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Evolved Again

By Annalee Newitz, AlterNet. Posted September 21, 2005.


Intelligent design has become so popular in part because it tells us we are the peak of evolution.

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Apparently it's big news that the human brain is still evolving. A couple of U.S. researchers announced recently that they'd isolated two genes connected with brain size that appeared to have evolved only over the past two dozen millennia. In other words, our brains changed in the past hundred generations. Why this would be surprising to anyone even glancingly familiar with evolutionary theory is beyond me. As long as we keep engaging in sexual reproduction, we're going to be evolving. The process ain't teleological, people.

Greg Wray, a Duke University evolutionary genomics professor involved with the study, told the Associated Press, "There's a sense that we as humans have kind of peaked." But, he added, "it's almost impossible for evolution not to happen."

Nevertheless, people both in and out of the scientific community were bemused by the study. I'm tempted to say that's because the intelligent design dorks are making so many headlines that any new information about evolution -- particularly that it's still happening in an observable fashion -- pricks up our ears. But I think what this study calls attention to is the kind of weird folk belief, alluded to by Wray, that somehow we've stopped evolving. Partly this is because the Darwinian tradition is focused on the past. This is what sets evolutionary theory apart from social and political theories of human change, which often examine how the species can change itself today in order to influence the future.

I bring up politics because I think they're ultimately to blame for our short-sighted view of evolution as a process that started 200 million years ago and ended roughly in the mid-19th century, when Darwin started freaking everybody out with his ideas about humans and apes. Few people are comfortable with the idea that they're just one step in a journey toward some other thing that will probably be much cooler and better than they are. That's why intelligent design has become so popular. It's an idea that makes evolution all about who we are right now, because somebody has been guiding everything to this exact point. In other words, we are totally perfect, and nothing will ever be better. Nice try.

Thankfully, the current version of homo sapiens is just that: a current version. We can take some pride in that. We're the very latest thing. We have features previous versions didn't have, like extra height and complicated symbolic systems for communicating. Even better, we now have a basic understanding of how we evolved. Plus, this version of homo sapiens can change itself with science faster than the previous versions could with sexual reproduction.

For example: We are about to have children born of three parents. Some medical researchers in the U.K. have announced they'll be experimenting with creating human embryos that have genetic material from two mothers and a father. The idea is to cure certain diseases inherited through maternal genetic material called mitochondrial DNA that exists outside the cell nucleus (where most DNA is housed). These babies will have one woman's nuclear DNA, another woman's mitochondrial DNA, and more nuclear DNA from the man.

How's that for changing the course of evolution? A human with three genetic parents is definitely a novel version of homo sapiens.

Of course, the people who believe that only some godlike creature or "nature" should be in charge of upgrading the species also think this is a naughty idea. Josephine Quintavalle, a rep for public interest group Comment on Reproductive Ethics, told the BBC, "It is undesirable to create children in this way. It will shock the world." Her response reminds me of the sort of thing an intelligent design adherent would say. Essentially she's arguing that we shouldn't continue to evolve, even though that's impossible.

Personally I prefer to believe that we're living in the prehistory of humankind. Nine thousand years from now, I want archeologists to dig up San Francisco from centuries of earthquake-dislodged muck and exclaim, "Wow, there was a city here!" I want my beautiful town to be like Uruk, one of the oldest cities ever discovered, whose culture and politics are as foreign to us now as San Francisco's will be to the latest version of homo sapiens. If we and our backward ways are not going to become history, then I have no hope for the future.

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Annalee Newitz is a surly media nerd who has been touched by the noodly appendage of the flying spaghetti monster.

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Like I said before...
Posted by: kleer001 on Sep 21, 2005 10:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Long live the new flesh!

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Evolution does not mean achieving perfection
Posted by: drmeow on Sep 21, 2005 11:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the biggest fallacies about evolution is that the process somehow will eventually make us perfect or even that evolution makes us "better." Evolution is about adaptation. Take Sickle Cell Anemia - this disease was an evolved adaptation to living in areas with the risk for malaria as it had protective benefits in that situation. People with sickle cell anemia were more likely to live long enough successfully reproduce (i.e., their babies were more likely to survive infancy and childhood to become reproducing adults) in malaria ridden areas thereby making the disease adaptive for survivial of the species. That doesn't make the disease good. Another example - age of menstruation. Early menstruation may be adaptive for survival of the species - but it appears to also put woman at risk for gene based/hereditary breast cancer. The point is ... adaptation is not necessarily better or leading to perfection - it just means your offspring will be more likely to reproduce, even though that adaptation might kill you earlier than someone else.

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» A gene that protects from AIDS? Posted by: eosinglemum
» The gene for aids: Common sense Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Of course you are right... Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Danger Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: The gene for HIV resistance ... Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» Attaboy Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: The gene for HIV resistance ... Posted by: ABetterFuture
Not Design but Desire
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Sep 21, 2005 12:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eventually folks will pick up on the fact that we are just reflections on consciencness. As consciencness defines itself it's desire to take shape evolves into all that we see. The grass,rocks,animals and us are just small parts in this great Life. We're not the top of the heap,Destined to Rule or Overlords of the Earth. We are only small insignificant,albiet highly self aware,bits of Life. Just a part,a speck on the windshield of Existance and given the way we treat eachother,
we're lucky if we deserve that much credit.

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» RE: Not Design but Desire Posted by: gazevans
» RE: Not Design but Desire Posted by: leftylawyer
the face of evolution
Posted by: petermiller on Sep 21, 2005 1:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I enjoyed your column, but have two comments:

Your column distorts the views of religious objectors to evolution. The religious view is not that 'we are totally perfect, and nothing will ever be better.' The religious view is that the world (including us) is the best possible. The reasoning is straightforward: if god is infinitely powerful and infinitely good, then his creations could not be better than they are. The earlier comment to your column, mentioning sickle-cell anemia, is perfectly consistent with the religious view, for the reasons mentioned.

The religious view was devastatingly ridiculed in Voltaire's Candide in the 18th century.

There is a certain truth to the idea that human evolution has stopped. Of course it hasn't really stopped, but the process of species adapting to their environment, which evolution holds primary, has been superceded (for humans) by the process of adapting our environment to our existing species. Evolution still occurs, but it is no longer primary. People with what would be maladaptive characteristics in a state of nature, like poor eyesight or a crippling deformity, no longer routinely drop out of the gene pool. They get glasses or wheelchairs and have lovely children. Further, for the past century or two technology has been transforming the world far faster than evolutionary change can possibly equal: what was 'fittest' a century ago is not what is 'fittest' now. Human evolution is now secondary.

Yours, Peter Miller

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» That's still evolution Posted by: nickptar
» RE: That's still evolution Posted by: eosinglemum
» RE: the face of evolution Posted by: drmeow
» RE: the face of evolution Posted by: eosinglemum
» RE: the face of evolution Posted by: deejayvee
» Complete B.S. Posted by: ABetterFuture
Good anti-ID site
Posted by: nickptar on Sep 21, 2005 3:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Talk.Origins Archive

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» Also Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Also Posted by: eosinglemum
» RE: Good anti-ID site Posted by: eosinglemum
The stupid girl got it all wrong again :-(
Posted by: ikolpak on Sep 21, 2005 3:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These three-parent children have nothing to do with evolution as this trait is not hereditary. It's like Lysenko's theory of acquired traits, or, in simpler terms, like cutting dogs' tails isn't evolution, just a simple surgery.

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» She's onto something, though Posted by: nickptar
» Of course it's teleological. Posted by: nickptar
» Lysenko's theory Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Lysenko's theory Posted by: nickptar
» Wait, no Posted by: nickptar
» So Lysenko was before Darwin Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Thanks for the timeline dear Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Lysenko's theory Posted by: ciccio
Avian flu and value judments in evolution.
Posted by: ikolpak on Sep 21, 2005 4:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the meantime avian flu virus H5N1 is evolving (getting better?) somewhere in Asia. As you can see this sort of value judgements in beyond (outside) theory of evolution or, for that matter, any science. Who says we are getting better and not worse, and in what sense? It's funny how evolutionists use the same prejudices as creationists do.

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Is Evolution Slowing?
Posted by: MT512 on Sep 21, 2005 5:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that, at least in developed nations, we have slowed our evolution because far fewer undesirable traits kill us before we can reproduce. So, for example, asthmatics who would have died young in the wild end up having asthmatic kids. Maybe if we didn't have effective medicine, the disease would eventually disappear from our species. And so now maybe asthma will always be with us.

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» RE: Is Evolution Slowing? Posted by: dai766
» RE: Is Evolution Slowing? Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Is Evolution Slowing? Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Is Evolution Slowing? Posted by: MT512
"If we and our backward ways are not going to become history, then I have no hope for the future."
Posted by: WhatNow? on Sep 21, 2005 7:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I feel that way too. I think we may be devolving. At least, alot of the people in the US seem to be going backwards.

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Three Parents
Posted by: eosinglemum on Sep 21, 2005 11:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey Annalee
I will say it, three parents does disturb me. Now I have not check Mr. Gall's link to the flying spaghetti monster but I can just as well find it myself by searching Huffington.
I must say you have more faith then I to think the earth will be here in how many thousands of years you say, that SF will be buried under mud. You have more faith than I sister, and you are not even a "believer".

The way things are going now with hurricanes smashing out country, genocide in Uganda, utter chaos in Sudan, who knows the state of El Salavador, war in Iraq, let's see in Afghanistan...things are looking a little up, what else? Those are the countries on my mind in this momment in time...well with all that natural and human disaster I don't know about the future babe.

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» RE: Three Parents Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» RE: Three Parents Posted by: mazel
» RE: Three Parents Posted by: Basenjis
» Hurricane Theology Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Totally off-topic Posted by: nickptar
» But interesting Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Frankenstein Unbound Posted by: Cayenne
» Biblical Studies Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» Our religion is not my religion Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Pace of human evolution
Posted by: grokked on Sep 22, 2005 3:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Actually, human evolution is probably slowing, or perhaps even static, for a couple of reasons.

Medical intervention to preserve formerly fatal genetic flaws from killing the host is one obvious reason.

The other is the sheer size of the gene pool. From what I've heard of the current "human story", most of the real advances were made when the species was under extreme climatic stress and near extinction. I believe that is a principal called "punctuated-equilibrium".

With a population of 6.5 B going on 11 B, it seems unlikely that any (natural) adaptation is likely to make any serious headway through the gene pool.

Of course, for artificially induced improvments, all bets are off.

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» Yet again Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Yet again Posted by: grokked
» RE: Yet again Posted by: ftorres
eosinglemum
Posted by: kww355 on Sep 22, 2005 5:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hi :-) just curious why you changed your screen name? I liked the other one.

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» RE: eosinglemum Posted by: eosinglemum
» RE: eosinglemum Posted by: nickptar
» La Femme Nikita Posted by: La Femme Nikita
evelution
Posted by: ciccio on Sep 22, 2005 5:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fourty years ago, my grandfather died and as I was in the
process of setting up my first house, I decided to take the
linen and the silver. There is nothing I love as much as slipping under some nice fresh linen sheets. Suprise! All those beautiful sheets my grandmother had so lovingly sown and embroidered for her trousseau in the 1890's were a foot too
short for my beds. I do not know the average height 100
years ago, I do know that when Fredrick of Prussia had a
regiment of 6' minimum, they were considered giants.

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» RE: evelution Posted by: grokked
» RE: Tallness -- one rat is no rat ... Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» RE: evelution Posted by: smuney
Intelligent Design and Its Original Copy: GW Bush
Posted by: Brucewxx on Sep 22, 2005 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now I know why Bush is so stupid, he IS the original copy of the Itelligent Design and didn't go through the evolusion.

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rover
Posted by: Roverton on Sep 22, 2005 8:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nature has a way of popping up a few of the new models amidst the older versions to keep things interesting. The less evolved one is never quite equipped to deal with the new one, but here we are. We've been the new one for quite some time.

The upgraded model will look like the older unit, but with VASTLY greater brain capacity. The stupider, older model (Neo-Conmen and Phlegm-O-Crats) aren't capable of recognizing it until it's too late. Some kids out there are going to save us from this mess. I can't wait to meet the next issue of Human. The NEW-Man.

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agitator church and state
Posted by: eileenflmng on Sep 22, 2005 9:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As long as we are thinking we are evolving!

There is no logical reason to deny that the Source of all is most indeed play-full and evolution is Gods play; Gods recreation in daily creation: evolution is natural way.

The illogic of fundamentalism and its ONE WAY approach to everything rather than the evolved openess to Yes and Both responses to mystery, proves mankind is in danger of extiction.

If we don't WAKE UP and realize that we are all interrconected and dependent on Mother Nature and each other we will blow this world up.


Will we all evolve/WAKE UP up and do something to confront the rigid fundamentalism which is holding the human family from evolving into fully integrated physical-spiritual-and intellectual human beings?
The choice is ours.

www.wearewideawake.org

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"The Fact Is: We Don't Know WHO We Are"
Posted by: monkeywrench on Sep 22, 2005 9:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Human superiority and entitled dominance over the rest of the natural world is more than just a 'weird folk belief": it is codified in all of Western religion, in the belief that Man was created in the image of God (who just happened to be male, and white), and that we were to "go forth and multiply" (man we did THAT well, huh?) and hold dominance over the world. Of course in all of God's wisdom we didn't get any knowledge of how to be stewards of the world, so we've gone about destroying it like a toddler destroys his toys – without even being aware of what we are doing. Problem is, daddy-God can't buy us a new one.

The real story? An old joke, apt for today: modern Man IS the missing link –– between a killer ape and a civilized human being.

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» In Search of a John 3:8 Hurricane Posted by: eosinglemum
Three Parents -- The Science
Posted by: AdamSelene11726 on Sep 22, 2005 11:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How I hate Science Reporters who don't bother to know the science they report.

From Annalee Newitz's article:
>These babies will have one woman's nuclear DNA, another >woman's mitochondrial DNA, and more nuclear DNA from >the man.

>How's that for changing the course of evolution? A human >with three genetic parents is definitely a novel version of >homo sapiens.

Very shocking. Very Controversial, Very newsworthy

But not correct!

Mitochondrial DNA replacement is NOT 'changing the course of human evolution' one little bit. At least not according to the therories of genetics that suggest the theraphy might work.

Mitochondria have one function: they carry on metabolism ... they process food, into energy. They do not transmit heredity.

More importantly every Sapiens sapiens alive today has exactly the same mitochondrial DNA inherited exclusively along the female line, from the same "Mitochondrial Eve" who lived 200,000 years ago.

(Google: "mitochondria eve" +reasearch +dna +ancestor).

At least, that is what the Evolutionary Biologists believe: "It's just a Theory," after all.

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» RE: Three Parents -- and the Fiction Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» RE: Three Parents -- and the Fiction Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» African Origins Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» Human Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: Three Parents -- The Science Posted by: Jim Pivonka
» RE: Three Parents -- The Science Posted by: Jim Pivonka
» RE: The Science -- corrected Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» RE: The Science -- corrected Posted by: Jim Pivonka
» RE: The Science -- corrected Posted by: AdamSelene11726
» What she means is Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Three Parents -- The Science Mark II Posted by: La Femme Nikita
word up annalee
Posted by: josh42042 on Sep 22, 2005 11:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
once again you hit the nail right on the freakin head. i think i've read all your colums from the past year or so and they all rock. Your firefly story was funny, and i am jealous that you got to see it already. This one was great, i feel the same way about the future of our society, and i especially like how you didn't mention the almighty FSM untill the end. keep writing and i'll keep reading.

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Whose evolution is this?
Posted by: ikolpak on Sep 22, 2005 3:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consider a situation with three-parent pig (or rat, I'm sure these guys tried their technique on some other animal first). Will Annalee praise it as a breaktrhrough in pigs' (or rats') evolution? The issue is not who got three parents, but who did the procedure of someone else getting three parents. And this is no different from any other medical intervention. And I doubt that "three-parent" stuff is appropriate here at all. Consider somebody giving me blood, or, for that matter, transplant penis, etc. Will he be a third parent of my later offspring? As somebody has already noticed mytochondriac DNA is as relevant to evolution as penis is. All this looks just like bad marketing, and stupid girl simply bought into it.

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» See my above comments Posted by: nickptar
» RE: See my above comments Posted by: ikolpak
» RE: Whose evolution is this? Posted by: Jim Pivonka
» RE: Whose evolution is this? Posted by: ikolpak
» RE: Whose evolution is this? Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Whose evolution is this? Posted by: ikolpak
» Nitpick Posted by: nickptar
» RE: Nitpick Posted by: Jim Pivonka
» So the word parent offended you... Posted by: La Femme Nikita
mdna - ndna thought experiment
Posted by: Jim Pivonka on Sep 22, 2005 4:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since the nature and role of mdna and three sources of genetic material seems to catch the eye of some folks, here is a though experiment for them:

(Don't try this at home or anywhere else in the real world.)

Remove the nucleus from a human egg cell.

Transplant into that cell the diploid nucleus from a fertilized non-human primate.

What would happen, and why?

Most (virtually certain) likely would be failure of the fertilized ovum to develop. Why? Because the mdna in the ovum, or egg, has evolved as the regulator of the development of human genetic materials into a functional oranism, not as part of a neutral container within which the nucleus operates independantly. The mdna manages, controls, regulates, supervises - you choose the word - the earliest development of the embryo.

It's evolution is slow because alterations in this basic process are so very dangerous to the survival of the organism and the success of reproduction. When evolution occurs, at this level, it is apt to be very significant in its impact on the developing organism - that is to be associated with major changes in it.

The inclusion of a fertilized human nucleus in a human ovum will work, as has been demonstrated in many ways many times. And the impact of the mitochondrial dna on the human being which develops from that implantation will be expressed in the nature of the person who develops from it. That person, clearly, has three parents.

When cats are "cloned" by insertion of activiated nuclei into ova, the kittens are not identical and don't often look like the cat which was the source of the nucleus. Why? Because gene expression in the earliest and most basic stages of embryonic development is managed by mitochondrial dna.

There you go.

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» RE: mdna - ndna thought experiment Posted by: Jim Pivonka
» RE: mdna - ndna thought experiment Posted by: Jim Pivonka
» RE: mdna - ndna thought experiment Posted by: Jim Pivonka
Another thought experiment.
Posted by: ikolpak on Sep 22, 2005 4:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ms. Newitz claims that:

"A human with three genetic parents is definitely a novel version of homo sapiens".

I just wonder if it is at all possible to determine whether a particular human was born "from three parents" or the usual way. Will, say, an anthropologist see the difference?

Any takers?

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» RE: Another thought experiment. Posted by: Jim Pivonka
We are about to have children born of three parents Mark II
Posted by: La Femme Nikita on Sep 22, 2005 5:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I decided to get critical, with my kid pounding the floor in the apartment. Argh!
For example: We are about to have children born of three parents. Some medical researchers in the U.K. have announced they'll be experimenting with creating human embryos that have genetic material from two mothers and a father. The idea is to cure certain diseases inherited through maternal genetic material called mitochondrial DNA that exists outside the cell nucleus (where most DNA is housed). These babies will have one woman's nuclear DNA, another woman's mitochondrial DNA, and more nuclear DNA from the man.

Ok I do not have a problem with that. Myopic gaze if you are out there and see a problem with this, please respond.


How's that for changing the course of evolution? A human with three genetic parents is definitely a novel version of homo sapiens.

Of course, the people who believe that only some godlike creature or "nature" should be in charge of upgrading the species also think this is a naughty idea. Josephine Quintavalle, a rep for public interest group Comment on Reproductive Ethics, told the BBC, "It is undesirable to create children in this way. It will shock the world." Her response reminds me of the sort of thing an intelligent design adherent would say. Essentially she's arguing that we shouldn't continue to evolve, even though that's impossible.

Ok I do not have a problem with this. If this contradicts my former post so be it. I "evolved" since this morning. As churchofone pointed out, I have a quick mind, Johnny Boy, Mr. Gall, Adam and any other one who could criticize my mind.

So there.

And Annalee thank you for this article. I posted a message on my biblical studies group regarding this topic and look I got what I asked for!
:)

For once.

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Makes you think doesn't it
Posted by: maskmaker on Sep 23, 2005 3:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Inteligent Design Institute Of Theology Students.... you figure out the acronym

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» Theology Posted by: La Femme Nikita
Very interesting article
Posted by: LPB on Sep 23, 2005 6:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see there are a lot of intelligent, well read people reading this article, and some really interesting comments. I wuld say our author has done a great job opening some minds to ideas they were not really thinking about before, and has perhaps contributed interesting points to those who were already thinking along these lines.

I recently heard an NPR discussion about happiness and one of the guests opined that novelty is a necessary component for our brains to feel happy.

I would think the discussion provoked by this article, whether in agreement or disagreement, would certainly qualify as novel, at least to people with life experiences and viewpoints similar to my own.

Great job, everyone!

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nuts
Posted by: ingozi on Sep 23, 2005 9:21 AM   
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All you have to do is look at some of the blatant ignorance lighting up the faces of those around you in order to understand that at one point we might have been on the right track and now are evolving not into something better and much cooler but into something --- darker, more.......stupid.

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peak of evolution, indeed
Posted by: monkopotamus on Sep 24, 2005 8:47 AM   
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homo sapiens is the last surviving species of "humans" and we hope it's on its way into the same dustbin that it pushed so many others. no other species has been so wholesale destructive to others' lives.
as "earthlings" we have just as much right to this planet as these murderous humans. (it's embarassing to be related to them)
peak of evolution? indeed, homo sapiens is the peak of the dark side of evolution. let's hope they don't destroy the entire planet along with themselves.
monkopotamus

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» Very creative writing and quite funny! Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» first non-human written website Posted by: monkopotamus
» Monk as in monkey Posted by: La Femme Nikita
All hail the noodly appendage!
Posted by: Rhett on Sep 25, 2005 9:06 AM   
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that is all.

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johndenton46
Posted by: johndenton46 on Sep 25, 2005 3:31 PM   
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A finch tries to crack a seed, but can't because her beak is too small. According to Darwinism, finches must survive by adapting, through the process of random mutation. So finches mutate: larger or smaller or different eyes, hearts, feathers, feet, anuses, etc., until voila! a big beak appears.

Can't you see what utter crap this souless theory is? A random universe allowing the mutations of ANY biological form or process in an organism before striking on the winning formula is a statistical nightmare the scale of the lotto.

Remove the politics, remove the Jesu-cracker hatred of the
smug left, remove the peculiar similarity of Bush to Bonzo, and just look at it through the cold view of mathematics: ACCIDENTAL EVOLUTION IS ASTRONOMICALLY IMPROBABLE!

Have a nice incarnation. O wait, you're Jewish and don't believe in an afterlife. Anyway, see you at the club. O wait, you're plain and they won't let you in. And that big nose.... hmm... then PRAY for a better NEXT incarnation--a smaller beak, if you will.

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» RE: johndenton46 Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: johndenton46 Posted by: johndenton46
» Femme Posted by: johndenton46
» RE: science and theology part 1 Posted by: johndenton46
» Sex and parenting Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: science and theology part 2 Posted by: johndenton46
» Christian/Buddhist Posted by: La Femme Nikita
» RE: johndenton46 Posted by: nickptar
» RE: johndenton46 Posted by: nickptar
» nick: Posted by: johndenton46
We behave like children
Posted by: Ahimsa on Sep 26, 2005 10:07 AM   
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This is a comment in response to comments moreso than to the main article.
The fantastic thing about the theory of evolution (keyword: THEORY) is that it allows for the openness of mind necessary for improving, deepening and extending our understanding about natural issues, which day by day prove to be more and more complex and surprising.
Our understanding of evolution is, itself, evolving. It is growing and shifting based on new evidence, I doubt that it is being treated as a dogma by any respectable scientist (I pray to the aliens that that is not the case).
If we believe that evoution is a theory of adaptation and change that may determine the way nature behaves through time, we can also argue that evolution itself is evolving, that the "laws" that govern it may not be rigid, that these changes may adapt themselves to the infinite number of possibilities that nature (our universe) can present.
Ultimately, what the heck do we know?
The beautiful thing about this is that we have the option to see our understanding change, while dogma-driven doctrines don't. Let's not behave like science is a dogma, because it is NOT.

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God is a theory
Posted by: brodix on Sep 26, 2005 7:05 PM   
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The problem I have with the concept of God, the all-knowing absolute, as Pope John Paul ll put it, is that the absolute isn't the apex, it's basis. So the spiritual absolute would be the essence out of which we rise and to which we fall, not a focal point from which we fell and seek to return.

 Intelligence and consciousness are not synonymous. Intelligence is a cumulative process of distinction and judgment. The dichotomy of good and bad is not some grand metaphysical contest between light and darkness, but the basic binary code of biological calculation.

 One, as in mono, isn't the absolute, zero is. The absolute is not some extreme of either the right or left, good or bad, light or dark, it is the equilibrium around which opposing elements revolve. The medium of which everything is. But of itself, it would just be a flat line on the heart monitor. It is these differences pulling against each other with all their might that is what life is, be it yin and yang, matter and anti-matter.

  I see liberalism as social expansion and conservatism as civil consolidation. Those institutions which expand knowledge/power, such as education, media, sciences, tend to be inherently liberal. Those which consolidate this energy, such as business and government, tend to be inherently conservative. The government social programs of the last century, created, a form of conservative liberalism, often referred to as PC. The reaction to this was a liberal conservatism, otherwise known as libertarianism, which sought to redistribute civil control back to the presumably more culturally conservative local level. Having been originally based on a simplistic rejection of government, now this movement has matured and coalesced, it is in trouble because it lacks any core civil philosophy, leaving its social conservatives and economic conservatives little more than a toxic coalition of greed and cultural rigor mortis.

The story of Jesus started out as a tale of social insurrection and with its adoption by Constantine, crossed the political spectrum to become a tool of civil indoctrination.

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» RE: God is a theory Posted by: ftorres
Intelligent Design? How utterly stupid!
Posted by: ftorres on Sep 27, 2005 7:14 AM   
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The lowly cockroach saw the rise and fall of the mighty dinosaurs and many other creatures far superior to mankind. This repulsive tiny bug is one of the many that will also see the extinction of everything connected to the mammal species. In 4-5 million years, the entire mammalian species will have disappear from the face of the earth.

How's that for "intelligent design?" The best mankind can do is become parts of a robot. In some cases, it seem we are already that!

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George W. Bush
Posted by: russianblue1 on Sep 27, 2005 10:20 AM   
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HE is the only evidence necessary to prove that there is NO intelligent design OR evolution.

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scaling down
Posted by: ingozi on Oct 1, 2005 5:02 AM   
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Let me explain my reasoning to my earlier post. Not that I have to, but because calling mankind stupid deserves a better explaination..
It is a well known fact that inbreeding leads to, shall we say, unwanted results. If we all came from a common ancestor then we are all related. This being the case, what we are doing as a species is disastrous to our future. Indeed it is easily seen that deficiencies in our bodies due to this inbreeding are becoming more common. Some are obvious (Dick Cheney), and some not so (Clarissa Flockhart). But what is certain is that the wife or husband you sleep with most every night is related in someway to that drunk you took advantage of at the hotel bar on your business trip. But what's worse is that your related to them as well! Have fun you little inbreeder.

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scaling down
Posted by: ingozi on Oct 1, 2005 5:09 AM   
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Let me explain my reasoning to my earlier post. Not that I have to, but because calling mankind stupid deserves a better explanation..
It is a well known fact that inbreeding leads to, shall we say, unwanted results. If we all came from a common ancestor then we are all related. This being the case, what we are doing as a species is disastrous to our future. Indeed it is easily seen that deficiencies in our bodies due to this inbreeding are becoming more common. Some are obvious (Dick Cheney), and some not so (Clarissa Flockhart). But what is certain is that the wife or husband you sleep with most every night is related in someway to that drunk you took advantage of at the hotel bar on your business trip. But what's worse is that your related to them as well! Have fun you little inbreeder.
Intelligent design could very well be playing a part - the part of an experimenter. Something like a gardener who grafts branches from different trees together to make a new fruit. Or a Shepperd cross breeding his flock. Sure, it's done out of love, the love for the creation itself. But that love sways easily once the experiment is either over, or takes a bad turn - and moves on to the next project.

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