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Election Theft Emergency

By Terrence McNally, AlterNet. Posted January 27, 2006.


Mark Crispin Miller talks about how the right stole the 2004 presidential election -- and how they'll do it again unless we stop them.
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Election Theft Emergency

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For GOP voters, the 2004 presidential election was little short of miraculous: Behind in the Electoral College even on the afternoon of the vote, the Bush-Cheney ticket staged a stunning comeback. Usually reliable exit polls turned out to be wrong by an unprecedented 5 percent in swing states. Conservatives argued, and the media agreed, that "moral values" had made the difference.

In his latest book, Fooled Again: How The Right Stole The 2004 Election, And Why They'll Steal The Next One Too (Unless We Stop Them), Mark Crispin Miller argues that it wasn't moral values which swung the election -- it was theft.

TERRENCE McNALLY: You're a professor of media studies. According to your bio, you write about "film, television, propaganda, advertising and the culture industries …" Why did you write this book?

MARK CRISPIN MILLER: Out of a sense of civic emergency. I believe that "Fooled Again" makes the case quite persuasively that there is actually no convincing evidence that Bush and Cheney won re-election.

This is a civic story of the utmost importance. It has to do with the dire need for election reform in the United States. But it's also a story about the colossal failure of the American press to do precisely the kind of job that the framers had in mind when they wrote the First Amendment. What they had in mind was that the press would function as a reliable check on executive power. It would keep the people informed about what their government was up to, and it would keep them politically engaged in national debate.

The newspapers, as limited and defective as they were in the 18th century, did perform that function, and I believe they performed that function for much of our history. We now have a corporate media system that is not answerable to the people nor concerned about the people, but [is] in the service of its pay masters. And it is far too close to the government for the health of anything like a democratic system.

One of the points of "Fooled Again" is that this is a story of tremendous importance, as far as a democracy is concerned. Yet the press has for the most part ridiculed those who have come up with very solid evidence of fraud. They've been in the business less of talking about the situation than of preventing anybody else from talking about it. And this includes some of the progressive media as well. In fact, the most hostile reviews that I've received have been in Mother Jones and Salon.

TM: I read the transcript of you on Democracy Now! with Mark Hertsgaard, a progressive journalist who has been fairly dismissive of those questioning Bush's victory. By the end he seemed to be agreeing that everything should be more fully investigated.

I would think that the 2004 election story, if tracked and broken, would be huge for whoever breaks it. Any other thoughts about why it's so ignored?

MCM: We have to understand that for some decades the press has served basically an establishmentarian function. They have the reputation, and they certainly have the self-image, of being terribly skeptical, prone to disrespectful questions, probing dark matters that authority would just as soon have them leave alone. That's a very flattering view of the press but completely undeserved. The press will not deal with any story that goes beyond a particular scandal to cast doubt on the very viability of the entire system. The press in this country will studiously ignore any story that too violently rocks the boat, whose implications are too shattering.

This is not new. Watergate was a story that the press avoided for months and months. Only the Washington Post pursued that story; everybody else made fun of it. Now we look back on Watergate with tremendous nostalgia and self-congratulation, telling ourselves the press saved the system. But since Watergate the press has preferred to deal with meaningless and trivial scandals like the Clinton scandals. They will not talk about 9/11, they will not talk about the theft of the last three elections.

TM: You also include the 2002 congressional election. That one also broke too consistently against predictions?

MCM: That's exactly right. In Colorado, in Minnesota, in Georgia, and in a couple of other states -- there was what we might call "Diebold magic" everywhere. In all these states, you had far-right-wing politicians predicted to lose by pre-election newspaper polls and by exit polls, and all of them won.

TM: Why do you believe the two successive Democratic candidates have given in so easily?

MCM: I think basically Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry this last time are far too concerned with establishment opinion, far too worried that they'll seem to be sore losers, conspiracy theorists, etc. They have therefore refused to go public with what they actually believe. Kerry told me personally on October 28th at a fundraising party that he believes the election was probably stolen.

TM: He then disavowed that in the press, didn't he?

MCM: Exactly -- a few hours after the story broke. The Democratic Party is as much a part of the problem as the Republican Party.

TM: Are there exceptions among the ranks of mainstream politicians? I think of Barbara Boxer and John Conyers. Any others?

MCM: Tom Daschle has told me he thinks very highly of the book and has given me permission to quote him to that effect. Stephanie Tubbs Jones, Rush Holt. There are growing numbers of Democratic politicians who are willing to take the risks of facing the truth on this issue.

Let's put it less dogmatically. All right, maybe I haven't proven that the election was stolen, but I am completely confident that I've provided ample grounds for a serious investigation of what went on last year. It seems to me that any Democrat who refuses to even go for that kind of inquiry is really failing his or her constituency.

TM: -- and failing the voters. As a citizen, it bothers me that we leave it to a Gore or a Kerry, who's thinking about his future reputation or his future career, to stage the protest. I don't care about their careers. I care about my vote getting counted or discounted.

What's the statement that you're willing to make in "Fooled Again" about the 2004 election: stolen? worthy of investigation? evidence clearly shows in six states …?

MCM: The evidence in Ohio, as anyone who followed the story knows, is copious. Bush allegedly won that state by 118,000 votes. As I point out -- and this part of the book is largely based on John Conyers' report to the House Judiciary Committee -- the various stratagems, tricks and tactics used to prevent people from registering, to prevent them from voting, to throw away provisional ballots -- all these add up to a number far greater than 118,000.

TM:: That's news to me. Many people have said, yes, there were long lines, yes, there was disproportionate distribution of voting machines, yes, there was trouble with provisional ballots, yes, there was intimidation -- but the margin was 120,000. You're saying that they add up to over 120,000?

MCM: Oh easily, easily. It was in the urban parts of Ohio that most of this stuff went down. All the urban centers in Ohio were Democratic. If people want to get a strong sense of what was happening at the grassroots level coast to coast last year, go to a website called the Election Incident Reporting System, EIRS. Then type in the name of a state or a county, and you'll get a transcript of all the complaints that were lodged that day by people who called 1-866-MY-VOTE.

Now a lot of them couldn't get through because it was understaffed, but those who did get through left messages. You can find copious firsthand evidence of what the average person had to go through to try to vote against Bush. This didn't happen only in Ohio. Electronic touchscreen machines flipped Kerry votes into Bush votes in at least 11 states.

TM: You say similar practices (and occasionally worse ones) were applied in several other key states -- Florida, Oregon, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and even New York?

MCM: In New Mexico, for example, we're told that Bush won by some 7,000 votes. We know of over 17,000 Democratic voters who were unable to cast a vote for president because the touchscreen machines in their districts refused to record a vote for president.

These 17,000-plus New Mexicans turned out to vote in Democratic areas, and they didn't record a vote for president. Seventeen thousand is 10,000 more than 7,000. That glitch alone can account for the ostensible victory margin of Bush over Kerry in New Mexico. Greg Palast's new book will have a whole chapter on New Mexico. It's hair-raising stuff, and we haven't heard a word about it. The same kind of thing happened in Iowa, where Bush supposedly won by under 10,000 votes.

Tom Daschle was supposedly beaten in South Dakota by 4,500 votes. There was so much chicanery going on there, that it's easy to argue that John Thunes should not have won. I know Daschle believes he was robbed.

This isn't only a matter of the White House, it's also a matter of the Congress. I don't believe that this government represents the people of this country. The people of this country, however frightened some of them may be by terrorism, are essentially not theocratically inclined. They don't want a Christian republic. They were not happy with the way the government dealt with the Terry Schiavo case. Americans basically believe in the American system of government. Checks and balances, the separation of church and state.

The press kept telling us after the election that a huge outpouring of religious voters account for Bush's miraculous victory. Well that's nothing more than a talking point that the religious right itself put out after the election. There is no statistical evidence whatsoever that there was any increase in the number of religious voters.

TM: The big thing that people seized on was one particular exit poll in which people, when given a choice of a few things, said moral values was the No. 1 reason for their vote. More people answered moral values in 1996 and in 2000 than in 2004. There was actually a drop in the number of people who attributed their vote to moral values in 2004, not a rise.

Let me check a couple of things with you. I've heard that exit polls were most inaccurate -- by a big margin -- in those areas that used electronic voting machines with no paper trail. True?

MCM: That's basically true, and it was particularly noticeable in five swing states. There's a lot of stuff floating around out there in cyberspace about the exit polls. The question of the exit polls has been very badly muddied by a lot of disingenuous argument. Now a lot of people think that it's not a reliable gauge, it doesn't tell us anything. That's actually the result of propaganda obfuscation. The exit polls' sudden divergence, sudden wrongness in these five states is really a remarkable deviation from the norm.

The guy doing the best work on that particular issue is a statistician at the University of Pennsylvania named Steve Freeman, who will have a book coming out in a few months primarily about the exit poll question.

Bogus reasons for why the exit polls were so wrong include the reluctant responder argument, which holds that Bush voters were strangely reluctant to tell exit pollsters how they voted. Well, Freeman has read the raw data at precinct level and has discovered that, as a matter of fact, if anyone showed a greater reluctance to come forward and say honestly who they voted for when confronted with an exit pollster, it was actually the Democrats. There's no evidence of any numerical kind that can support the view that somehow Republicans wouldn't fess up.

TM: I would assume that the very ones being referred to as reluctant are the ones who would be proud to say they voted for God's candidate.

MCM: One of the weirdest things about this whole election business is that one of the two parties has, for over the last year and longer, been vociferously complaining about the dangers of election fraud, and that's the Republican party.

TM: Thus the ID card in Georgia, right?

MCM: Exactly. They're the ones who are always screaming about Democratic fraud, but the Republicans in this last race were really the only ones engaging in election fraud.

This has to do with the peculiarly paranoid quality of the crusading mindset. I believe this theft was to a great extent carried out thanks to a kind of crusader mentality. I've got plenty of evidence in the book that the religious right played an enormously large role in the theft of the election last year.

TM: I think first of Diebold, I think of the Ken Blackwells or the Kathryn Harrises. How does the religious right itself play a role beyond mobilizing its own troops?

MCM: That mobilization is significant when you consider that a lot of those troops have actually become embedded inside the election system.

TM: Local polling officials, that sort of thing?

MCM: One Democratic election judge tried to observe the vote count in Pima County, Arizona. A roomful of polling personnel who all belonged to the same evangelical church in the area started to call him a liberal demon, a liberal scum.

TM: When you talk about a crusader mentality, you basically mean that if you do not support my candidate you are an infidel -- and the ends justify the means?

MCM: Precisely. See, all these crimes that I attest to in the book were committed with impunity by people who regard their political adversaries as demons. And that's not an exaggeration. You know, this government is to a great extent dominated by people who have that metaphysical view of the current political situation.

It is a very serious mistake I believe to think that all of this is happening only because of the excessive greed of certain corporate powers. That greed is decisive It played an enormous role. There is no question about it. But it could not have succeeded without the vigorous grassroots assistance of a lot of people who are religious true believers. And I think that they include the likes of Tom DeLay and others.

TM: I've heard that almost all irregularities worked in Bush's favor. True?

MCM: Absolutely true. I have not yet heard of a single example of a touchscreen voting machine flipping a Bush vote into a Kerry vote. This does not mean it never happened. I'm just saying I haven't heard about it if it has.

TM: I've read that in New Hampshire, Ralph Nader's Green Party campaign paid for an actual recount. They picked the precincts they thought were suspicious, and the hand recount confirmed the actual vote totals and showed that the exit polls were, in fact, wrong. What do you say to that?

MCM: Well, the recount that they paid for found no evidence of fraud in that particular case.

TM: It confirmed the hand recount, showing that the exit polls were in fact wrong. So how does that fit your analysis of the whole scheme?

MCM: The only thing one can say about that with any scientific certainty is that the particular hand count that they carried out did not reveal any evidence of fraud. That does not mean that no fraud was committed. This is a very fine point, but when we're dealing with questions of electoral honesty and accuracy, I think we have the right to make fine points. The distinction must be made -- that particular hand count involved a sample, that sample revealed no fraud, but that does not mean that we can then sit back and say, well, OK, so the exit polls were wrong.

TM: To the question "What is the point of revisiting the last election?" you point out that there has never been a great reform that was not driven by a major scandal. Do you believe that true election reform is not going to happen until the people and the media finally wake up to this?

MCM: I think it's going to depend on the people. It's going to depend on the people simply and irresistibly insisting that the media finally deal with this subject. That's why I wrote the book.

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Interviewer Terrence McNally hosts Free Forum on KPFK 90.7FM, Los Angeles (streaming at kpfk.org).

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Remember when WELLSTONE WAS MURDERED???
Posted by: pixiequix on Jan 27, 2006 1:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The friday before that election is when Cheney and his gang of soulless thugs descended on Minnesota & Paul Wellstone- including his wife & daughter, along with my boyfriend and another booster who was working on Paul's campaign. I found out later that Teddy Kennedy was supposed to have joined Paul on the flight that took their lives...
How the fuck many more times can we just watch this happen and let these murdering bastards get away with this!!!!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Getting Away With It Posted by: jakrabit
» Look for Judge Stevens next Posted by: ng1944
» Yes. Posted by: HeidiLockwood
Steal This Democracy
Posted by: Tom Degan on Jan 27, 2006 2:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well of course these lying bastards stole the 2004 elections. They allowed this newly designed computerized polling machine to be used in Ohio that didn't leave a paper trail that was designed by repulican supporter. They stole the 2000 election by taking 57,000 black people off of the voting rolls. This is what they used to call "a coup". Due to the nature of technology it's alot more subtle these days. Soldiers in the streets and tanks pointed at the Town Hall are soooo twentieth century. A simple re-programming of a cumputer program or two will do the trick. This along with a corporatized media is all you need.

But I havn't lost hope. As dumbed down as the American electorate have become in the last twenty-five years, they're not totally stupid (I think). I can see the signs that they are finally starting to awaken from the right wing coma they've been sleeping under since 1980. By the end of the year they'll have had it. But it's not a simple case of putting the democrats back in power. The democrats (and I'm seriously thinking of becoming one again) have got to make some serious changes in the primary season by throwing out the pandering, worthless trash (Hi, Hillary!) who've been dragging that once great party, the party of Franklin D. Roosevelt, into the idealogical sewer.

Let's get moving, folks. If these murderous bastards (read: rpublican party) are able to reatain control of both houses of congress in November our republic is finished. And PLEASE remember that I'm not talking about the average registered republican. Most are good, decent if misguided people. I'm talking about the professional politicians and the two-footed maggots employed by the Repulican National Comittee. They're the ones who are trying to destroy our country.

Let's not get fooled again!

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
tomdegan@frontiernet.net

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» RE: Steal This Democracy Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: Steal This Democracy Posted by: Lincoln fan
Voting ID and Real ID Act
Posted by: anothername on Jan 27, 2006 2:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As I have written about identity cards and how Americans can lose their identities very easily, I have begun to worry about a link between the Help America Vote Act and the Real ID Act.

The ID requirement for voting was added to HAVA and the Real ID Act was included in legislation either during conference committee or even after the committee finished reaching comprise between the House and Senate versions of legislation. Little pockets of objection and worry have popped up across the nation, but the progressive leaders and news media have only paid attention to a few hot button examples, such as arguing the Georgia ID to vote law is a poll tax on the poor and the Real ID Act is only a problem for immigrants.

Look at how much documentation is required to obtain an ID, and it is only going to get worse. People who move often, people who do not have scores of documentation about their addresses, and people who do not have their identities exactly as they have their names (not out of deceit but out of a necessity to create a unique identity when names are very similar or identical). I am becoming more and more convinced that the Real ID Act, the current excessive proof to obtain state ID, and the requirement for voting IDs are linked.

Yes, we need to pay attention to electronic voting machine issues, but election theft is far more complex and far more insidious than just privately-held code for the machines.

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Black Box Voting!
Posted by: Ottomatic on Jan 27, 2006 3:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Without accountability there is no election.
It is a selection by Corporate Special Interest.”
Black Box Voting!
By William Eon
“It matters little who votes, it’s those that count the votes that matter.”
Joseph Stalin
Those who control the Ballot Box, decide the election.
There is a voting machine available that prints two receipts!
One for you and one for the vote counter!
Why would we buy anything less?
Who wants to disenfranchise you?
The same people who buy these broken machines, that’s who!
Today in this the modern 21st Century!
Defective voting machines are being sold!
These machines are sold by Corporations that have a vested interest in the outcome of the elections. When their Corporate Crony wins?
He will buy more of their Expensive Black Boxes!
Only a politician that wants to control the vote would buy a defective machine.
The proof is in the pudding.
Using defective voting machines means: you have defective election.
These machines were built defective intentionally.
Anyone with the secret source code can hack into these machines from a remote location and change the elections outcome!
They can change, modify or switch the vote tallies!
Every time I go to an ATM I get a receipt!
It shows how much money I took out!
If the Bank stole $10 from you, you would go thru the roof and say
“Here’s my receipt!”
How much is your vote worth?
If we can send a man to the moon!
We can surely make a voting machine that prints a receipt!
In fact they have it already.
Let’s buy it!
Let’s use it.
Trash these Voodoo Black Boxes.
Where is the accountability?
Where is my receipt? Where is the paper trail? Every American’s right to vote must be upheld and every vote must be counted!
Only then we will live in a free society. Let’s have free elections here, first!
It’s treasonous that in America, only some people get to vote!
And it‘s a crime that special interest counts them.
Great system if you’re a NAZI!

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» RE: Black Box Voting! Posted by: ng1944
» RE: Black Box Voting! Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Black Box Voting! Posted by: Glennk1949
» RE: Black Box Voting! Posted by: patvic1405
Media deception
Posted by: kgs1947 on Jan 27, 2006 3:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a recent interview conducted by McLehrer with Harry Reid (Demo head), Reid stated that Bush had gone against the constitution in spying on Americans and in the same breath said that it was too soon to conduct impeachment proceedings against Bush. McLehrer left the obvious contradiction unchallanged. Now, not only the media conglomerates have the power, but NPR is joining in the deception and lies of this current administration. What's this country's journalists coming to? Is there any hope? We now have no Democratic or Independent leadership and no media to provide accurate information and/or challenges to the status quo (except AlterNet).

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» RE: Media deception Posted by: gonzoskismet
» RE: Media deception Posted by: badkitty53
» RE: Media deception Posted by: dontletfactsgetintheway
» RE: Media deception Posted by: dontletfactsgetintheway
The "Progressive Media" needs to wake up.
Posted by: martymartin on Jan 27, 2006 3:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"One of the points of "Fooled Again" is that this is a story of tremendous importance, as far as a democracy is concerned. Yet the press has for the most part ridiculed those who have come up with very solid evidence of fraud. They've been in the business less of talking about the situation than of preventing anybody else from talking about it. And this includes some of the progressive media as well. In fact, the most hostile reviews that I've received have been in Mother Jones and Salon."

Point well taken – indeed, another apologist for the Bush Administration’s patently false official story line has to do with the events of September 11, 2001. A recent article from In These Times admonishes the Progressive Press to eschew consideration of credible dissenting views regarding 9/11.

Fortunately, motivated concerned readers can still unearth this vital information. But even our nominally “progressive” organs of public communication appear impaired by the official zeitgeist.

911TrueStory.com has the smoking gun evidence that will catalyze a rational discussion of events of that fateful day.

CrisisPapers.org has a very decent collection of information
on the topic of election fraud.

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David Cobb and the Green Party led the recount effort in Ohio
Posted by: dnorthrop on Jan 27, 2006 4:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...something the author and interviewer seemed to miss. Cobb, along with the Libertarians paid for a recount in Ohio. Kerry, for all of his bluster about having battallions of lawyers waiting to defend the election, sat back and did nothing.

So, if you actually care about your right to vote, and want a political party to fight for it, vote Green Party.

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paper
Posted by: crusty on Jan 27, 2006 5:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ballots ....work...

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» RE: paper Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: paper Posted by: crusty
» RE: paper Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: paper Posted by: crusty
» RE: paper Posted by: cold2touch
Paper and Pencil
Posted by: sln70 on Jan 27, 2006 5:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm Canadian. We still use a paper and pencil for our process. We usually finish counting all districts in one night. Within hours, in fact. We don't suspect any election rigging here.

I know you have a much larger population... but that shouldn't matter. Just have more people hired to count.

You should not demand better machines. You should demand paper ballots, pencils, and lots of counters working at every polling station.

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» RE: Paper and Pencil Posted by: BobS
» RE: Paper and Pencil Posted by: Glennk1949
» RE: Paper and Pencil Posted by: sln70
» RE: Paper and Pencil Posted by: BobR
» RE: Paper and Pencil Posted by: blueneck
» RE: Paper and Pencil Posted by: Rod from Canada
OK. Here is a solution ...
Posted by: gar on Jan 27, 2006 5:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now let me say up front that I am a law abiding, straight-shooting, upright citizen :-} who would never, never do anything illegal, so this is all hypothytical - OK, that's my disclaimer.

Now hypothetically speaking, lets say it is really easy to hack into electronic voting machines and electronic counting machines. If that is true, and if that is how the Repuglicans stole the last few elections, then folks, whatever a Republican can do, a Democrat can do better - especially when it comes to demon technology. What is to stop a Democrat from hacking those machines on election day and changing those votes back to what they were originally, or maybe adding a few more here and there?

Now let me say again that I'm not advocating this. I'm just throwing it out as a hypothetical question. If the machines can be hacked, why can't the hacker be a Democrat? Just asking.

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» RE: OK. Here is a solution ... Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: OK. Here is a solution ... Posted by: xs10shal
» RE: OK. Here is a solution ... Posted by: gonzoskismet
» RE: OK. Here is a solution ... Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: OK. Here is a solution ... Posted by: NotConvinced
Go back to paper
Posted by: ng1944 on Jan 27, 2006 5:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, We must go back to paper and pencil.
The software for voting machines can be easy
manipulated even by beginner programmer.
Especialy, when no one has acces to code but
Diebold people.
The election is going to be stolen as last 2 elections.
This is why these thugs are pushing for machine voting

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» RE: Go back to paper Posted by: Glennk1949
One more site
Posted by: anothername on Jan 27, 2006 5:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For an edited issue board that identifies many voting issues, including the EAC, the HAVA, electronic voting, how the media reports votes, and more, go to www.maggiefeld.com/id20.html.

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What we need is leadership, not more politicians
Posted by: Patti on Jan 27, 2006 6:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When John Kerry walked away from an obviously rigged election and left more than 50% of the voters without hope and without a voice, he sealed the fate of our country for decades to come. What the country needed then and needs today is someone who will stand up and fight for democracy-not cave in to the Rove led takeover of our country. Kerry and Gore were too concerned about their "futures" to be concerned about the absolute state of hopelessness that they left each and everyone of the people who voted for them in when they failed to stand up to a system riddled with corruption and fraud. If neither one of them thought that it was worth the fight then it is no wonder that we are filled with apathy today. What we are in dire need of is someone, anyone who is mad enough to stand up and kick some ass, forgetting about moderation and political correctness. That would be a LEADER worth following. Enough is enough.

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It goes Deeper
Posted by: Andie927 on Jan 27, 2006 6:09 AM   
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Working with Florida Fair Elections, we stopped one county in Florida from being forced into buying electronic voting machines from Diabold, under the guise of meeting HAVA Disability Standards.

I spent hours and weeks, doing research. Going from one lead to the next. All my notes are packed away now. Basically if you follow it thru, you come down to 'Who teaches, and holds the classes for continuing ed. for Superv. of Elections? Who certifies the voting equipment? Who oversees both of these functions?

Follow it thru to find those answers and everything else makes sense! NOT GOOD SENSE! It's all owned and run by two brothers, one with Diabold, and the other with ES&S!

The best solution I came up with was a double voting system. One or two major votes on the ballot, would be voted on twice, first the normal way, then with a medium that can be counted fast and easy. Like money sized slips, or casino chips, the two votes have to balance at the end.

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» RE: It goes Deeper Posted by: douglashoyt
Won't Get Fooled Again
Posted by: pball on Jan 27, 2006 6:13 AM   
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Always remember, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
-----------------------------------
We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

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» RE: Won't Get Fooled Again Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: Won't Get Fooled Again Posted by: Glennk1949
Crooks
Posted by: Ming on Jan 27, 2006 6:14 AM   
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I fear we are lost. We have been fighting the "war" on crime since time began and we haven't done much but win a few battles. The war rages on. Human nature being what it is, the crooks in the White House and Congress will continue to break the law and get away with it no matter what us decent folks do. It's not just a GOP thing. All political parties are corrupted by their very nature. Even the media, which is now owned by 4 or 5 giant corporations is ineffectual because they are part of the problem. News enables our leaders by peddling soft stories that are pre-approved at the highest levels. Greed and power corrupt all. If you don't like it bend over, stick your head between your legs, and kiss your ass goodbye.

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» RE: Crooks Posted by: Glennk1949
More more more
Posted by: saywhat? on Jan 27, 2006 6:16 AM   
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This was and IS such an important issue, yet even the "nation' dragged its feet on this when it happen. Hurrah for Miller! Clean up this electoral process so we can hear the voice of the people. More LOUD information on this issue!!!! drown out the main stream media with reporting like this. let the people vote - damn it! more more more.

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If computers, then paper receipt
Posted by: brunowe on Jan 27, 2006 6:41 AM   
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I can't think of any reason why, if one is going to use touchscreens, that a paper printout can't be given. There should be one for the voter and one for the vote counters, so they can do a random audit.

Hell, any ATM machine can do that! There also needs to be paper/pen backup in case the touch screen malfunctions.

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» Of course it would be easy! Posted by: GreenLibbie
Another theory
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Jan 27, 2006 6:46 AM   
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TM: Why do you believe the two successive Democratic candidates have given in so easily?

MCM: I think basically Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry this last time are far too concerned with establishment opinion.----- They have therefore refused to go public with what they actually believe. Kerry told me personally on October 28th at a fundraising party that he believes the election was probably stolen.


It is more likely that the party was more concerned with establishment money than that Gore and Kerry were concerned with establishment opinion.

TM: He then disavowed that in the press, didn't he?

MCM: Exactly -- a few hours after the story broke. The Democratic Party is as much a part of the problem as the Republican Party.


This is another way of saying that Kerry was following the party line. It was a party decision to deny the story, not a personal decision.

If you believe that the elections were stolen, and that the Democrats acquiesced, how can you not believe that both parties are bought and paid for by the establishment?

It follows then that both parties work for the interests of the corporatocracy and not in the interests of the voters. Our votes only choose which party will serve the corporate establishment's interest.

To help make "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" a reality, join The Lincoln Initiative. We are a non-partisan grassroots movement, not an organization. Our one issue is that all other issues be settled in the best interests of the majority. Click on join now

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» RE: Another theory Posted by: pixiequix
» RE: Another theory Posted by: Lincoln fan
Ohio Dem
Posted by: taylor4004 on Jan 27, 2006 6:50 AM   
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Except that in Ohio there weren't many counties that used the Diebold touchscreen system: Not Cuyahoga (Cleveland), the biggest democratic county, not Franklin (Columbus), not Lucas (Toledo). The touch screens were only used in a few of the smaller counties.

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Hamas Election
Posted by: Casey Burns on Jan 27, 2006 7:27 AM   
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One thing is certain about yesterdays democratic victory by Hamas in Palestine. Diebold Voting Machines were not involved. There is a lesson for Americans in there somewhere!

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» RE: Hamas Election Posted by: sln70
» RE: Hamas Election Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Hamas Election Posted by: GreenLibbie
Banking on Florida and Ohio alone won't help even if it helps cut a few corners.
Posted by: SDres11 on Jan 27, 2006 7:55 AM   
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Don't forget the small states in the Northeast and the midwest. Most of those states were hardly touched by either party but it doesn't mean they were clean either. If WY could get 105% voter turnout with nobody questioning it, irregular voting problems in SD when it comes to Tom Daschle but not John Kerry, and others, I say it's time the Democrats get their butts off Fauxnews, CNN, MSNBC, etc ... and actually get to work on real voting reform state after state if they're going to win.

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Confirmation bias
Posted by: IronNose on Jan 27, 2006 8:04 AM   
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I sense a certain underlying psychology process among those who dismiss any possibility of election fraud. I don't know if confirmation bias is the right term, but it boils down to this: some people tend to dismiss any information, even if it is true, that does not confirm their deeply held beliefs, in this case, beliefs about the absolute perfection of American democracy. It is a protective mechanism - the thought that our elections are systemically corrupt is painful, and therefore must be internally denied. I see the same process at work in other areas - it manifests as a general hostility to legitimate questions regarding 9/11, pre-war intelligence, the economic motivations behind the war, public corruption, etc., etc.

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» RE: Confirmation bias Posted by: Glennk1949
» RE: Confirmation bias Posted by: xs10shal
Ah, paper!
Posted by: Plexius on Jan 27, 2006 8:05 AM   
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I was very tempted by the idea of Back to Paper, but then I realized that countless elections in third world countries (where paper is used extensively) have been stolen. Fake ballots are printed and stuffed into boxes, boxes are opened and substitutes inserted, etc. The only real protection from fraud is a bunch of objective observers (preferably from some other country) meticulously watching and counting. Also, the more electronicized voting becomes, the more remote manipulation is viable. Hell, I'm sure some electronic genius in a van or nearby room could affect electronic voting machines by remote control (and maybe some planted bugs).

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» RE: Ah, paper! Posted by: AlienSlave
"It's over, folks. . ."
Posted by: monkeywrench on Jan 27, 2006 8:08 AM   
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From the article:
"The Democratic Party is as much a part of the problem as the Republican Party."
––Yes they are, for the reason that too many of them in Washington are "on the take" from their corporate masters, just like their Repuglican counterparts.

On the investigation of voting fraud in New Hampshire by the Green Party:
––If the recount was of ballots from electronic voting machines that "flipped" for Bush, or the results of tabulation computers, the recount would show no fraud, because the original fraud was done at the source, the voting machine, or at the tabulation computer – which Bev Harris/Black Box Voting has shown to be almost laughably easy to be hacked and manipulated – even by a chimpanzee. . .or even by a neocon (yes, she taught a chimp to do it!). In both cases, no evidence of tampering would remain.

What if the facts revealed in this book are accurate and the bought-and-paid-for-media refuses to inform the people?
––Then it's over, folks. . .get ready to prostrate yourselves for the either the New American Corporatocracy or the New American Taliban.

Remember Stalin's little truism: It's not who votes that matters; it's who COUNTS the votes.

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» RE: "It's over, folks. . ." Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: "It's over, folks. . ." Posted by: toot sweet
Questions
Posted by: bdcbryan@hotmail.com on Jan 27, 2006 8:20 AM   
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Just so I am clear in my understandig of this debate. If John Kerry had won the last election would there still be a case for election fraud? Or does it only apply when your party doesn't win? Would any of you still want investigations and election reform if Kerry won? Let's suppose that a democrate wins in 2008 - does that mean the system works and has worked? I guess I am tyring to understand the OBJECTIVE qualifiers that constitute a "stolen election".

I am not saying there wasn't fraud - maybe there was to some degree and maybe it occured on both sides. Maybe not. I have no idea... Maybe it has occured in past elections too. Maybe the whole "election" has just been staged for the last 50 years or more and our votes actually mean nothing! Does anyone really know what goes on in our government?

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» RE: Questions Posted by: InfinityDog
» RE: Questions Posted by: sln70
» RE: Questions Posted by: bdcbryan@hotmail.com
» RE: Questions Posted by: BobR
» RE: Questions Posted by: Glennk1949
» RE: Questions Posted by: pacto
» RE: Questions Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Questions Posted by: sln70
» RE: Questions Posted by: singingarc
» RE: Questions Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Questions Posted by: sln70
» RE: Questions Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Questions Posted by: sln70
» RE: Questions Posted by: crz53
» RE: Questions Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Questions Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Questions Posted by: xs10shal
» Not if Hillary wins... Posted by: GreenLibbie
Hawking books? A progressive theme?
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jan 27, 2006 9:54 AM   
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In two days, there have been three articles (more or less) urging the readership to go out and buy choice "progressive" books. "Choice" progressive books seem to be clearly defined as those Don Hazen likes--the author's within that particular good ol' boy network.

Why didn't the dems win in '06? They ran an unelectable candidate against a sitting president who has done a fairly poor job with a great number of his policies. And, unfortunately, when you run an unelectable candidate, the end result isn't that hard to guess--you get more of the same.

The fact that Kerry garnered 47% of the vote was a testament to how p.o.'d people were at Bush. Wouldn't it have been interesting had the dems chosen to run someone who wasn't a carbon copy? Well, except for the speeches Kerry gave denouncing our military people. GW didn't like war, so he (pretty much) got Daddy to get him out of it. Kerry didn't like war, so he (pretty much) pissed on our people in uniform--his former shipmates. Kerry's own words--in his own voice--made it impossible for me to vote for him. Ghengis Kahn, indeed. The Dean Scream didn't help the overall emerging picture--an out-of-control madhouse, with the best-concealed biggest nut well prepared to accept second place in the ensuing presidential election.

Why didn't the dems win? Two reasons:

1) It's the platform.

2) It's the candidate.

Hope they find someone electable in '08. Sadly, it's looking like Mrs. Clinton--a candidate who will try to ride a pig into power. The backlash votes (maybe half? one quarter? of the '04 Kerry base?) against Bush may not be there when Bush isn't running.

Hilary v. Condi? I'll probably cast my vote "against" both of them--for the Constitutional or Libertarian candidate. I'll absolutely vote against Mary Landrieu (a card carrying member of the good ol' boy network). Again.

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» ^ Posted by: decembrist
» RE: ^ Posted by: ABetterFuture
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Posted by: markusmark on Jan 27, 2006 10:09 AM   
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To solve the issues over Diebold, etc., the administration (no, not this f........g administration, the next one) should direct the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) (a government entity in DoCommerce) to create security standards for electronic voting machines. And, unless a company's e-voting machines are certified by NIST, they can't be used in the good old USA.
www.nist.gov.
Peace!
Mark
"Truth never damages a cause that is just." - Mahatma Gandhi

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rover
Posted by: Roverton on Jan 27, 2006 12:45 PM   
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Who's keeping an eye on those who keep an eye on these things.

Just people, every last one of 'em.

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fool me once, shame on you. fool me several times, I just learn to accept it.
Posted by: antiapathy on Jan 27, 2006 1:29 PM   
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you'd think we would have learned our lesson after y2k. but that is assuming that Americans care about this kind of thing. If you want to see Americans up in arms, you should find hard evidence of election fraud in the American Idol contest. There would be riots galore.

The corporatocracy has trained us not to care about politics, or social justice, environmental issues, labor, or pretty much anything that could hurt their bottom line. And we keep buying what they're sellin. I don't think there will be any reform, let alone revolution, until we can wake up the masses. Please let me know when someone figures out how to do that.

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THIS IS FRIGHTENING BEYOND BELIEF
Posted by: krose on Jan 27, 2006 3:03 PM   
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IT IS TIME TO START MARCHING IN THE STREETS!

WHY ARE WE SO COMPLACENT? WHEN DO WE START TO DO SOMETHING? WHEN DO WE BECOME LIKE THE PEOPLE OF THE UKRAINE?!!!!!!!!!!!

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rover
Posted by: Roverton on Jan 27, 2006 3:35 PM   
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The comfortable hypnosis of what we call being sensible.

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When the game is rigged.
Posted by: coyote on Jan 27, 2006 5:41 PM   
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At what point do we start "voting" from the rooftops?

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rover
Posted by: Roverton on Jan 27, 2006 7:29 PM   
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Whose solution to this voting scam hasn't been considered-and-countered by this administration's think-tanks already?

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Yes - false research presented as "fact"
Posted by: jimlup on Jan 27, 2006 8:06 PM   
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I researched this one to find out how much was known by other sources. Anyone who raised the Wellstone crash was dismissed and marginalized. This was true in both the mainstream and alternative press. I then went to some technical information about the crash and some alleged "expert opinion". It was poorly written and techinically incomplete at best. The conclusion was the expected one - anyone who questioned the "official" explaination was a crazed conspiracy theorist. The conclusion of the "expert" was that the crash was an accident. Unfortunately, several of the points in the article actually begged the question more than the original crash information.

I do strongly suspect that the Wellstone crash was murder. I believe that statistically the chances of the congressional crashes we have seen are essentially zero.

The dark forces will win these for now but those of us who know must do everything we can to keep the information open. Even if it is no where else but "blog space".

Peace and Hope!

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GOP has achieved dream of American communism
Posted by: Uranus on Jan 27, 2006 8:42 PM   
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Republicans want more than to win elections. They want to be the ruling party forever. They don't want to defeat the opposition, they want to exterminate it. Take my quick junior high civics quiz: what do you call rule by one party, where elections are a sham or nonexistent? You call that communism. Although the term fascism is bandied about recently, what republicans really represent is communism. Republican politicians are communists, and their supporters are communists. See them for what they are, and call them what they are.

If you have any doubts, read the definitive article written by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman titled, "With New Legislation, Ohio Republicans Plan Holiday Burial for American Democracy," at www.freepress.org.

And don't be afraid to call a pug a communist! He/she isn't afraid of exterminating YOU.

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paper?
Posted by: agitatur on Jan 27, 2006 9:48 PM   
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Ah, come on you guys! This is a serious thread with serious implications for us all, and all you're doing it playing verbal grab-ass!

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First hand witness.
Posted by: Slowburn on Jan 28, 2006 7:03 AM   
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Being physically active in your future is the only thing that gives you the right to bitch. I have volunteered to work elections for thirty years, and i have never seen things happening like what i witnessed the last four election cycles.
The book in point is uncanny. It is a documented fact (D.F.) that the GOP on the local level here incessantly pushed the use of this machine. (D.F.) that the GOP had work shops for a year before the election to educate poll workers (by invitation only and nine times out of ten at a church that would have a poll). (D.F.) that those same instructors(not election officials) had overriding portable software and access to any and all polls.
(D.F) That half if not more of the working people that had registered to vote did not because they were told after they registered in the poll books that there would be a four hour wait to vote so they simply walked because they did not want to lose their jobs. it was very conspicuous that GOP neighborhoods had plenty of these machines (diebolds) and poorer demo. leaning working class neighborhoods did not.
The crusader mentality is absolutely true. church groups used poll books to target demos. in my area for conversion/saving. they were at my door every Sunday morning telling me that if i voted for any demo. that i was voting for the devil. they did not stop until i told them that world domination was evil incarnate.
But there was one thing that i did witness that warmed my heart and gives me hope. at one poll i noticed someone raising holy hell it was this little black lady at least eighty standing at one of these machines telling these poll workers that they were not going to steal her vote. it seems that she had voted a strait demo ticket and when she pushed cast vote it showed a vote for bush and she was not walking away until she knew that her vote would be counted for Kerry.
It was and is the belief of the evangelical fanatics that it is their moral obligation to bring about the end of times by hook or by crook and they have succeeded. my worry is that what they want and what they get will be two very different things. It is the fire of spirit that i witnessed from this little lady that gives me hope in the future and i pray that fire in her sweeps this nation. spread it every chance u get before these fanatical fundamentalists here at home and abroad drag this world into a true end of times. i would swear to these facts in court.

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» RE: First hand witness. Posted by: mwildfire
Statistical Analysis Shows Vote Miscounts
Posted by: jnuu on Jan 28, 2006 7:39 AM   
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2004 Kerry/Bush Election
Statistical Analysis of Ohio Exit Polls By Precinct Shows Vote Miscounts

The National Exit Polls for the 2004 election showed John Kerry winning by 3.0% of the vote. The vote tabulation showed George Bush winning by 2.5%. Unless there was unexplained error in the polling protocol or vote miscounts, there is less than one in a million chance of this large a difference occurring due to random sampling error.

When Ohio precinct vote counts and exit poll results are compared, we find even more interesting, and troubling results.

Ron Baiman and Kathy Dopp are the first known statistician and mathematician to release a valid scientific analysis of the 2004 Ohio exit poll data. They see strong evidence of outcome-altering vote miscounts in the data. It is available on electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/OH/Ohio-Exit-Polls-2004.pdf.

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How about the Green Party gives me someone to vote FOR?
Posted by: AprilH on Jan 28, 2006 1:22 PM   
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And next time...please leave Ralph in the car.

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Cancelled Elections 1991
Posted by: AlienSlave on Jan 31, 2006 12:57 PM   
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Since the cancelled 1991 Algerian elections, radical fundamentalists have murdered more than 22,000 innocent people, including more than 100 foreigners, in an effort to topple the government. The fundamentalists' threats are not just the rhetoric of bored bullies. Journalists are under a direct threat of immediate execution if they enter the country; more than 70 have been killed and 700 have fled. Wearing glasses, Western clothes or even looking educated can make you a target. It is estimated that the entire wealth of this country of 28 million is in the hands of only about 5,000 people. http://www.comebackalive.com/df/dplaces/algeria/index.htm
AlienSlave

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THIS COUNTRY IS TOO BIG
Posted by: Pooty T on Feb 1, 2006 10:58 AM   
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We will never have fair elections, or any real self determination with a country this large. There is way too much money and power at stake.

Though, in Canada most still vote with paper and pencil, with no more than 350 people per precinct. They have their share of corruption, but not voting fraud.

Voting holidays and instant runoffs are also a must.

Seccession, too, will become necessary.

AND PLEASE UNDERSTAND THERE IS NO WAY TO GET A VERIFIABLE RECEIPT FROM A COMPUTER!!!

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Dems should do their own homework
Posted by: bookwoman on Feb 3, 2006 8:12 AM   
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When I was studying Administrative Law, our professor, who worked for the FDIC, told us that the FEC was a joke. Because it is made up of six members - three from each party, nothing ever gets done. Therefore, the Democrats and anyone who feels that dirty stuff was done to, once more, put the results of our last Presidential election in question should be forming committees and task forces to think up every dirty trick that has been used and could be devised in the future to stop each citizen who wishes to vote have their vote count.

We should know, by now, that the Republicans who are running these elections do not outright steal the election. As in Ohio, they make sure that people who try to vote on their lunch hour and can't stand on line for hours, are given fewer machines than are needed. They make sure that voting machines don't have a backup printout so that no one knows how a machine is miscounting the votes or if a glitch in the machine skewed everything. In this way, law suits brought to contest such actions fail as they did in Ohio because the answer from the defendents is "oops, sorry about that".

So, instead of sitting around after the Conservatives, once again, take over our government, why don't we figure out what they might do before hand. Democrats are too kind and gentle. They need to get it together and start thinking "dirty" so as to prempt any attempt on the part of any who will, once again, try to take the election away from the citizens of this country.

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sadasd
Posted by: corpse on Aug 4, 2006 8:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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asdasd
Posted by: corpse on Aug 7, 2006 9:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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