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Did the Pro-Choice Movement Save America?

By Rachel Fudge, AlterNet. Posted February 17, 2006.


AlterNet speaks with Cristina Page, the author of a controversial new book about the state of sex, morality and abortion rights in America.
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Did the Pro-Choice Movement Save America?

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In her new book, How the Pro-Choice Movement Saved America: Freedom, Politics, and the War on Sex (Basic Books), Cristina Page boldly declares that the pro-choice movement is "doing a better job at what the public understands to be the pro-life agenda than the pro-lifers are": that is, not only dramatically reducing the number of abortions in the United States, but also putting forth (and achieving) a truly pro-family, pro-child vision of life in America.

Page, a veteran of the editorial departments of Glamour and Ms. magazines, and the current vice president of the Institute for Reproductive Health Access at NARAL Pro-Choice New York, describes how she had been searching for a pro-life counterpart with whom she could engage in a reasoned, honest search for common ground. She found one: a feminist-identified woman who worked for a Right to Life chapter, and on the 30th anniversary of Roe v. Wade in 2003, they published a jointly authored op-ed in the New York Times.

"The Right to Agree" laid out a series of shared goals, including pro-family and pro-child policies like affordable child care and support for single mothers, an end to violence and violent language in the abortion debate, and the adoption of legislation mandating that health insurance cover contraceptives. While pro-choicers responded with mild support, pro-lifers were outraged, particularly at the statement of support for broad access to contraception. It was then that Page realized that the anti-contraception pro-lifers were not, as she'd assumed, on the fringe of the movement but rather the ones who set its agenda.

Referring to the book's relatively slim profile (it weighs in at just 236 pages), Page described it as "in many ways a breezy tour through frightening truths," but How the Pro-Choice Movement Saved America is tenaciously researched and extensively documented (40 of those pages are endnotes). Digging deep into the evidence, Page unveils the hidden anti-contraception agenda of the pro-life movement and outlines how how close we are to losing not only the constitutional right to abortion provided by Roe but also our rights to safe, accessible contraception.

AlterNet met up with Page at her San Francisco hotel.

Rachel Fudge: You describe your book as an attempt to seek out common ground between the pro-choice and the pro-life movements. What did you find?

Cristina Page: What I tried to do in this book is to say, Let's put on the table that [abortion] is something we don't want to have happen at the frequency that it is, or even at all. Those are the terms with which we'll discuss this. And when that happens, you begin to realize that [the pro-life side] is not interested in that. The greatest irony is that reducing abortion has become problematic for them, and it's because their aim is not pure.

Their aim is not about reducing abortion -- it includes restricting people's access to contraception, it includes transforming our sex lives, it includes transforming our families. That's the goal, and [restricting abortion] is just one vehicle toward that end.

RF: When you talk about the pro-life movement, you're really talking about the leaders of organizations like the American Life League and National Right to Life, who are going further than what many Americans want to see happen. It seems like there's a disjunction between the leadership of the pro-life organizations and the mass of Americans who are deeply ambivalent about abortion -- the ones who in the polls say they think abortion is wrong, but who also say they don't want to lose Roe.

CP: I tried to make a very clear distinction between pro-life Americans -- the [people] who believe that abortion needs to be prevented and [its rate] reduced -- and pro-life organizations, who have political gains outside of this issue. They're very different, in large part because if pro-life Americans actually knew what their handiwork resulted in, they would not be sending donations to these groups. If they knew that the pro-choice movement was doing a better job at what they understand to be pro-life goals than the pro-life movement is, then they would act accordingly.

Recent statistics say that 66 percent of Americans don't want Roe v. Wade overturned, [yet] only 51 percent consider themselves pro-choice. So what we're seeing is an unreported-upon third of the pro-life movement that wants to keep abortion legal but find ways of preventing the need for it, which I think is so important for us to understand at this point.

One thing that I think makes the pro-choice and the pro-life movements very different is that [pro-choicers] believe in science, and we believe in independent self-direction. Pro-lifers believe in a creator, and that everything is predetermined. Those entry points into this issue very much affect the way in which both sides behave. For example, even though we are the designers and creators of all the grassroots tactics -- the marches, the sit-ins, the letter-writing, the ballots and the petitions -- those tools are used much better now by the Christian right than they are by [the left]. When they get marching orders on a daily basis to call their representative, to tell a company that they're boycotting them, to flood radio stations with phone calls, to thank a senator, to stand outside a building with a sign, they do it.

RF: The PR angle seems so important. You see this all over the left, with feminists, pro-choicers, liberals -- all of these movements that have lost not only the language but the fight for the public-image campaigns. For instance, in Bush's State of the Union Address, when he trumpets the declining numbers of abortions, he's not congratulating NARAL and Planned Parenthood, even though that's who deserves the credit. You don't ever hear that publicly.

CP: I'm glad you mentioned that, because I wrote an op-ed last week about [how Bush is] misleading America -- no one published it, by the way. Those figures Bush was using were from 2002. This man has absolutely no right to take credit for what we know to be the work of the Clinton administration and the pro-choice movement's policies. It was a misleading statement.

The fact is, Clinton wasn't strutting around on the dais like the cock of the roost during his administration about what we know were the actual declining numbers because we didn't know [it] at the time -- and we don't know what's going on now. We won't know until after Bush's administration is over.

But I will say this: While the legacy of Clinton remains -- we have more contraceptives available than ever before in history; more people have health-insurance coverage for their contraceptives; emergency contraceptives are more available than ever before, even though people misunderstand what it is and that keeps them from using it -- in that speech Bush was asking the American public to believe that the diametrically opposite policies had led to these declining numbers.

He was saying, "I have taken a course of action that is leading in the exact opposite direction of what we know are proven ways to [reduce the numbers of abortions and teenage pregnancies], and I expect that the same exact results will come from the exact opposite policies."

RF: Mentioning declining abortion rates and abstinence in the same breath was quite clever.

CP: And no one called him on it. I have not read one person in this country calling him on that fact. Now, if it were the NSA or it were about WMDs Whether or not [women] have access to contraception and safe access to services will impact us immediately, far more than an Al Qaida cell in Afghanistan. I don't mean to minimize those issues, but I don't see the media covering it -- with the exception of a handful [of progressive outlets]. I don't see this debate happening among the people the public needs to hear from.

For example, the Vatican is putting out claims that the condom can cause the spread of AIDS. The Vatican is trying to make these religious arguments by [using] science and misinterpreting and misusing scientists' materials. The only one to cover the story was the BBC. They went back to every single scientist that the Vatican used and said, Let's see what you actually did say, and all of them said resoundingly that they believed that condoms are the only method besides not having sex at all that will protect you against HIV/AIDS. The BBC alone did that -- I never saw anyone follow up on it.

RF: One of the most chilling parts of your book is your chapter on the Bush administration's defunding of UNFPA in 2002, describing how a handful of extremists were able to have a dramatic global effect, and the way that they have safe harbor in the Bush administration.

CP: First of all, it's important to note that UNFPA has nothing to do with abortion. They don't provide abortion services; they simply are the largest contraceptive distributor to developing nations. In fact, their work leads to fewer abortions. Contraception may be a hallmark of how we live [in the United States] and how we base our lives, but in developing nations, this is a life-saving technology. If you don't have good obstetric care, and if you get pregnant too early or too late in life, or too quickly after a previous pregnancy, that's life-endangering. When you see in these countries the maternal death rate because there's no access to contraception compared to countries that have widespread access to contraception, you know: You know that [UNFPA and other agencies are] doing God's work by getting these techniques to the people who need them most.

Six people in Front Royal, Va., in a religious office park campus, have led these slanderous campaigns against, and in many ways terrorized, UNFPA workers. [Representatives of PRI went] into Yugoslavia and claimed that [UNFPA is] involved in ethnic cleansing because they're handing out birth-control pills to people who've been raped as an act of war. It's unbelievable to see this, and to see the full-blown nature of vindictiveness and how sinister their goals are. The pro-life movement in the United States is the international pro-life movement.

That's the truth, and it really is leading to the most paradoxical of outcomes: more abortions. More maternal death, more infant death. Pro-lifers [in the United States] need to understand this.

That's really what I hope to do with this book. It may be loud and bombastic, and titled in a way that maybe some pro-life people find offensive, but this is a common-ground book. It's from somebody who has wanted an honest discussion about this for a long time; I'm forcing that discussion to happen.

RF: What kind of response have you gotten from pro-lifers?

CP: When I have heard from reasoned people who disagree about the morality of abortion, what I've heard is that these are facts that they were not aware of but are of deep concern to them, that they are glad to have a debate in a thoughtful way, and that they appreciate what I'm saying. And then they typically go on to tell me all the ways in which I'm wrong: It was wrong for me to get Roseanne Barr to blurb the book, it was wrong for me to claim that we can't legislate good parenting through parental-consent legislation. So they take me to task, but I think the important part is that the conversation has begun, and at the right volume and in the right setting. I'm very encouraged by the pro-life reaction -- when they have heard and understand it, when they've given themselves the chance to not judge this book by its cover and instead judge it by its content. Hopefully that's just a bellwether of things to come.

RF: What might the bright spots be in all of this?

CP: I would love to find a pro-lifer who is reasoned, solution-oriented, who can engage on this in a forum -- I won't even say a debate because maybe what we'll discover is that we have more in common than we once thought -- in crowds of people, in churches, on college campuses. That's what I'm hoping for.

I do think that we need a kind of talking tour that happens in town-hall-like settings in which people are willing to engage in this in a practical way. It's an emotional debate, and I think a lot of people are afraid to enter into it. They're afraid of the acrimony and anger, and, sadly, the few on the fringe have dictated the climate in which this debate can happen, so we've all been subject to it.

RF: You illustrate this in the beginning of your book, when you talk about the New York Times op-ed piece ("The Right to Agree") that you wrote with a feminist-leaning pro-life leader, who was then ostracized by her community.

CP: I have very great affection for her. I think she was very brave to do what she did. It's someone like her who will understand and see this book for what it is. I think she will agree on many points, and I think she will disagree on many points. But I think what her takeaway will be is that this is an extension of our work [together]. I don't mean to overblow what they did, but the reaction that we got from her side was so revolting; this is my impassioned response to them. It's coming to her defense in many ways. To me, she was the mainstream of her movement and she was intimidated into silence. We need to raise the voice of the reasonable, honest, true pro-lifer in this country and not one that speaks in placards behind which there is no proof that what they do has any positive effect. That has to end. For me, to see that hope dashed when she was put in her place and rebuked so clearly was the final straw.

RF: Some have argued that we need a change in the framing and nomenclature of the movement -- that we shouldn't call them pro-life, because they don't deserve that term. Then there are other people saying we need to get rid of the pro-choice/pro-life distinction because we need a middle way of bringing people together.

CP: I use the term "pro-life," and I was prepared for more resistance on the part of my colleagues to that. But the reason I did that was very calculating: Because I had the opportunity here to show what results from their work, I did not want to rename them; I wanted to affiliate them with the awful outcomes that their work leads to.

You know, Love Canal used to sound like a great place to live until we found out what was beneath the surface. We didn't change it to some other name like Poison Lake; it remained Love Canal. We need to do the same with the pro-life movement: We need to not be afraid to call them by what the American public understands them to be, and then really expose what their work leads to. Then I think it won't sound as quaint and touching as it does now. I think people might begin to question whether it's a title that accompanies their value system.

In every speaking engagement I've done on the book, I'd had people come up to me and say, "I'm pro-life and I'm pro-choice." I think that's where we need to be.

Because pro-choicers rely on science, and so much of our language is born out of fact and evidence, we're hampered in some sense. We can't come up with these inaccurate soundbites that are very seductive, like "partial-birth abortion." Doctors would never come up with that term because it's inaccurate. In some ways we're hampered by the truth. It's kind of like we're the nonfiction version, and they're the fiction version -- we're science, and they're science fiction.

In that way we're not equal opponents. We're playing different games. They have the advantage of using whatever is at their disposal, while we walk the straight and narrow line of what's fact and truth. That's hard in the messaging game. We maintain, and they destroy.

As a mother of a 2-year-old, I can tell you it's much harder to keep the place neat and ordered than it is for him to mess it all up. What takes him five minutes takes me 40 minutes to clean up, and that's the difference. We're trying to maintain and pick up the pieces, and they're coming in wreaking havoc.

Furthermore, Planned Parenthood is one of the largest pro-choice organizations in the country, but they're a health care organization. They're delivering services, They have clients; they care for them. They are not just a political arm like Focus on the Family. Focus on the Family doesn't have any services; they don't offer clients anything; they're not delivering any critical care to people. These are equal organizations in wealth. But we have to draw into question the relative wealth of these organizations. Planned Parenthood's operating budget isn't all being expended in messaging campaigns to people, and so the relative wealth of these two movements is critical, too, in framing these debates. I think the public thinks they're matched enemies, but it's a David-and-Goliath scenario when it comes to financing.

RF: A central argument of your book is that the pro-choice movement has to a great degree created the America we live in today.

CP: I want to stress how young this movement is, how young these laws are. I in many ways physically embody what the pro-choice movement is: Not only because I'm exhausted and feel like I'm always on the brink of needing to stay in bed for the day, but because I'm 35, I'm in an equal marriage, I'm college-educated, I bring home half of the income in my family, my husband is expected to be as nurturing to my child as I am, and we plan our family. A woman like me, a woman like you, has never before existed. A man like my husband -- the men who are involved in their families as colleagues -- has never existed before either.

We're only beginning to take stock of what this means for us as a country and who we are. We look around and see how different our lives are from those who lived in the '50s, and people really need to understand that it is in large part due to family planning. The fact is, we cut poverty in half in just 35-40 years. This is because of these shifting trends in which people have access to education; men [as well as women] have more choice in their jobs now because they're no longer the primary and sole contributor to the family; they can leave a bad job, an abusive environment. They can spend more time with their kids, and they are. All this data shows that children are benefiting wildly from this. Those are investments that we can't truly understand the total of.

We need to make having a family easier for people. There are many women who are having abortions simply because they can't afford to have a child. If that's the case, then there are solutions. Maybe it's making child care more affordable and of better quality. Take the Family and Medical Leave Act, which is cherished by the American people. The American public doesn't understand that 90 percent of the opposition to the FMLA was from pro-lifers. The Children's Defense Fund made a list of the worst legislators for children in this country, the people who are making it harder to have a family and to raise a child by stripping Americans of their health-insurance benefits, their unemployment benefits, basically pulling the rug out from under families. A hundred percent of the people who are listed as the worst are pro-life.

[When I was researching this book,] I was happy to make distinctions and say, Well, we do have evidence that there's a wing of the pro-life movement that supports child care. But [what I found is that] there is no wing. And the opposition that we're facing to these issues is from these pro-life groups. An alarming pattern emerges: Not only do they want to take away legal and safe abortion, they want to stop people from having access to contraception. Coupling with that, they want to strip people of opportunities to put their children -- whether they wanted them or not or can afford them or not -- into child care.

Where does this lead? What is the point of this? How can you be against child care if you're against helping people plan their families? If you don't want to help people have limited numbers of children, why are you stripping them of the very things that make that possible? The only conclusion that this path leads to is one: The modern family is deeply offensive to the Christian right. The family structures in which we are living today, in which both parents are equal and they both bring home a living, they get to choose the number of children they have to what they can support and want -- that is offensive to the pro-life establishment. The whole reason why none of their programs are leading to fewer abortions is because that's simply not the point. The point isn't about abortion, it's about the family. It's about what the family looks like, it's about who's in it, who's leading it, who has the power, and who's the spiritual head.

While it sounds like a cliché, it's the truth, and we can't let the fact that it sounds like a cliché cloud the fact that it's the actual truth of what they're up to. If we ignore it because it seems passé, it will be our reality sooner than we think.

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Rachel Fudge is the senior editor of Bitch: Feminist Response to Pop Culture and a freelance writer.

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MIKE THOMAS
Posted by: mikethomasfioh on Feb 17, 2006 3:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a man and someone who is predominently concerned about third world poverty and the unjust systems that create it, I am a little reticent to enter into this debate.
However, I agree with the approach of the writer in seeking common ground between pro life and pro choice groups.
(I am pro life and anti sexual promiscuity but not anti homosexuality). However, I am not in favour of imposed legislation to reinforce my own point of view.

What I do believe is that if there were greater equality and more focus on basic human values instead of the competition and greed that underpins the way wealth is distributed globally, then far more people would be inclined towards my own views on moral issues such as abortion.
How could I criticise those women forced into the sex trade for reasons of poverty or the women who want an abortion resulting from rape? I cant. But I do at the same time believe that abortion is wrong and would imagine that many women have regretted having made that choice after the event.

It is wrong for pro choice groups to attach a Right wing agenda (prevalent amongst many fundamentalist groups in the Southern States of the USA) to those who have views such as my own. It is also wrong for pro life groups to seek legislation, rather than reasoned argument, to reinforce their point of view.

I believe that more and more people must put aside their differences on abortion and other similar moral issues in a search for common ground on ways to combat the twin crises of our times - Global poverty, global warming and global resource depletion. These are humanity's common enemies and it is the battle none of us can afford to lose.

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» RE: Amen to that Posted by: ShaSpirit
» RE: MIKE THOMAS Posted by: Basenjis
It isn't fiction
Posted by: crusaderrabbit on Feb 17, 2006 4:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read the book, The Handmaiden's Tale. A frightening preview of things to come in America, if the truly radical "Christians" take over.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: It isn't fiction Posted by: cordas
What a shocking read.
Posted by: cordas on Feb 17, 2006 4:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before I say anything I just want to point out that I am English not American.

I must admit I am flabbergasted by reading this, its like a commentary on George Orwells 1984 or Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale.

How can this be happening in an enlightened modern liberal civilisation, or maybe thats my problem. Some parts of America don't want their society to be an enlightened modern liberal civilisation.

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» RE: What a shocking read. Posted by: medstudgeek
» you said it yourself Posted by: bsbremmer
» RE: What a shocking read. Posted by: esactun
» RE: What a shocking read. Posted by: jmoore
» RE: What a shocking read. Posted by: selysse
unfortunate stereotypes
Posted by: pgar on Feb 17, 2006 5:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Certain generalizations that the writer makes are untrue and unfortunate. Although I greatly appreciate her quest for honesty, making statements like "pro-lifers believe in a creator, and pro-choicers believe in science" doesn't help her cause. Such divisive statements are untrue and unfair; there are plenty of pro-choice people who believe in science and a creator. Forcing the two to be mutually exclusive results in a false dichotomy that only alienates the people she is trying to reach.

I am also not quite sure to whom she is referring when she says that "we" invented grassroots tactics. Two of the people who most spring to mind in this forum would be King and Gandhi, two deeply religious men.

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» RE: unfortunate stereotypes Posted by: jonesey
» RE: Excellent post. Wow. Posted by: esactun
» RE: great comment Posted by: ShaSpirit
» RE: unfortunate stereotypes Posted by: Basenjis
Banning Contraception Next
Posted by: Nearleft on Feb 17, 2006 7:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After Roe v. Wade is over-turned, the next target will be legal contraception, as this book shows. This point needs to be made by Democrats who must make clear what is at stake. We are moving toward a theocracy.

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I am a Lysol Baby
Posted by: asque on Feb 17, 2006 7:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Lysol douche did not work. That was the best birth control my parents could come up with in the early '50's. My father knew what was available and effective as he literally grew up in a family drug store. Is this not the type of birth control we want to return to.

Incidentally, my father was quick to point out that the Lysol sold today has different ingredients than the formula used in the past.

Arthur Queen

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Pro-Choice IS Pro-Life
Posted by: mkwagner on Feb 17, 2006 8:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
27 years ago my late husband and I were being pressured to abort our first child because my husband did not have a "pregnancy rider" on his health insurance. What I wanted was the right to choose and not have a choice foisted on me.
I looked at the Citizens for Life and realized that they fought against the legislation--signed into law by then President Carter--which made it illegal for insurance companies to require "pregnancy riders" before they would cover maternity care. My son, now 26 is a father himself and a respected member of his community, thanks to President Carter, a pro-choice president.
The Minnesota chapter fought against legislation that made it illegal to discriminate against pregnant women. Their reasoning is that it took the attention away from the main issue, stopping abortions. I have a number of friends who were forced into abortions they did not want because employers threatened to fire them, landlords threatened to evict them, or universities threatened to take away scholarships and financial aids if they carried their babies to term.
My experience has been that the Pro-choice position has empowered women to protect their children against paternalistic societies that value the passing of wealth from father to heir. The biological relationship to the father being paramount.
I am pro-choice because I firmly believe it is the only way to prevent the senseless slaughter of children. The maternal bond is the best protection an unborn child has against a society that imposes value on an individual before it is born. I am a practicing Catholic. I firmly believe that my views on the issue are more inkeeping with the teachings of Jesus Christ than that of the church hierarchy; one of those paternalistic societies. mkw

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» RE: Pro-Choice IS Pro-Life Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Pro-Choice IS Pro-Life Posted by: mkwagner
» RE: Pro-Choice IS Pro-Life Posted by: mikethomasfioh
The so-called Pro-Lifers can show some honesty by calling themselves Pro-before-life
Posted by: SDres11 on Feb 17, 2006 8:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just look at all their pro-DEATH policies and add them up. Once you're born, there are plenty of policies to kill you this way or that. Pathetic.

P.S.: In case you people don't know, it only takes the South Dakota State Senate and Mike Brown's signature to completely outlaw abortion statewide. And don't be surprised if other states follow suit soon.

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Subtrefuge
Posted by: judithkrain on Feb 17, 2006 8:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the day BEFORE he was innaugurated the first time when he closed the Women's Office in the Whitehouse, George Bush has been eroding women's rights in a systematic way.

I have understanding and empathy for the women who think that abortion is a sin or murder. It's their choice not to have an abortion, just as it's my choice not to have forced pregnancy. I'm not out in the street demonstrating to force women to have abortion and changing laws so that they will be required to abort. I mind my own business and understand that only I know what's in my best interest and I don't need someone to view me as a mental deficient, unable to think and decide for myself.

When women do not have control over their reproductive lives, and safe, legal abortion is part of that control, women will lose. No one puts it better than Dr. George Tiller:

“If you can deny women birth control before the initiation of, shall we say, a personal relationship, if you can deny birth control ahead of time, if you can deny a women emergency contraception at the time of a personal relationship, and if you can deny women abortion services after a pregnancy has become established, then you can control women. Because you will overwhelm them with parenting and child relating responsibilities.

“You will be controlled. You will be subjugated. You will be marginalized. And when subjugation walks in, freedom walks out. Now what do I mean? That means gone will be equal opportunity in the work force. Gone will be equal education. Gone will be equal pay for equal work. Gone will be health care benefits. Gone will b retirement benefits. Your freedoms will be gone. Because this is not about babies. Again, it’s about subjugation of women by male dominated societies. It’s no more; it’s no less.”

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» RE: Subtrefuge Posted by: Envi
» RE: Subtrefuge Posted by: AlphaHusky
LeeAnnG
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Feb 17, 2006 8:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the most interesting (in a kind of Orwellian newspeak way) arguments I've heard recently from the "pro-life" contingent is the amount of tax dollars lost from all the potential citizens who have been aborted. Until I began reading liberal blogs and the corresponding "freeper" responses, I had no idea that the notion of lost revenue even existed.

At first, I wondered if this point of view extended to contraception, but gradually I came to see that it, in fact, does. This article reinforces my growing realization that the pro-life movement is often not about life at all. It's much more about "family values" issues. As George Lakoff points out in his book "Moral Politics" (a much more interesting book than his more popular "Don't Think of an Elephant"), the moral battles in America are being fought over the differences between the "strict father" and "nurturing parent" values. Abortion is surely a manifestation of this struggle.

The lost revenue argument, of course, loses it's resonance if taken to its logical conclusion - that everyone, everywhere should engage in sex as often as possible in order to ensure that every single instance in which a pregnancy might occur is taken advantage of. That way, potential taxpayers are propogated right and left (pun intended). This, obviously, is completely at odds with the strict father agenda since premarital or extramarital sex excludes father/husband consent. It simply points out the extent to which the right wing propaganda machine reaches toward the absurd for its arguments.

Oh, yeah, and never mind that many women seeking abortions might not give birth to responsible, taxpaying citizens, that the environment cannot handle the current growing world populations, or even that the USA produces 25% of the world's pollution and should not be contributing more.

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» RE: Lost Revenue Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Lost Revenue Posted by: Envi
The real problem: Religion
Posted by: Moonray on Feb 17, 2006 8:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The ongoing abortion struggle is just another example of a sad truth: It's religion that fosters the reactionary attitudes that keep us from solving our basic social problems.

Solving those problems will be impossible until the influence of religion -- especially in public policy -- is sharply reduced.

How can this be done? First, by making religious institutions pay their fair share of taxes at all levels. It's blatantly unconstitutional to require taxpayers to subsidize churches, but that is now the case.

Second, pass laws forbidding educational institutions -- all of them, private and public -- from indoctrinating children in religion, or any other theory that is not based on accepted scientific principles. Religion as theory or literature still could be taught, but only if its fallacies and distortions of truth were explained.

If that sounds radical, consider this: Humanity has little time left to settle these disputes peacefully. Religious zealotry in the Mideast and Central Asia soon will result in the use of nuclear weapons and other WMDs. Zealots in our country might well demand that we use nukes first.

America needs to get our own religious extremists under control, then work with the U.N. to do the same worldwide.

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» Unconstitutional Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Unconstitutional Posted by: Envi
» RE: religion isn't the enemy Posted by: AlphaHusky
» RE: religion isn't the enemy Posted by: Rod in 83706
» RE: religion isn't the enemy Posted by: AlphaHusky
» RE: religion isn't the enemy Posted by: AlphaHusky
» Walz decision was wrong Posted by: Moonray
» You are a bigoted fanatic Posted by: brunowe
It's All About Repressing Women
Posted by: mikespindell on Feb 17, 2006 8:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I will definitely buy and read this book because it makes very valuable points. However, the real impetus behind the so-called "Pro-Life" movement is little more than the repression and subjugation of women. What makes this so clear, as the author identifies, is the demand for an end to abortions comes in tandem with a movement to limit contraception.

Some biblical readers take literally the vision of woman as sexual temptress. In this construction innocent males are tempted into sexual licentiousness by females, whose nature is base and evil. Their solution to maintain male sexual purity, or forgive male indiscretion, is to put the onus of the repercussions on females. A female must be made to bear the burden of HER sexual indiscretion, while the male is deemed not culpable.

The leaders of the so-called "Pro-Life" movement are nothing more than male supremacists, who bamboozle their foot soldiers into fighting a war that is different from its' advertised purpose. Given the Bush Administration's Iraq war, it's no surprise. Right Wing tactics always seem to involve deceiving the masses and hiding true agendas, whether from a political or religious perspective.

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WHATS THE MATTER WITH LIBERALS?
Posted by: 10wwjd29 on Feb 17, 2006 9:03 AM   
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Dear Liberals,

I am a pro-life anti-capitalist Catholic progressive who does not understand your ardent defense of abortion "rights" and sexual freedom. You continually condemn the immorality of this administration and the atrocities that are happening around the world but you don't realize that to change the world you must change yourself first. You have a great vision for the world but you cannot live a healthy, spiritual life free from the vices of alcoholism, drugs, and sex. You talk about the horrors of excess consumption and greed in our corrupt society and then you defend your right to have unlimited personal freedom and to do whatever you want with yourself. How do you see an unborn human life as a fundamental right of a woman just because it is in her body? What is the difference between abortion and assisted suicide? This attitude that this is your life, you can do whatever you want, is killing America. You talk about upholding the integrity of the home!? Disposing of unborn babies for matters of convenience doesn't make it morally justifiable, in any case! What happened to self-control? You ask yourself why so many Americans vote conservative when the Republican party clearly doesn't represent their best interest? These people aren't stupid, as some of you may believe. No, they see America going down the shitter morally and your liberal philosophy on life only supports their belief about this "culture of death" that is destroying the values that our country was built on. They see the issue of abortion as the most important issue of all, and your staunch defense of the pro-choice argument is only going to kill yourself as our country stoops to lower levels of immorality. People across America relate abortion and sexual promiscuity to the antithesis of family values and personal integrity. I love your passion for equality and justice and I agree with you, but if we are going to rebuild this world, we are going to rebuild it one person at a time.

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» It's not that simple Posted by: stormchilde1975
» WELL SAID! Posted by: immisha
» See what I mean Posted by: Moonray
» RE: See what I mean Posted by: jonesey
» Immorality Posted by: BlueTigress
» Yes--let's not suffer fools. Posted by: immisha
» You are beautiful Posted by: immisha
» RE: A BRAINWASHED CATHOLIC Posted by: 10wwjd29
» RE: still don't get it Posted by: AlphaHusky
» RE: what is choice? Posted by: jfk12257
Thank Mike Thomas
Posted by: luckypablo on Feb 17, 2006 9:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I couldn't agree more!

Paul Arellano

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Everyone is Pro-Choice
Posted by: anothername on Feb 17, 2006 4:20 PM   
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I attended the Walk for Life and counter demonstration in San Francisco last year with the plan of reporting on the events. I never sold the article, though, because all the publications I contacted said it was a one-day-a-year issue or they didn't want a balanced portrayal that went beyond x people on side 1 vs. y people on side 2.

Personally, what I observed and heard made me realize that the issue is not Anti-Choice vs. Pro-Choice. Instead, for me, the issue is that when a situation comes down to a woman's life versus the potential life of a fetus she is carrying, many men have decided already that the woman must die.

As women in the 1970's who fought to take advantage of the liberalization of gender-based society offered by the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade, a woman's right to decide who will be sacrificed has much to do with women's rights in every other aspect of civil society, business, religion, and government.

The old adage of putting 5 people in a room and you'll get 6 different views of life, conception, and abortion holds true. What it comes down to, though, is a woman's version of what men in battle have discovered: sometimes a life has to be sacrificed for the greater good. Some women believe it is their life that should be given; other women believe a fetus should be sacrificed that the rest of the family might survive or have a stronger life.

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I new this years ago.
Posted by: popsicle67 on Feb 17, 2006 9:04 PM   
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My mom tried to turn me into a Jehova's Whitless for many years during childhood. I stuck it out until I could let chores back up enough to defeat takng the time to go. The most interesting part about all of it was talking to the elders from time to time about life and school and girls and such so I got hit with all the wait till your married talk. I could understand wanting to keep away from having babies too young because there was a lot of it happening around me at the time so I asked about contraception and was told that just because you
could stop a pregnancy from happening didn't mean that you
could do as you pleased. One elder then says that contraceptives are just another form of abortion if you think about it,so I ask about post marriage since sex was apparantly ok then and you didn't always want to have a kid when you had sex(i would think). Well I thought the roof would fall in with them all asking who are we to judge gods plan and such bullshit. Leave it up to god or at least what they
tell you god wishes. That is how they take over, breed like bunnies and brainwash the kids.

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quid pro quo
Posted by: qidproquo on Feb 18, 2006 8:21 AM   
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Msny many moons ago, when I was young, my mother used to say that a butterfly isn't a butterfly until it leaves the cocoon.Until then, it's a pupa. A devout Episcopalian she practiced contraception, and in those days, the ONLY people who didn't were Roman Catholics. who parcticed "Vatican Roulette".The idea of life at conception was their rationale. Protestants believed that life starts at birth. Somewhere in the last 50 years the religious right adopted the R.C point of view and promoted it. They have a right to believe what they want. They DO NOT have the right to force others .This is not quite a fascist country yet, although they are trying hard. As a nurse in a N.Y. emergency room, I saw what happened to women who were desperate enough to have have illegal abortions; they died. this is what the religious right is after, because sex is a sin, and they must pay. IF they believe in God, and sex is a sin, why did God chose to populate mankind in such a manner? couldn't God have devised a better way? After all, isn't God omnipotent? OR, is this whole mess something drummed up by the males of the world to subject women into their proper place, the kitchen and the bedroom? "barefoot and pregnant" nice going, guys. Afraid the we'll show you haw to run a better peaceful world?

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When abortion is illegal, woman have illegal abortions.
Posted by: morticia on Feb 18, 2006 10:35 AM   
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Women who are determined to end their pregnancies care little for parsing such niceties as "when life begins" and the "definition" of human life, and so forth. This is not how they make their decisions. When they want to end a pregnancy, they become possessed of a primal drive that grows out of their own highly personal and intimate circumstances. The favorite term of anti-choicers is that women abort because it's a matter of "convenience," a word that carries a definite semantic subtext: irresponsible, frivolous, selfish. "Convenience" may be the reason some women abort, but there are other reasons for other women: terror, desperation, exhaustion. Abortion does not go away when it's illegal. It goes underground, and women follow. They WILL put themselves in harm's way to end a pregnancy. This is simply a fact, whatever our opinion of it. They've proven this down through the centuries. Pro-choice recognizes this reality and takes a pragmatic approach. Anyone working to make abortion illegal again is, in effect, working to put the illegal abortionist back into business, send him his customers and employ him (or her, in plenty of cases) to dole out crude, dirty, barbaric savage punishment to those who break the law. Some anti-choicers are able to accommodate that, because the women are, after all, baby-murderers. Others assuage their consciences by resorting to historical revisionism, saying that all those horror stories you hear about coat hangers and bleeding to death and being met by strange men and riding blindfolded in the backs of cars are an exaggeration, mere propaganda. Those of us who were "there" know that the horrors of pre-Roe are no exaggeration, and we know that the real issue, the only issue, is the inevitable return of illegal abortion if Roe is overturned.

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» RE: Thank You Posted by: Super-Saiyan
American Taliban
Posted by: bahB on Feb 19, 2006 6:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They used it as a title for what they called an enemy. But that was only to deflect the truth. They are controlling and want you not to think so. I don't know who they are. It is NOT a conspirisy, its just that many psychologically wounded men, and their slavish women, are all staying on the same page. They don't want you to be free. They are afraid.

They aren't "Christian" as much as Old Testament fogeys who think ancient life didn't start untill their "fathers" took controll from the women.

It's already here, the Haindmaid's Tale, 1984, the media controll. Be free in your own mind, and don't believe what you read. (My views either.)

bahB

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Not so eye-opening revelations
Posted by: Kym525 on Feb 23, 2006 4:58 PM   
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Are any of us on the pro-choice side all that shocked at what author Christina Page has discovered about the so-called pro-life movement in this country? If anything, this book, and the fact that South Dakota wants to criminalize ALL abortions, regardless of the health of the mother or in cases of rape and incest - all these things should galvanize us into the fight of our lives.

What many pro-life supporters fail to realize, or completely ignore, is that the pro-choice movement ISN'T ABOUT ABORTION. It's about ensuring that a recognized medical procedure remain safe and legal and accessible. It's about comprehensive sex education that has been PROVEN to reduce the number of abortions. The pro-choice movement also supports issues like living wages, affordable housing, equal pay, education (including the Head Start program which has proven effective in combating the high rate of school dropouts), family leave, affordable medical care - the list goes on. The pro-choice movement supports and advocates adoption, especially adoption of children with special needs and children of colour. Pro-choicers believe in loving stable homes, and support single-parent and same-sex adoptions.

And yet we're categorized as being the 'immoral' ones? By the way, in case it's slipped any pro-lifers' radar, there are indeed liberal Christians - I'm one of them.

And on the subject of adoption: A friend of mine called a 'pregancy crisis center' and explained her situation. She mentioned to the counselor that the father of her child was black, and after what she said was about a five minute silence, was told point blank that there was no "market for biracial children" and that perhaps abortion would be the the BEST option. This, coming from a supposed religious agency.

Interestingly enough, I've actually heard the same thing being told to several other women I've talked with. I would LOVE for someone on the pro-life side to explain this.

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» RE: Not so eye-opening revelations Posted by: Super-Saiyan
Exposing the hypocritical 'pro-life' movement
Posted by: Kym525 on Feb 24, 2006 2:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it quite telling that many pro-lifers cease any concern for the welfare of the fetus after it's born - especially if the resultant child is from a despised minority group or born into poverty or even if the child is handicapped. These are the exact same people who believe in cutting spending for welfare programs, education (Head Start especially). They do not support family medical leave or even raising the minimum wage to make it possible for families to live. Many are against comprehensive sex education which has been PROVEN to decrease the rate of teenage births and STD's, unlike that ridiculous Silver Ring Thing program, which proved completely ineffective in stopping teens from having sex. In fact it was shown that many of those teens who've taken the 'virginity pledge' actually engage in far riskier sexual behaviours in contrast to those who didn't.

I also find it telling that many pro-lifers seem to be all gung-ho for this false war GW has got us firmly entrenched in, even though they realize that the entire war is based upon lie after lie. Perhaps these unwanted children serve a purpose as cannon fodder for the Bush war machine. One thing for sure, many of these so-called pro-lifers are all for locking away these grown-up fetuses when they've committed crimes and even condemning them to death.

Sweeping generalizations? Maybe.

Perhaps they're anti-women? Anti-sex? Just plain ignorant?

Of course, there will always be the few pro-lifers who claim not to be like their fellows, but it's becoming very hard to tell these days. It seems to me that very few of them stop and take the larger view as to why abortions happen and what can be done - feasibly - to reduce the need for them.

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I Just Bought this Book!
Posted by: Super-Saiyan on Feb 26, 2006 7:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I bought this book today and read the first chapter! So far, it's pretty good.

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