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Hillary is Not a Lock for 2008

By Arianna Huffington, AlterNet. Posted January 24, 2006.


No matter what the conventional wisdom says, there are some serious chinks in Clinton's political armor.

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You hear it again and again around the Beltway. Hillary sitting atop the Democratic ticket in '08 is all but a done deal. She's got too much name recognition, too much money, too much star power to be denied. In short, the Washington Conventional Wisdom is that Hillary is unbeatable for the nomination because she is unbeatable for the nomination.

QED.

But how reliable is this piece of DC CW? According to a quick survey of the facts on the ground: not very.

Let's start with the oft-cited notion that thanks to her relentless triangulation (anti-flag burning, anyone?), hawkish stance on the war, and frequent photo ops with the likes of Gingrich, Frist, and Santorum, Hillary has put her liberal past behind her and now has the ability to attract red state voters. True believers in this tenet point to Hillary's popularity in conservative upstate New York as proof.

"Like Moses leading her party to the Promised Land," wrote Eleanor Clift in Newsweek, "Hillary is treading a path to Red-State America. She may be the darling of the liberal left, but she won in New York by appealing to upstate voters who are traditionally Republican."

Clinton insider Mike McCurry agreed: "Hillary really went upstate New York and won the hearts of people there. That's hard to do, because that's pretty much red-state country in some of those counties up there."

Sounds very convincing. The trouble is, it's wrong -- as Marisa Katz shows in this week's New Republic in her terrific takedown of the Upstate = Red State myth. "Numbers-wise," Katz writes, "upstate [New York] is far more purple than red." And she reminds us that "even in this less-than-hostile-terrain" Hillary "actually lost upstate by three points to her 2000 opponent, Rick Lazio."

Even more damning is the fact that the presidential runs of both Al Gore and John Kerry attracted more upstate voters -- and carried more upstate counties -- than Hillary did. "If Gore and Kerry won upstate New York," writes Katz, "but couldn't make sufficient red-state inroads, Clinton's loss upstate doesn't seem to bode well for her potential in truly red parts of the country." The final nail in the upstate/redstate coffin: Hillary's upstate numbers are very similar to those of the senior senator from New York, Chuck Schumer -- and, as Katz zings it, "no one is talking him up as the Democrats' best chance to reclaim the White House."

The other side of the Hillary-can't-miss equation is her strength with the Democratic base. You often hear this from those trying to rationalize her feints to the right -- the thinking being that her triangulation is okay because, hey, she's already got the grassroots sewn up.

This CW was summed up by the New York Daily News when it brushed off Hillary's conservative stances, saying that despite her "ideological diversions, much of the Democratic power base still adores Hillary." Or as Susan Estrich wrote in "The Case for Hillary Clinton": "Which of your safe white men are going to excite the base the way Hillary does, so they can spend all their time in the middle. I'll answer: None."

But does the Democratic base really love Hillary? The latest straw poll taken by MyDD would seem to indicate otherwise. Hillary came in seventh. That's right, seventh, placing behind -- in order -- Feingold, Clark, Warner, Edwards, Richardson, and "Undecided." Sure, MyDD is just one blog, but it's an influential one -- and, increasingly grassroots and netroots are becoming one and the same.

After the Hillary-in-sixth poll ran, MyDD's Chris Bowers followed up with a post titled "Why the Blogosphere and the Netroots Do Not Like Hillary Clinton." Slate's Jacob Weisberg argued that Hillary is simply too unlikable to win. Then there was Molly Ivins' Hillary bodyslam, an "I've had enough" blow that clearly hit a nerve. I've had that column forwarded to me more times in the last few days than I can count.

Ivins' shot from the progressive side of the aisle was followed by Andrew Sullivan's blast from the conservative. Sounds like the makings of a countervailing consensus.

So much for politics. What about the cultural zeitgeist? After 8 years of the Cowboy from Crawford isn't the country finally ready for a woman in the Oval Office? Proponents of this theory often point to the popularity of ABC's "Commander-in-Chief" as Exhibit A. Indeed, I heard more than one Hollywood-based fan of Hillary suggest that Geena Davis' Best Actress win at the Golden Globes bodes well for Hillary carrying Iowa. Hey, who needs the primaries when you've got the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, right?

But those trying to read the cultural zeitgeist -- let alone equate it with political popularity -- better beware. Nielsen families can be a very fickle voting bloc. Just ask Heather Graham, who went from being the new face of ABC to the TV slagheap after just one-and-done airing of her "Emily's Reasons Why Not."

Despite Davis' win, "Commander-in-Chief" has, to the chagrin of all of us who would love to see nothing better than a woman in the oval office, seen a steady decline in its ratings. "It's been tough sledding," Steve McPherson, ABC's president of prime time entertainment, told a gathering of TV critics this weekend.

It's a pity. It's a good show that I love watching with my two teenage daughters. Which is more than I can say for Hillary's dreary slog toward '08. So forget the Hillary CW. Democrats looking to win back the White House had better start offering their "Reasons Why Not."

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Open comment to Hillary Clinton.
Posted by: esactun on Jan 24, 2006 11:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, Hillary: Considering that roughly half the country is "your base" and the other half are your opposition, let me tell you that the numbers for '08 simply don't work.

If half your alleged "base" doesn't like you (and trust me, they don't), and at least three-quarters of your opposition absolutely hates you (as you well know), then the country is approximately 62.5% "nay" on your presumptive candidacy.

You can't win. you haven't a chance in hell. Call it unfair, but whoop, there it is.

And don't look at it as a reflection of America not wanting a woman in the White House. I'm sure most of America really wouldn't mind, including a bunch of red staters.

But America certainly doesn't want a woman named Hillary Clinton in the White House. (Unless you happen to have a namesake.) Save us all some grief and don't bother running. If you really feel the need to run, run in '12 or '16. Please. We beg you. You'll ruin the party (and, by extension in these times, America) if you run.

You don't have THAT big of an ego, do you?

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what about Bill?
Posted by: pg on Jan 24, 2006 12:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read a lot about Hillary in 2008. My question is what about Bill? Is Bill an asset or a liability to her campaign? What will he be doing while she runs the country? I am surised by the lack of discussion on this curious topic...

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No more Clinton's and Bush's
Posted by: Nonave on Jan 24, 2006 1:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does anyone really want to stick with the Bush Sr./ Bill Clinton/Bush Jr./ Hillary Clinton paradigm? This is getting sickening. First we have 8 yrs of Bush Sr. as Reagan's VP, then 4 yrs of Bush Sr. as President, then 8 yrs of Bill Clinton, then 8 yrs of Bush Jr, and people actually want another 4 of Hillary Clinton (and of course Bill most likely by her side), possibly 8 years? What is this, an aristocracy where the most famous name is automatically elected?

It seems like people (at least the most vocal branch of the Democratic party) want to stick with the same names and failed policies forever. The trick doesn't seem to be to try to appeal to the "red states" (like Hillary is doing which makes her look as if she has no ideals whatsoever, which is probably unfortunately true), but to try to inform and change how the people in the red states think and have them vote in their best interests for a change. That's the only way to go if a candidate wants to maintain some sincerity.

I personally, and there are a lot of people who think like me out there, will not vote for Hillary if she runs in 2008. Almost anyone seems better than another Clinton in office. Maybe people tend to wax sympathetic over the name of Clinton only because anyone seems grand compared to Bush Jr.

It's time for change. Not more of the same. Hillary sure as hell won't do it.

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» RE: No more Clinton's and Bush's Posted by: tclaverdure
W or Hillary on Mount Rushmore?
Posted by: vespasian01 on Jan 24, 2006 9:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have three full years of B2 left. My guess is that even moderate Republicans will be chafing for change by 2008. If the Democrats offer a straight-speaking candidate by then, I think he'd have a chance.

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Basic Political Math
Posted by: AlanSmithee on Jan 25, 2006 3:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, the DNC knows this about it's base: If You Voted For Kerry - You'll Vote For Hillary.

Call that the Stupid Factor (S).

Now, take buckets of DLC money (M) plus Beltway Spin (B) and multiply by X

(M+B)*S = Hillary

See? It's easy! You too can be a DNC na-bob!

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It would be a Republican "slam dunk"...
Posted by: adp3d on Jan 25, 2006 3:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...if Clinton were to gain the nomination. She is the favorite among Republicans in fact. Obama has said no, Russ Feingold has tossed his hat in, he could run as a fiscally conservative progressive. Al Gore should stay away...

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Hillary's true colors are clear as day
Posted by: jolo on Jan 25, 2006 3:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In Hillary's ambition to get the Democratic nomination, here true nature came out. .
Hillary is a gutless nobody who has shown to be no different than any of the Republicans or the lineup of gutless, no-opinion Democrats out there.
hillary stands for nothing, no one and no body ....but herself of course.

In her slimey to abandon those who got her elected , she will anything and anything that will help her get elected. I lost all respect for her, and those who had idealistic stars in their eyes and helped her get elected can tell stories of how Hillary wouldn't return their calls as she abandon what they thought, were her "causes'.

An example of Hillary the fake:

1. She is for the extended abuse given to the U.S. soldiers and wants them to continue to be abused and used as pawns for the Administration. She does NOT want the soldiers to come home, because "we can't leave until something of good happens there".

2. Hillary has been filling up her financial war chest on the back of U.S. workers. She has had trips to India and created a committee that met with the Corrupt business leader of India (no different than ours), to assure them that offshoring will continue and not to worry about any states that may create pro-American, anti-offshore legislation. Corporate America and the Indian consulting firms really loved her for that. She is anti-labor, anti-middle-class, anti-America in general.

3. Hillary has watched the corruption, scandels, murdering and abusing of our military and their families, privitation of the war, where there are MORE mercenaries, who are paid big bucks to fight in the mideast than England ever had in the war.

4. She has been a great apologist for what I think was Clinton's biggest blunder, NAFTRA. Of course Bill Clinton has ex-presidents Ford, Regan and Bush Sr on stage with him to push for NAFTRA. What a fiasco that turned out to be as the funds designated for American's to get "retrained" weren't there.

5. Any women who wants Hillary, just because she is a female, is a bigoted, blind idiot. I am reminded of when Hewlett-Packard brought in a female CEO . Karly wound up destroying two companies, the "model" U.S. corporation, HP and Compaq and walked off laying off thousands upon thousands and making millions upon millioms by raping both companies as well as offshoring top talent.

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How Hillary Unites the Right
Posted by: Patrick Murfin on Jan 25, 2006 4:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here’s a flash from McHenry County, a very red spot in a generally blue state, Illinois. Hillary is supposed appeal to conservative voters? Forget about it. Nothing unites the conservative base of the Republican Party more than their visceral loathing for Hillary. Even more than Slick Willy himself she is the one that can get that purple vein in the forehead that is issued to Ditto Heads at birth pounding.

Some Democrats delude themselves that this fact alone is a plus. What ever those pin heads hate must be good, right? Wrong. The very same stupid ineptness we notice in the Bush presidency is beginning to demoralize a lot of right wingers. And the grand coalition of religious zealots, corporate Mandarins, imperial dreamers, deficit hawk budget balancers, and libertarians is fraying. The latter two categories are already near revolt and the first three are now ready to turn on each other as they assert their claims for primacy in the party. A lot of that reliable rank and file who would crawl through glass to vote Republican—the ones the Roveian strategy of wedge issue politics count on—are loosing the old fire in the belly. Put Hillary up as Democratic nominee and he gets them all back.

In return she is expected to capture the votes of Republican pro-choice suburban soccer moms. So what. Even with the security blip for George W. among them last election, these women have been voting Democratic in national elections for years, just not admitting it to their husbands. No plus here.

On the other hand the progressive Democratic base is fed up with her position on the war and pandering of social issues. These were the mobilized shock troops that nearly pulled John Kerry’s inept campaign out of the dumpster. If Hillary is anointed the nominee presumptive they’ll start looking for the next Henry Wallace. Hell, even Ralph Nader’s dubious charms may become seductive. Loose enough of the left base and there is not enough center remaining to beat the GOP.

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Hillary
Posted by: ftorres on Jan 25, 2006 6:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like with Ralph Nader, the GOP will support Hillary with the necessary funds to run. It's a sure winner for them in '08!

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» RE: Hillary Posted by: Jersey Devil
» RE: Hillary Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Hillary Posted by: KansasBob
Conspiracy Theory?
Posted by: Wacre on Jan 25, 2006 9:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hear a lot of buzz in reference to Hillary Clinton getting the the Democratic nod for President in '08, and I have to wonder in whose interests such information is being spread because the factors against her winning far outweigh those in her favor.

First off, she's a woman. On the face of it, and in a saner world that would make no difference, but let's not kid ourselves. There are many dated and inefficient (considering the percentage of women is greater than that of men, if I recall correctly) notions that American society hasn't gotten over (like our current drug policies), and I believe that a woman being President is one of them. Also, and rather unfortunately, when women do reach similar positions of power they either have to prove themselves stronger or tougher than men (Margaret Thatcher, Madeleine Albright) or be compromised before they ever assume a position in government (Condaleeza Rice, and her ties--or should I say entanglement--with Big Oil).

The whole point of the prior paragraph is that, to assume positions of power in America women generally are forced to give up many of the qualities and perspectives that make them such valuable and gifted individuals.

Secondly, she's married to Bill Clinton. Despite his weaknesses, he is a political animal, and I suspect that his signature and guidance are all over Hillary's campaign, which is unfortunately going to make many of her moves seem very caluclated and, for her, somewhat unnatural; like her comparison of the current Republican Congress to a plantation, which may have elements of truth though it felt mostly like pandering, as if such a comparison that somehow made her privy to the suffering that persons of color have and continue to endure in this country.

So, in reference to my original point, in whose interest is it really that Hillary Clinton run for president?

Does it benefit Democrats, or would she simply be a way for Republicans to once again claim the Presidency, her running countering the fact that George Bush is quite possibly the most incompetent president ever.

This would work by Republicans citing Hillary's awkward straddling of the gap between those members of the Democratic Left that I have heard support her, and those of a more moderate worldview, as well as the failed health plan that she was at the helm of.

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clinker
Posted by: cottontail on Jan 25, 2006 10:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All this blather about Hillary for pres must be coming from the RNC. They'd love to have her as the Dem nominee. The Democratic party cannot win nor will it survive by running another political hack. Perhaps, if they wake up, ordinary working people may have a say in who'll win in '08, but don't bet on it.

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What (Perhaps) We Are Overlooking
Posted by: ckershere on Jan 25, 2006 12:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is the possibility that Hillary would deal with real- life issues, and choose not to preside over an administration whose corruption hinders any actual work for the people.

Clearly her party and her alignments make her a great political scapegoat. But I'd like to watch a presidential election that happens during the backlash of an angry public who is fed up with propoganda and wants their administration to perform services that actually improve the lives of American poeple. It's the economy, stupid. The local economy.

Could we start creating jobs that don't suck? Hillary might have some awesome suggestions for those politics. We need someone who can cooperate with lobbyists without pandering to them. I wonder if she would support publicly-funded elections. Maybe those are the kinds of questions that we should be asking... ?!

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Hilary - no - don't think so
Posted by: chanceny on Jan 25, 2006 1:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was elated when Hillary Clinton took on all those bullcrap babblers and won her seat in the senate. As a New Yorker I felt she could do much for the state considering her knowlegde of how the game was played and her many powerful political allies. I was sure she would continue to sound the alarm bells on the very real vast right-wing conspiracy. After all, she was right-on with her warnings. She saw the handwriting on the walls of power and articulated how these right-wing corporatists were accumulating power. She had the righteous anger at the religious hypocrites and hate mongers who actually had her husband, a twice actually elected and a most capable president, impeached. I don't know if it is power that changes one so dramatically, but, in Hillary's case, she has become another weak voice in an ever growing ineffectual chorous of lame politicos. It's not only her tacit support for this illegal war, but, as this 'plantation' remark illustrates, she seems to go just so far and then retreats. She knew the press would cover her speech, which is rare enough for a democrat, so why not go full steam and speak truth to power? The platform was there, cameras rolling, where was that fierce fighter who stood up when her husband was in the crosshairs? I doubt she will run in 2008. It's not just the polling data. I think President Bill will realize just how polarizing she is and, with the stakes so high at this time in history, he will do all in his power to reelect her to the senate for a full term. At least, that is my fervent hope. Until, and unless, her passion returns and her tongue unties.

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Reasons why not?
Posted by: mendomama on Jan 26, 2006 9:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think there are plenty of them! Just as in the beginning comments, I am adamently against the idea of recent presidents reading like family royalty, rather than publicly elected candidates comprised "of the people". Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton would/should be an embarassment for the United States. Do we not have any other families to choose from?

For any truly progressive Democrat, Hillary is more a friend to the right, than to the left. The whole concept that she is adored by Democrats is ridiculous. Her campaign purse, maybe, but not her politics. She consistantly floats to the center, if not to the right - like anti-flag burning, and her "cheerleading" of the Administrations' incompetent and dishonest handling of Iraq.

If the DNC truly wants to know who they should run in '08, why not ask Democrats? And not the spineless windbags currently holding elected positions (excluding a few good ones), but THE PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY VOTE FOR THEM! Then, maybe they should try something new altogether - LISTENING! The DNC and the DCCC send me e-mails all the time asking me for money - why not my opinion?

Personally, I'd like to see a combo like Edwards/Obama. Just look at what Edwards has been doing since the '04 elections. He's dedicated himself to finding ways to end poverty in America. The 5,000,000 people that have recently joined the millions of others in poverty, just might find that commendable, ya think? And Obama is amazing. Both are intelligent, articlulate, moral (everything Bush isn't), and seem to have the cajones to stand up and tell it like it is.

Like most women, and a lot of men I know, I think it's high time we had a woman president. If they run a good one, I'd be thrilled to vote for her. But, Hillary is not the answer! Success for the Democrats in '08, isn't about whether or not we run a woman, it's about whether or not the candidates run on important issues, and actually have the record to back up their claims that these issues are important to them. To me, that's more important than their gender. Hillary could tell me she's for working-class America until she's blue in the face, but her record speaks for itself. If that's as good as the Dems can do in '08, then bring on a third party - 'cause I'm SOOO over it!

If Dems are determined to run Hillary in '08, not only should they start digging the grave, they might as well climb in.

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If Hillary is the candidate I'm going Green
Posted by: boiler_92 on Jan 26, 2006 9:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I swear, if Hillary is the nominee, I'm voting for the Green Party candidate or Kucinich and I'm never giving another dime to the Democrats.

My God, how delusional do you have to be to think Hillary has a snowball's chance in hell of winning?!

Personal feelings aside, if we went with Kerry because he was more "electable" than Dean, why would we EVER go with HC?

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ElectGore2008
Posted by: gore2008 on Jan 26, 2006 3:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes you are absolutely correct Arianna. Thank you very much Arianna. Al Gore will run in 2008 and win the white house in 2008 and Arianna might become chief of Staff or Secretary of State.
http;//www.electgore2008.com
http://www.runalgore.com

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WHAT ELECTION?
Posted by: magistre on Jan 28, 2006 5:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush will have the Supreme Court repeal Term Limitations and we will never have another election in this country.

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ms lee
Posted by: lee slaughter on Feb 1, 2006 3:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ms Huffington is correct. So is Ms Ivins....I WILL not vote for hillary, and neither will MOST people, red or blue, in Amerika. In case anyone has been living in a cave for the last several decades, WOMEN are the most hated group in amerika. Don't believe that? Spend 5 mins watching ANY of the corporate media outlets, thousands of examples spring to mind, terri schiavo, the whole question of WHO controls a woman's reproductive cycle, how often does a MAN rape/attack a woman or child (answer:every 3 seconds, according to our justice dept, if you believe ANYTHING those people say), who does the majority of childcare, housework, etc. Who makes 75 cents for every dollar a man makes? Oh Yeah.....We're ready for a female prez.......maybe if you've just arrived from pluto, but NOT in amerika today. Sorry.

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» RE: ms lee Posted by: KansasBob
» RE: ms lee Posted by: KansasBob
Gore, Fiengold, Kerry or Edwards are all a better choice
Posted by: leemiller38 on Feb 18, 2006 8:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary is a reasonably good senator, no question. But her Bill baggage, her Iraq war ambivalence, which is as kind as I can put it, makes her anathema to much of the progressive and anti-war base of the party.

Kerry is similarly damaged, having lost the last election by saying he would have still voted for the war after coming to realize he had been duped like the other politicos. He slso demonstrated why he like Bush was a C student. He didn't have an appealing coherent message and apparently can't stay on one. He did win 3 debates with the other C student which indicates to me that most Americans are brain dead for voting for the most inarticulate, inadequate candidate. Kerry is articulate and could win if kept on message. Kerry was also jinxed by the gay marriage issue (Mass court decision) coming into play at an inopportune time and bringing out the culture warriors.

Gore and Edwards are both populous candidates who have appeal. But Al Gore barely won (but lost) when he was a VP with a great economy. We all know that the world would be a much different and better place if he had been inaugurated.

Feingold is the best candidate from a progressive, and civil liberties perspective. Let us hope he can ace out Hillary in the primaries, and appeal to a broad group of Americans on the war, education, health care, and civil liberties, or the Dems will likely lose another one.

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So, whats the solution?
Posted by: KansasBob on May 31, 2006 8:21 PM   
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I couldn't agree more with the Hilllary Bashers. She and husband Bill have transformed "whore" into an androgenous term. But what is the solution? I don't have an answer. However, I do think progressives and so-called liberals have only themselves to blame for the collapse of American Democracy. Consider the Cindy Sheenhan debacle. Like all great American icons, she emerged from obscurity and became, albeit momentiarly, a contemporary symbol of the proverbial "Last Best Hope" ..........until the secterian left got ahold of her, and had her spouting irrelevant anti-Israel rhetoric she knew nothing about, dimishiing her to a mere curioisity, despite what a recent National article suggests.

Don't you folks get it. If the invasion of Iraq does not convince you that the two hundred year struggle of American Democracy towards towards those noble goals of liberty and justice has been hijacked, then nothing will. The corruption is systemic. Its not about electing Russ, or Hilllary, Big John and LIttle John, or Billy Boy. The cartel of professional mercentiaries and whores to which they belong--popularly known as the Democratic and REpublican Parties--is the problem, not the solution.

Before we are morally fit to adress issues of "Iraqi Freedom" or the nuances of the middle east and global warming, we must remember "the great task remaining before us" Abraham Lincoln so eloquently addressed at Gettysburg, and take heed of his admonition that our nation stand resolved "that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

Abraham Lincoln remains a modern Prophet. Democracy was, and remains, "the last best hope of earth." That is that burning task modern civilization--WE the people--face.

Agreed, Ralph Nader has absolutely no charisma. He's dull. He's boring. He's uninspiring. He's pandantic. But he is right.

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great sites
Posted by: Cartoon2 on Aug 4, 2006 4:04 AM   
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Posted by: BobBiblo on Aug 6, 2006 9:50 AM   
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