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Howard Dean: Just Plain Right

By Jan Frel, AlterNet. Posted December 7, 2005.


The notion that we can't win is now a permanent part of the debate on Iraq thanks to Howard Dean's recent remarks.

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"The idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is just plain wrong," Democratic Party Chair Howard Dean told a San Antonio radio show on Monday. That remark flew through the news.

Asked about Dean's comments, President Bush responded to the press, "Oh, there's pessimists, you know, and politicians who try to score points. Our troops need to know that the American people stand with them, and we have a strategy for victory." And House Speaker Dennis Hastert scolded that Dean was engaging in, "negative and harmful political rhetoric."

But the "can't win" phrase is out of the box. It's much like Rep. John Murtha's call for the United States to "immediately redeploy" -- there's no going back. We can't win is now a permanent part of the debate on Iraq.

Another significant but totally overlooked voice in the discussion on Iraq -- and one who can't be accused of "political rhetoric" -- is that of Major Isaiah Wilson, who got the assignment of serving as the U.S. Army's official historian of Gulf War II, Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF). According to Wilson's account, the United States effectively lost its dominance shortly after it invaded Iraq; another way of saying can't win.

Wilson concluded in a presentation obtained by the Washington Post in December 2004, that three months after the invasion of Iraq, "U.S. forces slowly lost the momentum and the initiative ... gained over an off-balanced enemy. The United States, its Army and its coalition of the willing have been playing catch-up ever since."

Wilson added that the people responsible for planning the war suffered from "stunted learning and a reluctance to adapt."

Wilson, who is a professor at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and 2005 regional finalist White House Fellow, also concluded that the United States was "perhaps in peril of losing the 'war,' even after supposedly winning it."

The Bush administration never responded to Maj. Wilson's remarks.

More recently, Maj. Wilson gave a presentation this November to a conference [PDF] on "U.S. Military Operations in Iraq: Planning, Combat, and Occupation." The conference notes summarized Wilson's argument that "in OIF the military objective and the political objective did not coincide. This created significant tensions between plans and realities and contributed to some of the post-Phase III difficulties that have emerged."

The "post-Phase III difficulties" are, in a nutshell, the massive resistance to the U.S. occupation in Iraq by the local populace, also known as the insurgency. In the neutral language of strategyspeak, that's as a universal statement as you're going to get declaring that we can't win the war. Maj. Wilson could not be reached for comment.

In his San Antonio radio interview, Howard Dean sketched the outline of his suggested alternative:

"Bring the 80,000 National Guard and Reserve troops home immediately. They don't belong in a conflict like this anyway. We ought to have a redeployment to Afghanistan of 20,000 troops, we don't have enough troops to do the job there and it's a place where we are welcome. And we need a force in the Middle East, not in Iraq but in a friendly neighboring country to fight [terrorist leader Musab] Zarqawi, who came to Iraq after this invasion."

Asked to clarify which neighboring country Howard Dean might be referring to, his spokeswoman Karen Finney said that Dean was speaking in general terms about a plan he favors from the Center for American Progress. Authored by Lawrence Korb and Brian Katulis, the plan is titled "Strategic Redeployment."

That report suggests a global redeployment of 80,000 troops in 2006 composed of all Guard and Reserve troops (roughly 46,000) back to the United States, 14,000 soldiers to Kuwait, and 18,000 to Afghanistan. One thousand would be sent to Southeast Asia and another 1,000 troops to the Horn of Africa (including Somalia and Sudan) to support "counterterrorist operations" there.

It's only a matter of time before Bush's "strategy for victory" evolves into a "strategy for withdrawal."

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Jan Frel is an AlterNet staff writer. He worked on Howard Dean's presidential campaign.

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Go for it Howard!
Posted by: ShaSpirit on Dec 7, 2005 12:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think everyone knows we cannot win this war, except Bush and his die hard whackos. I am sure the rest of the administration know that we cannot win. The only reason we are still there is for the oil fields. We will have to impeach Bush and Cheney before they will give up the oil fields.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Go for it Howard! Posted by: SALLY EVANS
» RE: Go for it Howard! Posted by: trace
» RE: Go for it Howard! Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Go for it Howard! Posted by: Lets all eat cake
» RE: Go for it Howard! Posted by: bar5608
» montana freeman Posted by: trace
When the battle turns cold
Posted by: Captainmagic on Dec 7, 2005 12:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just how is it that the USA will appologise to the rest of the free WORLD, and Iraq for its irresponsiblity in regard to the loss of human life in IRAQ. We all knew you had lost. The cause was wrong and now you see why many nations hold a dissregard for Americans. "Quick show me your gun". It's your flag that fly's over that Soveriegn nation. What possesses a nation to kill like you do.?....one thing you can count on, and that is your army is clumsy....just fire and forget...so many innocents dead....and its all your fault...you kill kill kill. Your leaders giggle as free thinking educated people die at your hands..they are your leaders who represent YOU...just bloody ratbags..one and all they are.... Go get your Flag back...and get the hell out from where you don't belong..sorry I'm just having a moment...!
.

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» RE: When the battle turns cold Posted by: ShaSpirit
» RE: captain Oh my captain! Posted by: memememem
» RE: captain Oh my captain! Posted by: katinmn
» RE: captain Oh my captain! Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: captain Oh my captain! Posted by: memememem
» RE: captain Oh my captain! Posted by: fixitt
» RE: caat the end of the day Posted by: memememem
» RE: captain Oh my captain! Posted by: neuromancer
» RE: When the battle turns cold Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: When the battle turns cold Posted by: neuromancer
Of Course
Posted by: memememem on Dec 7, 2005 2:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The war was lost from the Beginning.
This was obvious for the rest of the world and probably the pundits at the Pentagon.
The war was always about stopping Iraq from Trading in Euros.
It never was about Oil.
This was orchestrated to stop Saudi, Syria, Lybia and Gulf Stes from jumping on the bandwaggon.
Iran is going ahead ... and Chavez is travelling to Iran.
The French, Germans, Italians, Spanish are Mum. Why????
Les jeux sont faits!
Please get info on what would happen if New York and London were not the Trading Centers for oil any more. Find out what would happen if the US$ stopped being the Trading Currency.
You'll be surprised.
Fun site to visit. Paid for by CIA
www.fuckfrance.com
You will be amazed!

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» RE: Of Course.... keeping afloat Posted by: Captainmagic
» RE: But how Posted by: memememem
» RE: Of Course Posted by: citizenjoe
Whatever
Posted by: AlanSmithee on Dec 7, 2005 5:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dean's opinions change with the polls. Who cares what he says anymore.

“The president has created an enormous security problem for the United States where none existed before. But I hope the president is incredibly successful with his policy now that he's there. Now that we're there, we're there and we can't get out.”(~Howard Dean, Minneapolis speech, 2005)

"We need more troops. They're going to be foreign troops [in Iraq], not more American troops, as they should have been in the first place. Ours need to come home." (~Howard Dean, New York primary debate, 2004)

"I support the president's War on Terrorism. I believe that we need a very substantial increase in troops. They don't all have to be American troops. My guess would be that we would need at least 30,000 and 40,000 additional troops." (~Howard Dean, Meet The Press, July 2003)

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» RE: Whatever Posted by: Sandra
» RE: Whatever Posted by: katinmn
» RE: Whatever Posted by: xenacat
» RE: Whatever Posted by: darby1936
» RE: Whatever Posted by: doorma
yes.
Posted by: tcx2 on Dec 7, 2005 6:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's only a matter of time before Bush's "strategy for victory" evolves into a "strategy for withdrawal."

Prepare the landing! Ready the helicopters! It's time for Saigon II.

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The Hidden agenda
Posted by: billyboy43 on Dec 7, 2005 6:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The great J. Piermont Morgan is quoted as saying. 'There are two reasons any man does anything, and the first one is the one he tells you.' A lesson in human nature which can be applied to an individual or a group (Bush administration).
The 'reason they tell you' is designed to look respectful, honest, reasonable, and to gain your support. The reason they won't tell you (the real reason) is ugly, inhumane, indecent, and would be rejected by others.
On Iraq - The reason(s) they tell us, it's for such a noble cause, protecting you, war-against-terror, building democracy, and all the other political lies that sound so reasonable.
The reason they will not tell us - it is the hiddan agenda of The Project for a New American Century - establish American bases in all parts of the world, especially where there is the precious resource of OIL, even weaponize space to establish 'Pax Americana' - control of the world's resources and economy, and then eliminate the undesirables.
The PNAC'ers (the entire Bush administration) have their golden opportunity to achieve just that, and they will not quit until they are out of office. They will not go quietly. IMPEACHMENT and PROSECUTION or wait 3 years till the next rigged election.

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» RE: The Hidden agenda Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: The Hidden agenda Posted by: debbieaustin
» RE: The Hidden agenda Posted by: neuromancer
Project for the New American Century
Posted by: nosylae on Dec 7, 2005 6:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I having been telling people about the PNAC for years!! Anyone who would listen to me!! People think that I'm a conspiracy theorist when I tell them that nearly everyone in the Bush Admin. (first and second terms) was a founding member.

Go to their website and see for yourself: http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Some years before 9/11 they had a mission statement that essentially said that they wanted to invade a middle eastern country with plans of creating a permanent military base which would serve to spread "American Democracy" throughout the region. But the only way that would happen would be if some catasrophic disaster happened. After you read that on their website, you tell me they didn't "allow" 9/11 to happen. We were going to war in Iraq with or without 9/11- they just lucked out when it actually happened.

We will never get out of Iraq. It's what they want.

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» RE: Project for the New American Century Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Fuck Tradition Posted by: memememem
» RE: Project for the New American Century Posted by: AnotherLiberalInTheOzarks
suenos88
Posted by: suenos on Dec 7, 2005 7:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, and if we could win? Then our illegal, immoral war would be OK?
Keep your eye on the ball, people: Dean was once an advocate of "send more troops"-check out his speeches.
His "we can't win" comment is just another immorality.

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» RE: suenos88 Posted by: jwg
» RE: suenos88 Posted by: darby1936
» RE: suenos88 Posted by: IndyElliott
» RE: suenos88 Posted by: IndyElliott
» RE: suenos88 Posted by: LyleBDamm
We WON this war.
Posted by: lc on Dec 7, 2005 7:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush misspoke when he declared “Mission Accomplished.” We won this war in weeks but the mission was redefined from WMD to regime change. So now we are fighting war number two which is a not a war but an occupation. Eighty percent of Iraqis want the US out of Iraq. We are now no different than the Redcoats were when we took up individual arms against them. Our Paul Revere could be compared to Zarqahwi the terrorist leader, or freedom fighter, leading the charge against the occupiers.
Iraqis thank us for getting rid of Saddam and now they want us out of their country. We won’t leave until Iraq looks like Afghanistan, broken into ruble. Then, like the Russians in Afghanistan, we can proclaim our installed government a success and depart in defeat disguised as victory.
Ron@LinkersMarketing.com

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» Broke just like Russia Posted by: harpy
» RE: Broke just like Russia Posted by: IndyElliott
» RE: Broke just like Russia Posted by: Basenjis
» You win! Posted by: DFrost
» RE: You win! NOT!!! Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Here's the Theocracy argument! Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Here's the Theocracy argument! Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: We WON this war. Posted by: neuromancer
agitator church and state
Posted by: eileenflmng on Dec 7, 2005 8:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Another significant but totally overlooked voice in the discussion on Iraq"

IS THE CPT's: Christian PEACEMAKER TEAMS -

I have yet to hear a word from ANY USA MEDIA regarding the following CPT statement about the four hostages kidnapped in Iraq and I AM RIGHTEOUSLY ANGRY! how about you?

"We are angry because what has happened to our teammates is the result of the actions of the U.S. and U.K. government due to the illegal attack on Iraq and the continuing occupation and oppression of its people. Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT) has worked for the rights of Iraqi prisoners who have been illegally detained and abused by the U.S. government. We were the first people to publicly denounce the torture of Iraqi people at the hands of U.S. forces, long before the western media admitted what was happening at Abu Ghraib. We are some of the few internationals left in Iraq who are telling the truth about what is happening to the Iraqi people We hope that we can continue to do this work and we pray for the speedy release of our beloved teammates."


Sign the petition to Free the Christians at http://freethecpt.org

http://www.wearewideawake.org

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skysage
Posted by: Skysage on Dec 7, 2005 8:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks to Howard for saying it like it is. It is totally delusional to think we can win this war in Iraq and I think in the end Americans will have to face this. It is sickening to see how the democrats back off from taking this stand for fear of political loss. I am so tired of their wimpy and non-committal ways for fear of backlash. Thanks to Pelosi and Murtha for showing some brains and spine. This is the real spirit of democracy. It is pathetic to see how so few democrats understand this.

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» RE: skysage Posted by: liberalibrarian
A free Dean is the best Dean
Posted by: Urstrly on Dec 7, 2005 8:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Much as the media want to paint Dean crazy, he's been right all along about this war. While I like his idea of revitalizing the party even in the red states, I worry that he's a hostage at the DNC, that he hasn't been about to get out his message because now he speaks for the party. And a lot of Dems just can't get it together to oppose this miserable war. On the other hand, if Dean leaves the DNC, then it's all-Hillary, all-the-time. My guess is that all the money Dean is accused of not raising is flowing into her campaign chest.

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» RE: A free Dean is the best Dean Posted by: GreenLibbie
Still Being Duped
Posted by: alert on Dec 7, 2005 9:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The best intentioned commentators on US involvement in Iraq are still using the deceptive language invented by the Deceivers.
It is NOT a "war" - it is an invasion followed by an occupation, which will be followed by a corporate take-over. There is no "war" to "win" -- the Deceivers have already "won", because they are now all stupendiously rich. Their "mission" IS accomplished, and they really don't care about US policy, US security, or anything else US, because they probably won't be living in the US anyway.
The US will never really "get out" of Iraq, nor anywhere else we have agents in the Middle East, because the Deceivers need to be able to provoke more "terrorism" in the future -- there will never ever be "stability" because there will never ever be "Enough Profit". Anyone who has ever read ANYTHING by Noam Chomsky understands that the very last thing the Deceivers controlling the US want to see is a democratically independent state -- anywhere in the world. Iraq is no exception.

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Too bad you weren't around in Kitty Hawk
Posted by: DFrost on Dec 7, 2005 9:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You might have convinced the Wright brothers that we really can't fly.

The only thing that can prevent us from winning in Iraq is the far-too-large number of people here whose hatred of Bush has so far transcended the rational that they would rather see their country humiliated than have him be right.

Saddam is out and facing trial; Iraqis turned out in enormous quantities for their first free election; they have started a free press; their economy has grown by leaps and bounds since Saddam was deposed; they are adopting a constitution; and, finally, the terrorists are directing almost all of their desparate attacks against Iraqi people.

We are winning, and so are the Iraqi people. I only regret that this fact is so bitter to you.

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» RE: SAllen, what we have here is a Sesbwata! Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: SAllen, what we have here is a Sesbwata! Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» It's a two-edged analogy ... Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» RE: And we are winning WHAT??!!!!!!! Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: How about this, MARK? Posted by: insanityprevails
» Good one! Posted by: DFrost
» RE: How about this, MARK? Posted by: neuromancer
» RE: And we are winning WHAT??!!!!!!! Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Too bad you weren't around in Kitty Hawk Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» Indeed! Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Indeed! Posted by: neuromancer
» RE: Too bad you weren't around in Kitty Hawk Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
The Philippines, Pearl Harbor and Iraq
Posted by: redmaple on Dec 7, 2005 10:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is seemly that Mr. Dean's comments are causing a stir today. Sixty-four years ago, it was said that this day would "live in infamy" because a powerful nation, desperate for oil, unleashed an unprovoked assault on a sovereign nation. True, Japan did not invade or occupy the United States, but there are some interesting parallels.

I leave it to Americans to come to their senses about their republic, the harm visits upon foreign nations, and the self-destruction of its own proud traditions of liberty. It would, moreover, be presumptous to lecture them on the meaning of their vital experiment in democracy. Still, it might not be amiss to recall some of their own citizens' words.

President John Quincy Adams once famously declared:

The United States goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is a well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. If the United States took up all foreign affairs, it would be tangled in all the wars of interest and intrigue, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. She might become the dictatress of the world. She would no longer be the ruler of her own soul.

During the invasion of the Philippines, Mark Twain redesigned the American flag. He retained the basic template, but used red and black instead of red and white stripes, put white skulls in the place of stars, band backed them with black rather than blue. Should Hillary Rodham Clinton get her way, this would land him in jail.

He also re-wrote "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" as follows:

Mine eyes have seen the orgy of the launching of the Sword;
He is searching out the hoardings where the stranger's wealth is stored;
He hath loosed his fateful lightnings, and with woe and death has scored;
His lust is marching on.

I have seen him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps,
They have builded him an alter in the Eastern dews and damps;
I have read his doomful message by the dim and flaring lamps -
His night is marching on.

I have read his bandit gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my pretentions, so with you my wrath shall deal;
Let the faithless son of Freedom crush the patriot with his heel;
Lo, Greed is marching on!


It goes on ...

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doorma
Posted by: doorma on Dec 7, 2005 11:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Start the chant and don't stop. We Can't Win! We Can't Win! We Can't Win! Tag the Rethugs with the "loser" brand, then it's "They Can't Win!"

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Dean and his position
Posted by: Brucewxx on Dec 7, 2005 12:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dean's anti-war position made him the only candidate in the 2004 election who was anti-war, so the history proved him right. Don't be fooled by that "we were all wrong" statement made by Mr. Kay, as a lot of the people worldwide, although much less within US, were right on the possible outcome of the war BEFORE the war started.

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» RE: Dean and his position Posted by: crusty
A BIG question on Saddam's trial
Posted by: Brucewxx on Dec 7, 2005 12:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is Saddam tried on the killing in a village after someone tried to assassin him, as he supposedly committed many other crimes FAR FAR worse than this? Like using Chemical weapons against his own people which killed far more people and starting the war against Iran in which millions of people died or injured.
He could actually justify this crime by using Fuluja example as US went in there and killled thousands after only four contractors were killed there.
Is it because that US actually supported Irag in its war against Iran? Is it because US gave Saddam those chemical weapons used in those crimes? If a death penalty is handed down after this trial, does this mean he won't be tried for other crimes for the role of US would never be revealed during other trials?

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» Small point of order... Posted by: GreenLibbie
» RE: Small point of order... Posted by: neuromancer
paganbaby
Posted by: paganbaby on Dec 7, 2005 12:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like to suggest that we start examining the situation concerning 21st century power and war.
A guerrila/civil war cannot be won by an external power. The external power can't distinguish between friend and foe and cannot wipe out the entire population in order to win the war. In an effort to win the guerilla/civil war the external power becomes the focal point and, as a consequence, will actually generate more recruits for the opposing side. This type of war can go on for decades or centuries. Even if external power wins(militarily), the seeds for the conflict remain and within a few months or years it will flare up again. So the war will have to be fought again. How many times will the external power be willing to repeat this cycle? Until it goes bankrupt in the effort? Until the people get fed up with the human costs?
Bottom line: a guerilla/civil war cannot be won by an external power.

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» RE: paganbaby Posted by: IndyElliott
» RE: paganbaby Posted by: paganbaby
» RE: paganbaby Posted by: Sgtmackenzie
» RE: paganbaby Posted by: neuromancer
Minds set in concrete
Posted by: Maryanne on Dec 7, 2005 1:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that many who write their opinions here are never satisfied.

If one's mind is set in concrete (like our noble leader) that's not a good thing, because it doesn't respond to new information or new challanges.

If, on the other hand, one changes one's mind, that's not good either.

What's the matter with changing your mind? Although many Americans initially were against going into Iraq, so many more have come to the conclusion that this was a bad thing to do., and now want us to get out. Should they have stayed with their original position? Should Mr. Dean? Although I remember that he was initially against this war.

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» RE: Minds set in concrete Posted by: Brucewxx
AndieGee
Posted by: Andie927 on Dec 7, 2005 1:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all of you, (and me) who REALLY want to end the war, Repeat after me;"End the No-Bid Contracts"! That's were the money's at, Bush's and Cheney's buddies getting rich off our tax dollars, while our sons and daughters die so they can do it! Isn't that what being Chicken-Hawks is all about? Start a war, let other people fight while you and yours get rich off it!

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» RE: AndieGee Posted by: Lincoln fan
It doesn't take money to tell the truth and make it RELEVANT
Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 7, 2005 2:48 PM   
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and Howard Dean once again proves it.

P.S.: It's possible that what Howard Dean meant when he a while back said that we can't pull out so fast, what he meant to say was that it's not about trying to win and unwinnable war. The issue is now about getting back safely which of course is tougher given the neocon looney scumbugs in both parties who have no respect for America.

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And then, Howard Dean also said...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Dec 7, 2005 3:18 PM   
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..."BWWWAAAAAAAWWWAAAAAAWAAAEEEEE".

I'm sorry. Have to take everything DeanyBoy says with a grain of...

..."BWAAAAAWAAAWAAAWAAAAAEEEEEE"...

in that wonderfully high-pitched falsetto of his.

I just can't seem to read ANYTHING he says without hearing...

..."BWAAAAAWWWAAAAAAAAWAAEEEEE"....

at the end of every sentence.

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Yes We Can!!!
Posted by: Unsui on Dec 7, 2005 4:18 PM   
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Is all that has to happen is; whatever government we prop up there holds on to power with enough authority to allow us to "develop" the oil patch. We draw down our military presence to a number that is acceptable to the domestic audience and voila! we win.

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» RE: Yes We Can!!! Posted by: IndyElliott
» RE: Yes We Can!!! Posted by: Unsui
» RE: Yes We Can!!! Posted by: Unsui
» RE: Yes We Can!!! Posted by: Lincoln fan
TO THOSE OF YOU WHO TRULY BELIEVE WE WON'T WIN...
Posted by: thedude on Dec 8, 2005 12:13 AM   
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I am opening a challenge to you. Here it is. Go to your local military base. Better yet, go to a local store or restaurant or bar that is frequented by member of the military. Go up to a member of the military. Even better, go up to someone you know has been fighting over there in Iraq and Afghanistan. Go up to that person and tell them they are fighting an unjust and illegal war. Tell them that they are fighting for nothing and they won't win. Tell them that their buddies died for nothing.
Come on! Take up the challenge. I dare you. If you truly feel this way about the war, then go tell it to the guys who are fighting it. Convince them to quit the military and to listen to you lay out your argument against the war.
Do it.
If you have the guts!

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» If you have the guts.... Posted by: Brucewxx
» RE: They tell me they can't win! Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: They tell me they can't win! Posted by: Sgtmackenzie
» RE: They tell me they can't win! Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: They tell me they can't win! Posted by: neuromancer
» RE: They tell me they can't win! Posted by: neuromancer
Preside