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Readers Write: 'Strapped' for Adulthood

By Onnesha Roychoudhuri, AlterNet. Posted January 17, 2006.


AlterNet readers debate the current state of the economy and its implications for younger generations.

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Jodie Janella Horn's recent review of Tamara Draut's book "Strapped: Why America's 20- and 30-Somethings Can't Get Ahead," sparked one of the most in-depth dialogues the AlterNet community has ever seen. With some 330 comments, it was evident Draut had touched on an issue that resonated with many of AlterNet's readers.

One notable theme was that Draut's book struck a nerve with readers of all ages -- not just those in their 20s and 30s. Lizmv started off the conversation by noting that, "As a 51-year-old single mom whose kids are now finally out of the house, I am still struggling to pay off the debt incurred by dentist bills and helping the kids get through college as best I could. I have just come to the conclusion that I will NEVER own a home, so I will never have that security. I expect to work until the day I die."

Another embittered reader, monkeywrench, was "retired prematurely" explored the difficulty of making ends meet when you are "overqualified," which is a euphemism for "too old, with looming health and pension issues." And, just try to enter another field at a low level as a middle-aged newbie -- employers think of you as retarded; otherwise, why would you be shooting so low?

McJulie wondered, "What in hell is America going to do with 50 million pissed-off ex-employees and starving 'retirees'?" Suggesting that readers unite in a "revolution with the oldest revolutionaries in history."

The younder generation volunteered many personal accounts that bolstered Draut's argument. hbw noted that even modest lifestyles can leave Americans in debt: "We are not taking expensive vacations. No big-screen TV, no boat, no drug habits. Well, some prescription stuff, with a modest co-pay. We have a 3-bedroom home in an older neighborhood. We have one child, with all his incidental school expenses. I take Metro to work, carrying a cheap sack lunch in my backpack. In sum, we are not extravagant, but we are in hock up to our collective eyeballs."

AndyF thought there might be a little too much whining going on. "Oh, come on," he writes. "Please start to look closely at your expenses and separate needs from wants, and start to cut back on the wants. You've chosen to live in an expensive urban area and complain about it. My wife and I made the decision to live a life which we enjoy and doesn't require a lot of income. This meant leaving expensive urban areas behind and bringing up our children in a rural area."

Where one chooses to live, and the subsequent costs of transportation, were both factors brought up time and again throughout the discussion.

While AndyF encouraged moving to a rural area in order to cut expenses, other readers found this to be an unrealistic option. geming noted that "Some of us do social justice work that requires that we live in the urban areas we serve. It really isn't a choice for me to move out and live in a nice place and then commute back. And frankly, as a person of color with a culture different than average rural or suburban folks, I really don't consider it a choice to move where nobody looks like me."

jasonix adds that, while the cost of living is lower, a well-paying job may be hard to come by: "I investigated Erie, Pa., and western/central N.Y., where house prices are all below $50,000. If I could make $50,000 there, I'd be in swell shape. But try taking a look in the help wanteds -- the only jobs are for Wal-mart (minimum wage) and farm workers ($7.50)."

Some readers confessed that they had been considering moving to Canada, where they felt their tax money would more directly benefit them. ssegallmd wrote: "Sure, we Americans pay taxes in the same ballpark as citizens of traditional socialist governments. That's because we live in a welfare state. It's just that that it's not the general welfare or the welfare of its needy that America's government is interested in, but rather, the welfare of the greedy (i.e., very wealthy)." okcamp said simply, "The way I see it, my grandparents left their motherlands to come here for a better life, and I likely will do the same."

jasonix took the dialogue global, writing that his sister moved to India and "has a better life than she did here in the states, where she worked 80 hours a week for a gross pay of less than $50K. Now that she lives in India with her husband, who outsourced himself rather than lose his job here, she can be a stay-at-home mom, raise her children, send them to private school and go back to college for an advanced degree."

abbie from the U.K. joined the conversation, saying, "I have never been more thankful in my life. When I compare our situation to the sheer grinding poverty and desperation a family like ours would be experiencing in the U.S., it almost makes me wish I had a deity to thank. I am a sick former teenage mother with a formerly very sick child and a husband who makes minimum wage, and we have no debt, no looming financial catastrophe with the potential to ruin our lives, and our standard of living seems to be equal to that of most single young professionals posting here. That's just wrong."

drone addressed all those busy packing their bags, entreating them to stick around to fight the good fight: "I considered the same thing, but the U.S. really can't be lost to these punks. They'll follow you around the globe if unchecked. The fight's here, and the fight's now. The right's been spoiling for this for years. I say we give it to them. Hard. Like any other bully, they're cowards when they have to get in the ring themselves. They won't hold up. Give 'em the wood."

Some readers joining the conversation thought that the discussed economic problems have more to do with young Americans' expectations than realities. tone writes, "You guys can't see the forest for the trees. You want the right job in the right town with the right house and a kid or two to complete the package. You also expect that that job will automatically pay enough for you to have all those things. What we need to realize is that all those things are not birthrights. Time to let go of the myth of the American dream, folks."

crusty thought similarly: "Things are more expensive then they used to be, it is true, but nothing a little nose-to-the-grindstone thinking and action wont take care of. I still believe that if you want something badly enough there are ways of doing it -- creativity, financial prudence and true grit and determination are the stuff that dreams are made of."

The American dream is largely based on the notion that the United States is a meritocracy. Yet some of our readers pursuing the American dream via higher education felt that their knowledge was highly undervalued. owleyes laments, "We went to college, we found ourselves a profession; we did everything we thought we were supposed to do, and in the end it wasn't enough. I make $30K a year teaching high school. I love it and would never consider switching careers. Indeed, I feel very lucky to have the job I do. But I don't own a house or a car, and may not ever."

artkansas, using those higher-level math skills, conducted an "income/inflation inventory" in which he discovered that "despite getting a degree and 25 years of experience and continued study in a high-tech field, I was paid in real terms about what I made in my first minimum-wage job after high school."

cultureindustries, returning to graduate school after 20 years of working, figured out that "in the '70s I could pay my tuition with about 225 minimum-wage hours of work. Now my tuition is nearly 3,000 minimum-wage hours. In other words, you can't make enough money in a year of working more than full time to make the nut."

So, it seems we're all in debt. But how responsible are we for digging the holes we're in? laura153 says she has "the same story as everyone above. Five years out of college, lots of student loan debt. Good job, low pay. Live in L.A., can't afford to live. Blah, blah, blah. What I 'm not hearing, though, is anyone taking responsibility. I'll be the first to admit that racking up $20,000 in credit card debt when I was unemployed for a year and a half was a BAD idea. Even though it was for things like gas, groceries, electric bills, etc. And even though all those companies that I leaned on to provide me the credit to make those purchases are making an absolute fortune off the interest and fees they're charging me, I'm done whining about it."

johnjord thinks that college grads should take a more serious look at going into a trade. "I know that the old adage that without college you can't get anywhere … But there is an alternative way of making a living. It's called a trade. Funny I am as well off or better off than many of my peers who went to college."

NthnBrazil broke up the party by proclaiming, "I am mystified." Laying out his and his wife's earnings and expenditures, NthnBrazil wonders why it is that, as a member of the "lower middle" class, he feels that he's doing better than many of the other AlterNet commenters.

kelly.nickell shares a personal story in response: "In 2001, I too had a wife, a good job, a home, and was thankful for it. The job went away, then the wife, the home, then the savings, then 401K, then the credit cards, the self-esteem. Throw in a few natural disasters, a few self-inflicted bad decisions, a few incurable diseases, death, lack of health insurance, no credit."

While kelly.nickell's was a lengthy list of woe, ClaudLaw noted that the principle behind the story was applicable to nearly everyone: "We are all a paycheck away from disaster. Period. Ninety-five percent of us are just one medical bill, one layoff, one natural disaster, or one ill-informed decision away from poverty."

Perpetually flirting with financial disaster was most unappealing to those young readers considering children. Many commenters noted that adding children to the equation would simply break the bank. Fawkes13 writes, "I have a great life, some debt, I own my own home and make about $45K a year. I see myself enjoying myself as much as I do now -- going out to eat, international travel, movies, Manhattan nightlife once in a while, etc. But only if I NEVER have kids … What kind of "family values" make it basically impossible to afford children?

538T wanted to talk solutions -- and proposed community living as one of the few feasible options. "I work full-time, study full-time, and live below the poverty line, but I live a pretty comfortable life. Along with seven other like-minded students, I live in a nice, big house ran as an urban collective. Individually, we don't make enough to eat or pay rent, but by pooling our resources together, we prosper (it's all about the economies of scale)."

Project on Student Debt ended the discussion by pointing out, "The number of comments that have been made here is a testament to the magnitude of this problem. We all feel its effects, and it's about time that people started talking about it."

We couldn't agree more.

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Onnesha Roychoudhuri is an editorial fellow at AlterNet.

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Question: Is this selfishness? What matters in life?
Posted by: Kneel on Jan 16, 2006 6:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More and more I wonder if the issue here is people who thought they were immune. Is it food or not having space for silver candelabras?

Would they be so concerned about the way we're squandering resources if it wasn't touching them, if they could have the car and the quarter-acre lawn and the granite countertops?

These things have been making the people who have them unhappy for a long time. One woman I know married into wealth, but if anything that's more isolating - she's now a mother with young children but without nearby relatives and neighbors and often lonely (solution: vodka).

I would like to see far better distribution of our resources, but a first priority is the people who really aren't making it. A lot more good can be done with a lot less at that level.

And it's not just 20 and 30 year olds. Try being, say, 53 and in the same situation... or 63... 73. That's a lot scarier.

Would those who complain of student loan debts you prefer not to have them, i.e., not to have had the chance to go to college?

I'm also skeptical of the goals and complaints, such as that one can't own a car or a house. That assumes these are worthy expenditures of our resources.

A car? I live where a car isn't necessary, and vastly prefer that. Everyone can ride a bike, but it's dangerous because of attitudes of drivers. The US used to have a good rail network, and could again.

I don't see even very expensive houses making much difference to the life satisfaction of the people living in them, and the best living situation of my life (to date) was seven people and a dog crammed into an apartment in Madrid (where I'd moved because the flight to Spain was about the same as my rent, and a friend hooked me up with work). Every morning I woke up happy that I would be getting to spend time with my housemates that day.

We had luxuries, like going to the produce market and spending about ten bucks to get so much food it was hard to carry, then cooking up a feast together.

Point being, even if many people did have more cash, they seem to be a bit confused on to what to do with it. We can always squander our resources. Perhaps instead of complaining about their personal debts, as individuals, our focus should be on working together to make good use of our resources as a society.

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The way it is
Posted by: Samantha Vimes on Jan 17, 2006 1:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Friends borrow from friends to pay medical bills, or cash in a 401K if the doctor bills are really huge.

People lose jobs, get new ones that pay nearly as much... but not quite enough to pay basic rent, and utilities, and move back to their folks.

Entire career paths are lost as jobs outsource.

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More on this topic from Alternet
Posted by: LMNOP on Jan 17, 2006 4:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
See The Mugging of the American Dream, The Young And The Debtless, and Burying College Grads in Debt for more of the same on the loss of economic opportunity for younger Americans.

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Jasonix
Posted by: Ayla87 on Jan 17, 2006 5:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are homes in Central NY really under $50k?

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» RE: Jasonix Posted by: bettsoff
Different point of view
Posted by: xyz2002 on Jan 17, 2006 5:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is it really that bad? Of course not. Let's say the rent. Could you share a room (I am not talking about the appartment) with others? Why everyone has to have his or her own room? Why could you share a ride to work? Could you cook the meal everyday, as it would only cost you less than $200 a month? You definitely could spend much less, but you don't want to and you want to have all the stuffs BEFORE you could move up in the wage ladder. If you have a college degree and still could not live a decent live (I am not talking about owning a house or something like that), you need to ask yourselve if you took a hard major and hard courses in the college to really improve your value or you just took something easy and enjoyable. The rule is the hard major or courses you took the more valuable you would be in the job market. There are so many college graduates and a lot of them just cruise through in college not really learning much hard stuff. I am talking about all this from my personal experience as I am an immigrant coming to America 15 years ago with only $500 in my pocket and lived through my time in school spending less than $500 a month. I know quite many young guys out there making a decent living. I don't like the policies of the Republic party especially those of religions right, but I do notice that they still get a lot of votes (at least ~50%) that means at least ~50% of the people are doing fine in this economy. The problem may be in the gap between the haves and have not, but I do see a lot of people spend far more than they could affort. Just one last question. How much do you spend on your all communications/entertainments, including phones/TV/cable/internet/movies/eatout?

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» RE: Different point of view Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: Different point of view Posted by: jareilly
mlblock
Posted by: mlblock on Jan 17, 2006 5:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We used to live in southern California. We left because it was too damned expensive. We wanted to own our own home. We left behind my step-kids in search of our new life. I work from home, so could live anywhere.

It has been disastrous. My husband could not find work that paid adequately. Lower cost of living=lower pay and fewer jobs. We could have gone and lived in the "sticks" affordably, but our children would have been isolated/surrounded by people who think Confederate flags are cool and teenage pregnancy is A-OK. We missed my husband's boys terribly, despite several long visits. The separation from them was so obviously wrong.

By some fabulous stroke of luck, a year after we left California, my husband was able to be re-hired at his job there. He's there now working to try to cover our moving expenses. We spent huge amounts of money and went through huge stress because we thought there HAD to be a better way. We were wrong. We're going to go cram our family into a little apartment and thank God for what we have, and pay off our debts as best we can, and love on our kids and enjoy the sunshine. Amen.

The changes in the economy that are indebting people are, I believe, the only thing that will drive Americans into a more sustainable and cooperative way of life. Car-sharing, cooperative living (i.e. "intentional community"), and re-creating our cities so that they are livable and functional wouldn't happen as long as everyone was fat and happy and procreating like mad in their suburban McMansions.

Go to www.ic.org. It's the wave of the future...

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» RE: mlblock Posted by: crusty
» RE: mlblock Posted by: tcx2
» RE: mlblock Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: mlblock Posted by: mlblock
stuff
Posted by: crusty on Jan 17, 2006 6:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems as though the thing that is lacking in this society that is really quite simple is learning how to budget, priortize, and following through. The best thing I ever did was to seek financial advice... through that I have been able to see what I spend, and start a savings program. I purchased a small piece of property as an investment last year. Yes its rough, but if you want something badly enough you can get it. I do not deserve it, I earned it.

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» You are off point! Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: You are off point! Posted by: crusty
» RE: You are off point! Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: You are off point! Posted by: crusty
» RE: You are off point! Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: You are off point! Posted by: crusty
» wedding Posted by: sln70
» RE: wedding Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: wedding Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: wedding Posted by: sln70
» RE: wedding Posted by: Lizmv
» RE: stuff Posted by: kelly.nickell
RE: B38Ts Comment
Posted by: Arianna on Jan 17, 2006 6:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also live in a shared house (6 of us total), and never would have gone that route if I hadn't ended up in fairly dire financial straits. However, it turned out to be one of the most enjoyable decisions I ever made! The feeling of living in a community (rather than the complete isolation my parter and I felt when it was just the two of us, with no connection to the community around us. I know I'm lucky - it's hard to find that many people who can all get along well enough to live together - but it's been so wonderful that we're looking at ways to expand to our other friends and make it more permanent!

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We Want to think it's in our control
Posted by: sln70 on Jan 17, 2006 6:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Part of what I'm reading today sounds like a lecture on "how to live within your means." And I agree - this is vital. I must admit that though I've seen some very lean times myself I've adhered to the guidelines set forth in these postings.. Live frugally, think creatively, realize that you don't need things to be happy.

But -

There are circumstances beyond control that can put even those of us who've done the "right" things into financial situations that are desperate.

By telling people that they should budget differently and lower their expectations of wealth, essentially you are clinging to the belief that all of it is within our control. Sometimes that is not the case.

The working poor are often quite trapped. Student debt incurred by taking a 'soft subject' in university is something most of us learned too late was a bad idea. Parents, teachers, counsellors, loan officers, registrars - all of these people tell us when we're impressionable and young that higher education is the ticket. They don't say "but only if you take engineering."

Illness or injury are other serious factors. And don't think Canada is much better in that regard. Plenty of people are impoverished when they get sick or hurt. We have social programs but they take forever to get into and are tenuous at best as the circumstances are reviewed regularly and rules change all the time.

The long and the short of it is that the control we have in budgeting wisely is offset by luck. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it is not.

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Someday
Posted by: bettsoff on Jan 17, 2006 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someday I'm going to say something insightful enough to garner a nod from Alternet editors. Really. I will! But until then I'll just stick with the off-the-cuff stuff.

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» RE: Someday Posted by: Madam Hatter
Cooperation and Frustration
Posted by: funboy on Jan 17, 2006 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My wife and I are much like many of the readers here. We're in our 30's, lived through the bad times in 2001, were homeless, helped by the foodbank and are both highly educated. We've managed to pull ourselves out of it and have become very successful in doing so. How? Well, we learned alot about cooperation and how, generally, people don't naturally cooperate with one another in north american society. I'm as guilty as anyone. It's a "me first" mentality. The thing is, we live in the "progressive dream" called Canada...

My wife has started a very successful business in an incredibly impoverished area of the Country. She's tried to enlist members of her community and leaders to promote and support her company (which is community owned, she's just the manager) and none have really backed her. Alot have complained that the jobs she's providing are not good enough or only seasonal (this is an area where unemployment hits 80% and higher). Other employees complain that they work too much at 40 hours a week (it's a startup). Other situations that have occurred were other people stealing her ideas instead of working with her to build up the whole community. They were generally interested in their own prosperity.

During our digging out of the poverty we were in we also came across alot of people that said "you can't do that, or that's not possible". These people would frustrate our ideas and generally negate them.

Take a look around, chances are you know intelligent people. You probably all have some million dollar idea, but you're also looking to make a million from it and chances are if you tell anyone, they might steal it from you, when really we should all be bringing each other up and not only focussing on "me first".

Naomi Klien has been writing about workers who have been reclaiming closed factories in Argentina. The workers cooperate, pay the bills and make the management decisions. They occupy factories that have been shut down by banks. How many factories exist like that in your community? How many people around you are capable of running and managing those factories without the mentality of profit centred focus? If you, or a group of unemployed workers restarted a factory, who would really notice?

There used to be a time when one person or family called on the entire community to help raise a barn. So let's start raising barns people!!!

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Debt and interest
Posted by: ghoster on Jan 17, 2006 8:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Doesn't anyone consider that fact that the interest charged on credit cards is over the top? Usury laws were repealed in favor of letting the credit card companies unfettered leeway in the setting of interest rates for varying reasons. Can the 29% rate be fair? One missed phone payment and they charge the max, on a thousand dollar credit line you pay almost three hundred dollars a year, and that is compounded. Is it just me that thinks this is wrong?

Plus the wages haven't gone up in real terms for years, so what is the answer? More immigration to drive the wages down further. Outsourcing? Sure low wage jobs but not low wage expenses. If the wages remain low then shouldn't the cost of living remain low also? Just sayin.

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» RE: Debt and interest Posted by: sln70
truer
Posted by: montana freeman on Jan 17, 2006 9:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what ideas are out there in easy to accomplish terms?

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the snowball is alot bigger now than in the 80s
Posted by: saywhat? on Jan 17, 2006 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when i got out of highschool in the late 70s, the first job i worked at included health benefits, and after 4 years , i was paid $8.50/hour. why that seems like reasonable pay in 2006 to a post highschool graduate is a mystery to me.

certainly budgets have to be honed to get by these days, that includes everyone in middle class as well. thinking out of the box, and coming up with creative sources of income, and cutting expeditures has to be part of the solution, unless you want to hand over your life to the credit card loan sharks.

i am no economist but something is wrong when a person my age becomes highly skilled in an area , then loses their job because of a business closing , and has to start at a new job at entry level pay with no benefits.

one thing i did do right as a 23 year old was join a union and learn a trade. how that plays into the economic forecast now i don't know. i left the union, with a retirement pension 5 years ago, and just recently a buddy of mine still working told me it was a good thing that i switched careers as the jobs are dwindling

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There will be no bags of Rice.
Posted by: gar on Jan 17, 2006 10:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No good ideas are easily accomplished. In addition, I have to agree with the writer above who said that there are just some things that are simply out of our control - just ask the people who lived in Ward Nine in New Orleans.

Some of the things that have the biggest economic impact on our lives right now are being decided at levels so far above most of us that we might as well be ants to those who are making the decisions. Right now, our government is so far in debt that it takes 20% of our GNP just to pay the interest.

The unfortunate, cruel thing is that all this money the government is borrowing is not going into national infrastructure like schools, roads, hospitals, and public transportation. What is happening is the money is being borrowed from China, Japan, and a few other nations. It is then paid out to fat-cat corporations in the form of no-bid contracts for things like faulty "bullet-proof" vests and inadequately armored Humvees for our soldiers to use in senseless, pointless wars that should never have been fought in the first place.

Other money sponges are the ridiculous tax-breaks given to oil companies who are already experiencing record breaking profits and the giant pharmaceutical firms who use patents based on governmental research to charge that same government ten dollars a pill without having to give a quantity discount because their backroom deal says they don't have to.

Now, when it comes time to pay back this money to the foreign governments, who do you think picks up the tab. It is you and I who are out here scrounging for a living, trying to feed our kids, and yes, by God - trying to live the American dream.

And it is not going to get any better. It is going to get worse. We now owe over eight trillion dollars to foreign governments - that’s $8,000,000,000,000. Figure the interest on that. This year, the deficit will run at least four hundred billion and that’s not counting the trade deficit.

If you think things are bad now, just wait. In effect, Bush and Co. has sold our children and grandchildren into slavery because our progeny will be working more and more for less and less. If you want a glimpse of the future, see The Constant Gardener. See all those people living in tin-roofed slums. That’s the future of our great grandchildren. Unfortunately, there won't be any UN planes flying over, dropping out bags of rice.

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» RE: There will be no bags of Rice. Posted by: J. Walter Plinge
Brave New World
Posted by: redjenny on Jan 17, 2006 10:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Notice no one is saying they want all the luxuries in the world without working. They are saying we are ready and willing to work hard, where are the secure, fair-paying jobs? Whining isn't what people here are doing - they are using themselves as examples.

How hard you work is only slightly related to how much money you make. That is a fact. Do you really think your average CEO or middle manager works harder than a $5.50 wage slave or farm worker? You don't know. You cannot make that judgement - you might say that the CEO works 60 hours a week, and has so much responsibility, blah blah blah, but the minimum wage worker might work 2 jobs (to survive probably HAS TO) at 80 hours a week. The maid who cleans the CEO's house - she is lazy?

It isn't even a case of a, say, bad harvest or tough year that makes us all tighten our belts - there are people getting richer while others get poorer. Instability and uncertainty controls us - the banks own our houses, an illness can ruin us financially, it takes more and more investment to break into the job market (education) ...

Meanwhile fat cats fight imperialist wars, pat each others backs, and stick dollar bills in each others pockets. These fat cats do not produce - they trade bits of false economy. It is crazy - I mean, really crazy...

We have every right to be us pissed off, and hopefully DO something about it, but our dystopian society is attempting to emulate Brave New World - the excess consumption predicated on a manufactured "need" for disposable products, the heirarchical societal stratification, the incredible self-indulgence.
Red Jenny

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» RE: Brave New World Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: Brave New World Posted by: tcx2
» RE: Brave New World Posted by: tcx2
» RE: Brave New World Posted by: redjenny
Economy & demography part #1
Posted by: Falang on Jan 17, 2006 4:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two thing that were not discuss here are the economy (the big picture side) and demography.

This kind of economy with strap people at the base and people getting more and more rich at the top of the pyramid seem to work in short term but it and will be very disastrous on the long term and it is coming. People now in middle class are not trying to make to the top of the pyramid but just trying to stay afloat and trying not to go down and that is only for the people of the higher part of the middle class, for the other disaster is looming at the door every month. Here is part of what can and will go bad in a near future: the outsourcing of many more manufacturing jobs in cheap labour countries, outsourcing of white collar jobs, import of cheap product from those countries, US government borrowing money just to stay afloat from countries like China and this money + interest helping a country like China to develop more and more technology that will rip off more and more jobs in USA, people will have less and less jobs in USA so less people to pay the huge deficit, looting of public money to the interest of rich people and corporation, the real estate bubble will burst so people who invest a lot of money will loose so people with less money or no jobs will buy less and because of that the economy will go down even further. You can think that this is a bit to pessimistic but it is not because the economic trends are coming from a bubble because they include people making money on stock exchange but this money does not create any wealth in the population. On the top of that you can add the illegal migrant workers that the US federal government let coming in the country to have a cheap labour that will put pressure on the salary of American.
This bubble economy may work in short term but not for the long run and I can not see anything at this time that will change something to that grim picture.

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Economy & demography part #2
Posted by: Falang on Jan 17, 2006 4:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now come the demography, it is a fact that middle class baby boomers have lived the American dream and life was good for a lot of them. Their home are paid, they have retirement plan, saving and healthcare. All they want now is less taxes on them, what they were promise for social security, be able to buy very cheap stuff at the store and they have a big political weight because of their number and they don’t want to much change just to help the other less fortunate American. They will have this political weight for many more years to come so only a economic crash can change thing for now. Some of you are saying here that the Democrat are no better than Republican, you are right they are doing politic to please the people who have the political weight.

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Is it any wonder
Posted by: bettsoff on Jan 18, 2006 4:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With the collective "It's only going to get worse" sentiment expressed in the majority of the above comments....is it any wonder people of my generation have developed anti-social attitudes? Only the crazy and the stupid would whole-heartedly participate in a system that is designed to rip them off. Ah well, no matter. The sooner the financial apocalypse occurs, the sooner I'll have a big fat advantage by knowing how to grow food and how to butcher a deer.

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Is this a prop
Posted by: J. Walter Plinge on Jan 18, 2006 7:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.....
Is this a propaganda piece or what? 360 responses and 2 authors and nobody is talking about real causes here. A couple have done some good work at calculating past and previous conditions – but why is there no discussion of the causes?

In the 1970s Sixty Minutes did a story on Brazil and the fact that they had no middle class: Brazil had peasants and they had Filthy Rich people but nothing in between. Sixty Minutes said the same thing was happening to the U.S. The term ''the disappearing middle class'' has been in use ever since … except here on this page.

In the 1980s the magazine ''Dollars and Sense'' published a graph that looked like an 'X' – the descending arm was corporate tax, and the ascending arm was personal income tax. The shift of corporate tax onto individuals is virtually complete. This is all being done on purpose - by republicans and democrats alike.

The book ''Turbo-capitalism : Winners And Losers In The Global Economy,'' by Edward Luttwak (Harper Collins, c1999) describes it perfectly and with all the arrogance and bombast of a neocon one would expect: apropos of the title, he calls teachers 'losers.' Not high school teachers … COLLEGE teachers. Like I say, this is all being done on purpose. The object is to get wages down to being competitive with third world nations. The tools they have been using seem to be working well:

--- UNION BUSTING. Not just keeping unions from forming, but manipulating the ones that do exist to NOT represent their members

CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE ......

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» RE: Is this a propag Posted by: J. Walter Plinge
poverty is its own oppression
Posted by: nighthouse66 on Jan 23, 2006 6:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
its quite a relief to know that i am not the only 30-something chick who finds it almost impossible to get by.
i just recently bought the nicest automobile i have ever owned- a 1994 GMC van with 60,000 miles on it. to do this, i had to move in with a friend as a live-in maid, rent free, which is a 40 minute drive from my job. at this job i make about what i made about a decade ago. and i just recently got a raise.
i am an extremely intelligent person who is largely self-educated. on my own i have studied 19th century french literature and the french language, have read all the classics, have taught myself guitar and how to fix my cars, among other things. i would have loved to have gotten a college degree, but finances always forced me out of school, where i discovered to my dismay not the hotbed of intellectual ferment i always imagined it would be, but a legion of drones just wanting to get the grade.
people don't have the passion i believe they must have had at one time. no one has the time for great causes. they don't want their minds expanded anymore, they want to pay the bills. they go to school to get a career and then come out with nothing. the mediocrity of the educational system is not always the answer.
there are so many bottom-to-top problems in this country that it is difficult to focus on one. but consumerism, and the need to acquire things, which leaves us no time for the soul....that is a whole other issue. one doesn't have the time for contemplation. just to take a walk, and not even to get the heart rate up, perhaps just to look at the flowers. this is simply disappearing.
i am also alarmed by how little people value the intellect in this country. in france, artists, writers, and musicians are revered. they are understood there. in america our greatest artists are those that were hated by the people who were the Establishment,and it is those same people who turn those artists into icons, thus rendering them safe and consumable, their ideas and soul nothing more than a t-shirt graphic. the shallowness of modern life is one horrible consequence of poverty- be it working poverty or true, bugs-in-the-rice foodstamp poverty. and those that are living paycheck to paycheck are dropping to the lowest rung fast.
i think that many of our best and brightest, the people with the most passion for life and the best ideas, are going to leave this place. i know i am. and its rather sad.

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stop the generation baiting
Posted by: cricribis on Feb 5, 2006 6:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find this pitting of one generation against another extremely bizarre, not to mention counter productive. What is this new hatred of the baby boomers? They are not universally making it in the way that is suggested. Try being a single mother of three in her 40’s and then complain about the baby boomers.

While it seems obvious that it is much more difficult to be a yuppie these days than it was in the past, I think the plight of the working class of any generation is much more dire than that of a young college educated minority (only about 30% of the population). Instead of generation baiting, what is really necessary is a discussion of the fact that, apart from a very small minority, it is much more difficult now for everyone than it was in the past.

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