COMMENTS: 92
Finding Words to Talk About Race
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When I was 2, we moved to a more quietly intolerant college town in the central part of the state, where black, white and brown were equally fractioned. My brother and I were assumed by most to either be plain ol' white or part Chicano. In middle school, a fellow classmate spit the word "Mexican" at me as if it were an insult, and so I took it as one. In high school, I had one ear listening to Selena, the other tuned to Kurt Cobain.
I had no language to talk about these divides of difference. "Race" meant white or black. "Ethnicity" meant ... well, most people weren't exactly sure what it meant, but ethnic food was anything spicy and ethnic clothes were folksy costumes. To actually discuss prejudice or discrimination, its causes and consequences and daily realities — that was as distasteful as talking about sex at the dinner table. Even when James Byrd, Jr., was murdered in Jasper, Texas -- he was chained by his ankles and dragged behind a pickup truck -- and the murderers were tried and convicted in my hometown, people didn't talk about it.
And there, right in the center of middle-class Middle America, is the root of this nation's difficulty in talking about race and ethnicity. My mother's generation was bullied into fitting in. In a post-civil rights world, my generation grew up obeying a polite colorblindness, a denial of difference. For decades, we quietly ignored race, which meant we ignored discrimination, and we shrank from talking about racial or ethnic tensions. Today, primarily because of Hurricane Katrina, Americans have finally acknowledged that, actually, we do have to talk about race. We're just having trouble finding the right words.
What's needed are a million personal conversations between ordinary Americans. The complexities and nuances of color and culture, the disparities of wealth and education are best understood by learning the stories of each others' lives. Ordinary people are the true experts in cross-racial, cross-ethnic dialogue, if only we would start talking.
Whenever I begin to be lulled into the tranquil idea that maybe, just maybe, race and ethnicity don't matter, something happens to remind me of the power of these things to be either connecters or dividers.
A couple years ago, I was working on an article about the families of murder victims and had been invited to attend a support group for grieving parents. At the end of the meeting, I sat quietly reading some of the group's materials.
An old Mexican man came up to me and asked, "Your name is Maria Luisa? Are you Hispanic?"
This man's son had recently been murdered. He looked into my eyes -- he, the subject, me, the reporter -- and tried to decide whether to trust me with his story of grief.
"Yes, but my father is white," I answered.
"Well," he said, pausing to touch my pale hand. "Make sure to tell people your name is Maria." Then, he began his story.
He didn't want to know my credentials as a journalist, only my ethnicity. He told me about the agony of watching his crack-addicted son go down a dangerous path. He told me about the miserable end to a three-day search, when his son's lifeless body was found in a dumpster. He spilled family secrets because he assumed that since we were both Latino, we shared the same values.
It is significant that a name, skin tone or accent has so much emotional hold over us. Had my name been Amanda or Tiffany, the old man may never have greeted me. Actually, my name is different, and is pronounced differently, depending on who I'm talking to.
Friends and family call me Luisa. When asked why I use only one half of my first name, I explain that most women in my extended family are named Maria something-or-other, so we Marias go by nicknames or shortened versions of our full names. I'm not sure if this is entirely true, but most of the non-Latino people I meet demand an explanation, so I made one up for them.
When I introduce myself to Latino folks, I am Maria Luisa, the namesake of my maternal great-grandmother and the most obvious symbol of my Hispanic heritage. Like reminiscing about biscuits and gravy with fellow Southerners, most of the time I consider this variation on my introduction as a way to connect with Latinos. But sometimes, I feel like I'm pimping out my pseudo-Hispanic identity, like wearing a low-cut blouse in an attempt to get a special discount. Am I a cultural con artist, a disingenuous fake? What does it really mean to be Hispanic if my skin is white and my language is English?
Throughout my teens, I wondered about this. I hesitated to identify myself as a minority. I didn't feel like a "minority," nor did I know what that was supposed to feel like. But when I filled out forms for financial aid and college scholarships, being a minority took on a positive connotation. "Different" morphed into "diverse." The mother who had refused to teach us Spanish as children encouraged us to make sure we checked the "Hispanic" designation as college students. In college, I dabbled in trying to feel like a minority. I went to a Hispanic sorority party. I briefly joined an organization promoting racial equality. I attended a church group that promoted interracial marriage and ending racism as a spiritual goal.
Openly talking about race puts us at risk of being sucked into a quicksand of accusations and defensive anger. We fear the reactions to our words, cringe at the thought of being labeled. Depending on which side of the color line we stand on, we are afraid to offend, or we're afraid to be singled out. We don't want to be forced to act as a representative for all people of color or be questioned about the authenticity of belonging to a certain tribe.
And what words should we use when we do talk about race? Blacks may be unsure whether they should say "Latino" or "Hispanic." Whites may not know if it's PC to talk about Ebonics. A Christian once advised me not to call Jewish people "Jews" because, he said, the word was an epithet. And so conversations are stopped before they even begin.
The discomfort that goes hand in hand with discussions about race has halted conversations within my own bi-ethnic family.
My parents divorced long ago. My father remarried, to a woman who was both white and blonde. They wanted more children but were unable to conceive. Finally, two years ago, they adopted three Mexican-American siblings who had been in foster care. My left-leaning, hippie-esque father and I have never once had a conversation about race or ethnicity; the adoption of three little brown children didn't change that sad fact.
Secretly, I was thrilled at the addition of more Latin blood into the family. I daydreamed of bonding over our shared ethnicity. I would watch Dora the Explorer with them and show them how to dance the meringue. Like the old Mexican man, I assumed we would share similar values and interests because we shared a Latin American heritage.
My fantasies were halted when my father announced that, at the adoption ceremony, their names would be changed. Their "Mexican-sounding" names would be simplified into shorter, "white" names. Ostensibly, this was a protective measure to prevent the children from being teased. I wanted to scream at my dad; I felt this was a mistake worse than my mom abandoning Spanish. It was denying more than language -- it was denying their very identities. These three sweet-natured brown-eyed, brown-skinned children were being raised in a state that was about one-third Hispanic, yet their new parents' first lesson was that being Latino was strange and should be hidden. I couldn't understand why my father would do this. Two months ago, I got my answer.
After years of poor health, my dad's mother passed away. After the funeral, I caught up with my paternal relatives, who I hadn't seen in years. My mother had kept her distance from them during my childhood, and I had been repeatedly warned to stay away from one particular uncle. (Later I learned he was one of the individuals who referred to my mom as a "wetback.") It was this uncle who approached me.
"You know, your dad's problems started with those kids," he said.
I was silent.
"Those Mexican kids, you know. I told him he needed to change their names. It's just a fact of life that old white guys like me will mess with them."
He was apparently oblivious that he was talking to his niece, Maria Luisa. He might as well have said my father's problems started with my mother, or with me. What he did say was, "The world is full of old white guys like me."
It took a minute for the meaning of his words to sink in. By the time I found my tongue again, he was gone.
My uncle is right. There are a lot of old white guys like him. The world is full of people who unthinkingly buy into racism and prejudice. And the world is full of people who are afraid of those white guys and afraid of talking about the jumbled mess of race and racism. Because talking about our prejudices, our color, our deeply felt experiences, means exposing ourselves and our families. Conversations about race and ethnicity are conversations about sex, hate, love, ignorance, history, guilt, shame and anger. It's embarrassing, uncomfortable and emotionally draining.
Given the choice, we'd rather not talk about it. But given the state of things, we should try.
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Posted by: JBravoEcho11 on Jan 16, 2006 1:26 AM
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Ever since I was little, I knew I was adopted. It was a fact of life that I was as proud of that as my Hispanic heritage. Until 3rd grade, when I transfer from a public to a private school, when it wasn't cool to have 2 names and 2 countries and a 1-way ticket to Whiteyville in the wrong color plane. As soon as I proudly announced it on my first day at my new Catholic school, I was spoken Spanish-sounding gibberish to and called racist names. In junior high, I was on a swim team where I found out I was an "illegal alien" and a "wetback" and "my mother didn't love me so she gave me away". In school I was a "coke-baby", my mother was a "coke-addict", my unknown father "a drug lord". Since I couldn't escape it, I embraced it and became it. No one was letting me run from my skin color. I had been so proud of it before.
I had wanted to be a comedian around that time and what's the best way to fight off pain and prejudice? Laugh at it. Play it up. Make jokes. I had a whole story out how I swam the Caribbean Elian Gonzales style (who's story traumatized me that I thought I would get sent back) and my mother played catch with me at the orphanage and hid drugs inside me that I hadn't yet rid from my body. I learned all the drug lingo and would say it in class.
Continued in next post ...
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Posted by: patti_s on Jan 16, 2006 4:04 AM
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Evidently, we are people who were taken in pirate raids and abandoned on the southern shores by pirates who didn't care to kill us but would not feed us. We banded together for protection, interbred, and managed to survive, while being forced farther and farther west, away from the coasts where we were abandoned.
When the Europeans got to the part of the country where we finally settled, we were vilified to the point where Melungeon became an epithet worse even than the N word. Melungeons started hiding their identity. It seems no one wanted to publicly acknowledge their Melungeon blood. The knowledge was however, passed down in some families.
I am grateful to those people who passed that knowledge down. While tracing our family's origins I recently discovered our family name on the rolls of Melungeon archives being compiled by families of our bloodline who are unafraid to claim their history. After a little more research, our family discovered we are indeed descended from that tri-racial isolate group.
Instead of feeling inferior because of my bloodline, I feel a certain kinship with each racial group. This is inspite of being born fair-skinned in the South. Fair skin in the South or any other geographical region gets people exactly nothing if they are poor and we were.
Being different will bring ostracism in any group (even animals do it) and these days poor is the biggest racial, ethnic, or cultural group there is. I would submit that whoever you are, whatever color, you will become accepted as long as you have or generate lots of money. patti_s
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Posted by: Llama11 on Jan 16, 2006 5:33 AM
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My brother, who looks a little more native than me (slightly darker skin) is very immersed in our culture and denies any whiteness in him. I look at our culture and see but a remnant of what it once was, but since culture is transient, it works. I don't know my native language and I'd rather learn spanish since it's more practical. But you can bet that when I applied for college, I was accepted right away, and if it wasn't for the benefits I receive, I wouldn't be here. Harvard actually sent me a letter asking me to apply, but I never did because I knew it was only because I'm native. I'm definitely qualified to be here (Michigan State, w00t!), but not Harvard. And no, I'm not getting the free education everyone says I get. Granted, I've paid significantly less than other people. My hat is off to those kids who accrue 30k in debt, just to get through school.
It's funny how we ethnic folk love to joke about white people. And how white people love to joke about ethnic people. This is not a blanket statement, just a general observation. Since I look mostly white, I've been around when whites get racist, and I've been around when ethnics get racist, since I'm "one of them". We're not racist, we just got jokes, right?
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Posted by: citizenjoe on Jan 16, 2006 5:40 AM
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All nationalism advocates the political unity of a people under the single authority of a national community that peruses the interests of the people. This means among other things that the national authority is the authority of the state. Extreme nationalism demands that the nation and its members have thorough and unshakable unity and that their authority take every action defensive and offensive to insure the integrity and endurance of the nation-state. This is correctly described by saying that national unity is organic; the individual members serve both the nation and the state primarily and the entire nation both asserts and strives to establish its superiority among other nations and peoples in a pre-national or primitive condition; tribal peoples are the clearest examples. If its policy is sucessful, a particular well unified people become superior in power and authority to every other people whether unified or not.
In the extreme nationalist world view, although not always apparent, even to those who regard themselves as fascist and say so openly, a nation is a race. The thorough unity of the nation is not only social, political and cultural; it is by entailment also racial. Extreme nationalism implicitly or explicitly embraces the belief that a nation is both superior and race. Even so, some extreme nationalists avoid the term race when they speak of nations, especially their own. Whatever their intentions, the racial character of the nation is implicit in the view of nations organically unified and existing in a world of nation-states that is as a jungle in which each preys on one another to stay dominant and survive.
Even the extremist Mussolini was not anxious to say much on the divisive subject of the racial unity of nations. The Nazis’ had crudely biological racial views which were explicit whereas Mussolini was quite about race until the late 1930’s when Hitler demanded he express some proper racial views. Mussolini submitted to the discipline of “the master race” and did as he was told. The Italian fascist view of race was more refined than was the German. The racial views of Julius Evola were officially endorsed although they were not altogether satisfying to Der Fuehrer. Even so, Evola was sent to Germany to speak on Italian racial views
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Posted by: Yogy on Jan 16, 2006 5:59 AM
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We are one homo sapien species who vary because of the environments and climates that our ancestors were subjected to; nothing more. America has created this so-called race system as a way to separate the European-Americans from everyone else. That's all there is to it.
Please stop falling into that trap.
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Posted by: toroloco815 on Jan 16, 2006 6:09 AM
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i am a 2nd generation Chicano (even now i choose the term Xicano to acknowledge our indigenous roots) with a raised-poor father from tejas and a working-class mother born in califas...like most children of immigrants, they worked hard to realize the 'american dream' and with that to breach the sacred quest for middle-classdom....the price of assimilation: loss of our 'native' tongue; confusion of racial identity among my siblings and i; buying into the racial and class stereotypes so readily sold in Amerikka; dysfunctional behavior that crosses all class and racial lines, but flourishes in shame-based families such as ours; the pull to partner or marry 'white'; in my case, overt and covert racism experienced in predominately ' white' schools; etc. etc.
as with most things in life, assimilation had its 'positive' aspects: a better primary and secondary education and hence ( who else but an English major uses the term "hence") a greater chance at a college degree; as the author noted, the ability to utilize this country's flawed but badly needed attempt at affirmative action by claiming minority status in educational and work situations; 'dazzling' my white classmates with my inherent intelligence even while abusing alcohol and drugs to the same extent they did; the choice of upward class mobility; a familiarity of home-cooking when ordering at Mexican restaurants, etc. etc.
as i look back on my 40 y.o. life, i have no regrets and have come to stop blaming my parents for choosing assimilation as a means of survival in this country...i know now there were/are greater systems of oppression at work in making that choice....in hearing the familial stories of immigration, some from 'white' friends and acquaintances, but more often from other people of color, i am struck by the immense amount of pain, suffering, and silence that exists within these stories....but i am awed as well by the tremendous amount of resiliency that transcends whatever oppression we/they experienced....we're still here....oppressed, sometimes oppressing, but still struggling to make a more just world for our children...
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Posted by: starluna on Jan 16, 2006 6:20 AM
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It's nice that anthropologists have finally come to the conclusion that race has no "scientific" merit, particularly given the role of the discipline in biologizing race in the 19th and 20th centuries. But, there is no doubt that the biological import of race is still a contested issue, at least within the biomedical and life science community.
As a quite Irish looking Latina, I resonate with Ms. Tucker's article. Accusations of "falling into a race trap" trivializes our experiences and downplays the significance of discrimination and prejudice. Further, it falls into the trap of imposing one set of beliefs and perspectives on others who hold different beliefs based on different experiences, something an anthropologist should be careful to avoid. Acting as if race doesn't exist doesn't change the fact that people are treated on the basis of their race and ethnic heritage (as well as other features) as she and other commenters clearly demonstrate.
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Posted by: toroloco815 on Jan 16, 2006 6:22 AM
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Posted by: toroloco815 on Jan 16, 2006 6:50 AM
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Posted by: mombot on Jan 16, 2006 7:09 AM
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Posted by: starluna on Jan 16, 2006 7:41 AM
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The concern about divisiveness, to me, stems from a desire to assimilate all peoples into one blended group, a la the melting pot theory. It seeks a "color-blind" society. Well, the French tried that, and all it allowed them to do was ignore the ghettoization and marginalization of its immigrant communities.
The whole point of the article is to encourage all of us to actually start talking about race. Race is a social construct, but so is money, titles, and property. But I wouldn't be in the classroom 3 days a week unless I was paid to do it. And I still make my students call me professor. And I take very seriously any attempt to steal my stuff, which is why I lock the doors on my car. Social constructs are real because we make them real. So, if we don't discuss race openly then we perpetuate the problems of race, rather than reinforcing the good in accepting multiplicity of identities.
The original point of the construction of race was to categorize people in a heirarchy. In my view, the categorization of people is not the problem, although that is what seems to be the issue with people who don't want to talk about race because it is "divisive". The problem was the establishment of a heirarchy of people based on immutable characteristics or disliked behaviors. Perhaps part of what we need to accept if we are going to have this conversation, is that it is o.k. that we acknowlege that there are people who are different and their difference is of some consequence. Then we can move on to discussing that consequence and how to deal with it.
Finally, I think we should avoid casting judgement on someone's "perception of themselves". How about learning to accept how people see themselves? Just because it does not fit into your political project, doesn't mean their identity doesn't have meaning for them. Stop using your worldview as the standard by which to judge people. The first step towards a tolerant society is accepting other people's worldviews as possibly being legitimate.
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Posted by: han on Jan 16, 2006 7:44 AM
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But lets look at what we all have in common: We're all Brown! We're all humans, we can all communicate with one another. Don't even go into discussing your racial background. Just reply "everyone's brown!"
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Posted by: john2two on Jan 16, 2006 9:20 AM
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The cold fact is that I'm about as lily-white as a person can get. As far as I can tell, my ancestry is all from the British isles, but you have to go back many generations to reach anyone not born in North America. I was raised in a small college town in the Pacific Northwest in a family of educated liberals.
I hunger for a space where I can talk about ethnicity, and learn from others.
In my elementary school classes, there was one non-white kid. I think her family was of mixed latino-black-native american ancestry, but no one ever talked about it. She played mostly with the other kids from her immediate neighborhood. Over the years, our social circles diverged even further. As our 20th graduation anniversary approached, I even had to look her up in the year book to be sure that she had stayed with the class through graduation.
I have searched the web for her a couple times. I wish I could talk with her, and understand what her life was like. I wish I could see our mutual childhood through her eyes.
My Jewish wife grew up with mostly black and Puerto Rican friends. The aliens in her world were blonds. She and I talk about race, and she has taught me much by example and by discourse.
Damn straight I'm chock full of white liberal guilt. So what? Everybody's got to start where they start. If I stop growing, and stop learning at some point, everyone is welcome to mock me for my shallowness then. But for now, I want to listen my way out of the bias against the poor I learned as a child, and the stupid association of poorness with the chicanos from the next town over.
Do any of you know where I can find a web forum for conversations like this one?
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 16, 2006 9:30 AM
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Nobody should be raised or live denying the heritage they have inherited but it should also not be the overriding fact of their life. One only needs to look at places like Iraq or the recent history of the former Yugoslavia to see the dangers inherent in this kind of thinking when carried to the extreme.
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
I have a dream today!"
MLK
When will people stop living in and being trapped by the past?
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Posted by: FedUp on Jan 16, 2006 9:51 AM
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As a Latíno, I have to take exception to some of the author's comments.
The notion of "white" being the territory of non-Latínos, is always surprising to me. I suppose it stems from so many north Americans, both of Latíno and non-Latíno heritage never having traveled, or perhaps, having been brain-washed into believing something that isn't true.
Races? There isn't a "race" that isn't represented somewhere in Latin America; whether they're Germans in such places as Tovar, or ebony faces in coastal Colombia, to Asian faces in Mexico City.
Latin America is a true melting pot under the umbrella name.
My white mother was born and reared in a rural community outside Ponce, Puerto Rico, where there was no doubt as to their race, their ethnicity, or their nationality. That said; it didn't mean they wouldn't interact with others. My father is mixed race, and he was welcomed by my mother's friends and surrounding clans because he proved himself worthy of admiration.
My parents instilled in me a strong sense of identity, and I took over where they left off.
Now that I've been in this country since 1992, there isn't anything anyone can say that will make me feel inferior. I never use "white" to refer to non-Latínos; they have their own ethnic badges, and if they want me to use them, so be it, but they don't get to hijack "white" as theirs and theirs alone.
I won't speak Spanish words with an English accent so they'll feel comfortable, and I will correct their notions, misconceptions, and myths about Latínos. I always try to do this in a non-confrontational way, but I won't brook any nonsense either.
I try not to speak down to them, but childlike foolishness, that I know is an attempt to make me feel as though I come from some niche that they have created in order to make themselves feel superior isn't tolerated.
Do I make people squirm? Yes. But, I can't sit and placidly have my birthright manipulated for someone's soicio/political agenda.
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Posted by: Sojourner on Jan 16, 2006 10:45 AM
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Hutu and Tutsi in Africa were categories made up by the Belgian invaders to differentiate light from dark skinned natives, making the former fashionable and the latter unfashionable. That arbitrary distinction became so identified with privilege, for the one, and resentment that it became a basis recently for ethnic warfare.
Right now, in another African nation, without that history, lighter skin and darker skin are being used to decide who will live and who will die.
Race is a category that has now gone out of fashion. But it still is being used as an excuse for sadism. No one can do anything about who their parents were, and the genetic disposition at birth.
The sadist is a tormented, twisted human being. The sadist will brutalize those of the same ethnicity as he. He may claim an excuse or reason for what he does, but he needs none. A sadist is what he does. We all are what we do, not how we look.
And, yes, we need to protect ourselves from such poison as much as possible.
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Posted by: nedwylie on Jan 16, 2006 12:44 PM
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Words can be powerful. I think it's time for civil, good-hearted folks to speak out. Get over the fear of offending--keep talking if you're misunderstood--speak from your heart. Those are the most powerful words of all.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jan 16, 2006 1:20 PM
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In the North, you (non-white) folks can go as high as you want as long as you don't get near them (whites).
In the South, you (non-white) folks can be as close to them (white) folks as long as you don't go high.
I'm not a "colored" guy but I don't feel comfortable with this stereotype still lingering to this day.
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Posted by: afrothetics
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Posted by: CondeJodido on Jan 16, 2006 2:37 PM
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Que le vaya bien.
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» RE: CondeJodido
Posted by: ElisaDetroit
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Posted by: emaroda on Jan 16, 2006 3:09 PM
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» But...so does misinformation
Posted by: afrothetics
» RE: Words exist in abundance to talk about race/ethnicity
Posted by: Luisa
» RE: Words exist in abundance to talk about race/ethnicity
Posted by: starluna
» RE: Words exist in abundance to talk about race/ethnicity
Posted by: Abra
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Posted by: negrita7 on Jan 16, 2006 3:09 PM
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Posted by: harambee on Jan 16, 2006 4:52 PM
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As an African American from the South, I know how blacks have been conditioned to believe that the less African you look, the better. Flatten the hair, bleach the skin, avoid the sun because "Lord knows you don't need to get any darker". Despite the Black Is Beautiful movement in the 1970's, self-hate still grips many Southern women.
Well, a lesser-known "movement", the increase of natural hair styles, started in the 1990's. More and more blacks are learning to embrace the kink in their hair and work with what God gave them. For some, it is just a trend, but for many, it is a lifelong decision. In my case, I plan to remain natural.
I wanted to go natural and drop the scalp burning chemicals that took my hair out on a regular basis. I thought about it for a brief moment in college, but I thought my parents would kill me. Also, I thought I would get laughed at or something. However, over three years ago, I gave up relaxers and grew a small Afro. I now have locs (dreadlocks), and I so glad that I am now able to embrace who I really am.
Yes, I get weird looks, and I know people assume things, but it's not about pleasing others. It's about being able to live with yourself.
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» RE: Intraracism
Posted by: benzene
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Posted by: afrothetics on Jan 16, 2006 5:18 PM
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Folks, there is a reason that over 50% of prisons are filled with African American males and 10% Hispanic, while the prisons are largely located in predominately Anglo communities. This incarceration rate has nothing to do with real crime. Ask yourselves, how many people who commit white collar crime ever go to real prison? The legacy of the institutions that were spawned during slavery survives in the institutions in which the majority of US citizen work and support. That's why we speak of "institutional racism."
To the question of Web resources, try Frank Sweet's forum on US racialism here. Frank has written a host of well-informed papers on the subject. His bibliographies will lead you to more materials. However, a reading of Lerone Bennett, Jr.'s "The Shaping of Black America" is essential.
If you want to really live on the fence, you can read various views at the Interracial Voice or Multiracial Activist. Both offer good and bad content. Escaping the debate of Black v. White, given that "race" is a social construct, may get easier as US citizens become more knowledgeable about the genome project and "race." But, I doubt it.
The problem, IMO, is that the human misery left behind in the wake of White supremacy will remain as Maria Luisa noted in reference to what Hurricane Katrina exposed. Just as we are having this discourse in 2006; just as we continue to let our national assets be robbed by Bush and the neoconservatives; just as we continue to let the war continue in Iraq at over a billion/week, while our schools are being defunded lets me know that too many are not willing to solve the problem of the color-line either. It's easier for most to support the institutionalized demands of White supremacy regardless of their ethnicity.
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Posted by: owleyes on Jan 16, 2006 6:56 PM
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Posted by: benzene on Jan 16, 2006 9:37 PM
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So perhaps people are openly tolerant of race, but the culture is such that race exists in carefully seperated zones, and blasphemy results from blurring them.
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» RE: Culture v. Race
Posted by: zinnia
» RE: Culture v. Race
Posted by: benzene
» RE: Culture v. Race
Posted by: zinnia
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Posted by: blanca on Jan 16, 2006 11:15 PM
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When Are Irish-Americans Not Good Enough to Be Irish-American? "Racial Kidnaping" and the Case of the Healy Family
http://www.interracialvoice.com/powell8.html
Racial Mixture, "White" Identity, and The "Forgotten" (or censored) Cause of the Civil War
http://www.interracialvoice.com/powell9.html
White Racial Identity, Racial Mixture, and the "One Drop Rule"
http://www.melungeon.org/
http://multiracial.com/content/view/417/27/
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Posted by: mr5roses on Jan 17, 2006 8:19 AM
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» RE: OK with me. OK with Jew?
Posted by: ebdotkom
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Posted by: karyse on Jan 17, 2006 11:02 AM
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How did it come to pass that the Irish escaped their early tags? the Italians? The Poles? Why can't everyone?
At the risk of minimizing the problem, could it be that the recognition that they were all poor and oppressed, and their consequent radicalism (unions, anarchy, communism) made them realize that how "us" and "them" was actually "rich" and "poor"?
As long as the people of the U.S. can't or won't understand that I (as a "white, working class, woman") have more in common with a Mexican "wage slave" than I'll ever have in common with Hilary Clinton, there will be no change.
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Posted by: Daph on Jan 17, 2006 11:19 AM
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Discrimination is part of biological hard-wiring. The problem begins with assigning "value" to specific qualities that account for differences within a species. And the more complex a society becomes, the more arbitrary these values. In hunter-gatherer societies, division of labor by gender makes sense because it ensures survival of the species/tribe: both males and females perform equally necessary roles.
In America, we still struggle with this biological difference as we place a higher value on economic success than on, for example, education.
And America is still struggling with another biological difference: my tribe versus other tribes. It's as if we've finally agreed (well, all but the most rabid biggots) that we're all canines, but are their tribes wolves, retrievers, cyotes, or pekenese? Until we know, we sniff the wind and check out their scat before we decide "may be friend" or "could be foe."
Whichever decision we come to, we generally base it on cultural cues, things we learned growing up as "values" -- lightness or darkness of skin, hair texture, language, accent, economic status, education, music preference. And we accept as friends those who are most like ourselves IN THE AREAS MOST IMPORTANT TO US.
Do I discriminate? You bet! My own bias happens to be: kindness, sense of humor, wide interests, open-mindedness, love of music. My friends look like a dog pound collection, not just in terms of "breed" but in other "cultural values."
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» RE: Daph
Posted by: owleyes
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Posted by: jwg on Jan 17, 2006 6:26 PM
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If you trace back from M45 it goes back to Africa to a man we are all related to. When will we learn that all humans are members of the same family no matter what we look like or come from?
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» RE: National Geographic genome project
Posted by: FedUp
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Posted by: Asses of Evil on Jan 18, 2006 12:55 PM
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Posted by: herbivore on Jan 18, 2006 9:22 PM
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A strategy of "we're all brown" (or pinkish-brown whatever the colour mix of the entire human race would be) just shifts the issue. It is like saying that we're all humans whether we are blind or require wheelchairs. It's a noble sentiment but gets the discussion nowhere.
The onus is not on the people who are seen as "different" to try to fit in, the onus is on those oppressing to become open to diversity and difference. We'll still need wheelchair ramps; education for kids to deal effectively with different genders, family units, race, culture, language; institutions that give a helping hand to disadvantaged groups; and so on. Well, this is what we need but not necessarily what governments are giving out.
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» RE: Oppression is not avoided by striving for sameness
Posted by: herbivore
» RE: Oppression is not avoided by striving for sameness
Posted by: FedUp
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Posted by: JamesSorrell on Jan 20, 2006 3:17 PM
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Skin color means nothing! God scattered people at the
Tower of Babel all over the planet, confused their
languages and changed their appearance & skin color to
keep them from "going overboard"!
Different skin color is like cars rolling off the
assembly line in Detroit....It's the same basic car,
just a different paint job!
A car painted red (or white, or black, or green, etc.)
is no better or worse than any other color....it's
just a matter of choice!!
Prejudice is a form of insanity! UNEQUAL opportunity,
arrogance & the greed of
Oligarchs/Dictators/BigBusiness is really to blame for
poverty!
(Especially in the USA, where Abraham Lincoln once
said: "Equal opportunity for every American in the
unfinished work of America!"
See--->"LOVE is the Real Thing" on the forums listed
below.......
http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=15311
or
http://jimsorrell.proboards33.com or
http://www.bev.net/users/homepages/JamesSorrell or
http://thekeeperoftheflame.blogspot.com
jamessorrell2003@yahoo.com
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Posted by: evanstucker on Feb 6, 2006 8:35 AM
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Yeah, yeah... I'm pessimistic. Kinda grumpy this morning.
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Posted by: ebdotkom on Feb 13, 2006 12:17 PM
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The NOLA/Katrina images we see on our TV screens every day include all people getting shafted. Just ask Trent Lott.
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Posted by: JBravoEcho11 on Jan 16, 2006 1:26 AM
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Ever since I was little, I knew I was adopted. It was a fact of life that I was as proud of that as my Hispanic heritage. Until 3rd grade, when I transfer from a public to a private school, when it wasn't cool to have 2 names and 2 countries and a 1-way ticket to Whiteyville in the wrong color plane. As soon as I proudly announced it on my first day at my new Catholic school, I was spoken Spanish-sounding gibberish to and called racist names. In junior high, I was on a swim team where I found out I was an "illegal alien" and a "wetback" and "my mother didn't love me so she gave me away". In school I was a "coke-baby", my mother was a "coke-addict", my unknown father "a drug lord". Since I couldn't escape it, I embraced it and became it. No one was letting me run from my skin color. I had been so proud of it before.
I had wanted to be a comedian around that time and what's the best way to fight off pain and prejudice? Laugh at it. Play it up. Make jokes. I had a whole story out how I swam the Caribbean Elian Gonzales style (who's story traumatized me that I thought I would get sent back) and my mother played catch with me at the orphanage and hid drugs inside me that I hadn't yet rid from my body. I learned all the drug lingo and would say it in class.
Continued in next post ...
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» Cont. of story
Posted by: JBravoEcho11
» RE: Cont. of story
Posted by: fairleft
» RE: Crap I screwed up, Read 2nd Cont.
Posted by: Lizka
» RE: Here's my story
Posted by: gerireig
» RE: Here's my story
Posted by: Roverton
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Posted by: patti_s on Jan 16, 2006 4:04 AM
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Evidently, we are people who were taken in pirate raids and abandoned on the southern shores by pirates who didn't care to kill us but would not feed us. We banded together for protection, interbred, and managed to survive, while being forced farther and farther west, away from the coasts where we were abandoned.
When the Europeans got to the part of the country where we finally settled, we were vilified to the point where Melungeon became an epithet worse even than the N word. Melungeons started hiding their identity. It seems no one wanted to publicly acknowledge their Melungeon blood. The knowledge was however, passed down in some families.
I am grateful to those people who passed that knowledge down. While tracing our family's origins I recently discovered our family name on the rolls of Melungeon archives being compiled by families of our bloodline who are unafraid to claim their history. After a little more research, our family discovered we are indeed descended from that tri-racial isolate group.
Instead of feeling inferior because of my bloodline, I feel a certain kinship with each racial group. This is inspite of being born fair-skinned in the South. Fair skin in the South or any other geographical region gets people exactly nothing if they are poor and we were.
Being different will bring ostracism in any group (even animals do it) and these days poor is the biggest racial, ethnic, or cultural group there is. I would submit that whoever you are, whatever color, you will become accepted as long as you have or generate lots of money. patti_s
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» RE: patti_s.
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Sorry I clicked the wrong button
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Melungeons
Posted by: afrothetics
» RE: Melungeons
Posted by: afrothetics
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Posted by: Llama11 on Jan 16, 2006 5:33 AM
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My brother, who looks a little more native than me (slightly darker skin) is very immersed in our culture and denies any whiteness in him. I look at our culture and see but a remnant of what it once was, but since culture is transient, it works. I don't know my native language and I'd rather learn spanish since it's more practical. But you can bet that when I applied for college, I was accepted right away, and if it wasn't for the benefits I receive, I wouldn't be here. Harvard actually sent me a letter asking me to apply, but I never did because I knew it was only because I'm native. I'm definitely qualified to be here (Michigan State, w00t!), but not Harvard. And no, I'm not getting the free education everyone says I get. Granted, I've paid significantly less than other people. My hat is off to those kids who accrue 30k in debt, just to get through school.
It's funny how we ethnic folk love to joke about white people. And how white people love to joke about ethnic people. This is not a blanket statement, just a general observation. Since I look mostly white, I've been around when whites get racist, and I've been around when ethnics get racist, since I'm "one of them". We're not racist, we just got jokes, right?
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» Cont
Posted by: Llama11
» RE: Cont
Posted by: Samantha Vimes
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Posted by: citizenjoe on Jan 16, 2006 5:40 AM
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All nationalism advocates the political unity of a people under the single authority of a national community that peruses the interests of the people. This means among other things that the national authority is the authority of the state. Extreme nationalism demands that the nation and its members have thorough and unshakable unity and that their authority take every action defensive and offensive to insure the integrity and endurance of the nation-state. This is correctly described by saying that national unity is organic; the individual members serve both the nation and the state primarily and the entire nation both asserts and strives to establish its superiority among other nations and peoples in a pre-national or primitive condition; tribal peoples are the clearest examples. If its policy is sucessful, a particular well unified people become superior in power and authority to every other people whether unified or not.
In the extreme nationalist world view, although not always apparent, even to those who regard themselves as fascist and say so openly, a nation is a race. The thorough unity of the nation is not only social, political and cultural; it is by entailment also racial. Extreme nationalism implicitly or explicitly embraces the belief that a nation is both superior and race. Even so, some extreme nationalists avoid the term race when they speak of nations, especially their own. Whatever their intentions, the racial character of the nation is implicit in the view of nations organically unified and existing in a world of nation-states that is as a jungle in which each preys on one another to stay dominant and survive.
Even the extremist Mussolini was not anxious to say much on the divisive subject of the racial unity of nations. The Nazis’ had crudely biological racial views which were explicit whereas Mussolini was quite about race until the late 1930’s when Hitler demanded he express some proper racial views. Mussolini submitted to the discipline of “the master race” and did as he was told. The Italian fascist view of race was more refined than was the German. The racial views of Julius Evola were officially endorsed although they were not altogether satisfying to Der Fuehrer. Even so, Evola was sent to Germany to speak on Italian racial views
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Posted by: Yogy on Jan 16, 2006 5:59 AM
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We are one homo sapien species who vary because of the environments and climates that our ancestors were subjected to; nothing more. America has created this so-called race system as a way to separate the European-Americans from everyone else. That's all there is to it.
Please stop falling into that trap.
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» RE: Perceptions
Posted by: gerireig
» RE: Perceptions
Posted by: Llama11
» RE: Perceptions
Posted by: Yogy
» RE: Perceptions
Posted by: Shalimarali
» RE: Perceptions
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Perceptions
Posted by: rickbwa
» RE: Perceptions
Posted by: bigfoot
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Posted by: toroloco815 on Jan 16, 2006 6:09 AM
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i am a 2nd generation Chicano (even now i choose the term Xicano to acknowledge our indigenous roots) with a raised-poor father from tejas and a working-class mother born in califas...like most children of immigrants, they worked hard to realize the 'american dream' and with that to breach the sacred quest for middle-classdom....the price of assimilation: loss of our 'native' tongue; confusion of racial identity among my siblings and i; buying into the racial and class stereotypes so readily sold in Amerikka; dysfunctional behavior that crosses all class and racial lines, but flourishes in shame-based families such as ours; the pull to partner or marry 'white'; in my case, overt and covert racism experienced in predominately ' white' schools; etc. etc.
as with most things in life, assimilation had its 'positive' aspects: a better primary and secondary education and hence ( who else but an English major uses the term "hence") a greater chance at a college degree; as the author noted, the ability to utilize this country's flawed but badly needed attempt at affirmative action by claiming minority status in educational and work situations; 'dazzling' my white classmates with my inherent intelligence even while abusing alcohol and drugs to the same extent they did; the choice of upward class mobility; a familiarity of home-cooking when ordering at Mexican restaurants, etc. etc.
as i look back on my 40 y.o. life, i have no regrets and have come to stop blaming my parents for choosing assimilation as a means of survival in this country...i know now there were/are greater systems of oppression at work in making that choice....in hearing the familial stories of immigration, some from 'white' friends and acquaintances, but more often from other people of color, i am struck by the immense amount of pain, suffering, and silence that exists within these stories....but i am awed as well by the tremendous amount of resiliency that transcends whatever oppression we/they experienced....we're still here....oppressed, sometimes oppressing, but still struggling to make a more just world for our children...
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» RE: sitting on la frontera
Posted by: jefhadist
» RE: sitting on la frontera
Posted by: toroloco815
» RE: sitting on la frontera
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: sitting on la frontera
Posted by: toroloco815
» RE: sitting on la frontera
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: sitting on la frontera
Posted by: Asses of Evil
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Posted by: starluna on Jan 16, 2006 6:20 AM
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It's nice that anthropologists have finally come to the conclusion that race has no "scientific" merit, particularly given the role of the discipline in biologizing race in the 19th and 20th centuries. But, there is no doubt that the biological import of race is still a contested issue, at least within the biomedical and life science community.
As a quite Irish looking Latina, I resonate with Ms. Tucker's article. Accusations of "falling into a race trap" trivializes our experiences and downplays the significance of discrimination and prejudice. Further, it falls into the trap of imposing one set of beliefs and perspectives on others who hold different beliefs based on different experiences, something an anthropologist should be careful to avoid. Acting as if race doesn't exist doesn't change the fact that people are treated on the basis of their race and ethnic heritage (as well as other features) as she and other commenters clearly demonstrate.
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Posted by: toroloco815 on Jan 16, 2006 6:22 AM
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» RE: re: perceptions
Posted by: Yogy
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Posted by: toroloco815 on Jan 16, 2006 6:50 AM
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Posted by: mombot on Jan 16, 2006 7:09 AM
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Posted by: starluna on Jan 16, 2006 7:41 AM
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The concern about divisiveness, to me, stems from a desire to assimilate all peoples into one blended group, a la the melting pot theory. It seeks a "color-blind" society. Well, the French tried that, and all it allowed them to do was ignore the ghettoization and marginalization of its immigrant communities.
The whole point of the article is to encourage all of us to actually start talking about race. Race is a social construct, but so is money, titles, and property. But I wouldn't be in the classroom 3 days a week unless I was paid to do it. And I still make my students call me professor. And I take very seriously any attempt to steal my stuff, which is why I lock the doors on my car. Social constructs are real because we make them real. So, if we don't discuss race openly then we perpetuate the problems of race, rather than reinforcing the good in accepting multiplicity of identities.
The original point of the construction of race was to categorize people in a heirarchy. In my view, the categorization of people is not the problem, although that is what seems to be the issue with people who don't want to talk about race because it is "divisive". The problem was the establishment of a heirarchy of people based on immutable characteristics or disliked behaviors. Perhaps part of what we need to accept if we are going to have this conversation, is that it is o.k. that we acknowlege that there are people who are different and their difference is of some consequence. Then we can move on to discussing that consequence and how to deal with it.
Finally, I think we should avoid casting judgement on someone's "perception of themselves". How about learning to accept how people see themselves? Just because it does not fit into your political project, doesn't mean their identity doesn't have meaning for them. Stop using your worldview as the standard by which to judge people. The first step towards a tolerant society is accepting other people's worldviews as possibly being legitimate.
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» RE: New language
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: New language
Posted by: starluna
» I would also like to add...
Posted by: starluna
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Posted by: han on Jan 16, 2006 7:44 AM
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But lets look at what we all have in common: We're all Brown! We're all humans, we can all communicate with one another. Don't even go into discussing your racial background. Just reply "everyone's brown!"
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» RE: veryone is brown!
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: everyone is brown!
Posted by: zinnia
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Posted by: john2two on Jan 16, 2006 9:20 AM
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The cold fact is that I'm about as lily-white as a person can get. As far as I can tell, my ancestry is all from the British isles, but you have to go back many generations to reach anyone not born in North America. I was raised in a small college town in the Pacific Northwest in a family of educated liberals.
I hunger for a space where I can talk about ethnicity, and learn from others.
In my elementary school classes, there was one non-white kid. I think her family was of mixed latino-black-native american ancestry, but no one ever talked about it. She played mostly with the other kids from her immediate neighborhood. Over the years, our social circles diverged even further. As our 20th graduation anniversary approached, I even had to look her up in the year book to be sure that she had stayed with the class through graduation.
I have searched the web for her a couple times. I wish I could talk with her, and understand what her life was like. I wish I could see our mutual childhood through her eyes.
My Jewish wife grew up with mostly black and Puerto Rican friends. The aliens in her world were blonds. She and I talk about race, and she has taught me much by example and by discourse.
Damn straight I'm chock full of white liberal guilt. So what? Everybody's got to start where they start. If I stop growing, and stop learning at some point, everyone is welcome to mock me for my shallowness then. But for now, I want to listen my way out of the bias against the poor I learned as a child, and the stupid association of poorness with the chicanos from the next town over.
Do any of you know where I can find a web forum for conversations like this one?
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» RE: Where to go for more?
Posted by: saldali
» RE: Where to go for more?
Posted by: negrita7
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 16, 2006 9:30 AM
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Nobody should be raised or live denying the heritage they have inherited but it should also not be the overriding fact of their life. One only needs to look at places like Iraq or the recent history of the former Yugoslavia to see the dangers inherent in this kind of thinking when carried to the extreme.
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
I have a dream today!"
MLK
When will people stop living in and being trapped by the past?
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» RE: Divide & Conquer -patti_s.
Posted by: patti_s
» RE: Divide & Conquer
Posted by: decembrist
» RE: Divide & Conquer
Posted by: NoPCZone
» Rich, Common Heritage is Something to Work For
Posted by: decembrist
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Posted by: FedUp on Jan 16, 2006 9:51 AM
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As a Latíno, I have to take exception to some of the author's comments.
The notion of "white" being the territory of non-Latínos, is always surprising to me. I suppose it stems from so many north Americans, both of Latíno and non-Latíno heritage never having traveled, or perhaps, having been brain-washed into believing something that isn't true.
Races? There isn't a "race" that isn't represented somewhere in Latin America; whether they're Germans in such places as Tovar, or ebony faces in coastal Colombia, to Asian faces in Mexico City.
Latin America is a true melting pot under the umbrella name.
My white mother was born and reared in a rural community outside Ponce, Puerto Rico, where there was no doubt as to their race, their ethnicity, or their nationality. That said; it didn't mean they wouldn't interact with others. My father is mixed race, and he was welcomed by my mother's friends and surrounding clans because he proved himself worthy of admiration.
My parents instilled in me a strong sense of identity, and I took over where they left off.
Now that I've been in this country since 1992, there isn't anything anyone can say that will make me feel inferior. I never use "white" to refer to non-Latínos; they have their own ethnic badges, and if they want me to use them, so be it, but they don't get to hijack "white" as theirs and theirs alone.
I won't speak Spanish words with an English accent so they'll feel comfortable, and I will correct their notions, misconceptions, and myths about Latínos. I always try to do this in a non-confrontational way, but I won't brook any nonsense either.
I try not to speak down to them, but childlike foolishness, that I know is an attempt to make me feel as though I come from some niche that they have created in order to make themselves feel superior isn't tolerated.
Do I make people squirm? Yes. But, I can't sit and placidly have my birthright manipulated for someone's soicio/political agenda.
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» RE: Finding Words to Talk About "Race"
Posted by: negrita7
» RE: Finding Words to Talk About "Race"
Posted by: FedUp
» RE: Finding Words to Talk About "Race"
Posted by: Luisa
» RE: Finding Words to Talk About "Race"
Posted by: FedUp
» RE: Finding Words to Talk About "Race"
Posted by: herbivore
» RE: Finding Words to Talk About "Race"
Posted by: FedUp
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Posted by: Sojourner on Jan 16, 2006 10:45 AM
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Hutu and Tutsi in Africa were categories made up by the Belgian invaders to differentiate light from dark skinned natives, making the former fashionable and the latter unfashionable. That arbitrary distinction became so identified with privilege, for the one, and resentment that it became a basis recently for ethnic warfare.
Right now, in another African nation, without that history, lighter skin and darker skin are being used to decide who will live and who will die.
Race is a category that has now gone out of fashion. But it still is being used as an excuse for sadism. No one can do anything about who their parents were, and the genetic disposition at birth.
The sadist is a tormented, twisted human being. The sadist will brutalize those of the same ethnicity as he. He may claim an excuse or reason for what he does, but he needs none. A sadist is what he does. We all are what we do, not how we look.
And, yes, we need to protect ourselves from such poison as much as possible.
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Posted by: nedwylie on Jan 16, 2006 12:44 PM
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Words can be powerful. I think it's time for civil, good-hearted folks to speak out. Get over the fear of offending--keep talking if you're misunderstood--speak from your heart. Those are the most powerful words of all.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jan 16, 2006 1:20 PM
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In the North, you (non-white) folks can go as high as you want as long as you don't get near them (whites).
In the South, you (non-white) folks can be as close to them (white) folks as long as you don't go high.
I'm not a "colored" guy but I don't feel comfortable with this stereotype still lingering to this day.
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» RE: Too close vs Too high
Posted by: afrothetics
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Posted by: CondeJodido on Jan 16, 2006 2:37 PM
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Que le vaya bien.
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» RE: CondeJodido
Posted by: ElisaDetroit
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Posted by: emaroda on Jan 16, 2006 3:09 PM
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» But...so does misinformation
Posted by: afrothetics
» RE: Words exist in abundance to talk about race/ethnicity
Posted by: Luisa
» RE: Words exist in abundance to talk about race/ethnicity
Posted by: starluna
» RE: Words exist in abundance to talk about race/ethnicity
Posted by: Abra
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Posted by: negrita7 on Jan 16, 2006 3:09 PM
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Posted by: harambee on Jan 16, 2006 4:52 PM
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As an African American from the South, I know how blacks have been conditioned to believe that the less African you look, the better. Flatten the hair, bleach the skin, avoid the sun because "Lord knows you don't need to get any darker". Despite the Black Is Beautiful movement in the 1970's, self-hate still grips many Southern women.
Well, a lesser-known "movement", the increase of natural hair styles, started in the 1990's. More and more blacks are learning to embrace the kink in their hair and work with what God gave them. For some, it is just a trend, but for many, it is a lifelong decision. In my case, I plan to remain natural.
I wanted to go natural and drop the scalp burning chemicals that took my hair out on a regular basis. I thought about it for a brief moment in college, but I thought my parents would kill me. Also, I thought I would get laughed at or something. However, over three years ago, I gave up relaxers and grew a small Afro. I now have locs (dreadlocks), and I so glad that I am now able to embrace who I really am.
Yes, I get weird looks, and I know people assume things, but it's not about pleasing others. It's about being able to live with yourself.
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» RE: Intraracism
Posted by: benzene
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Posted by: afrothetics on Jan 16, 2006 5:18 PM
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Folks, there is a reason that over 50% of prisons are filled with African American males and 10% Hispanic, while the prisons are largely located in predominately Anglo communities. This incarceration rate has nothing to do with real crime. Ask yourselves, how many people who commit white collar crime ever go to real prison? The legacy of the institutions that were spawned during slavery survives in the institutions in which the majority of US citizen work and support. That's why we speak of "institutional racism."
To the question of Web resources, try Frank Sweet's forum on US racialism here. Frank has written a host of well-informed papers on the subject. His bibliographies will lead you to more materials. However, a reading of Lerone Bennett, Jr.'s "The Shaping of Black America" is essential.
If you want to really live on the fence, you can read various views at the Interracial Voice or Multiracial Activist. Both offer good and bad content. Escaping the debate of Black v. White, given that "race" is a social construct, may get easier as US citizens become more knowledgeable about the genome project and "race." But, I doubt it.
The problem, IMO, is that the human misery left behind in the wake of White supremacy will remain as Maria Luisa noted in reference to what Hurricane Katrina exposed. Just as we are having this discourse in 2006; just as we continue to let our national assets be robbed by Bush and the neoconservatives; just as we continue to let the war continue in Iraq at over a billion/week, while our schools are being defunded lets me know that too many are not willing to solve the problem of the color-line either. It's easier for most to support the institutionalized demands of White supremacy regardless of their ethnicity.
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Posted by: owleyes on Jan 16, 2006 6:56 PM
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Posted by: benzene on Jan 16, 2006 9:37 PM
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So perhaps people are openly tolerant of race, but the culture is such that race exists in carefully seperated zones, and blasphemy results from blurring them.
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» RE: Culture v. Race
Posted by: zinnia
» RE: Culture v. Race
Posted by: benzene
» RE: Culture v. Race
Posted by: zinnia
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Posted by: blanca on Jan 16, 2006 11:15 PM
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When Are Irish-Americans Not Good Enough to Be Irish-American? "Racial Kidnaping" and the Case of the Healy Family
http://www.interracialvoice.com/powell8.html
Racial Mixture, "White" Identity, and The "Forgotten" (or censored) Cause of the Civil War
http://www.interracialvoice.com/powell9.html
White Racial Identity, Racial Mixture, and the "One Drop Rule"
http://www.melungeon.org/
http://multiracial.com/content/view/417/27/
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Posted by: mr5roses on Jan 17, 2006 8:19 AM
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» RE: OK with me. OK with Jew?
Posted by: ebdotkom
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Posted by: karyse on Jan 17, 2006 11:02 AM
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How did it come to pass that the Irish escaped their early tags? the Italians? The Poles? Why can't everyone?
At the risk of minimizing the problem, could it be that the recognition that they were all poor and oppressed, and their consequent radicalism (unions, anarchy, communism) made them realize that how "us" and "them" was actually "rich" and "poor"?
As long as the people of the U.S. can't or won't understand that I (as a "white, working class, woman") have more in common with a Mexican "wage slave" than I'll ever have in common with Hilary Clinton, there will be no change.
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Posted by: Daph on Jan 17, 2006 11:19 AM
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Discrimination is part of biological hard-wiring. The problem begins with assigning "value" to specific qualities that account for differences within a species. And the more complex a society becomes, the more arbitrary these values. In hunter-gatherer societies, division of labor by gender makes sense because it ensures survival of the species/tribe: both males and females perform equally necessary roles.
In America, we still struggle with this biological difference as we place a higher value on economic success than on, for example, education.
And America is still struggling with another biological difference: my tribe versus other tribes. It's as if we've finally agreed (well, all but the most rabid biggots) that we're all canines, but are their tribes wolves, retrievers, cyotes, or pekenese? Until we know, we sniff the wind and check out their scat before we decide "may be friend" or "could be foe."
Whichever decision we come to, we generally base it on cultural cues, things we learned growing up as "values" -- lightness or darkness of skin, hair texture, language, accent, economic status, education, music preference. And we accept as friends those who are most like ourselves IN THE AREAS MOST IMPORTANT TO US.
Do I discriminate? You bet! My own bias happens to be: kindness, sense of humor, wide interests, open-mindedness, love of music. My friends look like a dog pound collection, not just in terms of "breed" but in other "cultural values."
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» RE: Daph
Posted by: owleyes
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Posted by: jwg on Jan 17, 2006 6:26 PM
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If you trace back from M45 it goes back to Africa to a man we are all related to. When will we learn that all humans are members of the same family no matter what we look like or come from?
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» RE: National Geographic genome project
Posted by: FedUp
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Posted by: Asses of Evil on Jan 18, 2006 12:55 PM
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Posted by: herbivore on Jan 18, 2006 9:22 PM
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A strategy of "we're all brown" (or pinkish-brown whatever the colour mix of the entire human race would be) just shifts the issue. It is like saying that we're all humans whether we are blind or require wheelchairs. It's a noble sentiment but gets the discussion nowhere.
The onus is not on the people who are seen as "different" to try to fit in, the onus is on those oppressing to become open to diversity and difference. We'll still need wheelchair ramps; education for kids to deal effectively with different genders, family units, race, culture, language; institutions that give a helping hand to disadvantaged groups; and so on. Well, this is what we need but not necessarily what governments are giving out.
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» RE: Oppression is not avoided by striving for sameness
Posted by: herbivore
» RE: Oppression is not avoided by striving for sameness
Posted by: FedUp
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Posted by: JamesSorrell on Jan 20, 2006 3:17 PM
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Skin color means nothing! God scattered people at the
Tower of Babel all over the planet, confused their
languages and changed their appearance & skin color to
keep them from "going overboard"!
Different skin color is like cars rolling off the
assembly line in Detroit....It's the same basic car,
just a different paint job!
A car painted red (or white, or black, or green, etc.)
is no better or worse than any other color....it's
just a matter of choice!!
Prejudice is a form of insanity! UNEQUAL opportunity,
arrogance & the greed of
Oligarchs/Dictators/BigBusiness is really to blame for
poverty!
(Especially in the USA, where Abraham Lincoln once
said: "Equal opportunity for every American in the
unfinished work of America!"
See--->"LOVE is the Real Thing" on the forums listed
below.......
http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=15311
or
http://jimsorrell.proboards33.com or
http://www.bev.net/users/homepages/JamesSorrell or
http://thekeeperoftheflame.blogspot.com
jamessorrell2003@yahoo.com
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Posted by: evanstucker on Feb 6, 2006 8:35 AM
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Yeah, yeah... I'm pessimistic. Kinda grumpy this morning.
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Posted by: ebdotkom on Feb 13, 2006 12:17 PM
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The NOLA/Katrina images we see on our TV screens every day include all people getting shafted. Just ask Trent Lott.
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