A Dialogue with Donahue

It's never easy to be in the middle of a war, but in early 2003, Phil Donahue found himself embroiled in two. Seven months earlier, Donahue had been lured back to television after a six-year hiatus to host an issues-and-answers program for perennial ratings underdog MSNBC. His new bosses were hoping the white-maned veteran of talk TV would give the struggling network the jolt it needed in the battle for cable-news supremacy.

On the other side of the world, however, a real war was gearing up -- in Iraq -- and it was Donahue's unabashed, on-air opposition to that conflagration that spelled the program's ultimate demise. "[He presents a] difficult public face for NBC in a time of war," read a leaked NBC memo, "…at the same time that our competitors are waving the flag."

After the boom was lowered in February 2003, Donahue remained unbowed. "We weren't Elvis," he says, "but we often led MSNBC's nightly ratings. We deserved to be nurtured, not canceled." Today, Donahue, 70, who is married to actress-activist Marlo Thomas, watches the action from the sidelines, but is no less engaged: He continues to attend peace rallies and publicly press for a withdrawal of American troops. I caught up with Donahue by phone at his home in Manhattan.

Bruce Kluger: Two-and-a-half years ago, MSNBC cancelled your show, in large part because it expressed an anti-war message -- a sentiment that is now embraced by a majority of Americans. Do you feel tempted to say "I told you so?"

Phil Donahue: No, those are awful words. What do we possibly gain from that? That wouldn't do anything for the troops. I'd be standing on top of the pain of all these families, glorifying myself. Criticism, I'm used to that. But nothing ever comes from saying "I told you so."

Does the fact that you were right all along frustrate you, or is it weirdly satisfying in a way, knowing you weren't crazy?

I'm still bewildered by how naive I was. When MSNBC first announced my show, there was this notion that Donahue, this 29-year veteran with name recognition, was going to save the network. In fact, headlines said, CAN DONAHUE SAVE MSNBC? Now, I'm not exactly the youngest member of the choir here, and I actually thought I was going back on television with a show that would be able to make a contribution toward the dialogue about the Iraq war, and that this would give it commercial value. I wasn't ashamed to be concerned about ratings. The size of the audience is the coin of the realm, and if you don't draw a crowd, sooner or later you'll be parking cars. I honestly thought that having an anti-war voice in the middle of all the drum-beating would be good strategically for a network that was trying to gain some traction.

A genuine anti-war voice.

Yes. I wasn't cute about it, I didn't finesse it. I was outspokenly against this military effort, so it wasn't like I was ambushing anybody. I thought this anti-war voice would distinguish us, and to put it very crassly, be good for business at NBC. But I never anticipated how truly hostile the management team would be to an anti-war voice, not only within the corridors of NBC, but at all the commercial networks. That's why I call myself naive — for not understanding how badly all of this would be received.

After MSNBC pulled your show, you released a statement that said, "It took almost three years for Fox [News Channel] to overtake CNN. We had six months."

Right. Look, we weren't Elvis. We did not burn down the town at MSNBC. What we did do was often -- not always, but often -- lead the night. The tent pole of the evening. We never beat Fox, but nobody else did, either. And because our numbers were good enough -- relative to the rest of the programs on the network -- we deserved not to be canceled but to be nurtured. To be promoted.