuel-infused air on the base with Caribbean, Colombian, Brazilian Portuguese and other accents, speaker after speaker denounced the social exclusion faced by immigrants -- and immigrant advocates -- from Alaska to Patagonia. And more than a few railed against El Muro de la Muerte (the Wall of Death), which has already killed thousands -- and will kill thousands more if the U.S. Congress passes the Sensenbrenner immigration bill.

The bill, which has set off alarms in immigrant communities, would make it a crime (rather than a civil violation) to be undocumented or to offer aid to the undocumented. It would also turn local police into enforcers of immigration law and extend the Wall of Death along 700 miles of the U.S.-Mexican border.

On the sidelines, Chris Jimenez squirmed and grimaced, preparing to lash out at the Sixth World Social Forum (Foro) here in Caracas. He fidgeted as colleagues sitting beneath the giant tent housing the panel on "Migration Policy, Discrimination and Xenophobia" described how immigration policy in countries like Costa Rica, Ecuador and even liberal-left Brazil is starting to resemble the militarized and racist policy of the United States.

Finally, Jimenez, an immigrants-rights activist with the American Friends Service Committee, stood up and described the two-front war he and others face behind the Muro. "We're fighting the Minutemen at the border in California. We also have to deal with racism within our movement," he declared. And then, as if pointing to some invisible figure standing next to him, he added, "None of the whites who spoke on behalf of the U.S. delegation at the opening ceremonies of the Foro remembered to mention the more than 35 million immigrants in the United States."

Though Jimenez and other immigrant advocates spent a considerable amount of time analyzing the myopia, limits and dangers of U.S. immigration policy, the bulk of their time at the Foro was reserved for a more transcendental matter: how to globalize the debate around and practice of immigration policy.

Jimenez and more than 30 immigrant leaders descended on the Foro with a mission to link their U.S. struggle to a resurgent, insurgent Latin American left that is electing presidents (think of the recent inauguration of indigenous leader Evo Morales in Bolivia and the election of Chile's first socialist woman president, Michelle Bachelet), defeating U.S.-sponsored free-trade agreements and calling for integracion desde abajo (integration from below) as the way to solve immigration and other issues in the hemisphere.

Foro participants like Jimenez explored and proposed alternatives to the punitive, security-focused approach of politicos and governments defending integracion desde arriba (integration from above), which allows goods but not people to move freely across borders. The proposals and concrete projects shared over intense sessions, replete with food, cigarettes and music, and lasting well into the evening, represented participants' best efforts to make real the theme of the Foro: Another World Is Possible.

U.S. representatives of some of the hometown associations that send more than $45 billion annually to build and sustain towns and entire regions regaled their southern homologues with stories of how they are doing the work that was supposed to be done by national governments and agencies like USAID, which budgeted less than $746 million in Latin American aid for the 2006 fiscal year. In turn, South American activists described how they demanded -- and secured -- agreements allowing for the free movement of people between Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile and Bolivia as part of the Southern Common Market (MERCOSUR) trade agreement.

Together, the U.S. Foro delegates and their Latin American peers plan to continue and expand joint binational and multinational lobbying efforts leveraging the power of U.S. and other Latin American immigrant communities to influence governments of the Southern Cone -- and the United States. Their radical vision was perhaps best embodied by proposals for a hemispheric citizenship along the lines of the European model.

But those who believe another world of immigration policy is possible are also muy pragmaticos about how to get there. Oscar Chacon, leader of the U.S. Latino immigrant delegation and of Enlaces America, sees "three great obstacles" to a more enlightened U.S. debate. The first, he says, is the "racism and xenophobia" within the mostly white-led immigrants-rights movement in the United States.


Digg!

Roberto Lovato is a Los Angeles-based writer.

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ironic
Posted by: rsaxto on Mar 24, 2006 3:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it ironic that South America is becoming more democratic than North America. The reason for this is that in most of our States the electoral process is managed and manipulated by people who are guilty of vote fraud. After we kick the Bushie bums out we need to bring in the UN to observe the vote fraud and suggest real election reform.

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» RE: ironic Posted by: threedfm
Utter nonsense - the wall will save lives
Posted by: Bobsays on Mar 24, 2006 3:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is just not true. Right now, without a wall, thousands have died trying to illegally gain access to the US. A wall, just like the one in Israel, will bring a halt to the majority of illegal entries. There is nothing wrong with the US enforcing its immigration laws and the security of its border. Wherever in the world the guard is let down on migration, it is exploited. Europe is now paying the price for being slack about its borders. It has encouraged a flood in illegal migrants from Africa. The fact remains that, unchecked, the number of illegal is limitless. There will always be the excuse that life is better in the US. The long-term solution is to ensure that only legal migration is accepted, and that developing countries need to significantly increase job opportunities within their own borders. They need to stop using the west as a safety valve for their corruption and poor economic progress.

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» You are crazy Posted by: Citizendeane
» No, you are hyperbolic Posted by: brunowe
» Pesky little word, racism Posted by: Citizendeane
» Leture from Herr Citizendeane Posted by: Citizendeane
This proves good ideas are out there
Posted by: oldsmobile on Mar 24, 2006 3:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article proves that the good ideas for our future are out there. The problem is, these decisions are impossible to make in the current political and economic climate.

This has to be changed.

It is funny, how when the Eye of Mordor is focused on the struggle in a far away land, the hobbitses go about their own business in the US's back yard.

Not that I'm calling south americans hobbits or anything of the sort.

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The New Nazis
Posted by: Citizendeane on Mar 24, 2006 4:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The criminalization of immigrants is very much like the policy of Nazi Germany. It is part of a war of xenophobic racist aggression. Save lives? You see it in Iraq: make those rag heads live like we do by burtal occupation. You see it in Palestine: endless murder and destruction! Hitler believed the New World Order under Nazi authority would be a peaceful world order-- as Saddam's society was peaceful under his order of repression.That is how Nazis propose to "save lives". Murderous exclusion and murderous repression under a dictatorship-- that is what the Sensenbrenner bill and its supprters are calling for. Looks familiar doesn't it?

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» Got it all wrong Posted by: Bobsays
» Nationality is race! Posted by: Citizendeane
» RE: Nationality is race! Posted by: cry0fan
» We are on the same side! Posted by: Citizendeane
» RE: Nationality is race! Posted by: cry0fan
» Racism? Say it isn't so! Posted by: Citizendeane
» I will try to explain it Posted by: Citizendeane
» RE: Got it all wrong Posted by: YogiBear
Conflicting Logic
Posted by: dlf on Mar 24, 2006 5:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bill, which has set off alarms in immigrant communities, would make it a crime (rather than a civil violation) to be undocumented or to offer aid to the undocumented.

This is a perfect example of the lack of veracity used by those who promote amnesty and guest worker programs. It is already a crime and there is punishment in place for both the illegal immigrant and the employer. The problem is there is no enforcement. The real fear here is that the American public will demand enforcement. For instance if an illegal immigrant is caught and deported they have to sign a document promising not to return for ten years. If they violate that agreement they aren't eligable for a green card ever. An employer who is caught hiring illegals is fined 10,000 per person for the first 2 offenses the 3rd time they receive jail time. Those are punishments already in place. So the author of this piece makes it appear that illegals aren't currently breaking a law, they're just violating a social code.

Oscar Chacon, leader of the U.S. Latino immigrant delegation and of Enlaces America, sees "three great obstacles" to a more enlightened U.S. debate. The first, he says, is the "racism and xenophobia" within the mostly white-led immigrants-rights movement in the United States.

Though they are the friends and allies of immigrant-led organizations, the leaders of Beltway-based religious and nonprofit immigration-reform organizations often fail to consider the ideas and proposals of immigrant leaders and their organizations. Chacon expressed dismay that those white leaders, who see themselves and are seen by many as the experts on immigration reform, "underestimate the capacity of people like me." These tendencies, he said, "can often lead to the exclusion from the debate of those most impacted by the policies."


Chacon argues for the rights of illegal immigrants above the rights of those Americans most effected by a lack of immigration reform. But he views the rights of non-citizens above those of citizens. He complains that his voice isn't heard, what about the voices of native Blacks and Hispanics who are calling for reform, but aren't being heard, are we not entitled to representation within the same White power structure he rails against?

He links current migration to US policies that supported death squads and slave labor, I also link our current immigration policy to a country, that's supported slavery as part of our social construct from our very inception. This country still has fissures stemming from that time, but refuses to acknowledge or correct itself. So we have illegal immigrants saying we are bound to correct ourselves by continuing the assault on those native communities within the country. These countries have proven to be as astute as America at subjugating their African descended citizens. How are we responsible for that? And how is their inclusion here going to correct their treatment of their Black citizens? It won't because not one of these stories has even informed Americans of the racist policies of Mexico, Brazil, and points in between. How many people even know that these countries have Black people? How many Americans are aware that our hostile immigration policy towards Haiti is directly related to the fact that Haiti is the only Black country to take their freedom back from Europeons? America has supported brutal tyrants there and ousted its first democratically elected President. If these immigrant's rights groups are truly interested in the rights of all immigrants why aren't they in the streets protesting when we return Chinese and Haitians? Because this movement is xenophobic.

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» RE: Conflicting Logic Posted by: dlf
Activists of both the Left and Right are Ideological Cattle
Posted by: cry0fan on Mar 24, 2006 5:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is amazing to see how similar the American Left and Right are. They each center around issues that help the rich and powerful and the upper class. And they each offer a lip service to pet issues of their constituency.

The Right is all about economic freedom and the war machine. And they offer lip service to stopping immigration and abortion. In reality the elite that control and comprise both the GOP and the Dems have no intention of stopping either immigration or abortion. Both provide more fodder for the labor supply. Abortion keeps women working and mass immigration keeps the labor supply growth ahead of the labor demand growth. And when labor supply exceeds labor demand, wages are depressed and wealth flows from the workers to capital, i.e., to the elite.

And the Left? Well, they are PRO-immigration and pro-diversity/multiculturalist. And that mass immigration keeps the labor supply increasing faster than the labor demand. More money for the elite, less money for American citiznes, especially blue collar workers, lower income workers, middle income workers. But that helps out the upper class. Less money to spend on costs of living,like on nannies, etc. And pro-diversity is social engineering that uses race guilt to force Americans to accept all that cheap and desperate 3rd world immigrant labor.

And what lip service issues are there on the left? Universal haelthcare and welfare state!

Looking at the American political scene is like watching a nature wildlife documentary. In observing nature you can see how each aspect of a certain animal serves some evolutionary purpose, such as for gathering food or sexual reproduction. The giraffe has a long neck to gather leaves in trees. THe male peacock has ostentatious feathers to attract the female, etc.

So too is the political ecosystem of America. Each political party ideology and platform is molded so as to be friendly to the upper class. The Awesome Power of Propaganda!

Just animals are shaped by the environmental forces of their ecosystems, so too are the political issues of both parties shaped so as to conform to the desires of the elite. And the hoi polloi seem oblivious to this.

The elite control the political ideology of America to such a degree that all political issues are shaped to serve them, jsut as the giraffe's nack is shaped by its environment.

And what is so amazing is that this American political ecosystem is invisible to those who live in it. Especially the most politically aware of Americans. It seems as if the more politically involved an American is, the less able they are to see the forest for the trees.

Mass immigration hurts Americans. Can you not see the forest for the trees?
What about your social contract with your fellow Americans?
Are you so caught up in elite propaganda that you cannot think for yourself?

The Activists of both the left and Right are so owned by propaganda that they are like ideological cattle.

Do not let yourself be ideologically domesticated by them. Their propaganda is based on false race-guilt propaganda and a propaganda appeal to your desire for high social status.

RESIST!

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» That is not a left program Posted by: Citizendeane
» RE: That is not a left program Posted by: Citizendeane
"Legal" immigration has always worked well in the US.
Posted by: Prophit on Mar 24, 2006 6:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why?? Because it limits the number and allows time for those immigrating to learn the language, culture, ensures no disease is being brought in that doens't already exist, ensures no criminals, mentally ill or otherwise undesireable elements are allowed in, and it ensures that terrorists posing as immigrants can't breach our newly needed security.

So what is wrong with legal immigration? It supports the nation, its sovereignty and its culture and allows those who use the legal way an ability to adapt without fear, trauma or otherwise slave use of their labor.

If they are illegal, then they are horribly exploited. Why isn't that mentione by this guy who is talking to us? Doesn't he care that those who come here are able to earn a living wage? What is his agenda on this?

Europe has shown us what can happen when that integration is not done. Then you destroy the very fabric of the nation being invaded. The country becomes an enclave of multicultural, multilanguage and multireligious groups who are then nations within the larger context of the nation being invaded.

Illegal immigration puts pressure on law enforcement because many are criminals, on the medical system since many are sick with hepititas A,B, and C which is easily passed on to those of us who don't have it here.

Every nation represents the people who are its citizens and their welfare and wellbeing is what it must serve first and others second. No taxes are paid by illegals, resources are used that are funded by the residing citizens to support these illegals and none of it is repaid in kind by those being exploited.

Help to rebuild the nations they are coming from unless they are a 2 class society and then it will be impossible to aid them since their leaders rape and pillage their population for wealth similar to what Bush and his cronies are currently doing to the US.

I am against unfettered and uncontrolled illegal immigration of any kind from anywhere.

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» Agreed. Again. Posted by: ABetterFuture
Premises are incorrect
Posted by: brunowe on Mar 24, 2006 6:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The second obstacle, he explained, is the "obsolete policy-making system" in the United States. "Just look at Congress. Immigration policy made in the House or Senate Judiciary Committee has no relationship to the Committee [on International Relations] or Western Hemisphere Subcommittee." Making things worse, he added, "is that most of the 'immigrant rights advocates' submit themselves to this silo approach to public policy."

The third obstacle, according to Chacon, is the limitations on debate imposed by what he calls the "nation-state paradigm," which defines immigration as an issue to be dealt with by individual countries. "Immigration is a global issue with global causes and requires a global solution," Chacon said.


There's nothing wrong with the nation-state paradigm. Sovereign countries have the right to decide their own internal policies, like who gets to live there. The fact that there are effects on people on the outside who want to come in doesn't make it any less an internal matter. That's why it's appropriate for such legislation to come out of the Judiciary Committee as opposed to an internation relations committee sub-committee.

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The Right and the Left
Posted by: Citizendeane on Mar 24, 2006 7:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans completely fail to understand the Left. The Left advocates equality for all citizens and all members of society. We do not advocate the importation of subservient immigrant labor or canon fodder. Americans, please try and get your categories straight. Critical remarks concerning "free immigration" are correct if directed against corporate conservatives. Many well meaning people mistake corporate conservatism for a false progressivism and for the Left. Please direct your ire to those who deserve it! The left advocates immigrants be treated as equal persons with a real claim for citizenship and a full place in society, not treated as the newest and most exploited category at the bottom level of corporate servitude.

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» commies in my sock drawer Posted by: chasaturn
» So you are a "red socks" fan? Posted by: Citizendeane
» Are you serious? Posted by: Citizendeane
Let's build a wall around Texas
Posted by: chasaturn on Mar 24, 2006 9:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...just to keep the politicians and politics there from coming up here into the civilized world and screwing things up. Better yet, run the wall from El Paso to Virginia.

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We need to support LEGAL immigration
Posted by: zooeyhall on Mar 24, 2006 10:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, having a wave of illegal immigrants enter the U.S. is NOT a good thing. Please understand, people, that these immigrants are being brought in for ONE THING ONLY: AS CHEAP LABOR TO FURTHER UNDERMINE UNIONS, WAGES, AND WORKING CONDITIONS FOR THE LOWER/MIDDLE CLASS!!!

And please, do not automatically call anyone who opposes ILLEGAL immigration a racist, redneck, etc.!

Please look at one of the main groups supporting un-restricted immigration: the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Do you think they want these people here because Chamber members are weeping about the economic/social hardships these immigrants are having at home? NO!! It is purely selfish economic reasons that the Chamber has as their motivation.

If Progressives took a stand on the issue of ILLEGAL vs. LEGAL immigration on the side of legality, and adressing the issues about how bringing in hordes of super-cheap labor undermines the working class; we could gain a lot of support among the "undecided" electorate in this country to swing to our side.

Please, don't learn the wrong lessons from history. This is NOT the U.S. of the early 1900's when jobs were plentiful, land could be had in the Midwest, etc.

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» RE: You're right! Posted by: FedUp
Possible Solutions (?)
Posted by: FedUp on Mar 24, 2006 10:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps the time really has come for the U.S. to build a high, fortified wall the length of its southern border, with armed troops, paid in part by the border states, and partly by the federal government; it would be somewhat unfair for states such as Alaska, Hawaii, Idaho, Minnesota to pay heavily in to the cost.
In total length, it would extend quite a few miles, given the topography of the region, so it's cost and construction would engage a number of American companies and their employees, working diligently, for a long time. Added to that are the necessities of materiel, housing, services etc., much of which can be supplied by the towns and villages proximate to the construction zones.
But, I think that in order for the wall to have its greatest impact and deterrence, some political and international policies would also be useful.
Currently, there are seven Latin American nations that are moving to the left, with a potential for Mexico, if the democratic process is allowed to proceed without interference and Andrés Manuel López Obrador can succeed Vicente Fox.
So, the question is; would the people and government of the U.S., be willing and diligent about backing away from a century and a half of interference in Latin America?
Would the American public rein in the corporations that have sacked and pillaged the region for so long, with the support of American troops? You remember: Somoza, Banzer, Stroessner, Pinochet, Batista, Carlos Andres Pérez, Cedillo, Duvalier, etc., and their U.S, supported repressive régimes?
Would the American public be willing to do away with economic treaties that in essence have created wage slaves?
Would the American public be willing to allow Latin America to sell its raw materials to the highest global bidder?
Would it stop American corporations from privatising the natural resources of Latin America so that the people of these newly democratic states could find their own way in the global market place, without mortgaging their own wealth to the U.S. be a fair exchange?
The U.S. could then go about the business of creating its own Utopia, within its own borders.
Perhaps it's time for Latin America to look for partners and allies somewhere other than down in the north.
It can turn to Japan, China, South Korea, India, Finland, Ireland, France, Spain, Germany, Italy and Israel for technology; trains its population; use its raw materials, and sell to whomever it wishes.
But the key is for the U.S. to stop meddling, and undermining the entire hemisphere soley for its gain - to the deteriment of millions of people that in a desperate bid for survival, have immigrated.

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» Here's an example.... Posted by: FedUp
Serious Question
Posted by: FedUp on Mar 24, 2006 11:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The popular number that is seen everywhere is that there are 12 million illegals immigrants in the U.S.
Has someone gone door-to-door doing a census?
Anyway, the numbers aren't too important - give or take a million.
My question: How is this process of repatriation going to take place? Isn't it going to require alot of manpower?
How is a country that can't locate one 6'5" Saudi, dragging a dialysis machine, going to round up so many people?
Is this going to happen before, or after the wall is built?
Are you going to create "citizen commitees" that are going to be going from house to house, business to business, to ferret out all the illegals?
Once you capture them - then what? Are you going to create detention camps? Who will be responsible for their food, clothing, housing, and medical attention? Will it be less costly to the state than if they had been fending for themselves?
Will a bounty be placed on their heads?
What happens if innocent people are mistakenly rounded up? Will a "So sorry, you looked illegal." be the patented answer?
You know, the devil is in the details. Just thought I'd ask.

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» RE: Serious Question Posted by: patti_s
» RE: Serious Question Posted by: FedUp
» RE: Serious Question Posted by: dlf
Sorry. When I got to "militarized and racist policies" you lost me.
Posted by: Sojourner on Mar 24, 2006 11:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who doesn't want to violate the wall is free to enter by the door. I'll believe that you aren't the one being militarized and racist when you take the locks off your doors at home. It's an exact analogy.

I hope that in the part of the article I could not get to because I cannot stomach your half-truths (don't we get enough of that from the Bushies?) there is mention of the militarization of Mexico's southern border. If not, then take a hike! Take a hike anyway.

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» Keep your door locked....... Posted by: Michiganman
If you want to stem the immigrant tide...
Posted by: FedUp on Mar 24, 2006 1:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
put pressure on your government to stop strong-arming Latin American governments into doing the following:
Read this

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Democrat leaders out of step
Posted by: Moonray on Mar 24, 2006 1:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The goofy "Immigrants should be free to break the law by coming here illegally" argument won't wash with most Americans. Democratic leaders are in for a rude awakening if they think they can vote for permissive solutions and get away with it.

I consider myself a proud liberal, but the immigration situation is out of control and must be corrected. That means securing the borders and deporting most of those here illegally. Period.

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stop Mass Immigration, both legal and illegal
Posted by: cry0fan on Mar 24, 2006 2:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is not just illegal immigration that is killing our economic opportunities here in America for American citizens, it is also LEGAL immigration.

Every time an immigrant comes in and takes a job without having grown up here in America, and having created an economic demand during that period of growing up, that instant supply of labor causes the growth of the labor supply to increase faster than the demand for labor. When a person grows up here, he increases the demand for labor while growing up. But immigrants never did.

That is how the elite depress wages,

Stop mass immigration now.

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NATIVES
Posted by: Abushite on Mar 24, 2006 2:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Surely the only people in the US who have right to determine who should enter their country are the Red Indians - anyone
else were/are illegal immigrants ?

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» RE: NATIVES Posted by: FedUp
Oppresive laws and the wall of death are not the solution!
Posted by: Claudia on Mar 24, 2006 7:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What many people don't know or don't want to acknowledge is that US foreign policy is responsible in great part for the
economic and political conditions that trigger emigration to the US.
Political repression, unemployment and poverty have been consequences of the US cold war and neo-liberal policies in Latin America.
Oppresive laws and the wall of death are not the solution to the immigration problem. A step in the right direction should include fair (not free) trade agreements, living wages, respect of labor and environmental laws by multi-national corporations, and the halting of military and political intervention in Latin American countries.

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» AGREE 10,000% Claudia Posted by: Michiganman
I'm here....slam the door
Posted by: Michiganman on Mar 24, 2006 7:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow I can't beleive what i'm hearing here. Lefties are turning far right on this issue. It's hard to blame you in the current economic situation in this country. The rich corporate elitist will turn uncontrolled immigration into a lower wage for us all. But it is not the fault of the immigrant. It's the twisted way big business has turned traitor to our own country. Busting unions plus outsourcing equals doom for us all. You can wall in the country but it won't stop the greedy corporate pigs from sucking us dry. Either way they will come out on top!
If we could take all this immigrantion fear and turn it into energy to force corporations to pay a living wage we could accomadate twice our population. But that will be hard to do since our government is suckling at the corporate tit. Can't you see controlling immigration will only slow our downward slide? Shouldn't we be more interested in forcing the conglomerate pigs to be benevolent employers, importers? Dealing only with like minded countries/companies, closing the borders to ruthless greed, not people. Then we could live comfortable lives and immigrants would still start at the bottom but have an excellent oppurtunity to advance, like our forefathers did! And don't give me that "more people now, it's different crap". The economy has always grown with the population, although manipulated to create low wages.
One last thought, my family came here in 1553(true) and I have more right to be here than you! Your just a later dirty butt immigrant.
How does that feel?

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» A common language and history??? Posted by: Michiganman
» Arghh. Very late. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Interesting Posted by: Michiganman
Lecture from Citizendeane
Posted by: Citizendeane on Mar 25, 2006 4:58 AM   
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I am not saying that a RESTRICTIVE immigration policy is by itself fascism. That is nonsense and I am not saying it. First of all, I am speaking about the CRIMINALIZATION of immigrants, the Sensenbrenner Bill. Secondly, I am saying that authoritarian national supremacism is fascism and if it strives for world supremacy it is Nazism. And, yes, restrictive immigration policies in nation states are implicitly racist, because nations are racial communities. What bothers you people so much is what I am implying! In my view, the Bush regime is authoritarian, ultra-conservative, extreme nationalist and following a brutal policy of world supremacy. It is in essence not merely fascist but in foreign policy much like Hitler. You cannot ignore the brutality of this regime both at home and abroad. When people accept his xenophobic immigration policies without saying explicitly what it is part of then they are accepting a fascist regime and program.If you support parts of Bush's program without clearly and forcefully saying what his program is you wind-up supporting the entire program even if you do not mean to do so. Unfortunately, the world is complex, not simple! If you care to argue against my position, which is well-defined, complex and coherent, you must not over simplify and reduce it to silliness. I have good and clear reasons for everything I say on matters of politics and political theory. I am a political theorist not a casual observer (one of the regular suspects, so to speak). If you want to play this game, take it seriously.

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» teach grandma how to suck eggs Posted by: Citizendeane
» Hooray, a philosoper! Posted by: Citizendeane
» Thank you. Posted by: Sojourner
» You are welcome Posted by: Citizendeane
» I'm studying here..... Posted by: Michiganman
» you do work in WI? Posted by: Citizendeane
» I apologize! Posted by: Citizendeane
» RE: You are welcome Posted by: Sojourner
» Best of luck to you as well Posted by: Citizendeane
Our Economy cannot support this overwhelming Invasion of Immigrants
Posted by: lorettakoons1 on Mar 25, 2006 7:14 AM   
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Apparently no one who is in favor of immigration has had their neighborhood overrun by these very poor people. Very poor people will steal, cheat and kill to survive. My neighborhood is over run. I have been robbed, my animals killed by their dogs running loose. My property value has been cut in half because I am now surrounded by a hispanic ghetto. I lost over $100,000.00 in property value. Every morning over a hundred children from the trailer park they live in catch the school buses. I have worked over 30 years paying escalated property taxes because of the stupid law passed by Congress in the 70's or 80's saying we had to educate, medicate, feed, house and clothe these people. Every morning I drive to work past 20 or 30 mothers putting their children on the bus and going back home to sit around all day and wait for their children to come home. They are young childbearing age but don't go to work to support their children as I had to do for mine because my property taxes skyrocketed when they moved in the neighborhood. What about the interests of the people who are surrounded by them. My children and their friends have a hard time finding jobs because they are not bilingual. These people are not migrant farm workers they take the highpaying jobs away from our own citizens. Mexico and other South American countries will not allow us to come there and take jobs from their people. Is this whole country insane? We are supporting these people with money borrowed from the Chinese and Japanese governments. We are bankrupt. Wake up we can't support everyone in South America. I am DEMOCRAT, my ancestors were DEMOCRATS. Maybe I should be a REPUBLICAN. Looks like they are finally waking up to the problem.

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» Maybe it's time you listened. Posted by: Sojourner
» Thanks, you write very well. Posted by: Citizendeane
» CitDeen, Oh I get it..... Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: CitDeen, Oh I get it..... Posted by: Citizendeane
I don't like Sensenbrenner's bill,
Posted by: Krotos on Mar 25, 2006 11:09 AM   
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particularly the provision that would make either being an illegal immigrant or helping one a felony. That's just stupid. What are we going to do, put illegals in prison for a few years before deporting them? How many billions of dollars will that cost? Our prisons are already too full and should be reserved for people who actually pose a danger to society.

Nevertheless, a very good case can be made for limiting immigration. If you look at the history of immigration to the United States, there's been a conspicuous cycle consisting of four or five decades of liberal immigration policies followed by a similar length of time during which immigration was highly restricted. The previous period of open immigration was from about 1880 to 1920, when the ancestors of most of today's Irish-, Italian-, and Jewish Americans came to the country. The majority population felt just as economically threatened by the Irish, Italians, and Jews back then as it does by Latino immigrants today (e.g., the infamous "No Irish need apply" help-wanted signs), and viewed them with just as much suspicion, as low-class, crime-prone aliens who would radically alter America's culture and values if they became too numerous.

Starting in the 1920s, immigration became very restricted and remained that way until the mid-1960s. That was a very good thing for the newly arrived groups. It allowed them a generation or two to be fully assimilated into the broader society, a process made much easier when they were no longer perceived as invaders. Today, no one would be uncomfortable if their child married someone with a last name like Minelli or O'Reilly, or even think twice about it.

I'd like it very much if no one thought twice about their child marrying someone with a last name like Gomez or Ruiz. And to that end, I think we're overdue for another period of restricted immigration so that Latinos can become just as fully integrated into American society and culture as people of Irish, Italian, and Jewish descent are.

-K.Ai.-

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I'm sorry. What happened?
Posted by: Narco-NYC on Mar 26, 2006 5:55 AM   
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So basically, nothing happened at this event?
I remember having to cover forums like this and injecting my own opinons just to fill-out this story. But I was never proud of these efforts.
Here's the deal. Right now there are groups of dozens of men on Roosevelt Avenue in Queens, totalling thousands, who will work today for construction contractors. Are they taking jobs from the million or so New Yorkers who don't have jobs?
Of course they are!
You don't believe that Americans would bust-concrete all day? Try being unemployed for two years. Brother, your attitude will change, and quick!
Americans have every right to say, thank you, now go home.

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