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Natural Food, Unnatural Prices
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I found a parking spot between an Outback and a Prius. In moments, we had left the land of steel and asphalt behind and stepped into a world of biological wonders. The robust-looking bread, in all the right shades of toasty brown, was clearly far more than an inert sandwich-support medium; even the few lonely white-bread specimens looked good. The fruits and vegetables actually looked and smelled like fruits and vegetables. The bulk bins formed a solid base for the best of food pyramids. In the deli and packaged-food sections, it was an invigorating experience simply to read the labels.
The work day was just starting, and the employees, most of them anyway, were genuinely friendly and seemingly delighted with their lot in life -- to be young, healthy and working at Whole Foods. These "team members," as they're known in company lingo, have signed on with a major-league powerhouse. With 180 stores in the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom, annual sales of $4.6 billion and profits of $160 million, Whole Foods recently moved into the Fortune 500.
But then we started looking around for something to buy. As we stared bug-eyed at the lofty price tags, I wondered aloud what sort of income it would take to become a regular Whole Foods shopper. Priti had an idea: Why not give Whole Foods the Wal-Mart test?
Return of the cashier-shopper
Priti was referring to a June 2003 AlterNet article in which I asked this seemingly simple question: In view of Wal-Mart's vast range of merchandise and "Always Low Prices," could a family whose breadwinner worked at the Wal-Mart Supercenter in Salina, Kan., afford to supply its minimum needs by shopping there?
I'd relied on published studies that computed the cost of an "adequate but austere" life for a family with one adult and two children in Salina. The budget included only the basics: shelter, transportation, food, routine toiletries and medicines, and not much more. Housing and transportation can't be bought at Wal-Mart (yet), but almost all other necessities can be.
The bottom line: Our Wal-Mart cashier could not satisfy such a bare-survival budget even if she worked 40 hours per week, more hours than a typical Wal-Mart workweek. And as you might expect, in trying to keep the family within such a budget, I condemned them to an array of foods that were boring, unappealing, and not very nutritious -- and produced in ways that most customers would prefer not to know about.
But is that inevitable? Or is the nation's corporate food system capable of supplying people at all income levels with products of the quality we saw at Whole Foods?
Salina to San Antonio
I took Priti up on her suggestion, moving the hypothetical family from Salina to San Antonio, and having my cashier work and buy groceries at Whole Foods. I used the same list of foods -- a minimal, USDA-recommended "low-cost food plan" -- that I'd used at the Salina Wal-Mart.
Back at Whole Foods, we followed the same simulated-shopping rules, selecting the cheapest food in each food category and the cheapest brand of that type. Using those prices, I computed the monthly cost of feeding an adult female, a 12-year-old boy and a 4-year-old child.
At Salina's Wal-Mart, the bill had been $232, plus sales tax. At Whole Foods, the same basket of food cost $564. Texas has no sales tax on food, and Whole Foods employees get a 20 percent discount, bringing the cost for the San Antonio cashier all the way down to $451. That monthly price tag includes only the cheapest foods in each category, and none of the store's popular luxury items.
The starting wage for a cashier at Salina's Wal-Mart in 2003 was $6.25, which fell $146 per month short of meeting her family's survival budget. Whole Foods employees in three states told me that a starting cashier's wages tend to be between $7 and $8, but according to Whole Foods spokesperson Ashley Hawkins, a poll of all company regions showed a starting wage of $8 to $10.
Let's assume that the cost of nonfood necessities in present-day San Antonio is similar to Salina circa 2003 (although it's undoubtedly higher, and the San Antonio cashier might not have access to the full day-care subsidy that low-income Kansas workers get). A $10-per-hour employee determined to shop at Whole Foods could manage to do so. An $8-per-hour employee could meet the bare-survival food budget, but with nothing left over. At $7, she would miss the mark by more than the Wal-Mart cashier-shopper. The situation would be worse in a state like Kansas that taxes food sales.
Hawkins says Whole Foods' full-time turnover rate is 24.7 percent, so the above wages would apply to approximately one-fourth of employees. She says the companywide average wage is $15, and that health care, 401(k), stock option and stock purchase plans (after about 10-12 months' employment) have helped earn Whole Foods a place on Fortune magazine's list of the "100 best companies to work for" for the past nine years.
Blinded by uniqueness
But not all employees agree with Fortune's assessment. Jeremy Plague was among the Madison, Wis., Whole Foods employees who managed to form a union (the only one in the company's history) for a period between 2002 and 2004, eventually succumbing to Whole Foods' fierce anti-union policies.
Says Plague, "In my experience, most people really liked working at Whole Foods for the first few months, blinded by the uniqueness of the store and by their hippie rhetoric of how we all mattered. But then people hit the six-month wall where they realize that it's all a bunch of BS, and Whole Foods is just like every other money-hungry corporation … It's all a great, worker- and environment-friendly system until you get to the actual people working in the stores, stocking the shelves and ringing you up at the register."
A website created by the Madison organizing effort, wholeworkersunite.org, remains active as a gathering place for current and former Whole Foods employees critical of company policies.
Critics of my cashier-shopper analysis argue that jobs with retailers like Whole Foods or Wal-Mart aren't meant to support families. But to the extent that that's true, neither employer can be viewed as a model for the economy at large. And given the wage and price policies of the two companies, one thing is clear: Customers who frequent Whole Foods are unlikely to be Wal-Mart cashiers or other low-income earners.
Whole Foods CEO John Mackey is frank about that. He recently told The Independent (UK), "You can't have it both ways. If you want the highest quality, it costs more. It's like complaining that a BMW is more expensive than a Hyundai. Yes, but you're getting a better car."
And few Whole Foods Markets are situated in economy-car country. Of the 170 stores in the U.S., none are located in zip codes with average 2003 household incomes at or below $31,000 -- the approximate income earned by a full-time employee earning the average Whole Foods wage.
Only nine of the 170 stores are in zip codes with incomes of $43,300 or lower. That was the median income in the United States that year (that is, half of U.S. households had incomes lower, and half of them higher, than $43,300).
Half of the zip codes with Whole Foods stores lie above $72,000 in average income. A fourth of them exceed $100,000.
Mackey's defense of high prices is mirrored in Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott's defense of his company's low wages, which he summed up in an address to employees last October: "I ask anyone to do the math. Even slight overall adjustments to wages eliminate our thin profit margin." And, said Scott, price increases are out of the question because even as it is, "our customers simply don't have the money to buy necessities between paychecks."
Is it possible for a corporation that sells everyday, necessary products like food to do three things at once: (1) pay a living wage, (2) charge prices that most people can afford and (3) provide an acceptable return to its shareholders?
Clearly, Wal-Mart gives top priority to shareholders. Then come customers and, bringing up the rear, workers. As expected, its degrees of success follow in that same order, with workers sacrificed to satisfy the first two priorities. But what would happen to its wages and prices if Wal-Mart, notorious for putting the price squeeze on its suppliers, were to commit itself to marketing only sustainably produced, high-quality goods?
And, returning to Whole Foods, the same question can be put another way: Does it manage to make the list of "best companies to work for" only because of the premium prices paid by its customers? How would Whole Foods' merchandise quality, pay and benefits look if it tried to match Wal-Mart's customer base, maybe not in size but in socioeconomic diversity?
Whole-food, nonmarket solutions
Many academics and grassroots activists in the sustainable-agriculture movement are asking those kinds of questions, doing some hard thinking about how society can pay farmers (preferably noncorporate farmers) adequately to raise nutritious food in less ecologically destructive ways while keeping the end products affordable for all.
Clearly, our hypothetical cashiers, wherever they work, would benefit from having their own vegetable garden. But unless, against all odds, they also managed to raise a lot of staple foods on their own -- wheat, dry beans, maybe some chickens or dairy animals -- or had plenty of time for fishing, they would still be largely reliant on purchased food of some kind.
Like many in her profession, Rhonda Janke, associate professor of horticulture and a sustainable cropping systems specialist at Kansas State University, is a big advocate of locally produced food, farmers' markets and community supported agriculture, or CSA. (In a typical CSA arrangement, consumers contract with a farmer in their area to deliver a certain quantity of food on an agreed schedule during the growing season. The kinds of foods delivered depends on what's in season.)
As for making good, locally produced food affordable, Janke notes that "many CSAs have provisions for 'work shares' and reduced cost shares for low-income families, and that can be part of a 'local safety net'. But that doesn't eliminate the need for the grower to get full price from a minimum number of full-paying customers."
Janke asks, "What do you consider a living wage for a farmer, and does that make the price of food go up? If all farmers got $10 per hour, not counting [federal subsidies], what would food cost? Would the price at Wal-Mart go up? Whole Foods?"
She believes that leaving it up to the big retailers would put food out of reach for a lot of people: "I think the only conclusion one can logically come to is that market forces alone are not going to provide enough healthy food to everyone in our society."
In that spirit, a growing number of pioneering nonprofit organizations are working to put good food within economic reach of their local communities. One of them is People's Grocery in Oakland, Calif. The nonprofit, community-based organization sells fresh produce and staples through its store and Mobile Market -- a "grocery store on wheels" that travels through West Oakland making regular stops. The organization also has extensive educational programs and has helped establish a growing network of community gardens that currently provide 25 percent of the produce it sells.
I asked co-founder Brahm Ahmadi what makes it possible for People's Grocery to sell good, natural food that low-income families can afford, while Whole Foods can't. He said the fundamental difference is that "they're pursuing profit and we aren't."
Ahmadi says good food doesn't have to be expensive. "Because of its huge size, Whole Foods receives a deeper discount from its suppliers than any other natural-food retailer. Yet the prices in its stores are among the most expensive. They are purely profit-driven, so they do not allow that cost benefit to go to the customer."
Once, says Ahmadi, a Whole Foods executive told him, "We could not market food the way you do, because our shareholders simply wouldn't allow it."
People's Grocery subsidizes its efforts through charitable funding, with the understanding that the donated money will go to hold prices down. But as the low-income market strengthens, says Ahmadi, People's Grocery will try to reduce its dependency on contributions by marketing food that it obtains directly from producers, cutting out as many steps of the expensive supply chain as possible.
The growth of the natural-food industry may have been phenomenal in recent years, but Ahmadi predicts that its relatively affluent target market cannot avoid saturation: "Companies will have to project what new markets they can turn to. And there's substantial growth potential among low-income shoppers. They account for almost half of food retail in the U.S. -- that's $85 billion."
Indirectly echoing Rhonda Janke's conclusion that "market forces alone are not enough," Ahmadi says, "We need to build demand that can thrive and grow on its own," but in low-income areas "it has to be done differently. It requires a grassroots approach with community organizations that have track records."
And community organizations working in not-so-posh urban zip codes from coast to coast are establishing just such track records. They include, among others, Garden-Raised Bounty in Olympia, Wash., Growing Power in Milwaukee and Added Value in Brooklyn, N.Y.
But a more thoroughgoing overhaul of the nation's food systems may be needed to reach the majority of city dwellers, as well as vast, less densely populated rural regions between the coasts. Of the 500 poorest counties in the United States, more than 450 are rural. Ironically, it is in highly productive, ecologically threatened agricultural regions that sustainably produced, nutritious food is least widely available.
To organizations like People's Grocery, it's unacceptable that such food is accessible to some families and not to others simply on the basis of where they live or how much they earn. As Brahm Ahmadi puts it, "We're not talking about a luxury item here. Good food is a basic need."
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Posted by: adp3d on Jan 25, 2006 3:00 AM
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Now, it seems to me that if your employees can become your customers and ultimately your stockholders(take care to diversify, lesson learned from Enron), then you have a strong, well run company and Fortune will be turning its spotlight on you. As I mentioned before, I'm not all that educated, I do not have a MBA, so what am I missing with this model?
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» RE: The bottom line is...
Posted by: Lizka
» RE: The bottom line is...
Posted by: magistre
» RE: The bottom line is...
Posted by: weronika
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Posted by: churchofone on Jan 25, 2006 3:04 AM
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» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: bwbrenton
» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: badkitty53
» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: truly scrumptious
» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: felipe
» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: Bimbeot
» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: danjkelly2
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Posted by: O.B.Server on Jan 25, 2006 3:30 AM
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» RE: And what about others?
Posted by: drone
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Posted by: anothername on Jan 25, 2006 3:48 AM
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I have shopped at Whole Foods in several cities and have found it to be higher and lower priced than other stores in the same localities, as well as having some items that I could not find elsewhere. The problem is that organic (or any) food is overpriced for many people and that food locally grown is not always cheaper than subsidized California produce. (Take a look at how much water California demands from other states to grow its fruits and vegetables and you will see agriculture that is not sustainable.)
Where I live now I can find organic produce, both fresh and frozen, as well as toiletries that are free of animal products. However, they are sold in small local health food stores or local grocery stores and have a hefty price tag. Moreover, they are not in my neighborhood nor are they near where I work. That means a round trip on the bus and about an extra two hours to make that round trip. Where I lived before this, it was very difficult to find organic food and the price was even more outlandish than where I am now. I found the Whole Foods store that opened in that community to be cheaper than other grocery store chains.
I find that the people who compare Whole Foods prices to their other grocery stores often are trying to compare apples to oranges (pun intended). Might as well put Bread & Circus in Massachusetts, Zabars in New York City, and other upper-scale grocery stores to the Wal-Mart test. They would not pass, either. This is nothing new. Decades ago, a local grocery chain where I was raised carried more expensive products at its stores that were near suburbs than what the same chain carried in its stores located in lower-income neighborhoods.
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» RE: Why not study Wal-Mart workers at Starbucks?
Posted by: crusty
» RE: Why not study Wal-Mart workers at Starbucks?
Posted by: anothername
» RE: Why not study Wal-Mart workers at Starbucks?
Posted by: crusty
» RE: Why not study Wal-Mart workers at Starbucks?
Posted by: nedwylie
» Bread and Circus is now Whole Foods
Posted by: truly scrumptious
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Posted by: dglasner on Jan 25, 2006 4:16 AM
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When it pays to buy organic
OR:
When it pays to buy organic
(don't forget to read the side articles that you can select on the top left)
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» RE: From Consumer Reports: When it pays to buy organic
Posted by: TariffDude
» RE: From Consumer Reports: When it pays to buy organic
Posted by: danjkelly2
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Posted by: candara on Jan 25, 2006 4:24 AM
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» RE: Agree 100%
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» Not only that but what you spend, you save on medical bills and drugs!
Posted by: Pepper
» Oh, and something else I forgot to tell you..........
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Oh, and something else I forgot to tell you..........
Posted by: danjkelly2
» RE: Oh, and something else I forgot to tell you..........
Posted by: candara
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: tussinup
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: mati
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: apapmtz
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: Face Down in the Dirt
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: crusty
» True cost-true worth
Posted by: nedwylie
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Posted by: tscox on Jan 25, 2006 4:35 AM
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Stan Cox
From Joel Kovel:
"The aura of virtue that surrounds 'health-positive' and seemingly cooperative
ventures like Whole Foods tends to block out awareness of just how powerful
an effect is exerted by the macro-economy as it bears down upon firms and
subjects them to the great force-field of capital--subjects them, it should
be added, in proportion to how successful and large-scale they become.
I just bought an inexpensive keyboard from a local music store. The guy who
ran it is a musician, and, whether because he took a shine to me, or whether
he just didn't care that much about being a capitalist, he spontaneously
lowered the price and spent a lot of time going over the instrument with me.
He did something that no store manager at a place like Whole Foods can do
because the latter is just a cog in the machine, and because the firm has to
meet prevailing rates of profit, which means he can't muck around with the
price just because he feels a certain way that day and he can't afford to
not exploit labor, ignore "productivity" and the like. The Whole Foods guy
has got to deal with the prevailing rate of exploitation, which is the value
of labor power, an abstraction imposed by capital itself that forces him to
treat persons as things inorder not to fall behind in the great rat race."
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» RE: More about profit
Posted by: drone
» Uh... bad example.
Posted by: Kneel
» RE: More about profit
Posted by: jumperladd
» RE: More about profit
Posted by: elizacoop
» RE: More about profit
Posted by: Lizka
» Yes and more of them are cropping up along with employee owned ...
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Yes and more of them are cropping up along with employee owned ...
Posted by: danjkelly2
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Posted by: baad on Jan 25, 2006 4:41 AM
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» RE: Chinese Proverb
Posted by: mistawiz
» Oh, you mean the PBS controlled by the CPB run by Bush apptees?
Posted by: Pepper
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Posted by: Lizmv on Jan 25, 2006 5:20 AM
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» RE: Support local Food and Farm programs
Posted by: crusty
» RE: Support local Food and Farm programs
Posted by: NDnative
» Except now there is a law that will kick in 2009...........
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: xcept now there is a law that will kick in 2009...........
Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: xcept now there is a law that will kick in 2009...........
Posted by: crusty
» RE: xcept now there is a law that will kick in 2009...........
Posted by: crusty
» This law is NOT a done deal...yet
Posted by: ideasinca
» RE: Support local Food and Farm programs
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: fifi on Jan 25, 2006 5:21 AM
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multi-millionaire, greedy and doesn't give a damn about the environment or his workers. I advise folks to join a natural foods co-op if they want organic food at great prices. Co-ops give a 10%membership discount - my co-op in Sacramento gives a 10% discount to disabled, seniors and very low income shoppers. My co-op in Sacramento buys DIRECT from organic farmers, eliminates the middleman broker - and sells organic produce CHEAPER than the supermarket. Whole Foods is the absolute worst example of a natural food store. Even Trader Joe's is a better place to shop than whole foods.
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» RE: Brilliant Minds
Posted by: jefhadist
» RE: Join a Food Co-op
Posted by: TheJamea
» RE: Join a Food Co-op - Mine Pays $9.50 Hour Starting Wage
Posted by: skycave
» RE: Join a Food Co-op - Mine Pays $9.50 Hour Starting Wage
Posted by: crusty
» RE: $15 salads
Posted by: crusty
» RE: $15 salads
Posted by: badkitty53
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Posted by: jefhadist on Jan 25, 2006 5:44 AM
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Posted by: kingfelix on Jan 25, 2006 7:04 AM
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there are endless cashiers, salespeople, etc who work in upscale businesses and cannot afford to consume what they sell.
the morgan spurlock-style hands-on research is all very noble, but i could've told you in 5 seconds (as most people could) that the lowest-paid cashier at a Whole Foods can't afford to do all their grocery shopping there.
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Posted by: Kneel on Jan 25, 2006 7:10 AM
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But then, we have to ask why they're so anti-union. Hmmmmm. Must be outside agitators! They're always coming around to stir up trouble among the happy and contented workers!
I do like the impossibly expensive food they carry, but lot of what Whole Foods does is flatter self-indulgent narcissists. (Like the Body Shop, where you can buy petroleum-based lip balm the lets you feel good about the rain forests.)
Whole Foods also profits off your desire to buy responsibly, as with the deceptive Fair Trade coffee bit (and the arms-industry linked venture capitalists backing and profiting off the whole thing).
As for the farmers, they're not getting the extra money you're paying for organic apples. They're getting squeezed by Whole Foods (not the apples, the farmers) so whole foods can pocket the difference, which is what they're all about.
I buy my veggies at a market in a parking lot. You have these things all over Europe, in cities great and small. I don't understand why there aren't more of them, why cities give some kind of break to a big whole foods but don't make available an area for markets that would be far more pleasant and benefit everyone.
Well, except the profiteering middlemen like Whole Foods. There wouldn't be much room for them.
As for these lists of wonderful companies to work for, I have no idea how they're selected. I had a long temp agency assignment at one - there was no childcare (nor much maternity leave) and weak benefits. As you went up the ladder, the company was overwhelmingly male, almost entirely the fair-skinned sort.
But it was an investment company during a boom period, so it made the list - a great company to work as long as you were greedy, male and didn't care about much of anything beyond your next bonus. Beyond that, I can't see what made it so great.
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» RE: Non-Sequitur
Posted by: truly scrumptious
» Yeah, I worry about ragging on some company that is doing right....
Posted by: Pepper
» OK, so then why are they so keen to fight unions?
Posted by: Kneel
» RE: Ask the Arcata Co-Op about how great unions can be...
Posted by: bassman
» RE: Ask the Arcata Co-Op about how great unions can be...
Posted by: Kneel
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Posted by: kiatoa on Jan 25, 2006 7:20 AM
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» A different (not new) tax proposal.
Posted by: TheJamea
» RE: A different (not new) tax proposal.
Posted by: kiatoa
» RE: A different (not new) tax proposal.
Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: A different (not new) tax proposal.
Posted by: TheJamea
» RE: A different (not new) tax proposal.
Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: A simple solution is available. Change the tax system.
Posted by: LuisNolan
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Posted by: saywhat? on Jan 25, 2006 7:30 AM
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i know of one friend who worked there for over 12 years, became employee of the year, and was paraded for the accomplishment, then the following year was fired by his store manager for lending out his discount card...they had narcs in the stores watching the employees and i suspect , the customers....
not having a mar on his record until this time this man was stripped of all his employee paid stock options, and started with another employer with no health benefits and a starting wage of 8$/hour...the man is 53....
he tried to get his case looked at but the human resources dept and john mackey looked the other way...
the store manager who fired him has been on notice for treating segments of his staff poorly...one instance was where the latino staff filed a complaint...
whole foods also was the only grocery store in chicago who wouldn't stand behind a statement the UFW wanted. the UFW statement said that it didn't support sub standard working conditions on the part of the driscoll workers.
they also drove a number of independent health food stores out of business.
i support organic (know that the standards are slipping), so i buy at farmers markets and coops when i can, and independent fruit and vege markets where my greens are usually 1$ less per bunch than WF...
maybe the author can write another expose about costco....i don't know much about them, but they seem to have a happy staff
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» RE: groovy goods
Posted by: Bimbeot
» RE: groovy goods
Posted by: saywhat?
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Posted by: brad on Jan 25, 2006 8:03 AM
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» RE: x organic farmer
Posted by: rothermelgirl
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Posted by: counterpoint on Jan 25, 2006 8:08 AM
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I suspect part of the high prices are the vast assortment of perishable items they carry, much of which I've never watched being placed into anyone's shopping cart. Obviously we are paying for all the exotic stuff they have to dump, too.
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Posted by: hartsmart on Jan 25, 2006 8:18 AM
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Learn to cook! Learn portion control, forgel about organics, go orgasmic for healthy fun exercise!
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Posted by: LizFun on Jan 25, 2006 9:16 AM
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Posted by: levinson.eric on Jan 25, 2006 9:19 AM
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» RE: Subsidies in the wrong places
Posted by: crusty
» RE: Subsidies in the wrong places
Posted by: gladwyn
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Posted by: JohnnyM on Jan 25, 2006 10:02 AM
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You did, however, hit on the real problem. Wal-Mart looks after the investors first, the customers next, and then its employees. It's a circular system. It's a three-way chicken-and-the-egg thing (current wisdom says take care of the investors first - it's where the real money is made so you can't blame the CEO's).
The problem is with wall Street: You have "analysts" who say you should make "this" much money, and even if you are profitable if you don't meet your numbers your investors are displeased, they sell your stock and potentially you're in a downward spiral. If you stay private, you only need to take care of your employees and your customers; no third-party (depending on who invested in the company). The only people who make a killing in the stock market anyways are people who have money to burn in the first place, so it's a system that widens the gap between rich & poor. Therefore, the problem is systemic, and the only way to stop the greed, the corruption, and all the other problems, is to shut-down wall-street.
Since this will likely never happen, the spiral we're on will lead to a wider gap and eventual economic collapse. If I work at Wal-Mart but can't afford to shop there, who is going to shop there? If I work at Ford but can't afford their cars (or can't afford the constant maintenance they require :)), who is going to buy them? A smaller-and-smaller group...Of course, there's always the ability to sell overseas, curently China seems hot, until their economic system mirrors ours and we run out of countries...
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Posted by: cold2touch on Jan 25, 2006 10:09 AM
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Posted by: NDnative on Jan 25, 2006 10:14 AM
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Posted by: bettsoff on Jan 25, 2006 10:14 AM
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» RE: *throws up hands*
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: zinnia on Jan 25, 2006 10:17 AM
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But, I do wonder about the statement at the end, about how most of the poorest counties in the US are rural, and the irony of the people living there being least likely to afford healthy food. Isn't this just based on income, though, and not taking into account that lots of rural people grow their own stuff, which wouldn't necessarily be "officially" accounted for? For example, my folks live in NW Minnesota, right smack in the middle of the Red River Valley, one of the most fertile places in the US and a big agricultural region. They always grow a huge veggie garden, and can and freeze stuff, and with friends and co-workers they share produce, sometimes trading for stuff they don't grow. So, their eating habits are not necessarily reflected in their lower-middle class income. Also, rural people might be more likely to get food from places that city people would be less likely to, like Hutterite colonies or similar groups that raise animals and will butcher them to order, so you can stock up your freezer. My parents do this, and their food costs aren't that bad - certainly not nearly as bad as the cost of the gas they use to get around their rural landscape.
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Posted by: mom'z the word on Jan 25, 2006 10:26 AM
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Jan 25, 2006 10:40 AM
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Yes their food is more expensive to buy but I wonder how long this trend of consumerism can benefit the country. A 12-ounce box of Honey Nut Cheerios at WF cost nealy $5 while at Vons it's about $3.50. Someone's getting skewered here.
What makes this scandulous is cereals, salads, soups, well, nearly everything IS higher at WF (same with Trader Joe's) than at a supermarket.
Another problem with WF is they will not allow any unionization. Work there at your own risk. Employees work w/o benefits. Most WF workers are under the age of 40, most of them college-age.
I know we all have choices where we spend our money, but why does the cost of eating has to be so high?
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Posted by: pianojo on Jan 25, 2006 10:57 AM
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As former owner, for 8 years, of a mom-and-pop natural food store, I can tell you that comparing Whole Foods to Walmart is utter NONSENSE. You cannot do such a thing honestly.
The natural foods industry is being corrupted by the sale of once fine companies to multi-nationals that then turn around and destroy the products they buy. Products that once had no sugar now have sugar. Products that once had no white flour now have white flour. etc. etc. There is a movement to even destroy the meaning of ORGANIC, i.e. to allow those companies that produce organic products to add chemicals and other crap and still call their products ORGANIC while continuing to charge high prices. Should this come to pass ORGANIC will be meaningless. The industry is being destroyed from the inside. And no one is saying or doing anything to stop the slide into disaster.
That said, even with this ongoing destruction, the products found in Whole Foods are still (as of today) hands-down nutritionally superior to anything found in Walmart or supermarkets. And it takes money and time to grow and produce organic and nutritionally superior foods. Period. Given also that these products are produced in smaller quantities than the food found in Walmart and supermarkets, prices will usually be higher, unfortunately. So, trying to compare the two types of stores is an exercise in futility.
However, if no one does anything to stop the destruction of the health food industry, once health food stores are on a par - nutritionally - with Walmart and supermarkets, then why bother to shop there? When that day comes, I for one will stop shopping in Whole Foods.
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» RE: idiotic article
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» Right...up to a point
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: handyrae on Jan 25, 2006 11:23 AM
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I remember reading quite a while ago that Wal-Mart sells produce that is grades below the top grade available. I don't know if that's true, but I've never been happy with the produce at Wal-Mart because it rarely seems to be of good quality. So yes the stuff might be cheap, but you get what you pay for.
And don't get me started on the meat at Wal-Mart. There isn't any of it that isn't overprocessed and injected with some vile "flavor" solution that leaves its taste and texture horribley unnatural. I call it Solient Green, because that's what it reminds me of. So yes, the price is low, but they'd have to PAY ME to eat it.
It's about trade-offs in life. I don't make a lot of money, but I can spend extra at WF which makes me happy (and healtier) because I don't own all the latest tech devices and have no problem driving a used Toyoto Echo which cost $10,000 and gets 45 MPH.
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Posted by: mont on Jan 25, 2006 12:01 PM
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I also shop at Trader Joes and feel their quality is excellent while their pricing is substantialy less. I have a garden and chickens which helps a lot. I am quite old now and remember quite well the victory gardens we all had, even in the cities, during the second world war. I expect a faltering economy may help the return to saner ways.
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Posted by: mmeetoilenoir on Jan 25, 2006 12:11 PM
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As far as employee hapiness is concerned, there is no company that I've seen (and I've worked for several) that has perfectly blissful employees making a perfect living wage.
The unionzation problem? I see that most of the people working at the supermarkets in my area are teens; I'm wondering if we're just not teaching them the value of unionization young enough, before they reach thier working years.
Prices? Sorry, folks. I do BETTER on some items at WF. 100% pure juice? Cheaper than the normal market. Soda? Natural soda, cheap as dirt. Bottled water? The big liter and a halfs are under a dollar. Tomato sauce and pasta? Delicious, and cheaper as well. Some things are ridiculously pricey, but I stay away from them. I'm very fortunate to also have a big-name store near us that stocks a nice array of natural and organic products, including thier own line, so I can actually comparison shop some items.
I don't even know anyone who does all thier shopping at WF, or Trader Joe's. They always supplement it with the normal stores, so by the time all is said and done, expenditures end up being pretty even.
I guess what I'm saying is that everything has its flaws. I would rather cut of my right boob than shop at Wal-Bitch, but I will also not spend $10 and an hour or more to get to a co-op (I don't have a car, and I'm not near one) just so I can evade Whole Foods.
Another point...no, some of thier employees can't shop there. It happens. I worked for Oilily for a while, and wow! Yeah, couldn't buy much. Their sweaters routinely cost $200 or more. Even with my 50% off, it was outta control and outta reach. Oh well.
I know I'm rambling, but I feel that there are people who take our great strength and power as progressives and squander it on silly premises like this author did. These are words that could have been used more constructively. We can't keep whacking away at EVERY. LITTLE. THING in this world that isn't bright, perfect, and sunny. Hell, when I was in grade school, we would never have imagined that there would be a place to buy organic food in so many varieties. Be happy that we have it, and let's try to push for other new and worthy things.
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Posted by: Lizka on Jan 25, 2006 12:38 PM
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I don't know how that would affect the company's profits: but I think that the products would have to be priced a little higher in order to still make it viable.
Which would, yes, price Wal-Mart workers and others on a low income out of shopping there on a regular basis. But I bellieve that Wal-Mart should pay its workers better wages in the first place: and that all workplaces should be unionized. And that if at least one "posh environmentally-friendly" store chain would pay higher wages in recognition of this, this would put pressure on other retail outlets to follow. And then Wal-mart would be left at the bottom looking like the rat it is. Anyway, I got an e-mail in my mailbox the other day, from this health site I subscribe to: apparently, Wal-Mart's Chilean farmed salmon is, although cheap, bad for you: it's not at all suitable for someone on an "anti-inflammatory" diet, because it's full of antibiotics. And it wreaks hell with the Chilean environment too. Produces a lot of waste matter.
I don't think that the American workplace will improve unless more people are prepared to make more radical decisions. And I think that asking if a Wal-Mart worker could afford to shop at this organic place is the wrong way of framing the question anyway.
Of course a worker should be able to afford to buy, partake in, the product which he or she makes or sells. That should be a moral absolute, particularly in a democracy. Go to the IWW site and read their old tales of the silk-weaving industry, as your example. More people should behave like workers did then, and then amerika wouldn't be in such a pickle.
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Posted by: Bimbeot on Jan 25, 2006 12:47 PM
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lINDEPENDENT AMERICA
On a related note I also read an excellent article from the NYTimes about a small grocery chain (New Seasons) in Portland, Oregon that believes in the whole food culture that goes beyond the co-opted word "Organic" and goes into local and sustainable. Apparently it works because Oregon is one of the states where the amount of farms is increasing and Conservatives and Progressives are both benefitting.
New Seasons Markets
Eating Well
In Oregon, Thinking Local
By MARIAN BURROS
Published: January 4, 2006
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Posted by: boygranddakar on Jan 25, 2006 1:51 PM
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I feel trapped by the lack of alternatives. WF isn't going to change its business model simply because some shoppers don't like their anti-union policies or their bald profiteering - you would need a boycott, but that requires having other souces of good food and there just aren't enough. We don't all live in Oakland, Portland, or Brooklyn.
Instead of excoriating WF, we should push for organic food in conventional markets (which already have unions), and not just in upscale neighborhoods. Fresh produce and canned goods are not that expensive (relative to prepared and processed foods like bread and cereal). There's no reason that every market can't have some organic offerings. People make choices about food shopping mostly on the basis of convenience. We should try to ensure there's a little organic (and local, and sustainable) everywhere.
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Posted by: alterhead on Jan 25, 2006 2:25 PM
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» RE: WF IS the WM of the Natural foods Industry
Posted by: pianojo
» RE: WF IS the WM of the Natural foods Industry
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: gliddonc on Jan 25, 2006 3:01 PM
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The executive from Whole Foods made the basic argument, "you get what you pay for," which is true for the most part. If I buy a more expensive car, I'm likely to get better engineering, more features and reliability and warranty support, etc., than if I buy a less expensive one.
I'm certainly a liberal, social and otherwise, but the notion that all corporations must take care of their employees seems to put power in the hands of those you most disdain.
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» RE: Cliff
Posted by: crusty
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Posted by: wordsintotype on Jan 25, 2006 3:36 PM
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Here is what I know:
1. I made $18 an hour at my job. My health care premium was free. In addition, I was given $1,200 a year to spend on out-of-pocket medical expenses. After a certain number of service hours, employees receive stock options. I received a regional "All Star" award and was given a pay bonus and stock options. Every department also received monthly labor surpluses. These amounted to several hundred extra dollars a month. These are benefits that every employee, cashiers included, receive. I received a 20% discount, which I could use on anything, including sale items. My point is that the benefits are better than people assume. Most of the employees, including myself, did not want to unionize, because our pay and benefits would be worse than what we already had.
2. Most people don't know what makes Whole Foods different from ANY other grocery store. Whole Foods has very strict quality standards. It's not about what's IN the food (yes, there is white flour, but it is neither bleached nor bromated); it's about what's NOT in it. Whole Foods does not sell any products that contain artificial sweeteners, flavorings, colorings, preservatives, or hydrogenated oils. Meat is from animals that have been raised without synthetic growth hormones or antibiotics, etc. Unfortunately, this kind of food is currently more expensive than conventional, chemical-laden food.
3. Yes, Whole Foods has a goal of being a financially healthy, profitable company. Financially healthy, profitable companies wield a lot of power. It's how that power is used that's important. Whole Foods just announced that it will be purchasing 100% of its energy in the form of wind power. Companies like Whole Foods do not wait for the government to mandate the purchase of alternative energy. They take the lead and change the landscape of business as well as contribute to the health of the planet.
Whole Foods is not a perfect company. Not every employee is happy. But Whole Foods is revolutionizing the grocery industry, animal husbandry, and the way business is being done in this country. Mackey is a visionary. We need to spend less time bandying about misinformation and more time listening to his revolutionary ideas about business in America.
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» RE: A view from the inside
Posted by: tomo
» RE: A view from the inside
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: A view from the inside
Posted by: candara
» RE: A view from the inside
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: tomo on Jan 25, 2006 3:40 PM
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Posted by: saretto on Jan 25, 2006 3:44 PM
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At any rate, these people, about 6-10 familes, got together and had a community garden. They worked out shifts and labor and how to divide up the food. It took less time and everybody lucked out b/c they didn't have to pay those prices their re-occuring investment were the seeds, the water, the soil nutirents and the labor. In urban areas the same can be accomplished on the roofs of buildings even indoors.
The food is organic and you have enough for everyone.
Imagine...
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» RE: No room for it but what the heck
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: anniedine on Jan 25, 2006 4:22 PM
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Mackey is a no-holds-barred libertarian capitalist. Mix that with the burgeoning healthy foods, alternative health, and organic movements, and you get exploding company growth. Same for Wild Oats. Now we have Sunflower, Trader Joes, and all the rest (many of which have now been sucked up by WF or WO) capitalizing on a trend. No mystery here.
The beauty of this is that the whole "industry" represented by these money-bloated behemoths is growing and developing. Your local non-alternative grocery store now has an aisle just for earthy-crunchy-healthy foods. Know what that means? Joe and Jane Sixpack see these foods in their "normal" shopping haunts and begin taking it all much more seriously. Pretty soon, 'ol lactose-intolerant Joe is swigging Silk and talking about how organic tomatoes taste like the ones his grandmother used to grow when he was little.
It's sad that Coca-Cola now owns some of the once-pure companies that made healthy foods (and changed the ingredients accordingly), but pretty soon the consumers exposed to better food will be more willing to check out places like Vitamin Cottage (Colorado/New Mexico) to see what other goodies they can get. They go there because it's small, quaint, and they've heard the prices are a whole lot better than those pricey designer places. And what they find is 100% organic produce and a whole lot of products that don't have refined sugars or other similar poison.
Know how I know this? Because Austin (WF's homebase) also has a highly successful food coop, a number of mom-and-pop natural food/vitamin stores, AND a main stream market with thousands of healthy alternative products on their shelves. Happily, with consumers seeing their options, it's only going to get better for producers and grocers in this marketplace.
Then there will be more competition for consumers. Then prices will come down to a reasonable level. And ideally, farmer and worker unions will work on getting a piece of this burgeoning economic pie.
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Posted by: smuney on Jan 25, 2006 6:25 PM
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» RE: Others besides Trader Joe's
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: Resist&Multiply on Jan 25, 2006 6:46 PM
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Whole Food is expensive, no doubt. I shop there now and I know first hand. But the impact they’ve had on mainstream grocery chains cannot be underestimated. Now when you walk into a Safeway, Albertson’s, etc, you’ll find an organic section. Five years ago that wasn’t a reality. Organic food is expensive to produce and expensive to ship, so the cost, like any other product, is passed on to the consumer. Still, when you shop organic, you are voting with your dollar. It’s the same thing as buying a hybrid car. You’re changing the market for the better. The money you spend now is an investment in your health and the future of the environment. Don’t bash Whole Foods for using the system to change the system.
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» RE: I worked for whole foods. I shop there still.
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: nanobubble on Jan 25, 2006 7:23 PM
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interview
Also, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest that if you work at Wal-Mart less than 38 hours, you are below the poverty line. I don't think it's a shock to say that if you live in poverty, eating organic is financially difficult. So is having a mortgage, a car, and children, too.
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Posted by: Farmertim on Jan 25, 2006 7:34 PM
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As being a former owner of a small on farm organic store we carried many items as whole foods but never went over 21% markup on items.
We at that mark up were selling organic products carried by whole foods at or near the same price as the conventional food offered at our local IGA.
The suggested retail price of organic items is out of this world.
it ranges from 35 to 80% mark up over wholesale.
I now participate in a local buying club and buy by the case for 5% over wholesale, which saves me up to an average of 50% on the cost of my weekly 100% organic diet.
Yes you have to plan a head and no I can't get the buffet of a Whole Foods but I'm healthy and don't spend anymore for organic than I would for conventional food, and more than likely less as our former customers found out.
You don't need to eat as much organic food as conventional given it is more nutrient dense.(www.westonaprice.org).
For those who wonder why I am a former farmer & store operator it was not because of the lower prices we set, our farm fell to development pressure, enjoy your food while you can.
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Posted by: Falang on Jan 25, 2006 7:47 PM
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We are so fool because we pay less for the food who are poisoning us only in Noth America you kind find so foolish people.
Don't take only my word for it just do the test. Take one can of soup in any grocery store that is made here and look at the ingredients and look at a can of soup who was made in Europe and the answer is there the one made in America have a pile of chemical with sugar added to make those chemical to taste good. Even when they had something natural they make sure to turn it into a poison like the hydrogenated vegetal oils, you wont find those poison in the one coming from Europe.
The day that we will choose not to be poisoned by the big corporation those expensive organic food will become mainstream so not expensive anymore.
The commercial white bread you can find in any strores top it all but people still want there cheap slice white bread. Do the test take 2 or 3 paper coffe filter and put it in your mouth and start to much on it, it taste the same has the white bread, and don't ever look at the ingredients some industrial bakery still make their white bread with beef fat.
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» RE: The fool in America
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: johnvogelin on Jan 25, 2006 10:44 PM
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» RE: The Affordibility of Organic/Local
Posted by: danjkelly2
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Posted by: candara on Jan 26, 2006 1:19 AM
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» RE: salads and evil people
Posted by: unionforever
» RE: salads and evil people
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: salads and evil people
Posted by: danjkelly2
» RE: salads and evil people
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: AmyB on Jan 26, 2006 11:43 AM
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The Whole Foods "food boutique" model says that healthy, tasty food is only for the rich and surely that isn't helping the fact that America's abundant food supply will kill you young if you don't purchase carefully.
My own family of 4 earns about twice as much as poverty level (That means we still earn below the U.S. average income). During the growing season we get a CSA for $160/year. That + a big bag of rice means we eat well very well and can afford organic dairy, farm eggs and other yummy things. In the winter things are bleak, but that makes the green things taste so much better when Spring comes.
All I can say is, as a happy CSA customer I once tried to buy food at a Wal-Mart and felt near panic because there was nothing there to eat. If I were hungry enough I'm sure I'd eat anything but it seems to me that cheap prices alone will not bring good food to the poor.
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Posted by: solsol on Jan 26, 2006 1:57 PM
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» RE: public marketplace
Posted by: redjenny
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Posted by: Face Down in the Dirt on Jan 27, 2006 3:35 PM
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Posted by: spanky on Jan 27, 2006 3:58 PM
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I shop at my local WF a lot. Some of the employees have been there a while and do seem to be reasonably happy in their work environment, and I see them eating the products a lot. The store is almost always packed even in the evenings and the place just radiates quality. Prices for SOME stuff are high. Other stuff not so bad. You are paying for quality, convenience and in some cases enviro friendliness.
Contrast this with your average Safeway, where the employees are often sullen zombies, and the bloated patrons shuffle through the institutional looking aisles dumping over-packaged and over-processed garbage, produced by corporate beasts, into their carts. Not to say that WF isn't part of the machine, but jeesuz who is doing the greater dis-service in the big picture?
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Posted by: hartsmart on Jan 28, 2006 7:57 AM
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Well, folks, in pre-refrigeration life people lived normal, seasonal, rational lives. Herbivorian summer and fall, carnivorian winter and spring! People used food where and when they found it.
What prompted the F&V push? Lack of basic understanding of the food-life cycle. Fruits an veggies plus water became fillers to prevent over-eating. It triggered the exact opposite physical reaction. Why? F&V being substandard nutrition they brought about a panic reaction-- make fat from anything! Read statistics!
Another point the"preventists" seem to miss--vegetarians die jung (er).
'It's laid out in Hart Smart Living 1550569813 (Amazon) and web hartsmartliving.
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Posted by: Snoopy Brown on Jan 28, 2006 9:25 AM
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If you're not buying junk food or meat or dairy, or much in the way of processed foods, and you're buying dry goods in bulk, organic can be an economical option. But good, nutritious, safe food needs to be available to everyone, and that means changing our priorities as a nation away from competition and buying cheap plastic crap towards a sustainable, equitable culture.
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Posted by: ktaadngirl on Jan 29, 2006 3:20 PM
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The produce section of WF is just spectacular, everything is bright and perfect and very appealing. It certainly looks very different than the produce that little co-ops sell, and makes "natural" foods more appealing to a wider variety of people. WF manages this look though, by throwing away EVERYTHING that is slightly bruised or brown or looks anything less than the perfectly plastic image of food. I saw the results of one WF's broken compactor: two giant construction sized dumpsters out on the street, just brimming every day with more edible food than I have ever seen. I know that the system that this country runs on creates a great deal of excess food that is trashed before it even reaches the consumer, but WF is on a completely different level than other stores. It was shocking. And after speaking with an angry employee, I know that WF does not allow ANY of this good food to go home with the workers. WF generates so much waste, that this trash issue alone should lead people to question their seemingly progressive stance.
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Posted by: agfusa on Jan 29, 2006 9:53 PM
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2) Most employees eat at their place of business (if they sell food) mainly because of time constraints. If you get thirty minutes for lunch, it is difficult to go "out" to eat, no matter where you work. Seeing the employees eating the food there signifies nothing (positive OR negative).
3) Examining only the "loss leaders" of a store are not a valid indication of anything. Most stores offer "terrific deals" and some people visit a variety of stores, shopping only what is "on sale." However, these are intentionally discounted items intened to draw the customer into the store. You must take into account all items that people buy on an average trip, not just the "deals." If you shop at WholeFoods for most or all of your grocery needs, not everything on your list will be on sale, just like if you do all of your shopping at any one store.
These are just some things to keep in mind when evaluating the article and some of the comments posted. I have never shopped at WholeFoods because of distance and convenience and do not have any comments positive or negative, but if you are trying to evaluate something, you cannot examine only a small example.
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Posted by: gellero on Jan 31, 2006 9:46 PM
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Posted by: adp3d on Jan 25, 2006 3:00 AM
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Now, it seems to me that if your employees can become your customers and ultimately your stockholders(take care to diversify, lesson learned from Enron), then you have a strong, well run company and Fortune will be turning its spotlight on you. As I mentioned before, I'm not all that educated, I do not have a MBA, so what am I missing with this model?
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» RE: The bottom line is...
Posted by: Lizka
» RE: The bottom line is...
Posted by: magistre
» RE: The bottom line is...
Posted by: weronika
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Posted by: churchofone on Jan 25, 2006 3:04 AM
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» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: bwbrenton
» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: badkitty53
» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: truly scrumptious
» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: felipe
» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: Bimbeot
» RE: How about Trader Joe's?
Posted by: danjkelly2
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Posted by: O.B.Server on Jan 25, 2006 3:30 AM
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» RE: And what about others?
Posted by: drone
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Posted by: anothername on Jan 25, 2006 3:48 AM
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I have shopped at Whole Foods in several cities and have found it to be higher and lower priced than other stores in the same localities, as well as having some items that I could not find elsewhere. The problem is that organic (or any) food is overpriced for many people and that food locally grown is not always cheaper than subsidized California produce. (Take a look at how much water California demands from other states to grow its fruits and vegetables and you will see agriculture that is not sustainable.)
Where I live now I can find organic produce, both fresh and frozen, as well as toiletries that are free of animal products. However, they are sold in small local health food stores or local grocery stores and have a hefty price tag. Moreover, they are not in my neighborhood nor are they near where I work. That means a round trip on the bus and about an extra two hours to make that round trip. Where I lived before this, it was very difficult to find organic food and the price was even more outlandish than where I am now. I found the Whole Foods store that opened in that community to be cheaper than other grocery store chains.
I find that the people who compare Whole Foods prices to their other grocery stores often are trying to compare apples to oranges (pun intended). Might as well put Bread & Circus in Massachusetts, Zabars in New York City, and other upper-scale grocery stores to the Wal-Mart test. They would not pass, either. This is nothing new. Decades ago, a local grocery chain where I was raised carried more expensive products at its stores that were near suburbs than what the same chain carried in its stores located in lower-income neighborhoods.
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» RE: Why not study Wal-Mart workers at Starbucks?
Posted by: crusty
» RE: Why not study Wal-Mart workers at Starbucks?
Posted by: anothername
» RE: Why not study Wal-Mart workers at Starbucks?
Posted by: crusty
» RE: Why not study Wal-Mart workers at Starbucks?
Posted by: nedwylie
» Bread and Circus is now Whole Foods
Posted by: truly scrumptious
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Posted by: dglasner on Jan 25, 2006 4:16 AM
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When it pays to buy organic
OR:
When it pays to buy organic
(don't forget to read the side articles that you can select on the top left)
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» RE: From Consumer Reports: When it pays to buy organic
Posted by: TariffDude
» RE: From Consumer Reports: When it pays to buy organic
Posted by: danjkelly2
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Posted by: candara on Jan 25, 2006 4:24 AM
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» RE: Agree 100%
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» Not only that but what you spend, you save on medical bills and drugs!
Posted by: Pepper
» Oh, and something else I forgot to tell you..........
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Oh, and something else I forgot to tell you..........
Posted by: danjkelly2
» RE: Oh, and something else I forgot to tell you..........
Posted by: candara
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: tussinup
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: mati
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: apapmtz
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: Face Down in the Dirt
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Less than medical bills
Posted by: crusty
» True cost-true worth
Posted by: nedwylie
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Posted by: tscox on Jan 25, 2006 4:35 AM
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Stan Cox
From Joel Kovel:
"The aura of virtue that surrounds 'health-positive' and seemingly cooperative
ventures like Whole Foods tends to block out awareness of just how powerful
an effect is exerted by the macro-economy as it bears down upon firms and
subjects them to the great force-field of capital--subjects them, it should
be added, in proportion to how successful and large-scale they become.
I just bought an inexpensive keyboard from a local music store. The guy who
ran it is a musician, and, whether because he took a shine to me, or whether
he just didn't care that much about being a capitalist, he spontaneously
lowered the price and spent a lot of time going over the instrument with me.
He did something that no store manager at a place like Whole Foods can do
because the latter is just a cog in the machine, and because the firm has to
meet prevailing rates of profit, which means he can't muck around with the
price just because he feels a certain way that day and he can't afford to
not exploit labor, ignore "productivity" and the like. The Whole Foods guy
has got to deal with the prevailing rate of exploitation, which is the value
of labor power, an abstraction imposed by capital itself that forces him to
treat persons as things inorder not to fall behind in the great rat race."
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» RE: More about profit
Posted by: drone
» Uh... bad example.
Posted by: Kneel
» RE: More about profit
Posted by: jumperladd
» RE: More about profit
Posted by: elizacoop
» RE: More about profit
Posted by: Lizka
» Yes and more of them are cropping up along with employee owned ...
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Yes and more of them are cropping up along with employee owned ...
Posted by: danjkelly2
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Posted by: baad on Jan 25, 2006 4:41 AM
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» RE: Chinese Proverb
Posted by: mistawiz
» Oh, you mean the PBS controlled by the CPB run by Bush apptees?
Posted by: Pepper
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Posted by: Lizmv on Jan 25, 2006 5:20 AM
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» RE: Support local Food and Farm programs
Posted by: crusty
» RE: Support local Food and Farm programs
Posted by: NDnative
» Except now there is a law that will kick in 2009...........
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: xcept now there is a law that will kick in 2009...........
Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: xcept now there is a law that will kick in 2009...........
Posted by: crusty
» RE: xcept now there is a law that will kick in 2009...........
Posted by: crusty
» This law is NOT a done deal...yet
Posted by: ideasinca
» RE: Support local Food and Farm programs
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: fifi on Jan 25, 2006 5:21 AM
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multi-millionaire, greedy and doesn't give a damn about the environment or his workers. I advise folks to join a natural foods co-op if they want organic food at great prices. Co-ops give a 10%membership discount - my co-op in Sacramento gives a 10% discount to disabled, seniors and very low income shoppers. My co-op in Sacramento buys DIRECT from organic farmers, eliminates the middleman broker - and sells organic produce CHEAPER than the supermarket. Whole Foods is the absolute worst example of a natural food store. Even Trader Joe's is a better place to shop than whole foods.
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» RE: Brilliant Minds
Posted by: jefhadist
» RE: Join a Food Co-op
Posted by: TheJamea
» RE: Join a Food Co-op - Mine Pays $9.50 Hour Starting Wage
Posted by: skycave
» RE: Join a Food Co-op - Mine Pays $9.50 Hour Starting Wage
Posted by: crusty
» RE: $15 salads
Posted by: crusty
» RE: $15 salads
Posted by: badkitty53
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Posted by: jefhadist on Jan 25, 2006 5:44 AM
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Posted by: kingfelix on Jan 25, 2006 7:04 AM
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there are endless cashiers, salespeople, etc who work in upscale businesses and cannot afford to consume what they sell.
the morgan spurlock-style hands-on research is all very noble, but i could've told you in 5 seconds (as most people could) that the lowest-paid cashier at a Whole Foods can't afford to do all their grocery shopping there.
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Posted by: Kneel on Jan 25, 2006 7:10 AM
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But then, we have to ask why they're so anti-union. Hmmmmm. Must be outside agitators! They're always coming around to stir up trouble among the happy and contented workers!
I do like the impossibly expensive food they carry, but lot of what Whole Foods does is flatter self-indulgent narcissists. (Like the Body Shop, where you can buy petroleum-based lip balm the lets you feel good about the rain forests.)
Whole Foods also profits off your desire to buy responsibly, as with the deceptive Fair Trade coffee bit (and the arms-industry linked venture capitalists backing and profiting off the whole thing).
As for the farmers, they're not getting the extra money you're paying for organic apples. They're getting squeezed by Whole Foods (not the apples, the farmers) so whole foods can pocket the difference, which is what they're all about.
I buy my veggies at a market in a parking lot. You have these things all over Europe, in cities great and small. I don't understand why there aren't more of them, why cities give some kind of break to a big whole foods but don't make available an area for markets that would be far more pleasant and benefit everyone.
Well, except the profiteering middlemen like Whole Foods. There wouldn't be much room for them.
As for these lists of wonderful companies to work for, I have no idea how they're selected. I had a long temp agency assignment at one - there was no childcare (nor much maternity leave) and weak benefits. As you went up the ladder, the company was overwhelmingly male, almost entirely the fair-skinned sort.
But it was an investment company during a boom period, so it made the list - a great company to work as long as you were greedy, male and didn't care about much of anything beyond your next bonus. Beyond that, I can't see what made it so great.
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» RE: Non-Sequitur
Posted by: truly scrumptious
» Yeah, I worry about ragging on some company that is doing right....
Posted by: Pepper
» OK, so then why are they so keen to fight unions?
Posted by: Kneel
» RE: Ask the Arcata Co-Op about how great unions can be...
Posted by: bassman
» RE: Ask the Arcata Co-Op about how great unions can be...
Posted by: Kneel
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Posted by: kiatoa on Jan 25, 2006 7:20 AM
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» A different (not new) tax proposal.
Posted by: TheJamea
» RE: A different (not new) tax proposal.
Posted by: kiatoa
» RE: A different (not new) tax proposal.
Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: A different (not new) tax proposal.
Posted by: TheJamea
» RE: A different (not new) tax proposal.
Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: A simple solution is available. Change the tax system.
Posted by: LuisNolan
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Posted by: saywhat? on Jan 25, 2006 7:30 AM
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i know of one friend who worked there for over 12 years, became employee of the year, and was paraded for the accomplishment, then the following year was fired by his store manager for lending out his discount card...they had narcs in the stores watching the employees and i suspect , the customers....
not having a mar on his record until this time this man was stripped of all his employee paid stock options, and started with another employer with no health benefits and a starting wage of 8$/hour...the man is 53....
he tried to get his case looked at but the human resources dept and john mackey looked the other way...
the store manager who fired him has been on notice for treating segments of his staff poorly...one instance was where the latino staff filed a complaint...
whole foods also was the only grocery store in chicago who wouldn't stand behind a statement the UFW wanted. the UFW statement said that it didn't support sub standard working conditions on the part of the driscoll workers.
they also drove a number of independent health food stores out of business.
i support organic (know that the standards are slipping), so i buy at farmers markets and coops when i can, and independent fruit and vege markets where my greens are usually 1$ less per bunch than WF...
maybe the author can write another expose about costco....i don't know much about them, but they seem to have a happy staff
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» RE: groovy goods
Posted by: Bimbeot
» RE: groovy goods
Posted by: saywhat?
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Posted by: brad on Jan 25, 2006 8:03 AM
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» RE: x organic farmer
Posted by: rothermelgirl
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Posted by: counterpoint on Jan 25, 2006 8:08 AM
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I suspect part of the high prices are the vast assortment of perishable items they carry, much of which I've never watched being placed into anyone's shopping cart. Obviously we are paying for all the exotic stuff they have to dump, too.
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Posted by: hartsmart on Jan 25, 2006 8:18 AM
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Learn to cook! Learn portion control, forgel about organics, go orgasmic for healthy fun exercise!
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Posted by: LizFun on Jan 25, 2006 9:16 AM
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Posted by: levinson.eric on Jan 25, 2006 9:19 AM
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» RE: Subsidies in the wrong places
Posted by: crusty
» RE: Subsidies in the wrong places
Posted by: gladwyn
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Posted by: JohnnyM on Jan 25, 2006 10:02 AM
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You did, however, hit on the real problem. Wal-Mart looks after the investors first, the customers next, and then its employees. It's a circular system. It's a three-way chicken-and-the-egg thing (current wisdom says take care of the investors first - it's where the real money is made so you can't blame the CEO's).
The problem is with wall Street: You have "analysts" who say you should make "this" much money, and even if you are profitable if you don't meet your numbers your investors are displeased, they sell your stock and potentially you're in a downward spiral. If you stay private, you only need to take care of your employees and your customers; no third-party (depending on who invested in the company). The only people who make a killing in the stock market anyways are people who have money to burn in the first place, so it's a system that widens the gap between rich & poor. Therefore, the problem is systemic, and the only way to stop the greed, the corruption, and all the other problems, is to shut-down wall-street.
Since this will likely never happen, the spiral we're on will lead to a wider gap and eventual economic collapse. If I work at Wal-Mart but can't afford to shop there, who is going to shop there? If I work at Ford but can't afford their cars (or can't afford the constant maintenance they require :)), who is going to buy them? A smaller-and-smaller group...Of course, there's always the ability to sell overseas, curently China seems hot, until their economic system mirrors ours and we run out of countries...
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Posted by: cold2touch on Jan 25, 2006 10:09 AM
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Posted by: NDnative on Jan 25, 2006 10:14 AM
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Posted by: bettsoff on Jan 25, 2006 10:14 AM
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» RE: *throws up hands*
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: zinnia on Jan 25, 2006 10:17 AM
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But, I do wonder about the statement at the end, about how most of the poorest counties in the US are rural, and the irony of the people living there being least likely to afford healthy food. Isn't this just based on income, though, and not taking into account that lots of rural people grow their own stuff, which wouldn't necessarily be "officially" accounted for? For example, my folks live in NW Minnesota, right smack in the middle of the Red River Valley, one of the most fertile places in the US and a big agricultural region. They always grow a huge veggie garden, and can and freeze stuff, and with friends and co-workers they share produce, sometimes trading for stuff they don't grow. So, their eating habits are not necessarily reflected in their lower-middle class income. Also, rural people might be more likely to get food from places that city people would be less likely to, like Hutterite colonies or similar groups that raise animals and will butcher them to order, so you can stock up your freezer. My parents do this, and their food costs aren't that bad - certainly not nearly as bad as the cost of the gas they use to get around their rural landscape.
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Posted by: mom'z the word on Jan 25, 2006 10:26 AM
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Jan 25, 2006 10:40 AM
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Yes their food is more expensive to buy but I wonder how long this trend of consumerism can benefit the country. A 12-ounce box of Honey Nut Cheerios at WF cost nealy $5 while at Vons it's about $3.50. Someone's getting skewered here.
What makes this scandulous is cereals, salads, soups, well, nearly everything IS higher at WF (same with Trader Joe's) than at a supermarket.
Another problem with WF is they will not allow any unionization. Work there at your own risk. Employees work w/o benefits. Most WF workers are under the age of 40, most of them college-age.
I know we all have choices where we spend our money, but why does the cost of eating has to be so high?
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Posted by: pianojo on Jan 25, 2006 10:57 AM
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As former owner, for 8 years, of a mom-and-pop natural food store, I can tell you that comparing Whole Foods to Walmart is utter NONSENSE. You cannot do such a thing honestly.
The natural foods industry is being corrupted by the sale of once fine companies to multi-nationals that then turn around and destroy the products they buy. Products that once had no sugar now have sugar. Products that once had no white flour now have white flour. etc. etc. There is a movement to even destroy the meaning of ORGANIC, i.e. to allow those companies that produce organic products to add chemicals and other crap and still call their products ORGANIC while continuing to charge high prices. Should this come to pass ORGANIC will be meaningless. The industry is being destroyed from the inside. And no one is saying or doing anything to stop the slide into disaster.
That said, even with this ongoing destruction, the products found in Whole Foods are still (as of today) hands-down nutritionally superior to anything found in Walmart or supermarkets. And it takes money and time to grow and produce organic and nutritionally superior foods. Period. Given also that these products are produced in smaller quantities than the food found in Walmart and supermarkets, prices will usually be higher, unfortunately. So, trying to compare the two types of stores is an exercise in futility.
However, if no one does anything to stop the destruction of the health food industry, once health food stores are on a par - nutritionally - with Walmart and supermarkets, then why bother to shop there? When that day comes, I for one will stop shopping in Whole Foods.
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» RE: idiotic article
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» Right...up to a point
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: handyrae on Jan 25, 2006 11:23 AM
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I remember reading quite a while ago that Wal-Mart sells produce that is grades below the top grade available. I don't know if that's true, but I've never been happy with the produce at Wal-Mart because it rarely seems to be of good quality. So yes the stuff might be cheap, but you get what you pay for.
And don't get me started on the meat at Wal-Mart. There isn't any of it that isn't overprocessed and injected with some vile "flavor" solution that leaves its taste and texture horribley unnatural. I call it Solient Green, because that's what it reminds me of. So yes, the price is low, but they'd have to PAY ME to eat it.
It's about trade-offs in life. I don't make a lot of money, but I can spend extra at WF which makes me happy (and healtier) because I don't own all the latest tech devices and have no problem driving a used Toyoto Echo which cost $10,000 and gets 45 MPH.
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Posted by: mont on Jan 25, 2006 12:01 PM
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I also shop at Trader Joes and feel their quality is excellent while their pricing is substantialy less. I have a garden and chickens which helps a lot. I am quite old now and remember quite well the victory gardens we all had, even in the cities, during the second world war. I expect a faltering economy may help the return to saner ways.
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Posted by: mmeetoilenoir on Jan 25, 2006 12:11 PM
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As far as employee hapiness is concerned, there is no company that I've seen (and I've worked for several) that has perfectly blissful employees making a perfect living wage.
The unionzation problem? I see that most of the people working at the supermarkets in my area are teens; I'm wondering if we're just not teaching them the value of unionization young enough, before they reach thier working years.
Prices? Sorry, folks. I do BETTER on some items at WF. 100% pure juice? Cheaper than the normal market. Soda? Natural soda, cheap as dirt. Bottled water? The big liter and a halfs are under a dollar. Tomato sauce and pasta? Delicious, and cheaper as well. Some things are ridiculously pricey, but I stay away from them. I'm very fortunate to also have a big-name store near us that stocks a nice array of natural and organic products, including thier own line, so I can actually comparison shop some items.
I don't even know anyone who does all thier shopping at WF, or Trader Joe's. They always supplement it with the normal stores, so by the time all is said and done, expenditures end up being pretty even.
I guess what I'm saying is that everything has its flaws. I would rather cut of my right boob than shop at Wal-Bitch, but I will also not spend $10 and an hour or more to get to a co-op (I don't have a car, and I'm not near one) just so I can evade Whole Foods.
Another point...no, some of thier employees can't shop there. It happens. I worked for Oilily for a while, and wow! Yeah, couldn't buy much. Their sweaters routinely cost $200 or more. Even with my 50% off, it was outta control and outta reach. Oh well.
I know I'm rambling, but I feel that there are people who take our great strength and power as progressives and squander it on silly premises like this author did. These are words that could have been used more constructively. We can't keep whacking away at EVERY. LITTLE. THING in this world that isn't bright, perfect, and sunny. Hell, when I was in grade school, we would never have imagined that there would be a place to buy organic food in so many varieties. Be happy that we have it, and let's try to push for other new and worthy things.
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Posted by: Lizka on Jan 25, 2006 12:38 PM
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I don't know how that would affect the company's profits: but I think that the products would have to be priced a little higher in order to still make it viable.
Which would, yes, price Wal-Mart workers and others on a low income out of shopping there on a regular basis. But I bellieve that Wal-Mart should pay its workers better wages in the first place: and that all workplaces should be unionized. And that if at least one "posh environmentally-friendly" store chain would pay higher wages in recognition of this, this would put pressure on other retail outlets to follow. And then Wal-mart would be left at the bottom looking like the rat it is. Anyway, I got an e-mail in my mailbox the other day, from this health site I subscribe to: apparently, Wal-Mart's Chilean farmed salmon is, although cheap, bad for you: it's not at all suitable for someone on an "anti-inflammatory" diet, because it's full of antibiotics. And it wreaks hell with the Chilean environment too. Produces a lot of waste matter.
I don't think that the American workplace will improve unless more people are prepared to make more radical decisions. And I think that asking if a Wal-Mart worker could afford to shop at this organic place is the wrong way of framing the question anyway.
Of course a worker should be able to afford to buy, partake in, the product which he or she makes or sells. That should be a moral absolute, particularly in a democracy. Go to the IWW site and read their old tales of the silk-weaving industry, as your example. More people should behave like workers did then, and then amerika wouldn't be in such a pickle.
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Posted by: Bimbeot on Jan 25, 2006 12:47 PM
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lINDEPENDENT AMERICA
On a related note I also read an excellent article from the NYTimes about a small grocery chain (New Seasons) in Portland, Oregon that believes in the whole food culture that goes beyond the co-opted word "Organic" and goes into local and sustainable. Apparently it works because Oregon is one of the states where the amount of farms is increasing and Conservatives and Progressives are both benefitting.
New Seasons Markets
Eating Well
In Oregon, Thinking Local
By MARIAN BURROS
Published: January 4, 2006
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Posted by: boygranddakar on Jan 25, 2006 1:51 PM
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I feel trapped by the lack of alternatives. WF isn't going to change its business model simply because some shoppers don't like their anti-union policies or their bald profiteering - you would need a boycott, but that requires having other souces of good food and there just aren't enough. We don't all live in Oakland, Portland, or Brooklyn.
Instead of excoriating WF, we should push for organic food in conventional markets (which already have unions), and not just in upscale neighborhoods. Fresh produce and canned goods are not that expensive (relative to prepared and processed foods like bread and cereal). There's no reason that every market can't have some organic offerings. People make choices about food shopping mostly on the basis of convenience. We should try to ensure there's a little organic (and local, and sustainable) everywhere.
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Posted by: alterhead on Jan 25, 2006 2:25 PM
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» RE: WF IS the WM of the Natural foods Industry
Posted by: pianojo
» RE: WF IS the WM of the Natural foods Industry
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: gliddonc on Jan 25, 2006 3:01 PM
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The executive from Whole Foods made the basic argument, "you get what you pay for," which is true for the most part. If I buy a more expensive car, I'm likely to get better engineering, more features and reliability and warranty support, etc., than if I buy a less expensive one.
I'm certainly a liberal, social and otherwise, but the notion that all corporations must take care of their employees seems to put power in the hands of those you most disdain.
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» RE: Cliff
Posted by: crusty
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Posted by: wordsintotype on Jan 25, 2006 3:36 PM
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Here is what I know:
1. I made $18 an hour at my job. My health care premium was free. In addition, I was given $1,200 a year to spend on out-of-pocket medical expenses. After a certain number of service hours, employees receive stock options. I received a regional "All Star" award and was given a pay bonus and stock options. Every department also received monthly labor surpluses. These amounted to several hundred extra dollars a month. These are benefits that every employee, cashiers included, receive. I received a 20% discount, which I could use on anything, including sale items. My point is that the benefits are better than people assume. Most of the employees, including myself, did not want to unionize, because our pay and benefits would be worse than what we already had.
2. Most people don't know what makes Whole Foods different from ANY other grocery store. Whole Foods has very strict quality standards. It's not about what's IN the food (yes, there is white flour, but it is neither bleached nor bromated); it's about what's NOT in it. Whole Foods does not sell any products that contain artificial sweeteners, flavorings, colorings, preservatives, or hydrogenated oils. Meat is from animals that have been raised without synthetic growth hormones or antibiotics, etc. Unfortunately, this kind of food is currently more expensive than conventional, chemical-laden food.
3. Yes, Whole Foods has a goal of being a financially healthy, profitable company. Financially healthy, profitable companies wield a lot of power. It's how that power is used that's important. Whole Foods just announced that it will be purchasing 100% of its energy in the form of wind power. Companies like Whole Foods do not wait for the government to mandate the purchase of alternative energy. They take the lead and change the landscape of business as well as contribute to the health of the planet.
Whole Foods is not a perfect company. Not every employee is happy. But Whole Foods is revolutionizing the grocery industry, animal husbandry, and the way business is being done in this country. Mackey is a visionary. We need to spend less time bandying about misinformation and more time listening to his revolutionary ideas about business in America.
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» RE: A view from the inside
Posted by: tomo
» RE: A view from the inside
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: A view from the inside
Posted by: candara
» RE: A view from the inside
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: tomo on Jan 25, 2006 3:40 PM
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Posted by: saretto on Jan 25, 2006 3:44 PM
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At any rate, these people, about 6-10 familes, got together and had a community garden. They worked out shifts and labor and how to divide up the food. It took less time and everybody lucked out b/c they didn't have to pay those prices their re-occuring investment were the seeds, the water, the soil nutirents and the labor. In urban areas the same can be accomplished on the roofs of buildings even indoors.
The food is organic and you have enough for everyone.
Imagine...
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» RE: No room for it but what the heck
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: anniedine on Jan 25, 2006 4:22 PM
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Mackey is a no-holds-barred libertarian capitalist. Mix that with the burgeoning healthy foods, alternative health, and organic movements, and you get exploding company growth. Same for Wild Oats. Now we have Sunflower, Trader Joes, and all the rest (many of which have now been sucked up by WF or WO) capitalizing on a trend. No mystery here.
The beauty of this is that the whole "industry" represented by these money-bloated behemoths is growing and developing. Your local non-alternative grocery store now has an aisle just for earthy-crunchy-healthy foods. Know what that means? Joe and Jane Sixpack see these foods in their "normal" shopping haunts and begin taking it all much more seriously. Pretty soon, 'ol lactose-intolerant Joe is swigging Silk and talking about how organic tomatoes taste like the ones his grandmother used to grow when he was little.
It's sad that Coca-Cola now owns some of the once-pure companies that made healthy foods (and changed the ingredients accordingly), but pretty soon the consumers exposed to better food will be more willing to check out places like Vitamin Cottage (Colorado/New Mexico) to see what other goodies they can get. They go there because it's small, quaint, and they've heard the prices are a whole lot better than those pricey designer places. And what they find is 100% organic produce and a whole lot of products that don't have refined sugars or other similar poison.
Know how I know this? Because Austin (WF's homebase) also has a highly successful food coop, a number of mom-and-pop natural food/vitamin stores, AND a main stream market with thousands of healthy alternative products on their shelves. Happily, with consumers seeing their options, it's only going to get better for producers and grocers in this marketplace.
Then there will be more competition for consumers. Then prices will come down to a reasonable level. And ideally, farmer and worker unions will work on getting a piece of this burgeoning economic pie.
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Posted by: smuney on Jan 25, 2006 6:25 PM
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» RE: Others besides Trader Joe's
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
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Posted by: Resist&Multiply on Jan 25, 2006 6:46 PM
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Whole Food is expensive, no doubt. I shop there now and I know first hand. But the impact they’ve had on mainstream grocery chains cannot be underestimated. Now when you walk into a Safeway, Albertson’s, etc, you’ll find an organic section. Five years ago that wasn’t a reality. Organic food is expensive to produce and expensive to ship, so the cost, like any other product, is passed on to the consumer. Still, when you shop organic, you are voting with your dollar. It’s the same thing as buying a hybrid car. You’re changing the market for the better. The money you spend now is an investment in your health and the future of the environment. Don’t bash Whole Foods for using the system to change the system.
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» RE: I worked for whole foods. I shop there still.
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: nanobubble on Jan 25, 2006 7:23 PM
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interview
Also, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest that if you work at Wal-Mart less than 38 hours, you are below the poverty line. I don't think it's a shock to say that if you live in poverty, eating organic is financially difficult. So is having a mortgage, a car, and children, too.
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Posted by: Farmertim on Jan 25, 2006 7:34 PM
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As being a former owner of a small on farm organic store we carried many items as whole foods but never went over 21% markup on items.
We at that mark up were selling organic products carried by whole foods at or near the same price as the conventional food offered at our local IGA.
The suggested retail price of organic items is out of this world.
it ranges from 35 to 80% mark up over wholesale.
I now participate in a local buying club and buy by the case for 5% over wholesale, which saves me up to an average of 50% on the cost of my weekly 100% organic diet.
Yes you have to plan a head and no I can't get the buffet of a Whole Foods but I'm healthy and don't spend anymore for organic than I would for conventional food, and more than likely less as our former customers found out.
You don't need to eat as much organic food as conventional given it is more nutrient dense.(www.westonaprice.org).
For those who wonder why I am a former farmer & store operator it was not because of the lower prices we set, our farm fell to development pressure, enjoy your food while you can.
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Posted by: Falang on Jan 25, 2006 7:47 PM
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We are so fool because we pay less for the food who are poisoning us only in Noth America you kind find so foolish people.
Don't take only my word for it just do the test. Take one can of soup in any grocery store that is made here and look at the ingredients and look at a can of soup who was made in Europe and the answer is there the one made in America have a pile of chemical with sugar added to make those chemical to taste good. Even when they had something natural they make sure to turn it into a poison like the hydrogenated vegetal oils, you wont find those poison in the one coming from Europe.
The day that we will choose not to be poisoned by the big corporation those expensive organic food will become mainstream so not expensive anymore.
The commercial white bread you can find in any strores top it all but people still want there cheap slice white bread. Do the test take 2 or 3 paper coffe filter and put it in your mouth and start to much on it, it taste the same has the white bread, and don't ever look at the ingredients some industrial bakery still make their white bread with beef fat.
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» RE: The fool in America
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: johnvogelin on Jan 25, 2006 10:44 PM
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» RE: The Affordibility of Organic/Local
Posted by: danjkelly2
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Posted by: candara on Jan 26, 2006 1:19 AM
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» RE: salads and evil people
Posted by: unionforever
» RE: salads and evil people
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: salads and evil people
Posted by: danjkelly2
» RE: salads and evil people
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: AmyB on Jan 26, 2006 11:43 AM
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The Whole Foods "food boutique" model says that healthy, tasty food is only for the rich and surely that isn't helping the fact that America's abundant food supply will kill you young if you don't purchase carefully.
My own family of 4 earns about twice as much as poverty level (That means we still earn below the U.S. average income). During the growing season we get a CSA for $160/year. That + a big bag of rice means we eat well very well and can afford organic dairy, farm eggs and other yummy things. In the winter things are bleak, but that makes the green things taste so much better when Spring comes.
All I can say is, as a happy CSA customer I once tried to buy food at a Wal-Mart and felt near panic because there was nothing there to eat. If I were hungry enough I'm sure I'd eat anything but it seems to me that cheap prices alone will not bring good food to the poor.
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Posted by: solsol on Jan 26, 2006 1:57 PM
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» RE: public marketplace
Posted by: redjenny
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Posted by: Face Down in the Dirt on Jan 27, 2006 3:35 PM
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Posted by: spanky on Jan 27, 2006 3:58 PM
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I shop at my local WF a lot. Some of the employees have been there a while and do seem to be reasonably happy in their work environment, and I see them eating the products a lot. The store is almost always packed even in the evenings and the place just radiates quality. Prices for SOME stuff are high. Other stuff not so bad. You are paying for quality, convenience and in some cases enviro friendliness.
Contrast this with your average Safeway, where the employees are often sullen zombies, and the bloated patrons shuffle through the institutional looking aisles dumping over-packaged and over-processed garbage, produced by corporate beasts, into their carts. Not to say that WF isn't part of the machine, but jeesuz who is doing the greater dis-service in the big picture?
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Posted by: hartsmart on Jan 28, 2006 7:57 AM
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Well, folks, in pre-refrigeration life people lived normal, seasonal, rational lives. Herbivorian summer and fall, carnivorian winter and spring! People used food where and when they found it.
What prompted the F&V push? Lack of basic understanding of the food-life cycle. Fruits an veggies plus water became fillers to prevent over-eating. It triggered the exact opposite physical reaction. Why? F&V being substandard nutrition they brought about a panic reaction-- make fat from anything! Read statistics!
Another point the"preventists" seem to miss--vegetarians die jung (er).
'It's laid out in Hart Smart Living 1550569813 (Amazon) and web hartsmartliving.
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Posted by: Snoopy Brown on Jan 28, 2006 9:25 AM
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If you're not buying junk food or meat or dairy, or much in the way of processed foods, and you're buying dry goods in bulk, organic can be an economical option. But good, nutritious, safe food needs to be available to everyone, and that means changing our priorities as a nation away from competition and buying cheap plastic crap towards a sustainable, equitable culture.
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Posted by: ktaadngirl on Jan 29, 2006 3:20 PM
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The produce section of WF is just spectacular, everything is bright and perfect and very appealing. It certainly looks very different than the produce that little co-ops sell, and makes "natural" foods more appealing to a wider variety of people. WF manages this look though, by throwing away EVERYTHING that is slightly bruised or brown or looks anything less than the perfectly plastic image of food. I saw the results of one WF's broken compactor: two giant construction sized dumpsters out on the street, just brimming every day with more edible food than I have ever seen. I know that the system that this country runs on creates a great deal of excess food that is trashed before it even reaches the consumer, but WF is on a completely different level than other stores. It was shocking. And after speaking with an angry employee, I know that WF does not allow ANY of this good food to go home with the workers. WF generates so much waste, that this trash issue alone should lead people to question their seemingly progressive stance.
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Posted by: agfusa on Jan 29, 2006 9:53 PM
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2) Most employees eat at their place of business (if they sell food) mainly because of time constraints. If you get thirty minutes for lunch, it is difficult to go "out" to eat, no matter where you work. Seeing the employees eating the food there signifies nothing (positive OR negative).
3) Examining only the "loss leaders" of a store are not a valid indication of anything. Most stores offer "terrific deals" and some people visit a variety of stores, shopping only what is "on sale." However, these are intentionally discounted items intened to draw the customer into the store. You must take into account all items that people buy on an average trip, not just the "deals." If you shop at WholeFoods for most or all of your grocery needs, not everything on your list will be on sale, just like if you do all of your shopping at any one store.
These are just some things to keep in mind when evaluating the article and some of the comments posted. I have never shopped at WholeFoods because of distance and convenience and do not have any comments positive or negative, but if you are trying to evaluate something, you cannot examine only a small example.
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Posted by: gellero on Jan 31, 2006 9:46 PM
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