AlterNet / By Robert Jensen
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 508

No Thanks to Thanksgiving

Instead, we should atone for the genocide that was incited -- and condoned -- by the very men we idolize as our 'heroic' founding fathers.
November 23, 2005  |  
 
 
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One indication of moral progress in the United States would be the replacement of Thanksgiving Day and its self-indulgent family feasting with a National Day of Atonement accompanied by a self-reflective collective fasting.

In fact, indigenous people have offered such a model; since 1970 they have marked the fourth Thursday of November as a Day of Mourning in a spiritual/political ceremony on Coles Hill overlooking Plymouth Rock, Massachusetts, one of the early sites of the European invasion of the Americas.

Not only is the thought of such a change in this white-supremacist holiday impossible to imagine, but the very mention of the idea sends most Americans into apoplectic fits -- which speaks volumes about our historical hypocrisy and its relation to the contemporary politics of empire in the United States.

That the world's great powers achieved "greatness" through criminal brutality on a grand scale is not news, of course. That those same societies are reluctant to highlight this history of barbarism also is predictable.

But in the United States, this reluctance to acknowledge our original sin -- the genocide of indigenous people -- is of special importance today. It's now routine -- even among conservative commentators -- to describe the United States as an empire, so long as everyone understands we are an inherently benevolent one. Because all our history contradicts that claim, history must be twisted and tortured to serve the purposes of the powerful.

One vehicle for taming history is various patriotic holidays, with Thanksgiving at the heart of U.S. myth-building. From an early age, we Americans hear a story about the hearty Pilgrims, whose search for freedom took them from England to Massachusetts. There, aided by the friendly Wampanoag Indians, they survived in a new and harsh environment, leading to a harvest feast in 1621 following the Pilgrims first winter.

Some aspects of the conventional story are true enough. But it's also true that by 1637 Massachusetts Gov. John Winthrop was proclaiming a thanksgiving for the successful massacre of hundreds of Pequot Indian men, women and children, part of the long and bloody process of opening up additional land to the English invaders. The pattern would repeat itself across the continent until between 95 and 99 percent of American Indians had been exterminated and the rest were left to assimilate into white society or die off on reservations, out of the view of polite society.

Simply put: Thanksgiving is the day when the dominant white culture (and, sadly, most of the rest of the non-white but non-indigenous population) celebrates the beginning of a genocide that was, in fact, blessed by the men we hold up as our heroic founding fathers.

The first president, George Washington, in 1783 said he preferred buying Indians' land rather than driving them off it because that was like driving "wild beasts" from the forest. He compared Indians to wolves, "both being beasts of prey, tho' they differ in shape."

Thomas Jefferson -- president #3 and author of the Declaration of Independence, which refers to Indians as the "merciless Indian Savages" -- was known to romanticize Indians and their culture, but that didn't stop him in 1807 from writing to his secretary of war that in a coming conflict with certain tribes, "[W]e shall destroy all of them."

As the genocide was winding down in the early 20th century, Theodore Roosevelt (president #26) defended the expansion of whites across the continent as an inevitable process "due solely to the power of the mighty civilized races which have not lost the fighting instinct, and which by their expansion are gradually bringing peace into the red wastes where the barbarian peoples of the world hold sway."

Roosevelt also once said, "I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth."

How does a country deal with the fact that some of its most revered historical figures had certain moral values and political views virtually identical to Nazis? Here's how "respectable" politicians, pundits, and professors play the game: When invoking a grand and glorious aspect of our past, then history is all-important. We are told how crucial it is for people to know history, and there is much hand wringing about the younger generations' lack of knowledge about, and respect for, that history.

In the United States, we hear constantly about the deep wisdom of the founding fathers, the adventurous spirit of the early explorers, the gritty determination of those who "settled" the country -- and about how crucial it is for children to learn these things.

But when one brings into historical discussions any facts and interpretations that contest the celebratory story and make people uncomfortable -- such as the genocide of indigenous people as the foundational act in the creation of the United States -- suddenly the value of history drops precipitously and one is asked, "Why do you insist on dwelling on the past?"

This is the mark of a well-disciplined intellectual class -- one that can extol the importance of knowing history for contemporary citizenship and, at the same time, argue that we shouldn't spend too much time thinking about history.

This off-and-on engagement with history isn't of mere academic interest; as the dominant imperial power of the moment, U.S. elites have a clear stake in the contemporary propaganda value of that history. Obscuring bitter truths about historical crimes helps perpetuate the fantasy of American benevolence, which makes it easier to sell contemporary imperial adventures -- such as the invasion and occupation of Iraq -- as another benevolent action.

Any attempt to complicate this story guarantees hostility from mainstream culture. After raising the barbarism of America's much-revered founding fathers in a lecture, I was once accused of trying to "humble our proud nation" and "undermine young people's faith in our country."

Yes, of course -- that is exactly what I would hope to achieve. We should practice the virtue of humility and avoid the excessive pride that can, when combined with great power, lead to great abuses of power.

History does matter, which is why people in power put so much energy into controlling it. The United States is hardly the only society that has created such mythology. While some historians in Great Britain continue to talk about the benefits that the empire brought to India, political movements in India want to make the mythology of Hindutva into historical fact.

Abuses of history go on in the former empire and the former colony. History can be one of the many ways we create and impose hierarchy, or it can be part of a process of liberation. The truth won't set us free, but the telling of truth at least opens the possibility of freedom.

As Americans sit down on Thanksgiving Day to gorge themselves on the bounty of empire, many will worry about the expansive effects of overeating on their waistlines. We would be better to think about the constricting effects of the day's mythology on our minds.
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Robert Jensen is a journalism professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and the author of, most recently, The Heart of Whiteness: Confronting Race, Racism and White Privilege (City Lights, 2005).
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Great article!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: churchofone on Nov 23, 2005 2:46 AM   
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Thanks for writing about what is usually "unmentionable" - the mass slaughter of the indigenous people.

"The ends are inherent in the means"

» RE: why don't you read some true Histroy Posted by: pro-conservatism
» RE: why don't you read some true Histroy Posted by: pro-conservatism
» Why don't we eliminate conservative doublespeak? Posted by: Aposterioriperception
» RE: Open your eyes Posted by: dylansstp

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How about a compromise?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Samantha Vimes on Nov 23, 2005 2:57 AM   
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Teach complexities. Put energy into true atonement, not symbolic. And let people treasure the good while regretting the bad.

I want to see the indigenous people of the US treated with respect-- no more turning a blind eye to embezzlements of funds meant to help ease poverty. Bring small business loans to reservations. Make their schools the envy of other districts.

When pagents celebrate the first Thanksgiving, let them acknowlege that kindness is sometimes rewarded by cruelty.

But don't expect children to fast and to wail for deaths they had no part in.

History is meant to be learned from. No one is celebrating the later violence, rather the initial generosity of spirit. Let us celebrate Thanksgiving by being generous, and remembering our need for others generousity.

Those who want atonement, and those who want to look at a frozen snapshot of idealism, both need to see that there's worth in each other's point of view.

» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: polyquats
» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: bonapartist
» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: polyquats
» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: Mike_Dugas
» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: MarcGarvey
» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: squattyroo

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there is no reason....
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Posted by: crusty on Nov 23, 2005 4:18 AM   
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Why the individual cannot feel such remorse for earlier events. I have no problem with that. Howev3er I believe that Thanksgiving is about giving thanks for the blessings that have been bestowed upon us in life. Sharing a day with family or friends and refledcting upon our blessings no matter how slight they are is good and healthy. I do think we should do this every day but ..... Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday.... the food .. the family... and friends and new aquaintences getting together and celebrating life.
I understand the undertones of the first thanksgiving , but I and none of my relatives had anything to do with the genocide. Both sides of my family have some genocide perpertrated upon thier relatives and while unspoken have always taught us to give thanks for what you have. SO like I said at the begining of my post ...... It is fully in your rights to have a day of remorse, but to give up thanksgiving in my eyes is not neccessary. Ah well thats my story and I m stickin to it.

» RE: there is no reason.... Posted by: crachlis
» RE: there is no reason.... Posted by: Basenjis
» Whose to say he doesn't? Posted by: Lone Pawn
» RE: Whose to say he doesn't? Posted by: maxpayne

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There are nuances
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Posted by: xiaogao on Nov 23, 2005 4:53 AM   
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OK, what we are really talking about here is Thanksgiving's uses as a propaganda tool in the teaching of children, right? Before having children, I would have agreed with the author wholeheartedly. Since becoming a parent, I've thought more about the issue from a young child's perspective, and come to slightly different conclusions.

The first thing I ever learned about Indians was the Thanksgiving story. At age five, in the early 1970s, this story taught me to believe that they were resourceful, noble, and benevolent, and for years I believed that Indians were generally superior to white people (in fact, I dreamed of being an Indian for years). Later, I WAS taught about the horrors that had been visited upon Indians, and if anything those early myths made that story even more devastating. When, in college, I saw a documentary about uranium mining on Indian land, I don't recall being resistant to its anti-imperialism on the grounds that some Indians and Englishmen had shared a friendly meal 350 years ago.

I grew up celebrating Thanksgiving in the traditional way. So did virtually everyone I knew (and so, I imagine, did the author). And yet, somehow, I (and most of my friends and relatives) managed to arrive at the same conclusions about the evils of American empire. What children take away from the Thanksgiving story is that here is an instance in which people of one culture were generous to people of another culture; that traditional, non-white societies have skill and knowledge that is valuable and important; that early Americans needed help and were not omnipotent. It is not a xenophobic myth -- it is a tale that's profoundly generous in spirit.

I can guarantee that teaching a six year-old this positive lesson -- and gradually introducing the darker truths as she gains the ability to actually make sense of them -- will be far more effective in producing future lefties than browbeating her with images of genocide and starving her all day.

» RE: There are nuances Posted by: mmc2195
» RE: There are nuances Posted by: Jeff G

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What's the point?
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Posted by: mmike87 on Nov 23, 2005 5:21 AM   
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Sure, it's important that we recognize history as it truly happened. However, I am tired of people applying today's morality to the events of 300 years ago. It's a silly exercise and is totally meaningless.

Anyone who thinks that if they had lived 300 years ago that they for certain would live, act, and think the same way they do now has their head in the sand. It's very likely that any one of us could have been on the forefront of the "Crush the Indians" movement. Who knows?

The fact is that regardless of how things went down in colonial America - none of us would likely exist had events not occured as they did. I am certainly not going to apologize for my existance.

I'm part American Indian. But you don't see me crying over the past. Two cultures collided and the strongest culture won. That's nature's way. Always has been, always will be.

Get over it.

» RE: What's the point? Posted by: john52
» RE: What's the point? Posted by: sls1982
» RE: What's the point? Posted by: monkeybrig
» RE: What's the point? Posted by: jverner
» RE: What's the point? Posted by: mvbungalo
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» RE: What's the point? Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: montana freeman Posted by: trace
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» RE: What's the point? Posted by: NeilOfWpg

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Genocide and slavery
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Posted by: wbblack on Nov 23, 2005 5:44 AM   
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Genocide and slavery are the economic “ Plymouth Rock” of the U.S economy. Throw in the indentured servitude of some Europeans and you have the essence of what the U.S. is all about. This crap about great white men who did great white deeds to build a great white world sickens and enrages me. I had to unlearn all this stuff to come to some understanding of why it seemed that such a small number of untalented parasites had so much and the rest of us had squat. I blamed myself and my family. False history does great, emotional, economic and spiritual damage to us all. The U.S is the greatest terrorist nation on the planet. It’s the most racist country in the world and with the possible exception of the years when the Nazis controlled Germany, it is probably the most racist nation or empire in recorded history. The genocide of Native peoples on this continent was a dispicable act done by despicable people. The enslavement of Africans fascism, most foul.

» RE: Genocide and slavery Posted by: john52
» RE: Genocide and slavery Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: Genocide and slavery Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Genocide and slavery Posted by: TagsNOLA
» TagsNOLA, Genocide and slavery Posted by: bonapartist
» RE: TagsNOLA, Genocide and slavery Posted by: bonapartist
» RE: TagsNOLA, Genocide and slavery Posted by: bonapartist
» RE: TagsNOLA, Genocide and slavery Posted by: bonapartist
» RE: Genocide and slavery Posted by: lterhune
» RE: Genocide and slavery Posted by: lterhune
» RE: Genocide and slavery Posted by: lterhune
» RE: Genocide and slavery Posted by: lterhune
» RE: Genocide and slavery Posted by: dchammer
» RE: Genocide and slavery Posted by: dchammer

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A Caricature of Itself
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Posted by: Grumpy Old Man on Nov 23, 2005 5:46 AM   
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On reading this article, I first surmised that it was an attempt at satire -- a caricature of a victimologist, politically correct academic. As they say, if he didn't exist, we would have to invent him.

But I think the author takes himself seriously. So sad.

The picture he paints of the interaction between Europeans and Indians is highly oversimplified. The main factor in the decline of the Indian population was epidemics of European diseases, to which the Indian population had little resistance.

Not to suggest there's nothing embarassing in our history or our conduct with the Indians -- who also were not innocent victims.

The hysterical breast-beating hatred of his own people that the author presents is, however, bizarre. I am thankful that he is free to publish this nonsense, although not necessarily that the taxpayers of Texas get to subsidize him. And I wonder if he's ever met an Indian, as opposed to congratulating himself on how virtuous his attitude is.

» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: lterhune
» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: lterhune
» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: lterhune
» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: 42Years
» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: Grumpy Old Man
» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: lterhune
» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: lterhune
» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: lterhune
» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: lterhune
» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: lterhune

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Don't replace; add
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Posted by: Jim on Nov 23, 2005 6:11 AM   
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As one who homeschools my children, with Zinn's People's History of the United States as our main history text, I agree that a National Day of Atonement is a valuable idea.

My family does not observe Indepence Day, Memorial Day, or Veterans Day. But I agree with xiaogao that there are valuable lessons in the traditional Thanksgiving myth.

For my, my family, and my church, Thanksgiving is not a time to celebrate that myth, but for giving thanks. There is much evil in this world to fight and to atone for, but there is much good to be thankful for too. A time to give thanks for all that is so good is an important balance to always focusing on the bad.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

» RE: Don't replace; add Posted by: jpramelis

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A Historical note to all the above posters
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Posted by: sausage on Nov 23, 2005 6:13 AM   
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It seems that Adolph Hitler admired white America's treatment of Indians.
"Hitler's concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination - by starvation and uneven combat - of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity." P. 202, "Adolph Hitler" by John Toland

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I can relate
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Posted by: Dave04 on Nov 23, 2005 6:13 AM   
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I've attempted to discuss the issue of Columbus Day and Thanksgiving in my classes and found that students, even then ones who usually say nothing, will speak up and claim that it would be a tragedy to do away with either. Then I ask: What if you were a Native American? How would you feel about Thanksgiving then? The usually admit they wouldn't like it, but will take no further leap in thought. No one is saying that people shouldn't get together with their family, but people shouldn't need a national holiday for that.

» RE: I can relate Posted by: Tantor

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Thanksgiving
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Posted by: nubian on Nov 23, 2005 6:15 AM   
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The Pilgrims came here in peace, to find a new way of life. The indians did not "own" the land. They were more or less nomads, moving about from place to place. If powerful or numerous enough, they simply massacred any person or group who occupied land they wanted. They hunted an area empty, then moved on. That was their "ecology." When the Pilgrims came, they were eventually attacked by the indians, as soon as the indians figured out they were vulnerable. The Pilgrims and early settlers fought back, and finally had to nearly annihilate these warlike, violent groups. We are facing a situation with Islam which is in some ways similar. Unless we annihilate Islamofascism, we, or what is left of "us," will eventually be governed by them. Then we'll see how many dissenting blogs like Alternet will be permitted.

I wonder if the editors of this Blog will find this content "innappropriate" because it doesn't share the prevailing local delusions.

The image of the indians as peaceful nature loving people is a fraud. They were mostly warlike killers who lived by the sword, who came here in the first place by violently displacing whoever was here before them.

» RE: Thanksgiving Posted by: jefhadist
» RE: Thanksgiving Posted by: Dave04
» RE: Thanksgiving Posted by: Lone Pawn
» I'm Indian Posted by: Carter
» RE: I'm Indian Posted by: BILLYBOY

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Give Thanksing...
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Posted by: jefhadist on Nov 23, 2005 6:17 AM   
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Is is possible to atone for acts of genocide committed before your birth with any meaningful result? Are the "sins of the fathers" currently being visited down to the seventh generation? Have we forgot to teach our children the whole truth and nothing but the truth ... just to spare them pain? I remember being shocked and awakened into another understanding when my Native American Studies professor, Sarah Hutchison at UCD described her fasting on Thanksgiving every year. Her family would gorge but she would refrain from food to re-member, to help put back into focus the awful truths of the "Trail of Tears," genocide, forced sterilizations, boarding schools, loss of spirituality/languages and all the documented and undocumented abuse that continues to this day. And isn't that the point? IT CONTINUES even to this day in various and nefarious ways. That's what we should be thankful for. That we can still do something about it....to heal this land and the relationships among all creation.

» RE: Give Thanksing... Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Give Thanksing... Posted by: jefhadist
» RE: Give Thanksing... Posted by: ShaSpirit
» RE: Give Thanksing... Posted by: jefhadist

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History and Hysteria
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Posted by: wilburnwilliams on Nov 23, 2005 6:19 AM   
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Everyone who wades in on the annual debate about Thanksgiving should be required to brush up on a little history before logging onto their PC's. According to Charles C. Mann's exhilarating and enlightening new book "1491," 90-112 million people, more than in Europe and one-fifth of the world population total, lived in the Americas when Columbus arrived. A century and a half later, they numbered 10-12 million.

This is the greatest demographic catastrophe in history, dwarfing the Black Death. And this tidal wave of mortality generated another tragedy: the slave trade brought millions of my people from Africa to replace the Indians who died. Smallpox probably was the main culprit, and the vast majority of indigenous Americans who perished did so, peace to Brother Jensen, long before the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock, or Plymouth Rock landed on the Pequots.

The bitter truth is that, given the immunological profile of Native Americans and the diseases they confronted, the greatest demographic disaster in history was probably unavoidable. Europeans, only a little less so than Indians, were ignorant of the causes of the havoc Europe's invasion wrought. It is easy to forget that Robert Koch's germ theory of disease was formulated only 130 years ago. Vaccination was introduced in the West only in 1796, long after the smallpox devil had done its work on Native Americans.

But as Mann points out in his sophisticated discussion of this and other sensitive issues in his fine book, ignorance of germ theory may alleviate the guilt of Europeans, but it does not relieve them of their responsibility for the massive destruction of New World people and the consequences that flowed in its wake, consequences which we have the power to ameliorate today. It is unfortunate that the deeply informed and subtly nuanced intelligence that shapes Mann's reading of this tragic history will be little in evidence, either on the airwaves or in cyberspace, this holiday weekend. Before the annual orgy of sadistic recrimination and masochistic self-flagellation begins, however, I hope that readers of this message will take time to read Mann's book. Failing that, they should read William H. McNeill's penetrating review of "1491" in the December 1, 2005 issue of "The New York Review of Books," available in bookstores, libraries and homes where civil discussion of complex tragedies is prized.

Happy Thanksgiving!

» RE: History and Hysteria Posted by: nubian
» RE: History and Hysteria Posted by: jefhadist
» RE: History and Hysteria Posted by: bonapartist
» RE: History and Hysteria Posted by: wilburnwilliams
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» RE: History and Hysteria Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: History and Hysteria Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: History and Hysteria Posted by: wilburnwilliams
» RE: History and Hysteria Posted by: Tantor

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Let Us Give Thanks
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Posted by: Lulu Gee on Nov 23, 2005 6:27 AM   
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While I appreciate Robert Jensen's effort to quicken our consciousness of the genocide committed by european invaders on this continent and the need for acts of atonement, I do not agree that Thanksgiving should be forsaken and used as that day of atonement. One reason being that our conception of the thanksgiving of the pirgrim-invaders is mythical, in that is is cut off from its roots (perhaps pre-christian) in England.
When I lived in England, I was surpirsed to find that the Church of England also celebrates Thanksgiving. It is connected to the harvest and is, perhaps, the only sincere ritual left in Christendom; but that may be because it predates the arrival of chiritianity in England.
As practiced in England, it is the only time of the year where people simply give thanks for what they have and refrain from asking for more or dwelling on their own shortcomings. It is a beautiful ritual where parishioners bring to the alter, fruits of the harvest as offerings and sing the praises of life on planet earth.
Giving thanks without thought of the enormity of our sins (indivudual or communal) is humbling as it returns us toward our dependence on so many elements (mineral, vegetable, animal) of life in our environments.
Yes I know we have gotten very far away from that sense of the holiday, but I think that we need to have days of thanksgiving as well as days of atonement and Thanksgiving can help us bring back awareness of ourselves as connected to one another through our dependance on earthly bounty.

» Then leave the turkey alone Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Let Us Give Thanks Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: Let Us Give Thanks Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Let Us Give Thanks Posted by: ShaSpirit

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HFV
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Posted by: HFV on Nov 23, 2005 6:27 AM   
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I, too, thought this might be an attempt at satire. Not so.

Ponder this: What if this country had not been invaded by Bible thumpimg European white men? What would have been the fate of the indigenous peoples? What examples can we look to today of an indigenous people who have survived intact?
China? Not a pretty story there

Parts of northern South America? Not a good example I suppose because they exist only under the security umbrellla of the US.

Parts of central Africa? I think I would prefer to have taken my chances in China.

Frankly, the indigenous tribes of North America, in spite of their indisputable suffering, have fared better than any indigenous people I can think of. So the European white faced Bible thumpers created a society that, although not perfect (and nothing is perfect), eventually accomodated the indigenous tribes better than any other society on earth.

» RE: HFV Posted by: nubian
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» RE: HFV Posted by: HFV
» your joking Posted by: decembrist

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Take a moment and look around....
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Posted by: bettsoff on Nov 23, 2005 6:31 AM   
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It's very interesting to read the many different interpretations of the Pilgrim-Invader/Indian-Native interactions. History is in the eye of the beholder.

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agitator church and state
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Posted by: eileenflmng on Nov 23, 2005 6:35 AM   
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The Indigenous HOPI People Offer the USA the DECLARATION OF PEACE
Which begins:

"It is in the Power of the True Hopi People to unify the minds and spirits of all true peace seeking peoples of the earth..."Hopi" means "Peaceful People"... and the truest and greatest power is the strength of Peace...because Peace is the Will Of The Great Spirit..."

In 2001 we began The United Nations International Decade of Creating a Culture of Peace and Nonviolence for the Children of The World.

This Christmas Morning at First Light will be the first [annual?] Interfaith Bethlehem to Jerusalem Prayer Circle and Peace Walk for All the Children of The World

We walkers come from all faiths and are united with the Spiritual Wisdom of the:
"True Hopi People who know how to show to all the world's Children the True Way of Life by setting an example...by working and communicating in a way that reaches the minds and hearts of all people who are truly seeking the methods of a simple and spiritual Life which is the only Life that will survive...

read more on WAWA:
www.wearewideawake.org

» RE: agitator church and state Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: agitator church and state Posted by: cstriker

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Thanksgiving is for giving thanks
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Posted by: artytheonemanparty on Nov 23, 2005 6:57 AM   
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How could you continue to live in such a country?

If I believed as you do, I would have emmigrated.

Any chance I could convince you to do so?

Are you compelled to stay in a country founded by people you accuse of genocide? By staying and enjoying the benefits of their genocide are you not an accomplice after the fact?

I know you don't believe what you claim. If you were sincere, you would give any land you own to the descendants of native Americans and move away.

The only atonement I commemorate is the solemn atonement of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world.

This Thanksgiving, I will be shooting my assault weapons, enjoying a delicious meal, visiting my loved-ones, and saying prayers of thanks to my Father in heaven for the blessings of liberty.

May the Lord bless and keep you...far away from me.

Arty

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No thanks--to articles like yours
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Kristy on Nov 23, 2005 7:37 AM   
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Feel free to atone, sad white-guilt purveyors. Fast, give away your land, moan, groan, and weep and cry. Get it out, get over Gore's loss and Kerry's loss, and your loss. If you hate this country sooo much, leave it. Sure, you are free to whine all you want but it's a real downer for the rest of us. I have native American blood coming from all directions in my family and my husband does as well. My grandfather was 1/2 Cherokee and my grandmother was descended from Seminoles. I HAVE cried over what was done in the US hundreds of years ago. But it has happened all over the globe for tens of thousands of years--is everyone to atone? How far back shall we go? Shall HUNgarians atone for what Attila the Hun did? What about Arab terrorists--should they atone for what they did yesterday? I shudder to think that anyone is teaching this class A junk to our children. The world has good and the world has evil. Move on.

» Get your history right!!! Posted by: brunowe

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Who owes who?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: g.quinn on Nov 23, 2005 7:40 AM   
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The people who invaded North America from Asia, and who now proclaim themselves “indigenous,” owe attonement for fate they inflicted on the Clovis. And we all owe attonement to the Neanderthal. The only indigenous people are Africans. Everyone else is a migrant.

» RE: Who owes who? Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: Who owes who? Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: Who owes whom? Posted by: g.quinn

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Yes, giving thanks "I am not like others" is perverse
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Posted by: Sojourner on Nov 23, 2005 7:51 AM   
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But gratitude can be a genuine expression of humility and acceptance.

The genocide of indigenous peoples in the so-called New World shows how deep the roots of warfare go for those of us whose ancestors came from Europe. That native peoples could not understand the ferocity of the invaders except as insanity is well documented. The waves of slavery imposed on the people have left all of us marked.

However, I am not aware that anyone seriously denies that history. It would be well if we acknowledged it along with our self-celebrations. But the real issue is the extent to which we perpetuate our self-serving exploitation.

Ask Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro or the third world countries that we dominate economically. The irony of the Iraq War is that our failure there has distracted us and given Central and South America a bit of breathing room to find their own way.

Isn't always a question whether you look at the cloud or the silver lining?

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In My Humble Opinion...
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Posted by: cstriker on Nov 23, 2005 7:51 AM   
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the author is somewhat deluded. Much of what he says about the history around Thanksgiving is true. However, he seems to lack an understanding of the purpose of the holiday. For some it may have involved genocide, but for most Thanksgiving is simply a day of giving thanks for a bountiful harvest or just for being alive.

I am part Cherokee (I think it was my great-great grandfather), and the rest is European. But does it really matter at this point in history. Oh, I do think the genocide that occurred in the Americas is abhorrent, but that has nothing to do with my idea of Thanksgiving. You want to attone for the failings of people past, great! Personally, I feel that we should be looking forward. We succeed together as a society or we fail together as individuals.

Failure to remember history does doom us to repeat it. Instead of doing away with a holiday that is designed for giving thanks of life, bounty, or anything else why don't we just work on teaching the truth of history (world wide) and continue giving thanks? What does Thanksgiving mean to you? Are you aware of the genocidal history of the world?

History or not, we still have to live together. And frankly, I am still thankful to have family, friends, a roof, and the like. So why shouldn't I be able to celebrate that?

Besides, how do you attone for the history of the dead? Isn't the ideal just to work towards everyone being fed, clothed, and having health care? This author is doing good by trying to express truth, but I think he used a very poor approach.

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memetic
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Posted by: jpinder on Nov 23, 2005 7:56 AM   
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I feel thanksgiving is no longer about a historical event, it’s more like a family reunion day, no one really sits at the table and talk or even think of pilgrims.

I wish they would stop the tradition of turkey eating, too many of these animals are killed but not consumed.

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Happy Thanksgiving
[Report this comment]
Posted by: DFrost on Nov 23, 2005 7:56 AM   
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People came to this country seeking religious freedom. Ultimately, they found it. No, they weren't perfect (no more, I suppose, than those they displaced), but they had grit and determination, and, ultimately, they succeeded, leaving us heirs to the greatest and most powerful nation that has ever existed. More than that, they have left us heirs to a belief in justice that, bluster and hype aside, the author of this article tries to express. Eschew their errors, drone on about their shortcomings, lionize those they vanquished, but never forget their greatness.

Happy Thanksgiving to all, and God bless America!

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spread the word
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Posted by: pony on Nov 23, 2005 7:59 AM   
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word of mouth and general consensus can replace miseducation. most people i know repeat what they hear, not what they were taught. it's all education. just be sure to use a non-threatening tone, that would put someone's belief structure on the defense. it's gonna take time, but spread the word. boycott traditional fake patriotic holidays!

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thank you!
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Posted by: jheydtne on Nov 23, 2005 8:09 AM   
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As a ninth grade American History teacher in a public school which is located in a very politically conservative (How conservative? Well, over the protests of teachers and students our school district celebrates Columbus Day . . . but does not celebrate Martin Luther King's birthday!) area of the United States . . . I want to thank you for your article! I will certainly use it as part of my let's-get-an-honest-perspective curriculum.

» RE: thank you! Posted by: Tantor
» RE: thank you! Posted by: maxpayne

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same old stuff, different day
[Report this comment]
Posted by: native woman on Nov 23, 2005 8:16 AM   
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I am a Native woman, and have listened to White America's defensive Master Narrative all my life. Notice I do not say that I am (a) part Native American, (b) part Cherokee and part something else, or (c) an American. I am a citizen of my Indigenous Nation, and find those commentors who referred to themselves as "part Native American" or "part Cherokee (or any other tribe)" and whose message was basically "Get Over It," quite offensive. Offensive because you are obviously ignorant about your Native blood and culture, because if you had grown up in your Native culture you would never refer to yourselves as "part Native American" or anything else. You would identify with your Indigenous Nation, and you would never say "Get Over It," when referring to the intergenerational holocaust perpetuated on Native peoples in this country.

I'm not surprised at the majority of messages generated by this article: most Americans are not ready to really look in the mirror and get honest about was has been done, and what continues to be done, to the people whose homelands you are in. So you deny, obfuscate, lie, call names, demean and even glory in your government's genocidal history. Go ahead - it doesn't make Native people look bad when you do that - you only make yourselves look bad. And a final note to the person who said we migrated here like everyone else: you don't know what you're talking about. But I do: I am a member of an Indigenous culture that is thousands and thousands of years old, and I know exactly where my people emerged from, and it was right here in our homelands, and not from some place far away and over the waters, like you. Get over it.

» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: digitalbrownshirt
» cold piece of shit Posted by: decembrist
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: native woman
» RE: Amen! My Native Sister! Posted by: ladywhosmokes
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: native woman
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: ladywhosmokes
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: SLCandy2005

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white europeans have no monopoly on genocide
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Nov 23, 2005 8:25 AM   
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Human beings have practiced genocide since time immemorial. Neither the Native American genocide nor the Shoah of the Nazis is unique.

At his first inaugural, Abraham Lincoln appealed to the "better angels of our nature." Man always has the choice to do the right thing, but as genocide after genocide demonstrates man often chooses evil instead.

My wife's father was a refugee from the Armenian genocide of 1915. Before I met him, I had never heard of this awful event in high school history class either.

Just a few of many historic genocides:
Bronze age Greeks eliminate Minoans.
Israelites subdue land of Canaan after leaving Egypt, killing Canaaninte men, women, children, animals.
Romans eliminate citizens of Carthage.
Irish (Scotti in Latin) eliminate Picts in present-day Scotland, displace them.
Pol Pot kills millions of his fellow Cambodians, especially educated, middle-class Cambodians.
Mao kills millions during Cultural Revolution of 1967
Stalin starves millions of Ukranian farmers to death, under slogan "down with the Kulaks as a class."

War is an elaborate form of theft. Only the victors breed. If you are alive today, somebody in your family tree was a murderer.

You are responsible for doing the right thing today. The past is gone. All you can do is learn from the mistakes of the past, and avoid repeating them.

And don't forget the "better angels of your nature."

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Why America Is A Great Country
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Posted by: mohican on Nov 23, 2005 8:27 AM   
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After reading your guilt-ridden message, the one question that comes to my mind professor is, why are you still here?

If the United States is a country as despicable as you describe, then I for one would pack up and head to a place with a more palatable history.

Perhaps the UK, but then you have that nasty British Empire period to deal with. France, no it had an empire as well, not to mention Napoleon. Germany is out, Russia too I suppose. China had several dynasties, Japan has always been pretty warlike, even Sweden once ruled most of northern Europe and did lots of nasty stuff I bet. Canada, I suppose not since they also pushed their Indians out to build Toronto and Montreal, Mexico is in the same boat. You cannot even go and live with an Indian tribe on their reservation because before North America was colonized those tribes spent their spare time slaughtering each other.

Gee when you come to think of it all of human history is built on one culture dominating another. Is what happened right, no. We treated the Indians terribly, but that cannot be reversed. Converting a holiday that depicts one of the few instances where the colonists and natives got along, at least for a brief period, should not be reworked to fit into your self-abusive ideal.

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Wow just when I thought I could enjoy Thanksgiving
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Posted by: digitalbrownshirt on Nov 23, 2005 8:35 AM   
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Thanks for shedding light on how horrible I am. I will now join the "guity white male" brigade and vote for Barack Obama in 2008 to confront my past sins. He is part cherokee right?

I don't know what he stands for, but he speaks so well and is tall.

» You're a real card! Posted by: sausage
» RE: Last insult I'll trade with you, fool Posted by: digitalbrownshirt

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creativity
[Report this comment]
Posted by: gemelabuena on Nov 23, 2005 8:37 AM   
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why is the left's solution always to abolish things? why can't we instead transform, add, be creative? thanksgiving is just a harvest feast, such as agricultural societies worldwide have celebrated for thousands of years. it didn't come into being on plymouth rock. should the fact that people have committed atrocities mean that we never celebrate the wonder of being fed by the earth? i'm all for a day of atonement (possibly on columbus day, which in my mind has a lot more to do with the genocide of indigenous people than a harvest feast does), and i'm all for telling the truth about how, after indigenous people saved europeans from starvation the europeans turned around and slaughtered them. i'm also all for focusing as much attention as possible on the CURRENT oppression of indigenous people, which is widespread and severe. if the focus is on changing the situation of indigenous people today, and it should be, then we should be a lot more concerned about bringing more people from the mainstream on board to build the political will to make these changes happen. telling people in the mainstream that in order to fit into your moral high ground club they have to stop celebrating one of the most wondrous things there is - the harvest - is not going to win them over.

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The revisionist history part of this article...
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Posted by: Ricki on Nov 23, 2005 8:40 AM   
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... is so true. My husband and I are historical re-enactors. We teach history by being characters in the Rev. war time period. We have been at events where history is totally sanitized to avoid "offending" people, i.e., no mention made of atrocities perpetuated by BOTH white and native. In conversations I have had with public, when such things are mentioned, and they SHOULD be, they are a real part of history, some would not believe such things, and would be very upset. Native peoples tortured. Native peoples as well as whites practiced slavery. Native peoples warred on neighboring tribes. On the whole, they were not the peace loving living in harmony stereotype often perpetuated today. The whites of that time were products of their supremacist, sexist culture. Looking at European history, and the causes of the immigrations to America and the differences in cultures, particulary in clashing cultural views on land usage, what happened was inevitable. Yes, we should be sorry for atrocities on both sides. But more importantly WE SHOULD NOT SANITIZE HISTORY. WE SHOULD NOT MAKE IT POLITICALLY CORRECT. WE SHOULD TEACH IT WARTS AND ALL. And a lot of it is ugly. To me, that is how you atone for past atrocities, because with that knowledge that is how we learn to be better than what was before. So that we can evolve into more peaceful, loving, accepting peoples. As for the holiday itself, I feel that it should be a time for thanks for what we have, and prayers for those who do not have as much. It seems like for most folks the holiday is pretty divorced from the history.

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America's Sins and Virtues
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Posted by: justsalt on Nov 23, 2005 8:57 AM   
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America's sins, and they are many, are the same sins one finds throughout history among all peoples, including Native Americans. These include racism, genocide of competing peoples and slavery. Through out history, on all continents you find these. They are terrible. It is very necessary for all of us humans to acknowledge these in our culture's past and beware of them now.

America's virtues are her own and have blessed the whole world. Among these I would include large-scale representative government, freedom of religion, the dignity and rights of the individual. These (and others) are the culmination of the long Western tradition of thought and belief that started with the Jews and the Greeks and developed through Christianity and the Elightenment. These ideas were brought to fruition here in the US and due to that working example have spread throughout the whole world.

Without these virtues articles like the above would never be written, since racism, genocide, slavery and the like would still be accepted as facts of life through out the world.

That is what I am going to celebrate on Thanksgiving.

» RE: America's Sins and Virtues Posted by: justsalt
» RE: America's Sins and Virtues Posted by: Basenjis

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Lets blame someone
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Posted by: digitalbrownshirt on Nov 23, 2005 9:06 AM   
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OK, so Columbus was Italian sent by the Spanish. England had its share too.

Spain was conquered by Arab moslems and many Spanish have Arab/Moslem blood in them. Italy was once conquered by Ethopians giving them some African blood. England was conquered by Anglo Saxon and Norman tribes who hail from the Vikings who also conquered parts of Russia in which they continued to migrate through Alaska and on down into present day Canada and Norhwest America. The Spanish (and their Arab/Moslem blood) conquered present day S.America who have mixed with indigenous tribes creating present day Latin America and Mexico who in turn migrated North to East LA, driving out many whites to Oklahoma causing other indigenous peoples to move and open casinos in Minnesota. Don't forget the APACHES, Mormons, Quakers, Hells Angels, Crips, Bloods, Barbara Striesand, AIDS and the rainforest.

Oh I'm soooooo confused. Who should we blame????

» RE: Lets blame someone Posted by: Erin
» RE: Lets blame someone Posted by: digitalbrownshirt
» RE: Lets blame someone Posted by: churchofone

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It is time to CANCEL Thankgiving Day
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 23, 2005 9:11 AM   
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After all, there's no gratitude in this country and until we Americans learn to discipline ourselves and each other, "Thanksgiving Day" will continue to be a big joke just like "Independence Day" where we say we're an independent nation and yet we're living off borrowed money from other countries.

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If it was that easy...
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Posted by: bonapartist on Nov 23, 2005 9:12 AM   
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...it would be great.

I would just like to say that, as a holder of a degree in history, avoid overall generalization in either direction. It seems that two extremes these days consist of “great and benevolent white men bringing civilization to Americas” versus “the noble natives living in near utopian circumstances until massacred by brutal invaders”.

Sorry but history is far more complex then that and the best interpretation of the truth is somewhere in between.

Hernan Cortes, for example, was so ridden by guilt for what he did against Aztecs that he petitioned the Spanish crown, in essence asking it to protect the natives. The Aztecs practiced human sacrifices and probably ritual cannibalism, when Spaniards arrived they find a lot of willing native allies who believed that nothing is worse then Aztec overlordship. Spain was also one of the first countries, in XVI century, that enacted laws protecting the native population to some extent but those laws were often ignored in the colonies. And so it goes on, and on, and on… There is no simple black and white interpretation that can hold water.

Also I am against settling the historical scores because, if for no other reason, where do they end?

From the practical considerations I would suggest that Thanksgiving incorporates both the celebration and five minutes of mourning for the past.

» RE: If it was that easy... Posted by: churchofone
» RE: If it was that easy... Posted by: bonapartist

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Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred
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Posted by: Webimpulse on Nov 23, 2005 9:18 AM   
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Yes, like the poster with the handle Native Woman has stated, I too have a hard time coming to grips with this nation's past. In fact, so much so, that being a white male American citizen has given me much cause for self-loathing, depression, and suicidal thoughts.

Yes, I have thought of suicide as a method of atonement for my sins. And yes, I know that I do need to atone. I know that I am the beneficiary of genocide, and that by partaking in it, I am showing my support. But due to the hardships I face in life, as someone with Asperger Syndrome, a panic disorder, and chronic depression, the only way I can cope with my everyday life is by partaking in such affluence, an affluence I know painfully well came from the blood of other ancestors who weren't mine. And because of such a dependency, and where it comes from, I keep coming to the same conclusion - that ending my own life is the only way I can properly atone. Hell, I can't even fast because of my Type II Diabetes and how fasting would aversely affect my health. So, why not prevent myself from eating all food and kill myself?

Yeah, yeah, I know people not my same skin color and citizenry suffer far more than I do. But there's been one thought that's keeping me alive, and writing this comment today: I didn't ask to be born a white male American citizen. I didn't ask to be a descendant of a genocidal, terrorist people, or ask to partake in their affluence. If there is a God, I want to punch Him out, like Hartigan wanted to do in Sin City. I hate Him for making me born white. I'm truly convinced he is an evil God for what he made me born as. It just isn't fair.

Which brings me to this question: to Native Woman, Polyquats, and all others who know the rent I have to pay - how the hell am I supposed to do it without resorting to suicide? How am I supposed to keep happy, healthy, sane, and enjoying life without partaking in the sins of my ancestors? Please tell me. My life is on the line.

I know there are those of you who will take what I've written here and twist it to say that people like Native Woman or Polyquats, or the original author, are wrong, and use my post as proof that they hold "terrorist" ideology, and say Thanksgiving is great and good and that the US is a great moral nation. To those people: don't bother. I will not have my suffering be used as a tool for oppression.

» RE: Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred Posted by: digitalbrownshirt
» RE: Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred Posted by: SLCandy2005

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This is one reason why progressives fail to reach people
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Posted by: CrystalD on Nov 23, 2005 9:25 AM   
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I see by the comments that Jensen's article has made a lot of people very defensive and angry. And I thought - this is one of the failures of the progressive movement. Nine times out of ten, proggies come off like sanctimonious killjoys - the stereotype of the "Shush!" librarian or the kid who narced on you to the teacher for passing notes in class. This isn't exactly calculated to win friends and influence people.

The message that American Indians might not be exactly thrilled by the concept of Thanksgiving, plus the very real fact that the Founding Fathers had (to say the least) feet of clay, was overshadowed by "Atone! Fast! Bow your heads! Have no fun!" Now who wants to hear that? And, predictably, most of the responses here have been more or less "Thanksgiving rules. Go jump in the lake, Jensen."

Meanwhile, a few commentors here have brought up the sensible and culture-neutral idea of a harvest festival of gratitude and family togetherness instead of a "Thanksgiving." I agree with these posters. There is nothing wrong with family togetherness, giving thanks and, yes, feasting and indulgence. Prune-lipped "progressives" ought to focus on the positive and quit suggesting hair shirts for all.

Linguist George Lakoff is famous for his talk of "framing" and language in "Don't Think Of An Elephant" and various articles. Progressives need to start thinking of framing in their own messages so they don't turn off the people they need to reach the most, nor marginalize themselves in public discourse. Progressives can't afford to play the Friday turds at a Saturday market - which is what Jensen is doing in this article. He needs to reframe.

» You don't like progressive Posted by: Lone Pawn

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Charlie Brown moment
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Posted by: pcarroll on Nov 23, 2005 9:28 AM   
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You know the bit, where all you hear is "Wah wah wah wah, wah wah, wah wah wah wah wah."

Same reaction to this.

I'm not up for the self-flagellation. I'm not up for the guilt. I'm not up for the self-loathing.

I live in the country which is the zenith of white European achievement, and I'm lovin' it.

Pass the turkey.

» RE: Charlie Brown moment Posted by: cstriker
» RE: Charlie Brown moment Posted by: trace
» RE: Charlie Brown moment Posted by: cstriker

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Censure Donald Rumsfeld!!!!!!!!!
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Posted by: digitalbrownshirt on Nov 23, 2005 9:30 AM   
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Oh, sorry....I thought this was moveon.org

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Two Americas!
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Posted by: digitalbrownshirt on Nov 23, 2005 9:35 AM   
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So, how does this fit in with John Edward's Two Americas speech? Does this mean there are like 2 1/2 or 3 or 4 Americas?

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I'll probably be sorry I brought this up. . . . .
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Posted by: NthnBrazil on Nov 23, 2005 9:39 AM   
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I realize this brings a whole new level into this debate, but the idea of atonement to indigenous peoples & reparations are very close in concept, so I can't help but think of them together.

Being the descendant of post-civil war Ellis Island immigrants, I have always felt sort of ambivalent about the idea of atonement/reparations. Sounds like a nice idea in theory, but exactly who atones and how? If I trace my lineage back and my family has only been American for about 85 years, what is my share of it? How is this rationalized?

In the specific case of reparations for slavery, if we go the corporation route to try and punish who profited the most, what stops the pain from being felt further down the chain? If some insurance company that insured slaves needs to pay big bucks, and they do some cut-backs and lay-off people, won't that quite possibly affect even some children of slaves as well? Does that invalidate the concept or is it supposed to balance out by the benefit that person should receive? What about recent immigrants who took no part in the system but lose their jobs without any payout coming back from the settlement? Why should they be punished?

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OH THE HUMANITY
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Posted by: cstriker on Nov 23, 2005 9:47 AM   
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Have you read all the posts here today? Have you seen the abuse that everyone is heaping out. It is out of hand. Can't anyone debate without abusing one another anymore?

We are human and as such we are the same. Many of you have accused people of so many things here today and it is truely disturbing that you cannot see the bigger picture.

History from all sides (weeners and losers) is a necessity. It teaches about mistakes and helps us learn how we can make things better for the present. So many of you don't seem to have learned from the mistakes caused by dividing along religious lines or cultural devides. Please people grow up. While so many in this world have so little and (if you are posting here) you have so much, you think it is acceptible to argue symantics?

I'm disgusted and if I could withdraw from humanity after reading your responses today, I would.

» RE: OH THE HUMANITY Posted by: kittynboi

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Screw the Founding Fathers...
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Posted by: Ayatrollah on Nov 23, 2005 9:47 AM   
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How dare they create a country where men like Robert Jensen can freely critique and criticize those in power? How dare they draft a constitution that limits and divides the powers of the government, gives the people the free will to rule themselves and the power to peacefully remove those they do not agree with through the ballot box, oh the horror. It’s sad that men like Robert Jensen, those that love this country so much and are so ashamed of it that they must live outside our boarders in foreign lands with all the freedoms that we no longer have here, taken away by Bush Hitler. Men with principle and honor that they would not have to live with the shame the US represents by living on its shores and receiving one iota of its “freedoms”. No Blood for Freedom, I always say! Such a man of conviction is Robert Jensen. Some day Robert will be able to return to our shores when we have apologized to each and every single person still living from the days of oppression starting when Leif Erickson first colonized this blighted land with savages with white skin.

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I am thankful
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Posted by: emkkahn on Nov 23, 2005 10:12 AM   
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I am very thankful that I have "evolved" past the thinking of what I call the "pityers" and can now see some of their own "myths" with open eyes.
First there's the "Peaceful primitives" myth. People have been warring since the first time a humanoid picked up a stick or a bone and learned that he could kill someone else to get his way. There has never been a time in human history since then when humans haven't been killing each other. "Native" Americans did a lot of killing amongst themselves long before the Europeans got here. Why no condemnation of the tribe killing tribe action? Or is it only whites who's killing is "immoral"?
Then there's the "It could all have been avoided myth". The "discovery" of the Americas by Europeans was inevitable. The clash of civilizations was inevitable and the fact that the civilization with the higher level of technology would win the clash was inevitable. And so what? A culture dies? That happens all the time with or without war. Just look at what's happening in Paris these days. There's a culture that's going down the drain.
And finally there's the "Indigenous People" myth. All humans are immigrants to this continent if you go back far enough. Also, every person born on this continent is just as "native" to it. I was born here just as much as a descendent of a Navajo was. I'm sure the author would never call the Siberians crossing the Berring land bride thousands of years ago "invaders", but then again it's only white people who seem to have the capacity of doing "evil".
To sit around and feel guilty for situations that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago is a waste of your time. To loath yourself for being a descendent of people who did things that today would be unacceptable is to waste your life away. And this whole idea of judging ancient peoples against what is acceptable in modern culture is ridiculous.

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You still have to tell the truth
[Report this comment]
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Nov 23, 2005 10:28 AM   
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As much as we'd like to sweep this Govt's treatment of the American Indian under the rug, it's just too big a 'pile' to hide.
I say 'this Govt' because the folks that eventually became the govt were the rich of their day and just like now,they put their own into power.
The extermination policy of the Govt towards the Indians has been in full swing since 1492. Forced sterilization had been the pratice on the Plains Indians up until the 1970's.
Why? They kicked Custer's ass. The Boy General was a liar and spy for the Govt and got what a Liar's supposed to get.
He was my uncle too but that does'nt change the fact he was
an enemy of the People.
Mt. Rushmore is more a celebration of Genocidal Maniacs then a monument to heroism. Every face up there is as much charlaton as statesman.
My family got here just after the Revolutionary War. By the time I came along my family lines new both slave owners and Indian killers. But there were also those whom married Indians and blacks so I have a whole lot of everyone in my genes. I could'nt be more proud or apologetic. I'm thankful for BOTH lines of my history. One taught me the ways of the Tyrant,the other the ways of spirit and family.
Yes BOTH the Pilgrims and the Puritans slaughtered Indians
to save their people. Perhaps if they'd 'asked' instead of
'taken' this would truly be a time of 'Thanksgiving'. Had the Europeans come as Friends instead of Conquerers we could rejoice in our meeting eachother.
As for me, I'm thankful in the old way. Thankful for the air,the waters, the Earth to walk on, the fish,the animals,plants,trees and people. I am also thankful that more Tyrants and their lapdogs die in their sleep every day than could be killed in any war.
But we must always tell the truth about history. Not just to stave off a 1984 style of history keeping,but to keep us from the hell of repeating it. To want it any other way makes you
part of the problem.

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ward_off_monkey
[Report this comment]
Posted by: dt's on Nov 23, 2005 10:43 AM   
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you sound like such a sad, angry person...

» RE: ward_off_monkey Posted by: kittynboi

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Glad I Slept Through History
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Joe on Nov 23, 2005 10:49 AM   
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Thanksgiving is one of the reasons I'm glad I slept through history. Over 90% of what is presented as "American History" is bullshit. You have a president who wipes his ass with the constitution. Over 90% of America "Freedom" is bullshit. You had Christians who used religion to justify the murder of the original inhabitants of this land. Over 90% of religion is bullshit. Morals are bullshit, because people pick and choose when they apply. I have more respect for drug dealers -- at least they are honest

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Interesting Smithsonian article on this very topic: guaranteed to annoy everyone!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: AdamSelene11726 on Nov 23, 2005 10:49 AM   
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Ever wonder why "Squanto" spoke such good English and why the Wampanoag confederation wanted to befriend the Plymouth colony?

Fascinating stuff. See:

http://www.
smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/
issues05/dec05/indians.html

When you consider that the Smithsonian Magazine represents this enormous pool of scholarly talent, walking a very fine line between celebrating our cherished icons and promulgating revisionist history ... the December issue (all of which is online BTB) present both Thanksgiving and Charles Darwin

http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian
/issues05/dec05/darwin.html

a very different light than you might expect.

Read them if you dare.

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What reasonable perspective this essay has, the Progressive movement deserves like success.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: tdperk on Nov 23, 2005 10:59 AM   
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You write:

"How does a country deal with the fact that some of its most revered historical figures had certain moral values and political views virtually identical to Nazis?"

Recognize that these cherrypicked quotes do not reflect the sum of their feelings. Neither do they reflect the outcome of their actions, which is that if they intended genocide in a manner virtually identical to the one the Nazi's intended they failed miserably--please note the significance of the fact if they had intended genocide, they likely would have accomplished it.

You might, if you want to write progressively, show more perspective for those who in their day did more that was progressive than any who have lived since. From then until now and for the foreseeable future they ended the rule of royalty, that reasonably demands much be forgiven.

The worst that could be reasonably said is the worst of their views were no worse than was common in the day among humanity worldwide and the best of their views were so much better than was common that we should have a day thanksgiving set aside merely to celebrate the effect they did have on human history.

Until we have such a day, the fourth Thursday in November will do.

And all of this is beside the fact the "genocide" was largely done about as soon as the first person from Eurasia set foot on either coast and sneezed, whatever was in their hearts.

Yours, Tom Perkins, molon labe, montani semper liberi, & para fides paternae patria

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Recent Indian history & thanksgiving
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Posted by: Carter on Nov 23, 2005 11:01 AM   
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Recently I was asked why I fight against America's foreign wars and speak against them so often. The reason lies in the recent history of my people, I'm a Ponca. My history, like many ndns, is so much different than other Americans that they can not understand where I'm coming from... so here's where I'm coming from; I oppose the war on Iraq and I am proof that the American excuse of benevolence is condemned by the life of my own small Nation. We too became the target of American "benevolence". It has lasted three generations with no end in sight and like most acts of genocidal magnitude it was/is and always will be, based in greed.

In the late 1870's the Americans decided their treaties with our Nation were mere paper so they sent their army to round up my Grandfather, my Grandmother and all the rest of my relations from the land guaranteed to them forever and made them walk to a concentration camp on the Quapaw rez, close to Baxter Springs, Kansas. Nine died on the walk, all were sickened heart and soul. We stayed there for three years and one third of my family, my clan and my Tribe died before they made us buy another reservation and told us it was ours to live on forever. My Great Grandfather led his family in a great struggle for survival, holding them together as those we had long befriended turned viciously upon us and drove us from our homelands. My Great Grandmother carried four rocks from our homeland on the Niobara all the way to where I stand today, it was all she could save of the circle of life they were leaving. continued...

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Bravo!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: BILLYBOY on Nov 23, 2005 11:02 AM   
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Finally someone has said it!

Hats off to you for your progessive thinking. I find it just heartbreaking what happened to those poor drunken indians.

How they have suffered at our hands! We really are terrible people. Gosh America is really horrible. I never really thought about how bad we are as a nation until I was enlightened by your article.

Well this year I will make amends I am going to buy the biggest bottle of liquor I can find and bring it to that giant Casino in Wisconsin and give it to the first indian I see.

Do you think that will make up for all my great great great great great great great grandparents evil deeds?

I love when white people are guilty it always sounds so genuine. It must be nice to have so much time and money that you can concentrate on things that happened between 300 and 500 years ago.

Yea must be nice.........

» RE: Bravo! Posted by: Carter
» RE: Bravo! Posted by: BILLYBOY
» RE: Bravo! Posted by: stoney13
» RE: Bravo! Yes! Posted by: harpy
» RE: Bravo! Posted by: kittynboi

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KJeffV
[Report this comment]
Posted by: KJeffV on Nov 23, 2005 11:02 AM   
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YES! It's about time some addressed the profoundly important issue of indigenous peoples' genoci . . . What? A turkey sandwich w/gravy? Hey, thanks!

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Totally effing hysterical!!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bettsoff on Nov 23, 2005 11:09 AM   
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I dunno about you guys, but tomorrow, I'm thinking of this thread and giving thanks for free speech.

Enjoy the day, or not, as your perogative.

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Look forward
[Report this comment]
Posted by: knoxharrington on Nov 23, 2005 11:31 AM   
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We can't put the horse back in the barn. Let's work for decent treatment of Native Americans now and not engage in a bunch of navel gazing about activities we neither chose nor participated in. I refuse to feel guilt for either slavery or the Native American situation - my great grandparents arrived from German and Scandinavia in the early 1900s and to my knowledge owned no slaves or put small pox on blankets (as apocryphal as that charge is). I, for one, will not be engaging in anything approaching morbidity on this holiday - I am either too self-actualized or not enough - either way, bring on the turkey!

» RE: Look forward Posted by: trace

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Jensen is fiddling while Rome burns
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Posted by: CrystalD on Nov 23, 2005 11:42 AM   
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Again, I note that Jensen's article has ignited a firestorm of mostly-hostile comments. I think many of the hostile commentors otherwise call themselves liberal or progressive.

Which is why, I think, progressives need to think in terms of the politics of the possible. They also need to think in terms of vital issues of here-and-now, and stop with the pumpkin-pie-in-the-sky.

How, exactly, is a "day of fasting and repentance" going to get health care to the millions of Americans - black, white, brown - who lack it? How is it going to help halt environmental destruction? What about jobs and the minimum wage? Alternatives to fossil fuel? These are bread-and-butter, here-and-now issues that are much more worthy of attention. Wouldn't addressing health care, the environment, and jobs benefit American Indians more in the here and now?

Jensen is, in my opinion, fiddling while Rome burns. I have respect for progressives like Barbara Ehrenreich, who focus on practical issues that affect most Americans and have solutions. Jensen, on the other hand, is typical of the worst kind of annoying pie-in-the-sky progressive. If I eat bread and water instead of turkey for Thanskgiving, is that going to get health care to the uninsured? Will bread and water replace oil? Will a "day of fasting and atonement" really DO anything?

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Hmmmm
[Report this comment]
Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Nov 23, 2005 11:59 AM   
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Thanksgiving commemorates a simple collective act of good will; should it be banned because of subsequent evil or because its original message has been muted by the easy comforts of modern life? For that matter, should the celebration of Christmas be banned because of all the atrocities commited by Christians over the centuries and the obliteration of its meaning by rampant commericalism? (The early New England Puritans (including one of my ancestors who came over on the Mayflower) actually DID ban the celebration of Christmas). Should my beloved Chanukah be banned because it commemorates a rather bloody military victory and may be considered by some as "anti-Greek" instead of a celebration of religious freedom???

Of course, my answer to all these questions would be a resounding NO!

What happened in the past is deeply regretable and, alas, cannot be undone; the question is; do we perpetually beat ourselves up over the moral shortcomings of our ancestors, or do we try to do better ourselves and build a better future for all?

I hate the rising tide of fascism I see in this country; I hate the d***ed war in Iraq with every fiber of my being; I despise Bush and the whole mess of sycophantic degenerates who now control our government. But I have to say that rhetoric like that used in the above article just gives these jerks more ammo for their bogus "liberals hate America" smokescreens.

If we're ever going to defeat these neo-fascist usurpers, we need to employ a more constructive rhetoric that doesn't turn average people off.

Happy Thanksgiving!

» Exactly! Posted by: CrystalD

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Remember this Thanksgiving to
[Report this comment]
Posted by: digitalbrownshirt on Nov 23, 2005 12:44 PM   
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Pass the turkey and pass the guilt.

» RE: emember this Thanksgiving to Posted by: JamesElliott

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Pretending Moral and Intellectual Superiority
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Posted by: bornavol on Nov 23, 2005 12:48 PM   
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More than anything this article is an attempt by the author to pretend to be morally superior and intellectually superior to the rest of us. Few things are more ego gratifying to (pretend to be) being superior in this way and look down one's nose at the heathens.

I suggest Mr. Jensen and his supporters give all their possessions and future earnings to the American Indians as all their gains are ill-gotten.

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What about the rest?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: cstriker on Nov 23, 2005 12:59 PM   
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I see all of you here commenting on the big turkey day, but there are only 4 comments on the article about Katrina victims and the Dec. 1 deadline.

I can see were your priorities lay.

» RE: What about the rest? Posted by: digitalbrownshirt
» RE: What about the rest? Posted by: cstriker

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Founding Fathers must have done something right....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: cstriker on Nov 23, 2005 1:24 PM   
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You have the freedom to publish your self-righteous garbage Jensen.

» That wasn't what he was saying. Posted by: Lone Pawn
» Lawn Pone Posted by: decembrist

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lp
[Report this comment]
Posted by: lpforti on Nov 23, 2005 2:14 PM   
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The same mythology of the early days of empire are certainly alive and well today. The underlying racism that we have never confronted in this nation is the engine that fuels the atrocities that we are seeing today: torture, war, unlawful detention, mis-information and all the rest of the ugly news we seem to be facing every day. It's no coincidence that most of the crimes that are being perpetrated are being perpetrated against "others." And because we have never truly reconciled ourselves with our past as a nation this just seems to be fine with most folks. Truth and reconciliation will come some day, but I'm sure that day will come the closer we get to "whites" no longer being the super majority they are today.

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Becky Gawboy
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bgawboy on Nov 23, 2005 2:18 PM   
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Thanks for a wonderful article. We are an American Indian family who have always cringed at the construction paper pilgrims and Indian headbands our kids brought home from school. The stories about the first Thanksgiving were offensive to us and to our history. We attempted always to explain that the story they heard was the european version of what really happened. This year we will begin a new tradtion. After our meal tomorrow we will tell the true story of what Indian people suffered and still suffer at the hadn of the european barbarian. We must speak truth to power

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Maybe this makes me a bad liberal...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: JamesElliott on Nov 23, 2005 2:21 PM   
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...but its things like this that make me want to punch my fellows in the face. It seems to me that liberals as a group have stopped addressing the real problems of racism in our society and instead use this sort of ex post facto reactionary racial guilt as a shortcut for real thinking. Maybe instead of feeling bad about our rotten history towards our American Indian brethren, we can embrace Thanksgiving as the one of the last times we actually got along? Maybe with an eye towards improving things so we can do so again? Instead of screaming "Repent!" we can remain hopeful.

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Getting over it!
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Posted by: cipp on Nov 23, 2005 2:26 PM   
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As a teacher of history, Jenson, should surely know that there were many atrocities that were committed throughout history. I've been fully aware of this mind set from some in academia that enjoys demonizing anything that is western. Like all human interaction there are good and there are bad aspects that had been contributed to the record of history. Today, Thanksgiving is observed as a time to appreciate the good things that are in our lives. So, lets just be thankful for those things in our lives that are beautiful.

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Give it up (pt. 1)
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Lone Pawn on Nov 23, 2005 3:03 PM   
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Oh, dear God. See, this is why people don't like liberals. Everyone's sitting around, gathering their families, offering heartfelt thanks for the blessings and love that God has granted them, and then some cold-hearted ranting PC-bot comes raving in, spits in the mashed potatoes, slaps Grandma and calls her a religious nut, kicks Grandpa in the face and calls him a racist, calls Dad a chauvinist and Mom a sex traitor, then tears the pets' collars off and "frees" them into the cold night, and then leaves, congratulating himself on another family enlightened.

It's like those damned "Free Tibet" bumper stickers. First of all, I doubt the driver knows a thing about pre-Chinese Tibetan society, nor do they know a thing about historic Sino-Tibetan relationships. Moreover, what are *they* doing? They aren't freeing any nations, they're driving their goddamned car. Same with Support Our Troops. The driver isn't supporting our troops, the driver is wasting gasoline and lecturing us.

Americans don't like to be lectured. Nobody does. Tell me, have you given back all your land to the nearest person of Indian descent you've found? (Yes, I will say Indian, because that's what the nearest tribe wishes to be called.) Have you given all your possessions to the nearest person of African-American descent, as their ancestors may well have paid for it in sweat? That computer...if it was an Apple, it was made by victims of imperialism in Suzhou, China. They made it under an unfair market system in which you could argue the fruits of their labors have been stolen by American transnats. Better hand it back.

But you won't, because you simply like to lecture.

Moving on.

Thanksgiving isn't about celebrating a genocide.

First of all, the "genocide" was by and large caused by smallpox and cholera, diseases for which the Indians had no immunity. Similar situation as in South America. I assume you knew that.

Secondly, at no point were the first Thanksgivings related to genocide; the "genocide" happened generations later.

Thirdly, the first modern Thanksgiving was declared by Abraham Lincoln as a day for solemn thanks to God for what the war had not yet taken from America.

» RE: Give it up (pt. 1) Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Give it up (pt. 1) Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Give it up (pt. 1) Posted by: bornavol
» Hey, now, I'm a liberal too Posted by: Lone Pawn
» RE: Give it up (pt. 1) Posted by: crusty
» RE: Give it up (pt. 1) Posted by: maxpayne

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Give it up (pt. 2)
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Lone Pawn on Nov 23, 2005 3:04 PM   
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I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

Do you see "And in celebration of the genocide of the Indians which we so rightfully extinguish so the supreme Aryan race may rule the globe with an iron fist anywhere?" No, no, not so much. The only links between U.S. - Indian relations and Thanksgiving are those you insist on seeing.

Yes, Thanksgiving was based on earlier Thanks-giving festivals. Harvest festivals. Which exist in every agricultural society.

Would you bitch at a black family celebrating Kwanzaa because it's based on a harvest festival, and Hutus stole land from Tutsis and vice versa--on which they then used to farm, and then harvest? Is this acceptable? Shall we hector a Jew at Passover, because God damn it, that was the start of the campaign that led to them stealing the Canaanites' land? And I better not hear a Frenchman celebrate Bastille day, because goddamn it, the land that prison was on belonged to the King, and they stole his land!

Do Italy, Germany, and Greece have to break into nation-states that nasty war and forced assimilation pulled together? Should we bemoan the Gallic wars that forged the modern-day France out of tribes of Gauls and Celts? Must Mexicans, Central, and South Americans by and large abandon the continent to only those who can claim fullblooded native lineage? Ought Australia and New Zealand throw themselves into the sea in shame?

» RE: Give it up (pt. 2) Posted by: bornavol

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Give it up (pt. 3)
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Lone Pawn on Nov 23, 2005 3:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Guess what? Massacres happen. All the time. Constantly. Nations are forged in genocide-assimilation campaigns. Always. That's why the world isn't merely a collection of tribes. That's why you make a living lecturing your students and then lecturing anyone masochistic enough to listen. Because nations were forged people by crushing other people, and societies were formed by people crushing other people, and finally, when there was nobody weak enough to crush easily, proclaiming peace, love, and friendship among each other.

Bad things happen. They're terrible. They're tragic. And then the world picks itself up and moves on.

But that's all beside the real point. Thanksgiving has nothing to do with junior-year US History class. It certainly has nothing to do with white supremacy or any other fantasies you might come up with. It has to do with families coming together. And if you have a problem with that, stuff it.

» RE: Give it up (pt. 3) Posted by: crusty
» enjoy your turkey, raving realist Posted by: decembrist
» I'll accept my prize, but Posted by: Lone Pawn

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Thanksgiving: a mixed bag
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Shakti on Nov 23, 2005 3:25 PM   
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It seems to me that there is both hypocrisy and beauty in the holiday of Thanksgiving. Every culture needs a time to feast and be grateful for a bountiful harvest. It seems to me that Thanksgiving serves that seasonal function, as well as setting aside time to gather as a family and reflect on the blessings we enjoy.

On the other hand, there is no question that the United States was formed after a period of genocide. What else can you call it? Was it the first time something like this ever happened in the world? No. Are Europeans the only people who wiped out other tribes to take their land? No. Am I personally (or my ancestors) culpable for what the colonists and later the army did to the Indian tribes? No. However, I do think that most Americans conveniently forget about the Indians. The fact is that these tribes of people, after living here for millennia, were invaded by Europeans who conquered them first with more effective weapons, then with new diseases, and finally with sheer numbers of settlers. The history is unequivocably sad.

Perhaps a better way to acknowledge the genocide and land-stealing would be to begin a movement on Thanksgiving to give money to charitable groups that assist Native Americans alive today, many of whom live in dire poverty on reservations. I think that Heifer International has a program to buy bison for Native American reservations, don't they? Maybe that would be an appropriate way to acknowledge the past, without wallowing in guilt and despair.

» Why does the past matter? Posted by: Lone Pawn

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God forbid Americans should stop their mindless consumption
[Report this comment]
Posted by: with ease on Nov 23, 2005 4:51 PM   
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for one day. I am amazed by the ire and guff that's being thrown around because one man asked us Americans to stop eating and reflect for one day.

It looks like people are up in arms, ready to shoot anyone who challenges their perceived right to gorge at will. I've been wondering for a while why, with so many thinking liberals around, the war on Iraq still exists. This discussion on Thanksgiving and the ensuing contemptuous greed that surfaces answers my question.

Thanks, guys, for exposing the sorry state we are in: a nation of hopelessly arrogant bastards enacting our God-given, patriotic right to consume.

» Exactly Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: xactly Posted by: crusty
» RE: xactly Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: xactly Posted by: crusty
» RE: xactly Posted by: maxpayne

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Wow.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: kittynboi on Nov 23, 2005 5:02 PM   
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People are pretty angry over this.

Well, thats all I have to say on this issue.

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Whilte Jenson is at it...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: tstrout on Nov 23, 2005 7:12 PM   
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What rubbish. Jenson should start another campaign: all Cro Magnon descendents should have a day of atonement for displacing the Neanderthal.

» RE: Whilte Jenson is at it... Posted by: maxpayne

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More American hatred?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Mike_Dugas on Nov 23, 2005 9:08 PM   
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I've just finished your article. Our country made many of the same mistakes as many other counties did and still do. Never was this more apparent than during its infancy. Yet hundreds of years later, you, a citizen of this great country, make great use of one of this lands greatest freedoms, to drag out old laundry and attempt to dirty Americas face once again. I see in your words hate for the country that has helped make you who you are. Would the Chinese version of freedom of speech allow you to spew such malevolence in the press about such things? Why is there neither forgiveness nor understanding in your heart for events that occurred so far in the past? History AND current events show the huge changes this country has made in these areas. You are just another America hater who it seems would feel if the US didn't have such success or such power and influence that things would be better. You should stop for a minute and realize that if not for our country's success your articles might only find print in underground news letters dashed out as you constantly hide from the State Police. Yes things might truly have been better.....for Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Bin Laden and Saddam.

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I'm a white supremacist for celebrating thanksgiving? Sue me.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: eocilian on Nov 23, 2005 9:26 PM   
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Name me one group of people numberring over 1000 which is completely free from it's share of criminals (discluding "1000 non-criminals"...) and I'll mourn the instance when settlers and natives first cooperated. Otherwise go wallow in despair somewhere, which shouldn't be too difficult.

» Ignorance? Try again. Posted by: Lone Pawn
» RE: Ignorance? Try again. Posted by: maxpayne
» God's kicking my ass? Posted by: Lone Pawn
» RE: God's kicking my ass? Posted by: Mike_Dugas
» RE: God's kicking my ass? Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: God's kicking my ass? Posted by: Mike_Dugas
» RE: God's kicking my ass? Posted by: maxpayne

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Bringing in European Immigrants
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Posted by: mortarthegovernment on Nov 23, 2005 9:43 PM   
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Could a reason for this have been to bring in people that didn't speak english or may not be aware of history etc. so we could tell them our history in our language? I mean, most Americans are ignorant and some choose to remain ignorant of our history. It seems like it would make sense to me. Anyone have any thoughts?

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Maybe we need to work together to take back this country from the right
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ShaSpirit on Nov 23, 2005 11:24 PM   
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There is so much anger, sadness and pain in these replies. If we want a country that we can celebrate with different traditions for any holiday, then we better work together to get the constitution back and take back congress and put these damned people in jail for treason. Spirituality is not something the Christian right understands. American's spirit is sick and dying one little piece at a time, so it will not matter what we think, since we will not be able to express it soon.

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No turkey for you!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rozann on Nov 24, 2005 12:56 PM   
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We should also bemoan the Anglos conquering the Saxons, the fall of the the Roman Empire to the Barbarians, and when the temple was desecrated. Lets not forget the slaves. Sheesh, history is filled with the stronger conquering the weaker, get over it, already!

» ** Posted by: decembrist
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So what do we do?...Imagine a Thanksgiving....
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Nov 24, 2005 1:22 PM   
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Us Witches know that this holiday did not originate in America...but was an ancient pagan Harvest Fastival, giving thanks to Mother Earth, as was in fact, Christmas.

For myself, I am thankful for the words of wisdom of Thomas Jefferson, and wish more American people learn the truth that much of the Constitution and Bill of Rights were taken from the governing laws of the Irroquois Nation.

I wish an America that lives up to her dreams of truth and justice for all...and hope for a better future for my children. And all children.

Practically speaking, this means do what I can, politically and envionmentally. And that there is a Tofu Turkey cooking in my oven today.

May the Good Earth bless you all.

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Turkey Time!
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Posted by: Maltboy! on Nov 24, 2005 5:44 PM   
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I have no control over what happened 200 years ago, nor would I assume to truly understand the motivations and mindset of a people whose reality was so different than ours. Each and every day for these people was a fight for survival. Nature and the Native Americans were relentless and unforgiving. One misstep could mean disaster, and death was always knocking. It was a barbaric time for sure, but that’s the way it was – survival of the fittest. But, from the comfort of his easy chair in an air-conditioned office, Mr. Jensen has the audacity to assume he has the moral authority and divine insight to know these peoples’ motivations were simply to advance the white race. This is pure anal seepage, straight from the source. Jensen, who ironically is a shameless lackey for the race he so hates, hands his judgment down based on the values of an arrogant fool who has never faced the kind of real adversity these people lived on a continuous basis. Since he claims he has a duty to expose exploitation of oppressed people, I look forward to his editorial pieces pointing out the hypocrisy we promote through our teachings on Kwanzaa
http://www.martinlutherking.org/kwanzaa.html
the Crusades
http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm , and slavery
http://home.ddc.net/ygg/ot/ot-07.htm .
What is obvious about his intentions is that he is less interested about promoting truth than making sure he keeps the blood of hatred flowing – it’s the only way a parasite like Mr. Jensen knows how to get fed.

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By the way, Robert Jenson is a Texan so let's give him a chance.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 24, 2005 5:54 PM   
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Maybe what he wrote isn't perfect but at least he got all you Jenson bashers to reflect on the true meaning of Thanksgiving. It is true that our country wouldn't be having "Thanksgiving Day" if it were not for the genocide and barbaric mass murdering of the Native Americans which has done nothing more than tarnish the country's name ever since it was founded. For this kind of ungrateful bashing of Jenson for telling the truth no matter how ugly it may be for most of us to digest, it is no wonder that GOD is punishing America at large by turning most of the American people into self-deluded hate-mongers. Oh, and "Happy Thanksgiving" or what's left of it.

» RE: It's only the Left... Posted by: theglob
» RE: It's only the Left... Posted by: Mike_Dugas
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Good points, Robert
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Posted by: Michelle on Nov 24, 2005 11:41 PM   
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Not only is the thought of such a change in this white-supremacist holiday impossible to imagine, but the very mention of the idea sends most Americans into apoplectic fits -- which speaks volumes about our historical hypocrisy and its relation to the contemporary politics of empire in the United States.

If you change the word "Americans" to the phrase "white people in the United States" I would wholeheartedly agree, based on my own experiences with telling other white people that I do not celebrate the holiday, and a short piece about why if they ask.

Their energy gets insane very quickly. Even the ones whose energy is marshmallow calm on the surface -- whoa! they are freaking out and it shows. Disrupts the mythos something fierce. Which I find a little odd, since it always seems like a disproportionate reaction to me. But I am starting to understand how deep this all runs, this ritual of the lie.

But I should also mention that my partner has found a different pattern in her workplace, a call center, where most of the workers she talks to are people of color. Her co-workers haven't freaked out like that, in her experience of discussing this with them when the subject comes up.

These are just our experiences.

» RE: Good points, Robert Posted by: kittynboi
» Let's Talk Anout Insane Energy Posted by: Maltboy!

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Jenson / How ideology and hatred make you say dumb things
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Posted by: oppo on Nov 25, 2005 12:10 AM   
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Read any and all of Jenson and one thing is clear: It's all our fault. Pick any problem, anytime, anyplace and the U.S. and/ or western world is at fault.

All of Jenson's writing assumes that without the awful U.S. the world would be at total peace. As for Thanksgiving, we should make no apologies. We did conquer a new continent and the native people within. That is what all people did at this time in history. All over the globe it was the rule that the strong conquered the weak. He uses today's values to judge those who had no notion of recent history.

To better understand how truly silly a man can be while sounding smart, imagine a world without the U.S. Would the Nazi's have been stopped? Would Japen have continued the rape of Asia? Would communism have been put, as was foretold, in the dustbin of history? Would there be more or fewer free people?

The U.S. was and is the most important Democracy. How many democratic nations would there be without us? You might not like many parts of our system but do take note how free we all are even as Jenson is supported at a public institution teaching young people how to hate their country without even a pinch of appreciation.

Jenson is an apologist for our enemies as he is blind to their deficiencies and magnifies ours. Like a spoiled boy Jenson is mad we haven't made the world perfect.

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man
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Posted by: mark on Nov 25, 2005 11:11 AM   
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this is ridiculous

» The people bashing Jenson, yes Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: man Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: man Posted by: mark
» RE: man Posted by: kittynboi

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Other holidays to cancel and for strong reasons nobody can deny
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 25, 2005 11:52 AM   
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Valentine's Day - One day of fake love followed by punching each other's lips the next day otherwise this country wouldn't be the laughing stock of higher divorce rates and we wouldn't be having Jerry Springer to be kicking around with. And voters wouldn't be so overly obsessed with hating gays and lesbians.

Independence Day - Our Constitution is already being shredded and we're living on borrowed money, outsourcing of everything to other countries, and "free trade" deficits from other countries so this day might as well be a joke. We wouldn't be needing an "Independence Day" if this country had any true independence.

Memorial Day - Our leaders have learned nothing from the Vietnam war or we wouldn't be having the two Iraq wars to begin with. And I'm sure that this country will be mired with more wars to come with no lessons to learn.

Other holidays. I'll think about it and post if I think they're worthy of cancellation.

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Jenson reminds me of what needs to be done to make up for this mess.
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Posted by: NDnative on Nov 25, 2005 12:37 PM   
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Up here in the northern plains especially here in North Dakota, racism from subtle to blatently violent attacks on native Indians is rampant though not as much as it used to be now that we've suffered enough by having voted for politicians, especially the GOP, who do nothing they claim to promise though lip talk and service. I'll be showing my gratitude to people, regardless of race, who've helped me learn to make the most of my life up here in the prairies. Peace.

P.S.: And if you want to laugh at me as a "kiss and make up" to red Indians loser, go right ahead. Even Jenson knows that there are good Americans who feel bad about being a culture that grew on hate, especially slavery and racism, and that will continue to suffer as a result of it.

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Thanking an Indian Leader
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Posted by: SDres11 on Nov 25, 2005 12:46 PM   
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Thanking an Indian Leader
by Mary Annette Pember


If you don't like Jenson's article, please read this article for a change.

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I guess we can never be guilty enough
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Posted by: bobbo45 on Nov 25, 2005 2:55 PM   
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But that doesn't stop Jenson from continuing to use all the 'stolen' percs that he has accrued as a member of the 'oppressive' society.

Looks like Ward Churchill's replacement is already onstage.

Although Thanksgiving had been a truly movable feast prior to the Civil War, as thanksgivings had been set by previous presidents on an as-needed basis, Lincoln set the last Thursday in November, 1863, as a thanksgiving for Union victories at Gettysburg and Vicksburg the previous summer, and as the end of the war might be in view and a peaceful reconstitution of the United Staes might begin. Thus, it has been so celebrated every year since.

Forget the Pilgrims, the Indians, and just give thanks to whom/whatever for yet another year of life.

Or not. I don't care whether someone wants to be a Grinch.

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Okay, I'm sorry,
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Posted by: Lone Pawn on Nov 25, 2005 8:54 PM   
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I now realize you're playing with us. I'm sorry I took you seriously, man. I'm so embarassed. You got me. I was always a sucker for trolls.

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For a complicated story
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Posted by: mim on Nov 25, 2005 9:57 PM   
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Ayatrollah is right. Genocide and slavery aren't the whole story; the Founding Fathers really had a "deep wisdom" that set in place a political order based on checks and balances, representative government, guarantees of civil liberties, orderly transfer of power, and an enormous capacity for self-correction that has been able to spread the blessings of liberty more broadly than the Founders originally imagined. That this experiment may turn out to be a failure in the end is our national tragedy.

This is what Robert Jensen ignores. And that's why his talk about complicating America's story rings hollow. His version of history is as one-sided as the version he's arguing against.

For the record, Robert Jensen is a professor of journalism. Robert Jenson is a Lutheran theologian.

» RE: For a complicated story Posted by: maxpayne

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We Can't Change the Past
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Posted by: bambic on Nov 26, 2005 10:13 PM   
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Back in 1620, my fourteenth great-grandfather came to this country as an indentured servant (white slave) to the captain of the Mayflower, Stephen Hopkins.
He was all of 20 years old, knew how to read and write and from what I have researched, simply wanted to get the hell out of jolly old England. He ended up becoming a "freeman" and later had slaves of his own.
My point is simply this: can any of us help who we descended from?
Love and peace to all.

» RE: We Can't Change the Past Posted by: maxpayne
Alternet Comments:

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Great article!
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Posted by: churchofone on Nov 23, 2005 2:46 AM   
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Thanks for writing about what is usually "unmentionable" - the mass slaughter of the indigenous people.

"The ends are inherent in the means"

» RE: why don't you read some true Histroy Posted by: pro-conservatism
» RE: why don't you read some true Histroy Posted by: pro-conservatism
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» RE: Open your eyes Posted by: dylansstp

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How about a compromise?
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Posted by: Samantha Vimes on Nov 23, 2005 2:57 AM   
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Teach complexities. Put energy into true atonement, not symbolic. And let people treasure the good while regretting the bad.

I want to see the indigenous people of the US treated with respect-- no more turning a blind eye to embezzlements of funds meant to help ease poverty. Bring small business loans to reservations. Make their schools the envy of other districts.

When pagents celebrate the first Thanksgiving, let them acknowlege that kindness is sometimes rewarded by cruelty.

But don't expect children to fast and to wail for deaths they had no part in.

History is meant to be learned from. No one is celebrating the later violence, rather the initial generosity of spirit. Let us celebrate Thanksgiving by being generous, and remembering our need for others generousity.

Those who want atonement, and those who want to look at a frozen snapshot of idealism, both need to see that there's worth in each other's point of view.

» RE: How about a compromise? Posted by: bettsoff
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there is no reason....
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Posted by: crusty on Nov 23, 2005 4:18 AM   
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Why the individual cannot feel such remorse for earlier events. I have no problem with that. Howev3er I believe that Thanksgiving is about giving thanks for the blessings that have been bestowed upon us in life. Sharing a day with family or friends and refledcting upon our blessings no matter how slight they are is good and healthy. I do think we should do this every day but ..... Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday.... the food .. the family... and friends and new aquaintences getting together and celebrating life.
I understand the undertones of the first thanksgiving , but I and none of my relatives had anything to do with the genocide. Both sides of my family have some genocide perpertrated upon thier relatives and while unspoken have always taught us to give thanks for what you have. SO like I said at the begining of my post ...... It is fully in your rights to have a day of remorse, but to give up thanksgiving in my eyes is not neccessary. Ah well thats my story and I m stickin to it.

» RE: there is no reason.... Posted by: crachlis
» RE: there is no reason.... Posted by: Basenjis
» Whose to say he doesn't? Posted by: Lone Pawn
» RE: Whose to say he doesn't? Posted by: maxpayne

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There are nuances
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Posted by: xiaogao on Nov 23, 2005 4:53 AM   
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OK, what we are really talking about here is Thanksgiving's uses as a propaganda tool in the teaching of children, right? Before having children, I would have agreed with the author wholeheartedly. Since becoming a parent, I've thought more about the issue from a young child's perspective, and come to slightly different conclusions.

The first thing I ever learned about Indians was the Thanksgiving story. At age five, in the early 1970s, this story taught me to believe that they were resourceful, noble, and benevolent, and for years I believed that Indians were generally superior to white people (in fact, I dreamed of being an Indian for years). Later, I WAS taught about the horrors that had been visited upon Indians, and if anything those early myths made that story even more devastating. When, in college, I saw a documentary about uranium mining on Indian land, I don't recall being resistant to its anti-imperialism on the grounds that some Indians and Englishmen had shared a friendly meal 350 years ago.

I grew up celebrating Thanksgiving in the traditional way. So did virtually everyone I knew (and so, I imagine, did the author). And yet, somehow, I (and most of my friends and relatives) managed to arrive at the same conclusions about the evils of American empire. What children take away from the Thanksgiving story is that here is an instance in which people of one culture were generous to people of another culture; that traditional, non-white societies have skill and knowledge that is valuable and important; that early Americans needed help and were not omnipotent. It is not a xenophobic myth -- it is a tale that's profoundly generous in spirit.

I can guarantee that teaching a six year-old this positive lesson -- and gradually introducing the darker truths as she gains the ability to actually make sense of them -- will be far more effective in producing future lefties than browbeating her with images of genocide and starving her all day.

» RE: There are nuances Posted by: mmc2195
» RE: There are nuances Posted by: Jeff G

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What's the point?
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Posted by: mmike87 on Nov 23, 2005 5:21 AM   
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Sure, it's important that we recognize history as it truly happened. However, I am tired of people applying today's morality to the events of 300 years ago. It's a silly exercise and is totally meaningless.

Anyone who thinks that if they had lived 300 years ago that they for certain would live, act, and think the same way they do now has their head in the sand. It's very likely that any one of us could have been on the forefront of the "Crush the Indians" movement. Who knows?

The fact is that regardless of how things went down in colonial America - none of us would likely exist had events not occured as they did. I am certainly not going to apologize for my existance.

I'm part American Indian. But you don't see me crying over the past. Two cultures collided and the strongest culture won. That's nature's way. Always has been, always will be.

Get over it.

» RE: What's the point? Posted by: john52
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Genocide and slavery
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Posted by: wbblack on Nov 23, 2005 5:44 AM   
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Genocide and slavery are the economic “ Plymouth Rock” of the U.S economy. Throw in the indentured servitude of some Europeans and you have the essence of what the U.S. is all about. This crap about great white men who did great white deeds to build a great white world sickens and enrages me. I had to unlearn all this stuff to come to some understanding of why it seemed that such a small number of untalented parasites had so much and the rest of us had squat. I blamed myself and my family. False history does great, emotional, economic and spiritual damage to us all. The U.S is the greatest terrorist nation on the planet. It’s the most racist country in the world and with the possible exception of the years when the Nazis controlled Germany, it is probably the most racist nation or empire in recorded history. The genocide of Native peoples on this continent was a dispicable act done by despicable people. The enslavement of Africans fascism, most foul.

» RE: Genocide and slavery Posted by: john52
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A Caricature of Itself
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Posted by: Grumpy Old Man on Nov 23, 2005 5:46 AM   
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On reading this article, I first surmised that it was an attempt at satire -- a caricature of a victimologist, politically correct academic. As they say, if he didn't exist, we would have to invent him.

But I think the author takes himself seriously. So sad.

The picture he paints of the interaction between Europeans and Indians is highly oversimplified. The main factor in the decline of the Indian population was epidemics of European diseases, to which the Indian population had little resistance.

Not to suggest there's nothing embarassing in our history or our conduct with the Indians -- who also were not innocent victims.

The hysterical breast-beating hatred of his own people that the author presents is, however, bizarre. I am thankful that he is free to publish this nonsense, although not necessarily that the taxpayers of Texas get to subsidize him. And I wonder if he's ever met an Indian, as opposed to congratulating himself on how virtuous his attitude is.

» RE: A Caricature of Itself Posted by: lterhune
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Don't replace; add
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Posted by: Jim on Nov 23, 2005 6:11 AM   
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As one who homeschools my children, with Zinn's People's History of the United States as our main history text, I agree that a National Day of Atonement is a valuable idea.

My family does not observe Indepence Day, Memorial Day, or Veterans Day. But I agree with xiaogao that there are valuable lessons in the traditional Thanksgiving myth.

For my, my family, and my church, Thanksgiving is not a time to celebrate that myth, but for giving thanks. There is much evil in this world to fight and to atone for, but there is much good to be thankful for too. A time to give thanks for all that is so good is an important balance to always focusing on the bad.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

» RE: Don't replace; add Posted by: jpramelis

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A Historical note to all the above posters
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Posted by: sausage on Nov 23, 2005 6:13 AM   
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It seems that Adolph Hitler admired white America's treatment of Indians.
"Hitler's concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination - by starvation and uneven combat - of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity." P. 202, "Adolph Hitler" by John Toland

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I can relate
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Posted by: Dave04 on Nov 23, 2005 6:13 AM   
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I've attempted to discuss the issue of Columbus Day and Thanksgiving in my classes and found that students, even then ones who usually say nothing, will speak up and claim that it would be a tragedy to do away with either. Then I ask: What if you were a Native American? How would you feel about Thanksgiving then? The usually admit they wouldn't like it, but will take no further leap in thought. No one is saying that people shouldn't get together with their family, but people shouldn't need a national holiday for that.

» RE: I can relate Posted by: Tantor

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Thanksgiving
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Posted by: nubian on Nov 23, 2005 6:15 AM   
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The Pilgrims came here in peace, to find a new way of life. The indians did not "own" the land. They were more or less nomads, moving about from place to place. If powerful or numerous enough, they simply massacred any person or group who occupied land they wanted. They hunted an area empty, then moved on. That was their "ecology." When the Pilgrims came, they were eventually attacked by the indians, as soon as the indians figured out they were vulnerable. The Pilgrims and early settlers fought back, and finally had to nearly annihilate these warlike, violent groups. We are facing a situation with Islam which is in some ways similar. Unless we annihilate Islamofascism, we, or what is left of "us," will eventually be governed by them. Then we'll see how many dissenting blogs like Alternet will be permitted.

I wonder if the editors of this Blog will find this content "innappropriate" because it doesn't share the prevailing local delusions.

The image of the indians as peaceful nature loving people is a fraud. They were mostly warlike killers who lived by the sword, who came here in the first place by violently displacing whoever was here before them.

» RE: Thanksgiving Posted by: jefhadist
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» I'm Indian Posted by: Carter
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Give Thanksing...
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Posted by: jefhadist on Nov 23, 2005 6:17 AM   
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Is is possible to atone for acts of genocide committed before your birth with any meaningful result? Are the "sins of the fathers" currently being visited down to the seventh generation? Have we forgot to teach our children the whole truth and nothing but the truth ... just to spare them pain? I remember being shocked and awakened into another understanding when my Native American Studies professor, Sarah Hutchison at UCD described her fasting on Thanksgiving every year. Her family would gorge but she would refrain from food to re-member, to help put back into focus the awful truths of the "Trail of Tears," genocide, forced sterilizations, boarding schools, loss of spirituality/languages and all the documented and undocumented abuse that continues to this day. And isn't that the point? IT CONTINUES even to this day in various and nefarious ways. That's what we should be thankful for. That we can still do something about it....to heal this land and the relationships among all creation.

» RE: Give Thanksing... Posted by: kittynboi
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» RE: Give Thanksing... Posted by: jefhadist

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History and Hysteria
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Posted by: wilburnwilliams on Nov 23, 2005 6:19 AM   
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Everyone who wades in on the annual debate about Thanksgiving should be required to brush up on a little history before logging onto their PC's. According to Charles C. Mann's exhilarating and enlightening new book "1491," 90-112 million people, more than in Europe and one-fifth of the world population total, lived in the Americas when Columbus arrived. A century and a half later, they numbered 10-12 million.

This is the greatest demographic catastrophe in history, dwarfing the Black Death. And this tidal wave of mortality generated another tragedy: the slave trade brought millions of my people from Africa to replace the Indians who died. Smallpox probably was the main culprit, and the vast majority of indigenous Americans who perished did so, peace to Brother Jensen, long before the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock, or Plymouth Rock landed on the Pequots.

The bitter truth is that, given the immunological profile of Native Americans and the diseases they confronted, the greatest demographic disaster in history was probably unavoidable. Europeans, only a little less so than Indians, were ignorant of the causes of the havoc Europe's invasion wrought. It is easy to forget that Robert Koch's germ theory of disease was formulated only 130 years ago. Vaccination was introduced in the West only in 1796, long after the smallpox devil had done its work on Native Americans.

But as Mann points out in his sophisticated discussion of this and other sensitive issues in his fine book, ignorance of germ theory may alleviate the guilt of Europeans, but it does not relieve them of their responsibility for the massive destruction of New World people and the consequences that flowed in its wake, consequences which we have the power to ameliorate today. It is unfortunate that the deeply informed and subtly nuanced intelligence that shapes Mann's reading of this tragic history will be little in evidence, either on the airwaves or in cyberspace, this holiday weekend. Before the annual orgy of sadistic recrimination and masochistic self-flagellation begins, however, I hope that readers of this message will take time to read Mann's book. Failing that, they should read William H. McNeill's penetrating review of "1491" in the December 1, 2005 issue of "The New York Review of Books," available in bookstores, libraries and homes where civil discussion of complex tragedies is prized.

Happy Thanksgiving!

» RE: History and Hysteria Posted by: nubian
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» RE: History and Hysteria Posted by: wilburnwilliams
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Let Us Give Thanks
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Posted by: Lulu Gee on Nov 23, 2005 6:27 AM   
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While I appreciate Robert Jensen's effort to quicken our consciousness of the genocide committed by european invaders on this continent and the need for acts of atonement, I do not agree that Thanksgiving should be forsaken and used as that day of atonement. One reason being that our conception of the thanksgiving of the pirgrim-invaders is mythical, in that is is cut off from its roots (perhaps pre-christian) in England.
When I lived in England, I was surpirsed to find that the Church of England also celebrates Thanksgiving. It is connected to the harvest and is, perhaps, the only sincere ritual left in Christendom; but that may be because it predates the arrival of chiritianity in England.
As practiced in England, it is the only time of the year where people simply give thanks for what they have and refrain from asking for more or dwelling on their own shortcomings. It is a beautiful ritual where parishioners bring to the alter, fruits of the harvest as offerings and sing the praises of life on planet earth.
Giving thanks without thought of the enormity of our sins (indivudual or communal) is humbling as it returns us toward our dependence on so many elements (mineral, vegetable, animal) of life in our environments.
Yes I know we have gotten very far away from that sense of the holiday, but I think that we need to have days of thanksgiving as well as days of atonement and Thanksgiving can help us bring back awareness of ourselves as connected to one another through our dependance on earthly bounty.

» Then leave the turkey alone Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Let Us Give Thanks Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: Let Us Give Thanks Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Let Us Give Thanks Posted by: ShaSpirit

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HFV
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Posted by: HFV on Nov 23, 2005 6:27 AM   
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I, too, thought this might be an attempt at satire. Not so.

Ponder this: What if this country had not been invaded by Bible thumpimg European white men? What would have been the fate of the indigenous peoples? What examples can we look to today of an indigenous people who have survived intact?
China? Not a pretty story there

Parts of northern South America? Not a good example I suppose because they exist only under the security umbrellla of the US.

Parts of central Africa? I think I would prefer to have taken my chances in China.

Frankly, the indigenous tribes of North America, in spite of their indisputable suffering, have fared better than any indigenous people I can think of. So the European white faced Bible thumpers created a society that, although not perfect (and nothing is perfect), eventually accomodated the indigenous tribes better than any other society on earth.

» RE: HFV Posted by: nubian
» RE: HFV Posted by: HFV
» RE: HFV Posted by: cstriker
» RE: HFV Posted by: sls1982
» RE: HFV Posted by: HFV
» your joking Posted by: decembrist

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Take a moment and look around....
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Posted by: bettsoff on Nov 23, 2005 6:31 AM   
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It's very interesting to read the many different interpretations of the Pilgrim-Invader/Indian-Native interactions. History is in the eye of the beholder.

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agitator church and state
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Posted by: eileenflmng on Nov 23, 2005 6:35 AM   
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The Indigenous HOPI People Offer the USA the DECLARATION OF PEACE
Which begins:

"It is in the Power of the True Hopi People to unify the minds and spirits of all true peace seeking peoples of the earth..."Hopi" means "Peaceful People"... and the truest and greatest power is the strength of Peace...because Peace is the Will Of The Great Spirit..."

In 2001 we began The United Nations International Decade of Creating a Culture of Peace and Nonviolence for the Children of The World.

This Christmas Morning at First Light will be the first [annual?] Interfaith Bethlehem to Jerusalem Prayer Circle and Peace Walk for All the Children of The World

We walkers come from all faiths and are united with the Spiritual Wisdom of the:
"True Hopi People who know how to show to all the world's Children the True Way of Life by setting an example...by working and communicating in a way that reaches the minds and hearts of all people who are truly seeking the methods of a simple and spiritual Life which is the only Life that will survive...

read more on WAWA:
www.wearewideawake.org

» RE: agitator church and state Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: agitator church and state Posted by: cstriker

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Thanksgiving is for giving thanks
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Posted by: artytheonemanparty on Nov 23, 2005 6:57 AM   
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How could you continue to live in such a country?

If I believed as you do, I would have emmigrated.

Any chance I could convince you to do so?

Are you compelled to stay in a country founded by people you accuse of genocide? By staying and enjoying the benefits of their genocide are you not an accomplice after the fact?

I know you don't believe what you claim. If you were sincere, you would give any land you own to the descendants of native Americans and move away.

The only atonement I commemorate is the solemn atonement of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world.

This Thanksgiving, I will be shooting my assault weapons, enjoying a delicious meal, visiting my loved-ones, and saying prayers of thanks to my Father in heaven for the blessings of liberty.

May the Lord bless and keep you...far away from me.

Arty

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No thanks--to articles like yours
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Posted by: Kristy on Nov 23, 2005 7:37 AM   
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Feel free to atone, sad white-guilt purveyors. Fast, give away your land, moan, groan, and weep and cry. Get it out, get over Gore's loss and Kerry's loss, and your loss. If you hate this country sooo much, leave it. Sure, you are free to whine all you want but it's a real downer for the rest of us. I have native American blood coming from all directions in my family and my husband does as well. My grandfather was 1/2 Cherokee and my grandmother was descended from Seminoles. I HAVE cried over what was done in the US hundreds of years ago. But it has happened all over the globe for tens of thousands of years--is everyone to atone? How far back shall we go? Shall HUNgarians atone for what Attila the Hun did? What about Arab terrorists--should they atone for what they did yesterday? I shudder to think that anyone is teaching this class A junk to our children. The world has good and the world has evil. Move on.

» Get your history right!!! Posted by: brunowe

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Who owes who?
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Posted by: g.quinn on Nov 23, 2005 7:40 AM   
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The people who invaded North America from Asia, and who now proclaim themselves “indigenous,” owe attonement for fate they inflicted on the Clovis. And we all owe attonement to the Neanderthal. The only indigenous people are Africans. Everyone else is a migrant.

» RE: Who owes who? Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: Who owes who? Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: Who owes whom? Posted by: g.quinn

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Yes, giving thanks "I am not like others" is perverse
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Posted by: Sojourner on Nov 23, 2005 7:51 AM   
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But gratitude can be a genuine expression of humility and acceptance.

The genocide of indigenous peoples in the so-called New World shows how deep the roots of warfare go for those of us whose ancestors came from Europe. That native peoples could not understand the ferocity of the invaders except as insanity is well documented. The waves of slavery imposed on the people have left all of us marked.

However, I am not aware that anyone seriously denies that history. It would be well if we acknowledged it along with our self-celebrations. But the real issue is the extent to which we perpetuate our self-serving exploitation.

Ask Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro or the third world countries that we dominate economically. The irony of the Iraq War is that our failure there has distracted us and given Central and South America a bit of breathing room to find their own way.

Isn't always a question whether you look at the cloud or the silver lining?

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In My Humble Opinion...
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Posted by: cstriker on Nov 23, 2005 7:51 AM   
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the author is somewhat deluded. Much of what he says about the history around Thanksgiving is true. However, he seems to lack an understanding of the purpose of the holiday. For some it may have involved genocide, but for most Thanksgiving is simply a day of giving thanks for a bountiful harvest or just for being alive.

I am part Cherokee (I think it was my great-great grandfather), and the rest is European. But does it really matter at this point in history. Oh, I do think the genocide that occurred in the Americas is abhorrent, but that has nothing to do with my idea of Thanksgiving. You want to attone for the failings of people past, great! Personally, I feel that we should be looking forward. We succeed together as a society or we fail together as individuals.

Failure to remember history does doom us to repeat it. Instead of doing away with a holiday that is designed for giving thanks of life, bounty, or anything else why don't we just work on teaching the truth of history (world wide) and continue giving thanks? What does Thanksgiving mean to you? Are you aware of the genocidal history of the world?

History or not, we still have to live together. And frankly, I am still thankful to have family, friends, a roof, and the like. So why shouldn't I be able to celebrate that?

Besides, how do you attone for the history of the dead? Isn't the ideal just to work towards everyone being fed, clothed, and having health care? This author is doing good by trying to express truth, but I think he used a very poor approach.

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memetic
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Posted by: jpinder on Nov 23, 2005 7:56 AM   
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I feel thanksgiving is no longer about a historical event, it’s more like a family reunion day, no one really sits at the table and talk or even think of pilgrims.

I wish they would stop the tradition of turkey eating, too many of these animals are killed but not consumed.

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Happy Thanksgiving
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Posted by: DFrost on Nov 23, 2005 7:56 AM   
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People came to this country seeking religious freedom. Ultimately, they found it. No, they weren't perfect (no more, I suppose, than those they displaced), but they had grit and determination, and, ultimately, they succeeded, leaving us heirs to the greatest and most powerful nation that has ever existed. More than that, they have left us heirs to a belief in justice that, bluster and hype aside, the author of this article tries to express. Eschew their errors, drone on about their shortcomings, lionize those they vanquished, but never forget their greatness.

Happy Thanksgiving to all, and God bless America!

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spread the word
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Posted by: pony on Nov 23, 2005 7:59 AM   
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word of mouth and general consensus can replace miseducation. most people i know repeat what they hear, not what they were taught. it's all education. just be sure to use a non-threatening tone, that would put someone's belief structure on the defense. it's gonna take time, but spread the word. boycott traditional fake patriotic holidays!

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thank you!
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Posted by: jheydtne on Nov 23, 2005 8:09 AM   
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As a ninth grade American History teacher in a public school which is located in a very politically conservative (How conservative? Well, over the protests of teachers and students our school district celebrates Columbus Day . . . but does not celebrate Martin Luther King's birthday!) area of the United States . . . I want to thank you for your article! I will certainly use it as part of my let's-get-an-honest-perspective curriculum.

» RE: thank you! Posted by: Tantor
» RE: thank you! Posted by: maxpayne

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same old stuff, different day
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Posted by: native woman on Nov 23, 2005 8:16 AM   
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I am a Native woman, and have listened to White America's defensive Master Narrative all my life. Notice I do not say that I am (a) part Native American, (b) part Cherokee and part something else, or (c) an American. I am a citizen of my Indigenous Nation, and find those commentors who referred to themselves as "part Native American" or "part Cherokee (or any other tribe)" and whose message was basically "Get Over It," quite offensive. Offensive because you are obviously ignorant about your Native blood and culture, because if you had grown up in your Native culture you would never refer to yourselves as "part Native American" or anything else. You would identify with your Indigenous Nation, and you would never say "Get Over It," when referring to the intergenerational holocaust perpetuated on Native peoples in this country.

I'm not surprised at the majority of messages generated by this article: most Americans are not ready to really look in the mirror and get honest about was has been done, and what continues to be done, to the people whose homelands you are in. So you deny, obfuscate, lie, call names, demean and even glory in your government's genocidal history. Go ahead - it doesn't make Native people look bad when you do that - you only make yourselves look bad. And a final note to the person who said we migrated here like everyone else: you don't know what you're talking about. But I do: I am a member of an Indigenous culture that is thousands and thousands of years old, and I know exactly where my people emerged from, and it was right here in our homelands, and not from some place far away and over the waters, like you. Get over it.

» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: digitalbrownshirt
» cold piece of shit Posted by: decembrist
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: native woman
» RE: Amen! My Native Sister! Posted by: ladywhosmokes
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: native woman
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: ladywhosmokes
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: same old stuff, different day Posted by: SLCandy2005

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white europeans have no monopoly on genocide
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Nov 23, 2005 8:25 AM   
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Human beings have practiced genocide since time immemorial. Neither the Native American genocide nor the Shoah of the Nazis is unique.

At his first inaugural, Abraham Lincoln appealed to the "better angels of our nature." Man always has the choice to do the right thing, but as genocide after genocide demonstrates man often chooses evil instead.

My wife's father was a refugee from the Armenian genocide of 1915. Before I met him, I had never heard of this awful event in high school history class either.

Just a few of many historic genocides:
Bronze age Greeks eliminate Minoans.
Israelites subdue land of Canaan after leaving Egypt, killing Canaaninte men, women, children, animals.
Romans eliminate citizens of Carthage.
Irish (Scotti in Latin) eliminate Picts in present-day Scotland, displace them.
Pol Pot kills millions of his fellow Cambodians, especially educated, middle-class Cambodians.
Mao kills millions during Cultural Revolution of 1967
Stalin starves millions of Ukranian farmers to death, under slogan "down with the Kulaks as a class."

War is an elaborate form of theft. Only the victors breed. If you are alive today, somebody in your family tree was a murderer.

You are responsible for doing the right thing today. The past is gone. All you can do is learn from the mistakes of the past, and avoid repeating them.

And don't forget the "better angels of your nature."

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Why America Is A Great Country
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Posted by: mohican on Nov 23, 2005 8:27 AM   
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After reading your guilt-ridden message, the one question that comes to my mind professor is, why are you still here?

If the United States is a country as despicable as you describe, then I for one would pack up and head to a place with a more palatable history.

Perhaps the UK, but then you have that nasty British Empire period to deal with. France, no it had an empire as well, not to mention Napoleon. Germany is out, Russia too I suppose. China had several dynasties, Japan has always been pretty warlike, even Sweden once ruled most of northern Europe and did lots of nasty stuff I bet. Canada, I suppose not since they also pushed their Indians out to build Toronto and Montreal, Mexico is in the same boat. You cannot even go and live with an Indian tribe on their reservation because before North America was colonized those tribes spent their spare time slaughtering each other.

Gee when you come to think of it all of human history is built on one culture dominating another. Is what happened right, no. We treated the Indians terribly, but that cannot be reversed. Converting a holiday that depicts one of the few instances where the colonists and natives got along, at least for a brief period, should not be reworked to fit into your self-abusive ideal.

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Wow just when I thought I could enjoy Thanksgiving
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Posted by: digitalbrownshirt on Nov 23, 2005 8:35 AM   
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Thanks for shedding light on how horrible I am. I will now join the "guity white male" brigade and vote for Barack Obama in 2008 to confront my past sins. He is part cherokee right?

I don't know what he stands for, but he speaks so well and is tall.

» You're a real card! Posted by: sausage
» RE: Last insult I'll trade with you, fool Posted by: digitalbrownshirt

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creativity
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Posted by: gemelabuena on Nov 23, 2005 8:37 AM   
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why is the left's solution always to abolish things? why can't we instead transform, add, be creative? thanksgiving is just a harvest feast, such as agricultural societies worldwide have celebrated for thousands of years. it didn't come into being on plymouth rock. should the fact that people have committed atrocities mean that we never celebrate the wonder of being fed by the earth? i'm all for a day of atonement (possibly on columbus day, which in my mind has a lot more to do with the genocide of indigenous people than a harvest feast does), and i'm all for telling the truth about how, after indigenous people saved europeans from starvation the europeans turned around and slaughtered them. i'm also all for focusing as much attention as possible on the CURRENT oppression of indigenous people, which is widespread and severe. if the focus is on changing the situation of indigenous people today, and it should be, then we should be a lot more concerned about bringing more people from the mainstream on board to build the political will to make these changes happen. telling people in the mainstream that in order to fit into your moral high ground club they have to stop celebrating one of the most wondrous things there is - the harvest - is not going to win them over.

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The revisionist history part of this article...
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Posted by: Ricki on Nov 23, 2005 8:40 AM   
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... is so true. My husband and I are historical re-enactors. We teach history by being characters in the Rev. war time period. We have been at events where history is totally sanitized to avoid "offending" people, i.e., no mention made of atrocities perpetuated by BOTH white and native. In conversations I have had with public, when such things are mentioned, and they SHOULD be, they are a real part of history, some would not believe such things, and would be very upset. Native peoples tortured. Native peoples as well as whites practiced slavery. Native peoples warred on neighboring tribes. On the whole, they were not the peace loving living in harmony stereotype often perpetuated today. The whites of that time were products of their supremacist, sexist culture. Looking at European history, and the causes of the immigrations to America and the differences in cultures, particulary in clashing cultural views on land usage, what happened was inevitable. Yes, we should be sorry for atrocities on both sides. But more importantly WE SHOULD NOT SANITIZE HISTORY. WE SHOULD NOT MAKE IT POLITICALLY CORRECT. WE SHOULD TEACH IT WARTS AND ALL. And a lot of it is ugly. To me, that is how you atone for past atrocities, because with that knowledge that is how we learn to be better than what was before. So that we can evolve into more peaceful, loving, accepting peoples. As for the holiday itself, I feel that it should be a time for thanks for what we have, and prayers for those who do not have as much. It seems like for most folks the holiday is pretty divorced from the history.

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America's Sins and Virtues
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Posted by: justsalt on Nov 23, 2005 8:57 AM   
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America's sins, and they are many, are the same sins one finds throughout history among all peoples, including Native Americans. These include racism, genocide of competing peoples and slavery. Through out history, on all continents you find these. They are terrible. It is very necessary for all of us humans to acknowledge these in our culture's past and beware of them now.

America's virtues are her own and have blessed the whole world. Among these I would include large-scale representative government, freedom of religion, the dignity and rights of the individual. These (and others) are the culmination of the long Western tradition of thought and belief that started with the Jews and the Greeks and developed through Christianity and the Elightenment. These ideas were brought to fruition here in the US and due to that working example have spread throughout the whole world.

Without these virtues articles like the above would never be written, since racism, genocide, slavery and the like would still be accepted as facts of life through out the world.

That is what I am going to celebrate on Thanksgiving.

» RE: America's Sins and Virtues Posted by: justsalt
» RE: America's Sins and Virtues Posted by: Basenjis

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Lets blame someone
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Posted by: digitalbrownshirt on Nov 23, 2005 9:06 AM   
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OK, so Columbus was Italian sent by the Spanish. England had its share too.

Spain was conquered by Arab moslems and many Spanish have Arab/Moslem blood in them. Italy was once conquered by Ethopians giving them some African blood. England was conquered by Anglo Saxon and Norman tribes who hail from the Vikings who also conquered parts of Russia in which they continued to migrate through Alaska and on down into present day Canada and Norhwest America. The Spanish (and their Arab/Moslem blood) conquered present day S.America who have mixed with indigenous tribes creating present day Latin America and Mexico who in turn migrated North to East LA, driving out many whites to Oklahoma causing other indigenous peoples to move and open casinos in Minnesota. Don't forget the APACHES, Mormons, Quakers, Hells Angels, Crips, Bloods, Barbara Striesand, AIDS and the rainforest.

Oh I'm soooooo confused. Who should we blame????

» RE: Lets blame someone Posted by: Erin
» RE: Lets blame someone Posted by: digitalbrownshirt
» RE: Lets blame someone Posted by: churchofone

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It is time to CANCEL Thankgiving Day
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 23, 2005 9:11 AM   
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After all, there's no gratitude in this country and until we Americans learn to discipline ourselves and each other, "Thanksgiving Day" will continue to be a big joke just like "Independence Day" where we say we're an independent nation and yet we're living off borrowed money from other countries.

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If it was that easy...
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Posted by: bonapartist on Nov 23, 2005 9:12 AM   
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...it would be great.

I would just like to say that, as a holder of a degree in history, avoid overall generalization in either direction. It seems that two extremes these days consist of “great and benevolent white men bringing civilization to Americas” versus “the noble natives living in near utopian circumstances until massacred by brutal invaders”.

Sorry but history is far more complex then that and the best interpretation of the truth is somewhere in between.

Hernan Cortes, for example, was so ridden by guilt for what he did against Aztecs that he petitioned the Spanish crown, in essence asking it to protect the natives. The Aztecs practiced human sacrifices and probably ritual cannibalism, when Spaniards arrived they find a lot of willing native allies who believed that nothing is worse then Aztec overlordship. Spain was also one of the first countries, in XVI century, that enacted laws protecting the native population to some extent but those laws were often ignored in the colonies. And so it goes on, and on, and on… There is no simple black and white interpretation that can hold water.

Also I am against settling the historical scores because, if for no other reason, where do they end?

From the practical considerations I would suggest that Thanksgiving incorporates both the celebration and five minutes of mourning for the past.

» RE: If it was that easy... Posted by: churchofone
» RE: If it was that easy... Posted by: bonapartist

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Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred
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Posted by: Webimpulse on Nov 23, 2005 9:18 AM   
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Yes, like the poster with the handle Native Woman has stated, I too have a hard time coming to grips with this nation's past. In fact, so much so, that being a white male American citizen has given me much cause for self-loathing, depression, and suicidal thoughts.

Yes, I have thought of suicide as a method of atonement for my sins. And yes, I know that I do need to atone. I know that I am the beneficiary of genocide, and that by partaking in it, I am showing my support. But due to the hardships I face in life, as someone with Asperger Syndrome, a panic disorder, and chronic depression, the only way I can cope with my everyday life is by partaking in such affluence, an affluence I know painfully well came from the blood of other ancestors who weren't mine. And because of such a dependency, and where it comes from, I keep coming to the same conclusion - that ending my own life is the only way I can properly atone. Hell, I can't even fast because of my Type II Diabetes and how fasting would aversely affect my health. So, why not prevent myself from eating all food and kill myself?

Yeah, yeah, I know people not my same skin color and citizenry suffer far more than I do. But there's been one thought that's keeping me alive, and writing this comment today: I didn't ask to be born a white male American citizen. I didn't ask to be a descendant of a genocidal, terrorist people, or ask to partake in their affluence. If there is a God, I want to punch Him out, like Hartigan wanted to do in Sin City. I hate Him for making me born white. I'm truly convinced he is an evil God for what he made me born as. It just isn't fair.

Which brings me to this question: to Native Woman, Polyquats, and all others who know the rent I have to pay - how the hell am I supposed to do it without resorting to suicide? How am I supposed to keep happy, healthy, sane, and enjoying life without partaking in the sins of my ancestors? Please tell me. My life is on the line.

I know there are those of you who will take what I've written here and twist it to say that people like Native Woman or Polyquats, or the original author, are wrong, and use my post as proof that they hold "terrorist" ideology, and say Thanksgiving is great and good and that the US is a great moral nation. To those people: don't bother. I will not have my suffering be used as a tool for oppression.

» RE: Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred Posted by: digitalbrownshirt
» RE: Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred Posted by: Webimpulse
» RE: Thanksgiving and Self-Hatred Posted by: SLCandy2005

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This is one reason why progressives fail to reach people
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Posted by: CrystalD on Nov 23, 2005 9:25 AM   
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I see by the comments that Jensen's article has made a lot of people very defensive and angry. And I thought - this is one of the failures of the progressive movement. Nine times out of ten, proggies come off like sanctimonious killjoys - the stereotype of the "Shush!" librarian or the kid who narced on you to the teacher for passing notes in class. This isn't exactly calculated to win friends and influence people.

The message that American Indians might not be exactly thrilled by the concept of Thanksgiving, plus the very real fact that the Founding Fathers had (to say the least) feet of clay, was overshadowed by "Atone! Fast! Bow your heads! Have no fun!" Now who wants to hear that? And, predictably, most of the responses here have been more or less "Thanksgiving rules. Go jump in the lake, Jensen."

Meanwhile, a few commentors here have brought up the sensible and culture-neutral idea of a harvest festival of gratitude and family togetherness instead of a "Thanksgiving." I agree with these posters. There is nothing wrong with family togetherness, giving thanks and, yes, feasting and indulgence. Prune-lipped "progressives" ought to focus on the positive and quit suggesting hair shirts for all.

Linguist George Lakoff is famous for his talk of "framing" and language in "Don't Think Of An Elephant" and various articles. Progressives need to start thinking of framing in their own messages so they don't turn off the people they need to reach the most, nor marginalize themselves in public discourse. Progressives can't afford to play the Friday turds at a Saturday market - which is what Jensen is doing in this article. He needs to reframe.

» You don't like progressive Posted by: Lone Pawn

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Charlie Brown moment
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Posted by: pcarroll on Nov 23, 2005 9:28 AM   
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You know the bit, where all you hear is "Wah wah wah wah, wah wah, wah wah wah wah wah."

Same reaction to this.

I'm not up for the self-flagellation. I'm not up for the guilt. I'm not up for the self-loathing.

I live in the country which is the zenith of white European achievement, and I'm lovin' it.

Pass the turkey.

» RE: Charlie Brown moment Posted by: cstriker
» RE: Charlie Brown moment Posted by: trace
» RE: Charlie Brown moment Posted by: cstriker

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Censure Donald Rumsfeld!!!!!!!!!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: digitalbrownshirt on Nov 23, 2005 9:30 AM   
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Oh, sorry....I thought this was moveon.org

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Two Americas!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: digitalbrownshirt on Nov 23, 2005 9:35 AM   
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So, how does this fit in with John Edward's Two Americas speech? Does this mean there are like 2 1/2 or 3 or 4 Americas?

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I'll probably be sorry I brought this up. . . . .
[Report this comment]
Posted by: NthnBrazil on Nov 23, 2005 9:39 AM   
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I realize this brings a whole new level into this debate, but the idea of atonement to indigenous peoples & reparations are very close in concept, so I can't help but think of them together.

Being the descendant of post-civil war Ellis Island immigrants, I have always felt sort of ambivalent about the idea of atonement/reparations. Sounds like a nice idea in theory, but exactly who atones and how? If I trace my lineage back and my family has only been American for about 85 years, what is my share of it? How is this rationalized?

In the specific case of reparations for slavery, if we go the corporation route to try and punish who profited the most, what stops the pain from being felt further down the chain? If some insurance company that insured slaves needs to pay big bucks, and they do some cut-backs and lay-off people, won't that quite possibly affect even some children of slaves as well? Does that invalidate the concept or is it supposed to balance out by the benefit that person should receive? What about recent immigrants who took no part in the system but lose their jobs without any payout coming back from the settlement? Why should they be punished?

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OH THE HUMANITY
[Report this comment]
Posted by: cstriker on Nov 23, 2005 9:47 AM   
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Have you read all the posts here today? Have you seen the abuse that everyone is heaping out. It is out of hand. Can't anyone debate without abusing one another anymore?

We are human and as such we are the same. Many of you have accused people of so many things here today and it is truely disturbing that you cannot see the bigger picture.

History from all sides (weeners and losers) is a necessity. It teaches about mistakes and helps us learn how we can make things better for the present. So many of you don't seem to have learned from the mistakes caused by dividing along religious lines or cultural devides. Please people grow up. While so many in this world have so little and (if you are posting here) you have so much, you think it is acceptible to argue symantics?

I'm disgusted and if I could withdraw from humanity after reading your responses today, I would.

» RE: OH THE HUMANITY Posted by: kittynboi

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Screw the Founding Fathers...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ayatrollah on Nov 23, 2005 9:47 AM   
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How dare they create a country where men like Robert Jensen can freely critique and criticize those in power? How dare they draft a constitution that limits and divides the powers of the government, gives the people the free will to rule themselves and the power to peacefully remove those they do not agree with through the ballot box, oh the horror. It’s sad that men like Robert Jensen, those that love this country so much and are so ashamed of it that they must live outside our boarders in foreign lands with all the freedoms that we no longer have here, taken away by Bush Hitler. Men with principle and honor that they would not have to live with the shame the US represents by living on its shores and receiving one iota of its “freedoms”. No Blood for Freedom, I always say! Such a man of conviction is Robert Jensen. Some day Robert will be able to return to our shores when we have apologized to each and every single person still living from the days of oppression starting when Leif Erickson first colonized this blighted land with savages with white skin.

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I am thankful
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Posted by: emkkahn on Nov 23, 2005 10:12 AM   
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I am very thankful that I have "evolved" past the thinking of what I call the "pityers" and can now see some of their own "myths" with open eyes.
First there's the "Peaceful primitives" myth. People have been warring since the first time a humanoid picked up a stick or a bone and learned that he could kill someone else to get his way. There has never been a time in human history since then when humans haven't been killing each other. "Native" Americans did a lot of killing amongst themselves long before the Europeans got here. Why no condemnation of the tribe killing tribe action? Or is it only whites who's killing is "immoral"?
Then there's the "It could all have been avoided myth". The "discovery" of the Americas by Europeans was inevitable. The clash of civilizations was inevitable and the fact that the civilization with the higher level of technology would win the clash was inevitable. And so what? A culture dies? That happens all the time with or without war. Just look at what's happening in Paris these days. There's a culture that's going down the drain.
And finally there's the "Indigenous People" myth. All humans are immigrants to this continent if you go back far enough. Also, every person born on this continent is just as "native" to it. I was born here just as much as a descendent of a Navajo was. I'm sure the author would never call the Siberians crossing the Berring land bride thousands of years ago "invaders", but then again it's only white people who seem to have the capacity of doing "evil".
To sit around and feel guilty for situations that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago is a waste of your time. To loath yourself for being a descendent of people who did things that today would be unacceptable is to waste your life away. And this whole idea of judging ancient peoples against what is acceptable in modern culture is ridiculous.

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You still have to tell the truth
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Nov 23, 2005 10:28 AM   
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As much as we'd like to sweep this Govt's treatment of the American Indian under the rug, it's just too big a 'pile' to hide.
I say 'this Govt' because the folks that eventually became the govt were the rich of their day and just like now,they put their own into power.
The extermination policy of the Govt towards the Indians has been in full swing since 1492. Forced sterilization had been the pratice on the Plains Indians up until the 1970's.
Why? They kicked Custer's ass. The Boy General was a liar and spy for the Govt and got what a Liar's supposed to get.
He was my uncle too but that does'nt change the fact he was
an enemy of the People.
Mt. Rushmore is more a celebration of Genocidal Maniacs then a monument to heroism. Every face up there is as much charlaton as statesman.
My family got here just after the Revolutionary War. By the time I came along my family lines new both slave owners and Indian killers. But there were also those whom married Indians and blacks so I have a whole lot of everyone in my genes. I could'nt be more proud or apologetic. I'm thankful for BOTH lines of my history. One taught me the ways of the Tyrant,the other the ways of spirit and family.
Yes BOTH the Pilgrims and the Puritans slaughtered Indians
to save their people. Perhaps if they'd 'asked' instead of
'taken' this would truly be a time of 'Thanksgiving'. Had the Europeans come as Friends instead of Conquerers we could rejoice in our meeting eachother.
As for me, I'm thankful in the old way. Thankful for the air,the waters, the Earth to walk on, the fish,the animals,plants,trees and people. I am also thankful that more Tyrants and their lapdogs die in their sleep every day than could be killed in any war.
But we must always tell the truth about history. Not just to stave off a 1984 style of history keeping,but to keep us from the hell of repeating it. To want it any other way makes you
part of the problem.

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ward_off_monkey
[Report this comment]
Posted by: dt's on Nov 23, 2005 10:43 AM   
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you sound like such a sad, angry person...

» RE: ward_off_monkey Posted by: kittynboi

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Glad I Slept Through History
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Posted by: Joe on Nov 23, 2005 10:49 AM   
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Thanksgiving is one of the reasons I'm glad I slept through history. Over 90% of what is presented as "American History" is bullshit. You have a president who wipes his ass with the constitution. Over 90% of America "Freedom" is bullshit. You had Christians who used religion to justify the murder of the original inhabitants of this land. Over 90% of religion is bullshit. Morals are bullshit, because people pick and choose when they apply. I have more respect for drug dealers -- at least they are honest

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Interesting Smithsonian article on this very topic: guaranteed to annoy everyone!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: AdamSelene11726 on Nov 23, 2005 10:49 AM   
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Ever wonder why "Squanto" spoke such good English and why the Wampanoag confederation wanted to befriend the Plymouth colony?

Fascinating stuff. See:

http://www.
smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/
issues05/dec05/indians.html

When you consider that the Smithsonian Magazine represents this enormous pool of scholarly talent, walking a very fine line between celebrating our cherished icons and promulgating revisionist history ... the December issue (all of which is online BTB) present both Thanksgiving and Charles Darwin

http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian
/issues05/dec05/darwin.html

a very different light than you might expect.

Read them if you dare.

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What reasonable perspective this essay has, the Progressive movement deserves like success.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: tdperk on Nov 23, 2005 10:59 AM   
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You write:

"How does a country deal with the fact that some of its most revered historical figures had certain moral values and political views virtually identical to Nazis?"

Recognize that these cherrypicked quotes do not reflect the sum of their feelings. Neither do they reflect the outcome of their actions, which is that if they intended genocide in a manner virtually identical to the one the Nazi's intended they failed miserably--please note the significance of the fact if they had intended genocide, they likely would have accomplished it.

You might, if you want to write progressively, show more perspective for those who in their day did more that was progressive than any who have lived since. From then until now and for the foreseeable future they ended the rule of royalty, that reasonably demands much be forgiven.

The worst that could be reasonably said is the worst of their views were no worse than was common in the day among humanity worldwide and the best of their views were so much better than was common that we should have a day thanksgiving set aside merely to celebrate the effect they did have on human history.

Until we have such a day, the fourth Thursday in November will do.

And all of this is beside the fact the "genocide" was largely done about as soon as the first person from Eurasia set foot on either coast and sneezed, whatever was in their hearts.

Yours, Tom Perkins, molon labe, montani semper liberi, & para fides paternae patria

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Recent Indian history & thanksgiving
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Posted by: Carter on Nov 23, 2005 11:01 AM   
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Recently I was asked why I fight against America's foreign wars and speak against them so often. The reason lies in the recent history of my people, I'm a Ponca. My history, like many ndns, is so much different than other Americans that they can not understand where I'm coming from... so here's where I'm coming from; I oppose the war on Iraq and I am proof that the American excuse of benevolence is condemned by the life of my own small Nation. We too became the target of American "benevolence". It has lasted three generations with no end in sight and like most acts of genocidal magnitude it was/is and always will be, based in greed.

In the late 1870's the Americans decided their treaties with our Nation were mere paper so they sent their army to round up my Grandfather, my Grandmother and all the rest of my relations from the land guaranteed to them forever and made them walk to a concentration camp on the Quapaw rez, close to Baxter Springs, Kansas. Nine died on the walk, all were sickened heart and soul. We stayed there for three years and one third of my family, my clan and my Tribe died before they made us buy another reservation and told us it was ours to live on forever. My Great Grandfather led his family in a great struggle for survival, holding them together as those we had long befriended turned viciously upon us and drove us from our homelands. My Great Grandmother carried four rocks from our homeland on the Niobara all the way to where I stand today, it was all she could save of the circle of life they were leaving. continued...

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Bravo!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: BILLYBOY on Nov 23, 2005 11:02 AM   
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Finally someone has said it!

Hats off to you for your progessive thinking. I find it just heartbreaking what happened to those poor drunken indians.

How they have suffered at our hands! We really are terrible people. Gosh America is really horrible. I never really thought about how bad we are as a nation until I was enlightened by your article.

Well this year I will make amends I am going to buy the biggest bottle of liquor I can find and bring it to that giant Casino in Wisconsin and give it to the first indian I see.

Do you think that will make up for all my great great great great great great great grandparents evil deeds?

I love when white people are guilty it always sounds so genuine. It must be nice to have so much time and money that you can concentrate on things that happened between 300 and 500 years ago.

Yea must be nice.........

» RE: Bravo! Posted by: Carter
» RE: Bravo! Posted by: BILLYBOY
» RE: Bravo! Posted by: stoney13
» RE: Bravo! Yes! Posted by: harpy
» RE: Bravo! Posted by: kittynboi

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KJeffV
[Report this comment]
Posted by: KJeffV on Nov 23, 2005 11:02 AM   
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YES! It's about time some addressed the profoundly important issue of indigenous peoples' genoci . . . What? A turkey sandwich w/gravy? Hey, thanks!

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Totally effing hysterical!!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bettsoff on Nov 23, 2005 11:09 AM   
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I dunno about you guys, but tomorrow, I'm thinking of this thread and giving thanks for free speech.

Enjoy the day, or not, as your perogative.

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Look forward
[Report this comment]
Posted by: knoxharrington on Nov 23, 2005 11:31 AM   
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We can't put the horse back in the barn. Let's work for decent treatment of Native Americans now and not engage in a bunch of navel gazing about activities we neither chose nor participated in. I refuse to feel guilt for either slavery or the Native American situation - my great grandparents arrived from German and Scandinavia in the early 1900s and to my knowledge owned no slaves or put small pox on blankets (as apocryphal as that charge is). I, for one, will not be engaging in anything approaching morbidity on this holiday - I am either too self-actualized or not enough - either way, bring on the turkey!

» RE: Look forward Posted by: trace

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Jensen is fiddling while Rome burns
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Posted by: CrystalD on Nov 23, 2005 11:42 AM   
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Again, I note that Jensen's article has ignited a firestorm of mostly-hostile comments. I think many of the hostile commentors otherwise call themselves liberal or progressive.

Which is why, I think, progressives need to think in terms of the politics of the possible. They also need to think in terms of vital issues of here-and-now, and stop with the pumpkin-pie-in-the-sky.

How, exactly, is a "day of fasting and repentance" going to get health care to the millions of Americans - black, white, brown - who lack it? How is it going to help halt environmental destruction? What about jobs and the minimum wage? Alternatives to fossil fuel? These are bread-and-butter, here-and-now issues that are much more worthy of attention. Wouldn't addressing health care, the environment, and jobs benefit American Indians more in the here and now?

Jensen is, in my opinion, fiddling while Rome burns. I have respect for progressives like Barbara Ehrenreich, who focus on practical issues that affect most Americans and have solutions. Jensen, on the other hand, is typical of the worst kind of annoying pie-in-the-sky progressive. If I eat bread and water instead of turkey for Thanskgiving, is that going to get health care to the uninsured? Will bread and water replace oil? Will a "day of fasting and atonement" really DO anything?

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Hmmmm
[Report this comment]
Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Nov 23, 2005 11:59 AM   
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Thanksgiving commemorates a simple collective act of good will; should it be banned because of subsequent evil or because its original message has been muted by the easy comforts of modern life? For that matter, should the celebration of Christmas be banned because of all the atrocities commited by Christians over the centuries and the obliteration of its meaning by rampant commericalism? (The early New England Puritans (including one of my ancestors who came over on the Mayflower) actually DID ban the celebration of Christmas). Should my beloved Chanukah be banned because it commemorates a rather bloody military victory and may be considered by some as "anti-Greek" instead of a celebration of religious freedom???

Of course, my answer to all these questions would be a resounding NO!

What happened in the past is deeply regretable and, alas, cannot be undone; the question is; do we perpetually beat ourselves up over the moral shortcomings of our ancestors, or do we try to do better ourselves and build a better future for all?

I hate the rising tide of fascism I see in this country; I hate the d***ed war in Iraq with every fiber of my being; I despise Bush and the whole mess of sycophantic degenerates who now control our government. But I have to say that rhetoric like that used in the above article just gives these jerks more ammo for their bogus "liberals hate America" smokescreens.

If we're ever going to defeat these neo-fascist usurpers, we need to employ a more constructive rhetoric that doesn't turn average people off.

Happy Thanksgiving!

» Exactly! Posted by: CrystalD

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Remember this Thanksgiving to
[Report this comment]
Posted by: digitalbrownshirt on Nov 23, 2005 12:44 PM   
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Pass the turkey and pass the guilt.

» RE: emember this Thanksgiving to Posted by: JamesElliott

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Pretending Moral and Intellectual Superiority
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Posted by: bornavol on Nov 23, 2005 12:48 PM   
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More than anything this article is an attempt by the author to pretend to be morally superior and intellectually superior to the rest of us. Few things are more ego gratifying to (pretend to be) being superior in this way and look down one's nose at the heathens.

I suggest Mr. Jensen and his supporters give all their possessions and future earnings to the American Indians as all their gains are ill-gotten.

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What about the rest?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: cstriker on Nov 23, 2005 12:59 PM   
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I see all of you here commenting on the big turkey day, but there are only 4 comments on the article about Katrina victims and the Dec. 1 deadline.

I can see were your priorities lay.

» RE: What about the rest? Posted by: digitalbrownshirt
» RE: What about the rest? Posted by: cstriker

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Founding Fathers must have done something right....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: cstriker on Nov 23, 2005 1:24 PM   
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You have the freedom to publish your self-righteous garbage Jensen.

» That wasn't what he was saying. Posted by: Lone Pawn
» Lawn Pone Posted by: decembrist

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lp
[Report this comment]
Posted by: lpforti on Nov 23, 2005 2:14 PM   
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The same mythology of the early days of empire are certainly alive and well today. The underlying racism that we have never confronted in this nation is the engine that fuels the atrocities that we are seeing today: torture, war, unlawful detention, mis-information and all the rest of the ugly news we seem to be facing every day. It's no coincidence that most of the crimes that are being perpetrated are being perpetrated against "others." And because we have never truly reconciled ourselves with our past as a nation this just seems to be fine with most folks. Truth and reconciliation will come some day, but I'm sure that day will come the closer we get to "whites" no longer being the super majority they are today.

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Becky Gawboy
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bgawboy on Nov 23, 2005 2:18 PM   
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Thanks for a wonderful article. We are an American Indian family who have always cringed at the construction paper pilgrims and Indian headbands our kids brought home from school. The stories about the first Thanksgiving were offensive to us and to our history. We attempted always to explain that the story they heard was the european version of what really happened. This year we will begin a new tradtion. After our meal tomorrow we will tell the true story of what Indian people suffered and still suffer at the hadn of the european barbarian. We must speak truth to power

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Maybe this makes me a bad liberal...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: JamesElliott on Nov 23, 2005 2:21 PM   
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...but its things like this that make me want to punch my fellows in the face. It seems to me that liberals as a group have stopped addressing the real problems of racism in our society and instead use this sort of ex post facto reactionary racial guilt as a shortcut for real thinking. Maybe instead of feeling bad about our rotten history towards our American Indian brethren, we can embrace Thanksgiving as the one of the last times we actually got along? Maybe with an eye towards improving things so we can do so again? Instead of screaming "Repent!" we can remain hopeful.

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Getting over it!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: cipp on Nov 23, 2005 2:26 PM   
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As a teacher of history, Jenson, should surely know that there were many atrocities that were committed throughout history. I've been fully aware of this mind set from some in academia that enjoys demonizing anything that is western. Like all human interaction there are good and there are bad aspects that had been contributed to the record of history. Today, Thanksgiving is observed as a time to appreciate the good things that are in our lives. So, lets just be thankful for those things in our lives that are beautiful.

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Give it up (pt. 1)
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Lone Pawn on Nov 23, 2005 3:03 PM   
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Oh, dear God. See, this is why people don't like liberals. Everyone's sitting around, gathering their families, offering heartfelt thanks for the blessings and love that God has granted them, and then some cold-hearted ranting PC-bot comes raving in, spits in the mashed potatoes, slaps Grandma and calls her a religious nut, kicks Grandpa in the face and calls him a racist, calls Dad a chauvinist and Mom a sex traitor, then tears the pets' collars off and "frees" them into the cold night, and then leaves, congratulating himself on another family enlightened.

It's like those damned "Free Tibet" bumper stickers. First of all, I doubt the driver knows a thing about pre-Chinese Tibetan society, nor do they know a thing about historic Sino-Tibetan relationships. Moreover, what are *they* doing? They aren't freeing any nations, they're driving their goddamned car. Same with Support Our Troops. The driver isn't supporting our troops, the driver is wasting gasoline and lecturing us.

Americans don't like to be lectured. Nobody does. Tell me, have you given back all your land to the nearest person of Indian descent you've found? (Yes, I will say Indian, because that's what the nearest tribe wishes to be called.) Have you given all your possessions to the nearest person of African-American descent, as their ancestors may well have paid for it in sweat? That computer...if it was an Apple, it was made by victims of imperialism in Suzhou, China. They made it under an unfair market system in which you could argue the fruits of their labors have been stolen by American transnats. Better hand it back.

But you won't, because you simply like to lecture.

Moving on.

Thanksgiving isn't about celebrating a genocide.

First of all, the "genocide" was by and large caused by smallpox and cholera, diseases for which the Indians had no immunity. Similar situation as in South America. I assume you knew that.

Secondly, at no point were the first Thanksgivings related to genocide; the "genocide" happened generations later.

Thirdly, the first modern Thanksgiving was declared by Abraham Lincoln as a day for solemn thanks to God for what the war had not yet taken from America.

» RE: Give it up (pt. 1) Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Give it up (pt. 1) Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Give it up (pt. 1) Posted by: bornavol
» Hey, now, I'm a liberal too Posted by: Lone Pawn
» RE: Give it up (pt. 1) Posted by: crusty
» RE: Give it up (pt. 1) Posted by: maxpayne

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Give it up (pt. 2)
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Lone Pawn on Nov 23, 2005 3:04 PM   
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I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

Do you see "And in celebration of the genocide of the Indians which we so rightfully extinguish so the supreme Aryan race may rule the globe with an iron fist anywhere?" No, no, not so much. The only links between U.S. - Indian relations and Thanksgiving are those you insist on seeing.

Yes, Thanksgiving was based on earlier Thanks-giving festivals. Harvest festivals. Which exist in every agricultural society.

Would you bitch at a black family celebrating Kwanzaa because it's based on a harvest festival, and Hutus stole land from Tutsis and vice versa--on which they then used to farm, and then harvest? Is this acceptable? Shall we hector a Jew at Passover, because God damn it, that was the start of the campaign that led to them stealing the Canaanites' land? And I better not hear a Frenchman celebrate Bastille day, bec