COMMENTS: 162
Your Guess Is as Good as Mine
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Shaw, if he were alive today, would envy us the solid information that we have or can get about the nature of the universe, about time and space and matter, about our own bodies and brains, about the resources and vulnerabilities of our planet, about how all sorts of human beings actually talk and feel and live.
This is the information revolution. We have taken it very badly so far. Information seems to be getting in the way all the time. Human beings have had to guess about almost everything for the past million years or so. Our most enthralling and sometimes terrifying guessers are the leading characters in our history books. I will name two of them: Aristotle and Hitler. One good guesser and one bad one.
The masses of humanity, having no solid information to tell them otherwise, have had little choice but to believe this guesser or that one. Russians who didn't think much of the guesses of Ivan the Terrible, for example, were likely to have their hats nailed to their heads.
We must acknowledge, though, that persuasive guessers--even Ivan the Terrible, now a hero in Russia--have given us courage to endure extraordinary ordeals that we had no way of understanding. Crop failures, wars, plagues, eruptions of volcanoes, babies being born dead--the guessers gave us the illusion that bad luck and good luck were understandable and could somehow be dealt with intelligently and effectively.
Without that illusion, we would all have surrendered long ago. But in fact, the guessers knew no more than the common people and sometimes less. The important thing was that they gave us the illusion that we're in control of our destinies.
Persuasive guessing has been at the core of leadership for so long--for all of human experience so far--that it is wholly unsurprising that most of the leaders of this planet, in spite of all the information that is suddenly ours, want the guessing to go on, because now it is their turn to guess and be listened to.
Some of the loudest, most proudly ignorant guessing in the world is going on in Washington today. Our leaders are sick of all the solid information that has been dumped on humanity by research and scholarship and investigative reporting.
They think that the whole country is sick of it, and they want standards, and it isn't the gold standard. They want to put us back on the snake-oil standard.
Loaded pistols are good for people unless they're in prisons or lunatic asylums.
That's correct.
Millions spent on public health are inflationary.
That's correct.
Billions spent on weapons will bring inflation down.
That's correct.
Industrial wastes, and especially those that are radioactive, hardly ever hurt anybody, so everybody should shut up about them.
That's correct.
Industries should be allowed to do whatever they want to do: Bribe, wreck the environment just a little, fix prices, screw dumb customers, put a stop to competition and raid the Treasury in case they go broke.
That's correct. That's free enterprise. And that's correct.
The poor have done something very wrong or they wouldn't be poor, so their children should pay the consequences.
That's correct.
The United States of America cannot be expected to look after its people.
That's correct.
The free market will do that.
That's correct.
The free market is an automatic system of justice.
That's correct.
And so on.
If you actually are an educated, thinking person, you will not be welcome in Washington, D.C. I know a couple of bright seventh graders who would not be welcomed in Washington, D.C.
Do you remember those doctors a few years back who got together and announced that it was a simple, clear medical fact that we could not survive even a moderate attack by hydrogen bombs? They were not welcome in Washington, D.C.
Even if we fired the first salvo of hydrogen weapons and the enemy never fired back, the poisons released would probably kill the whole planet by and by.
What is the response in Washington? They guess otherwise. What good is an education? The boisterous guessers are still in charge--the haters of information. And the guessers are almost all highly educated people. Think of that. They have had to throw away their educations, even Harvard or Yale educations, to become guessers. If they didn't do that, there is no way their uninhibited guessing could go on and on and on.
Please, don't you do that. But let me warn you, if you make use of the vast fund of knowledge now available to educated persons, you are going to be lonesome as hell. The guessers outnumber you--and now I have to guess--about ten to one.
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Posted by: pixiequix on Dec 16, 2005 2:04 AM
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» RE: thank you
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: Pendelton on Dec 16, 2005 2:21 AM
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I am more sorry than saddened to read this. At this point in time all I can do is to write my elected govt officials that I will not vote for them if they do not support Campain Finance Reform. Also an open letter to local newspapers MAY get another literate reader to act.
Our government is for sale to the higest bidder. The higest bidder being corporations. Corporations exist to make a profit. Money is being "poured" into a "military" budget instead of a defense budget. While college students struggle for financing. I have not forgotten the blistering lack of social programs. We have homelessness here in the good olde U.S. of A. Elected officials that get more that basic medical/dental & retirement pensions that an increasing number of our citizens can't afford.
impeachbush.org could use more support
without your involvement don't complain when our Country evolves into a Fascist State.
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» RE: Pendelton
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Pendelton
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Pendelton
Posted by: DFrost
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Posted by: Wildfeather on Dec 16, 2005 2:50 AM
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» RE: "You Are Already Dead in Illium"
Posted by: NYRugby
» RE: "You Are Already Dead in Illium"
Posted by: Kneel
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Posted by: Sparks56 on Dec 16, 2005 3:21 AM
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I don't think Vonnegut's America is very much different than Twain's America. In "Huckleberry Finn" Twain introduces the Duke and the Dauphin, a couple of hustlers, con men, snake oil salesmen. The Duke and the Dauphin have prospered in America. They are now the President and Vice President of this great nation.
In "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" Twain illustrates in several scenes and plot turns that many people would much rather believe the most fanciful, patently impossible yarns than the plain obvious truth in front of their face. No change there either.
In this democracy, voting is the minimum requirement. But voting alone never changed anything. In the history of America, progressive change, i.e. women's right, racial civil rights, workers rights, the environmental movement, etc. etc. came about through only through much work and struggle, some of it bloody. People committed their lives to their cause.
Congressional elections are looming. If your representative is not of your liking, let her know, loudly, daily. Go to work for the challenger, and let he or she know, loudly, daily, how you feel. Go door to door in your neighborhood and try to drum up support. If nothing else, you'll know your neighbors better.
Progressive change never " just happens".
Remember the last page of "God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater" by Kurt Vonnegut. "The earth is warm, wet, and crowded. ...There's only one rule; please be kind."
Chris Murphy for Congress, Conn. 5th District
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» RE: Mark Twain
Posted by: jaydenari
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Posted by: Pepper on Dec 16, 2005 4:07 AM
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Since when did the state own the bodies of little children to do with as they will???
These are highly educated people and yet they are "soulless" or they couldn't do this. So, I believe that is the final determining factor in this piece that he missed. The guessing is to support their soulless existance and conscienceless condition, in other words their "psychopathy".
Sexual abuse of the Iraqi children in front of their mothers is a good example: who in thier right mind would even imagine such an act??? No one I know, I don't think! Well, maybe one guy I know who is capable of that, but he is not in power.
He is not only right, but actually being kind in a perverse sort of way.
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» RE: He is so right on! I just sent a letter to my congressman.......
Posted by: Pepper
» Sociopath
Posted by: aztec
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Dec 16, 2005 5:13 AM
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Tom Degan
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Posted by: DFrost on Dec 16, 2005 5:47 AM
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» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: a_civilian
» OK!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: OK!
Posted by: SDres11
» RE: OK!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: OK!
Posted by: NDnative
» Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: A. James
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: ditkus
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: sevengen
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: SDres11
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: NDnative
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: sevengen
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: JayLab
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: Pepper
» Let me guess...Pentagon?...CIA?...FBI?
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: Roverton
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: don't throw out the baby with the bathwater
Posted by: ScottP
» RE: don't throw out the baby with the bathwater
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: don't throw out the baby with the bathwater
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: Jayzer
» As opposed to henry Kissinger? Vonnegut is a purist.
Posted by: kooz
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: kk33deg
» Handicapped by Absence?
Posted by: Artkansas
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Dec 16, 2005 6:51 AM
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» RE: xtremely sad, but extremely true.
Posted by: mazel
» RE: xtremely sad, but extremely true.
Posted by: NoPCZone
» Iceland collected
Posted by: Lincoln fan
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Dec 16, 2005 7:18 AM
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They can tell you who is screwing who in Hollywood but cannot tell you who is their State or Federal Representatives in the Legislature or Congress.
They have little or no knowledge of our country, it's founding, the Federalist Papers or other important writings that have formed our government.
They have little knowledge or interest in current issues on the national or international stage unless it will acutely affect them.
They have a very shallow and sloganeered understanding of the divisive issues in our country-- the line of demarcation between left and right, etc.
Their ill informed and ill-considered vote counts just as much as everyone else.
Amazing, simply amazing.
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» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: DaigleD
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: mr. joshua
» Dark Ages
Posted by: aztec
» Half of us are dumber than that
Posted by: Bic Pentameter
» RE: Half of us are dumber than that
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Half of us are dumber than that
Posted by: mr. joshua
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: pomes
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: yesman
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: pickeju
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dikaiosyne on Dec 16, 2005 7:30 AM
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» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: Dave04
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: mewhins24
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: Father Paul
» Hey DIK - You Blew It On That "Trying to Sound Intelligent" Thing
Posted by: TheySayImUnamerican
» RE: Consequential?
Posted by: joyartist
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: NamVeT
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: ankhet
» if he's of no consequnece why are you commenting?
Posted by: kooz
» He's not poor, he's my brother.
Posted by: kooz
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: kooz
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: kooz
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: doneman2000
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Posted by: reason on Dec 16, 2005 8:24 AM
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Posted by: DFrost on Dec 16, 2005 8:25 AM
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Kisses,
DFrost
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» How droll
Posted by: sausage
» Sure there is!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Sure there is!
Posted by: Roverton
» Postal management, I'd say
Posted by: sausage
» Keep guessing!
Posted by: DFrost
» Dfrost teaches his son to love Hitler, Nixon, Ken Lay, Reagan, Bush, Limbaugh, Delay, Robertson ,
Posted by: maxpayne
» Hitler killed several of DFrost's relatives.
Posted by: DFrost
» Too bad Dfrost doesn't know how to use common sense.
Posted by: SDres11
» About as half-witted a response as they come
Posted by: DFrost
» Whoa Dfrost, get your facts straight before you get too personal.
Posted by: maxpayne
» get your facts straight
Posted by: DFrost
» Frost can't get his own facts straight so he tries to tell others to accept his lies.
Posted by: maxpayne
» No kidding. We need to stop allowing conservatives to define their lies as facts.
Posted by: NDnative
» RE: Keep guessing!
Posted by: clarence
» RE: Sure there is!
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: Roverton
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: Roverton
» I bet you agree with this wingnut e-mail, DFrost
Posted by: sausage
» Really?
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: I bet you agree with this wingnut e-mail, DFrost
Posted by: yesman
» RE: I bet you agree with this wingnut e-mail, DFrost
Posted by: spacey300
» An idiot couldn't have said it better.
Posted by: kooz
» Don't be so modest!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Don't be so modest!
Posted by: kooz
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: yesman
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: spacey300
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: SDres11
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: ALANHESTER
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Posted by: Roverton on Dec 16, 2005 9:06 AM
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1. If one group of lost souls are the "Libs". Is the other lost group known as the "Cons"?
2. If one group was brain washed, might the other group be susceptible to the same conditioning?
3. Would a member of a group know they were brainwashed, or would another have to point it out?
4. How do we know for certain that we're NOT all brain washed at once?
5. Are our lives as they stand, proof that we're not brain washed?
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» RE: Excellent
Posted by: aztec
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Dec 16, 2005 9:19 AM
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Those guessers in Washington threw away their educations because they did not value their educations beyond what could be gained in power and riches. And they don't value education for the rest of us either, because that might threaten their continued power and riches; so they claim to support education while slashing school budgets and pushing idiocies like the teaching of creationism in the guise of (un)"intelligent design." They know that it is easier to influence the noise in all of OUR heads than to try and put something over on a rational, inquisitive mind – like the mind of someone who has benefitted from a good education. (The shell game is harder to play when the victim is really paying attention.)
Also, many in Washington have abandoned rationality for the egocentric seduction of the noise in their own heads, what I think of as "The Philosopher-King Delusion." They in a sense have taken themselves back to the pre-Copernican days of the Earth-centered universe – except that now the universe revolves around THEM.
The Powers That Be want us all dumb, fat and happy (or at least anesthetized) –– and it seems that they are getting their wish.
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» RE: A good education = a good crap detector.
Posted by: yesman
» RE: A good education = a good crap detector.
Posted by: ALANHESTER
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Posted by: kooz on Dec 16, 2005 10:55 AM
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But the leaders in Washington are cynical liars. My educated guess tells me that more Republicans are liars than Democrats. Further, that more wealthy elitist types are liars than the less well-to-do and of modest means types. That rich people get away with lying more than poor people do but only because their money lends itself to identity with those in position to judge. As an example, follow the that stupid rich kid, (A future George W. Bush) with the gambling addiciton who robbed banks. He has the mopney to pay for his lies. If he were poor, no matter what race, he'd be getting f*****d in the butthole in some prison weight room by savages put there by, I guess, rich people who tip the scales of justice agianst the poor.
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» RE: Not guessers more than liars
Posted by: real liberal
» RE: Not guessers more than liars
Posted by: spacey300
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Posted by: deha on Dec 16, 2005 12:09 PM
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Fun stuff, I say.
And we should really all get back to work, not just dfrost who probably isn't completely rotten even though he's employed by a rotten system for which we are ALL responsible. As for me, I've got to go impose my liberal bias on some college students and grade their final papers. Maybe I'll try something new this time and base their grades on their punctuation instead of their ideas. It would surely be easier than evaluating the actual argument.
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» RE: Aren't trolls fun?
Posted by: yesman
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Posted by: kevo on Dec 16, 2005 1:53 PM
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Dec 16, 2005 3:53 PM
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Our policies have wrecked havoc upon the planet by endorsing capitalism. It's a shame we have educated people running (or ruining) our government and they seem to hold fast to lassiez-faire style of leading the USA off the precipice.
Journalists can't get information from any politician in D.C.; they get the runaround. Our leaders are tight-lipped and have cold feet. They're not forthcoming with their intentions. They act ignorant of the facts swirling about them. Ignorance is bliss. But we're not dumb. We will one day pay for our ignorance.
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Posted by: cyberfactotum on Dec 16, 2005 4:20 PM
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Though you may not have heard of me, Gregore Salmon--since my blogs have been up till now only available as filler in pornographic internet sites--my studies conclude that every bit of law in Washington is controlled by only about forty people, themselves all ignorant guessers. My research indicates that these people are currently about to implement their guessing/governing rights even more fully by placing ‘no thinking’ signs on every street corner in Washington and giving everyone free TVs (recycled from old Howard Johnson Inn rooms) with no OFF power switches, so they can exist without actually thinking at all ever again.
Even though no one but my parakeet, Moyers, and my artist friend Rabo agrees with my thoughts here, reading Mr. Vonnegut’s article and most of the (non-ignorant-guessing) comments here, has heartened and inspired me to post this, my own comment.
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» RE: Now It Can Be Guessed
Posted by: dragonfire6012
» RE: Now It Can Be Guessed
Posted by: cyberfactotum
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 16, 2005 5:26 PM
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Posted by: yesman on Dec 16, 2005 9:33 PM
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» RE: not really "guessers"
Posted by: tcx2
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Posted by: clarence on Dec 16, 2005 11:33 PM
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Seriously, when guys like that show up, we should just answer them with deafening silence. If they have some kind of real question or valid criticism we should answer it, but rising to the bait of their stupidicisms just wastes our time and encourages them.
"If a right-wing lackey posted a comment on alternet and nobody responded, would anybody care?"
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» RE: Hooray!
Posted by: liberalibrarian
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Posted by: guijackb on Dec 17, 2005 6:01 AM
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Maybe, after I've had coffee, I'll try guessing again.
Jack Ballinger
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» RE: I'm Guessing Our Goose Is Cooked.
Posted by: vespasian01
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Posted by: dikaiosyne on Dec 17, 2005 7:21 AM
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» So sad that pissing off people makes your day
Posted by: deha
» RE: So sad that pissing off people makes your day
Posted by: morticia
» Do not feed the trolls
Posted by: tcx2
» RE: Do not feed the trolls
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: veive on Dec 17, 2005 10:36 AM
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Visit for some consolation.
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» RE: Ignorance ain't always bliss
Posted by: SDres11
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Posted by: shadow7 on Dec 17, 2005 11:01 AM
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GW BUSH - DEAF MAN, TALKING
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» RE: Bush: Deaf Man Talking
Posted by: bambic
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Posted by: vespasian01 on Dec 18, 2005 1:50 AM
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~pax nobis~
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» RE: critics of KV missing the medium
Posted by: morticia
» RE: critics of KV missing the medium
Posted by: vespasian01
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Posted by: decembrist on Dec 18, 2005 3:21 AM
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Just the first lines....
While this America settles in the mould of its vulgarity,
heavily thickening to empire,
And protest, only a bubble in the molten mass, pops
and sighs out, and the bubble bursts...
From Robinson Jeffers' "Shine, Perishing Republic"
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» More Poetry
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: More Poetry
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: may261989 on Dec 18, 2005 9:01 PM
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The right wing trolls on this message board will never get the message , they claim intelligence yet bray like donkeys when criticism is levelled at the most stupid idiot to rule any nation in the history of this planet.
Mr Vonnegut you have been an inspiration to us Colonials DownUnder with your insight into humanity.. and you have given us some hope that somewhere in America voices of reason and understanding still exist.
p.s.
I wonder, do Right wingers share their toys? Isnt that Socialism :)
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» RE: An inspiration lost on modern America
Posted by: kryptx
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Posted by: small town mind on Dec 21, 2005 12:37 PM
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Posted by: pixiequix on Dec 16, 2005 2:04 AM
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» RE: thank you
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: Pendelton on Dec 16, 2005 2:21 AM
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I am more sorry than saddened to read this. At this point in time all I can do is to write my elected govt officials that I will not vote for them if they do not support Campain Finance Reform. Also an open letter to local newspapers MAY get another literate reader to act.
Our government is for sale to the higest bidder. The higest bidder being corporations. Corporations exist to make a profit. Money is being "poured" into a "military" budget instead of a defense budget. While college students struggle for financing. I have not forgotten the blistering lack of social programs. We have homelessness here in the good olde U.S. of A. Elected officials that get more that basic medical/dental & retirement pensions that an increasing number of our citizens can't afford.
impeachbush.org could use more support
without your involvement don't complain when our Country evolves into a Fascist State.
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» RE: Pendelton
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Pendelton
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Pendelton
Posted by: DFrost
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Wildfeather on Dec 16, 2005 2:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: "You Are Already Dead in Illium"
Posted by: NYRugby
» RE: "You Are Already Dead in Illium"
Posted by: Kneel
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sparks56 on Dec 16, 2005 3:21 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think Vonnegut's America is very much different than Twain's America. In "Huckleberry Finn" Twain introduces the Duke and the Dauphin, a couple of hustlers, con men, snake oil salesmen. The Duke and the Dauphin have prospered in America. They are now the President and Vice President of this great nation.
In "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" Twain illustrates in several scenes and plot turns that many people would much rather believe the most fanciful, patently impossible yarns than the plain obvious truth in front of their face. No change there either.
In this democracy, voting is the minimum requirement. But voting alone never changed anything. In the history of America, progressive change, i.e. women's right, racial civil rights, workers rights, the environmental movement, etc. etc. came about through only through much work and struggle, some of it bloody. People committed their lives to their cause.
Congressional elections are looming. If your representative is not of your liking, let her know, loudly, daily. Go to work for the challenger, and let he or she know, loudly, daily, how you feel. Go door to door in your neighborhood and try to drum up support. If nothing else, you'll know your neighbors better.
Progressive change never " just happens".
Remember the last page of "God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater" by Kurt Vonnegut. "The earth is warm, wet, and crowded. ...There's only one rule; please be kind."
Chris Murphy for Congress, Conn. 5th District
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» RE: Mark Twain
Posted by: jaydenari
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Pepper on Dec 16, 2005 4:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since when did the state own the bodies of little children to do with as they will???
These are highly educated people and yet they are "soulless" or they couldn't do this. So, I believe that is the final determining factor in this piece that he missed. The guessing is to support their soulless existance and conscienceless condition, in other words their "psychopathy".
Sexual abuse of the Iraqi children in front of their mothers is a good example: who in thier right mind would even imagine such an act??? No one I know, I don't think! Well, maybe one guy I know who is capable of that, but he is not in power.
He is not only right, but actually being kind in a perverse sort of way.
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» RE: He is so right on! I just sent a letter to my congressman.......
Posted by: Pepper
» Sociopath
Posted by: aztec
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Dec 16, 2005 5:13 AM
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Tom Degan
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: DFrost on Dec 16, 2005 5:47 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: a_civilian
» OK!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: OK!
Posted by: SDres11
» RE: OK!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: OK!
Posted by: NDnative
» Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: A. James
» RE: Yawn right back at ya!
Posted by: ditkus
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: sevengen
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: SDres11
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: NDnative
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: sevengen
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: JayLab
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: Pepper
» Let me guess...Pentagon?...CIA?...FBI?
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: Roverton
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: don't throw out the baby with the bathwater
Posted by: ScottP
» RE: don't throw out the baby with the bathwater
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: don't throw out the baby with the bathwater
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: Jayzer
» As opposed to henry Kissinger? Vonnegut is a purist.
Posted by: kooz
» RE: Yawn.
Posted by: kk33deg
» Handicapped by Absence?
Posted by: Artkansas
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Dec 16, 2005 6:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: xtremely sad, but extremely true.
Posted by: mazel
» RE: xtremely sad, but extremely true.
Posted by: NoPCZone
» Iceland collected
Posted by: Lincoln fan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Dec 16, 2005 7:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They can tell you who is screwing who in Hollywood but cannot tell you who is their State or Federal Representatives in the Legislature or Congress.
They have little or no knowledge of our country, it's founding, the Federalist Papers or other important writings that have formed our government.
They have little knowledge or interest in current issues on the national or international stage unless it will acutely affect them.
They have a very shallow and sloganeered understanding of the divisive issues in our country-- the line of demarcation between left and right, etc.
Their ill informed and ill-considered vote counts just as much as everyone else.
Amazing, simply amazing.
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» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: DaigleD
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: mr. joshua
» Dark Ages
Posted by: aztec
» Half of us are dumber than that
Posted by: Bic Pentameter
» RE: Half of us are dumber than that
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Half of us are dumber than that
Posted by: mr. joshua
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: pomes
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: yesman
» RE: The Scariest Thing
Posted by: pickeju
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dikaiosyne on Dec 16, 2005 7:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: Dave04
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: mewhins24
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: Father Paul
» Hey DIK - You Blew It On That "Trying to Sound Intelligent" Thing
Posted by: TheySayImUnamerican
» RE: Consequential?
Posted by: joyartist
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: NamVeT
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: ankhet
» if he's of no consequnece why are you commenting?
Posted by: kooz
» He's not poor, he's my brother.
Posted by: kooz
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: kooz
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: ankhet
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: kooz
» RE: Poor Mr. Vonnegut
Posted by: doneman2000
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reason on Dec 16, 2005 8:24 AM
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: DFrost on Dec 16, 2005 8:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kisses,
DFrost
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» How droll
Posted by: sausage
» Sure there is!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Sure there is!
Posted by: Roverton
» Postal management, I'd say
Posted by: sausage
» Keep guessing!
Posted by: DFrost
» Dfrost teaches his son to love Hitler, Nixon, Ken Lay, Reagan, Bush, Limbaugh, Delay, Robertson ,
Posted by: maxpayne
» Hitler killed several of DFrost's relatives.
Posted by: DFrost
» Too bad Dfrost doesn't know how to use common sense.
Posted by: SDres11
» About as half-witted a response as they come
Posted by: DFrost
» Whoa Dfrost, get your facts straight before you get too personal.
Posted by: maxpayne
» get your facts straight
Posted by: DFrost
» Frost can't get his own facts straight so he tries to tell others to accept his lies.
Posted by: maxpayne
» No kidding. We need to stop allowing conservatives to define their lies as facts.
Posted by: NDnative
» RE: Keep guessing!
Posted by: clarence
» RE: Sure there is!
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: jeff2045
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: Roverton
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: Roverton
» I bet you agree with this wingnut e-mail, DFrost
Posted by: sausage
» Really?
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: I bet you agree with this wingnut e-mail, DFrost
Posted by: yesman
» RE: I bet you agree with this wingnut e-mail, DFrost
Posted by: spacey300
» An idiot couldn't have said it better.
Posted by: kooz
» Don't be so modest!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Don't be so modest!
Posted by: kooz
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: yesman
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: spacey300
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: SDres11
» RE: Now, now.
Posted by: ALANHESTER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Roverton on Dec 16, 2005 9:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. If one group of lost souls are the "Libs". Is the other lost group known as the "Cons"?
2. If one group was brain washed, might the other group be susceptible to the same conditioning?
3. Would a member of a group know they were brainwashed, or would another have to point it out?
4. How do we know for certain that we're NOT all brain washed at once?
5. Are our lives as they stand, proof that we're not brain washed?
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» RE: Excellent
Posted by: aztec
Comments are closed-
Posted by: monkeywrench on Dec 16, 2005 9:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those guessers in Washington threw away their educations because they did not value their educations beyond what could be gained in power and riches. And they don't value education for the rest of us either, because that might threaten their continued power and riches; so they claim to support education while slashing school budgets and pushing idiocies like the teaching of creationism in the guise of (un)"intelligent design." They know that it is easier to influence the noise in all of OUR heads than to try and put something over on a rational, inquisitive mind – like the mind of someone who has benefitted from a good education. (The shell game is harder to play when the victim is really paying attention.)
Also, many in Washington have abandoned rationality for the egocentric seduction of the noise in their own heads, what I think of as "The Philosopher-King Delusion." They in a sense have taken themselves back to the pre-Copernican days of the Earth-centered universe – except that now the universe revolves around THEM.
The Powers That Be want us all dumb, fat and happy (or at least anesthetized) –– and it seems that they are getting their wish.
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» RE: A good education = a good crap detector.
Posted by: yesman
» RE: A good education = a good crap detector.
Posted by: ALANHESTER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kooz on Dec 16, 2005 10:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the leaders in Washington are cynical liars. My educated guess tells me that more Republicans are liars than Democrats. Further, that more wealthy elitist types are liars than the less well-to-do and of modest means types. That rich people get away with lying more than poor people do but only because their money lends itself to identity with those in position to judge. As an example, follow the that stupid rich kid, (A future George W. Bush) with the gambling addiciton who robbed banks. He has the mopney to pay for his lies. If he were poor, no matter what race, he'd be getting f*****d in the butthole in some prison weight room by savages put there by, I guess, rich people who tip the scales of justice agianst the poor.
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» RE: Not guessers more than liars
Posted by: real liberal
» RE: Not guessers more than liars
Posted by: spacey300
Comments are closed-
Posted by: deha on Dec 16, 2005 12:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fun stuff, I say.
And we should really all get back to work, not just dfrost who probably isn't completely rotten even though he's employed by a rotten system for which we are ALL responsible. As for me, I've got to go impose my liberal bias on some college students and grade their final papers. Maybe I'll try something new this time and base their grades on their punctuation instead of their ideas. It would surely be easier than evaluating the actual argument.
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» RE: Aren't trolls fun?
Posted by: yesman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kevo on Dec 16, 2005 1:53 PM
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Dec 16, 2005 3:53 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our policies have wrecked havoc upon the planet by endorsing capitalism. It's a shame we have educated people running (or ruining) our government and they seem to hold fast to lassiez-faire style of leading the USA off the precipice.
Journalists can't get information from any politician in D.C.; they get the runaround. Our leaders are tight-lipped and have cold feet. They're not forthcoming with their intentions. They act ignorant of the facts swirling about them. Ignorance is bliss. But we're not dumb. We will one day pay for our ignorance.
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Posted by: cyberfactotum on Dec 16, 2005 4:20 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Though you may not have heard of me, Gregore Salmon--since my blogs have been up till now only available as filler in pornographic internet sites--my studies conclude that every bit of law in Washington is controlled by only about forty people, themselves all ignorant guessers. My research indicates that these people are currently about to implement their guessing/governing rights even more fully by placing ‘no thinking’ signs on every street corner in Washington and giving everyone free TVs (recycled from old Howard Johnson Inn rooms) with no OFF power switches, so they can exist without actually thinking at all ever again.
Even though no one but my parakeet, Moyers, and my artist friend Rabo agrees with my thoughts here, reading Mr. Vonnegut’s article and most of the (non-ignorant-guessing) comments here, has heartened and inspired me to post this, my own comment.
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» RE: Now It Can Be Guessed
Posted by: dragonfire6012
» RE: Now It Can Be Guessed
Posted by: cyberfactotum
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 16, 2005 5:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: yesman on Dec 16, 2005 9:33 PM
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» RE: not really "guessers"
Posted by: tcx2
Comments are closed-
Posted by: clarence on Dec 16, 2005 11:33 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seriously, when guys like that show up, we should just answer them with deafening silence. If they have some kind of real question or valid criticism we should answer it, but rising to the bait of their stupidicisms just wastes our time and encourages them.
"If a right-wing lackey posted a comment on alternet and nobody responded, would anybody care?"
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» RE: Hooray!
Posted by: liberalibrarian
Comments are closed-
Posted by: guijackb on Dec 17, 2005 6:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe, after I've had coffee, I'll try guessing again.
Jack Ballinger
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» RE: I'm Guessing Our Goose Is Cooked.
Posted by: vespasian01
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dikaiosyne on Dec 17, 2005 7:21 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» So sad that pissing off people makes your day
Posted by: deha
» RE: So sad that pissing off people makes your day
Posted by: morticia
» Do not feed the trolls
Posted by: tcx2
» RE: Do not feed the trolls
Posted by: morticia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: veive on Dec 17, 2005 10:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Visit for some consolation.
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» RE: Ignorance ain't always bliss
Posted by: SDres11
Comments are closed-
Posted by: shadow7 on Dec 17, 2005 11:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GW BUSH - DEAF MAN, TALKING
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» RE: Bush: Deaf Man Talking
Posted by: bambic
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Posted by: vespasian01 on Dec 18, 2005 1:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
~pax nobis~
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» RE: critics of KV missing the medium
Posted by: morticia
» RE: critics of KV missing the medium
Posted by: vespasian01
Comments are closed-
Posted by: decembrist on Dec 18, 2005 3:21 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just the first lines....
While this America settles in the mould of its vulgarity,
heavily thickening to empire,
And protest, only a bubble in the molten mass, pops
and sighs out, and the bubble bursts...
From Robinson Jeffers' "Shine, Perishing Republic"
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» More Poetry
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: More Poetry
Posted by: morticia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: may261989 on Dec 18, 2005 9:01 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The right wing trolls on this message board will never get the message , they claim intelligence yet bray like donkeys when criticism is levelled at the most stupid idiot to rule any nation in the history of this planet.
Mr Vonnegut you have been an inspiration to us Colonials DownUnder with your insight into humanity.. and you have given us some hope that somewhere in America voices of reason and understanding still exist.
p.s.
I wonder, do Right wingers share their toys? Isnt that Socialism :)
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» RE: An inspiration lost on modern America
Posted by: kryptx
Comments are closed-
Posted by: small town mind on Dec 21, 2005 12:37 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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