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Why Torture Doesn't Work

By Brig. Gen. David R. Irvine, AlterNet. Posted November 22, 2005.


When the Wall Street Journal came out in favor of abusive interrogation, it turned a blind eye on reason in favor of supporting the White House line.
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Remarkably, of the nation's major newspapers, only the Wall Street Journal has editorialized in support of torture as a useful tool of American intelligence policy. Regrettably, that position does a huge disservice to the nation and its soldiers. There are really only three issues in this debate, and the Journal carefully turned a blind eye to all three: (1) is torture reliable, (2) is it consistent with America's values and Constitution, and (3) does it best serve our national interests?

No one has yet offered any validated evidence that torture produces reliable intelligence. While torture apologists frequently make the claim that torture saves lives, that assertion is directly contradicted by many Army, FBI, and CIA professionals who have actually interrogated al Qaeda captives. Exhibit A is the torture-extracted confession of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, an al Qaeda captive who told the CIA in 2001, having been "rendered" to the tender mercies of Egypt, that Saddam Hussein had trained al Qaeda to use WMD. It appears that this confession was the only information upon which, in late 2002, the president, the vice president, and the secretary of state repeatedly claimed that "credible evidence" supported that claim, even though a now-declassified Defense Intelligence Agency report from February 2002 questioned the reliability of the confession because it was likely obtained under torture. In January 2004, al-Libi recanted his "confession," and a month later, the CIA recalled all intelligence reports based on his statements.

Exhibit B is the case of Manadel al-Jamadi, an Iraqi deemed a "high-value" target by the CIA. After being beaten to an extent that he had several broken ribs, he was subjected to a form of crucifixion known as "Palestinian hanging." Forty-five minutes later, he was dead, never having revealed whatever vital, ticking-bomb information his American interrogator was seeking.

If there is reliable evidence that torture has, in fact, interrupted ticking time bombs and saved lives, the gravity of the crisis created by the administration's free-wheeling torture policy demands straight answers which can be weighed and evaluated by a bipartisan, blue-ribbon commission whose membership might include interrogators, jurists, theologians, national security specialists, military leaders, and political leaders. The damage to our national interests and the dismal record of war candor by this administration has made "trust us" an insufficient justification for such a profound change in American law and moral values.

The Journal claims that Abu Ghraib was an anomaly -- that it has become a "torture narrative" that erroneously blames the CIA for the abuses depicted in the infamous photographs. The Schlesinger report was cited for the conclusion that the perpetrators were merely a group of sadistic, poorly trained Reservists. This argument, however begs the question; the rationale for the McCain amendment rests not upon Abu Ghraib, but upon the cascading stream of documented reports from other places in Afghanistan and Iraq in which brutal torture has been either authorized or winked at by several different military and civilian chains of command.


Digg!

Brigadier General David R. Irvine is a retired Army Reserve strategic intelligence officer who taught prisoner interrogation and military law for 18 years with the Sixth Army Intelligence School. He currently practices law in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Learn more and help to make sure torture never again happens in America's name by visiting Human Rights First's campaign to End Torture.

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Of course, torture doesn't work!!!
Posted by: qrswave on Nov 22, 2005 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What would you do if someone was torturing you?!!

You'd either spit in their face, or tell them anything they'll believe!!!

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No Room for Assumptions
Posted by: Wacre on Nov 22, 2005 9:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Arab street may not always grasp the finer points of separation of powers or proportional representation; but everyone, everywhere, comprehends hypocrisy, and judges us for ours.

I suspect that many Americans don't as well, which would explain a lot about some of the problems that we face today and why a current standing president can talk about imposing martial law --he was, I believe, referring to an outbreak of Asian flu--and have virtually no one blink an eye.

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Time for an overhaul at Wall Street Journal Editorial section
Posted by: chaoslegs on Nov 22, 2005 9:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Wall Street Journal is a fine newspaper, however the editorial board/pages are a disgrace. I wish a large stockholder would call for an ousting of these nimrods, like that stockholder of KnightRidder has called for a restructuring.

It isn't like they couldn't find jobs with Heritage, American Enterprise, Manhattan, etc..

Oh, and get them off PBS.

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Defining torture
Posted by: Colin on Nov 22, 2005 9:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought I would post a quote by a man called Craig Murray who describes the realities of torture from his unique position.

Craig was the former British Embassador to Uzbekistan - a country recently used by both US and GB to outsource torture - and should be respected for the position he has taken. Last year (the year before), Craig informed the British Government (and the British people) that Uzbekistan - a country both the US and Britain were dealing with at the time - was run, basically, by a brutal torturing bastard. Clearly I'm paraphrasing but the message from the Tony Blair and, probably more so, Jack Straw (Foreign Secretary) was fairly succinct - YOU'RE FIRED!

Anyway, given his knowledge of the area (which, considering how closed off Uzbekistan is, is second to not very many), he's been quite prolific on the activist front, making people aware of exactly what President Karimov and his regime get up to.

So, Craig Murray on torture:

Uzbekistan is one of those security services from whose “friendly liaison” services we obtained information. And I will tell you what torture means. It means the woman who was raped with a broken bottle in both vagina and anus, and who died after ten days of agony. It means the old man suspended by wrist shackles from the ceiling while his children were beaten to a pulp before his eyes. It means the man whose fingernails were pulled before his face was beaten and he was immersed to his armpits in boiling liquid. It means the eighteen year old whose knees and elbows were smashed, his hand immersed in boiling liquid until the skin came away and the flesh started to peel from the bone, before the back of his skull was stove in.

If you want to read the full article see here .

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» RE: Defining torture Posted by: huston3
» RE: Defining torture Posted by: cacky
Torture can be effective, if...
Posted by: rsonin on Nov 22, 2005 9:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In reply to the three points above:

(1) Torture is indeed effective, depending on what you wish to achieve.

Disinformation: Torture produces unreliable intelligence, but is reliable in producing false confesions of whatever the torturer wants confessed. Recall the famous quote by a White House Official about the "reality based community": "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality". If your interest is not in truth but in justification, and the truth of the information you need is irrelevant, then torture is an effective tool in creating your own reality. Torture is infamously used by dictators to reshape history by generating evidence of conspiracies and treason. Torture works the same way in regular law enforcement, where the beating of suspects is one means of closing cases.

Terrorism: Torture also has a use as a means of terrorizing a population into submission to harsh rule. Whatever oppression exists in a tyranny, it is better than what goes on in ministerial basements and the forest outside town. That fear can become associated with entire ideologies, leading to a kind of political superstition.

(2) Torture is entirely inconsistent with ostensible American values, though Americans are no strangers to it. From hazing to police beatings to lynchings to training torturers for foreign regimes, Americans are aware of needless cruelty on the part of authorities. So, it may not be consistent with stated American values, but it is a persistent feature of American life. This raises the question of how far outside American values torture really is, at least for some Americans.

(3) Torture never serves national interests, but it can serve the interests of the torturers. If the Bush administration can torture to elicit confessions of terrorist plots that justify that torture, other torture, and its general policy of violence, disinformation, secrecy, and surveillance, then it serves their interests, and the national interest be damned.

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The most inhumane of all...
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Nov 22, 2005 11:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OK, so you've got a perp that won't crack,he's beaten,bloodied,covered in excrement and hooked up to a battery. You've got to pull out the heavy tools. The Wall Street Journal!! Rolled tightly into a cylindar it's not only a great rib-buster but it makes a first rate anal probe. But the most inhumane of all tortures happen when.....
THEY READ IT TO YOU.

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Who here cares what the major papers say?
Posted by: ScottP on Nov 22, 2005 11:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Wall Street Journal is certainly towards the bottom of the barrel of the mainstream propaganda rags. Should we care what pablum any of them spew? Didn't the Journal issue some happy stock report about how the maker of depleted uranium ammo had a great quarter and shipped 50 tons of the stuff, without ever mentioning the fact that it's being used to poison Iraq? Did they ever expose the maker of MK77 incendiary bombs (napalm)? Did they ever note that the domino theory never panned out, and southeast Asia didn't become totalitarian states after Vietnam freed itself from our yoke, and that the whole Vietnam War was a hoax by the military industrial complex and their stooge politicians?

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All these beatiful trees! Shot to hell!
Posted by: stoney13 on Nov 22, 2005 11:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can think of no worse squandering of plug-wood than useing it to make the Wall Street Times!

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Torture Detainees & BOMB NEWS BROADCASTERS
Posted by: decembrist on Nov 22, 2005 12:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It appears thatthe British have just leaked another memo - as inflammatory as the Downing Street Memo about intelligence, but surely destined to rot in the US for lack of coverage.

The memo is a transcribed conversation between Bush and Blair, Bush wanting to bomb Aljazeera headquarters in Qatar, and Blair talking him out of it.

Aljazeera is like CNN, or the BBC in the Arab world. Reports that they actively aid al-qaeda are false, they're journalists who report on issues relating to the Arab world.

Here's a link

Story via common dreams news site

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» Link @ Aljazeera Posted by: decembrist
About Waterboarding
Posted by: Chris420 on Nov 22, 2005 3:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Waterboarding isn't really torture, eh?

Here's the description of waterboarding from the Wikipedia...

"The current practice of waterboarding was known previously as 'the water cure.' It involves tying the victim to a board with the head lower than the feet so that he or she is unable to move. A piece of cloth is held tightly over the face, and water is poured onto the cloth. Breathing is extremely difficult and the victim will be in imminent fear of death by asphyxiation. However, it is relatively difficult to aspirate a large amount of water since the lungs are higher than the mouth, and the victim is unlikely to actually expire if this is done by skilled torturers."

If you follow the link for "the water cure," here's what you get...

"Water cure is a form of torture. In one variation, the subject is tied or held down in a chair and with his face covered with a cloth, water is poured over his face. The subject feels like he is drowning and this is done to encourage the subject to talk. Another variation is to pour water down the throat of the subject being careful not to drown the subject but to make the subject feel the sensation of drowning."

Finally, from everything2.com, here's a description of something called the Spanish Water Torture...

"Sometimes called the Toca, this was another favorite of the Spanish Inquisition. The victim was tied to a rack that swiveled in the middle so that the head could be placed lower than the feet. The prisoner's head was strapped in place with an iron band, and his nose was sealed shut. A thick piece of cloth was stuffed into his mouth, and a steady stream of water was poured onto the cloth. The effect combined drowning and suffocation, all while the victim remained conscious and aware."

Torture...helping true believers root out evildoers since 1484.

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» RE: About Waterboarding Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: About Waterboarding Posted by: Chris420
» RE: About Waterboarding Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: About Waterboarding Posted by: Chris420
» RE: About Waterboarding Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: About Waterboarding Posted by: stoney13
» RE: About Waterboarding Posted by: Freon
How people think of torture
Posted by: mim on Nov 26, 2005 6:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On one hand, it's heartening to know that America's conscience is finally being touched with this news of torture, and that even Republicans are breaking ranks with the White House over this subject. But there's another side too.

Newsweek recently noted that torture doesn't work in real life, only in movies and TV shows like "24." So this Thanksgiving when the conversation turned to TV I asked my teenage nephew about "24." He said it's about a special agent who goes about on various assignments, including torturing terrorists to extract life-saving information.

Another relative said that today torture is necessary, and when I said that those who are being tortured say whatever they think will stop the pain, she looked skeptical.

What concerned me is that Peter Steinfels, the religion columnist in the NY Times, wrote a while back that in our popular storytelling, heroes may kill, but only villains torture. That was true in a kinder, gentler time, but now heroes torture.

FWIW, "24" is shown on Fox.

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» RE: How people think of torture Posted by: rnagisetty
Sauce for the Goose.....
Posted by: rdsanchez1966 on Nov 26, 2005 7:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I pray if we ever become involved in a war with China or North Korea or Iran or Syria that they don't adopt the same callous attitude that the WSJ and the rest of the neo-con gang does.

If American POW's have vital information vital to their war effort why not use torture? If torturing an American POW saves one Chinese, N. Korean, Iranian or Syrian life by all means go for it. THis is the logic the neo-cons are selling and sadly too many Americans are buying. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If they really believe this then they can't turn around and cry about Intenational Law and other such out dated legalities.

Of course I am missing the bigger picture. Those that are most likely to be tortured are going to be non-white and non-Christian. This is the unspoken but not unknown aspect of this whole debate. It is for this reason we will lose the support of the Arab Islamic world and much of the Third World.

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» RE: Sauce for the Goose..... Posted by: huston3
» RE: Sauce for the Goose..... Posted by: rdsanchez1966
remember the officers at andersonville
Posted by: remember vietnam? on Nov 28, 2005 11:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the only confederates after the civil war who were hung were the torturers at andersonville prisoner of war camp. its so much bigger than the geneva conventions. we need to make it very very clear to any men or women who would even think about dishonoring their oath to the constitution. if found out,at the LEAST, your reputation will be destroyed. we need to trust the american people on this more.
remember the swift boats guys and their ilk. they cant admit what they did and what they saw as NEEDED to be done in vietnam.

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administrador
Posted by: pjohnq on Oct 3, 2006 6:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
lego baustein
Posted by: pjohnq on Oct 3, 2006 6:22 AM   
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