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Get Hitched, Young Woman

By Ruth Rosen, TomPaine.com. Posted September 29, 2005.


The Bush administration only believes in accountability and personal responsibility when it involves women's sexuality and their reproductive choices.

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Why have "out-of wedlock" pregnancies suddenly entered the national debate over President's Bush's astonishingly incompetent failure to rescue the poor in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina?

The answer is obvious: It's a great way to change the subject, and to remind us that in contemporary America, only unmarried mothers fail to demonstrate "personal responsibility."

Never mind that neither the Pentagon nor Congress can account for the $200 billion that have been spent waging war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or that George W. Bush has saddled the nation with a monstrous national debt. Never mind that he sent tens of thousands of young people to Iraq on cooked-up intelligence and that no government official has taken responsibility for the torture of prisoners. Or that Afghanistan is once again the world's leading exporter of narcotics. Never mind that Bush chose Michael D. Brown, an inexperienced and incompetent crony, to run FEMA, with disastrous consequences.

The Bush administration only believes in accountability and personal responsibility when it involves women's sexuality and their reproductive choices.

Consider what's happened ever since Katrina stormed through the Gulf Coast. For the first time since the 1960s, Americans watching the news rediscovered poverty. Suddenly, everyone could see that Bush's tax cuts to the wealthy had not, in fact, lifted all Americans into the middle class.

What a perfect moment to change the subject and blame poor African-American women for causing the poverty the world witnessed in the aftermath of Katrina.

Without skipping a beat, Rich Lowry, editor of the National Review, proclaimed that the "The root of it [the poverty exposed by Katrina] is the breakdown of the family. Roughly 60 percent of births in New Orleans are out of wedlock."

Lowry then went on to propose a "grand right-left bargain that includes greater attention to out-of-wedlock births from the left in exchange for the right's support for more urban spending…"

Clueless liberals quickly accepted Lowry's clever reframing of the problem. Nicholas Kristof embraced it as an "excellent suggestion" in his New York Times column. Even former Sen. John Edwards, who attacked Bush for supporting the privileged, rather than the poor after Katrina, called on everyone to speak "hard truths" about the out-of wedlock pregnancies that condemn so many people to perpetual poverty.

Don't get me wrong. Stable two-parent families--absent violence, drugs or alcohol--usually offer children the best chance to escape poverty. But Lowry and his cheerleaders have it backwards. The decline in teenage pregnancies since the early 1990s, particularly among African-American girls, indicates that young women are, in fact, taking greater personal responsibility.

As New York Times reporter Jason DeParle revealed in his book American Dream, it is poverty itself -- not a lack of personal responsibility--that is the main reason for single-parent families. With amazing gall, conservatives have shredded the safety net and then blamed unmarried mothers for their own neglect-the-poor policies.

Spending millions of dollars to promote marriage and sexual abstinence, for example, has not improved the "personal responsibility" of poor boys and men. Eliminating contraception from sex education classes, restricting access to abortion, and postponing the "morning after" pill has not changed the fact that we still have higher teen pregnancy rates in the United States than in Europe. Ending welfare--without providing affordable child care and health care, paid family leave and a higher minimum wage---hasn't kept working women and their families from plunging below the poverty line.

Poor women, moreover, are not the only ones choosing to raise children by themselves. Single women--across all racial and class lines--are now the fastest growing demographic group in our population. One-third of American women are currently single, and growing numbers of them are choosing to bear and raise children alone. Despite conservatives' glorification of "family values" and "the traditional family," only one-quarter of American households now include two parents and children.

The reasons why so many women are remaining unmarried differ considerably, but they are not all that mysterious. Having gained a minimal degree of independence as paid workers, some are unwilling to put up with abusive or violent relationships. Still others may be reluctant to settle for anything less than a partner committed to an egalitarian marriage.

The fact is, women's lives have dramatically changed during the last 40 years, but neither our government nor our society have made the necessary changes that should have accompanied the entry of such huge numbers of women into the labor force.

Meanwhile, social conservatives gaze upon the human consequences of their policies, are embarrassed by what they see, and then attack unmarried mothers for their lack of personal responsibility--and condemn them for the poverty exposed by Katrina.

A nifty argument, if they can get away with it.

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Ruth Rosen, professor emeritus at U.C. Davis and senior fellow at the Longview Institute, is the author, most recently, of "The World Split Open: How the Modern Women’s Movement Changed America."

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Unmarried teen pregnancies have gone up under Bush's watch
Posted by: ShaSpirit on Sep 29, 2005 12:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The slow decline of teenager having babies went down in the 1990s and when Bush and company took over it started to rise once more. This many sound stupid, but when you tell kids they cannot do something, what is the first thing they do? They find a way to break that rule. It is a rule of family counseling and every parent knows it once you call their attention to it. Watch any group of young kids and you will find this is truly a social law of action.

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» Right on.. Posted by: ashifrass
Great Article!
Posted by: MegOnTheMountain on Sep 29, 2005 3:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for bringing more attention to this. I've often wondered how anyone can seriously call for personal responsibility and accountability from the poor - or anyone else for that matter - with such a complete lack of these things from anyone in power. Actually "lack" is putting it much too put it mildly; how about "spit right in the face"?

And while it's despicable for pricks like Lowry to turn the blame for the Katrina debacle around onto poor, unwed mothers in Louisiana, it's par for the course for that bastard and the rest of the neocons. I'd expect nothing less. It's more repugnant to me that John Edwards jumped on the bandwagon too! I thought maybe the poor in this country had half a voice through him. To blame poverty itself on this country's poor, unwed mothers... What remarkably circular logic!

In Oregon, teen pregnancy has dropped dramatically in the last 9 years, and was at a 15-year low in 2004. Yet, the number of children living in poverty has risen (19.1% of kids under 18 lived in poverty in OR in 2004, an 8% increase over the last year alone!) 45% of children age 6 and under live in low-income families.

Welfare reform is a travesty and punishes struggling single mothers who have no other legal means to keep their families together. This is a topic I've studied in detail - as well as experienced first hand - and I could go off for quite awhile... but I won't. At least not yet...

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Poverty's the problem - not single or unwed mothers
Posted by: philame on Sep 29, 2005 5:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The discussion should be about which economic and work place factors help families (regardless of their form) function better and which practices make family life unduly difficult. Singling out one family form - the single parent household - as the problem is completely unproductive.

As the author pointed out, single mothers aren't the problem and singling them out as the problem is so archaic. To share a personal account in true genX style: there are two single mothers in my family - my sister and my cousin (and two male cousins that were single fathers). We are all middle class though and the children are turning out fine (by middle class standards at least!).

My sister at age 30 and my female cousin (a little younger) became single mothers by choice. My cousin lived as an "unwed mother" with the father of her child for the first 10 or so years of the child's life and their child just started college at a great 4-year university - is that a sign of failed parenting on her part? Not according to the middle class.

My sister's child is still young but she is doing fine and just started a new relationship with a middle class man who has kids from a previous relationship. I could very well have children with my partner without getting married because marriage isn't so important to us.

I am saying all this to say that ECONOMICS not family style is the problem. I would rather see a discussion of why links to a man makes or breaks the ability of many families to sustain themselves. I'd also like to see a debate that admits socio-economic status is also a key determinant of whether single-parent families can make it without struggling as much.

The fact that the single parents in my family are middle class makes a huge difference. That the biological fathers are also middle class and provide financial support (and play a parenting role in my cousin's case) also makes a difference too.

I am not anti-traditional family, I just cannot tolerate sweeping generalizations about "single parents". I shared my story to give a face to real single and unwed mothers of the middle class variety - a growing demographic.

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» I live in California Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» I mean domestic partner Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: I mean domestic partner Posted by: Doubtom
» Hey Bornxeyed, stop putting me down Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» LOL drmeow Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Reason my dear bornxeyed Posted by: La Femme Nikita
agitator church and state
Posted by: eileenflmng on Sep 29, 2005 6:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thinking people understand morality extends far beyond ones personal sexual preferences and activities.

This Administration is flailing around looking for any scapegoat they can find to keep the heat off the real issues of morality: WAR, abject poverty in a land of excess, incompetent governing on all levels, lieing and covering up, citizens without health coverage,
.... I could go on and on but already have...

www.wearewideawake.org

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Unwed fathers?
Posted by: moonpowered on Sep 29, 2005 7:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It never ceases to amaze me that of unwed parents, mothers, the ones who typically take responsibility for raising their children, get blamed for any number of ills - in this case, for not taking responsibility and for, of all things, poverty itself!

There are several underlying messages here: 1) it's ok for boys to have sex, but not for girls, & 2) it's ok for anyone who is financially middle-class or above to have sex, but not for those who struggle financially.

If the discussion were really about responsibility, it would focus on fathers who don't want children yet don't practice birth control and who then, by the thousands, abandon their children, leaving the entire responsibility for their care and well-being in the mothers' hands.

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» RE: Unwed fathers? Posted by: philame
» RE: Unwed fathers? Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Unwed fathers? Posted by: cstriker
» RE: Unwed fathers? Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Unwed fathers? Posted by: LPB
» I agree with LPB Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Unwed fathers? Posted by: tessd
» RE: Unwed fathers? Posted by: bornxeyed
» God have mercy bornxeyed Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: God have mercy bornxeyed Posted by: Doubtom
» What is your intention Doubtom Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Grace Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» here we go again Posted by: beetruetoyou
» yo bee baby check my comment Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Unwed fathers? Posted by: clarasam
Distraction
Posted by: jwg on Sep 29, 2005 8:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I could not agree more with most of the comments above, the one point that the author was making that is most germane to me:

Neocons are up to their old game of distracting the conversation from what they are doing wrong.

Have you forgotten the 'family values' issue raised in the last election?

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» RE: Distraction - yes and Posted by: philame
Fornication, Sacrophobia and Biblical Studies
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 29, 2005 8:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I got in a discussion with greenthinginwater, where are you buddy, about this topic back when Katrina first hit, and it hit me so hard, I had to join a biblical studies group for professional scholars and discuss it, this unwed mother business. Boy did I get the smackdown from the professors! The Amercian Protestant Fundamentalist religion is so false, it is not even funny. These guys are out there TOTALLY misleading the general public with their BULLSHIT morality. They prey on the ignorant and the stupid. I CANT STAND IT. Sex IS NOT the greatest sin and NEITHER IS UNWED MOTHERHOOD. This is coming from a group of international UNIVERSITY PROFESSORS.

Ok, now comments on the article:

1. "Without skipping a beat, Rich Lowry, editor of the National Review, proclaimed that the "The root of it [the poverty exposed by Katrina] is the breakdown of the family. Roughly 60 percent of births in New Orleans are out of wedlock."

So this is the bullshit greenthinginwater and I were arguing about that sent me to the biblical studies. I told him and I will tell you, WHO CARES IN WEDLOCK OUT OF WEDLOCK. I was born out of wedlock. Parents are still together. Since '67. My child was born in wedlock. Divorcing my alcoholic violent husband after 5 years of marriage. Uh-huh. Go figure. Uh Rich, answer that. Frankly I am DISILLUSIONED about the whole SACRAMENT OF MARRIAGE. It is BULLSHIT.

2 ."The reasons why so many women are remaining unmarried differ considerably, but they are not all that mysterious. Having gained a minimal degree of independence as paid workers, some are unwilling to put up with abusive or violent relationships. Still others may be reluctant to settle for anything less than a partner committed to an egalitarian marriage."

uh, yeah right. This could be applied to why women divorce too. I for one was QUITE INDEPENDENT before I MARRIED, yes I, and I AM TAKING MY INDEPENDENCE BACK. Thank you very much. I do not care about poverty. I REFUSE to answer to SOME MAN.

And you know what? It is bad in the South. I aint from the Dirty South, but I visited the Dirty South, and let me tell you, I DID NOT LIKE IT. Womens be serving the mens while they sit on the couch with their feet up watching the football game. I mean this is the DYNAMIC. Forget it!

And George Bush needs to SHUT UP with his ALCOHOLIC self. Work the program buddy.

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Forget marriage - we need to bring back the extended family
Posted by: CrystalD on Sep 29, 2005 9:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that all this talk about how women need to get married for the sake of their kids misses the boat. Forget the nuclear family - that's really inadequate to meet most people's needs. What we really should be talking about is how to bring back the extended family, whether by blood or by choice.

The anthropologist Sarah Blaffer Hrdy writes in "Mother Nature" that humans are cooperative breeders. That is, it's not just the parents pitching in to raise the kids, it's the whole family or village - much like how the whole pack raises wolf cubs.

Any anthropologist will tell you about the diversity of family forms around the world. And most would agree that the American norm - the isolated nuclear family - is not so for most people and has never been so. The Moso of China do not have marriage at all - households are comprised of brothers and sisters living together with an elder woman as its head. Women and their brothers together raise the women's children by transient relationships.

An instructor I had for a class on Native American history - a Cherokee woman - told us that in her nation and many others, a woman could go through several husbands in her lifetime, but her bond with her brothers was forever. Siblings had priority over spouses.

And oh yes - in most tribal societies, men were expected to be caring and responsible, not distant, aloof, and obsessed with material goodies. While divorce could be easily obtained for both men and women, it wasn't the "let's treat my spouse like furniture and trade her/him in for someone better" frivolous divorce one so often sees in America.

My point being that I don't think our family set-up is functional, for the poor OR the rich. Even a wealthy happily-married couple has so much pressure on them if they are expected to be each other's "soul mate" and "everything." It's not natural to put all one's emotional eggs into the marriage basket! And it's not natural for JUST the parents to raise the kids. What we really need is to revive a broader web of caring for everyone.

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» I agree! Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: I agree! Posted by: CrystalD
» RE: I agree too Posted by: philame
Forget all of this and send the Christian Activists a message
Posted by: cstriker on Sep 29, 2005 9:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to the Hebrew and Christian texts, God gave us the right to choose. Why are individual moral responsibilities being turned into general public laws? Who gave those people the right to decide for me, my wife, mother, brother, sister, cousin, or friends what we can and cannot do with our bodies or souls?

This issue extends far beyond unwed mothers. It goes to abortion, gay marriage, assisted suicide, war, and so many other issues that are too numerous to list.

If I was a Christian or Jew, and I knew that God gave us all the right to choose, then I would expect it to remain that way in law. I would not try to ram my beliefs down others throats. Jesus, God says spread the word, but nowhere does it say force those to comply to my word.

I can understand some laws. Seat belts, helmets, murder, theft, guidelines for campaign contributions, and business law. But I don't understand not being able to get the same legal rights of a male and female in marriage (just for example). OK, when I got married I had a choice. I could go before a judge or some other legal authority and get married by the law or I could go before a pastor (or other religious figure) and do it before the lord (or god or whatever my PERSONAL CHOICE) to be married legally as will as in the face of my religion. So if we have this choice, why can't gays have the choice of a legal union? The only reason there is law involved is for taxes and seperations.

We can agree you shouldn't be able to murder people, why can't we agree that we don't have the right to make moral decisions for individuals?

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» Maybe the reason is... Posted by: Envi
» RE: Maybe the reason is... Posted by: cstriker
» RE: Maybe the reason is... Posted by: churchofone
» RE: Maybe the reason is... Posted by: cstriker
» Living by the Big Ten Posted by: mr. joshua
duh
Posted by: quixotic on Sep 29, 2005 1:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Still others may be reluctant to settle for anything less than a partner committed to an egalitarian marriage."

ya think?

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» Reflections on Ephesians 5:22-33 Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Egalitarian Marriage
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 29, 2005 2:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Requires a conscious man and a conscious woman.
Lakshmi is right. The blogosphere is sexist. And perhaps those are not her exact words, but they are mine.
Oh sure I have gotten some bullshit from women who act like men. Like I told Adam, a woman can be a male chauvinist pig. It is a mentality.
Come on folks have some compassion. Not everybody has access to education. And if you are sick of hearing about my personal story, ignore my comments.
This is my experience, strength and hope.
My mother in law got married because she got pregnant outside of wedlock. She was 16 or 17. She is Creole.
Let us talk about egalitarian marriage in the Creole community. Can anyone offer any experience, strength and hope on that?
And as far as my marriage goes, I married out of guilt. I can offer experience, strength and hope about marriage in a American Protestant Fundamentalist Cult Orthodox church. Any one able to offer similiar experience, strength and hope?

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Marriage in the Dirty South
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 29, 2005 3:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All right folks how many of you can offer experience strength and hope about marriage in the Dirty South? How many of you live in the Dirty South? How many of you are black?
Race does matter.
My family has roots in LA.
Do you know the black family is matriarchal?
You must know that.
Well, matriarchy is not all its cracked up to be. Its not good. Its dependency. I would venture to say many of you men who have been attacking me on here, and you women to, come from the south. No, the men. This is a feminist board.
Why do you people criticize what you do not understand?
The American Left has such a narrow point of view it is astounding.
How many commentators on here are folks of color?
How many folks on here are impoverished?
Uneducated?
Its one thing to talk the talk. What about walking the walk?
I am glad I make all of you uncomfortable. Most of the world is uncomfortable.
We do not deserve our comfort.

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If you want to have kids.....
Posted by: clarasam on Sep 29, 2005 5:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....you have to be financially and emotionally ready whether you're "hitched" or not. There are WAY too many single mothers living below the poverty line having children when they have no business having children....and way too many young men that think condoms are a nuisance. In the inner city, this is becoming an epidemic.
It's very sad to see this happening. I understand it's not the only thing that leads to poverty, but I happen to think it's the biggest reason.
Children should be raised by parents, not taxpayers.

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» RE: If you want to have kids..... Posted by: MegOnTheMountain
» RE: If you want to have kids..... Posted by: MegOnTheMountain
» RE: If you want to have kids..... Posted by: MegOnTheMountain
» RE: If you want to have kids..... Posted by: MegOnTheMountain
» I agree with you, Clarasam Posted by: janvdb
» I agree with you, Jan, sort of... Posted by: MegOnTheMountain
Let's talk about why young black men want to have kids
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 29, 2005 6:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reasons my ex gave were
1. Because he used to live with a woman who had a kid and he thought she was cute.
2. Because he wanted to see if everything worked.

This was the mentality of a 24 year old black man.

Ever heard the saying "you can take the nigga out of the ghetto but ya cant take the ghetto out of the nigga?"

And when asking a young mixed biracial whatever you want to call it female friend of mine, or I should say talking to her about situation, she said "most men want to see their seed".

So I don't know about all y'all American liberal elite, but that is the mentality of the young Cali blacks.

Ever heard those songs on the radio "18 years 18 years 18 years she gotcha for 18 years I aint no gold digger"

Or perhaps I should share with you the story of my black girlfriend who works at the grocery store who just had baby number two and now her man is off pounding someone else.

Uh-huh. And her and the girl are in a cat fight. Uh-huh.

What are all you American liberal lefts doing about that?

These stories are real, coming to you straight out of Cali, in 2005.

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» Ok here we go. Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Ok here we go. Posted by: philame
» RE: Ok here we go. Posted by: beetruetoyou
» Bee STOP BEING A BULLY Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» I apologize Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Enjoy your love affair Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Meg are you trying to intimidate me? Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» hmmm, i asked the same Posted by: beetruetoyou
» Bee, why do you care so much? Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Don't give up. Posted by: beetruetoyou
» BEE you are a patronizing B Posted by: La Femme Nikita
ndunn
Posted by: ndunn on Sep 29, 2005 8:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you are a poor young woman, whatever race, and are at the end of your rope, what nicer thing could there be than someone to take and interest in you, to make you feel more whole, to care about you--there is so little care in the world. For a moment of intimacy and caring, a new life can be created and I feel so bad that many have to feel that only fleetingly. We have no steps to adulthood in the u.s., no real community pride in the individuals who make up the bulk of us, who can place any blame on those who seek to feel wanted?

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Rites of Passage
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 29, 2005 8:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well folks we are right back to that topic we were discussing on WireTap last month.
So, I propose that conception and impregnation is a rite of passage. Yep. There we have it. Ndunn. You win the prize. You got it!
So. Now what?

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Nikita has done it again
Posted by: gp on Sep 29, 2005 10:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I leave for a little while and look what happens: Nikita/Olympiada manages to alienate two more people.

Somehow, regardless of what the original post was about, conversations in Alternet seem to rotate towards Nikita's sex life, her abusive ex-husband, her religion, family, college studies, etc. We usually wind up there after Nikita has been slinging mud around, offended someone(s), and then getting offended herself and defensive when people call her on it.

Nikita: It is obvious you want to vent your feelings and anger. Please look for someone who can help you channel those feelings in a more constructive and positive way. Someone who has the education and training. I am going to guess and say that most people here at Alternet do not have that education or training. I know I don't. And, at any rate, a chat room is not the ideal forum.

As a final note: In my humble opinion, we all know too much about you already. Alternet is a safe neighbourhood, but trolls walk by, you know?

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» Alienation Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» One saving grace .... Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» Pleasure Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Pleasure Posted by: aedwards
» Oh I am having fun now Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» I'm sure you are Posted by: beetruetoyou
» B, SHUT UP Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Bodies of Evidence
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 29, 2005 10:58 PM   
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This discussion has given me a heartache. I want to share with you all an article I got from an Orthodox blogger. I have had it out with this woman. She is a big figure in the Orthodox world. This is the secular world. Ok. But I wanted to share this with you. I roasted this lady about another article and that was that. I have trouble with the Orthodox world too.

Michiganman, I straddle the divide.

Now here is one article:Bodies of Evidence: The Real Meaning of Sex and here is the counter argument, at least according to Frederica Mathewes Green:http://www.lilyburana.com/

I am only allowed one link per comment.
Do not worry cyclone, I will not give out to much information, but sovinformburo, don't provoke me either.
Now here is a paragraph from this article Bodies of Evidence that I think is relevant to some discussion I just read that hurt my heart:
" But that doesn’t have anything to do with love; it can even be the opposite of love. I recently read a review of a book titled Strip City, written by a woman, Lily Burana, who traveled across the nation working at strip clubs. She says that we’re living in an era of “sex-positive feminism.” She calls herself a “gender warrior,” and says that when she dances, she can feel “all the hearts in the room gathered into the palm of my hand.”

Well, that’s a lot of power. Yet she doesn’t feel tenderness toward those gathered hearts. The reviewer says that Burana “relished taunting men because she is revolted by their erotic neediness.” It’s a battle, for this “gender warrior.” Make war, not love.

Here’s something else. Burana says that her work represents new liberation for women’s sexuality. She says we live in a period when “the notion of female desire is being re-evaluated.” But does stripping have anything to do with the woman’s sexual desires? It looks like it’s all about male desire, provoking and despising and ridiculing that. Once again, sex means male desire. For women, stripping isn’t about a deeper understanding of their own sexuality, but about a substitute thrill: the experience of power. A power that doesn’t have much to do with love."

Lord have mercy!

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Alienation Part 2
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 29, 2005 11:20 PM   
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I see I have caused many of you discomfort. Good. You think the rest of the world is comfortable?
It is not.
The internet is not a safe place.
Alternet is not a safe place.
Let us never ever forget that.
Each character we type on the keyboard stands in front of 1.5 million people for ever.
All of us.
Each letter.

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Arranged Marriage
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 30, 2005 10:55 AM   
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I spoke to an Muslim Indian friend this morning and she is happy in her arranged marriage. So this is the position I take on marriage and sexuality this morning. End of discussion. I believe in arranged marriage now. And I have been thinking about this for many years.
It is outside the realm of liberal American politics. Yes, I am very traditional. So am I conservative? If you want to see it that way. So am I the enemy? If you want to see it that way.

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» RE: Arranged Marriage Posted by: kittynboi
» No Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Conservatives create poverty by allowing men to abandon their children, guilt-tripping abortion
Posted by: janvdb on Sep 30, 2005 5:26 PM   
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I agree with the conservatives that a "collapse of morals" and "habitual behavior problems" are a big part of what is causing poverty in America.

The "collapse of morals" would be the failure of all these women, under pressure from conservatives, to abort these fetuses whose fathers don't want to support them. Mothers have a responsibility to limit their fertility to situations which will result in a fully endowed, cared for, competitive child.

This is accepted, conventional behavior in Europe and Japan. Only in America is it considered "conservative" to have poorly timed, unwanted, unprovided-for, poverty-stricken children.

The conservatives are trying to force women to have children into immorally inadequate situations as a way to punish women for having had sex.

Sex is not the problem; failing to use birth control and, if that fails, then, ultimately, the failure to abort properly is the MORAL COLLAPSE of our generation.

The "habitual behavioral problems" are the way men are free to abandon their children, that allowed by our conservative laws and customs.

We need laws changed so that every baby gets a DNA test first day and every baby who doesn't have a DNA-matched father listed on his birth certificate becomes a ward of state. Picked up by social services and adopted out at birth. Regardless of what the mother wants -- if there is no willing father, she is a bad mother period already.

Lesbians and pre-planning, well-employed women can use sperm banks, which should be left exempt from these provisions.

If you can't afford a sperm bank, you can't afford a kid.

Then, those DNA-matched fathers should have their social security numbers permanently connected the the SS# of their offspring and the paternity payments delivered in services -- day care, medical care, insurance, tutoring, college -- to that child via through a national daycare system which provides 9-hour-per day care plus escrow accounting to every child in the USA.

The payments would be collected from all fathers by the IRS indistinguishably from the father's taxes and placed in an escrow account earmarked for the child.

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» I like your thinking Jan Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Conservatives create poverty by allowing men to abandon children, guilt-tripping abortion, continued
Posted by: janvdb on Sep 30, 2005 5:37 PM   
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So, yes, under this proposed new system, which would rid of us of conservative "morals" which allow a man to abandon his child whenever he wants and leave the whole thing to be dealt with by the mother, a woman who is also being barked at by conservatives to bear any child she becomes pregnant with regardless of the inadequacy of the situation into which the child may come -- yes, siring a child would RAISE a non-custodial parent's, usually a father's taxes.

And, that additional money would go directly and exclusively into an account from which the custodial parent could draw for expenses related to that child. All children would become instantly eligible for a broad array of social services paid for with that money. Each child would have, in effect, an escrow account with his SS# attached filled from his father's (or non-custodial parent's (s')) taxes which the child, with his custodial parent's or grandparent's help, could tap for anything from well baby care to infant day care to college tuition.

Every child a wanted child and every child an escrow account!!

If the biological parents of a child were living together, married or not, the payments would be a wash, as both parents would be custodial and be the beneficiaries of the account. Both parents could apply for re-imbursement of receipts for expense for the child or use the free child care, tutoring, dental care, medical care and insurance and so on.

Why isn't such a system in place? Europe has similar provisions, though without the specific connection between an individual father and an individual child? Because America is to CONSERVATIVE. We want to blame women for everything. And, women continue to have children despite the lack of adequate social services to support those children in a decent and respectable manner. European birth rates have plummeted and European governments have responded by helping mothers. American women just keep dumping out kids, no matter how crappy things get.

And it is the CONSERVATIVES with their pressure on women to have poorly-timed, unwanted, fatherless children and their free pass to men to walk off or walk back whenever they like who are leading our nation into the moral collapse and habitual negative behavior patterns which are creating poverty in America.

continued below . . .

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» Bravo! Bravo! Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Conservatives create poverty by allowing men to abandon children, guilt-tripping abortion, continued
Posted by: janvdb on Sep 30, 2005 5:38 PM   
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If everyone where LIBERAL and enlightened, we wouldn't have all these unwanted, fatherless children. We wouldn't have all this poverty.

The conservatives are feeding into and then feeding off of poverty in America. They need the poor, welfare-dependent mother with her brood of abandoned, fatherless children to beat upon and blame everything upon.

They need to keep abandonment as a threat to every woman and child in America, so we will all know that men are in control, with the government, the legal system and the police behind them. We need to know that only by PLEASING THE MAN shall we eat. Yes, conservatives want to keep men free to walk away, so they can keep women begging for a little help with that baby. Keep women where they belong.

Broke and holding an innocent child, begging the man.

The conservatives don't want women and children to have a RIGHT to a father's money regardless of how they act. That would get the women uppity.

Yes, it is conservative policies which are creating familial collapse, fatherlessness, poverty, undereducation and over-population in America.

It's the conservatives who stand in the way of making fathers responsible, because they want to keep women down and men free.

Jan VanDenBerg

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» Men Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» something else Posted by: aedwards
» RE: something else Posted by: janvdb
Thank you for your strength Jan here and on the discussion about Sexual Harrassment
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 30, 2005 11:53 PM   
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You helped me to stand up STRONG as woman STRONG. I do not think you all realized the HELL I am going through to define my reproductive choices. You do not want to know the BULLSHIT mentality I had to overcome to be sitting here typing these words right now.
Have some compassion for misled young people. American Protestant Fundamentalism is an evil evil evil thing and very powerful. Do NOT underestimate it. Our President is the MOST Fundamentalist president in our history.
Do NOT forget that for a millisecond.
And
He
Is
A
Drunk

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» Drunk Part 2 Posted by: La Femme Nikita
still poor
Posted by: Gail Kerr on Oct 1, 2005 2:00 PM   
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It is interesting, all the theories on why single mothers are poor but I never see the one that I have ALWAYS found to be the case when advocating for poor single Moms...LACK OF CHILD SUPPORT!!!! Oh yeah, Mine was reduced by the Family court Judge to $7.50 a month. Yes, this number is corect..AND his wages had to be garnihished at that. The courts take into consideration tha husbands current expenses, which includes his cureent family. When is the LAW going to end the cycle of poverty created by lack of ADEQUATE responsibility by absent spouse??

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Interessting Idea
Posted by: aedwards on Oct 1, 2005 5:53 PM   
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Why dosn't a man get the right to choose? What if I want to have a child I discuss it with my partner we decide it is a good thing and 5months into the pregnacy she gives up and has an abortion. I would carry the baby if it where possible. why must I be pursicuted because I happened to have been born male? what options am I left with? find a woman I don't love but is willing or adopt. niether idea is as apealing to me as having a child with the woman I love.
just a few thoughts that you all will tear apart. aedwardsone@yahoo.com

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» RE: Interessting Idea Posted by: LPB
The mens got feelings too ladies
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Oct 1, 2005 8:14 PM   
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All right pardon my grammar slang. But I dont care. Hey look, if we are gonna have any hope at all, ladies, we gots to get along with the mens? All right? I will have NO PART in this gender war. NONE.

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Parents
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Oct 1, 2005 10:14 PM   
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I sure hope that some of you do not treat your children the way you have treated young people on this discussion board because it is abusive.
How many of you parents and baby boomers have looked at your own abusive natures?
I would venture to say the reason a teenager gets pregnant is because she comes from an abusive home. After this latest string of comments, it has become clear to me.
A pregnant teenager is a victim in so many sense of the word, it is tragic. Absolutely tragic. She deserves are utmost compassion. She is a minor. Minors deserve protection.
Oh I am sickened.
I was abused by my mother as a minor.
That is why I had sex as a teenager.
It is sickening this whole discussion.
It is pointing out the rottenness in our country.
I am disturbed by the hostility some of you exhibit.
I hope those of you who are parents do not abuse your children.
Please God, no.
You want to refer me to some web site.
Well I got one for you
Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse Site
Ever heard of verbal abuse?
It is taking place right here on this discussion.
It is abusive when people use their superior age to dominate another person. That is called being a bully. This kind of treatment will drive a teenage girl to seek love in the arms of a teenage boy and get pregnant.
It is the parents fault every time a minor gets pregnant.

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» are all teenagers stupid? Posted by: aedwards
» apology Posted by: aedwards
» what Mennonites really believe Posted by: beetruetoyou
» How do you account for: Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» don't know that i can Posted by: beetruetoyou
» RE: don't know that i can Posted by: eastcoker
I said it once and I will say it again. Married or unmarried, it makes no difference.
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Oct 2, 2005 2:49 PM   
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The conservatives are missing the point.
What causes poor people to have children?
Some of you all addressed this in your comments. This is what we need to look at. What is motivating poor people to reproduce. I do not buy the biology argument. I think we need to take a good compassionate look at what is causing the poor population to reproduce it self and offer alternatives to whatever needs poor people are trying to meet by reproduction.
That is what I have to say about this issue today.
Someone once told me to stare into the darkness into until I saw through it. Well, poverty is darkness. I suggest we stare into the darkness of poverty in American until we can see through it.
I am astounded this is the first time the general public has been made aware of poverty since the 60's. I have been aware of poverty since I left home at 18, and that was way after the 60's.

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» why? Posted by: aedwards
» Your theory is wrong Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» The Sacrament of Love Posted by: La Femme Nikita
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