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The Death of Hunting

By Christina Larson, Washington Monthly. Posted January 9, 2006.


As landowners close off their private property, many hunters have hung up their shotguns. It's up to progressives to preserve hunting -- if we even want to.

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Colo, Iowa (population 900), a town about an hour northeast of Des Moines, is little more than a rail crossing, a grain elevator, and a dwindling main street. But at 7 a.m. on the opening morning of Iowa's celebrated pheasant season, the lights were on in a one-story building on Main Street where the Colo Lions Club was sponsoring a pancake breakfast for hunters. I arrived with two pheasant hunters, the three of us clad in the ubiquitous orange vests and caps of the sport, with dogs waiting in kennels in the back of a pickup. We were looking for a place to hunt.

Inside, the scene resembled the cantina from "Star Wars" in one way: It was a strategic place to gather information and try to seal a deal. Men sat around folding tables swapping stories about the birds they bagged last year, but also grousing about the difficulty of finding land where they could hunt. Iowa is 97 percent private land, so to have much shot at a pheasant, you pretty much need a landowner's permission to roam his fields. That's getting harder to come by these days, with old farms being sold and fence posts hung with new signs that warn, "No Trespassing."

As my companions and I filled up on pancakes, a friend of theirs walked over and pulled up a chair next to us. After helping himself to a plate, he glanced around slyly, leaned forward, and passed us an enticing tip: He had a friend who had a friend who was a local landowner and might give us permission to hunt on his land. We should drive down past Colo Bogs and look out for Joe Quaker in a grey van. Soon we were on the road, rumbling over gravel roads to the appointed meeting place. When no grey van appeared, we drove on, forced to look elsewhere for hunting ground. Occasionally, we passed hunters tromping through roadside drainage ditches, among the only public turf still available to those pheasant seekers without access to someone else's land.

This hunt for a spot to hunt is increasingly a part of the sportsmen's pursuit today. In the terminology of those who follow the problem, "access" is the buzzword phrase. "When you ask hunters directly what their biggest concern is, out of 20-odd possible choices, land access is most often number one," says Mark Duda of Responsive Management, a firm that conducts surveys for state wildlife departments. The scramble to find land can cause friction between hunters and landowners--in at least one instance, with tragic results. In November, a Hmong immigrant was sentenced to life in prison for killing six hunters in Wisconsin after a trespassing dispute erupted when he wandered onto their land.

The increasing difficulty of finding land to hunt on is, not surprisingly, nudging ever more hunters to hang up their shotguns. In Iowa, the number of hunters in state has dropped 26 percent in a decade, according to the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, and other states have experienced similar declines. One in three former hunters told the agency that not having a place to hunt motivated their decision to abandon their hobby. Around the country, more sportsmen each year are parking their deer stands and duck decoys in the garage.

Even so, hunting is unlikely to disappear entirely. The ranks of hunters may dwindle, but hunting itself retains a cultural resonance, calling to mind a time when pioneers depended on ingenuity and perseverance to settle the frontier and evoking a pastoral nostalgia for farm life. Americans like to think of hunting as a national tradition, even as they tool around suburban parkways in their Subaru Outbacks. Hunting and fishing are touchstones for a world that many suburban and exurban dwellers value, even if their daily lives no longer reflect it.

In American politics, few causes are more potent than those defending threatened heritage symbols. Real or perceived attacks on school prayer, the pledge of allegiance, and the etiquette of saying "Merry Christmas" have all been whipped into political maelstroms. That's largely because conservatives recognized, and then exploited, a latent but largely unorganized anger.

A comparable frustration exists among hunters over land access. But conservatives haven't tapped into it because the source of this anxiety isn't a liberal bogeyman, like elitism or big government. Instead, it's the closing-off of private property and sale of public land, something many on the right defend. That means progressives could find themselves in the unexpected position of being the champions of hunters. Those states that have effectively slowed or reversed the hunting decline have done so with programs that use government to open up private lands voluntarily to public recreation. This time, it may be progressive government that holds out the best hope for preserving an American tradition.

A wink from Uncle Fred

If Americans don't hunt in the numbers that they used to, hunting goods stores aren't in danger of going out of business just yet. Hunting and fishing remain major national pastimes: In 2001, 13 million Americans headed out to hunt and 34 million to fish. The total number of "sportsmen" -- men and women who hunt or fish -- is 38 million today, nearly one in eight Americans. But while that's a crowd, it's a shrinking one. Over the past two decades, the percentage of Americans who hunt or fish has tumbled from 26 to 18 percent; the absolute number of sportsmen has fallen from 50 million to 38 million.

The decline is related to the ripple effects of suburbanization, the gradual century-long movement of Americans from farms to cities and suburbs. Thirty years ago, many suburban residents still had relatives who lived in the country, relatives who would welcome them back to the farm to hunt on fall weekends. Now those relatives are largely gone -- or suburban dwellers themselves.

Today, more than two out of three sportsmen live in metropolitan areas, where their children grow up less familiar with firearms, removed from daily contact with blood and dirt, and often less comfortable with the pursuit of game as sport. Just as successive generations of immigrant families lose touch with the language and customs of the old country, the descendants of rural America simply don't have the same strong cultural attachment to the land and to hunting.

Yet there isn't an ocean separating the Old World from the New. Americans who want to reclaim their hunting heritage are at most a few hours' drive from doing so. Likewise, there's nothing preventing certain aspects of country culture from making their way into town. Other pastimes once thought of as rural, from country music to NASCAR, have found their fastest-growing markets in the suburbs of cities like Atlanta. But with hunting, the obstacles are twofold: Suburbanites are less likely to know anyone who owns land, and landowners -- particularly absentee owners -- are less inclined to open their property to strangers.

Back when more Americans lived a short walk from a relative or friend's farm, the way someone found a place to hunt or fish was simply by asking for permission. If Uncle Fred wasn't home, you knocked on the doors of nearby farmhouses. My dad, who grew up in Dubuque, Iowa, in the 1950s, recalls that when he and his friends stepped onto a farmer's porch, the first question was usually, "Where you boys from?" Once the farmer had sized them up, content that local boys would know not to fire a gun near cattle and not to leave gates open, they were usually sent on their way with a wink.

These days, knocking on a stranger's door, shotgun in hand, would likely meet with less success. For one thing, rural America has a greater proportion of absentee landowners: corporate farm owners, summer-home owners, investors who favor land over stocks. Those landowners who are home are more likely to eye unfamiliar hunters with suspicion. New arrivals from urban environments find it odd to share their lawns. Even old-timers like Uncle Fred are having second thoughts: Reports of trespassing and property damage are on the rise, especially near metro areas.

As "No Hunting" signs hang from more gates, ammo boxes sit unused in more sheds. In a poll of inactive New Jersey hunters, the complaint that there weren't enough places to hunt topped the list of reasons for quitting the sport. Slightly further down that list was a related concern: "too many hunters in the field." As available places to hunt diminish, hunters are squeezed onto fewer fields. In Iowa, crowds on the state's limited public hunting grounds have swelled even as hunting license sales have declined; an estimated 20 to 30 percent of Iowa hunters now hunt on the 1 percent of land that is managed for public hunting. What the crowds reveal is a growing mismatch between desire and opportunity.

Hunting with checkbooks

The old system of finding a spot to hunt was a favor among friends: "You knew the landowner down the road or got to know him," Rob Sexton at the U.S. Sportsman's Alliance remembers, "maybe shared your birds or offered to help seed a field or brought over some cakes at Christmas time." The new system is the market.

In recent years, an industry has sprung up to match hunter checkbooks with landowner bank accounts. Now, hunters can pay for exclusive recreational access to a property through a contract known as a "hunting lease." In 2001, leases averaged $670 per property for the hunting season, up 150 percent since 1991. To locate leasing opportunities, hunters post want ads on sites like Huntspot.com, listing what they are looking for and what they are willing to pay. A sportsman with the handle "Texas Law Dog," for example, wrote on behalf of five hunters seeking a hunting lease in the Lone Star panhandle; each was willing to pay $1,750 for land access.

Awarding access to the highest bidder tends to drive up prices, and consequently drives some people out. When Dave Hurteau, a columnist at Field and Stream magazine, solicited reader comments on the subject, he found he had touched a nerve. One reader wrote to say: "I had a lease that cost me $850 the first year, $1,100 the second, and $1,300 the third. Three years was enough for me." A hunter confirmed the high price of pay-to-play hunting: "Today, a fine South Texas lease with trophy potential [big game hunting] will run $3,500 a gun and up. And I mean way up--to around $10,000. It had gotten totally out of hand."

The rising cost of a place in the field has, according to Todd Peterson of Wisconsin's Department of Natural Resources, "priced some people out of the sport." Nationally, the number of hunters with below-median incomes has declined 16 percent in 15 years; over the same period, the number of hunters with above-median incomes has declined just 3 percent.

Tony Dean, a sort of Walter Cronkite of Midwestern sportsmen, who mixes walleye recipes with political commentary on the popular "Tony Dean Outdoors" show, says he fears a day when hunting and outdoor recreation become pastimes of the elite, something only the well-to-do can afford to enjoy. "Our forefathers left a European system in which wildlife and land belonged only to landowners," Dean told me. "We don't want to go back to being like the Europeans."

Blasting snowy egrets

Indeed, in Europe the land and the creatures on it traditionally belonged to the nobility, who alone had the right to pursue game. Even today, when debates over British fox hunting arise, the descendants of dukes generally defend it while the great-grandsons of cobblers generally oppose.

But in America, something like the opposite has long been the case. In 1683, William Penn's Charter for the Commonwealth enshrined the right of the average man to hunt and fish on all lands not enclosed for livestock. One hundred and fifty years later, in 1842, a New Jersey landowner and an oysterman found themselves in front of the Supreme Court, arguing over whether Mr. Waddell owned the oysters stuck in the mud on his property. The Court ruled that he did not, and it granted sovereignty of the waterways, the soil, and the critters in them to the people of each state.

Subsequent rulings refined the unique American system that exists today: Wildlife is held in trust by the state (managed by state wildlife agencies) for the benefit of the public, who collectively own it.

This idea of public ownership became the intellectual foundation for America's conservation movement a century ago, when commercial hunters had begun decimating buffalo herds and blasting snowy egrets with cannons in order to sell feathers for ladies' hats. Theodore Roosevelt and a handful of other naturalists -- most of them hunters -- argued that wildlife belonged to the public and therefore could not be obliterated by business interests.

"Public rights comes first and private interests second," Roosevelt wrote in 1905. "The conservation of wildlife and... all our natural resources are essentially democratic in spirit, purpose, and method." He outlawed commercial hunting and promoted measures -- such as bag limits and game seasons -- to ensure that wildlife could be enjoyed by future generations.

In a reversal of the tragedy of the commons, the American conservation movement has been far more successful, both in garnering popular support and in saving species from extinction, than efforts in countries where a different mentality exists toward ownership of wildlife. Whereas America brought back the elk, antelope, and white-tailed deer, in Britain boars, beavers, and bears no longer roam. Today, however, this heritage faces a new challenge, unfathomable in the days of Penn or Roosevelt. As Todd Bogenschutz of the Iowa Department of Natural Resources told me, "Our forefathers made wildlife public, but they screwed another thing up. They should have made access to wildlife public."

What's right with Kansas

From the window of an airplane, Kansas looks a lot like Iowa. Both are square states, checkered in agricultural fields, and more than 97 percent of the largely flat land is in private hands. A glimpse at census reports shows that they are also demographically similar. Iowans and Kansans alike have been moving from the countryside to cities like Des Moines and Wichita; the two states have seen similar single-digit population growth over the last decade, and they now rank 30th and 32nd in overall state populations. And both have beloved pheasant seasons, anticipated by hunters and promoted by small-town chambers of commerce.

There is one notable difference. While the number of hunters in Iowa has dropped 26 percent in a decade, in Kansas resident hunter numbers have remained steady and out-of-state license sales have increased. It isn't that Kansas has more enthusiastic sportsmen's groups or tastier birds or prettier fields than Iowa. What it does have is a state-run program that increases access to hunting grounds.

Kansas' Walk-In Hunting Access program (WIHA) -- delightfully called "wee-haw" -- works with private landowners to arrange for public hunting use of their land. It started a decade ago after the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks polled inactive hunters and found that access was the greatest obstacle to hunting.

In 1995, a pilot version of WIHA debuted in seven counties around Wichita, encompassing 10,000 acres of land. Since then, the program has grown to include over one million acres across the state. In early November, on opening morning of this fall's pheasant season, Mike Thompson and his son Brandon drove 40 minutes west from their home in Wichita, parked their truck beside a field of tall grass, and hopped out to don orange vests. Signs bordering the field read: "Walk-In Hunting Area, foot traffic only." Anyone with a $19 resident hunting license can hunt on WIHA land, and it's not hard to find convenient sites. Mike had noticed the signs for this particular spot while driving; he might also have found it by consulting an online atlas of available sites or flipping through a listing at Cabela's, the sportsmen's megastore.

The Thompsons were walking back to their truck, a bird in hand and a black lab trotting ahead of them, when a state wildlife department employee pulled up to distribute survey cards. Mike said he had relatives in Illinois with hunting land, but that was "a real long drive"--having a destination under an hour away was much better.

"I'd pay for this program," Mike offered. The biologist tipped his hat, a burnt orange cap that read "Kansas Hunting Access," and said, "There's an address on that card if you want to send a donation. We'll send you a hat."

That same morning, LaVeda Cross, longtime resident of the small town of Lewis, Kansas, watched hunters pour into restaurants where cooks had fired up griddles and coffee pots before dawn. Cross owns about 3,000 acres that members of her family homesteaded generations ago outside of town. Four years ago, she contacted the state wildlife agency about enrolling her land in WIHA; a wildlife biologist came out to inspect habitat conditions before offering her a contract and negotiating the compensation. Payments vary based on habitat and hunting seasons, but the average rate is $1.25 per acre in Kansas. (That's in addition to any money a landowner makes farming or grazing the land, or enrolling it in a federal conservation reserve program.)

Cross now lives in town; her son works the land. She tells me it's harder to make a living on the farm than it used to be, and the spike in fuel prices hit hard this harvest season. So, while the payment from the wildlife department is not a lot, "It's a simple way to make a little bit of money and help keep up income and repairs."

And there's another reason Cross likes WIHA: She's grateful for Charlie Swank, a wildlife biologist who wears his ten-gallon hat on official business and calls Cross regularly to keep her informed of what's happening on the land. Before she enrolled her land in WIHA, Cross had problems with hunters trespassing and taking pot shots at the windmills on the farm ("The ones who don't ask permission tend to be the reckless ones"). Now, the state has authority to watch over the land and assumes limited liability, which otherwise would rest with Cross and other landowners. More people use her land now, but according to Cross, there have been far fewer problems with property damage: "I really look forward to the time when the hunters come back," she tells me.

According to the department's annual surveys, just one in five landowners live on the enrolled property, though many, including Cross, reside nearby. With fewer farmers each overseeing larger plots of land, monitoring property has become a big concern. Eighty-one percent of landowners said that state patrol of their lands was a "very important" or "moderately important" component of the Kansas program. Each year, Cross says, she turns down an offer for a more lucrative private lease from a group of Colorado hunters, in part because of the "peace of mind" the state program provides.

Kansas is one of seven states that has operated a sizable access program (involving 500,000 or more acres) for a decade or longer. In each of these seven states, the number of hunters in state has either gone up, held steady, or dipped at a rate far slower than would otherwise be expected, given urbanization and other demographic changes.

During a decade in which the number of hunters nationally declined by 7 percent, those states with large established access programs collectively saw the number of hunters in state (resident and nonresident) rise by nearly 5 percent. Access programs are wildly popular with hunters, benefit landowners and farmers, and promise to slow hunting's decline, at least for the moment. The only question seems to be: Why aren't more states embracing them?

A bunch of biologists making policy

Given the escalating payments that private leasers are willing to make in order to secure land access, some skeptics question whether states can afford to be competitive in the deals they offer to landowners. As LaVeda Cross and other owners, especially the growing cadre of absentee landowners, can attest, part of the attraction of an access program is the peace of mind that comes with authorizing someone else to watch over your land. But some states have also worked with landowners to develop creative methods of compensation that meet their specific needs.

In Pennsylvania, for instance, the state offers landowners habitat consultations with state biologists and free seedlings in lieu of payments. Oregon has hired retired state troopers to beef up patrol of lands enrolled in its access program. The goal is to identify ways to supplement cash payments to landowners with services that draw upon the state's expertise--and provide a market advantage over private leasers.

In addition, cash-strapped state capitals, under political pressure from conservative activists to avoid raising taxes, are loathe to implement new programs that require additional funding. Even though hunting season can be a significant economic generator for rural economies -- filling main-street restaurants and roadside motels -- state legislatures have not clamored to start access program to attract more hunters. In almost every case (Oregon is the exception), the initiative to start such programs has come instead from state wildlife departments. "It's kinda dangerous," says Mike Mitchener, Kansas' wildlife section chief, "a bunch of biologists getting into policy and marketing."

What states have found, however, is that access programs can have benefits that exceed their costs. Kansas has paid for its $1.5 million program largely by redistributing its existing wildlife operating budget, which is only just over $3 million annually. Yet wildlife-related recreation is estimated to bring a hefty sum of $785 million to the state each year. In Oregon, a $2 surcharge on hunting licenses has funded its access program. But despite polls that show hunters in other states are willing to pay a modest charge to fund access programs, wildlife agencies have found it difficult to convince legislatures to embrace anything that looks like a tax hike.

If politicians realized the potential support for access programs beyond the nation's relatively small cadre of hunters, they might be more enthusiastic about the political benefits of expanding Americans' access to enjoy wildlife on private lands.

Wildlife belongs to all of us

Access programs are an elegant way to stem hunting's slow demise. Yet the potential of the idea extends far beyond hunting, for sportsmen aren't the only ones having a tough time finding a spot to enjoy nature. According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, "non-consumptive wildlife recreation," a category that includes such pursuits as nature hiking and bird watching, has also declined--13 percent in a decade. This drop has occurred even as visits to national parks have increased substantially, suggesting that Americans' demand for experiencing nature hasn't diminished, it's just outstripped the supply of accessible land.

Access programs could provide an answer. In Wyoming and other states, programs are being adapted to help anglers. In Pennsylvania, lands managed under the state's hunting access program already attract horseback riders and hikers. And because many access programs target acreage near metropolitan areas, giving landowners a small incentive not to sell out too quickly to developers (and developers a modest reason to hold off building on land they own), these programs ought to be popular with everyone from Boy Scouts to mountain-bike dealers to suburban anti-sprawl advocates.

It takes time for any new idea to percolate nationally, and the origins of access programs (in conversations in the field, and between regional fish and wildlife departments) are literally as grassroots as they come. But another reason these programs haven't yet caught fire in Washington may have more to do with the fact that conservatives currently dominate every foothold of federal government. Polling shows that hunters and anglers vote predominantly, though not overwhelmingly, Republican. On some issues, such as gun rights, the GOP has courted these groups intently. But on hunting and fishing land access, conservatives have routinely supported industrial interests over those of sportsmen.

The Bush administration has pushed sales of oil and gas drilling rights on public land in the West, much of it prime habitat and hunting and fishing range, sparking increasingly loud protests from sportsmen's groups. Outrage at plans to allow exploratory drilling near Montana's Rocky Mountain Front (oft-dubbed "America's Serengeti," a trophy-hunter's paradise) convinced the White House to back off before the last election. The latest outcry occurred over language House Resources Committee chairman Richard Pombo (R-Calif.) inserted into a GOP-backed budget bill. The insertion, since withdrawn, would have allowed the sell-off of vast holdings of public lands to mining companies and developers.

Liberals hardly have a better record at championing sportsmen's causes. Local chapters of the Sierra Club, for instance, have campaigned against everything from dove hunting in Minnesota to the culling of black bears in New Jersey -- even though state wildlife biologists insist the hunts pose no ecological risks. Some environmental leaders, though, are beginning to find philosophic and political common ground with sportsmen's groups, pursuing partnerships on a variety of fronts, including private land access. So are some Democrats in Congress.

For the last two years, Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kansas) have introduced an "Open Fields" bill. The measure would provide $20 million a year for five years in federal money for states to establish or expand access programs for "hunting, fishing, bird-watching, and related outdoor activities." That any elected official would fail to support such an inexpensive, uncontroversial, and potentially popular bill might be hard to imagine. Yet in both GOP-dominated houses of Congress the measure has garnered nearly twice as many Democratic co-sponsors as Republican, and consequently not gone very far.

As long as the conservative ethos reigns in Washington and in state capitals, then America's hunting, fishing, and outdoors culture will almost certainly continue to decline. The best hope for protecting this heritage probably rests with elected officials of a progressive bent, Republicans as well as Democrats -- officials who are ideologically comfortable using government to assert a right bequeathed by America's political forefathers: that wildlife belongs not to private interests but to the public.

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Christina Larson is managing editor of The Washington Monthly.

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marta
Posted by: cuja1 on Jan 9, 2006 2:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can one call Hunting a Sport, when you track down an animal with a weapon, and they have none,---it's the same as Murder. Concerning the over population of animals, we are on what was their land, so we are the ones over-populated.

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» RE: marta Posted by: John Rice
» Unthinking human elitism Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Unthinking human elitism Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Unthinking human elitism Posted by: mejsmith
» RE: Unthinking human elitism Posted by: Longhorn
» RE: Unthinking human elitism Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Unthinking human elitism Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Unthinking human elitism Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Unthinking human elitism Posted by: eringhorm
» RE: Unthinking human elitism Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Unthinking human elitism Posted by: kelly.nickell
» Likewise... Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Likewise... Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Unthinking human elitism Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: marta Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: marta Posted by: crusty
» RE: marta Posted by: Jimbo
» RE: marta Posted by: Lizka
» As I was saying... Posted by: Lizka
Do Not Call it "Sport"
Posted by: DCH on Jan 9, 2006 3:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Twenty five or thirty years ago I stood in a marsh and asked myself why a 200lb. man was killing ducks that I gave away rather than eat. I was a decendant of Indians and New England hunters. Even back then as a result of Colonial Law in Massachusettes, access to the marsh was getting difficult without a boat. Democrats are always behind the political curve when it comes to supporting populist causes and this cause is tailor made for "progressive" support. The hunters among us are real and they vote a lot.

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Chuck
Posted by: hilltech on Jan 9, 2006 5:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am an Iowa Farmer, and do hunt myself. I do allow hunting on my property by others, and greatly respect the tradition of hunting. It certainly beats watching professional athletes do something with a ball on the TV.
A problem exists for landowners due to Iowa's laws, in that I am held liable for accidents on my property, whether I have any culpability or not. In fact, trespassers can sue me for accidents resulting from their own negligence. As an example, consider a snowmobiler losing control of his machine at 75 MPH and being killed. So the NO TRESPASSING signs are there to try to protect me from this kind of injustice.
This time of year on many evenings at dusk, you can see more than 100 deer in one my fields, about 200 acres, near my home. They live here, and eat my crops during the growing season, about 2000 pounds per deer per year. This represents about $5000/ year that I contribute to feeding them. That's the biggest reason we hunt them--self defense. I feed them, but the public owns them, and too few people hunt to control their numbers.
Hunting is good recreation, and fosters respect for nature. There are reasons why it should be encouraged, and some problems that should be dealt with.

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» RE: Chuck Posted by: sausage
» RE: Chuck Posted by: christina
Preserve Hunting? Why not bring back torture, too
Posted by: robchapman on Jan 9, 2006 5:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Preserve hunting, are you crazy?
I have woken up every morning for the past six weeks to the sounds of men gunning in the woods, terrorizing defenseless animals.
On Cayuga Lake, less than sixty feet from where I am sitting now, there are decoys and blinds designed to lure ducks into range so that grown men armed with firearms can shoot them from hiding.
This is sport? To hide from a defenseless animal that you have deceitfully lured into a place where you can use a gun to shoot it?
The animal's only resource is to flee in mortal terror.
What if it is wounded? What if its mate or sibling is killed?
Waterfowl mate for life, is it anything but cruel to kill a duck's spouse?
Oh but I forget, this is America where buthchering people by gunfire is a rite of passage. Why should I be worried about mere ducks.
Progressives should not defend hunting, someone in this country has to have a conscience.

Robert Chapman
Lansing, New York

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Deer can be pests
Posted by: robchapman on Jan 9, 2006 6:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Iowa farmer;
yes deer can be pests and there is no good reason for allowing them to be so.
In NYS and NJ to take two states as an example land owners are allowed to kill nuisance deer on their property at any time of year. There are certain regulations they must follow to assure safety and to assure that they are not poaching, but all in all the destruction of nuisance deer proceeds.
Still the destrcution of nuisance deer to protect property and "sport" hunting are not comparable.
I vehemently disagree with you in regard to the" traditions" of hunting. How can it be honorable to terrorize another sentient creature in a contest as unfair as hunting?
Although we disagree on this matter, I still have a great interest in and respect for your views and hope that you will able to respond. We may be unable to convert each other, but hopefully we will be able to communicate with each other.
My email adress is pach12@twcny.rr.com

Robert Chapman
Lansing, New York

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» RE: Deer can be pests Posted by: YogiBear
Real Lefties Hunt
Posted by: Longhorn on Jan 9, 2006 6:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a committed Progressive and I hunt deer. Why?

Partially for the reasons that this article describes: my family has been hunting for all of the 250 years that we've been in this country, and I was introduced to it as a boy.

But I also hunt because I like to eat meat that is lower in fat and cholesterol than beef or turkey, and I refuse to support an industry that treats animals like a car parts. Venison is healthy food that I am absolutely sure has been raised and slaughtered more sustainably, humanely, and cleanly than ANY commercially produced beef or poultry. Are you troubled by the vision of a deer in the back of a pickup truck? Try visiting the plant where your hamburger, chicken patty, or smoked trout was raised.

I also hunt because it's almost the only way (other than car accidents) that deer herds are managed: the predators were all slaughtered a century ago and the deer have big fat corn fields or big fat suburban McMansion gardens on which to dine. Google "Wisconsin" and "chronic wasting disease" to see what happens when deer herds grow unnaturally large. If you get upset at the idea of Bambi turned into sausage, try reintroducing coyotes into their natural habitat and see how you feel about your cat, dog, or toddler being dragged off into the woods by hungry carnivores.

We've screwed up the ecosystem, probably beyong repair: hunting is a humane way to keep it somewhat in balance. The fact that most hunters vote Republican is yet another example of the way that people will vote directly against their own interests if they continue to focus on misguided goals (in the case of too many hunters, protecting the Second Amendment while public lands and the rest of the Constitution disappear).

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» RE: eal Lefties Hunt Posted by: christina
» RE: eal Lefties Hunt Posted by: Longhorn
» letters to the editor Posted by: Lizard
» RE: eal Lefties Hunt Posted by: Lizka
To Be Clear
Posted by: Longhorn on Jan 9, 2006 6:30 AM   
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I actually do support reintroducing predators into their former habitats, even -- or especially -- if it means that suburban developments are depopulated and returned to sustainable ecosystems.

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» RE: To Be Clear Posted by: decembrist
» RE: To Be Clear Posted by: Longhorn
» RE: To Be Clear Posted by: decembrist
Hunting is an experience
Posted by: lamar on Jan 9, 2006 6:53 AM   
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I wish more people would hunt at least once in their lives. It is quite an experience. When you kill an animal yourself you can understand what it means to eat meat. When beef or chicken magically shows up in the grocery store, there is little connection with nature or our place in the world.

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» RE: Hunting is an experience Posted by: owleyes
Why the decrease in Hunters?
Posted by: douglashoyt on Jan 9, 2006 7:12 AM   
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I would bet that the older a population gets the less members of that older population hunt.

They just get tired.

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The things you lose
Posted by: gonzoskismet on Jan 9, 2006 7:12 AM   
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I grew up as a peacenik teenager in the Sixties, vehemently opposed to killing animals in any way. Yet I scarfed burgers, fish sandwiches and meatloaf with the rest of my fellow Americans.
I came from a family of hunters yet I never fit in to that family. Oh, I would go with my father if he asked. Usually I sit on a deer stand once on the opening day of the season with a hang over and total apathy for a few hours. That was my annual committment to family and hunting.
Several years later, married with kids, living in a depressed part of America where ever penny counted, I learned to hunt with my father and found out that, although I did not enjoy the act of killing, I did enjoy the challenge of hunting an animal as wily and intelligent as deer are. You don't just go out in the woods and gun them down. Deer hunting, done properly, takes an enormous amount of time and patience. You have to learn to read the signs, know the territory, and plan a hunt. Later, I got into blackpowder because it provided a more even playing field between the deer and me. I got one shot, he got one chance to get away.
I got into hunting to feed my family. What I got out of it wasn't the joy of killing a defenseless animal, which deer are not. A buck in heat can kill a full grown man. What I really got out of it, though, was more precious than anything else. I got the know my father and enjoy being with him for a few short years. We didn't get along that well in the Sixties what with my rebellion and Anti-war stance. I treasure those years I spent hunting with him because he's gone now.
In the end, we had a hard time finding places to hunt. The rich hunters were leasing up all the land and you had to be in with the 'good ol'boys' to get in on the deal. My dad and I never were. So it all came to an end. He died and I haven't hunted since. But I raised a family on venison and I've got a lot of fond memories. Too bad it all came to this in the Land of the Free.

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» RE: The things you lose Posted by: Lizard
» RE: The things you lose Posted by: christina
You won't find Ted Nugent or the NRA when it comes to issues like these
Posted by: maxpayne on Jan 9, 2006 7:45 AM   
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Ever notice that those folks will shy away from issues such as the ones discussed in the article when you try to talk to them about it? Folks, it's no different than the way these same "pro-lifers" talk about "life" before birth but cheer pro-death once born. The gun lobbyists will only toot the horn when it comes to simply getting their "bottom-line" but when it comes to fighting for a decent environment and land rights for hunting, fighting against land privatization isn't their priority.

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Hunting is natural
Posted by: Northman on Jan 9, 2006 7:58 AM   
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I live in the far north where hunting is still more livelihood than sport. The Inuit and a fair number of us Qallunaaq hunt caribou and seal for food (and clothing). It makes better sense than flying up processed crap from thousands of miles away.

I've never had much use for trophy hunting, because it just seems wasteful, but I also have little patience with the whole, "hunting is bad, don't hurt the poor little animals" crowd as well. Few people these days think about or have any concept of where their food comes from, meat or otherwise. As a result, they tend to be either hypocritical or just ignorant when it comes to the effects of their choices.

As mentioned above, hunting gets you right back into the natural world, at least what's left of it. For that reason alone, hunting is something to be experienced and understood rather than condemned.

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» RE: Hunting is natural Posted by: YogiBear
Hunting and Gathering are human traits.
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Jan 9, 2006 8:03 AM   
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We've been hunter gathers for thousands of years. In today's world you need to be just to survive. The cost of food is going up faster than wages. Hunting as a matter of survibval isn't a bad thing if you use all the animal taken. Just a wall mount is disrespectful to the animal taken. When folks hunted private land in the old days the hunters shared with the land owner there was 'relationship'. Today there's not much. Some folks,if they gey permission, blast anything that moves. These peopel are'nt hunters. They have no respect for the land,they prey,or the landowners. Done correctly a 'hunt' is a contract with the hunter and the prey.
The prey willingly gives up it's life,in return for a humane kill,the hunter and their family gets too eat. Not everyone who hunts is successful. That's how it should be.
The real trouble comes from the game. PCB's have infected most of the water fowl. Mad Cow Disease's cousin is infecting the deer heards. The fish are deformed by mecury. What's going on with the animals is also happening to us. Hunting could survive,but are the game animals worth taking? People should always have the right to hunt and fish and gather foods to survive. Trophy Hunting is far from 'sport'. Sport Ranches have their animals captive. That's definately not sport. The animals know when the hunter's are in the woods.
We make alot of noise and our scent carries on the wind. Plus some drunken stumble bum that can't hit a bucket two feet away, will get sick of freezing in a tree stand,throwing up on his gun, and leave hunting to the People that respect their Prey and the Landowners and the sacrifice their quary makes.

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Some hunting is necessary.
Posted by: monkeywrench on Jan 9, 2006 8:23 AM   
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I can't speak about other species, but there is one in the California foothills that hunters definately need access to hunt: deer. We've wiped out the deer's natural preditor, wolves, and so the deer population has skyrocketed. This has resulted in destruction to property, automobile accidents and deaths on backroads, and for many of the deer, an agonizing slow death from starvation and freezing in the harsh Sierra winter.

Properly-regulated deer hunting culls the herd to maintainable levels, in the long run benefitting both the hunter and the hunted. I know that it may be hard for some environmentalists (I consider myself one; I don't hunt but my dad did, for the reasons mentioned above, and for meat, not for trophy) to understand this, but by destroying nature's ability to limit the deer population, we now have to take over nature's stewardship. I'm sure that this applies to other species as well.

What is important is to teach people the environmantal reasons for hunting, to move away from killing only for trophy, and to teach hunters proper marksmanship – how to kill with as little suffering to the animal as possible, and only when necessary. This is what my dad taught me.

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» RE: Some hunting is necessary. Posted by: christina
Death in Hunting
Posted by: biff777 on Jan 9, 2006 8:28 AM   
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In the Northwest hunting in many places is still nothing but a male-bonding session, like 'bare-back mountain'. Waking up with your friends, getting extremely drunk, going out in the woods, & shooting unarmed animals.
In the Northwest you can tresspass, shoot an half an hour after hunting hours, get yelled at by the people there to stop, shoot blindly through the trees, shoot the land leaser through the heart, killing them, and not get arrested until a week later, with maybe no alcohol-drug testing the whole time.
In memory of Casey Lawson.

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» RE: Death in Hunting Posted by: SDres11
» RE: Death in Hunting Posted by: YogiBear
CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE
Posted by: symcokid on Jan 9, 2006 8:35 AM   
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We better enjoy hunting as we know it while we can because once "Big Brother" determines that they are'nt realizing all of the revenues possible, BEWARE. They will invoke more new rules and regulations to govern just as they do in every other facet of our existence. Better yet, let the insurance companies set the guidelines, car/deer accident claims will be minimized and then they will be able to lower their rates. Either way we hunters come out ahead of the game, the DNR appeases all parties involved and the insurance companies will have more monies for Palatial Headquarter compounds.

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Well said but you should have written this article a long time ago when
Posted by: SDres11 on Jan 9, 2006 8:44 AM   
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the same thing happened here in South Dakota where I've been living for 20 years. For praire farmers, it's always a lose lose situation every time they lose their land but in a fit of anger we have to find someone or something to target and these days it's the praire dogs. Never mind that we're losing both our property rights or for that matter the land needed to enjoy hunting as a result of blindly electing rightwing shitbrains election after election. And no, I did not vote for Thune in 2004.

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Lots of issues
Posted by: evermind on Jan 9, 2006 8:55 AM   
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This is a great article that hits a lot of issues and makes me think a lot. A few thoughts, after having deleted my long argument against hunting as a sport.

My friend, similarly to an earlier post, notes that she doesn't allow people to hunt on her land (except a few known-responsible individuals) for liability reasons; in New York, as in many states, the landowner is liable for anything that happens (including to trespassers, regardless of posted "no trespassing" signs).

That said, it seems that this, and many other issues I've discussed with people of all political stripes, comes down to, "if everyone was reasonable and responsible like they used to be, this wouldn't be an issue." The differences arise in how to deal with it, splitting on emotionally-driven lines of other issues like gun control, hunting vs. animal rights, and private land rights.

I think the problems are really human overpopulation and an old (new?), ignorant way of thinking about nature. People in this culture believe they own land and animals. It is an arrogant viewpoint that they can do what they will with their environment (of which people are a part) and engineer away any problems. We are a species that, unlike most, pass traits not just by genetics but by technology, and not just by generation but laterally within generations. We have responsibilities to uphold with these traits if we want our environment, of which we are a part, to be close to what it used to be only fifty years ago. There has to be some accountability beyond "I paid for it with my money so I have the right to do what I want" in land use management, animal management, environmental regulations, pollution, garbage production, grocery bags....

There has to be a fundamental shift in the culture for the culture to survive.

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rural areas not the only herds in need of thinning
Posted by: owleyes on Jan 9, 2006 9:04 AM   
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Of course we understand that the populations of various species have exceeded their natural limits, and now something must be done. The solution to this problem naturally would be to slaughter a certain percentage of offending populations every year. This logic also holds with our urban poor. It's nothing personal. Poor people take up resources that could be used to enhance the well-being of middle class kids who were born for a purpose. My dad used to hunt deer. Even if he didn't get a deer, he would always shoot a hawk or a coyote or something. If it crossed his path while he was packing, he would usually kill it. He had an itchy trigger finger, you see. He liked to make full use of his God-given privilege to dominate nature. He wasn't really much of a man, he was more of a salesman actually, but killing creatures, mutilating their corpses and so forth, helped him feel like a man, which is what he wanted to be. Think how therapeutic it could be for emasculated white boys like my dad to go to one of these long-neglected housing projects (or even shanty towns, I hear we're getting some of those, now) and become involved with quality of life efforts there. Of course, everything would be highly regulated, each loss of life treated with dignity and faithfully recorded. Each tag would be issued for a certain number of kills, and anything beyond that would be subject to heavy penalties. It would all be very humane. Their skins would be used to make lampshades, their bling melted down to make bullets. It sounds distasteful, and if conservatives were put in charge of it, it probably would be. That's why progressives should put themselves in charge of these operations, to make sure the program stays within its prescribed boundaries and is administered with maximal professionalism.

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» Hello, Mr. Swift. Posted by: ABetterFuture
I like elk, not steak...
Posted by: kelly.nickell on Jan 9, 2006 9:20 AM   
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I spent my time hunting in Oregon with one thing in mind: one shot, one long yearling cow. Had no need for a trophy or the hunt, just needed the meat for the freezer for another year.

I am a Democrat and will always be one. This article speaks volumes about what is a very good solution to pleasing the vast well of interests that this problem encompasses. I have many other friends of the same mind set that do not hunt at all, but share another common mind set: We are all here together; pissing off the people with guns is always a bad idea.

While a few hunters may pay little attention to how their actions affect the image of hunting, a great many more do. The discipline and respect I see from most of the hunters I have been around in a day moves far beyond what some PETA members show in a year.

I see the people that complain so verbally about this issue in the same light as I see pro-life, anti-abortion advocates: They want to throw a law and a line at something that has far deeper ramifications and complexities than can be solved in a single swipe. This requires individual effort from everyone one of us to be beneficial to those that are to be protected.

If we want to truly shoulder the burden of freedom; it is up to each one of us to demand more from those around us. The wanton destruction of all living things and our planet dictate that we actively shun those that behave recklessly. An example of behaving recklessly is allowing four to five hundred thousand deer to starve to death every year from over population of the herds. Is it humane to allow an animal to propagate unchecked to the point of extinction via starvation and death on our highways? We all live here together. I am the smarter one in the food chain right now. My reckless behavior might be pretending that hunting down a defenseless animal is inhumane; it takes a little more thought than that.

We should not accept the illicit behavior, period. I tend to ignore the voices of those that do not respect basic human or animal tendencies, or offer themselves up as a better example of human, or even take the human out of the picture.

I am thankful for the beauty of the animal that will provide an entire winters’ worth of food for my family, just like I would for an ear of corn. Speak for it all to us or leave us alone.

That’s my soapbox; respect mine, and I’ll respect yours.

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» RE: I like elk, not steak... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I like elk, not steak... Posted by: owleyes
» RE: I like elk, not steak... Posted by: kelly.nickell
» RE: I like elk, not steak... Posted by: kelly.nickell
» RE: I like elk, not steak... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I like elk, not steak... Posted by: kelly.nickell
» RE: I like elk, not steak... Posted by: YogiBear
Deer Hunting in Rural NY
Posted by: saramarie on Jan 9, 2006 9:42 AM   
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Around where I live, deer season is huge. There's still a lot of land where people can hunt, I guess. There are a lot of woods. It's interesting to see someone mention how hunting affects rural economies... in my small, rural city, all of the businesses serving breakfast boomed, I know that. I work at a Dunkin, and we probably sold more donuts to hunters and their families around opening day than we sold on any major holiday. I'd say twice as many as Christmas. The local diners were hopping, too.

Oh, by the way, I don't see why people get their panties in a twist over hunting. It's not just a sport, it's for food, too. I have met many families who are very poor and use the deer they bag to provide themselves with venison throughout the winter, which is important considering how much less money is kicking around in this season (especially this year!). Plus, instead of eating meat that was slaughtered in a factory and probably suffered there while still living, deer roam free until they get shot by a hunter or end up on someone's windshield. There's more respect for the animal that becomes your meal in hunting, too. What's so wrong with it, then?

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» RE: Deer Hunting in Rural NY Posted by: YogiBear
No Recognition of Native Americans
Posted by: ccnygal13 on Jan 9, 2006 9:52 AM   
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As a Cherokee, I urge the public to recognize that the land, the animals, have been apart of our community only to be taken from us by those who live today. These animals were never yours to "hunt". The hunters of today lack any spiritual understanding and relationship to the animals they kill, place on walls, make money off of, and eat. I think it is good that they can no longer hunt. The progressives should not take up their issue but the real issue of how our animals--and land--are being used. However, what has been done, has been done. There is still one animal left that is truly ours, the buffalo. There are still many genetically pure buffaloes (meaning their DNA is not mixed with cattle) that exist in Yellowstone National Park. They have been refused to the indigenous people for us to utilize once again as a major facet of our culture, history, and teaching. Perhaps there is a thread of something that moves you to hunt, a primordial pull, a reconnection back to Earth. However, you must recognize that you do not own anything as anything can be taken from you.

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I hate the idea of hunting, but---
Posted by: bambic on Jan 9, 2006 11:01 AM   
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I grew up in L.A. with the nickname of Bambi and the whole concept of hunting was totally unacceptable to me, until I moved to Arkansas.
The hunters I have met are living, like myself, way below the poverty level, and what they kill they eat. The meat is pure, no growth hormones, no anti-biotics or other chemicals have been fed to these animals.
I could never kill a deer myself, but when a neighbor brings me a venison roast, I am in no position to turn it down, though because of my name, I do feel somewhat like a cannibal...

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IF YOU WANT TO HUNT ANOTHER CREATURE...
Posted by: Newtopia on Jan 9, 2006 11:02 AM   
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...YOU SHOULD FIRST BE HUNTED YOURSELF, TO SEE WHAT IT FEELS LIKE.

SICK BASTARDS!

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The signs say NO HUNTING!
Posted by: Againstthewindwalking on Jan 9, 2006 11:07 AM   
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I spent a week painting and hanging them last year! Here's why! I have an old Ford truck. Some might think it doesn't looks like much but but it's mine, and it ran like a top untill some trigger-happy yokel put three 30-06 rounds into the engine block! He was real easy to see! He was wearing a bright orange vest! I chased him through the woods untill I got ahead of him, stepped out in front of him and let him stare down the barrel of my .44 magnum for a minute before I asked him the relavent question. "Why?"

"Hell it's just an old truck!" the 'sportsman' declared! "I didn't see no harm in it!"

I took him back to my old truck and showed him the five coats of hand-rubbed laquer, completely redone interior, and freshly rebuilt flathead Ford V8 with three bullet hole through the block. I showed him the 1952 Ford F1 front fender that I spent three days restoring. It was destroyed in less than 2 seconds! Still this clown stood and argued to the fact that because he was a hunter that he should have the right to blast away at anything he damned well pleased because he had a hunting lisence. I finally had to sue to get my truck repaired and some people seem top think I overstepped my rights for, "Raising so much hell about an old Ford truck". Most of the people who have this opinion are hunters.

The sign says NO HUNTING! Come on my property with a gun, leave on a stretcher! Hunters don't seem to have an once of respect for anything or anyone if there's a deer to be shot! Don't even get me started about my uncle who lost six dairy cows, or the poor motorist that hit two of them at thirty miles an hour in a Honda civic! Why? A trespassing hunter left the gate open! THAT'S WHY!!!

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» RE: The signs say NO HUNTING! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The signs say NO HUNTING! Posted by: Againstthewindwalking
» RE: The signs say NO HUNTING! Posted by: YogiBear
It's the Developers! Not the Hunters!
Posted by: PP on Jan 9, 2006 11:09 AM   
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We have to be very careful here when criticizing hunters. I don't like killing either, but many of us eat fish, chicken and cows, which are farmed and killed so we all can eat. The fact is that hunters through their lobbying efforts have helped preserve many wild and natural areas that would have gone to "development". Developers and corporate industries are the real enemy - not the hunters. Hunters are much more educated today, and we now have laws, too. A hundred years ago Americans pretty much shot anything that moved, and there were no laws to protect wild creatures. The real issue here is preserving habitat from development, and in that, the hunters are on our side. Hunters don't destroy wetlands, and hunters don't indiscrimately cut down forests for profit. And they don't necessarily shoot wolves, coyotes and bears that wander onto their private property. And hunters are restricted to hunting fowl and game that are deemed healthy populations. If there are endangered birds and wildlife, it is due to development. It is the arctic birds who are losing food sources due to global warming, shorebirds that have lost off-shore nesting and migrating songbirds who have lost their forested protection. The solution is to join together to restrict private development, making it clear to the citizens of this nation that we can no longer afford to do whatever we want with land, even if we own it. Take away the incentives for development! Of course, there are hunters who shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun, but there are people who shouldn't be allowed behind a car either. Once the habitat is gone, it's nearly impossible to regain it.

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» OK THEN... Posted by: Newtopia
While we're at it, let's save date rape too!
Posted by: rentstrike on Jan 9, 2006 11:28 AM   
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The exploitation of animals is the model upon which all forms of oppression among humans have been based. Speciesism and sexism are so closely linked -- in history, ideology, and practice -- that some people consider them two sides of the same coin. It's truly astonishing that AlterNet would publish something suggesting that progressives ought to save hunting. To me, this is like a plea for progressives to save the sport of date rape. Those frat boys have always done it. It's a tradition in their culture. Plus, they get so much out of it. Never mind that, like hunters, they are doing something to somebody else's body without permission. Let them have their fun!

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To hunt or not to hunt
Posted by: akdave on Jan 9, 2006 11:26 AM   
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Greetings all,

It just seems that any article about hunting or meat just really stirs things up on Alternet. Why the fuss? No one is going to force vegans to take up a gun and kill Bambi and hunting is here to stay for the foreseeable future. but I have to tell you, some of these posts are coming from people who know nothing about hunting.

Fair chase hunting is all about giving the prey a chance - and the post about deer being dumb and just reacting through instinct has never hunted deer. They are quite intelligent and more than capable of out-witting most weekend hunters. Otherwise there would be a lot fewer deer in this country, believe me.

I finished my fourth year of hunting in October and brought home my first deer since moving to Kodiak. I grew up hunting deer with my Father and brothers and I am happy to pass that heritage on to one of my daughters who loves to fish and hunt with me. Believe me, a license and a gun are no guarantee of meat in the freezer.

As for the spirituality, what can I say. I hike every weekend in the same country I hunt in the fall, but the two experiences are not the same. Inside we are predators, whether going after a deer, that sale at Sears or that big deal at work. The spirituality of hunting is an intangible that can only be experienced, not described. But once the shot is fired and the animal is down, it is nothing but hard, dirty work; the product, however, is the best meat one can eat.

Live and let live in the land of the free...

David

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» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: Lizard
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: brunowe
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: Lizard
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: brunowe
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: brunowe
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: triana1326
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: kelly.nickell
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: akdave
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: Lizard
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: akdave
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: Lizard
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: akdave
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: ravengrrrl
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: ravengrrrl
» RE: To hunt or not to hunt Posted by: EncinoM
Oh yeah, I'll preserve THAT
Posted by: praedor on Jan 9, 2006 1:17 PM   
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Hell, it's been my goal to acquire as large a tract of land as possible and simply keep it safe for local wildlife, totally unmolested. My goal is a large plot of land with signs all around it saying "No Tresspassing - NO HUNTING". The coyotes, the deer, the wild turkey, the quail, the opossums, etc, would all be protected.

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» RE: Oh yeah, I'll preserve THAT Posted by: ravengrrrl
If you want to hunt
Posted by: Maryanne on Jan 9, 2006 4:11 PM   
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hunt where you are welcome. We own 30 acres of woods, field and creek in a rural area in which homes are strung along the road, and across from a Wildlife Rehab center. We have deer, a wonderful flock of wild turkeys, barn owls (which are an endangered species at least in this area), a pileated woodpecker, blue herons, and other avian species. Although we do not live there, neighbors, often with small children, come here for nature walks, and to enjoy the creek with its a small sandy beach. We have repeatedly posted signs to prevent hunting, but they come- in and out of season- tear down the no trespassing signs, and kill deer, taking whatever cuts they want, leaving the rest to rot. Police have found numerous deer carcasses, but have not been successful in catching the hunters.

Hunters trespassing on property where they are not invited are inconsiderate and dangerous. Their activity disrupts the wildlife. And should some unwary neighbor, peacefully enjoying the place, be hurt or killed by a stray bullet, not only would this be a tragedy, but also we might we be held responsible.

This is our retreat, not an abandoned site, and certainly not an appropriate location for hunting. We wish hunters would respect our rights and wishes, not just pursue their "sport" of hunting.

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» RE: If you want to hunt Posted by: ravengrrrl
"wildlife belongs not to private interests but to the public"
Posted by: evesegal on Jan 9, 2006 6:09 PM   
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I assume Christina Larson meant humans when she said "the public." But I'd say wildlife belongs to wildlife. Citizens don't "own" the lives of the wild animals who inhabit our national and state parks. Hunting or fishing for food because there is no other high-quality protein available is defensible, but killing a life for "sport" (i.e., entertainment) is a sickness, and vile. There are times when, to maintain ecological balance in a nature preserve, an overabundant species must be culled. That should be done by authorized wardens, and not for "sport."

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Progressive?
Posted by: WitchyNy on Jan 9, 2006 6:23 PM   
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A few years ago, when I lived in a small cabin in tall woods...I was always amazed at the hunters that
drove past my 'keep out' signs and asked permission to hunt animals on my property "for food".

They would drive up my road in their fancy new trucks full of CD's and TV's and cases of beer and steak sandwhiches...with their very expensive rifles and fancy new hunting clothes and then had the nerve to tell me it was to "feed their families".

Sometimes I had to call the police...when they would not take no for an answer and they were so drunk they were a danger to me and my kids not to mention my horses and goats.....most every place around had new bullet holes in the sides of their homes and barns each year...

I was always happy to learn of a drunken hunter getting lost and freezing to death...or shooting another hunter...which happened at least once every single winter...one year there was a dead girl in an orange vest found shot right by my own property. Never was learned who she was.

Back in the depression era, when my grandfather hunted..it was truly for food. He did not enjoy it or think it made him closer to nature or whatever. It made him sad, but he needed to kill the animals that he loved for food.

No one does that now. It is not cost-effective. And no other reason is good enough...

I have suspected for some time now...that Alternet is not really a progressive site, but more a mainstream middle of the road-Democrat male dominated one.

This article confirms it for me.
Time for me to find a more truly progressive radical-feminist site.
Any suggestions?

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» RE: Progressive? Posted by: ravengrrrl
» RE: Progressive? Posted by: Henk
Had to share this...
Posted by: brunowe on Jan 9, 2006 6:59 PM   
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Just heard two quips from a comic on Comedy Central regarding vegetarinism:

1) I did not climb to the top of the food chain to eat a carrot!
2) He described how a vegetarian became one because of the environment, because of the global-warming effects of cow flatulence. When the vegetarian asked him what HE was doing about the environment, he said "I'm eating the cows!"

I know the issue is more complex than that, but that was funny.

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» His name is Ron White Posted by: errandchild
Ancestry
Posted by: Llama11 on Jan 9, 2006 7:33 PM   
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Somewhere down the line your ancestors ate meat to survive. It's called the food chain, and we just happen to be at the top. How can you justify eating plants if you care so much for life? I respect your decision to not eat animals. Respect mine.

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» RE: Ancestry Posted by: Tricia
» RE: Ancestry Posted by: Llama11
HUSH! You're scaring away the game.
Posted by: Kneel on Jan 10, 2006 1:45 AM   
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Let's leave aside the veggie argument for the moment - especially since it's unlikely to be productive when people are giving the six-year-old-being-goofy response, Well, plants are alive, too!

Anyone having that much trouble understanding the difference needs to get themselves committed to a place where they won't be able to harm anyone.

Let's also leave aside the tradition argument, as there's not much weight to that. Many things are traditions that shouldn't be, and there are many we're glad to have moved past, a great many terrible ones. More to the point, very few hunters I've met are doing it based on some traditional tie to the land. If they were, they wouldn't have to worry about access, now would they?

Also the sustenance argument: The sort of hunters being discussed here, especially the bird hunters, are suburbanites who like dressing up in camouflage, drinking and blasting. The appeal seems more that it's an excuse to get out in nature while remaining manly and solidly heterosexual.

Perhaps we can also leave aside that frightening assertion that it's valuable to experience killing. Many say that there's something different about "a man who's been in a war," who is somehow elevated above other men by the experience, by the understanding of human nature, blah-de-blah. Of course, I've haven't heard anyone say this who's been much closer to actual combat than playing Grand Theft Auto. It's quite an experience? So is calling in a white-phosphorous strike.

And, of course, since it's just a mere twenty million, I guess we can leave aside the jolt at the idea of being money poured into programs the normally bring in revenue. I'm all for open access, English countryside style. However, opening access to the land for hunters closes it for everyone else. (Espeically when declining eyesight combines, as tends to happen, with declining sobriety in the person pulling the trigger at what he thought was his prey).

I want to leave all those aside because there was a more immediate thought going through my mind as I read this article: is it ever going to end?

I'm all for long pieces that are well-written, that actually use the space to say something. But this was like being stuck in a blind with one of those hunters with the declining sobriety.

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Not in my backyard
Posted by: Apollo C. Vermouth on Jan 10, 2006 5:59 AM   
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Here in Maine, we have a little tradition that goes way back: a hunter, upon seeing a dog roaming free in the woods, is entitled (I'm not saying legally entitled) to shoot said dog, because the dog MUST have been chasing deer. I own two dogs, so I decided to post my land for that reason, and also for the reason that many hunters up here think it's a good idea to get sloshed to the gills before wandering around on someone's private property with a loaded gun.

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Focus
Posted by: rayo on Jan 10, 2006 2:35 PM   
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The meat/no-meat argument aside, the issue of hunting is an enormously practical means of getting people together on the issues of ecology and environmentalism. This issue seems to be an area in which progressives in states like Kansas could begin to find common ground with voters who typically favor more conservative candidates. Regardless of one's personal choices about eating meat and/or hunting, it would be more productive to focus on this potential for change.

Also, on a lighter note, it makes me happy to have Kansas make the news for doing something right. Phil Kline, Sam Brownback, and the like certainly do not represent ALL Kansans!

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What next?
Posted by: kittynboi on Jan 11, 2006 7:56 AM   
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Will the left take up to defending the waning practice of burning witches?

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» RE: What next? Posted by: Llama11
hunting = wildlife revenue
Posted by: dmso12 on Jan 12, 2006 10:24 AM   
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I'd like to point out that a fair portion of funding for wildlife programs (and fisheries programs, including monitoring and biologst salaries) come from sales of usage permits, e.g. hunting licenses. There is no benevolent FEDERAL funding agency that gives money to starving biologsts out of the love of life; rather, the fact that people use a resource gives rise to an agency that handles use of said resource, namely hunters, fishermen, etc. Sure, we get grants, but bread and butter comes from the stakeholders.

Furthermore, another big chunk of our funding comes from non-profit groups like (for example) Ducks Unlimited (no endorsement implied). Eliminate use of the resource and then those non-profits have no reason to give. Suuport industries that surround hunting, fishing, etc. also chip in to the pot.

In turn, that funding goes to agencies that do more than just monitor deer. Wildlife biology doesn't pay much, so when you get such a job you end up doing other jobs such as bird banding and tracking, water quality assessment, etc. Take away the revenue and those fringe benefits cease as well.

It's fine to not like hunting or fishing, but you have to realize that if those activities cease, it will hurt management of our resources because jobs will be lost when the message 'we don't need to manage those resources' gets to the Hill.

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» RE: hunting = wildlife revenue Posted by: YogiBear
Pregnancy tests cost a lot of animals
Posted by: lamar on Jan 13, 2006 1:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all the "never let another animal die" folks, where do you think pregnancy tests come from?
http://www.slate.com/id/2134212/?nav=tap3

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Private land
Posted by: candara on Jan 14, 2006 1:30 AM   
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Well, you made me feel better about the privatization of land. Thank you!! Actually, I recently bought 40 acres in CO so I could eventually fence the area off and entice as many local animals on it during hunting season as possible. I plan on expanding this effort. Glad to hear it may work!! To ask people to feel sorry for someone who finds joy in blasting another being to pieces is ludicrous. My father was a hunter. I can at least say that he vowed never to take a shot unless he was certain he could make the kill with that one shot (a quick death). He said he seemed to be the only one out there with that policy. It even sickened him to see the multitudes of (usually drunken) idiots out there just blowing away at an animal's extremities, etc. until it finally died a slow, agonizing death. And you expect pity.

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The person who started the tone of comments at the top of the thread...
Posted by: Lizka on Jan 15, 2006 9:15 AM   
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... is missing the point. The above article is about loss of access by the majority of the non-landowning public to RURAL LAND. That is what it is about - access. Which includes for ramblers and dog-walkers and campers and all sorts of other people as well... not just hunters.

This is NOT an animal rights issue. Wooly vegans, find somewhere else to complain. This is a class issue.

If you don't stop clouding the argument, you will find that in a few years everywhere on the whole planet will just belong to corporations (who will maybe allow some access to their trendy friends, whether vegan or hunting; or to whoever "successful" can pay)... and the rest of us will all be eating Soylent Green.

So. There. Get to the real issue!

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No more drunken weekends
Posted by: Jeffersonista on Jan 15, 2006 3:45 PM   
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Hunting, what a joke!!!

Rednecks with sixpacks and radios triangulating thier prey from atvs. A pox on the land, and good riddance to them all.

You can't turn back the clock, it 2006 not 1400, get your food at the market, and when you want to spend a weekend drinking, just say thats what you want to do.

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» RE: No more drunken weekends Posted by: YogiBear
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