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Spying and Torture: Don't Go There

By Stephen Pizzo, News for Real. Posted December 20, 2005.


If Bush wants to know where domestic spying leads, he should read some of the millions of files the East German Stasi compiled on its own citizens.

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There is something George W. Bush should understand, being that he's a dry drunk; one is too many and a thousand never enough.

That little rule of thumb is doubly true of torture and spying on fellow Americans. Justifying one water-boarding becomes justification for the next, and the next until, before you know it, torture becomes not just another tool in the box, but the tool of choice.

The same goes for spying on one another. Humans are born suspicious of one another. Just try handing a baby to a stranger and see what happens. Distrust is programmed right into our DNA, and it knows no bounds. Employers and employees share a mutual distrust of one another. Parents don't trust their own kids unless they're right under their noses. And we trust those we don't know anything about least of all.

So, when the President of the United States gives the nation's most technologically intrusive spy agency, the NSA, the green light to snoop on U.S. citizens it's not just another legalistic nuance, it's a sea change, a very dangerous one.

Why? Because there really is only about six degrees of separation between all of us. One monitored individual's phone calls, for example, inevitably leads to dozens of other suspects. Which leads to the next inevitable question: Who are they? And then: Are they part of it? (Whatever the it, real, feared or just imagined, may be.)

If Bush wants to know where domestic spying leads a nation all he has to do is have one of his aides read aloud to him some of the millions of files the East German Stasi compiled on its own citizens.

"The Stasi's influence over almost every aspect of life in the German Democratic Republic cannot be overestimated. Until the mid-1980s, a civilian network of informants grew within both Germanys, East and West. By the East German collapse in 1989, it is estimated that the Stasi had 91,000 full-time employees and 300,000 informants. This means approximately one in fifty East Germans collaborated with the Stasi, one of the highest penetrations of any society by an organization....The Stasi monitored politically incorrect behavior among all citizens of East Germany. During the 1989 peaceful revolution, the Stasi offices were overrun by enraged citizens, but not before a huge amount of compromising material was destroyed by Stasi officers. The remaining files are available for review to all people who were reported upon, often revealing that friends, colleagues, husbands, wives, and other family members were regularly filing reports with the Stasi."

An extreme example? Not at all. You can be certain that if we could get unfettered access to the intel files of Israel, Egypt, Libya, Russia, China and other nations with neither the scruples or constitutional limits on domestic spying, we'd find Stasi-like files there too.

Domestic spying attracts folks that suffer from a kind of obsessive compulsive disorder. Once they begin collecting information on fellow citizens, they can't stop themselves. All that's required is that you come to their attention. After that, they must know all they can about you: your finances, your habits, your thoughts, your friends, your family. It must all be observed, examined, categorized, kept and updated.


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Stephen Pizzo is the author of numerous books, including "Inside Job: The Looting of America's Savings and Loans," which was nominated for a Pulitzer.

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When you are god's representive, you are allowed to break any law you chose
Posted by: ShaSpirit on Dec 20, 2005 12:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well thought out article, though I wish it were a little longer. Bush reportedly said the Constitution was just a god damn piece of paper and he wanted this spying to happen now. He has been told by the Attorney General, his personal counsel and John Soo that he has the right to over ride any law he chooses, since he is only protecting the American people. These are the same people who said torture was ok too.

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inherent suspicion?
Posted by: nomoreflags on Dec 20, 2005 1:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with most of the points that the author makes in this piece, except for the paragraph which states:

"Humans are born suspicious of one another. Just try handing a baby to a stranger and see what happens. Distrust is programmed right into our DNA, and it knows no bounds. Employers and employees share a mutual distrust of one another. Parents don't trust their own kids unless they're right under their noses. And we trust those we don't know anything about least of all."

Are human being really born suspicious of one another? Is that the way the world has always been? Are we destined from birth to compete and to try to one-up our fellow human beings? I think not.

I believe that the 'natural' suspicions present in human beings are not natural at all, but are taught to us by those in power through the system that they control. These ideas are taught to us by those who don't want to see powerless people get along, don't want to see us cooperate, don't want to see us talk, and listen, and work together. This is because when people work together in search of the truth, they will eventually find it and come to the conclusion that those in power are undeservedly so, that the state is a violent and unjustified authoritarian institution, and that, immersed in this system of control, we are not free.

People are suspcious of one another, yes, but are not naturally so.

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» RE: inherent suspicion? Posted by: bgroat
» RE: inherent suspicion? Posted by: Pepper
» RE: inherent suspicion? Posted by: bgroat
» RE: inherent suspicion? Posted by: Colin
» RE: inherent suspicion? Posted by: nomoreflags
» RE: inherent suspicion? Posted by: elderban
» montana freeman Posted by: montana freeman
» RE: inherent suspicion? Posted by: nomoreflags
» RE: inherent suspicion? Posted by: montana freeman
A small step
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Dec 20, 2005 5:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is a small step from considering fellow citizens enemies worthy of being spied upon to considering them enemies worthy of torture. If you can't find evidence, make them confess.

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» RE: A small step Posted by: rinthy
The Gaunlet was thrown this weekend and yesterday!
Posted by: Pepper on Dec 20, 2005 6:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is what I saw which amazed me. He put Congress on notice that this is war between them and he intends to win. "After all I am the 'God damn President' and I can do what I want".

Now, if the Congress has no cahones, then we will have torture, renewed permanent patriot act and we will have illegal spying. Its out of the closet and the "Constitution be damned". If we vote those incumbants back in, we are doomed. WE must take the President on and win by electing a whole new Congress who doesn't think the Constitution is outdated.

Henry Hyde is a good example who said in a committee meeting that the Constitution is an outdated document and then proceeded to have the minutes of the meeting purged in the Library of Congress. This was reported by Ron Paul, one of the few remaining American Hero's in Congress. We need to send him more like him.

Then, once we have done that, we impeach the bum. As Reid said "This is the most corrupt congress in the history of the United States". It is why they can be manipulated by this President. Its a slippery slope we are currently scrambling to stay away from. ITS NOW UP TO US.

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CONGRESSIONAL MANIPULATION?
Posted by: picket on Dec 20, 2005 7:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
POLITICAL TERROR? Orwell's ANIMAL FARM: Lesson from the pig Squealer. "Bravery is not enough,....Loyalty and obedience are more important....One false step, and our enemies would be upon us . Surely ...you do not want Jones back?

THE LIE? They fell for it too. "If holding debates on Sunday mornings was liable to bring him back[Jones], then the debates must stop."

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There is nothing new under the sun
Posted by: Crazy H on Dec 20, 2005 8:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the fifties, the threat of communism was great enough to justify throwing out Due Process.

In the sixties, it was war protesters; the seventies, drugs. In the ninties we had the horrible threat of internet pornography, and when that didn't scare people enough it morphed into kiddy porn that was touted as the reason we needed to shred the bill of rights.

And today, we have terrorism. Surprise! It warrants unwarranted search & seizure, just like all the other threats.

When such disparate threats all have the same 'solution' I begin to wonder - is it that they're actually trying to solve the problem? Or is it that they are especially interested in creating a police state, no matter what the excuse?

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Bush & Rove have Nazi ties
Posted by: harpy on Dec 20, 2005 8:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WE shouldn't be surprised at King George's actions. His grandfathers, George Herbert Walker, and Prescott Bush, were major backers of Hitler and the Nazi party through Brown Brothers Harriman and Union Banking. U. S. documentation shows that Prescott Bush knowingly served as money launderer for the Nazis. Karl Rove's grandfather was Karl Heinz Roverer, Gauleiter of Oldenburg. He was Reich-Statthalter - Nazi State Party chairman for his region. He was also partner and senior engineer in the engineering firm that built the Birkenau death camp. They both have ties to the Rev. Sun Myung Moon, and his own fascist networks in Japan and Korea. Neil Bush has travelled abroad with Moon and his group. Arnold Schwarzeneggar is also in this mess and conspiracy. What else can we expect from these Nazis, except for a fascist, totalitarian regime where all rights belong the few while the people live in fear.

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heheh
Posted by: owlsliveintrees on Dec 20, 2005 8:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yeah guys, the democratically elected president giving personal authorization for wiretaps on terror suspects is just like the Stasi files. Go ask some East Germans what they think. Dumbasses.

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» RE: heheh Posted by: rnagisetty
» RE: heheh Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: heheh Posted by: monkeywrench
» RE: heheh Posted by: StoneRiley
» RE: heheh Posted by: deegee
mm
Posted by: bettsoff on Dec 20, 2005 9:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kinda reminds me of that scene in Swing Kids where Thomas rats out his parents.

You'd think grown-ups would have it down better than the kids they preach to, but kindergarten rules still need repeated:

Don't tattletale.

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"A tower of babble and a spine of jelly"
Posted by: monkeywrench on Dec 20, 2005 10:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How ironic it is that our president and his minions...er...administration put on the "tough guy" image we've been bombarded with, from that trick-or-treat" stunt on an aircraft carrier, to the way Bush swaggers with hs arms out, to the nonsensical ramblings of Defense secretary Rummy, and on and on. Because the type of paranoia that leads to spying on non-threats like Quakers and ordinary americans comes from a deep, overwhelming sense of powerlessness, a fragility and cowardice carried in the heart of every bully who ever lived.

Don't kid yourselves folks; at the core of Mr. Bush's being is FEAR; palpable, quaking fear, because his subconsious knows who he REALLY is – and isn't. The Little Boy of Privelage, mommy's favorite and the recipient of daddy's favors and influence-peddling all of his life, is still alive.

Behind the power and benefits he has life-long derived from everyone around him – and continues to live off of today in his role as Puppet President – he himself is nothing, and he knows it. The only problem is that there is also nothing more dangerous than a cornered animal – especially one with the power of the mightiest government on Earth behind him. We need to bring the power of the law to bear and remove this lunatic before the damage is irrepairable. It is time to impeach this president.

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the damage has been done for the last five years
Posted by: Asses of Evil on Dec 20, 2005 10:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
as the msm have eaten all the lies that bush & kkko. have served up, desperately defending their bold leader and their access to all the top-tier cocktail parties in town. The US will be suffering from their accession to king george the incompetent for years, both in terms of policy leftovers (even if no more fascism is adopted) and in terms of our credibility throughout the world.

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CAN YOU SAY IRONY?
Posted by: LouisFallert on Dec 20, 2005 12:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GEORGE BUSH SAID:

"And it’s not going to be easy. It’s still going to be hard, because we’re getting rid of decades of bitterness.

"You find these secret, you know, prisons, where people have been tortured ; you know, that’s unacceptable.

"And yet there are some who still want to have retribution against people who harmed them."

.........

"She said, He doesn’t deserve a trial. You know, he deserves immediate death for what he did to my people.

"And it just struck me about how strongly she felt about the need to not have a rule of law, that there needed to be quick retribution, that he didn’t deserve it.

"And I said to her, Don’t you see that the trial itself stands in such contrast to the tyrant that that in itself is a victory for freedom and a defeat for tyranny, just the trial alone, and it’s important that there be rule of law?"

from:

Text Of Bush News Conference
December 19, 2005 1:35 pm US/Eastern
linked text = kyw.com/topstories/topstories

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Good Article--but
Posted by: Basenjis on Dec 20, 2005 1:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to say "That meant someone had to report on the Quaker group's meeting. Who? Someone the group considered 'one of them.' Betrayal, Stasi style" is a little misleading. I have attended many Quaker meetings down through the years. I am not a Quaker myself. These meetings were always open and frank and discussions were political by nature. Anyone could attend and anyone could have informed on them, not necessarily "one of them."

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» RE: Good Article--but Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Good Article--but Posted by: cynicl
This is the problem with the American left & liberals
Posted by: vescalant on Dec 29, 2005 3:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comparing the GDR's Stasi with the Bush administration's trampling of civil liberties and rights only shows why American leftists and liberals have been so much out of sync with the rest of the American population. To Americans influenced by Cold war propaganda, the GDR and the Soviet bloc were enemies in a war because of its socialism and not because of its authoritarian policies (otherwise how could you honestly despise the Stasi in the GDR and not racism in the US at the same time). The Stasi existed to support that socialist-enemy system, and thus it was evil. The Patriot act and government spying on American citizens on the other hand have been installed by an inherently democratic and free (read capitalist) system for its protection of new evils, like terrorism, and thus are necessary and even fair according to the right wing propaganda. Perhaps if leftist & liberals started to analyze the above forms of right wing propaganda they could figure out a way to counter it, just as the right did in the GDR to neutralize government propaganda and bring down socialism with it. The Stasi served to maintain socialism in the GDR in just the same way that the Patriot Act serves to maintain imperialism. The question is then whether the current rate of imperialist development can sustain a good enough standard for the American population to justify the sacrifice of civil liberties at its current level in the US.

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John McCarthy
Posted by: johnmccarthy on Feb 21, 2006 12:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Patterns of abuse continue in the so calle Intelligence Community. Aggressive war, preemptive war, fabrication of "evidence" to justify attacking a sovereign nation and now, the real potential for a preemptive nuclear attack on Iran, but only because the spies have said they don't possess the means for nuclear retaliation.

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id120.html

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