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Why Arnold Killed Tookie

By Dave Zirin, AlterNet. Posted December 13, 2005.


This is Schwarzenegger's 'mission accomplished' moment for his right wing, pro-death base; but his 'mission' will fail.

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[Editor's Note: WireTap Magazine sent a reporter to cover the protests at San Quentin Prison last night and this morning. Please read Tookie's Final Hour for Jennifer Liss' report and photos from the prison.]

In the end, we can only assume the decision wasn't so "agonizing" after all. Last night Stan Tookie Williams was legally lynched by the state of California, at the behest of Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger who denied Williams' appeal for clemency. The Governor deemed that a man who had been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize five times and brokered gang truces from Newark to South Central was not worthy to walk and breathe among us.

Stan's case for clemency was so compelling it was articulated by people from Desmond Tutu to Snoop Dogg, and yet, watching Schwarzenegger in action has been to observe the nexus of cold-hearted political calculation and cowardice.

Williams' Attorney John Harris challenged the governor to meet with Tookie, saying to the San Francisco Chronicle, "It's impossible to me to believe that if you had met Stanley Williams and spent time with him, that you would not believe in his personal redemption." But that would require a courage the Governor has never demonstrated.

Unlike the movie tough guy always ready to look his victims in the eye -- a quip at the ready -- before shooting, stabbing, or beheading them, Arnold made his decision at safe remove, hanging out this weekend at his son's soccer game, his face a waxy mask of carefree detachment, while Tookie's supporters organized, marched, chanted and prayed themselves hoarse.

When it finally came time for Arnold to announce his personal judgment that Stan Williams should die, tragedy became farce. The Governor's office released an ugly scandalous diatribe that qualifies as nothing less than hate-speech.

As he -- or his script doctor -- wrote:

"The dedication of Williams' book Life in Prison casts significant doubt on his personal redemption. This book was published in 1998, several years after Williams' redemptive experience. Specifically the book is dedicated to Nelson Mandela, Angela Davis, Malcolm X, Assata Shakur, Geronimo Ji Jaga Pratt, Ramona Africa, John Africa, Leonard Peltier, George Jackson, Mumia Abu Jamal, and the countless other men, women, and youths, who have to endure the hellish oppression of living behind bars. The mix of individuals on this list is curious. Most have violent pasts and some have been convicted of committing heinous murders including the killing of law enforcement. But the inclusion of George Jackson on this list defies reason and is a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems."

For Tookie, all of these folks, from Mandela, to Malcolm, to Assata, are one and the same: people of color who strove for liberation in the darkest of circumstances. For Schwarzenegger, the whole lot is the same as well: people who are his political enemies because they refused to be broken. Notice the singling out of George Jackson, author of Soledad Brother, a book for which there is no evidence Schwarzenegger has so much as skimmed. Jackson was someone who despite being framed for his political activism never stopped organizing. That is the person Schwarzenegger wants to kill by executing Tookie.

Later, Arnold passes judgment on Williams' very redemption, writing, "Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise? . . . Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings there can be no redemption." In other words, because Williams has consistently defended his own innocence, he should die. But as Tookie once said, "Many people expect me to apologize for crimes I didn't commit--just to save my life. Of course I want to live, but not by having to lie."


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Dave Zirin is the author of "What's My Name Fool? Sports and Resistance in the United States." Read more of his work at Edgeofsports.com.

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View:
Evangelical Hypocrites
Posted by: chuckpaugh on Dec 13, 2005 5:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The case of Mr. Williams being denied clemency and appeals to his death sentence goes to show the contradiction in theology within the currently popular fundamentalist Evangelical cult. I call it a cult because it does not adhere to the teachings of Christianity. It calls for the murder of abortion doctors, it calls for murder in criminal cases, yet it says that ALL LIFE IS SACRED when it comes to the abortion issue and those on life support. Jesus himself was very adamant that capital punishment was a sin and not to be allowed by Christianity. Yet, the popular Evangelical cult salivates at the idea of pulling the switch with such leaders as Pat Robertson calling for the assassination of world leaders. The fundamentalist Evangelical cult is nothing more than the American version of the Taliban.

» RE: vangelical Hypocrites Posted by: iqanh
» RE: vangelical Hypocrites Posted by: porgygirl
» RE: vangelical Hypocrites Posted by: neojerk
» RE: vangelical Hypocrites Posted by: Lizka
The P.O.T. Party vs The Terminator
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Dec 13, 2005 6:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People Over Tyrants Party strongly condems this act of murder. Killers,real or set-up,are already out of society and that's where you'd want people like that. Spending ones life behind bars is a hell world to start with. Finding the will to work for postive change in such an environment only shows
transformation can and does take place. The fact that we have a death penalty makes us more like animals than rational humans. This treatment must end.
Most folks are hearing of this party for the first time here, for good reason. We are against the Tyranny of the People.
If you want to join ,all you have to do is be sick of this kind of crap.Sick of non-violent people being put in prison and jail. Sick of innocents being killed for political ends. Sick of humans being treated like chattle,used and abused to help keep the money so far out of the people's hands,you'd need the Hubble Telescope to find a nickel.
Check out yesterday's post about the Ohio fiasco. The party might be in it's infancy,but infants grow,and besides
How much fun is it to throw a massive P.O.T. Party?

No big loss here.
Posted by: DFrost on Dec 13, 2005 6:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry, I'm not buying the "Tookie as great hero" line. The guy was a mass murderer and the only objection I have to his execution is that it was long overdue.

You can take a principled stand against the death penalty, if you wish, and that's another story and another debate. However, if there is to be a death penalty, Tookie certainly earned it.

As to whether he really turned his life around or not, I don't know (I suspect it was a put-on), but that's not the point. Because of Tookie, there are at least four people whose lives were brutally taken from them. Perhaps you could spare a thought for them, while you're heaping undeserved praise on this unrepentant killer.

» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: drone
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: airzona
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: mclare
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: jezzigogs
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: cynicl
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: DFrost
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: mclare
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: jag31
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: cynicl
» RE: Yes I would! Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: Lizka
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: DFrost
» Hi, again! Posted by: DFrost
» & on & on & on...... Posted by: adrianw
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: Lizka
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: Katrinepa
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: airzona
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: slav
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: mickey31
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: mclare
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: slav
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: Lizka
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: mclare
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: ALANHESTER
» Hey, Frost Posted by: russianblue1
» You're quibble on the word "mass". Posted by: ABetterFuture
» the real victims Posted by: kingfish
» RE: the real victims Posted by: Lizka
» RE: Hey, Frost Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: BLUEY
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: Liberal
» Liberal... Posted by: BEC
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: jokeer
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: PRETTYEYES26
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: kiacharon
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: Fuquan
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: Fuquan
» RE: No big loss here. Posted by: yellow
When you're right you're right
Posted by: Wolfe55 on Dec 13, 2005 6:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to weigh in on this issue. I consider myself a liberal but at the same time I KNOW from experiences in other countries that the death penalty is an extremely effective deterrent. I also feel that if we open the Pandora's Box of declaring that redemption has occurred while a death row inmate has been in prison then we will have convicts writing books all over the country in a frenzied attempt to demonstrate their newfound value to society. Perhaps Williams felt remorse over the terrible violence and transgressions committed by the Crips over the quarter-century he has been behind bars but he was still found guilty of a capitol crime and sentenced for it in accordance to the law. The real problem with crime and punishement in this country is that sentences are already too often set aside or dragged through the court system for years, instead of being administered in a timely manner. Defendants are dismissed every day because they did not receive a speedy trial. The families of Mr. Williams' victims had to wait 24 years for their justice, and whether or not you agree with his execution you have to admit, that is a long time to wait.

» For Wolfe55 Posted by: cyclone
» RE: For Wolfe55 Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: For Wolfe55 Posted by: cyclone
» RE: For Wolfe55 Posted by: YogiBear
Tookie was no saint, hero, or model citizen
Posted by: noelahg on Dec 13, 2005 7:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
His death is being used to further the anti-death panalty cause. I find it rather repulsive. What Tookie did was attempt to redeem himself (perhaps in an attempt to not be put to death?). That's all one can ever do when incarcerated. The fact of the matter is that he arbitrarily levied the death penalty on quite a few people (and most likely more that aren't known). His guilt wasn't in question. Because of the way our legal system is set up he was given the time to think and reflect on what he had done. That doesn't change the fact that he murdered people in cold blood, and I believe you should die for that. The victims aren't around to give their perspective.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Dec 13, 2005 7:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Why Arnold killed Tookie"?

The gubernator of kaleeforneeyah had nothing to do with Williams execution. A jury of William's peers found him guilty of slaying four people, a judgment that has stood for twenty five years.

If one insists on completely divorcing William's from his own accountability--and subsequent execution--for the commission of multiple murders, then the blame for said execution falls squarely on our society. There are plenty of rational reasons to oppose the death penalty. "The gubernator killed Tookie" because he's a big fat republican meany head is not chief among them; it is a distraction. A shallow, rather stupid one, at that.

There are also plenty of rational reasons not to oppose the Mr. Me-a-verse. That he did not preempt William's peers, who found him a murderer, and the many judges who ruled on his sentence is not, however, chief among them. It is merely a distraction. And, again, a shallow and rather stupid one at that.

» Oops. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Posted by: parochial
» Distractions. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Posted by: ALANHESTER
» And theoretically... Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Posted by: kiacharon
Will the real AlterNet readers please stand up?
Posted by: chitownfiloz on Dec 13, 2005 7:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am struck by the lack of compassion and abundance of ignorance in the preceding comments. This must be the work of AlterNet crashers because, while I don't want to essentialize the AlterNet reader, I find it unlikely that comments that seem to resemble some kind of conservative talking points would be the handiwork of those who enjoy the perspective of this site on a daily basis. I certainly don't understand why opposition to the death penalty is "another argument." If one stands in opposition to the death penalty, then one would certainly stand in opposition to killing Tookie Williams. The person who claimed that the death penalty is a deterrent needs to only do a cursory study of pretty much every industrialized nation's crime/murder rates compared to ours. Finally, I can accept that those who are in favor of the death penalty and against clemency en toto were in favor of killing Tookie Williams, but anyone who does not admit that he was the absolute posterboy for clemency (if we are to operate with clemency as a part of the system) does not know much about the case or Tookie's life.

» RE: When we do, we get banned! Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Addendum Posted by: Jarnsaxa
» RE: Addendum Posted by: YogiBear
I praise the system.
Posted by: libdisorder on Dec 13, 2005 7:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He's a killer. He was convicted. He was executed. I praise and embrace our justice system today, because it worked. Simple children's books and Nobel Peace Prize nominations do not change the fact that Williams was a killer. He was sentenced to death, and I am happy he has paid the ultimate price. Arnold didn't kill Tookie. Lethal injection prescribed by the justice system did. He's had his share of appeals which have been denied. I hope the families of the victims have some closure, if any. Another killer has been executed. Thank you.

» RE: I praise the system. Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: I praise the system. Posted by: cyclone
» RE: I praise the system. Posted by: dashtotexas
» RE: I praise the system. Posted by: Lizka
» RE: I praise the system. Posted by: Gisele
» RE: I praise the system. Posted by: jokeer
Oh and by the way...
Posted by: libdisorder on Dec 13, 2005 7:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Liberalism really is a mental disorder...

» And Neo-fascism isn't? Posted by: gs15
» RE: And Neo-fascism isn't? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: And Neo-fascism isn't? Posted by: Doug1956
» RE: And Neo-fascism isn't? Posted by: Common Sense
» RE: And Neo-fascism isn't? Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Oh and by the way... Posted by: mickey31
» RE: Oh and by the way... Posted by: Lizka
uk discust
Posted by: zsooki on Dec 13, 2005 7:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i think it is discusting and cowerdly how "govenor"arnold and the american judicial system can put a man to death in the blink of an eye!! sure he did rong whatever his crimes may be but people do change!! even the most evil of people can change!!TOOKIE WILLIAMS has spent his time in jail bettering himself tryin to make right his rongs! tookie williams has spent the best part of his life in jail and let me tell you thats no easy thing!! a life behind bars is enough for any man! i challenge george bush and now govenor swartzenegger to step up and be counted!! you have killed countless men not only within the american judicial; system but around the world! now is your time to take your penelty!? but no thats different! they are handing out justice!??? well from the united kingdom i can honestly say to you "THERE IS NO JUSTICE IS PUTTING SOMEONE TO DEATH!! ONLY AN ABUSE OF POWER!!"

» RE: uk discust Posted by: Common Sense
» RE: uk discust Posted by: taxidave
Tookie 4, Bush 32,000
Posted by: Artkansas on Dec 13, 2005 7:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we want to be fair, perhaps there are other mass murderers that we should consider bringing to justice. If Manson was culpable, why not Bush?

» RE: Tookie 4, Bush 32,000 Posted by: ALANHESTER
California is eerily resembling Kansas these days
Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 13, 2005 8:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the media defending Arnold's horrible record in the state by shifting to hot button issues such as death penalty proves it. Arnold couldn't keep the state in fiscal sanity so like most Republicans these days, he goes out on a limb and tries to hype what's left of his arrogant macho bullshit by making a big deal about the DEATH PENALTY just like he did ILLEGAL ALIENS. Arnold may want to take a cue from KILgore's defeat that in times of major crisis, bait and switching voters on cultural hot button issues doesn't pay. All CA needs is a populist Democrat, no more DLCers please, to send Arnold back to Hollywood where he belongs.

Barbarians breed barbaric behaviour
Posted by: wisewebwoman on Dec 13, 2005 8:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't this whole execution thing symptomatic of the outlook of the U.S.A. today? The eye for the eye thing. 3000 killed in the Towers, let's go kill 100,000 in Iraq. Death as the solution for any wrong done us, or not. Death as an unfortunate aside to life (how many American children are killed 'accidentally' by handguns ever year?) The carelessness of New Orleans still takes my breath away all those ignored warnings and for years. What is the infant mortality rate due to no health care??? One of the worst in the world, right. And more, and on -'friendly fire', my arse. Tookie is only a tiny sideshow to this empirical disdain for life - with one exception, the unborn babies.

Reap what u sow ...
Posted by: Blitzkrieg on Dec 13, 2005 8:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After reading and following what has happened ... they should have done it earlier and saved the taxpayer money, after all he showed no compassion why should anyone else, and now as per usual ur gonna throw up a racial issue ... you people cant get over it ... u get what u give ... end of story :)
And to top it off I'm from South Africa ... where murders rapes and armed robberies is becoming a national sport ...
Everyone deserves peace and happiness irrespective of race or upbringing and to those who go out their way to wreck lives .... just be thankful ... I wud have u shot on the spot :))

» RE: eap what u sow ... Posted by: cyclone
» RE: eap what u sow ... Posted by: Blitzkrieg
» RE: eap what u sow ... Posted by: cyclone
» RE: eap what u sow ... Posted by: Blitzkrieg
» RE: eap what u sow ... Posted by: cyclone
» RE: eap what u sow ... Posted by: ewfors
» RE: eap what u sow xxxx 2 :) Posted by: Blitzkrieg
» For Blitzkrieg Posted by: cyclone
» RE: For Blitzkrieg Posted by: Blitzkrieg
» RE: eap what u sow ... Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: eap what u sow ... Posted by: Blitzkrieg
» RE: eap what u sow ... Posted by: lady42
» Other words by a Great man Posted by: cyclone
» RE: Other words by a Great man Posted by: Blitzkrieg
» RE: Other words by a Great man Posted by: Blitzkrieg
The System Worked... Then Broke Down Again
Posted by: TheySayImUnamerican on Dec 13, 2005 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In theory - though rarely in actuality - the prison system is about incarceration for purposes of rehabilitation and eventual re-entry into society. Admittedly, the idea is a complete farce; it is a system of violence breeding violence, and those that are imprisoned, as often as not, come out even worse than when they went in.

But in this case, we saw a man who actually was rehabilitated. Whether it was because of the system or in spite of it, whether he changed to try to save his own life or those of others, is irrelevant. The fact is he had changed, and would have been a benefit, not a menace, to society had he been granted clemency.

Do remember that clemency is not a pardon; it is not a "get out of jail free" card. Those who believe Mr. Williams was still a ruthless killer did not need to peek over the fence whenever a U-Haul showed up to make sure Mr. Williams wasn't moving in next door. Odds are, even were his life spared, he'd have spent the rest of it behind bars. That isn't inappropriate, all things considered.

But I do believe he'd have spent that time doing good, as much as is possible from the confines of the american prison system. From what he accomplished over the years, it looks like quite a bit is possible for those who are so inclined.

This was a travesty. It was shameful. We had that rarest of exceptions - the person for whom the system did some good - and then went ahead and killed him anyway.

Typical.

» RE: The System Worked... Then Broke Down Again Posted by: straitenotleftorright
The Spirit and the Letter
Posted by: Sojourner on Dec 13, 2005 8:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Arnold had the opportunity to invoke the distinction between the spirit and the letter that is placed in the governor's hands because a law is only a means and a human being is an end in himself. I think he was wrong to refuse clemency.

I urged him by letter to grant clemency. I hope all his critics here did the same. But when it comes to what I think versus what he thinks, he was elected to do the best he can -- not to be a saint.

Scandalous Power Over Another Life
Posted by: porgygirl on Dec 13, 2005 8:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Something that's really been put into sharp relief by this case is the fact that it comes down to one person (the governor) making the final decision about whether another person (the condemned) should live or die.

This is horrifying on so many levels, but the one that strikes me the hardest is that Williams (guilty or not, redeemed or not) was ultimately executed because of a politically motivated decision by an ambitious man. It's a really stark instance of an ongoing horror: ambitious politicians have thrown away thousands and thousands of human lives, incarcerating and executing mostly poor and minority people (with sentences often grossly oversevere and meted out in unfair trials), in order to show how tough they are on crime.

Alas.

» You're forgetting... Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: You're forgetting... Posted by: porgygirl
» RE: You're forgetting... Posted by: liberalibrarian
» Except... Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: xcept... Posted by: porgygirl
» Question for ABetterFuture Posted by: cyclone
» Agree with you. Small suggestion. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Back at you. Posted by: ABetterFuture
You obviously didn't read my post very carefully
Posted by: chitownfiloz on Dec 13, 2005 8:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However you did manage to put a lot of words in my mouth. I specifically said that I did not want to essentialize "The AlterNet Reader" but that conservative talking points probably weren't on the tip of most of their tongues. Do you find this to be an unreasonable conclusion? I highly doubt many regular AlterNet readers would. If you are saying that it's okay for AlterNet readers to be death penalty advocates, I don't disagree with you and I never suggested otherwise. However, to say that the death penalty is a deterrent is flat-out ignorant. For every Singapore you want to use as an example, I can hold up 3 or 4 European countries that do not have the death penalty and have radically lower crime rates. That means that the death penalty as deterrent theory is inconclusive at best. Very few experts on the subject would even go that far. Most assert it is no deterrent at all. Further, my guess is that you wouldn't want any part of living under Singapore's laws.

Tookie is home... Arnold is not
Posted by: ggmurray on Dec 13, 2005 9:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well Tookie, you're home now, and safe from all the errors of our culture. Arnold unfortunately has shackled himself to the crime he could have avoided. Now you are free, and perhaps in time Arnold will find his own redemption. In the meantime, this crime is a burden he must bear.

» RE: My, your a nasty Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: Tookie is home... Arnold is not Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
My Point Of View
Posted by: donmega on Dec 13, 2005 9:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a young black man, I know how easy it is to pull the race card, but I do not. I understand how Tookie Williams was a product of his environment and this led him to create a family of brothers for security and recognition ("the crips"). This by no means excuses violence and murder, whether he is guilty or innocent, that is another debate. I admit that I was not that involved in keeping abreast of the details on this story until a while ago. I have watched the movie with Foxx. I have read a few articles. I researched the definition of clemency and cases where it has been granted. For the Govenor not to grant it defies the very definition and purpose of CLEMENCY. If it does not apply here, then when does it apply? And everybody wonders why alot of young black men are so frustrated and choose not to get involved in politics. Cuz we see bullsh&$ like this. White America DOES NOT CARE about real justice. It is just cold calculated politics. I guess from a shallow point of view I can say that the Governor better kiss the minority vote goodbye if he ever plans on running for anything else. First time he is faced with a real moral decision, he folds. 1,000's of childrens lives changed for the better, several Nobel Peace Prize nominations, and worldwide acclaim to me do not equate to a "shallow promise" as Arnold put it.

» RE: My Point Of View Posted by: mclare
» RE: My Point Of View Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: My Point Of View Posted by: tcx2
» RE: My Point Of View Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: My Point Of View Posted by: Wolfe55
Why should I feel compassion for a murderer?
Posted by: Boomerang on Dec 13, 2005 9:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Williams MURDERED four people. That judgement stood for 25 years. He betrayed everything civilized in society and earned a punishment he deserved.

Society is composed of laws, with accompanying punishments for breaking those laws. Williams committed one of the most heinous acts imaginable, he took the lives of four innocent people, and now people want to defend him? He earned his punishment, and not even his reform can spare him from justice.

Redemtion means to die? (in tookies case)
Posted by: jawkneemusic on Dec 13, 2005 9:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To me is seems that Arnold didn't have the courage to stand up to the hypocritical right winged agenda. Or maybe he saw this as an oppertunity to boost his approval rating considering that more then half of california is in support of this inhumane treament of prisoners. I think its sad that we live in a State or country even thats so Hypocritical that we condemn the murders of others across the globe but yet we throw a man in prison for 26 years and decided that after he has reformed to give hime the needle. Who knows if he really commited those crimes. And even if he did he served his time. No was one was asking for a release. He just wanted to live. Doesnt seem fair to justify the victims killings by killing. What kind of example are we setting for the future gernerations? I dont know those people who he supposedly killed but i doubt they would want him to share their fate. Just in september my best freind was shot by some punk ass little high school kids who think their in a gang. My freind was an active member at his church, he tought young children to read write spell, math and speak english as their seconed language. And he was shot dead by the same type of people Tookie was trying to help just cause he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now as angry as i was when i found out what happened to him. I wanted to kill the ones that did this to him. But after having enough time to think about it. Killing them will not bring my freind back. Same case with Tookie. Now i ask the families of the victims to look around the house, go into the room that their family member once to slept in and tell me if they have come home. I think its safe to assume they're still dead. May be insensitive to some but its the truth. I think we all need to learn a lesson from this. Capital punishment is no better then the person being punished for what they did. Eye for an eye? is that the American way, or the Californian way?

» RE: How Posted by: russianblue1
Killing
Posted by: leeman on Dec 13, 2005 9:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Without arguing Williams' innocence or guilt, there is always the possibility of executing an innocent person. The death penalty is final and irreversible.
The death penalty won't bring back a loved one, "closure" notwithstanding.
More effective than "an eye for an eye" might be providing financial aid and psychological counseling, to at least begin putting the family's shattered lives together.
The roster of nations that employ the death penalty includes such bastions of human rights as Saudi Arabia, China and Rwanda.
The death penalty, like torture, has no place in a civilized nation.

» RE: Killing Posted by: mclare
» RE: Killing Posted by: cyclone
» RE: Killing Posted by: YogiBear
Our Justice system is flawed
Posted by: OSimpson on Dec 13, 2005 10:01 AM   
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Our Justice system is completely flawed when it takes 24 years from conviction to sentence execution.

"Tookie" Williams was convicted of multiple homicides and sentenced to death. What govenor happens to be in office at the time his appeals FINALLY ran out is irrelevent.

Capital punishments ineffectiveness is due to how serious a deterrent is "If you kill someone we MIGHT put you to death in 20 years or so".

Where is the compassion and caring for the victims' families?
Posted by: thedude on Dec 13, 2005 10:19 AM   
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What about them? The writer of this article challenge's the Governor's courage by saying he didn't face "Tookie". Well what about Tookie facing the families of his victims? What about that courage? He MURDERED THOSE PEOPLE IN COLD BLOOD!! He killed an entire family people! Imagine the kind of ruthless and cold-blooded nature it would take to kill a whole family, mother, father, and daughter!
Here's my challenge to Tookie's supporters and to the writer of this article;
will you be there the next time a skinhead or a nazi is to be executed? Will you be there to defend the life of a convicted rapist or baby killer? Will you be there to defend Scott Peterson?
Or do you only support and defend the murderers when they're black and some celebrities like them?

» RE: Will I be there next time . . . ? Posted by: TheySayImUnamerican
Why is all this hate and anger aimed at Governor Schwarzaneggar?
Posted by: thedude on Dec 13, 2005 10:20 AM   
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Any of the previous California Governors could have granted Tookie clemency. Where is the rage and hate for them?

Forget about the dead much?
Posted by: lamar on Dec 13, 2005 10:21 AM   
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Or he killed Mr. Williams because Mr. Williams killed people. Maybe if Tookie Tookie can bring back those dead people, we'll let him live the rest of his life in jail.

TOOKIE DESERVED TO DIE
Posted by: auriferrous on Dec 13, 2005 10:26 AM   
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David Zirin;

I just read your article about Tookie Williams.



Please verify your facts before you write them because you do a disservice to yourself and your readers.



Tookie was not convicted by an all-white jury. One was Hispanic and one was half-black. I know it sounds better for your side of the argument, but, when held to the light, screams of ignorance.



Tookie did not help thousands of kids-only 300 of his books have been sold in the United States. Did “thousands” of kids share these 300 books?



Lastly, George Jackson was a horrible man. His people stormed the courtroom during his trial, took hostages and people ended up dead. The judge….two or three others….The governor was correct in writing that a man cannot be redeemed if he dedicates a children’s book to a killer.



If Tookie was truly redeemed, he would have turned state’s evidence concerning what he knew of the gangbangers he was involved with, but he didn’t want to be a “snitch”.

And he would have atoned for his barbaric murders. The case against him was overwhelming. The shotgun casing, the 38 witnesses who testified that they either saw Tookie commit the murders or heard him brag about them…Tookie’s handwritten escape plan to murder and blow up guards to make his escape….



This man deserved to die and the world is a better place for it.

» RE: TOOKIE DESERVED TO DIE Posted by: mclare
» RE: TOOKIE DESERVED TO DIE Posted by: thedude
» RE: TOOKIE DESERVED TO DIE Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: TOOKIE DESERVED TO DIE Posted by: thedude
» RE: TOOKIE DESERVED TO DIE Posted by: straitenotleftorright
Moral Authority?
Posted by: thedude on Dec 13, 2005 10:50 AM   
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the same people who protest the execution of Tookie are most likely the same ones who support Cindy Sheehan. And so to those people I offer this part of an article about this execution:

"Lora Owens, Owens' stepmother, watched Williams die. In the days before the execution, she was one of the outspoken advocates who believed the execution should go forward. She said her stepson was shot twice in the back, even though he begged Williams for his life."

So I guess that makes Lora Owens the "moral authority" in this situation under the guidelines set by the left-wingers.

» RE: Moral Authority? Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Moral Authority? Posted by: thedude
» RE: Moral Authority? Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Moral Authority? Posted by: thedude
What if he had gotten a life sentence instead of death?
Posted by: thedude on Dec 13, 2005 10:58 AM   
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Do you really think he would have been writing books and trying to play the martyr? Hell no! He would have beent he big dog in the big house running things. He would have just been another murderering piece of human excrement rotting away.

For Ahnold it was about votes
Posted by: LauraK on Dec 13, 2005 11:03 AM   
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Those of us here in CA who oppose the death penalty are unlikely at best to vote for Arnold no matter what he does about clemency. Remember, he also vetoed gay marriage legislation, gutted our already horrible workers' comp protections, etc. Granting clemency might have lost him some support both among his base and the rethug leadership in DC, but probably wouldn't have helped him much in terms of gaining support. That was his calculation, I'm sure. All the rest was window-dressing.

Some important details
Posted by: NthnBrazil on Dec 13, 2005 11:16 AM   
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Tookie by his own admission was a criminal, but he stopped short of admitting to these specific murders. From his own memoir he admited he beat people, robbed them, even shot at them, but said he never stuck around long enough to see if they lived or died. He didn't care. His inital time in prison was violent enough to gain him 6 years of solitary confinement, during which he had a spiritual epiphany and regretted his gang-banging youth. Only at this point, over 10 years after being in prison, did he even begin this much talked about work in children's books, preaching against gangs, etc.

I don't think anyone can credibly claim that if Tookie Williams hadn't been caught, prosecuted, & convicted that he would have had such a miraculous change of heart, since even the first few years of death row incarceration failed to spur a change in him.

He was arguably inspiration to some who have turned their lives around, but was unquestionably the inspiration for a generation of gang violence that has spread from South Central Los Angeles across the country.

Regardless, he was punished for his deeds before being in prison. How he used the time afforded him by the appeals process is irrelevant.

» And about those victims. . . Posted by: NthnBrazil
typical
Posted by: EddieG on Dec 13, 2005 11:26 AM   
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The title of this article is a prime example of the immaturity of so many on the far left. Completely ignore the fact that the people of California, through the legislature, have authorized the death of convicted murderers. Never mind the fact that twelve jurors sentenced Williams to death pursuant to this authority and several courts have upheld the conviction and the sentence. And most importantly, ignore Williams's own responsibility in earning the death sentence. Williams committed a capital crime, but it's not his fault he gets sent to the green room. As far as the author is concerned, it's the fault of the governor for declining to interfere with the normal operation of law. I wonder if Zirin calls governors killers everytime they deny a convict clemency or just when that convict enjoys celebrity status.

The power of life and death
Posted by: owleyes on Dec 13, 2005 11:31 AM   
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Arnold Schwarnzenneger's legitimacy, and therefore power, are waning. Does it come as any surprise that this embattled man's man and one-time body builder should now feel the urge to flex? In inequality based regimes such as ours, it's important for the ruling class to remind people from time to time who has ultimate power of life and death over them. The State rears up at certain times and replays this ritual of human sacrifice for one reason, which has nothing to do with the belief that the world is safer when convicted criminals are killed, and that is the symbolic value of a government agents strapping down a black man and killing him under carefully controlled circumstances.

irony
Posted by: liberalibrarian on Dec 13, 2005 11:45 AM   
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Some thoughts based on the article and comments. First, I'm against the death penalty--life in prison without parole--fine. Governors shouldn't have right to grant clemency--it makes the whole system moot, but would be irrelevent if there were no death penalty. I would like to see amnesty granted to all non-violent drug offenders and drugs legalized and regulated--that would reduce much crime motivators in the first place.
Finally, I wonder how much Arnold himself contributed to our culture of violence with his terminator, violent, vigilantism movies? Who is he to be sanctimonious? I think there is probably more of a link of violent acting out to violent movies than there is of deterrent by capital punishment (just surmising, I have no statistics...)
Tookie was doing a service from prison and trying to pay for his past. Killing him doesn't send much of a message to anyone else on death row to do the same, does it?

» RE: irony Posted by: EddieG
» RE: irony Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: irony Posted by: leeman
When Does Bush Go On Trial?
Posted by: malcolmartin on Dec 13, 2005 12:09 PM   
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Farewell Stanley “Tookie” Williams. Your life's trial is over but your people’s rage will burn for years to come against the wealthy white men who murdered you out of their perverse sense of justice. Up from poverty, deprivation and abandonment Stanley Williams you had the strength and intellect to organize your “loved ones” as the Crips. You then grew beyond gang life and reached out your powerful hands to our most vulnerable--the children. You are a great man whose life shames the pathetic weaklings that occupy the White House and other seats of power in America. George Bush's lies ended the lives of four more young American soldiers today. That makes 2,150 murders.

» RE: When Does Bush Go On Trial? Posted by: Blitzkrieg
» RE: When Does Bush Go On Trial? Posted by: malcolmartin
» RE: When Does Bush..."idoits"? Posted by: charlieparisek
» RE: When Does Bush Go On Trial? Posted by: Blitzkrieg
Doesnt matter to Tookie
Posted by: dashtotexas on Dec 13, 2005 1:10 PM   
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First off I would like to choose my side in this case, I personally hoped for clemency for Williams. I believe, while on death row Williams got his redemption. Helping the youth escape the pressure of gang violence and showing them what he probley wished he had seen in his childhood. Executing him was a mistake by the state of California. But I looked at this case the in a differnt way. I looked it through Tookie's view of it. Sure he wanted Clemency and do more good using his pasted experience. On his last day on Earth, Tookie was at peace with himself. He had no fears of dieing, simply taking it as it comes. There is no horrible feeling in the world then spending the rest of your life in prison anyways. I would rather die then spending everyday of my life in prison. But this was a special case because even behind bars, Tookie was making a difference in the community. But its over now, thanks to a body builder, turned actor, turned govenor. Man California sure know the best people to pick to run it's state.

On Killing and Death
Posted by: fatherton on Dec 13, 2005 1:10 PM   
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I think we have quaint notions of right and wrong that are taught to us as we grow up. Occasionally we'll see conflicts in this teaching in blatant cultural differences where one group does something completely unacceptable by another, like human sacrifice, or eating pork, or having more than one wife. While right and wrong may be culturally subjective, it isn't exactly arbitrary. It is usually based on something practical. Take the Ten Commandments, for instance. This list of don'ts, supposedly delivered to Moses by God, also represents a fairly comprehensive list of human inclinations. There would be no need for the rule "Thou shalt not kill" if it were not our very inclination to do so.

Sooooo, we've all got it in us. We all possess, not just the ability, but also the inclination to kill. The ability to keep that inclination "in" rather than let it loose, is one of the many measures of a man in our society. Mr. Stanley Williams didn't keep it in. So, we killed him back. At least our killing of him was a carefully measured use of our natural inclination to kill, whereas his killings were a momentary and totally selfish whim.

You can say there is no difference all you want. You might even be right. But everybody dies. Death isn't rare. It isn't even a surprise. It is part of the cycle of nature, and like it or not, we are part of that cycle. What was easy for him to take was taken from him. It was like karma or something.

how weakness wins
Posted by: swedenS on Dec 13, 2005 1:35 PM   
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This morning, I checked the news site, and felt our common air turn thick and yellowish in my throat. How could he?
There was a high resolution picture of Arnold with a firm jaw,
The same firm jaw as the Terminator.
There was no apology, he said. Without an apology there could be no forgiveness.
It wasn’t true, I wanted to say. It wasn’t. The forgiveness never comes from the apology. It only exists in us. Didn’t anyone tell him?
But I was at my desk, far away, wishing desperately that I had walked the 25 miles from San Francisco so that the soles of my feet burned and so that my throat could burn too while I tried to scream over the din of camera crews. I wanted to travel back in time to save a small part of our world. I wanted to know how things as subjective as an apology or degree of forgiveness (how many apologies will do? With or without tears? How much forgiveness? Enough to make the pain go away?) could make it legitimate for a country to kill its own citizens.
America flourishes on the belief that people can experience true, down-to-the-bone change. In fact, we make billions convincing people that they can improve themselves and their lives. We built our nation on it. We tell people who are weak that they can find strength and be redeemed.
Obviously, we are lying. We believed, in Mr. Williams’ case, that human weakness is ultimately more powerful, more unforgettable, and more convincing. It is certainly true in our own case.

rover
Posted by: Roverton on Dec 13, 2005 1:45 PM   
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Everybody needs to calm down and remember one basic rule:

If we make ANYTHING under $1000,000,000.00, we should start getting together and treating each other like family.

Everybody making OVER that amount needs to give human kind a HUGE apology for hoarding all the stuff. Then come over here and give us all a hug, ya big Right Wing Doofus! Every last single one of us. We need ya to help us out here.

A couple of storybook sized billionaires have stepped up and revealed themselves capable of true heroism in the face of tyranny, even in the midst of their peers.

Who knows, what with the way these billionaires love to compete with each other... Who can redeem themselves in the public eye first?

I guess the trick to weilding power wisely will always be "Where do we point the stick-with-the-carrot?"

The best things that Progressivism ever stood for were all based on idealism. Businessmen are smart. Once they get wind of the real deal, they will SCRAMBLE to re-calibrate their survival in this self made storm.

Smelling a changing trend is what survival is contingent upon in industry.

The change is:

"We're a little on the suspicious side about everything that has anything to do with this entire power-base these days. That's not the sort of thing that draws customers into a business. Why not try being the industry that makes heroic cuts at the top to aid people everywhere and see if you haven't just bought yourself a lifetime of brand-loyalty from a grateful planet?

Start using your noodle, ya Boneheads."

Retribution is wrong
Posted by: popsicle67 on Dec 13, 2005 2:04 PM   
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Killing Tookie Williams is the ultimate demonstration that our system is wrong. We do not deserve the right to give this power to anybody. It does not matter how much grief is suffered by society as a result of a murderers crime it is still wrong to exact retribution. Now conversely, I advocate the quick disposal of anybody who perverts human nature and forces their will on another for whatever reason. That is the only truly evil act and deserves a death penalty. Think about
the real meaning of evil before you berate me.

» RE: etribution is wrong Posted by: lillian
» RE: etribution is wrong Posted by: EncinoM
rover
Posted by: Roverton on Dec 13, 2005 2:27 PM   
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Stanley "Tookie" Williams is dead. I'm in no way qualified to judge him for a life that has only been played to me by an electrical box that lies with pretty pictures. I don't really have an inside scoop on this man's life.

He left an America full of people who did not riot. They heard him. They heard Revered King, the Mahatma and the Dali Lama. Path of peace - think of your childern.

There's a dinosaur in the tar-pit. As it flails, a race riot will not be one of the things it can hold on to. A thumb would come in handy right about now, wouldn't it? Too bad you don't believe in evolution. Please hurry up and sink, we need the extra oil.

rover
Posted by: Roverton on Dec 13, 2005 2:35 PM   
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We are a species.

A species in trouble needs to form a herd. A family needn't agree to remain a family. There are simply boundaries to how a family member may express their disagreement at the dinner table.

Probability of correct guilty verdicts = 66%?
Posted by: ScottP on Dec 13, 2005 3:52 PM   
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I've been on jury duty, and you probably have, too. I found it to be a pretty difficult task to sort out the verdict, as did the others on the one jury I was on that went all the way through.

Among my friends, I have 3 who are felons. Of the 3, one was innocent, he was framed by the Santa Monica Police (California). So from my experience a correct verdict is reached 2/3 of the time.

Anyone else care to contribute statistics?

Tookie and the US
Posted by: andy-wal on Dec 13, 2005 4:02 PM   
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I've read a lot of interesting viewpoints on this thread, including that the killing of Stan was right, the killing of Stan was wrong, and that the killing of Stan was a political tool, and that the US Government doesn't care about its people.

I find the latter, particularly surprising, especially in this day and age where naivety is supposedly reserved for the under 5's. Of course it was a political decision - he's a politician!

And of course the U.S "government" doesn't really care about its people. The point of politics is that the very qualities you need to be a politician i.e. selfishness, greed etc, should exclude you from ever taking that position in the first place.

Social conscience DOES NOT make for a healthy economic or political bedfellow. And thats the reality folks.

So leave Arnie out of this discussion. Of course he is a neutered lap-dog, but why the surprise? Do you think he would commit political suicide by saving Tookie? Dont be so naive.

Next, on to Tookie himself. I heard a lady campaigning for Tookies release outside San Quentin, saying that Tookies execution shows "that a black man cannot redeem himself in todays society for his past crimes". The flip side of this argument is that it also proves that writing some books does not get you off quadruple homicide?

I think the real argument about clemency, is that it is granted if it subsequently transpires that the person was wrongly accused.

Without seeing the evidence from the original trial its difficult to say whether it was a just trial or not. This, I think, is the real argument. If he did it, and the death penalty was imposed, it should be served. If evidence exists to show he didn't do it, then he should be granted clemency.

I guess the bottom line is (and this point has been made) that Tookie gave no option for clemency or redemption for those he (allegedly) slaughtered, so why should he get it?

The real issue around the death penalty is not whether it is a just thing. If someone killed my mum, dad or my daughter, then I would want to either see them killed, or do it myself. Revenge is natural emotion, and is perfectly in place in modern society - as long as it is just. And I think that is the real issue around Tookies execution. Did he kill those people beyond a shadow of a doubt?

tookie's just deserts
Posted by: sleeves on Dec 13, 2005 5:46 PM   
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It seems that more and more people make heroes out of the least deserving people. Im sure that Stanley changed, but only because he got caught. Death Row makes alot of men repentant. If Stanley wants to lead kids away from gangs, why not lead by example? Look where gangs got him. Haha. That could be the final chapter in his book! People glorify thugs and I dont get it. Fifty cent is a drug dealer turned rapper who says he had to do (sell drugs) what he had to do to get by. That is crap. That is a cop out. Now he has a video game that states: "Whats mine is mine...whats yours is mine...." Anyone can be tough with a gun in their hand but a real man does what is right even whan it is the harder way and least glamourous. Stanley was a petty thief who did not value human life. He got his just deserts. I think that Arnold should have met with him just so he could say "Your request for clemency has been TERMINATED" That would have been sweeeet.

LET'S MAKE 2 MOVIES
Posted by: ELZORRO on Dec 13, 2005 6:14 PM   
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Let's make 2 movies both shallow, both oversimplified and stupid.
One written and directed by Michael Moore, the other one by Mel Gibson.
The title could be "An american hero"
In Moore's movie Will Smith could play the role of "Tookie: An american hero" and Arnold Schwarzenegger as himself "The Bad Governor Arnold Schwarzznegger".

In Gibson's movie Arnold Schwarzenegger could play himself "The Heroic, the salomonic ruler, Governor Arnold Schwarzznegger" and Will Smith could play the role of "the fanatic terrorist and manipulator Tookie".

The trailers of those movies are already on FOX NEWS, and on CNN.
Enjoy them

Why Arnold killed Tookie
Posted by: watcher978 on Dec 13, 2005 7:11 PM   
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He had to "make his bones", just like W did in Texas. The people who pull the strings need to see that their puppets "have what it takes"... namely a seared conscience. Speaking of which have you seen the photo of Arnold with Warren Buffett + Rothschild?

» RE: Why Arnold killed Tookie Posted by: EncinoM
I get so tired of the race card being played
Posted by: lady42 on Dec 13, 2005 7:50 PM   
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It doesn't matter if you are white ,black,latino etc. If you take a human life you deserve what ever punishment is giving.If you don't want to go to prison the rest of your life or face the death pently don't do the crime for such judgements.
You bring it on yourslef when you choose to take someone elses life in your hands.But everytime one doesn't get there way - they blame it on the color of their skin.The justice system works for everyone the same way - everyone of every color or orgin has been put to death- Come on people! We say racism needs to stop - but every time you turn around someone wants to use it to their benefit.
When that stops - and people just except they got what they deserved - then racism will stop!

Judge not
Posted by: motown on Dec 13, 2005 9:59 PM   
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Wow! After reading some of these statement posted it become crystal clear the direction this country treading. No one can see the obvious. Stan William was judge and found guilty by a judicial procedure that got human flaw. The ordeal that occurs for the last 25 years were a pre-trial in this world, but his trial in the next world will be judge by the greatest Judge who has no imperfection or error. Stan will be held accountable for his life and so will we all. Everybody entitle to their opinion but remember the Creator knows what lurk in all men hearts. To God we all will return for retributions be it hell fire or paradise. On that day, day of resurrection a great many people in this forum will find themselves in greater peril than some of the convicted death inmates whose lives have been terminated.

» RE: Judge not Posted by: ScottP
» RE: Judge not Posted by: Gisele
It's not about Tookie, stupid!
Posted by: mandiwrite on Dec 14, 2005 12:46 AM   
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Heavens, this is not an issue about one person, guilty, bad, redeemed or no. It's about whether you're a civilised nation. Civilised nations don't use executions to wreak revenge. They do not sink to the level of murderers. And they know that judicial killings do not curb crime. Crime is in your hands as a community. How unequal is the USA? What kind of social networks do you have? Who are your icons? (One of them is in charge in California, a man who rose to famew as The Terminator, for pete's sakes!) Take a good look at nations with low crime levels, and ask yourself: do they revere money, bling, success, things, does everyone have a gun... oh, I could go on. It's not about this man, it's about what judicial killing means about you as a society!

Final Hours...
Posted by: ablojimene on Dec 14, 2005 3:02 AM   
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It is often said that in our final hour, our final minutes and ultimately our final moments of life, we are then judged by a higher being. Named justly so, because no being on this earth has the power nor the right to give or take life. Arnold Schwarzenegger seemlessly shifted from casual day out to callous murder without so much as a second thought, other than his Republican following and their support or lack there of if he granted Tookie Williams clemency.

As civil human beings, or as we claim to be in todays society,
“We know the death penalty doesn’t resolve anything,” “Even a criminal is worthy of respect because he is a human being, The death penalty is a negation of human dignity.”

Capital punishment is illegal throughout the European Union, and many Europeans consider state-sponsored executions to be barbaric. And they'd be correct in believing so. If Tookie Williams is innocent, then he need not apologize nor show remorse for crimes he didn't commit. If he is guilty, then his debt to society has been paid, and he his sins paid for with the blood of Christ. God should and will judge him. Not Arnold.

Leaders of Austria’s pacifist Green party went as far as to call for Schwarzenegger to be stripped of his Austrian citizenship — a demand that was rejected by Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel, but was also said that, “Whoever, out of political calculation, allows the death of a person rehabilitated in such an exemplary manner has rejected the basic values of Austrian (and American) society,” said Peter Pilz, a Greens leader.

In Graz, Schwarzenegger’s hometown, local Greens said they would file a petition to remove the governor’s name from the southern city’s Arnold Schwarzenegger Stadium. A Christian political group went even further, suggesting it be renamed the “Stanley Tookie Williams Stadium.”

“Mr. Williams had converted and, unlike Mr. Schwarzenegger, opposed every form of violence,” said Richard Schadauer, the chairman of the Association of Christianity and Social Democracy.

It is truly a loss of someone who tried to justify and correct the mistakes he made in life and wasn't given the ample opportunity to show his sincerity.
R.I.P. Tookie Williams

» Dura Lex Sed Lex Posted by: ELZORRO
Moot Point
Posted by: fleeting_and_furious on Dec 14, 2005 3:31 AM   
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Well of course it’s not Schwarzenegger fault that Williams was executed. Arnold is just stuck within the confines of his own subjective standpoint. As are the rest of us. And he’s got a few political constraints. He needs to hold law and order with high regard. When the system places judgment it is within the systems judgment that the law is upheld lest we descent into chaos. Right? I mean Tookie was a big scary black man who basically gave the system the finger. He was a dangerous thug and a gang banger. He co-founded the Crips for God sakes. Now did he kill the people he was on trial for?

Well that’s a moot point because Mr. Williams was a big scary black man who co-founded Crips. Those grieving families needed somebody to fry and who better a candidate then Stan Williams. He was the most qualified. It is within this modus operandi that the justice system will function at times.

So while enjoying his kingly post as governor why should Schwarzenegger concern himself with the fact that the justice system may be comprised of people who have biases and prejudice as all humans do? If all the subconscious racist and biased decisions made by the police, the lawyers, the jurors and all the people along the way silently collaborated to the culmination of Stan Williams incarceration should Arnold care?

Maybe some of the lawyers in the case built their careers on the fact that Williams will be put to death. Unfortunately it is things like this that have weight for Arnold, not redemption.

Another chance coming up-
Posted by: Wolfe55 on Dec 14, 2005 8:23 AM   
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Mississippi is set to execute 77 year-old John B. Nixon Sr. tonight for a contract murder in which a man paid Nixon to kill his wife. Even though he is a white man who killed a white woman for money and killed her execution-style he is still a lamb of God and we should expect the same consideration for him by the anti-death penalty contingent that "Tookie" received. As for me, I'll just consider it one less piece of human scum for the taxpayer to support.

Stan "D" for Williams or Justice
Posted by: jhart2070 on Dec 14, 2005 8:28 AM   
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many times we ask ourselves when it comes to the death row question, how does one feel? Well I feel this. If without a doubt the individual is guilty, then fine, but why wait 10 plus year to do this? From what it appears this man has made a change in his life, for which the system was once named(The Department of Corrections) meaning you are here to correct your mistakes, not to continue to be the same person if returned to society. Some people have returned from prisons and have become more of a model citizen that anyone around them, and that is many because not all persons in that place is evil, cynical, or beyond our worst nightmare. Not many thought that way of Martha Stewart and she was a criminal and incarcerated. Kiddie jail or otherwise. Some of this is about race and some of this is about stupidity. Most blacks bring in the factor of race in most cases, is for the reason. A black man can have a pound od marjuana on him and get 20years in the pen. A white man going to that same white judge can get caught with a truck full of cocaine (trafficing) and serve 12-18 months in the federal prison. What's the difference? One could be for personal use not distrubution, the other is obviously for the intent to distrubute. Can you tell me why that is so? Not many can explain it, but it does happen and more often that imagined.

Now when it comes to killing someone, the terms are relatively close, but in most cases one gets the death sentence while the other gets life without parole. But the death sentence can last forever so what does that matter. If you kill my mother and nothing is done for the next 25 years who's to say that I want you to now die, what difference does that make.

America
Posted by: karyse on Dec 14, 2005 9:47 AM   
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And so this is what America has become -- a nation of people who support terrorizing its own citizens, and citizens abroad; a nation of people without compassion; a nation of people without empathy; a nation of people who are so bereft of argumentation skills that they routinely resort to screaming at each other; a nation of people who cannot agree even upon "thou shalt not kill." This rule does not say, "thou shalt not kill UNLESS blah, blah, blah," does it?

We are the only "democracy" in the world that still executes its citizens and we believe ourselves to be civilized. Well, we ought not SAY we are civilized unless we actually are. And the only way to become civilized is for open and rational argumentation on contentious issues. Without education (and I don't mean that sorry excuse for education we currently have whose purpose is to find a job) we cannot, nor ever will, be civil to each other, and to other points of view.

My only solace is that, regardless, the fiddler plays while Rome is burning and I'll be here to dance until dancing is outlawed.

Here's somthing overlooked by Tookie's supporters...
Posted by: thedude on Dec 14, 2005 10:04 AM   
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And that is the feelings and rights of the victims and their families. So many of these anti-death penalty people conveniently forget that there are victims involved in these crimes and they have a right to justice being served. They seem to believe that a dead victim has less value than a dead criminal. Consider the arguments against the execution of Tookie Williams. His supporters say he could have done more good alive serving a life sentence in prison instead of dead. But what about the people he murdered? Couldn't they have done more good alive than dead? Didn't their lives have value?

Hello
Posted by: nanet124 on Dec 14, 2005 10:59 AM   
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What man on earth all of a sudden became GOD to take away anyone's life and im not just speaking for Stanley "Tookie" Williams. Im speaking for every single person that was killed by execution. This world could never forgive people for what they ever did. I know that's not how the stupid system works but that suppost to be God decision to take life. I think the man above was really upset on the decision that was made on killing that man. All people really know is that he is the founder of the crips they don't really know if he actually killed those people. He did say he was innocent and he stuck with that until his planned death. If that was the case he could have easily said before he knew he was going to die " Im sorry for what I done in the past". They would have still put him to death but instead this man said nothing before he died and I truly believe if he did kill those people he would have confessed since he was a changed man that was trying to do good things in life since he made mistakes in the past. No one is God every one makes mistakes. Im not saying people have to forget about things but some need to learn to forgive because that's what God would want. And he will judge them when he think its time.Now everyone can thank Mr.Arnald for Mr. Stanley Williams for going to heaven. I thank him.

» RE: Hello Posted by: lady42
» RE: Hello Posted by: Blitzkrieg
So because he never confessed that makes him innocent?
Posted by: thedude on Dec 14, 2005 12:23 PM   
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Well gosh, I guess most of the Nazis executed at Nuremberg were innocent as well. I mean most of them never confessed and maintained their innocence!
Or how about all the klansmen who have been convicted and imprisoned and/or executed? How many of them have maintained that they were innocent? I guess we should just let them all out, huh?

EYE FOR AN EYE
Posted by: PRETTYEYES26 on Dec 14, 2005 5:42 PM   
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A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY TOOKIE IS A MURDERER AND HE DESERVES TO DIE BUT LET ME ASK YOU COULD YOU BE THE
EXECUTIONER

» Hell yes! Posted by: thedude
» RE: YE FOR AN EYE Posted by: lady42
» RE: YE FOR AN EYE Posted by: Blitzkrieg
Schwarzenegger Violated Tookie's 5 Amendment Rights
Posted by: hoscot on Dec 14, 2005 8:13 PM   
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Tookie always protested his innocence. Whether this was true or not is immaterial. To demand that Tookie apologize for his "crimes" as a condition for reprieve is tantamount to forcing him to testify against himself and is patently unconstitutional. Clearly, Schwarzenegger has little understanding of what our bill of rights is all about.

We are all going to die
Posted by: lbrader on Dec 14, 2005 9:27 PM   
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Pondering this fellows life Williams'. Me I'm no one but have observe this person changed what he touched for bad and good.

Definitely blood was on his hand - if not for this crime then another. But he did learn - reading what he produced showed movement in what I consider to be a healthy direction of life. And life it's so very fleeting.

Now the Gov has blood on his hands - I wonder if has learned as much as Williams about the cost of blood? Will the Gov teach us wisdom and the cost of blood?

As noted at the title we all will die and through life we all make mistakes. So what if we kill all those that learn the hardest lesson and can find a postive path and teach it.

Some would hate this notion - but it's sad they are so willing to do put blood on there hands yet preach peace on the weekend. So the Gov now has Williams blood on his hands and what will he do.

Just my thougths.

Redemptive ironies
Posted by: libertad on Dec 14, 2005 11:04 PM   
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Discussion is bound to be strange when people try to explain how an irrational social practice is to be most fairly and consistently carried out. The death penalty is a ridiculous throwback to pre-democratic notions of law and justice better suited to a nation of bible-thumping numbskulls than to any country founded on rational notions of justice. The difficultly is how to change an irrational, violent, institutional practice--capital punishment--in a society whose political heritage is secular and rational, but whose constituency is largely religious and emotional in its basis of support for this institution. Not surprisingly, a common tactic is to mount a religious and emotional campaign against the institution. Sometimes it works. The problem, tho, is that it does not unseat the problem at its root. Rather, the changes in sentiment that it affects depend on the evocative portrayal of particular surface issues. The advocate paints a picture of the particular situation, then portrays it as an alegory for why the instituation is wrong. But the picture is easily shaken and reversed, and then all the effort goes into a fight over who has the correct picture, and who wins THAT fight determines whose opinion of the contested institution holds sway. The execution of Tookie Williams and all the theater surrounding it exemplify the weaknesses of this strategy.

I felt quite sad when I listen to the accounts of Tookie William’s final hour. Also insensed by Schwarzenegger's idiotic remarks (although also left wishing I could read them all in context--and annoyed that journalists and comentators will quote him but not provide a link to the entire brief, which I couldn't even find thru a google search). Also shamed that I live in a country that does this. And I'm left trying to understand why.

I'm starting by trying to understand why people wanted Tookie Williams to die... because I can understand that. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. I understand both why people appreciated Williams, and why others (or even the same people) were left wishing more from his soul.

[continued]

» RE: edemptive ironies Posted by: libertad
» RE: edemptive ironies Posted by: libertad
» RE: edemptive ironies Posted by: libertad
business
Posted by: melanderson on Dec 15, 2005 10:59 AM   
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I was just going to let everyone know that I just made these great business cards so I have all of my contact info on them. I can pass them out to professors, potential jobs, friends, co-workers and to classmates for study groups or whatever. I designed them myself and it's very handy. If your interested.
http://www.vistaprint.com/vp/gateway.aspx?S=4848761673

life for a life
Posted by: PRETTYEYES26 on Dec 15, 2005 2:19 PM   
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i believe a person can change regardless of what they did in the past rather perfect or horrible but this society condems you forever im glad god isn't one of us done here we would be up a creek we could never be forgiven for anything

Dear "Tookie" Readers with dilemma's of self and being
Posted by: Fuquan on Dec 15, 2005 8:25 PM   
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It bewilders me, and exceeds my mental capabilities to read your thoughts or even think people of your "composition" exist on this planet (though in truth it does not surprise me). Personally, I have always wondered what makes a person so mentally and emotionally inadequate. Here you are "spitting" intense hate on a man such as Stanley "Tookie" Williams who in all truth is no worse than the majority of men or women around the globe, be them Civilians, Military personnel, Politicians, News Casters or even Photographers who exploit and encourage the conditions for which they seek to capture that so-called "perfect" photo.

My question to you is what in truth is the difference between Stanley "Tookie" Williams and the basic man or woman who joins any armed forces and "Kills" other humans? is it because these have a man-made "legal" seal of approval on their "killing"? Why are they "allowed" to kill, RAPE, barbeque humans or plunder? Can your meagre mind explain that to me? Why do you herald them as "hero's"? Now take this on a broader level, what about the man who "endorses" killings or murders for others to physically carry out in the name of the state or the country? Tell me how does your "small" mind explain these? These are the real questions that humans should be pre-occupied with, but we are all caught up in a "rat-race" for survival on a planet we are born (without choice) into making these sort of 'questions' elusive to our mental processing capabilities.

Without self-amputating yourself into 'belief' of man-defined "right" or "wrong" guided by pre-suppositions of self as the righteous one. It suffices for me to state that these issues are deeper than our culturally developed thought patterns can commit to or justify and thus, one should avoid playing "GOD" simply because one suffers from emotional and mental degenerate inadequacies of self.

I pity Mr Stanley "Tookie" Williams, BUT, I PITY the likes of yourself and ARNOLD ZWART-I-NIGGER more as if there truly is a Creator that has the concept of 'Justice' as one of its virtues, I wonder what shall happen to you and Arnold. Meanwhile, ending on a humorous note, Arnold had the 'camera's and lights', BUT his final decision was one borne out of JEALOUSY as Stanley "Tookie" Williams had the better defined glossy BODY...Tookie was the REAL deal and all Kids remember that and strive to be like the POSITIVE things in Stanley....Pea ce!!

Death penalty no acid test of progressivism
Posted by: yellow on Dec 16, 2005 12:38 AM   
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I do not believe that whether or not one supports the death penalty is any test of one's progressivism. Many hate the idea of remorseless killers being set free. There is peacetime sociopathology in US society like nowhere else. Its disgusting and its enough!! I do not like the death penalty but I hate senseless homicide even more. Those who think that the homicide rate is just due to social injustice are idiots beyond belief. Killing innocent people, including children, is not justice it is criminal and sick. Criminals are not politically liberating because the epitomise the most brutal and reactionary form of egotism. These people must go!! The death penalty for most of them is just.

who the hell do you think you are
Posted by: SBK on Dec 17, 2005 3:11 AM   
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Of the 304 comments in here I have yet to see ONE that acknowledges the life of a young man living in a city and the conditions under which he man or may not survive. Regardless of what Tookie started at 18, what he worked for at 40 counts waaaay more. Do you privileged people have any other solution for the mass murder and imprisonment of how many boys across the world? Debate the death penalty another day. We had the chance to get somewhere on THE biggest problem plaguing our young men ACROSS the world, and we killed him. I can't believe I live among people who can't see the greater good of redemption and learning. How many lives could he have saved, how much work could have been done? Do you know what it is like to be a young boy faced with a hyper militarized economic disaster as a foundation? Gimmee a break! Step out of your front rooms and into the warzone and tell me this prophet from the inside was of no use. I will gladly pay taxes to keep alive an authentic voice of peace that has risen from so much violence. We have lost an incredible opportunity.