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When Mom and Dad Don't Know Best

By Jennifer Baumgardner, AlterNet. Posted September 28, 2005.


Twenty-three years ago, I helped my teenage sister get an abortion, without telling our parents. Today her story is still proof to me that parental consent laws don't work.
When Mom and Dad Don't Know Best
When Mom and Dad Don't Know Best

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I grew up the second of three daughters in a pro-choice household in Fargo, N.D. Our family talked about politics, read Our Bodies, Ourselves and voted Democrat, but when it came to actually discussing sex, my parents' mantra was "high school is too young."

In 1985, the summer after my freshman year in high school, my 16-year-old sister told me she was pregnant. Andrea, a National Merit Scholar, knew two things: She wanted an abortion and she didn't want to tell mom and dad.

"I'll help you," I said, honored that she'd turned to me.

Andrea wasn't worried that my parents would throw her out or beat her. She, like many minors who become pregnant, was more concerned about preserving her relationship with her family.

"I remember feeling like I can't add this to the official roster of things I've done," Andrea told me recently. "I was too young emotionally to have sex, but physically I wasn't. Any conversation I would have had with mom and dad would have ended with them telling me not to do it." She didn't want them to know anything about what felt to her like "a big mistake."

Andrea had $60 saved from her job at Burger King. I helped her raise the additional $200 she needed by borrowing it from an acquaintance at school. Although North Dakota had had an abortion clinic since 1980, there was also a law, in place since 1981, stipulating that both parents consent to a minor's abortion. Andrea went through the process of getting a judicial bypass. The clinic steered her though an interview with an amenable judge, I got her the money just in time and Andrea got her abortion. Although the experience was difficult for her, we were rather proud that we'd gone through it alone.

I've thought about Andrea's story a lot lately, especially now that California -- which, like New York, generally has very liberal abortion laws -- is considering its first parental notification legislation. Missouri and other states are considering laws that would make it a crime to even counsel a girl about her options. Some 33 states enforce parental consent or notification laws. In fact, it is the most popular restriction among people who support Roe v. Wade. A recent poll by the Pew Research Center (released August 3, 2005) found that 73 percent of Americans supported some form of required parental consent. When asked why, people often cite the fact that a minor can't have a wisdom tooth removed without parental consent, so why should she be allowed to have an abortion on her own?

But Andrea's story always seemed proof to me that parental consent laws --logical as they may sound -- don't work. If a girl doesn't want to tell her parents, she won't, even if they are nice and pro-choice.

By necessity, many clinics know how to efficiently work around the restriction of parental notification. Jane Bovard, the clinic director of the Red River Women's Clinic, who helped Andrea get her judicial bypass, told me she has never been turned down in 25 years of doing about two judicial bypasses a week. But many judges aren't so willing, and in states where bypasses aren't easy to come by, clinic workers are more likely to see a girl ask her boyfriend to beat her abdomen with a baseball bat (as in a recent Michigan case), than to see an increase in minors telling their parents. Bovard estimates that 80 percent of the minors she has worked with do tell their parents. The law mandating that they do so hasn't changed that statistic.


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Jennifer Baumgardner is the co-author of "Grassroots: A Field Guide to Feminist Activism" and "Manifesta: Young Women, Feminism and the Future." This is the first in her exclusive monthly series of articles for AlterNet on gender, culture and reproductive rights.

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This is a brave story with much insight
Posted by: ShaSpirit on Sep 28, 2005 12:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having been in both a daughter and a mother of daughters, I know how hard it is to talk about sexual things with girls. Abortion was not even legal when I was a girl, so it was never an option when I became pregnant. At the time I would have sought such relief; but when my kids became old enough to consider sex, I made it plain that I preferred getting them pills, instead of an abortion. I am pro-choice, because it is up to each person to decide how she uses her body and she has to live with the consequences of her choice for the rest of her life, no matter what her decision is. Having a baby and giving it away is just as shattering as an abortion would be for many. In my day girls were not allowed to keep babies. They were sent away where they had little or no support to help them throught such a difficult time. Many girls do not have parents they can tell without terrible consequences. It is far more human to tell kids about how to prevent pregnancy than waiting till they are pregnant to shame them and ruin their lives in one way or another.

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Difficult choices
Posted by: mmnichols on Sep 28, 2005 1:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the late 80's I was on the board of NOW, the National Organization for Women. I joined in order to understand myself as a woman and to see how other women felt. I soon got involved in the struggle to maintain the Roe Vs Wade decision. I helped escort women into clinics. I often heard people scream at these women and call them terrible names. I also felt the rocks thrown at them and us. I came to see how difficult the decision was to have an abortion in the first place, because I talked to these women. None of the women I talked to were taking this decision lightly or had come to it without a great deal of anguish and fear. I tried to be supportive of them. I also tried not to judge them or their circumstances. But I often saw the people who were screaming at them as being very afraid. I also tried to have conversations with some of them. Some of the people who identified themselves as pro-life were committed to saving lives. They felt that abortion was murder. I saw that there were a number of them who truly felt that and they were sincere. I tried not to judge them either. But some of them seemed to me to have another agenda. I would not say I absolutely knew what their agenda was, but I knew it was not what they were telling me. I got to debate with some pro-lifers and what they said was that it was a sin and that it should not happen no matter what. I had the hardest time with them. It seemed to me that they had made up their minds and that they were not interested in debate. The group that I came into contact with was Concerned Women of America. What struck me most about them was that they dressed alike, spoke alike, said all of the same things, and that they were all fairly well to do. As a member of NOW one of the things that became apparent was that all of the women and men I met had ideas of their own. It seemed to me that when I was involved in conversation with someone within the organization I found different ideas and opinions. We had a few similarities such as being for choice. Some of the women did not like the idea of abortion and wanted to work for a world in which it was not necessary. Some of the women wanted to help women find alternatives such as adoption. Some of the women felt that it was not up to them to decide what others should do. I admit I was more drawn to the group that was about choice. I wish no one ever had to make such a terrible decision and I do not know if I could do it.

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» RE: Difficult choices Posted by: mmnichols
» RE: Difficult choices Posted by: drmeow
No thinking person is "pro-abortion"
Posted by: kww355 on Sep 28, 2005 4:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's why we use the term "pro-choice". With an unwanted pregnancy, it is almost always the best of the lot of poor solutions.

I once saw a documentary on adoptees searching for their birth mothers. One man was upset because after his search, she refused to meet with him. She finally had to tell him that he was the product of an incestuous rape.

Nobody ( including the Concerned Stepford Women of America ) should have to endure that.

Against abortion ? It's very simple
Don't have one !

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Protecting parents
Posted by: silkreed on Sep 28, 2005 5:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Teenage minds do not work in predictable, sensible ways. At the time when she most needs the support and comfort of her parents, and even when they would have been understanding and helpful, a teenage girl's sense of caring or loyalty overrides good sense. She prefers to protect her parents from the pain of knowing. Why do I know this? Mine never knew...

Clear explicit sex education is so needed -- the basics in middle school, more depth in high school, with plenty of discussion about the emotional aspect -- relationships, dating, what constitutes abuse, and so on. My kids are so way ahead of where I was, and I am so grateful.

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what the F
Posted by: Jimbarnett on Sep 28, 2005 6:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So you think that it is okay for a child to play adult, get pregnant, have an abortion, never tell her parents about it and continue to "live" at home and have her parents otherwise care for her. Have you conducted a reality check to see what planet you are on lately? Duh

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» RE: what the F Posted by: dbenson
» RE: what the F Posted by: kww355
» RE: what the F Posted by: owleyes
» Has it ever occured to you... Posted by: crazycatmadame
» Emotional maturity Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: philame
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: Snoopy Brown
» I mean: what is the point of having sex? Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Then we agree Posted by: gp
» RE: Then we agree Posted by: LPB
» I'm ok, you're ok, not Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Sexual violence. Yep. Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Sexual violence. Yep. Posted by: philame
» Virtually all teenagers are wrong Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Thanks for the support Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: philame
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: drmeow
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: Snoopy Brown
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: Snoopy Brown
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: American Maid
» My mom DIDNT TEACH ME ABOUT PERIODS Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: American Maid
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: owleyes
» What are 15 year olds doing having sex Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Bee Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» It's a deal Posted by: beetruetoyou
» PERSONAL framing. Part 2. Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: motional maturity Posted by: montana freeman
» Emotional Maturity Posted by: beetruetoyou
» Will be having sex? Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Will be having sex? Posted by: beetruetoyou
» RE: what the F Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: what the F Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: what the F Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: what the F Posted by: montana freeman
» RE: what the F Posted by: drmeow
» In a word "Yes" Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» No ... that's not MY point ... Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» RE: what the F Posted by: LPB
» That's right LPB, I left at 18. Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Suddenly Orthodox Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Suddenly Orthodox Posted by: LPB
» RE: what the F Posted by: montana freeman
» Who the F cares anymore? I dont. Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Bush/Limbaugh GOP never needed permission to abort lives in the U.S., Afganistan, and Iraq through
Posted by: NDnative on Sep 28, 2005 6:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
their destructive policies. But I do understand that the parental notification dilemma can be a real toughie. If the young one really wants to terminate that unwanted pregnancy, I say sit down and frame the truth about what caused the unwanted pregnancy in the first place so that her parents don't take it as a shocker. Back up here, there are already, or going to be, regulations making parental notification totally irrelevant just like elsewhere in America.

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» Trust me -- it's always a "shocker" Posted by: AdamSelene11726
Amen, Richie the C !!!
Posted by: kww355 on Sep 28, 2005 7:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that if the pro-lifers force women to complete the pregnancies, they should be made to adopt the kids & foot the bills.

But why should a woman be put through nine months of misery for *someone else's* misguided moral stance ?

My body? The buck stops here!

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» RE: Amen, Richie the C !!! Posted by: American Maid
» RE: Amen, Richie the C !!! Posted by: Snoopy Brown
» That's right. Forget about it. Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Parents and society
Posted by: tabaumann on Sep 28, 2005 7:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our "every-man-for-himself" society makes it hard to be a parent; but makes it even harder to be a child. If you love your children unconditionally, behave as though you do and respect them AS HUMAN BEINGS, they will not feel it necessary to hide their humanity from you. You get the children you deserve (something I never realized until I became a parent). No law in the land will ever change that.

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I hear what Ms. Baumgardner saying
Posted by: DaBear on Sep 28, 2005 9:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Had my parents not been "tipped off" by a "friend" who was obeying her "Christian obligation" I might have a healthy relationship with my father. The abortion took place anyway, but the damage to both families was extensive, needlessly so. As a parent, I want my daughter to have access to both contraception and safe, legal abortion if she believes that is what she needs at any given time. I can handle being told afterwards. In my own experience the damage would have been considerably less. From the stats in the article parental notification is just a layer of governmental interference in a situation where most pregnant girls tell their parents anyway. Another layer of unnecessary governmental intervention by the folks who constantly moan and wail that government is too big, but then turn around and give us the biggest government and the greatest loss of freedoms since the colonial era.

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Growing up in a pro choice household.
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 28, 2005 9:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also grew up in a pro-choice household. My father is very pro-choice, he support Planned Parenthood financially. His mentality when I was growing up if I was going to have sex he would rather have me there at his house then out somewhere. Well my mother did not agree with this so it is not how it played out, but I know my father is very accepting of reality.

My question to Jim Barnett and my question to all of you is: what are the emotional motivations behind a teenager having sex? What are they seeking?
Empowerment?
Acceptance?
An outlet?

As I told Jim Barnett, this culture as a whole ignores the emotional aspects of sexuality and that is very very very unhealthy. Even men on this board talk about tits and getting some.

Huh?

We are not advanced at all when it comes to human sexuality in America, we are quite quite primitive.

I would like to see an article that talks about the emotional aspects of sexuality and I would also like to hear your opinions on it, especially in regards to a teenager who has not even finished high school yet!

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» RE: Great suggestion Posted by: philame
» Hi Philame Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Hi Philame Posted by: dai766
» The core Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Hi Philame Posted by: philame
» Stupidity Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Stupidity Posted by: owleyes
» honey all the time Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: honey all the time Posted by: montana freeman
» ;) Posted by: La Femme Nikita
It is NOT about protecting minors
Posted by: American Maid on Sep 28, 2005 11:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Parental laws are NOT about anyone's feelings or wishes but control of others and stopping abortion. How many more abortions would there be if minors (both female AND male) had to notify their parental units of a pregnancy at all. How many births are there because the minor didn't say a word until it was too late for the parent to force an abortion? That's why there isn't any laws except for those that would result in an abortion.

The truth is there is a great number of families that aren't 50's TV. If a parent is truly supportive they will be when they find out later too.

The idea that a minor isn't mature enough to make a decision about an abortion but is mature enough to be forced to carry a pregnancy to term is ridiculous. Yeah, yeah... give the baby up for adoption but that doesn't happen nearly as much as they like you to think. That takes a really mature decision. Instead what you get is immature people of limited means cutting short their education and needing govermental assistance which is going to be condemned by the same asses (Concerned Women -- yeah right -- for America, et al) and damn both the young mother and the child to something beneath them.

The ironic thing is the best preventative of abortions is lots of love, openess and education which is the opposite of what those who are pro-got to be in everyone else's because can't deal with their own-life are least likely to provide.

And then, the idea that these minors aren't capable of knowing what they have every damn right to know as capable smart future adults is utterly ridiculous. Our job as parents is to raise grown-ups who can make good decisions for their lives.

To do that they need to know about their bodies and all the consequences of the decisions around their bodies. That IS our job as parents.

They are going to learn come hell or high water. I'd rather my children learn from me than the other ignorant kids at school or the jerk down the street that is taking advantage of my child's ignorance for his or her own gain. On the other hand, I'd rather your child learn from mine than not learn anything at all.

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Why Have Sex At 15
Posted by: lmwilker on Sep 28, 2005 12:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I did it because I would do anything, and anyone, to keep from going home.

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» RE: Why Have Sex At 15 Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
Why have sex at 17
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 28, 2005 1:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I did it because I thought it would make me a great artist, like, should I out him? hmmm...should I? should I?
YES
Paul Spencer.
So there. Yeah I thought sleeping with him would give me the confidence to get into the San Francisco Art Institute. Not. He married the next girl after me cause I rejected him. Now he is an expatriate in Brazil.
You see, sex as violence. You see what I learned? Sex as seduction. At the age of 17. Well I learned that at 13.
So you see AdamSelene? I read The Story of O and DH Lawrence and Sade at 13. Yes young girls do read these books.
I had total intellectual freedom.
So are you all scandalized now?
Are you Adam?

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» Scandalized ? Not particularly. Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» Yes I am bitter. Have been since April. Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» AGREE 10000% Adam Posted by: Michiganman
» You men judge me wrong. Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: You men judge me wrong. Posted by: montana freeman
» RE: You men judge me wrong. Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Sex at 15
Posted by: ashifrass on Sep 28, 2005 1:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had sex at 15 because after two years, i was convinced we were in love. It was nice having a guy around, seeing as how my father was dead. It is still hard for me to be alone.

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A Radical American Communist Responds
Posted by: Commie_Ricko on Sep 28, 2005 2:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am as far left as I can get without throwing a bomb but I draw the line and break the mold of most radicals in the left movement who favor and chose abortion as a form of birth control. I am also a Catholic and that breaks another mold. I know it is the law of the land but man's laws and not God's laws! If you are old enough to get pregnant you are old enough to control your sex drive or scream rape but not abortion. Abortion is murder!

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» ROTLMAO Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Then open up the jails! Posted by: beetruetoyou
SEX AT 15
Posted by: TALYN on Sep 28, 2005 3:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had sex at 15 for one simple reason...raging hormones..i was just plain horny. My sister had sex at 14 for the same reason. My mother at 14 for the same reason...Not everyone does it for acceptance, love, control, etc...some teens are just horney and arent taught a way to vent the built up pressure on their own

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» We must consider... Posted by: Envi
» RE: SEX AT 15 Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: SEX AT 15 Posted by: JessicaJean
» RE: SEX AT 15....Ditto JessJean Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: SEX AT 15 Posted by: montana freeman
» point taken Posted by: owleyes
» Hanky panky Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Debate
Posted by: hhartman on Sep 28, 2005 3:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are some very good and thought provoking thoughts within these comments. Being that I work in social services, I see the gammut of different things. First of all, it has been my experience that women using abortion as birth control is as big a myth as the welfare queen. And secondly, that there are too many times when a parent shouldn't be the one making such decisions. Just yesterday I was speaking with a colleague about a client who was seeking mental health services, but her mother wouldn't let her recieve counseiling. In Oregon children under 16 have to have parental permission for medical/mental health services. This child was an extreme case, but I don't think I want her mother making those decisions about her health and well being. The problem is that too many parents aren't necessarily making decisions that are the best for their child's well being, and truly that is the core of this issue. For me I am pro choice, I chose to wait to have sex until I was 19, but luckily my parent's instilled a healthy view of sex in me, and I realized that I wasn't ready to have a child/STI/handle the emotionality that sex brings around. Unfortunately too many adolescents aren't that lucky. But I digress...

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» Thank you for the reality check ... Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» the little darling, why the snark Adam? Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Sex outside of marriage Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Sex outside of marriage Posted by: Snoopy Brown
» I am just angry period Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: I am just angry period Posted by: Snoopy Brown
» no Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: abortion as a form of birth control Posted by: montana freeman
Hormones are nature way of making sexual decisions
Posted by: ShaSpirit on Sep 28, 2005 4:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In recent medical research it was found that the best time to have a baby was in your teen years. Thousands of years of evolution went into making the sexual drive a top priority. Having a baby is what nature wants out of teenagers. You cannot tell kids sex is bad for years and not have it carry over to marriage. This is religious view, carried over from the Inquisition. If a man enjoyed sex is wife was a witch. A woman was never to enjoy sex. They burned women for enjoying sex. This mind set still exists in our society.

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» And romance, what the heck is that? Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Happiness? What the heck is that. Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Well I am also an EOC Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Well I am also an EOC Posted by: Snoopy Brown
» Thank you Posted by: La Femme Nikita
It's all about control
Posted by: LPB on Sep 29, 2005 10:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 'pro-life' contingent of our society wants to control the actions of other people who feel differently about this issue than they do. Instead of making their own choice and living with it, they want to make the choice for other individuals as well. People who are in favor of parental consent laws are also for exercising a form of control over the actions of other people.
I gave birth to a daughter 18 years ago. There is nothing I wouldn't do for her, if I thought it was truly necessary. But as her mother, I must let her control her own life and her own body. I started teaching her about sex, birth control, STD's, love, and relationships when she was about 10, before she began seeking independence from me and my ideals.
While I personally am against abortion, I am very much pro-choice. I would hope that my daughter would come to me first if she were faced with this decision, but I accept that she may not. It is so difficult for us to admit to those people in our lives who we want to admire and respect us that we've made a horrendous mistake, and so much more difficult when that person is a parent. I can just imagine the turmoil. 'Yes, I know my mother loves me (Dad too!) but will she still respect me and think I'm a good person? Will she still be proud of me?'
Parents who are controlling have a very hard time with this issue, yet these are the parents who are most likely to punish, either physically or emotionally, actions which go against their own teachings and moral beliefs.
I believe -- and this is not directed to any of you who are opposed to the religious/spiritual viewpoint, so feel free to ignore it -- that Jesus himself said something about judging other people and asked for any non-sinners to step forward and cast the first stone. Who among us is without sin?
The original pioneers who came to our continent were fleeing a society which wanted to impose certain morals on everyone, without regard for individual conscience. This morality legislation seems to be coming largely from organized religion. I thought we left this concept of church domination over our personal decisions behind years ago.
Also, some of the postings I have read refer to sex at early ages. I believe it is a relatively modern concept to wait as long as we expect our young people to wait before becoming sexual. Historically, women began having sex and families at a much earlier age than most of us do now.

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» RE: It's all about control Posted by: Snoopy Brown
» No, some parents are abusive Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: No, some parents are abusive Posted by: Snoopy Brown
» This discussion has reached its end Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» You have a beautiful mind LPB Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Another point of view
Posted by: tessd on Sep 29, 2005 1:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I run a fund that helps poor women to exercise their right to abortion, even if they can't afford that choice.

All we deal with are poor women and girls. Parental consent/notification laws only succeed in putting girls at risk for grave sickness or death.

There are two facts: Abortion will never cease to exist no matter what the law says. Teens by definition go through a rebellious stage and if they believe that abortion is the option they want, they will not stop until they get one.

So here's the question: Are we so ego-driven as parents that we would put our daughters' lives in jeopardy to satisfy our need to know?

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» Abortion won't stop? So? Posted by: unordained
» RE: Abortion won't stop? So? Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Abortion won't stop? So? Posted by: unordained
I am not satisfied with these responses
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 29, 2005 7:06 PM   
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None of you are getting at what caused the girl to get pregnant in the first place.
Was it a deliberate plea for attention.
Why?
If a girl needs attention that bad, what kind of parents does she have?
I would say if a girl gets pregnant something is DEFINITELY beyond wrong in the family of origin, and the whole family needs to be in the system.
I can not real advocate for a girl to end her life at 15 and that is what bearing a child will do here in America in the 21st century.
I grew up in a pro-choice household.
That is all I can say.

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Relationships
Posted by: aedwards on Oct 1, 2005 5:07 PM   
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I can't help but wonder what this poor girl's perents would have thought if they found out the they had been lied to. It's obvious from the story that the girl and her sister didn't trust thier perents enough to think that they could handel something like this. Did she think that her perents would have forced her to have the child?
What about the sister who thinks that an associate at school deserves to know more about what is going on in this girls life then her parents.
Did she think that her parents would have stopped loving her if they found out she had sex before she was out of high school?
I think that there is more to this story then we are being told. Why would a child like this have any reason to be so scared of her parents that she can't tell them something this important and life changing? It seems to me that what this young person did was acually more irresponsible then brave.
What if something had happened on the operating table. Can you imagine the reaction of the parents if they found out that thier daughter was going through a medical proceedure that they didn't know about and got seriously injured or even died? I know I wouldn't want to be them at the moment they found out that thier daughter was dead and she was to scared to talk to them.
Just a few thoughts on the subject. Aedwardsone@yahoo.com

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Let's call it Pro-Rights
Posted by: beetruetoyou on Oct 1, 2005 5:29 PM   
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As a woman who has had an abortion, is pro-life and pro-choice, and doing a research project on women, abortion, and the silence surrounding their experiences, I read somewhere someone advocating the pro-choice movement redefine the term as "pro-rights." I like that. It is a RIGHT of a woman to decide what to do with her body and yes it IS still HER body at that point. I highly recommend the movie Vera Drake.

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» RE: Let's call it Pro-Rights Posted by: aedwards
» RE: Let's call it Pro-Rights Posted by: beetruetoyou
» RE: Let's call it Pro-Rights Posted by: aedwards
» Sounds fascinating bee Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Thanks Jennifer
Posted by: beetruetoyou on Oct 1, 2005 6:48 PM   
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Thanks for generating an amazing discussion, Jennifer. I think the subject of abortion spoken by women and girls who have had them has been in the closet for too long. I hope women will start feeling freer to speak up about their experiences. However, because of the judgement and wrath of the anti-choice, anti-rights radical right religious people, most of us prefer to keep that part of our lives hidden.

I felt it freeing to "come out" and actually did it when asked to speak at our church's women's retreat. I decided if these women couldn't accept me with all my past, I didn't need to be part of that church. I knew God accepted me and had walked through those trying times with me. I was not only amazed at the love and grace they extended to me, including several older women, but also discovered two other women in the audience who I never would have expected of having abortions, came up to me afterward telling me about their experiences. They were SO glad to finally be able to speak about it to someone who they knew would not be judging them.

I hope you and your sister continue to speak up about your experience and the aftermath of "coming out."

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» RE: Thanks Jennifer Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Ridiculous statement lefemme Posted by: Michiganman
» The Fag Hags Webring Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» The Homosexual Christian Part 3 Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» The Homosexual Christian Part 2 Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Okay...just as I suspected Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Okay...just as I suspected Posted by: La Femme Nikita
The Ancient Goddess of Israel
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Oct 1, 2005 9:41 PM   
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I have something that is gonna rock your world:
The Ancient Goddess of Israel.
Now, I think, here is my little take on this whole affair. Every boy and girl needs to be taught fertility signals. Thats right folks. Sex is about fertility. We need to change our language entirely. Thank God I remembered this book. I was sinking into despair thinking about my 5 year old daughter having sex at 15. Not!
Somehow, oh yeah I know, a witch, that's right folks, a pagan, she must have taught me about fertility signals.
Celebrate those earth religions!
Especially the ancient goddess of Israel, God's consort.
I will not cut the spiritual dimension out of life. Will not. I speak for the Ancient Goddess of Israel, a woman at her biological peak.
Respect the fertility of the woman, men. And women, respect your own fertility. And parents, respect the fertility of your children.
See paradigm shift.
Different kind of thinking.
How many parents think about the fertility of their children?
How many Americans think about fertility?
The CIA World Book does. It lists women's fertility rates in countries around the globe.
Me and karsao were talking about geopolitics over on Matt's blog tonight.
I like that word geopolitics.
The Geopolitics of Fertility.
Uh-huh.
Now we're rocking.

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Abusive Parents
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Oct 1, 2005 10:33 PM   
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I meant to post this here, but I posted it on the discussion on unwed motherhood. Oh well. No harm in saying the same thing in both places.

When a minor girl gets pregnant, it is the parents responsibility. I would posit the reason a minor gets pregnant is she being abused and/or neglected by her parents. Parental consent laws endanger a girl further who is already being abused and/or neglected. A minor should be allowed to get an abortion if she needs one, and she should be given therapy. A minor girl that gets pregnant is in serious trouble.

My heart goes out to each and every minor girl that gets pregnant. I love them all. I want to help them all. They are all hurting.

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Sometimes I wish I hadn't read...
Posted by: ssantee on Oct 2, 2005 12:10 AM   
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This stuff is really mixed up.
It is almost as if we are saying, "everyone do whatever, it's no big deal".
The viewpoint expressed in this artivle is not reasonable.

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» Perhaps there is no easy answer Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Another thought
Posted by: LPB on Oct 2, 2005 10:21 AM   
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Last night I had another thought regarding the abortion issue in general. In times past, before the medical advances we have now which make childbirth a much safer procedure than it used to be, husbands were asked during dangerous deliveries who to save, the mother or the child. Men were given the right to decide the fate of their wives. They were given more power over women's bodies than the women themselves. For that matter, historically, a husband had complete control over his wife. Many believed it was a husband's right, or even obligation, to discipline his wife in any way he saw fit if she did not obey him. He decided what she wore, where she lived, etc. These parental consent laws extend this attitude, giving parents more rights over a young woman's body than the girl herself.

Yes, ideally, girls should wait until they are more mature before becoming sexually active, but our society attacks their ability to do that every day. Young women and girls are encouraged to want to be sexually attractive, to dress in a sexy way, to flirt, etc. And when they are too successful at this, they are condemned for being a tease if they don't act on their sexual attractiveness or a slut if they do.

Children do have certain rights to control what happens to their bodies and their parents should teach them how to care for their bodies in a respectful way. Naturally, while children are learning how to do this their parents control such issues. If a young woman is pregnant, her parents have lost control already. Making her decision for her won't change that.

Historically, it was common for girls to be married and having children during their teen years. Expectations that a young woman will wait until her latter teen years or her twenties are relatively modern expectations.

Further, parental consent laws penalize the girl while allowing the boy, once again, to be unaccountable. Why are most abstinence programs directed at girls and not boys and why has the stigma attached to teen pregnancy fallen upon the girls and not the boys? Suppose the proposed law was changed so that the boy's parents had to be consulted first and they had to share in the responsibility?

Just some further thoughts on my part. Sorry they're not more structured. I hope some of you find these points interesting.

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» good thinking Posted by: beetruetoyou
The left-wing case against abortion
Posted by: jdb on Oct 3, 2005 6:19 AM   
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I would put my left-wing credentials up against anyone's, any day. I am active in my union, the local peace organization, the Sierra Club, and Amnesty International. I have lived and/or worked in African-American neighborhoods almost my entire adult life, including 3 years spent as a community organizer for a low-income people's group in my city's poorest neighborhood. I am pro-life because I am opposed to violence and in favor of human rights. I do not believe anyone should have the "right" to choose abortion, to kill an already-born person, to choose to start a war, or choose to make excessive amounts of money at the expense of their employees or customers.
Historically, any time people have wanted to kill others they have justified themselves by declaring the person they wish to kill a non-person. The organization Margaret Sanger founded, which went on to become Planned Parenthood, originally said its goal was "more children from the fit, fewer from the unfit." As a disabled, blue-collar, Native American woman with an African-American fiance, I can guess what Planned Parenthood--or most of you on Alternet--would say about my fitness to be a parent. I am the type of "non-person" you are hoping to eliminate by supporting abortion "rights."
Some responders to this article accused pro-lifers of being racist and sexist. I have always found the opposite. Polls show that abortion supporters are more likely to be upper-income, white, and male than are those of us who oppose abortion. Lower-income, minority women, after all, know that abortion is aimed at us and our children. I will never forget the weath(ier), white, Republican girls in my college dorm who said they supported abortion because, "Do you know how many little (extremely offensive epithet for "African-Americans" here) would be born if abortion were not legal?" Or the MoveOn.org meeting I attended in my hometown before the election, where a white guy from our city's richest neighborhood said, to great applause, he supported Kerry for President because "He supports abortion, so fewer Black crack babies will be born with him as President." (Apparently, he doesn't have a problem with "white, wine & Brie" babies.) I have found that anti-life men are less interested in promoting women's autonomy than in promoting their own "right" to have unprotected sex without having to worry about paying child support afterwards.

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» Bravo jdb! Posted by: La Femme Nikita
. . . and the feminist case
Posted by: jdb on Oct 3, 2005 6:34 AM   
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I believe feminism has been hurt, rather than helped, by promoting abortion "rights." Many women (again, especially women of color) who support equal rights, opportunities, and responsibilities for women, refuse to call themselves feminists because to do so would imply support for abortion. I have a question for those of you who say you are "pro-choice, not pro-abortion": have you ever, ever done anything to support a woman's right not to have an abortion? A few years ago, I had an employer who fired any woman (who worked for him) who became pregnant, unless she had an abortion (except his own daughter, who was the only woman at our company ever to take maternity leave). He did not, of course, fire men whose partners gave birth. Fortuneately, my union prevents this type of discrimination at my current workplace!
When I first became a feminist, back in the '70's, I was told we were working toward a society where the rights of working mothers would be respected, and all employers would be required to provide child care to employees who needed it. Could the reason we are so far from achieving this be that we have given employers a right to expect employees to have abortions?
Again, in the '70's, the debate about feminism revolved around women's abilities--did we have the intelligence to be doctors and lawyers, or the strength to be firefighters, construction workers or athletes? We have these abilities, plus one men do not: the ability to give life. So, of course, the ability which makes us different from them is seen as our "disability". (Why do we believe that if men can't do it, it must not be worthwhile?) What other group in our society is told that only surgery will give them the right to be treated as equals? If we oppose plastic surgery to make people of color "look white," should we not also oppose abortion to make women "like men" in our reproductive lives? Remember "Sisterhood is powerful"? Is not adoption the "sisterly" option we should be promoting, when it might keep a "sister" from having to undergo the often difficult, painful, expensive, in-vitro fertilization procedure?
By the way, I am personally acquainted with several pacifist, pro-life families who were on waiting lists to adopt disabled, minority babies (all had already given birth, but were unable to continue to do so) for so long, they were too old to raise a baby by the time they got to the top of the list.

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» Deep thinker!!! Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Deep thinker!!! Posted by: LPB
» Anger Posted by: La Femme Nikita
MORE BIG GOVERNMENT
Posted by: Jeffersonista on Oct 4, 2005 6:19 PM   
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Yes just what we need, more big government to tell us how to live our lives. Who needs personal moral values and judgement, when the state provides it all. What a relief, now we dont have to make difficult decisions and can just go ahead and have the baby by incest.

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» RE: MORE BIG GOVERNMENT Posted by: beetruetoyou
Personal Doubts Do Not Equal Public Policy.
Posted by: SanFranDuke on Oct 7, 2005 12:43 PM   
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While I have personal conserns about abortion, I cannot say that the state should in any way prevent the mother from aborting a fetus.

The so-called "Christian" right preaches the "value of human life," but they refer only to the fetus not to the woman carrying the child. If carrying that child is harmful to her health of if the mother will not be able to raise the child in a viable environment; who are we to say that she must bear that child?

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Why is it right?
Posted by: MSTHOM on Oct 20, 2005 6:46 AM   
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Why does the baby not get to choose? I am pro-reason. I feel that if a mother is in jeapordy medically, then an abortion is warranted. Also in cases of rape, incest, and other issues of that sort. But if a woman willingly engages in sex, and decides to not keep the child, why not give it up for adoption? Yes I understand that it is her body, but what about the father's right to his reproduction? Being physically impossible to carry the child, he has no say? To say that it is the womans body and that is the only reason to justify an abortion is to say the least very selfish.

Like I said before, if the woman is in danger because she is pregnant, then abortion may be the best way. But why punish an unborn human being for a "mistake" you have made? There are many ways for a woman to let her child live without killing it.

Also in the medical world, did you know that they have found proof that even an unborn child can feel fear? In the case of late term abortions, where partial birth is used. The process of the abortion causes the fetus's heart to beat rapidly, shake, and when they are stabbed in the back of the head, they tense violently before going limp.

But that is fair for the mother, right?

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