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Jesus, Meet Evolution

By Bryan Collinsworth, Campus Progress. Posted November 21, 2005.


Despite recent rants from fundamentalist leaders, it's okay for Christians to believe in Darwin.

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[Editor's Note: This interview was originally published on Campus Progress.]

It used to be that if you wanted to provoke the wrath of God, you had to do something really horrific, like enslave an entire race of people to build your pyramids.

These days, though, you just have to vote for the wrong school board candidate. At least that's televangelist Pat Robertson's take on the ousting of eight Dover, Pennsylvania school board members who had mandated the teaching of intelligent design in local science classrooms.

"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected Him from your city," Robertson warned on the November 9 broadcast of his televised insanity (also known as The 700 Club). "And don't wonder why He hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I'm not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city."

Of course, even many conservative Christians dismiss Robertson as a shamelessly immoral fraud (though the White House apparently does not). His tirade, however, was only the latest in a series of attacks on the religiosity of those Doverites who dared oppose teaching intelligent design as science. During the campaign even neighbors accused the challengers for school board of being un-Christian, anti-God, and in bed with the dreaded ACLU, terrorists, and pedophiles.

There's only one problem: Most of the newly elected board members are people of sincere and devout faith. Of the four Republicans and four Democrats (although they all ran on the Democratic ticket), at least two hold leadership positions in local churches, and even the group's stance on intelligent design can't be construed as anti-religious: They simply assert that since the concept is more about faith than science, it is more properly broached in religion and humanities courses.

For the countless Americans who comfortably balance belief and science every day, the discovery of Christian evolutionists in Dover won't raise any eyebrows. But it will strike many others as a rare contradiction. This is understandable: Conservative Christian leaders have been working for twenty years to reshape the American lexicon and popular consciousness until the word "Christian" refers not to a broad range of self-professed--and often progressive--followers of Jesus Christ, but solely to right-wing fundamentalists like themselves.

These efforts, however, cannot mask the reality that it is perfectly possible to be a good Christian and embrace evolution at the same time.

How? The simplest explanation is that science answers "how" questions while faith answers "why" questions, and never the twain shall meet. Unfortunately, it's not always that easy: Faith often embraces and builds upon certain assumptions about how the universe works, and science often digs beneath those assumptions, seeking to unlock the secrets of what many consider the divine.

Evolution is a case in point: For certain Christian traditions, science's contention that all life on Earth developed through millions of years of mutations clearly invalidates their assertions that everything originated exactly the way it's described in Genesis.

This might not be so bad, except that that "how" creation story is intimately tied to the "why" of these believers' faith. For very conservative and fundamentalist Christian traditions, a literal reading of Genesis sets up many of the religious concepts and morals they hold dear: that men and women were created for biological partnership with distinct gender roles, say, or that our ancestors' eating of forbidden fruit makes all humans sinners, with salvation available only through Jesus Christ.

Moreover, this approach to the creation story is the first expression of a central tenet of fundamentalist faith: that the Bible is the literal and infallible word of God, and that as such it offers clear, unquestionable lessons for how we should live our lives. After interpreting Genesis in this way, conservative Christians proceed all the way through Exodus and Leviticus to the Book of Revelation, constructing their entire edifice of theology and morality from a narrow reading of carefully selected passages.

An admission that things in the beginning were not so cut-and-dry, then, wouldn't just undermine the creation story and its religious lessons; it could cast doubt on the entire concept of scriptural authority and the uncompromising moral code that religious conservatives derive from it. If we question the Bible's account of creation, could questioning its stance on homosexuality or original sin be far behind?

While intelligent design abandons this literal approach to Genesis, it too is an effort to defend a narrow understanding of Christian theology--namely, that God acts primarily through overt interventions in the physical world, and that a theory of evolution which makes such intervention unnecessary could be taken as evidence that God is not present in any aspect of existence. This is why ID advocates are struggling to force Godly interventions back into biology by any means necessary.


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Brian Collinsworth is a student at Sarah Lawrence College and an intern for the Faith and Progressive Policy Initiative at the Center for American Progress.

CampusProgress.org is a progressive, youth-oriented online magazine run by the Center for American Progress.

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Thank God!
Posted by: mrjones on Nov 21, 2005 1:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Finally an intelligent reconciliation of evolution and intelligent design. It goes much deeper but hopefully this should be good enough for the average materialistic intellectual. Strict materialism is just as much an article of faith as is the existence of Deity. There's no reason to conclude that only that which is perceivable by our 5 senses and comprehendable by our rational minds exists, nor to deny that there may be a number reasons beyond our understanding for why things are the way they are.

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» thank you for noticing... Posted by: qrswave
Rational and well stated, therefore scary to many
Posted by: whyoung on Nov 21, 2005 4:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A rational argument that I wholeheartedly support - it is sad, though, that most fundamentalists would see this as just another deceit against their god and oppression of their beliefs.

In the small town in Oklahoma where I live, most of the inhabitants would not understand what the author is saying and, therefore, label it as heresy because it would frighten them. Until knowledge becomes as important to these people as their religion is, they will sadly remain this way.

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Question...
Posted by: daniel1982 on Nov 21, 2005 5:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a question. Why do people feel the need to reconcile their faith with what is essentially a theory. I mean faith in God by its nature should be absolute and unchanging. When you say you believe in God, you are claiming something about the universe, and about life . Scientific theories on the other hand are snap shots of how we think the world looks like at this current time.

Evolution is wrong. If we are talking in the absolute truth sense, most likely all or parts of it are completely wrong. This is fine with Science; Science is not in the business of finding ultimate absolute truths, but rather find models (based on logic) that seem describe and predict the current observable universe.

Things that may seem obvious may be wrong. Newton's Laws are wrong. They break down across very large distances and very small distances. However, at one point in time it was claimed that physics was over because these laws predicted the motion of objects on earth and planets perfectly.

Another example, when Bohr put forth his model of the atom, it was neat, concise and matched the observable behaviour of hydrogen perfectly (almost). What was wrong with it? It turned out to only work for hydrogen, and not the other elements.

These two example illustrate the fallacy of generalizing observable phenomena over (potentially) infinite objects based on the observation of a finite number of them. Again, this is fine with Science, since it doesn't try to claim the ultimate truth of its theories.

Now, back to Evolution. It is a theory that spans 4 billion years, multiple fields from archeology, geology to bio-chemistry and biology and generalized across the millions of species of living beings (animal, plant, bacterial) on this planet. Why are you people trying to cram God into this?

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» RE: Question... Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» Monkeys Posted by: crusty
» RE: Monkeys Posted by: bsbremmer
» We aren't monk"ies" Posted by: decembrist
» RE: We aren't monk"ies" Posted by: crusty
» RE: We aren't monk"ies" Posted by: EncinoM
» Absolute and Unchanging Faith? Posted by: decembrist
» * Posted by: decembrist
» RE: Question... Posted by: Doubtom
Other churches think different
Posted by: ciccio on Nov 21, 2005 5:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is a curious coincidence that as the debate in the States heats up, the church in England has come out saying the bible
is not the exact word of God, merely an indication of it and the
chief astromomer of the Vatican has ripped the intelligent design theory to shreds. http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=40829

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» RE: Other churches think different Posted by: liberalibrarian
IRRELEVENT GOD?
Posted by: Astroboy on Nov 21, 2005 5:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As human conciousness continues to evolve, and fundamentalist belief does not, they and it becomes less and less relevent, and will ultimately fall to evolutionary theory - extinction.

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Ignorance is a threat
Posted by: Poederbach on Nov 21, 2005 5:46 AM   
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"Men who believe absurdities will commit atrocities."
Voltaire

History is a wonderfull subject, but todays people have short memories and they allow themselfs to be brainwashed by TV programms and morons. Just go back to the Founding Fathers of the United States of America and start reading what they have to say about this subject. Please read "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine.
He will show you in less then a 100 pages the arguments why most Christians, Jews and Muslims are wrong, never the less the constitutions allows them to their own opinion. He produces evidence that The Bible, Torah and Koran are impositions and forgeries. When opinions are free, either in matters of government or religion, truth will finally and powerfully prevail. The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is Reason. " All national institutions of churches, wheter Jewish, Christian or Muslim, appear to me no other then human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit" (Thomas Paine)

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» RE: Ignorance is a threat Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Ignorance is a threat Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Ignorance is a threat Posted by: Ozzie
» RE: Ignorance is a threat Posted by: Doubtom
Flaws in litteral interpretations...
Posted by: Junior Barns on Nov 21, 2005 6:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As I was reading this article, I started thinking about the Genesis and how it says that god created the universe in seven days. It got me to thinking, and this may seem like a really circular argument, but if the universe had not yet been created, how are we supposed to define a day. To us, a day is well defined as the time it takes for the earth to make a full rotation on its axis. So there's no universe, no earth, no days.

This seven day time period seems like a very arbitrary period of time for the creation of the Universe, one which may have taken millions of earth years. Maybe we are in the seventh day, God is resting and he's letting evolution play out to finish his original design. How's that for reconciling the 'how' with the 'why'?

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» It’s Symbology, Stupid... Posted by: SevenStarHand
jefhadist
Posted by: jefhadist on Nov 21, 2005 6:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kropotkin was right! If we had a little more "Kropotkin" (we "evolve" through cooperation at least as much as thru competition/Darwin) in our genes AND our choices we'd have less bitterness and fanaticism in our theological "absolutes" and less chance for the fundamental/literalists among us to be dividing and conquering the cultural landscape. Hence there would be less atrocity committed in our name. Ah, if life were only that simple!

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» Where is ol' Kropotkin? Posted by: decembrist
I'm an evolutionary agnostic
Posted by: Jim on Nov 21, 2005 6:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm an agnostic on evolution -- I don't really know. I'm a Christian who takes the Bible authoritatively. That makes me a pacifist, against the death penalty, and for helping the poor.

I think a 6-day creation less than 10,000 years ago is the most straight-forward way of interpreting the scripture, but believe that the most straight-forward interpretation is not necessarily correct or most helpful. I agree with Brian Collisworth that the important spiritual meaning may be missed by concentrating on the literal interpretation. On the other hand, I do believe that God could have created all in 6 days.

That lets me see there are serious weaknesses in the argument for evolution.

But most of the time (with more exceptions than are mentioned by evolutionary texts), fossils of larger, more complex species are found in higher layers than simpler organisms. I have doubts whether the relative abilities to escape the Noachian deluge sufficiently explains this. Evolution explains this better.

Arguments against Intelligent Design (ID) that don't seem to understand ID are unhelpful. (It would be good to note that many fundamentalists do not like the ID approach. ID does not start as scripture as the basis for truth.) ID is based on information theory and perceived irriducible complexity.

Information theory can calculate mathematical odds for meaningful information to have proceeded from chance. When one looks at the amount of information needed for the simplest possible forms of life, the odds of it happening by chance don't look good.

Many biological structures depend on other biological structures to be usefull. Chance evolution has a hard time explaining how several complex structures would have evolved together, if they would not be useful until all fully evolved.

In searching for extraterrestrial intelligence, scientists assume a certain level of order and complexity indicate and intelligence. Applying the same standards to the genetic code is not fundementalism. There may be answers to the problems ID presents, but to label ID as religion avoids the questions.

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» RE: I'm an evolutionary agnostic Posted by: robchapman
Modern 'soft' Christianity would have been a mortal sin not long ago.
Posted by: Colin on Nov 21, 2005 6:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I disagree with the author when he claims outright that it is ‘perfectly possible to be a good Christian and embrace evolution at the same time.’ This is a relative question and, thus, has no absolute answers. Why? Well, try imagining going back only a couple of hundred years and suggesting that your were a Christian with the exception of the whole bit around creation. They’d have murdered you for blasphemy.

In truth, whereas I have only the tiniest amount of respect for people who still adhere to the Bible, such respect goes further than for those individuals who are happy to cherry pick the bits of religion they like the most and, where the arguments are contrived, make it up as they go along. That’s what it is when people ‘adapt’ Christianity to fit around contemporary scientific revelations and why they can’t see and except this is beyond me.

Another poster made the point that evolution – indeed, all ‘science’ – amounted to nothing more than a theory. And, to a large part, they’re correct. However, the same is equally true of religion – it is equally a theory. No one has ever produced tangible proof of the existence of God and probably never will. So why would it be wrong for religion to evolve in the same way a scientific theory does?

Essentially because each and every religion already contends to have ticked all the boxes and filled in missing pieces. Religions don’t claim to be fallible – they are the finished products, all the answers in one book. To adapt to something so trivial as the latest scientific discovers demonstrates the sheer fallibility of their ‘teachings’.

So when someone suggests they are a Christian who recognises evolution, try telling them to bugger off and pick one side of the fence or the other. ‘Their’ Christianity would have been considered a mortal sin by much more devout Christian’s (in the sense the word was conceived) than themselves and just because they have realised thay have to acquiesce to a world that measures repeatable results more than the opinions of a presumed wiser person, doesn’t mean we (the non-religious) have to acquiesce to them.

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» Sort of. . . . Posted by: NthnBrazil
» Fallible doctrines and dogma Posted by: decembrist
» To all the people above, Posted by: Colin
agitator church and state
Posted by: eileenflmng on Nov 21, 2005 6:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
DUH! Every thinking Christian understands the Bible contains oral stories from the ancients that were written down by imperfect scribes and translated by imperfect people.

Thinking Christian's understand everyone has an agenda and a world view that forms their opinions.

Thinking Christian's understand the stories in the Bible were not faxed in from God.

We truly are in a battle between fundamentalists and all those who think!


Read and THINK!
WAWA:
www.wearewideawake.org

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Support Red State Creationists
Posted by: JohnU on Nov 21, 2005 7:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should donate to red state creationist candidates. If red state kids don't learn the science around evolution, they won't be able to compete with my grandkids for the really good biotech jobs coming down the road. We should just make sure they learn how to say, "Want fries with that?"

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Such Pain...
Posted by: timeseb on Nov 21, 2005 7:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Following this ID debate from a French-Canadian perspective, I have to say that the level of moral pain expressed by many people in the US is an absolutely fascinating thing to witness.

And frankly, I don't get it. There seems to be such social pressure into «believing». Such consequences if one doesn't. And why?

The society I come from (Quebec) rejected religion in the sixties. Religion is now very much history here. So much so that abandoned churches, for instance, are now overseen by the Provincial Department of Culture and Communications, just like museums and archeology. (http://www.ccq.mcc.gouv.qc.ca /patrimoine-religieux/entree_ang.htm)... Clearly, our situations are opposite : here, you'll raise eyebrows if you openly «believe»... (and, guess what, we didn't sink into evil and destruction. Not even after gay wedding has become a constitutional right. Not even as we're seriously considering legalising marijuana)

What good can ID do America? How does it cure cancer? How does it make computers faster, cars, cleaner? And above all, how does it make anyone any happier?

Shouldn't that be the goal, happiness? I'm saddened to see people struggle like that over moral concepts that shoudn't be mandatory. It seems like such a waste of time and energy. Making «faith» fit the real world is such an effort when a thing like evolution is there, readily available, convenient, expandable and useful. This battle over religion is such a distraction from more pressing issues. Health. Education. Environment...

Sam Harris (The End of Faith) says it best with this chilling quote : «There is no telling what our world would now be like had some great kingdom of Reason emerged at the time of the Crusades and pacified the credulous multitudes of Europe and the Middle East. We might have had modern democracy and the Internet by the year 1600.»

Like I said, this is just fascinating....

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» RE: Such Pain... Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: Such Pain... Posted by: Basenjis
"God" belongs to no religion
Posted by: monkeywrench on Nov 21, 2005 8:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course it's O.K. for christians to believe in Darwin. For one thing, if there is a God in the christian tradition, "he" gave us rational and inquisitive minds with which to examine and understand our world. And second; because there is no one living who has actually seen the "face" of god, or spirit, or whatever (along with the conspicuous absense of miracles in the modern age [I don't count finding the Virgin Mary in bathroom window steam a miracle]), the fact is that all religions of the world are no more than educated – and in many cases, uneducated – guesses as to the existance and nature of any higher power.

It is long past time for us, the only sentient living things in the known universe, to stop arguing and fighting (and killing) over who's concept of "God" is right – because NOBODY really knows. What is true, though, is that spirituality is not found in a building and did not come into existance with the christian religion; spirituality has a lot more to do with how we treat each other: that we do not kill for any reason other than self-defense, that we do not turn our backs on the weak and hungry, that we do not destroy our own world, and, most importantly, that we treat each other as each of us would like to be treated. This is the one lesson we can all embrace, and one that if broken we will all pay for – in this life or the next.

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what is wrong with not believing in fairy tales
Posted by: Fade on Nov 21, 2005 8:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People are stupid. All religous books were written by man, not god. All religions that make man a mighty creation, the right hand of A Omniscient God, are WRONG. We should return to our basic primitive beliefs, because in every races' history we all began believing that we were a part of the universe, NOT The reason for it. If mankind could humbly accept this fact and strive in their everyday lives to make the world a better place to live in- We wouldn't have all these problems. As long as man assumes that they are God's Gift to existence, and that their particular sect/clan/cult is better than every other, we will continue to be arrogant and ignorant, destructive and delinquet.

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literal readings of figurative language don't work
Posted by: gerdhansel on Nov 21, 2005 9:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good analysis of the interplay between science and spirituality.

But consider -- if you were God, how would you go about communicating with illiterate bronze-age shepherds? You'd have to speak in terms that these people could understand, wouldn't you?

Humans at the dawn of civilization would readily understand concepts like "days," "light," "dark," "weeks," and so forth. When the literal truth of a thing might be too overwhelming for these pre-technological peoples, metaphor and yes, even myth might communicate the essential truth more effectively. 21st-century people of faith often overlook the simple fact that the Bible was written to be understood by the same people who were writing it down on paper.

Even so, the Genesis story does offer clues about the subtle interplay between how the universe works (evolution) and how an invisible hand might occasionally tinker with the works. One passage in Genesis talks about the times when the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful and took them for wives. Their children, called Nephilim, were "men of renown." Many believe the Nephilim were the abominable offspring of human women and demons.

Consider, however, that even though homo sapiens had been around in his present state for a couple of hundred thousand years, civilization as we know it did not explode until after the last ice age ended about 10,000 years ago. What if a subtle tweak in the human genome, say around 8,000 years ago, was what caused humans to suddenly change from hunting and gathering creatures to farmers living in villages and cities?

Humans with this new mutation would have a decided advantage over other humans in the deadly earnest competition for scarce resources, especially in places like the Middle East. They would use this advantage to enrich themselves, and to spread their seed.

Another interesting Genesis passage describes God making the man Adam in "His image." This text has been debated for centuries, but I think this genetically altered homo sapiens was different from the other humans on the planet in at least one important way: he was spiritual. God was a spiritual being, so the man made in His image was also a spiritual being, like Yoda’s "luminous" creatures. Within a few hundred years, this mutation would have spread to most of humanity, and tales of universal floods and creation myths would fill their oral histories.

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Oh God
Posted by: chaoslegs on Nov 21, 2005 9:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am an atheist. However, it ticks me off that so many of the religious leaders only talk about their religion. Yes, monotheistic beliefs are predominant in the US, but they aren't for everybody. What about Native American religions or Hindus?

From Bollywood/Hollywood.

Mother, "All gods are equal."
Grandmother replies, "But Hindu gods are the best."

So unless we are going to allow ALL religions into the classroom, keep them ALL OUT. I bet the Christian fundamentalists would not like to see Islam, Hindu, Buddha, Hare Krishna, Shinto, etc... taught in their child's classes.

By the way, in great irony my middle name is Christian.

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» RE: Oh God Posted by: Lindie
If it's still "in" to read the bible.
Posted by: author_of_life on Nov 21, 2005 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1 Corinthians 2:10 But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God. 12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words. 14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

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» Read and understand Posted by: BlueTigress
If it's still "in" to read the bible...
Posted by: author_of_life on Nov 21, 2005 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Romans 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: 25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nat ure: 27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due. 28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: 32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

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problem
Posted by: author_of_life on Nov 21, 2005 10:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Too primitive? Let's say that God has always been there. There is nothing before Him...
You can only say that "I don't believe in God" or realize that you are also primitive.
Even the most foolish thought of God is greater than all the accumulated wisdom of man.

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question from italy
Posted by: otitetute on Nov 21, 2005 10:24 AM   
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even if Italy is the base of Church, we don't have problem about this question,because at school you just learn scientific metters.seeing this question from Italy,the situation is strange. But i've a specific question about God, creation and Bible. Who did write the Bible? God maybe? Or man?
man,surely, everybody can agree with me. How man can know things so bigger than him? How could a man decide HOW God created the world? and ,most of all, i think that man is very very conceited in saying that he is the top of the Creation.i just think that creation,evolutionism are things too big for us, and we can just trust science,that has always given a rationalistic answer to our questions.

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» RE: question from italy Posted by: Basenjis
Try Teilhard
Posted by: zackpez on Nov 21, 2005 10:27 AM   
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A great Christian writer of the twentieth century, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, has already done a fantastic job of looking at evolution through Christian eyes. His Phenomenon of Man approaches the concept of evolution as a constant development and unfolding of conciousness over time towards an Omega Point, which he identifies with Christ. The work is strong both on the academic and the literary front, as an eloquent case for a progressive view of evolution.

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Seems odd
Posted by: author_of_life on Nov 21, 2005 10:34 AM   
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Do you think possibly that the "intellectuals" think up and talk of such matters only for attention? It's funny to see science throughout the ages and how scholars of every generation will always fight the current scientific breakthrough's dogmatically.... Yet later new science comes along and the old thoughts and theories are dismissed as elementary.... If you learn from our mistakes then you will see where evelution is headed. I am sure that you love to "sound" intelligent, and love making everything palletable to your mind, but learn from others mistakes. Evolution will be laughed at one day.... infact I laugh at it now, it's the best thing we could think up! Our wisdom is really... lame.

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» RE: Seems odd Posted by: ffej nitram
» RE: Seems REAL odd Posted by: decembrist
Tired of the fight
Posted by: BlueTigress on Nov 21, 2005 10:57 AM   
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I personally am tired of the whole thing. The fundies are fools and make the rest of us look stupid.

My school district never offered comparative religion OR philosophy classes at either the middle school or high school level. I would hav enjoyed them if they did.

I personally don't like a religion that makes everything that's wrong with the planet women's fault, especially when the religions don't want to allow women to be in a position to DO anything about it.

Finally, if humans are all descended from Cain, since he offed his brother Abel, this makes us the progeny of an incestuous family with anger problems. Explains a lot, huh?

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» RE: Tired of the fight Posted by: Lindie
» RE: Tired of the fight Posted by: wikigeek
Another Explanation
Posted by: LoveYourEnemies on Nov 21, 2005 10:58 AM   
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What if we misunderstood why those Gensis chapters 1 and 2 were written?

According to legend, Genesis was written by Moses while the Israelites were wandering through the desert. They had just come from a land where they were inundated polytheism and each god had a particular job to do in creating the universe. Genesis contradicts those religions by stating there was only one god and this one god did everything. I believe the Genesis account of the beginning of the universe was more about "who" than the "why" or the "how". I think it was only written so folks back then would understand that their god was the king of the jungle (so to speak).

I believe science is a test to see if believers really will love the truth at the expense of tradition. Case in point, during the Middle Ages, everyone held to the belief in a Ptolmeic universe model where the earth is in the center and everything orbits around it. Copernicus and Gallileo proved them wrong. Their biggest persecutor was the church, because they refused to be faithful to God and truth. Now, no intelligent Christian (there are some atheists out there saying that's an oxymoron) will accept the fact that the earth is the center of the universe. The Christian understanding of the Bible changed because of scientific evidence.

Someone once likened faith to a web and the person as a spider. If a rock is thrown at the web, the spider has three choices. First, she can let the hole stay in her web and thus not catch any flies and then starve. Second, the spider can leave her web and build it somewhere else. Or finally, the spider can repair the hole with modifications based on the damage caused by the rock.

Evolution is the rock that smashed through Christianity's understanding of Genesis. As I told an atheist friend of mine, I view evolution as a means of understanding how God has done things. Could I be considered by some to be unfaithful to tradition and "orthodoxy"? Yep, but, then I would ask the person how he/she knows his/her interpretation is infallibly correct? The Bible was used to justify slavery and misogyny and we know that's wrong. I personally think the whole evolution/creation debate is a waste of energy. There are so many other things in the world that we all could be tackling, like poverty, racism, sexism, despotism, and a whole host of other "ism"s.

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...
Posted by: philosopherintraining on Nov 21, 2005 11:32 AM   
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Bloody fundamentalists. The Good Lord knows I go to church, and I try to interperet the Bible sensibly.

But these Televangelists! ARGH! Pretentious Jerks ruin it for the rest of us!


Religion today, public religion: televangelists, right wing conservatives, even the president, are making religion political.

People are being led by those who only want personal gain. Propaganda is being posted about the "Right" way to live.
Evangelical Christianity is slowly, ever so slowly, taking the dominant posotion in the world today, because we see the product of apathy, and people want something to believe. They get it shoveled into their heads, undigested, and it rots them.

The world is going to Hell, and so many unwilling people are being led to the slaughter by politicians who only want more.


open your eyes, open your mouths, close your hands and make a fist.

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Mme Flutterbye et al
Posted by: Mme Flutterbye on Nov 21, 2005 12:07 PM   
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We stopped going to church when we realized how the awesome power of the universe was being trivialized by dogma. The rules and regulations of all religions are nothing more than a way to grab power for its priests, ministers, imams, rabbis, and whoever else calls him/herself a spiritual leader. In our opinion, spiritual beliefs are deeply personal , to be contemplated in private; and not to be thrown in the faces of the people we meet.

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» RE: Mme Flutterbye et al Posted by: Basenjis
I always wanted to know
Posted by: NoPCZone on Nov 21, 2005 12:55 PM   
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How someone takes money under the guise of a charity, builds a media empire with tax exemptions and then sells a large portion of it off while pocketing the proceeds.

CBN was built upon millions of dollars of tax-exempt donations over many years and converted into a satellite-based outfit (CBN Family Channel) that was then sold for a fortune to Disney (now the ABC Family Channel).

Where are the investigative reporters, the IRS and others? Where were they years ago when all of this happened? Why doesn't anybody say anything about it?

I guess it's just like the Rev. 'Shakedown' Jesse Jackson's systemic extortion racket under PUSH. Nobody wants to call these people to account for what they are doing in the name of God.

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The bible did not arrive whole or was it written by one person
Posted by: ShaSpirit on Nov 21, 2005 2:47 PM   
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God is an energy beyond our understanding to have created the universes. This great and vast energy did not have 24 hour days. He had not sun revolving around him to count days and nights. Some where in the Bible I read God's days were like into thousands of years. God does not have human body, he lived in space and probably in a different dimension. We are created out of the same energy, that is how we resemble God.

The creation story starts with Adam and Eve. But the first woman was Lillith and she would not bow down to Adam, so she became a dark being. (She is in Jewish texts) I image she was the one who really eat the apple of knowledge. Eve took her proper place as lesser being. They had two boys, who fought and Able died. His brother Cain left where the family lived and took a wife among another tribe of people. Where did this other tribe come from?

If you study early belief systems of the middle east, you will find much of their early writings are the same. Moses wrote the first five books of the bible. Before this it was handed by one generation to the next by memory and the spoken word. The original Bible was destroyed by the Romans when the destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem. It was rewritten by scholars from memory again. Before this the Jewish people had to go to the one and only Temple in Jerusalem for true worship before it was destroyed. After that each displaced group had its on little time and holy books.

Don't you think over the thousands of years that various people have translated it or rewritten the bible to suit themselves or the situation at the time. The New Testament is no different. The Christian New Testament differs from the Catholic one, Who should have had the first Christian Bible. Popes, Kings and others have retranslated the bible over and over again with their slant on what as been written. If you go back to the original Greek it was written in, you will find a much different New Testament. Where would the church be without the Book for Reevaluations? Without hell, the church would have no control over people. There is no devil in the old Testament or hell. It was add much later to the new Testament. How can this be the literal truth?

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Got your motor, got your builder
Posted by: Philip Newton on Nov 21, 2005 3:06 PM   
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Science is concerned with how things operate. Science is about mechanics.

My faith concerns the builder. A study of the builder can reveal what He built. But it is always about the builder.

I worship the Creator, not His creation, and so have no conflict with evolutionary science.

Got your apples. Got your Johnny Appleseed.

Thank God.

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Rick LeBlanc
Posted by: galileo707 on Nov 21, 2005 7:53 PM   
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What is linear about the progress of evolution? It has occurred in generally a non-linear fashion. Is it even progressive? If so in what sense? There is no reason to beleive that it has occurred in the sense implied, i.e, progress towards us. If not for an accidental asteroid impact, it is likely the dinosaurs would still dominate.

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Great New Yorker article: "Devolution: Why intelligent design isn’t."
Posted by: Artaraxl on Nov 21, 2005 11:27 PM   
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There's a great New Yorker article which discusses the two primary claims to justify I.D.:
1) The irreducible complexity of certain cellular structures, and
2) The supposed inadequacy of natural selection to account for macro evolution.

These claims are overwhelming dismissed by scientists (which is why it's not a scientific controversy, just a political one), but not flippantly, out of hand, or from any atheistic bias, but simply because they're not particulary good arguments are unnecessary to explain observed phenomena, and have no scientific utility (i.e. they don't suggest experiments by which to test the claims.):
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050530fa_fact

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Mme Flutterbye and Family
Posted by: Mme Flutterbye on Nov 22, 2005 10:45 AM   
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Science has more reverence for the awesome power in the Universe than do all the religions of the world put together.

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Thanks to all...
Posted by: BillC on Nov 22, 2005 10:45 AM   
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It undoubtedly says more about me than it does about this thread, but at this time there is nothing left to read, and I am compelled to write, THANKS TO ALL OF YOU. This was a great education!

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Creationism
Posted by: robchapman on Nov 23, 2005 6:30 AM   
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There really is no creationism vs evolution argument. One requires an understanding of both to understand the importance of Jesus' sacrifice.
God created the world; then Satan came into the Garden of Eden and created evolution.
God may well have created the world and the Universe in six days, but after Adam's Fall and the Curse things changed.
Creationists who deny evolution are denying Satan and the Power of Sin. Denial is not the same as denouncing.
Without a belief in the transformative power of sin and the effect of Adam's sin on the entire Universe (evolution and natural selection being one of these changes), belief in Jesus' transformative and salvific power is senseless.
So in a very significant way the Creationists, in insisting on their dogma are denying the importance of Jesus' sacrifice and the need for salvation.

Robert Chapman
Lansing, New York

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The Offering
Posted by: wikigeek on Dec 2, 2005 12:12 PM   
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I don't understand offerings at church. The pastor says god needs your money. But why would a god need money? I feel like my money is going into the pastor's pocket.

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