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Teaching In America: The Impossible Dream
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Through compelling accounts, Teachers Have It Easy dispels one of the biggest myths about teaching in public schools -- that the paltry salaries educators receive are adequate compensation for summer vacations and "shorter work days." Instead, the book paints a Dickensian picture of our educational system, in which teachers routinely work 10-12 hour days that don't end when the dismissal bell rings.
The idea for the book arose from conversations between Eggers and Calegari, co-founders of the non-profit 826 Valencia, which offers tutoring and writing workshops for youth. (A new center, 826NYC, recently opened in Brooklyn.)
"The idea was Dave's to begin with," Moulthrop told me. "When he was in his twenties, he had friends, including his sister, who were teachers and loved their work. For them it was the best job on the planet. A few years later, they all quit because of the money. It was just a travesty."
Eggers' friends were not the only ones who discovered how impossible it can be to eke out a living as an educator. A recent study by the University of Pennsylvania, as noted in the book, found that 46 percent of teachers leave within their first five years. Such high turnover and instability undoubtedly wreaks havoc on public schools and their respective communities, in which teachers play a vital role.
"If teachers are just leaving at the peak of their game," Moulthrop says, "their students were ill-served by the system."
While Moulthrop is a noted journalist, and Eggers' reputation is well known in the literary world, Teachers Have It Easy succeeds because it allows the underpaid, unappreciated teachers to speak for themselves.
Take Jonathan Dearman, who was the only African American teacher at San Francisco's Leadership High School, a public charter school. Dearman, like so many public school teachers, was beloved
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"There was a teacher who was integral to the culture of school and the community," Moulthrop said of Dearman. "He set absolutely the highest standards ... kids failed his class and yet they still did all of the work all year long."
After five years as a teacher, however, Dearman, who has a master's degree in education, was making just over $40,000 a year. As is often the case with public school teachers, Dearman neglected his wife and kids to raise other people's children. He also accrued $15,000 in credit card debt, most of which was spent on supplies for the classroom. At times, Dearman even sacrificed his own health because his world revolved around his students. Once he forgot his daily insulin injection and ended up spending a night in the hospital. Still, he made it to school the next morning in time to teach all day.
Now a realtor, Dearman makes about $80,000 -- double the annual salary he earned as a teacher -- in only two months. Yet it was his newfound liberty that Dearman recalled as being the major upside to leaving the field of education. "That was one of the first things I realized when I got out of teaching," he said. "I can leave when I want to. I can go to the bathroom when I want, I can go get a cup of tea when I want, and I can eat when I want. I couldn't do that when I was a teacher."
As Teachers Have It Easy points out, about 20 percent of public school teachers have to take a second job because they want to continue teaching at all costs. Rachel Cross, who teaches history and algebra at Oneida Middle School in Oneida, Tenn., had to clean houses for a year when tutoring and teaching summer school didn't offer enough supplemental income. As a single mother, she frequently brought her son along. "I have cried several times," Cross confessed, "and it's like, you're on your knees [cleaning] this toilet, and you're almost praying, praying that it'll get better, that you won't have to do this forever. But at the same time, you've got to be thankful, because this'll be an extra $30. It's a tank of gas, or it may be part of your co-pay if your child gets sick."
After a while, the exhausting hours and second jobs, coupled with the added headache of taking more courses at night in order to reach a higher salary level, take their toll on our teachers. The book explains that another major reason so many teachers leave the profession early on is to marry and start families. With the cost of raising a child approximately $10,000 per year, a teacher's pathetic salary simply will not do.
Teachers Have It Easy also explores the effects that the high turnover of teachers has on students. The book contends that the majority of the seven million Americans who are either in prison or are on parole had problems that can be traced back to their educational experience.
To back that assertion, the authors cite the Perry Preschool Study, in which 58 impoverished children from Michigan who were deemed likely to fail in school were given the opportunity to attend a high-quality preschool with the best educators before matriculating to Perry Elementary, a local school. The study also tracked another 65 students who did not attend preschool before entering Perry. Not surprisingly, a larger percentage of the students who attended the top-quality preschool performed better in standardized tests, graduated from high school, and went on to lucrative careers.
"If you take the Perry example and just did it in elementary schools," Moulthrop exclaims, "let's say you couldn't afford to do it everywhere, but just in elementary schools ... my god, who knows what could happen!"
With a direct link between the school drop-out rate and the number of individuals who end up in the penal system, it would behoove society to pay teachers more money in order to lure the best educators and ensure that more students go on to become positive contributors to society.
There are other issues that continue to plague public schools besides low teacher pay. Overcrowded classrooms, a critical shortage of resources and a pervasive lack of respect for teachers from both students and parents are just a few of the problems that make teaching in public schools so difficult. Moulthrop feels, however, that those issues are hard to separate from the desperate need for higher salaries.
"The quality of chalkboards, where the bathrooms are, where the desks are, all of that is profoundly important," he says. "We decided to focus on teacher pay, though, because it's a clear example of the deficiencies in our educational policy. If payroll is where you're going to be spending the lion's share of the education budget, you really want to be attracting the top people to the profession."
Calegari, who taught for over a decade in three different public schools around the country, firmly shares Moulthrop's sentiment. "We can't base our democracy on altruism alone," she says. "People need to be paid for their awesome work."
To that end, the book cites examples of salary reforms in several school districts. Younger teachers in particular seem more willing to be paid for the work they do in the classroom, as opposed to the current salary structure that is based on the number of years in the school system or the number of credits a teacher has earned beyond a degree.
The authors of Teachers Have It Easy all believe teachers are true heroes. Along with Calegari and Eggers, Moulthrop hopes that the book will raise awareness about just how difficult it is to be an overworked, underpaid teacher.
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Posted by: ZPaul on Sep 15, 2005 6:17 AM
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Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 15, 2005 7:41 AM
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» RE: You think PA and NY are bad, come over to VA and other red states
Posted by: nadezhda
» RE: You think PA and NY are bad, come over to VA and other red states
Posted by: johnny-boy2
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Posted by: Olympiada on Sep 15, 2005 7:56 AM
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I left junior college to marry and start a family. Big f**king mistake. Don't do it . I finally graduated from junior college with my AA in Child Development. I got to meet the cute mayor of SF, for the third time, on the stage. I knew he was heading for divorce. Thought about chasing him. Nah. ;)
At any rate, now I no longer want to work as an early childhood educator. And everyone is like "you should be a teacher". Well I took a class called Orientation to Education at CCSF and the textbook was Savage Inequalities by Jonathan Kozol.
But I don't need to textbook to tell me about the problems. I dropped out of GWHS. I attended that famous Urban Pioneers program that got shut down because two kids died out in the wilderness. I got pneumonia when it was our turn to go camping, so I missed that.
This article paints a bleak and dismal picture...I have also been told I "should" be a counselor...It is possible that is the direction I might head in...As a single mother I can not afford to be crying on the floor praying to God cleaning toilets. I do enough that as it is in my vocation as a single mother. I do not want to do that for a living.
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» RE: so many teachers leave the profession early on is to marry and start families.
Posted by: baseplate
» RE: so many teachers leave the profession early on is to marry and start families.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» NIHILISM by Eugene Rose
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: NIHILISM by Eugene Rose
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Ok, sorry
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Ok, sorry
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Knowledge
Posted by: Olympiada
» Atheists and prayer part 1
Posted by: bornxeyed
» The Struggle with God by Paul Evodkimov p. 1
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: The Struggle with God by Paul Evodkimov p. 1
Posted by: bornxeyed
» creation vs. evolution
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» RE: creation vs. evolution
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Bishop Usher
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» RE: Bishop Usher
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Nobel Winners Defend Teaching Evolution
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Nobel Winners Defend Teaching Evolution
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Write the critique!
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Write the critique!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» I know about the discussion in the archives
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: I know about the discussion in the archives
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Evolution
Posted by: Olympiada
» evolution
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Compassion
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Nobel Winners Defend Teaching Evolution
Posted by: bornxeyed
» I do not know enough about evolution today to ask questions so never mind
Posted by: Olympiada
» Atheists and prayer part 2
Posted by: bornxeyed
» I am humbled
Posted by: Olympiada
» Christian Apologetics
Posted by: Olympiada
» Olympiada & bornxeyed
Posted by: nadezhda
» Thank you
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: lamar on Sep 15, 2005 8:08 AM
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Imagine if you went to a career fair and the banner read: "Low pay, constant scrutiny, and underhanded politics" How fast would you run to sign up?
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» RE: Teaching promises a low salary career
Posted by: flairndip
» Perhaps lamar is bitter
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Teaching promises a low salary career
Posted by: Vay-ber
» Lamar does not have the power to beat any one up, he is expressing his feeling
Posted by: Olympiada
» Well you are smart lamar
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: CrystalD on Sep 15, 2005 8:23 AM
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Which brings me to another idea we discussed, that teaching is viewed as a "last resort" career for those who can't hack it in other fields. There was a time when teaching was viewed as a terrific career - indeed just about the ONLY career - for bright, educated young women who wanted to work. Now these bright young women go into law or business or graphic design or what have you, and teaching has gotten the reputation as an easy-peasy career choice for ditzes or dullards. Not that this IS true, but it's what is PERCEIVED.
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» Teaching as a back up
Posted by: crz53
» RE: Teaching as a back up
Posted by: CrystalD
» RE: Lack of respect for the teaching profession
Posted by: drpatti
» Law
Posted by: Olympiada
» Teacher, mother, nurse -- is there a common thread here?
Posted by: janvdb
» Interesting point on mothers, let me muse for a moment
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Interesting point on mothers, let me muse for a moment
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Polygamy
Posted by: Olympiada
» What's the other board CrystalD?
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: LeisureGuy on Sep 15, 2005 8:30 AM
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» There has always been a lack of support for teachers
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Sep 15, 2005 9:29 AM
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In my small town (pop. 450) high school, teachers are earning about $30,000/year. Maybe that doesn't sound like much, but the average person in my community is earning $18,000/ year. Plus--they have an outstanding health and pension package. I would guess that at least half the jobs in my area have minimal if any health coverage. As far as retirement plans, a recent economic development commission report in my area stated that only 24% of local employers have any sort of pension/401 k plan for their workers.
And boy, if the public school teachers have it good my area, you should see what the local community colleges pay! I am a pc tech with 10+ years experience. The best job I have been able to get pays $24,000/year. Recently, our local college advertised for a pc tech position and they were offering $40 k for this position! People in the IT industry around here that I talked to were stunned at the generous compensation. Additionally, the local community colleges (there are two in my local area) pay 100% of their employees health costs--try to find a private company that does that nowadays.
I am sure that the conditions here in Nebraska can't be much different that it is for teachers in most other similar states. I really wish we could all be making good money, have less hours, etc. And it is easy to run around yelling "TEACHERS ARE HAVING IT TOUGH!! TEACHERS NEED MORE PAY!!" To which the average working Joe would reply "So What, I'm having it tough too!"
I think the issue needs to be set against the larger one of the general decline in wages for ALL working people, and the general decline of the middle class. It is heartbreaking for me to see in my local area college educated people who can't get ANY job who would be glad to take on the job of a public school teacher.
Sorry folks, but at least where I live teachers--while having some of the negative things mentioned in the article--are doing very well in relation to others in my local work force.
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» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: jmao
» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: drpatti
» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: flairndip
» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: may261989
» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Interesting comment.
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Sep 15, 2005 9:32 AM
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"Kwanzaa From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Not to be confused with the Kwanza River in Angola, or the Angolan currency, "Kwanza".
Kwanzaa is a week-long, African American holiday observance held from December 26 to January 1. Timed to serve as an alternative to the growing commercialism of Christmas, it was founded in 1966 by Ron Everett, a.k.a. Ron Karenga, African-American activist, convicted felon, and director of the Black Studies department at the California State University, Long Beach. Kwanzaa is not a religious holiday, but a cultural one, a syncretic festival, based on various elements of the first harvest celebrations widely celebrated in Africa, around the 10th month of the year. According to a survey conducted by the National Retail Foundation in October 2004, 1.6% of consumers celebrate Kwanzaa."
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» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: Basenjis
» Hi kittynboi, I respectfully disagree
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: decembrist
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: canuckistani
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: poonoggin
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: baseplate
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Good point bornxeyed
Posted by: Olympiada
» Thank you, I agree baseplate
Posted by: Olympiada
» This is a dumb comment poonoggin
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: There's no such thing as dumb comments, just dumb responses
Posted by: poonoggin
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: Basenjis
» Basenjis, where is your proof for this claim?
Posted by: Olympiada
» What do you mean all holidays are made up bornxeyed?
Posted by: Olympiada
» Ok - jumping into the fray
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Ok - jumping into the fray
Posted by: baseplate
» My dear friend baseplate, whatever gave you the idea I was an atheist?!
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Ok - jumping into the fray
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Ok - jumping into the fray
Posted by: bornxeyed
» correction regarding true African holiday
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 15, 2005 9:58 AM
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Individual freedom? It's not for sale. It must be earned by self-development. It takes a dull mind to allow public officials to create the chain-gang of rush hour freeway traffic. The same dull mind supports a war on terrorism, a war in Iraq, and a war on drugs -- none of which can be won. All of which can be found in Orwell's "1984," which dull minds cannot read.
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» RE: Orwell's "1984" Accurately Predicted Our Current Condition
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Orwell's "1984" Accurately Predicted Our Current Condition
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: poonoggin on Sep 15, 2005 10:19 AM
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» RE: One honestly must ask...
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» RE: One honestly must ask...
Posted by: nadezhda
» Yeah - if the parents are teaching them
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: saramarie on Sep 15, 2005 10:22 AM
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Another teacher recently told the class that teaching was at least a little better than working 22 hours a week at McD's and making only $12K a year. If I had been drinking something then, I probably would have choked nearly to death and had to leave the classroom! I work about 40 hours a week for little over minimum wage every week and will probably not take home more than $10K this year.
I've been told by some wiser souls that the problem with many teachers is that they never left the education system and really, really went out into the real world, the one that the rest of us live in, so they have no perspective and exaggerate their "hardships" to the rest of us.
I'm going to be a teacher, eventually. High school History. I couldn't think of a profession I could get more out of. I'd rather be doing the world a service by helping out kids in a classroom than selling them crap that will make them overweight, and I can get full benefits, weekends, holidays, and summers off. Also, the minimum a teacher seems to make in NY is about $30K a year, three times what I currently make. I can stop worrying about whether I can pay increasingly expensive energy bills (trust me, utility cut-offs are the most nerve-racking, humiliating experiences you can go through!) and buy a decent car with an income like that (I currently take a bus everywhere)! Also, you know that teaching is a demanding job, so if you want to do it, maybe you should think twice before starting a family. I know I don't want one. Think about it this way: you know you wouldn't get a puppy if you had to be at work all day, so why have a kid? Is it really fair? Instead of making more little problem children, help out some of the ones already existing... in the classroom.
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» RE: Boo Freakin' Hoo
Posted by: txjill
» Kids for txjill
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Such twisted thoughts need air
Posted by: poonoggin
» Be careful what you pray for
Posted by: Sojourner
» The prayers of the saints have stopped floods
Posted by: Olympiada
» Hello Sara Marie
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Hello Sara Marie
Posted by: decembrist
» The pleasures of the nooky-nooky ROTFLMAO - but wait
Posted by: Olympiada
» The Issue Is About What Society Places Value In
Posted by: decembrist
» Excellent point decemberist
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Boo Freakin' Hoo
Posted by: Pascale
» child-centered progressivist doctrines.
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Boo Freakin' Hoo
Posted by: Basenjis
» That's judgemental basenjis
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: akdave on Sep 15, 2005 10:28 AM
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I spent two years in school and went into debt to become certified to teach science and mathematics. I trained under a master teacher and really felt I had found my niche. I taught for three years working 10-12 hours a day, six days a week, and despite students who had no discipline at home and administrators who had private agendas, I loved my job. At the end of three years I was let go with no explanation. I spent the next five years trying to get another full time position but was repeatedly turned down due to my age, 40s, and my MS degree. I finally realized older teachers are less malleable and why pay for additional education when you can get a cheap, fresh teacher straight out of college.
I am now a statistician (went back to school again!) and teach part time at a local community college. I still love to teach but can not afford to do it full time.
Only a non-teacher would think its an easy job. The three months 'off' are necessary to recharge for the next school year, and, of course, take those required classes to maintain your certification!
Peace,
David
Kodiak
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» RE: Been there...
Posted by: Basenjis
» Thank you David
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: Shakti on Sep 15, 2005 11:23 AM
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Amazingly, given the terrible academic job market, I finally found a non-tenure track position. The pay is not great but I love teaching.
So, I have thought very deeply about this issue - why do I love teaching so much, why does it pay so poorly, why do people not value teaching as a profession?
I think the reason research is valued more than teaching is that research is more about intellect and teaching is more about emotions - head versus heart. To teach well, one must *care* about the students ... teaching is a form of service to humanity. It can even be a kind of healing in the sense that you are helping young people grow whole. Head-oriented occupations pay more than heart-oriented occupations. Look at medicine and nursing.
Teaching young children is very much like parenting, and we know how much our society values full-time parents. As a nation we scorn feminine, nurturing, caring, compassionate approaches and valorize masculine, disciplining, conquering, competitive approaches to just about everything (including governance). No wonder teaching pays so little.
Also, because children (and seniors) do not contribute to the GNP, they are discounted and the persons who care for them are not valued and therefore do not earn much, if they earn anything at all.
The sorry state of education in this country is a direct result, in my opinion, of underlying societal values that have diminished all things "yin" and aggrandized all things "yang."
It is, of course, short sighted, unwise, and unsustainable, as are all systems so unbalanced.
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» RE: I LOVE to teach
Posted by: redjenny
» RE: I LOVE to teach
Posted by: cindyw
» RE: I LOVE to teach
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: I LOVE to teach
Posted by: LPB
» Beautiful comment Shakti, absolutely beautiful
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: cameron2610 on Sep 15, 2005 11:24 AM
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I definitely sympathize with those whose real wages are decreasing in a country with growing economic inequality, but why do people feel sorry for themselves when their own children drive them into poverty? Having children is an option, and at around $10,000 each per year (as the author points out), you'd be better off filling your garage with luxury cars. What do you expect when you create something that you know will consume all your time and resources? And Earth is already overpopulated by humans, who make life worse for all other species. "But I just feel in my heart that it will work out somehow." "But I'm meant to have a family!" Get over it then. It's up to you to be strong and make smart decisions (in areas where you do have a choice) or you'll suffer. That's the world we live in.
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» That's right, don't reproduce, I did, and never will again, so DONT FALL IN LOVE
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: hhartman on Sep 15, 2005 11:29 AM
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The NCLB Act did nothing to help children, it just created a system to where underpreforming schools lose money. Now, it may just be common sense, but I would think instead of taking funding away from schools that have no money and in fact leaving the schools unable to teach their chilren, you reinvest money into those schools so that they can have the tools to better educate kids. Yet, that would make sense to me.
I am starting to believe my friend who theorizes that it is part of the right wing, fundamentalist christian agenda to defund public schools because they do not teach "Christian Values". But I digress....
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» Right Wing Fundamentalists
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: amblings
Posted by: cindyw
» RE: amblings
Posted by: bornxeyed
» you like this comment bornxeyed?
Posted by: Olympiada
» Perhaps education is not so idealistic
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: amblings
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: txjill on Sep 15, 2005 11:34 AM
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That is too bad, but I make 6 figures now and life is easy compared to the hard work I did teaching and socializing the kids, working on things parents should teach at home. The other problem is that you have to follow so many guidelines to follow and "teach to the test" issues, which leaves out all the creative ways you can present information to a child and teach that child to love learning.
I am a Liberal, but I have to wonder if teaching was set up like a business and paid that way, would we not get some incredible teachers and plenty of resources at their disposal? What I cannot understand is why the bigger picture is not seen here. We could effectively wipe out some of this teen pregnancy, people being poor, abuse and probably crime if more was invested in education.
I have been on both sides and yes, there are lazy teachers, but if the standards aren't set higher and the pay higher, you are going to have lousy teachers. Do you think the person who cooked your fries really gives a crap how well those fries are cooked at Mickey Ds?
Like any profession...until you walk a mile in those shoes, you don't know what it is like.
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» working on things parents should teach at home.
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: PalEBoy on Sep 15, 2005 11:40 AM
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I think that if you get into teaching young, when you have low expenses, you can rise thru the salary ranks and make a decent living. The problem, as I see it, is that to effectively teach math/science at the high school level, you have to had real-world experience. And that means mid-career switching; which the current union negotiated salary structures do not support. You're right at the bottom with a kid fresh out of school and no real-world experience. Who suffers for this? The very people being served; the kids.
I brought this up with my local congresscritter and the response was how he was suppportive of mentor initiatives to help keep new teachers in the profession. He couldn't get it thru his skull that It's the money, stupid!. Sigh. MA offered up 20k$ bonus for people to get into teaching (paid out over 4 years; 5k$/yr). This fast-tracked you to getting a license. But, you had to commit to teaching in an underperforming district. Frankly, putting a brand new teacher in underperforming districts is, IMO, a perfect recipie for quick burnout. Also, MA reneged on the last year of the payout. How would that make someone feel?
So, now I'm back in industry. One of my former students used me in her college application as an example of someone who openned her eyes to the possibilities of math. The essay had me in tears. I could still be making that difference; but for the lack of $$.
I think the undersupport of education is symptomatic of undersupport of any publicly funded activity. The funding mechanism doesn't scale. Another way of funding education (and public works in general) must be found.
I don't have any answers; but dammit I do see the symptoms of the problems every day. People who think intelligent design (I won't grace it with capital letters) is real is a symptom of poor education. People who let a government lie to them and yet eat it up and vote against their economic self-interest; who aren't capable of critical thought. That's another symptom.
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Posted by: lamar on Sep 15, 2005 11:57 AM
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» RE: ural Nebraska vs. Urban Orlando
Posted by: monkeywrench
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Posted by: lamar on Sep 15, 2005 12:02 PM
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» Then fix the unions rather than killing them
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: UNIONS ARE A SCAM!!!
Posted by: hhartman
» RE: UNIONS ARE A SCAM!!!
Posted by: bettsoff
» You are right
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: UNIONS ARE A SCAM!!!
Posted by: brer
» Now wait a minute here, don't go blaming the victim
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: akdave on Sep 15, 2005 12:03 PM
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I guess while Norquist's buddies is starving the government so they can drown it in the bathtub they are making sure the voting public is too ignorant to figure out what is going on...
Peace,
David
Kodiak
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» RE: Conspiracy?
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: pickeju on Sep 15, 2005 12:06 PM
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» Sounds familiar... in French too
Posted by: Cécile
» We need to look at the root of the system
Posted by: Olympiada
» And I know you are not baseplate, he just thought I had all the answers
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: blogmommy on Sep 15, 2005 12:13 PM
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» Yes!
Posted by: crz53
» You are your child's first teacher
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: You are your child's first teacher
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Good arguement bornxeyed
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: jmao on Sep 15, 2005 12:23 PM
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but this is not new news. if you entered the teaching profession and expected to make money and be rewarded for your dedication, you have obviously chosen the wrong career. i'm tired of hearing people whine about how they don't make the 80,000 that they think they should earn as a teacher.
if you dont like the pay, then find a job that will allow you to live the lifestyle you want. i don t buy the argument that i had to quit teaching because i couldnt afford to make ends meet. i tend to hear that line mostly from idealistic, upper-middle class and abovers.
ive taught for fifteen years in juvenile corrections and in"at-risk" schools. I am currently living and working in a low-income area with a huge gang problem. i certainly do not teach for the money or the prestige, i do it, like Trick Daddy, says for the kids.
i'm glad that people will read these books and become aware
of the plight that teacher's experience. If you're unhappy, as you should be, organize and mobilize to get your agenda heard.
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» RE: bourgeoisie entitlement
Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: bourgeoisie entitlement - funny title!
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: giodi on Sep 15, 2005 2:52 PM
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» RE: why the low pay?
Posted by: hhartman
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Posted by: caracaskuhl on Sep 15, 2005 4:06 PM
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» RE: i fled the country
Posted by: tabebuia
» Stay in Venezula
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: Maryanne on Sep 15, 2005 4:17 PM
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A teacher is not made; a teacher is born. (And so not every one who goes into this profession is a good teacher.) However, teachers need to be well prepared- have a solid liberal arts education, be thoroughly knowledgeable in the subjects to be taught, have the skills to teach. as well as ability to create a classroom atmosphere geared toward learning. Preparation is essential- and costly.
No one who has taken teaching seriously can say that it is an easy job. Long hours, uncooperative parents, children out of control, lack of support from administration and the community, etc. are all extremely stressful. Only those who love teaching and are committed will continue in the face of obstacles. All this should be taken into account in determining salary (not whether they can live on what they get!)
The whole public school system needs review. Emphasis on reading and writing in the primary grades. No social advancement for children who have not met achievement levels. Expectation of proper behavior in school. Less large, centralized schools in favor of smaller schools where children are individuals not part of the mass. More emphasis on school spirit, school activities, perhaps longer school days (our kids were home by 2:15). All this is costly. (And teens rushing to jobs solely for spending money and cars is really counterproductive to their development.)
If you want a good product, you have to have quality ingredients. And you either invest now- or pay a great deal later!
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» RE: The issue is what teachers can live on?
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: LPB on Sep 15, 2005 5:57 PM
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» RE: I thought I wanted to be a teacher
Posted by: brer
» RE: I thought I wanted to be a teacher
Posted by: LPB
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Posted by: menckenman on Sep 15, 2005 6:08 PM
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The "good" public schools will survive in their own rich enclaves.
No one says lawyers or doctors are born not made. Teachers should not be mothers. Most schools don't have public, peer reviewed instructional practices, which is why they get things like standards and nclb done to them. Read Richard Elmore, School Reform from the Inside Out.
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» teachers should not be mothers - now hey wait a minute here!
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: KPelley on Sep 15, 2005 9:08 PM
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This public brainwashing by the right wing has continued since the defeat of Barry Goldwater. It was ramped up during the Reagan/bush administration and continues relentlessly today. My understanding is that the right wing wants to get rid of public schools and indoctrinate the young with their church schools to make "good little Christians" out of everyone--just like the communist party did in Russia. Poor teaching conditions sets up a situation where good teachers leave because of the pay and the students suffer. When the test scores fail, the kids can go to a private Christian school.
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» Deep comment and scary
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Sep 15, 2005 9:49 PM
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» Oh, none at all monkeywrench
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: starchild on Sep 15, 2005 11:44 PM
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Posted by: brer on Sep 16, 2005 5:00 AM
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As an older substitute teacher, I can tell you that when I leave school, HALF THE CARS HAVE ALREADY LEFT THE PARKING LOT! And I'm just a substitute---and I leave as soon as I can after straightening the room and leaving the teacher a note.
If you park near the high school, you'll see teachers who are "teaching to the contract" leaving the high school at precicely 2:10---that as long as they have to stay to fulfill their committment. My kids in their classes bring home papers they've sweat over that come back from the teachers with NO COMMENTS. One time my child embedded a whole section in the middle of his paper with French words, and the teacher didn't even notice.
And the biggest complaint we parents have is TENURE! We can't get rid of the lazy, bad teachers. We know there are good teachers. They should be paid even more, but we don't want to raise the pay across the board because of the inept teachers who languish year after year in the system, hurting kids, through indifference or overt actions.
I'm sick of teachers griping. What's WRONG with teachers having to take second jobs when they get off work at 2:10? Many (most?) folks don't get home from work until 6 pm.
Everyone knows that good teachers are never paid enough. I know there are a FEW teachers who stay late, or work on projects, homework, etc. at home. But they are few and far between. Maybe they should be paid more. But I don't want to up the pay of all teachers until they agree to find a way to get rid of the bad ones.
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Posted by: theywillknowusbyourabsurdity on Sep 16, 2005 5:33 AM
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Posted by: booktalker on Sep 16, 2005 6:33 AM
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That being said--I'd like to put in a word for public librarians. (Yes, I'm one.) If you think teachers are paid poorly, try working in a public library. (School librarians are teachers and are paid on a teacher's scale.)
My job isn't sitting around reading books and saying "sh!" either. It's demanding; for brevity's sake, trust me on this! And still, when I start to feel sorry for myself, I remember that social workers are probably paid even less for a job that's even more stressful!
I don't begrudge teachers one penny of their salaries. I think that overall, jobs that deal with children or with the less advantaged members of society are undervalued and underpaid. Certainly the attitude toward teachers reflect this.
Consider this, though. My sister and I started in our respective careers 16 years ago, she as a public school teacher and I as a public librarian. It was only a couple of years ago that my salary exceeded her starting salary from 16 years ago.
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Posted by: PTcommcollege on Sep 16, 2005 6:36 AM
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Posted by: justasking on Sep 16, 2005 1:45 PM
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» Good point
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: tabebuia on Sep 16, 2005 3:43 PM
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» RE: Poor pay brings mediocrity
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: hagwind on Sep 16, 2005 6:26 PM
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Problem #1: Areas where property values (and probably per capita incomes) are low generally have the least tax revenue to support public education, and these are often the areas where the need is greatest.
Problem #2: In other areas, like the one where I live, property values are being driven out of sight by gentrification, speculative development, and/or the second-home market. The result is that people who've been around a long time and don't have anywhere close to the income of the newcomers are struggling to pay their property taxes, which are based on the property's hypothetical resale value -- even if you have no interest in selling your home. So fighting to keep their homes translates into fighting property-tax increases, which translates into cutting, or at least level-funding, school budgets, among other things. It's a lose-lose situation.
The property tax is a regressive tax, and public education depends on it. No, I don't think for a minute that "privatizing" education is a worthy alternative: I think the market economy and the out-of-control me-me-me values it thrives on bear much of the responsibility for the mess the U.S. of A. is in. But we can't really address the issue of teacher compensation, or the quality of public education in general, without looking at where the money is coming from.
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» RE: fear of the soccer moms
Posted by: jmao
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Posted by: blogmommy on Sep 17, 2005 4:46 AM
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Posted by: Olympiada on Sep 17, 2005 9:18 AM
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So the impossible dream is indeed to have a family and be a teacher. This article was not around in 2000. Now that I have a child, I do not feel at all hopeful about becoming a teacher. I feel quite despondent indeed.
So I agree with all the commentators that if you want to be a teacher, do not be a parent. Choose.
Then again my daughter's kindergarten teacher has a 4 year old son. Then again she is still married.
There are no easy answers. That is the bottom line. But I know my daughter's teacher is often tired, and is 10+ years older than me.
This is a sorry state of affairs in America regarding public education. It has been. Why? It started out in segregration. The root is corrupt.
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Posted by: AJ on Sep 19, 2005 8:35 AM
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Posted by: chrisrtait on Sep 21, 2005 12:39 AM
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Posted by: ZPaul on Sep 15, 2005 6:17 AM
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Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 15, 2005 7:41 AM
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» RE: You think PA and NY are bad, come over to VA and other red states
Posted by: nadezhda
» RE: You think PA and NY are bad, come over to VA and other red states
Posted by: johnny-boy2
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Posted by: Olympiada on Sep 15, 2005 7:56 AM
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I left junior college to marry and start a family. Big f**king mistake. Don't do it . I finally graduated from junior college with my AA in Child Development. I got to meet the cute mayor of SF, for the third time, on the stage. I knew he was heading for divorce. Thought about chasing him. Nah. ;)
At any rate, now I no longer want to work as an early childhood educator. And everyone is like "you should be a teacher". Well I took a class called Orientation to Education at CCSF and the textbook was Savage Inequalities by Jonathan Kozol.
But I don't need to textbook to tell me about the problems. I dropped out of GWHS. I attended that famous Urban Pioneers program that got shut down because two kids died out in the wilderness. I got pneumonia when it was our turn to go camping, so I missed that.
This article paints a bleak and dismal picture...I have also been told I "should" be a counselor...It is possible that is the direction I might head in...As a single mother I can not afford to be crying on the floor praying to God cleaning toilets. I do enough that as it is in my vocation as a single mother. I do not want to do that for a living.
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» RE: so many teachers leave the profession early on is to marry and start families.
Posted by: baseplate
» RE: so many teachers leave the profession early on is to marry and start families.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» NIHILISM by Eugene Rose
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: NIHILISM by Eugene Rose
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Ok, sorry
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Ok, sorry
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Knowledge
Posted by: Olympiada
» Atheists and prayer part 1
Posted by: bornxeyed
» The Struggle with God by Paul Evodkimov p. 1
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: The Struggle with God by Paul Evodkimov p. 1
Posted by: bornxeyed
» creation vs. evolution
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: creation vs. evolution
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Bishop Usher
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Bishop Usher
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Nobel Winners Defend Teaching Evolution
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Nobel Winners Defend Teaching Evolution
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Write the critique!
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Write the critique!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» I know about the discussion in the archives
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: I know about the discussion in the archives
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Evolution
Posted by: Olympiada
» evolution
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Compassion
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Nobel Winners Defend Teaching Evolution
Posted by: bornxeyed
» I do not know enough about evolution today to ask questions so never mind
Posted by: Olympiada
» Atheists and prayer part 2
Posted by: bornxeyed
» I am humbled
Posted by: Olympiada
» Christian Apologetics
Posted by: Olympiada
» Olympiada & bornxeyed
Posted by: nadezhda
» Thank you
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: lamar on Sep 15, 2005 8:08 AM
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Imagine if you went to a career fair and the banner read: "Low pay, constant scrutiny, and underhanded politics" How fast would you run to sign up?
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» RE: Teaching promises a low salary career
Posted by: flairndip
» Perhaps lamar is bitter
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Teaching promises a low salary career
Posted by: Vay-ber
» Lamar does not have the power to beat any one up, he is expressing his feeling
Posted by: Olympiada
» Well you are smart lamar
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: CrystalD on Sep 15, 2005 8:23 AM
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Which brings me to another idea we discussed, that teaching is viewed as a "last resort" career for those who can't hack it in other fields. There was a time when teaching was viewed as a terrific career - indeed just about the ONLY career - for bright, educated young women who wanted to work. Now these bright young women go into law or business or graphic design or what have you, and teaching has gotten the reputation as an easy-peasy career choice for ditzes or dullards. Not that this IS true, but it's what is PERCEIVED.
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» Teaching as a back up
Posted by: crz53
» RE: Teaching as a back up
Posted by: CrystalD
» RE: Lack of respect for the teaching profession
Posted by: drpatti
» Law
Posted by: Olympiada
» Teacher, mother, nurse -- is there a common thread here?
Posted by: janvdb
» Interesting point on mothers, let me muse for a moment
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Interesting point on mothers, let me muse for a moment
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Polygamy
Posted by: Olympiada
» What's the other board CrystalD?
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: LeisureGuy on Sep 15, 2005 8:30 AM
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» There has always been a lack of support for teachers
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Sep 15, 2005 9:29 AM
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In my small town (pop. 450) high school, teachers are earning about $30,000/year. Maybe that doesn't sound like much, but the average person in my community is earning $18,000/ year. Plus--they have an outstanding health and pension package. I would guess that at least half the jobs in my area have minimal if any health coverage. As far as retirement plans, a recent economic development commission report in my area stated that only 24% of local employers have any sort of pension/401 k plan for their workers.
And boy, if the public school teachers have it good my area, you should see what the local community colleges pay! I am a pc tech with 10+ years experience. The best job I have been able to get pays $24,000/year. Recently, our local college advertised for a pc tech position and they were offering $40 k for this position! People in the IT industry around here that I talked to were stunned at the generous compensation. Additionally, the local community colleges (there are two in my local area) pay 100% of their employees health costs--try to find a private company that does that nowadays.
I am sure that the conditions here in Nebraska can't be much different that it is for teachers in most other similar states. I really wish we could all be making good money, have less hours, etc. And it is easy to run around yelling "TEACHERS ARE HAVING IT TOUGH!! TEACHERS NEED MORE PAY!!" To which the average working Joe would reply "So What, I'm having it tough too!"
I think the issue needs to be set against the larger one of the general decline in wages for ALL working people, and the general decline of the middle class. It is heartbreaking for me to see in my local area college educated people who can't get ANY job who would be glad to take on the job of a public school teacher.
Sorry folks, but at least where I live teachers--while having some of the negative things mentioned in the article--are doing very well in relation to others in my local work force.
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» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: jmao
» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: drpatti
» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: flairndip
» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: may261989
» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Low pay? Two jobs to make ends meet? It's the same for other working folks too!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Interesting comment.
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Sep 15, 2005 9:32 AM
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"Kwanzaa From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Not to be confused with the Kwanza River in Angola, or the Angolan currency, "Kwanza".
Kwanzaa is a week-long, African American holiday observance held from December 26 to January 1. Timed to serve as an alternative to the growing commercialism of Christmas, it was founded in 1966 by Ron Everett, a.k.a. Ron Karenga, African-American activist, convicted felon, and director of the Black Studies department at the California State University, Long Beach. Kwanzaa is not a religious holiday, but a cultural one, a syncretic festival, based on various elements of the first harvest celebrations widely celebrated in Africa, around the 10th month of the year. According to a survey conducted by the National Retail Foundation in October 2004, 1.6% of consumers celebrate Kwanzaa."
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» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: Basenjis
» Hi kittynboi, I respectfully disagree
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: decembrist
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: canuckistani
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: poonoggin
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: baseplate
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Good point bornxeyed
Posted by: Olympiada
» Thank you, I agree baseplate
Posted by: Olympiada
» This is a dumb comment poonoggin
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: There's no such thing as dumb comments, just dumb responses
Posted by: poonoggin
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Why Do Our Teachers Treat The Truth So Poorly?
Posted by: Basenjis
» Basenjis, where is your proof for this claim?
Posted by: Olympiada
» What do you mean all holidays are made up bornxeyed?
Posted by: Olympiada
» Ok - jumping into the fray
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Ok - jumping into the fray
Posted by: baseplate
» My dear friend baseplate, whatever gave you the idea I was an atheist?!
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Ok - jumping into the fray
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Ok - jumping into the fray
Posted by: bornxeyed
» correction regarding true African holiday
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: Sojourner on Sep 15, 2005 9:58 AM
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Individual freedom? It's not for sale. It must be earned by self-development. It takes a dull mind to allow public officials to create the chain-gang of rush hour freeway traffic. The same dull mind supports a war on terrorism, a war in Iraq, and a war on drugs -- none of which can be won. All of which can be found in Orwell's "1984," which dull minds cannot read.
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» RE: Orwell's "1984" Accurately Predicted Our Current Condition
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Orwell's "1984" Accurately Predicted Our Current Condition
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: poonoggin on Sep 15, 2005 10:19 AM
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» RE: One honestly must ask...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: One honestly must ask...
Posted by: nadezhda
» Yeah - if the parents are teaching them
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: saramarie on Sep 15, 2005 10:22 AM
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Another teacher recently told the class that teaching was at least a little better than working 22 hours a week at McD's and making only $12K a year. If I had been drinking something then, I probably would have choked nearly to death and had to leave the classroom! I work about 40 hours a week for little over minimum wage every week and will probably not take home more than $10K this year.
I've been told by some wiser souls that the problem with many teachers is that they never left the education system and really, really went out into the real world, the one that the rest of us live in, so they have no perspective and exaggerate their "hardships" to the rest of us.
I'm going to be a teacher, eventually. High school History. I couldn't think of a profession I could get more out of. I'd rather be doing the world a service by helping out kids in a classroom than selling them crap that will make them overweight, and I can get full benefits, weekends, holidays, and summers off. Also, the minimum a teacher seems to make in NY is about $30K a year, three times what I currently make. I can stop worrying about whether I can pay increasingly expensive energy bills (trust me, utility cut-offs are the most nerve-racking, humiliating experiences you can go through!) and buy a decent car with an income like that (I currently take a bus everywhere)! Also, you know that teaching is a demanding job, so if you want to do it, maybe you should think twice before starting a family. I know I don't want one. Think about it this way: you know you wouldn't get a puppy if you had to be at work all day, so why have a kid? Is it really fair? Instead of making more little problem children, help out some of the ones already existing... in the classroom.
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» RE: Boo Freakin' Hoo
Posted by: txjill
» Kids for txjill
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Such twisted thoughts need air
Posted by: poonoggin
» Be careful what you pray for
Posted by: Sojourner
» The prayers of the saints have stopped floods
Posted by: Olympiada
» Hello Sara Marie
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Hello Sara Marie
Posted by: decembrist
» The pleasures of the nooky-nooky ROTFLMAO - but wait
Posted by: Olympiada
» The Issue Is About What Society Places Value In
Posted by: decembrist
» Excellent point decemberist
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Boo Freakin' Hoo
Posted by: Pascale
» child-centered progressivist doctrines.
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Boo Freakin' Hoo
Posted by: Basenjis
» That's judgemental basenjis
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: akdave on Sep 15, 2005 10:28 AM
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I spent two years in school and went into debt to become certified to teach science and mathematics. I trained under a master teacher and really felt I had found my niche. I taught for three years working 10-12 hours a day, six days a week, and despite students who had no discipline at home and administrators who had private agendas, I loved my job. At the end of three years I was let go with no explanation. I spent the next five years trying to get another full time position but was repeatedly turned down due to my age, 40s, and my MS degree. I finally realized older teachers are less malleable and why pay for additional education when you can get a cheap, fresh teacher straight out of college.
I am now a statistician (went back to school again!) and teach part time at a local community college. I still love to teach but can not afford to do it full time.
Only a non-teacher would think its an easy job. The three months 'off' are necessary to recharge for the next school year, and, of course, take those required classes to maintain your certification!
Peace,
David
Kodiak
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» RE: Been there...
Posted by: Basenjis
» Thank you David
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: Shakti on Sep 15, 2005 11:23 AM
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Amazingly, given the terrible academic job market, I finally found a non-tenure track position. The pay is not great but I love teaching.
So, I have thought very deeply about this issue - why do I love teaching so much, why does it pay so poorly, why do people not value teaching as a profession?
I think the reason research is valued more than teaching is that research is more about intellect and teaching is more about emotions - head versus heart. To teach well, one must *care* about the students ... teaching is a form of service to humanity. It can even be a kind of healing in the sense that you are helping young people grow whole. Head-oriented occupations pay more than heart-oriented occupations. Look at medicine and nursing.
Teaching young children is very much like parenting, and we know how much our society values full-time parents. As a nation we scorn feminine, nurturing, caring, compassionate approaches and valorize masculine, disciplining, conquering, competitive approaches to just about everything (including governance). No wonder teaching pays so little.
Also, because children (and seniors) do not contribute to the GNP, they are discounted and the persons who care for them are not valued and therefore do not earn much, if they earn anything at all.
The sorry state of education in this country is a direct result, in my opinion, of underlying societal values that have diminished all things "yin" and aggrandized all things "yang."
It is, of course, short sighted, unwise, and unsustainable, as are all systems so unbalanced.
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» RE: I LOVE to teach
Posted by: redjenny
» RE: I LOVE to teach
Posted by: cindyw
» RE: I LOVE to teach
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: I LOVE to teach
Posted by: LPB
» Beautiful comment Shakti, absolutely beautiful
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: cameron2610 on Sep 15, 2005 11:24 AM
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I definitely sympathize with those whose real wages are decreasing in a country with growing economic inequality, but why do people feel sorry for themselves when their own children drive them into poverty? Having children is an option, and at around $10,000 each per year (as the author points out), you'd be better off filling your garage with luxury cars. What do you expect when you create something that you know will consume all your time and resources? And Earth is already overpopulated by humans, who make life worse for all other species. "But I just feel in my heart that it will work out somehow." "But I'm meant to have a family!" Get over it then. It's up to you to be strong and make smart decisions (in areas where you do have a choice) or you'll suffer. That's the world we live in.
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» That's right, don't reproduce, I did, and never will again, so DONT FALL IN LOVE
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: hhartman on Sep 15, 2005 11:29 AM
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The NCLB Act did nothing to help children, it just created a system to where underpreforming schools lose money. Now, it may just be common sense, but I would think instead of taking funding away from schools that have no money and in fact leaving the schools unable to teach their chilren, you reinvest money into those schools so that they can have the tools to better educate kids. Yet, that would make sense to me.
I am starting to believe my friend who theorizes that it is part of the right wing, fundamentalist christian agenda to defund public schools because they do not teach "Christian Values". But I digress....
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» Right Wing Fundamentalists
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: amblings
Posted by: cindyw
» RE: amblings
Posted by: bornxeyed
» you like this comment bornxeyed?
Posted by: Olympiada
» Perhaps education is not so idealistic
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: amblings
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: txjill on Sep 15, 2005 11:34 AM
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That is too bad, but I make 6 figures now and life is easy compared to the hard work I did teaching and socializing the kids, working on things parents should teach at home. The other problem is that you have to follow so many guidelines to follow and "teach to the test" issues, which leaves out all the creative ways you can present information to a child and teach that child to love learning.
I am a Liberal, but I have to wonder if teaching was set up like a business and paid that way, would we not get some incredible teachers and plenty of resources at their disposal? What I cannot understand is why the bigger picture is not seen here. We could effectively wipe out some of this teen pregnancy, people being poor, abuse and probably crime if more was invested in education.
I have been on both sides and yes, there are lazy teachers, but if the standards aren't set higher and the pay higher, you are going to have lousy teachers. Do you think the person who cooked your fries really gives a crap how well those fries are cooked at Mickey Ds?
Like any profession...until you walk a mile in those shoes, you don't know what it is like.
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» working on things parents should teach at home.
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: PalEBoy on Sep 15, 2005 11:40 AM
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I think that if you get into teaching young, when you have low expenses, you can rise thru the salary ranks and make a decent living. The problem, as I see it, is that to effectively teach math/science at the high school level, you have to had real-world experience. And that means mid-career switching; which the current union negotiated salary structures do not support. You're right at the bottom with a kid fresh out of school and no real-world experience. Who suffers for this? The very people being served; the kids.
I brought this up with my local congresscritter and the response was how he was suppportive of mentor initiatives to help keep new teachers in the profession. He couldn't get it thru his skull that It's the money, stupid!. Sigh. MA offered up 20k$ bonus for people to get into teaching (paid out over 4 years; 5k$/yr). This fast-tracked you to getting a license. But, you had to commit to teaching in an underperforming district. Frankly, putting a brand new teacher in underperforming districts is, IMO, a perfect recipie for quick burnout. Also, MA reneged on the last year of the payout. How would that make someone feel?
So, now I'm back in industry. One of my former students used me in her college application as an example of someone who openned her eyes to the possibilities of math. The essay had me in tears. I could still be making that difference; but for the lack of $$.
I think the undersupport of education is symptomatic of undersupport of any publicly funded activity. The funding mechanism doesn't scale. Another way of funding education (and public works in general) must be found.
I don't have any answers; but dammit I do see the symptoms of the problems every day. People who think intelligent design (I won't grace it with capital letters) is real is a symptom of poor education. People who let a government lie to them and yet eat it up and vote against their economic self-interest; who aren't capable of critical thought. That's another symptom.
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Posted by: lamar on Sep 15, 2005 11:57 AM
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» RE: ural Nebraska vs. Urban Orlando
Posted by: monkeywrench
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Posted by: lamar on Sep 15, 2005 12:02 PM
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» Then fix the unions rather than killing them
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: UNIONS ARE A SCAM!!!
Posted by: hhartman
» RE: UNIONS ARE A SCAM!!!
Posted by: bettsoff
» You are right
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: UNIONS ARE A SCAM!!!
Posted by: brer
» Now wait a minute here, don't go blaming the victim
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: akdave on Sep 15, 2005 12:03 PM
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I guess while Norquist's buddies is starving the government so they can drown it in the bathtub they are making sure the voting public is too ignorant to figure out what is going on...
Peace,
David
Kodiak
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» RE: Conspiracy?
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: pickeju on Sep 15, 2005 12:06 PM
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» Sounds familiar... in French too
Posted by: Cécile
» We need to look at the root of the system
Posted by: Olympiada
» And I know you are not baseplate, he just thought I had all the answers
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: blogmommy on Sep 15, 2005 12:13 PM
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» Yes!
Posted by: crz53
» You are your child's first teacher
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: You are your child's first teacher
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Good arguement bornxeyed
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: jmao on Sep 15, 2005 12:23 PM
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but this is not new news. if you entered the teaching profession and expected to make money and be rewarded for your dedication, you have obviously chosen the wrong career. i'm tired of hearing people whine about how they don't make the 80,000 that they think they should earn as a teacher.
if you dont like the pay, then find a job that will allow you to live the lifestyle you want. i don t buy the argument that i had to quit teaching because i couldnt afford to make ends meet. i tend to hear that line mostly from idealistic, upper-middle class and abovers.
ive taught for fifteen years in juvenile corrections and in"at-risk" schools. I am currently living and working in a low-income area with a huge gang problem. i certainly do not teach for the money or the prestige, i do it, like Trick Daddy, says for the kids.
i'm glad that people will read these books and become aware
of the plight that teacher's experience. If you're unhappy, as you should be, organize and mobilize to get your agenda heard.
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» RE: bourgeoisie entitlement
Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: bourgeoisie entitlement - funny title!
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: giodi on Sep 15, 2005 2:52 PM
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» RE: why the low pay?
Posted by: hhartman
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Posted by: caracaskuhl on Sep 15, 2005 4:06 PM
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» RE: i fled the country
Posted by: tabebuia
» Stay in Venezula
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: Maryanne on Sep 15, 2005 4:17 PM
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A teacher is not made; a teacher is born. (And so not every one who goes into this profession is a good teacher.) However, teachers need to be well prepared- have a solid liberal arts education, be thoroughly knowledgeable in the subjects to be taught, have the skills to teach. as well as ability to create a classroom atmosphere geared toward learning. Preparation is essential- and costly.
No one who has taken teaching seriously can say that it is an easy job. Long hours, uncooperative parents, children out of control, lack of support from administration and the community, etc. are all extremely stressful. Only those who love teaching and are committed will continue in the face of obstacles. All this should be taken into account in determining salary (not whether they can live on what they get!)
The whole public school system needs review. Emphasis on reading and writing in the primary grades. No social advancement for children who have not met achievement levels. Expectation of proper behavior in school. Less large, centralized schools in favor of smaller schools where children are individuals not part of the mass. More emphasis on school spirit, school activities, perhaps longer school days (our kids were home by 2:15). All this is costly. (And teens rushing to jobs solely for spending money and cars is really counterproductive to their development.)
If you want a good product, you have to have quality ingredients. And you either invest now- or pay a great deal later!
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» RE: The issue is what teachers can live on?
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: LPB on Sep 15, 2005 5:57 PM
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» RE: I thought I wanted to be a teacher
Posted by: brer
» RE: I thought I wanted to be a teacher
Posted by: LPB
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Posted by: menckenman on Sep 15, 2005 6:08 PM
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The "good" public schools will survive in their own rich enclaves.
No one says lawyers or doctors are born not made. Teachers should not be mothers. Most schools don't have public, peer reviewed instructional practices, which is why they get things like standards and nclb done to them. Read Richard Elmore, School Reform from the Inside Out.
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» teachers should not be mothers - now hey wait a minute here!
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: KPelley on Sep 15, 2005 9:08 PM
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This public brainwashing by the right wing has continued since the defeat of Barry Goldwater. It was ramped up during the Reagan/bush administration and continues relentlessly today. My understanding is that the right wing wants to get rid of public schools and indoctrinate the young with their church schools to make "good little Christians" out of everyone--just like the communist party did in Russia. Poor teaching conditions sets up a situation where good teachers leave because of the pay and the students suffer. When the test scores fail, the kids can go to a private Christian school.
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» Deep comment and scary
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Sep 15, 2005 9:49 PM
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» Oh, none at all monkeywrench
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: starchild on Sep 15, 2005 11:44 PM
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Posted by: brer on Sep 16, 2005 5:00 AM
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As an older substitute teacher, I can tell you that when I leave school, HALF THE CARS HAVE ALREADY LEFT THE PARKING LOT! And I'm just a substitute---and I leave as soon as I can after straightening the room and leaving the teacher a note.
If you park near the high school, you'll see teachers who are "teaching to the contract" leaving the high school at precicely 2:10---that as long as they have to stay to fulfill their committment. My kids in their classes bring home papers they've sweat over that come back from the teachers with NO COMMENTS. One time my child embedded a whole section in the middle of his paper with French words, and the teacher didn't even notice.
And the biggest complaint we parents have is TENURE! We can't get rid of the lazy, bad teachers. We know there are good teachers. They should be paid even more, but we don't want to raise the pay across the board because of the inept teachers who languish year after year in the system, hurting kids, through indifference or overt actions.
I'm sick of teachers griping. What's WRONG with teachers having to take second jobs when they get off work at 2:10? Many (most?) folks don't get home from work until 6 pm.
Everyone knows that good teachers are never paid enough. I know there are a FEW teachers who stay late, or work on projects, homework, etc. at home. But they are few and far between. Maybe they should be paid more. But I don't want to up the pay of all teachers until they agree to find a way to get rid of the bad ones.
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Posted by: theywillknowusbyourabsurdity on Sep 16, 2005 5:33 AM
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Posted by: booktalker on Sep 16, 2005 6:33 AM
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That being said--I'd like to put in a word for public librarians. (Yes, I'm one.) If you think teachers are paid poorly, try working in a public library. (School librarians are teachers and are paid on a teacher's scale.)
My job isn't sitting around reading books and saying "sh!" either. It's demanding; for brevity's sake, trust me on this! And still, when I start to feel sorry for myself, I remember that social workers are probably paid even less for a job that's even more stressful!
I don't begrudge teachers one penny of their salaries. I think that overall, jobs that deal with children or with the less advantaged members of society are undervalued and underpaid. Certainly the attitude toward teachers reflect this.
Consider this, though. My sister and I started in our respective careers 16 years ago, she as a public school teacher and I as a public librarian. It was only a couple of years ago that my salary exceeded her starting salary from 16 years ago.
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Posted by: PTcommcollege on Sep 16, 2005 6:36 AM
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Posted by: justasking on Sep 16, 2005 1:45 PM
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» Good point
Posted by: Olympiada
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Posted by: tabebuia on Sep 16, 2005 3:43 PM
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» RE: Poor pay brings mediocrity
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: hagwind on Sep 16, 2005 6:26 PM
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Problem #1: Areas where property values (and probably per capita incomes) are low generally have the least tax revenue to support public education, and these are often the areas where the need is greatest.
Problem #2: In other areas, like the one where I live, property values are being driven out of sight by gentrification, speculative development, and/or the second-home market. The result is that people who've been around a long time and don't have anywhere close to the income of the newcomers are struggling to pay their property taxes, which are based on the property's hypothetical resale value -- even if you have no interest in selling your home. So fighting to keep their homes translates into fighting property-tax increases, which translates into cutting, or at least level-funding, school budgets, among other things. It's a lose-lose situation.
The property tax is a regressive tax, and public education depends on it. No, I don't think for a minute that "privatizing" education is a worthy alternative: I think the market economy and the out-of-control me-me-me values it thrives on bear much of the responsibility for the mess the U.S. of A. is in. But we can't really address the issue of teacher compensation, or the quality of public education in general, without looking at where the money is coming from.
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» RE: fear of the soccer moms
Posted by: jmao
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Posted by: blogmommy on Sep 17, 2005 4:46 AM
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Posted by: Olympiada on Sep 17, 2005 9:18 AM
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So the impossible dream is indeed to have a family and be a teacher. This article was not around in 2000. Now that I have a child, I do not feel at all hopeful about becoming a teacher. I feel quite despondent indeed.
So I agree with all the commentators that if you want to be a teacher, do not be a parent. Choose.
Then again my daughter's kindergarten teacher has a 4 year old son. Then again she is still married.
There are no easy answers. That is the bottom line. But I know my daughter's teacher is often tired, and is 10+ years older than me.
This is a sorry state of affairs in America regarding public education. It has been. Why? It started out in segregration. The root is corrupt.
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Posted by: AJ on Sep 19, 2005 8:35 AM
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Posted by: chrisrtait on Sep 21, 2005 12:39 AM
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