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White People's Burden

By Robert Jensen, AlterNet. Posted August 31, 2005.


It's time for white Americans to fully acknowledge that in the racial arena, they are the problem.
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White People's Burden
White People's Burden

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Editor's Note: This essay is excerpted from The Heart of Whiteness: Confronting Race, Racism and White Privilege, forthcoming from City Lights, September 2005.

The United States is a white country. By that I don't just mean that the majority of its citizens are white, though they are (for now but not forever). What makes the United States white is not the fact that most Americans are white but the assumption -- especially by people with power -- that American equals white. Those people don't say it outright. It comes out in subtle ways. Or, sometimes, in ways not so subtle.

Here's an example: I'm in line at a store, unavoidably eavesdropping on two white men in front of me, as one tells the other about a construction job he was on. He says: "There was this guy and three Mexicans standing next to the truck." From other things he said, it was clear that "this guy" was Anglo, white, American. It also was clear from the conversation that this man had not spoken to the "three Mexicans" and had no way of knowing whether they were Mexicans or U.S. citizens of Mexican heritage.

It didn't matter. The "guy" was the default setting for American: Anglo, white. The "three Mexicans" were not Anglo, not white, and therefore not American. It wasn't "four guys standing by a truck." It was "a guy and three Mexicans." The race and/or ethnicity of the four men were irrelevant to the story he was telling. But the storyteller had to mark it. It was important that "the guy" not be confused with "the three Mexicans."

Here's another example, from the Rose Garden. At a 2004 news conference outside the White House, President George W. Bush explained that he believed democracy would come to Iraq over time:

"There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern. I believe that people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than white can self-govern."
It appears the president intended the phrase "people whose skin color may not be the same as ours" to mean people who are not from the United States. That skin color he refers to that is "ours," he makes it clear, is white. Those people not from the United States are "a different color than white." So, white is the skin color of the United States. That means those whose skin is not white but are citizens of the United States are ...? What are they? Are they members in good standing in the nation, even if "their skin color may not be the same as ours"?

This is not simply making fun of a president who sometimes mangles the English language. This time he didn't misspeak, and there's nothing funny about it. He did seem to get confused when he moved from talking about skin color to religion (does he think there are no white Muslims?), but it seems clear that he intended to say that brown people -- Iraqis, Arabs, Muslims, people from the Middle East, whatever the category in his mind -- can govern themselves, even though they don't look like us. And "us" is clearly white. In making this magnanimous proclamation of faith in the capacities of people in other parts of the world, in proclaiming his belief in their ability to govern themselves, he made one thing clear: The United States is white. Or, more specifically, being a real "American" is being white. So, what do we do with citizens of the United States who aren't white?

That's the question for which this country has never quite found an answer: What do white "Americans" do with those who share the country but aren't white? What do we do with peoples we once tried to exterminate? People we once enslaved? People we imported for labor and used like animals to build railroads? People we still systematically exploit as low-wage labor? All those people -- indigenous, African, Asian, Latino -- can obtain the legal rights of citizenship. That's a significant political achievement in some respects, and that popular movements that forced the powerful to give people those rights give us the most inspiring stories in U.S. history.

The degree to which many white people in one generation dramatically shifted their worldview to see people they once considered to be subhuman as political equals is not trivial, no matter how deep the problems of white supremacy we still live with.In many comparable societies, problems of racism are as ugly, if not uglier, than in the United States. If you doubt that, ask a Turk what it is like to live in Germany, an Algerian what it's like to live in France, a black person what it's like to live in Japan. We can acknowledge the gains made in the United States -- always understanding those gains came because non-white people, with some white allies, forced society to change -- while still acknowledging the severity of the problem that remains.

But it doesn't answer the question: What do white "Americans" do with those who share the country but aren't white?

We can pretend that we have reached "the end of racism" and continue to ignore the question. But that's just plain stupid. We can acknowledge that racism still exists and celebrate diversity, but avoid the political, economic, and social consequences of white supremacy. But, frankly, that's just as stupid. The fact is that most of the white population of the United States has never really known what to do with those who aren't white. Let me suggest a different approach.

Let's go back to the question that W.E.B. Du Bois said he knew was on the minds of white people. In the opening of his 1903 classic, The Souls of Black Folk, Du Bois wrote that the real question whites wanted to ask him, but were afraid to, was: "How does it feel to be a problem?" Du Bois was identifying a burden that blacks carried -- being seen by the dominant society not as people but as a problem people, as a people who posed a problem for the rest of society. Du Bois was right to identify "the color line" as the problem of the 20th century. Now, in the 21st century, it is time for whites to self-consciously reverse the direction of that question at heart of color. It's time for white people to fully acknowledge that in the racial arena, we are the problem. We have to ask ourselves: How does it feel to be the problem?

The simple answer: Not very good.

That is the new White People's Burden, to understand that we are the problem, come to terms with what that really means, and act based on that understanding. Our burden is to do something that doesn't seem to come natural to people in positions of unearned power and privilege: Look in the mirror honestly and concede that we live in an unjust society and have no right to some of what we have. We should not affirm ourselves. We should negate our whiteness. Strip ourselves of the illusion that we are special because we are white. Steel ourselves so that we can walk in the world fully conscious and try to see what is usually invisible to us white people. We should learn to ask ourselves, "How does it feel to be the problem?"
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Robert Jensen is a professor of journalism at the University of Texas at Austin.

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I am an American first
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Just Some Dude on Aug 31, 2005 1:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Always have been and always will be an American. I just so happen to be white too. I resent the fact that the author labels me as being white before being an American. It's attitudes like this that are keeping racism alive and well.

Who cares what color you are? I am sick and tired of having to watch what I say around people like this. My wife is a Chinese American and I call her "Yellow Chick" and she calls me "White Boy", the bleeding left friends I have cringe when they hear us refer to each other like this. It's not a slam against either one of us. Who cares.

Over hearing someone say that there was a guy and three Mexicans just adds, for lack of a better word, color to the story. Does the author suggest that we just pretend that color and cultures do not exist in our country? Does he suggest that we quit refering to people of other cultures as being from other cultures?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a leftie, but some of this P.C. crap is going a bit too far.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: the casual and ironic use of a name Posted by: Just Some Dude
» RE: sticks and stones Posted by: Unbowed
» Why is yellow a slur? Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: often used as a put down Posted by: Unbowed
» Come to an understanding? Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: sticks and stones Posted by: tripllll
» ways of looking at things Posted by: Unbowed
» Lenny Bruce Posted by: Olympiada
» Nasty Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Nasty Posted by: Unbowed
» One can not live in fear Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Nasty Posted by: Unbowed
» RE: Lenny Bruce Posted by: mochajava13
» Interest Posted by: Olympiada
» Please accept my apology Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: I am an American first Posted by: kbroshears
» RE: I am an American first Posted by: jeffrey7
» RE: I am an American first Posted by: kittykat
» RE: I am an American first Posted by: mochajava13
» RE: I am an American first Posted by: eaprez
» RE: I am an American first Posted by: DivabyLaw
» RE: I am an American first Posted by: wili59
Hate is the problem. Prejudice is the problem.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Samantha Vimes on Aug 31, 2005 1:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whites who fight racial injustice in the workplace, the courtroom, every where they encounter it are not the problem. Whites who inherited no money and no status are not the problem-- they've had to struggle for education and respect as well. Blaming a race-- any race-- is counterproductive. Conservatives have railed a long time against the idea we have feel guilty over the sins of our ancestors-- and not always a person's own ancestors, because how is a white whose ancestors immigrated in the 1890s responsible for Amerind deaths or slavery?

The productive solution is to fight what is going on now, such as assumptions of tokenism by the narrowminded, invisibility of minorities in media. Universities should stop the entire 'legacy student' folly which discriminates against anyone, of any race, who didn't have relatives who could afford the schools in question. We *do* need to be aware that racism is still a threat, and we do need a president who doesn't think American=white (I hope Rice kicked his ass). But blaming ALL whites for SOME whites being stupid is... stupid.

Besides, I'm pinkish-biegey-with-blue-undertones, thank you very much. White is not a human color. Sorry, pet peeve there.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Ignorance is the problem. Posted by: serioustrouble
» RE: Ignorance is the problem. Posted by: johnc271
» separatism Posted by: Olympiada
» Who are you unbowed? Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Who are you unbowed? Posted by: Unbowed
» Blessed are the peacemakers Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Ignorance is the problem. Posted by: KikiClaire
» blacks sold blacks into slavery Posted by: Olympiada
» Get lost in all of it a bit? Posted by: Olympiada
» A good start. Posted by: retsam
» RE: A good start. Posted by: retsam
» Creativity is the answer Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: A good start. Posted by: retsam
» We democrats? Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: We democrats? Posted by: retsam
» the attraction Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Ignorance is the problem. Posted by: mochajava13
» Thank Nakis Posted by: Olympiada
» white man Posted by: Olympiada
I not only disagree, but I think you are the problem!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: flatulence11 on Aug 31, 2005 2:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its people like you, Robert, who are keeping the fires of racism burning today.
America has come a long way. I refuse to admit that blacks or whites are a problem. I do however, think that politically corect, pulitzer seeking , authors are a BIG problem!
You dont represent the majority of Americans, and your generalizing statements are ignorant at best.
Good day

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» Nail, hammer, hit on head Posted by: agarillo
» RE: don't be so reactionary Posted by: agarillo
» Really? Posted by: retsam
» authors Posted by: Olympiada
What it means to me
[Report this comment]
Posted by: mmnichols on Aug 31, 2005 2:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In reading the article I see that it is an invitation to look at the issue. We cannot deal with a problem until we admit it exists. This is an opportunity to discuss what we think. In reading the responses it appears to me that the authors would prefer to not look at it. I can understand that. Any time I hear something, or read, something that makes me feel uncomfortable my first response is to want the other person to stop talking or writing. I work at reading or listening so that I can grow as a person. The more I do not want to hear, or read it, the more I need to. The only way any laws changed to ensure the rights of black people in this country was that those in charge, white men, worked at understanding their own prejudices and wrote laws, i.e. the 14th admendment, that granted full citizenship to blacks. To be unwilling to look at the situation, from the another perspective, does nothing to help us grow. I thank the author of the article for bringing this to my attention. I am sometimes amazed at how easy it is to forget that others have different opinions and that those opinions are as valid as mine.

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» RE: What it means to me Posted by: professordek
» RE: What it means to me Posted by: DivabyLaw
Define the crime.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Colin on Aug 31, 2005 3:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think this is an interesting article that highlights an important issue. Personally, I agree with (most) of the authors sentiments. However, there are certain avenues that need to be explored. I will do that the only way I know how.

If I take myself, I can walk down the road past, say, five white people, and the first thing I’ll notice might be if they're pretty (if they’re girls) or maybe what they’re wearing (again, if they’re girls), but if I walk past someone with a different ancestry, the first thing I notice is that they have a different ancestry, regardless of what they are wearing or how attractive they are – that comes second.

Let me clarify here – I attach no morality or personal sentiment to my observations. The fact that I notice this does not mean that I make value judgements about whomever I’m looking at. But I cannot deny that this process takes place.

This leaves me in a predicament. Liberalism tells me that I’m not only to treat everyone as equally, but that I should perceive everyone as being the same. I cannot reconcile these two contradictions. My innate self – my nature – works in opposition to the way the liberal world wants it too. If this is the case for me, I’m betting it’s true of you too.

The issue deals with my main hang up with liberalism. It’s ideology is based on what humans have the potential to be without taking into account what they actually are. Unfortunately, if you're expecting people to start being anything other than people just because there is a better way, you'll end up disappointed. Indeed, so insecure will people feel that they can’t be the person they ‘should’ be, that they will go too far the other way, a little like my contemporaries above.

Personally, I don’t see a crime in George Bush noticing the difference between white people and everyone else, deliberately or accidentally. In fact, I’d go further as to say that I don’t believe, by definition, there can be a crime until someone acts based on such a distinction.

So, to the author of the article I would suggest that there is no real way to eliminate the problem outright, the only solution is to accept, and work on it, until it is no problem. Personally, my ideal world would be one where everyone is so comfortable with who they are that it wouldn’t matter what everyone else thought.

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» RE: Define the crime. Posted by: jeanie
» :) Posted by: Olympiada
» Strong wit Posted by: Olympiada
Lenny Bruce
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Tom Degan on Aug 31, 2005 3:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lenny Bruce put it well:
"How many negroes are there in America? I assume at least some census takers have been remiss in their duties and not reporting the full numbers, 'I'm not going into those shithouses, are you kidding me? Hey sonny, how many of you people live in this neighborhood? What? OK, I'll write that down, fourteen'.

"Then sooner or later you're gonna find an all black jury and an all black judge, "THEY'RE ALL BLACK! HOW THE HELL AM I GONNA GET A FAIR SHAKE WITH AND ALL BLACK JURRY??? You're not. Ha! Ha! Ha!"

Good old Lenny! He spoke to us then; He speaks to us still.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY

"'

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» Good Old Lenny Posted by: decembrist
» RE: Lenny Bruce Posted by: Unbowed
I will not be ashamed of my heritage
[Report this comment]
Posted by: John_Clinton on Aug 31, 2005 3:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Okay, so this article was a bit sketch. It did bring up a few good points, but it also left out a lot of important things. For example:

"People we imported for labor and used like animals to build railroads? People we still systematically exploit as low-wage labor?"

Yes, what do we do with the Irish? While I understand that it was easier for the Irish to integrate into society eventually, the country used to hate the Irish, and Catholics, just as much as they hated Asians, or Africans, or whoever else. Every group of immigrants has their issues upon first arriving, but the point is to get past it and work for tolerance. I'm not saying it's an Arab's fault that she is being persecuted, I'm just saying that she's not experiencing anything that white immigrants such as the Irish didn't experience.

Another point that the author misses is that much of America grows up in rural areas. Rural areas are far less likely to have racial diversity than urban areas. If I haven't been brought up around, say, black folk it's a natural reaction to see the color first and then everything else, merely because psychologically I'm trained to notice a difference in my surroundings, and a different skin color qualifies.

I also take issue with the last paragraph that tells me I should negate my heritage. I think that's utter bullshit. I can be just as proud of my various European heritages as anyone else can be proud of their heritage. Does that mean I think mine is better than theirs? Of course not. But I'm proud of it nonetheless. I hate this kind of crap that says I need to be ashamed of being white.

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» angry defensiveness Posted by: Olympiada
» Right on! Posted by: Olympiada
» hate Posted by: Olympiada
Missed the point
[Report this comment]
Posted by: jsoulnh on Aug 31, 2005 4:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think you all missed the point (comments above)!
--Johanna from Concord, NH

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Don't be scared
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Angie on Aug 31, 2005 4:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I appreciate Colin's courage in honesty and objectively assessing his own actions, thoughts, feelings, etc. I find that is very difficult for people; esp those who like to think of themselves as doing well in the areas of morality, integrity, etc. It is hard to consider that "Hey, I might actually be a functioning part of a system of white privilege".

Yesterday, I asked a white homeowner's association member about whether or not a playground would be built in a new, predominantly black condo subdivision. He complained that there is already a problem with kids congregating in some spot. From my viewpoint, it is normal for kids to socialize and play. I think he still views black people as the problem.

Anyway, race is usually a hot button.

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» RE: Don't be scared Posted by: Angie
Hawaiian
[Report this comment]
Posted by: NativeHawaiian on Aug 31, 2005 4:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think author, Bob Jensen did an excellent job of helping us realize that white folks are a major part of the problem. I like that.

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white-black
[Report this comment]
Posted by: johntindale on Aug 31, 2005 5:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a white commercial hvac mechanic working in the Washinton metropolitan area. I grew up in Prince Georges County where i was an official minority, and i have been carrying the so-called "white man's burden" for 34 years now. I somehow missed the white priveledge bus, so I find it difficult to understand my responsiblity for this problem of yours.

At any rate, I was recently doing service work at a property that is predominately black. The maintenance guy (a black man) and I diagnosed the problem in a resident's apartment, and the maintenance guy and I decide we needed a part.

The maintenance guy told the resident that we needed to get a part, and that we would be "white black" obviously a replacement for the phrase "right back."

No one got angry, no one protested, I didn't even get embarressed (as I often do when someone points out that I am the only while guy around) we just thought it was funny.

As always- it is the "liberal's burden" to lighten up. You don't like the way black people live in your part of America? Come to DC. Come to Prince George's County and see predom. black neighborhoods with security gates and golf courses. Come see the executive box suite at Nationals games full of high-powered, sucessful black leaders and politicians.

Come see me and my black neighbors sitting on the front porch of our suburban townhouses enjoying a laugh, having a beer, and generally getting along.

Come see when one of my Black friends starts to tell me about some "white lady" that cut them off on the highway, before they sometimes awkwardly realize that I am white.

I almost forgot that racism was a problem at one time in America. Thanks for reminding me and ruining my morning.

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» white priveledge bus Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: white-black Posted by: nakis
» RE: white-black Posted by: johntindale
» RE: white-black Posted by: KikiClaire
It's intuitive
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Urstrly on Aug 31, 2005 5:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Suggest you read "Blink," by Malcolm Gladwell in which he shows how deep our cultural preference for white people runs. Gladwell is biracial, and he agrees he has this bias himself. He even gives an online address where you can (or at least could) take a test that confirms this bias. We can't fight it if we don't acknowledge it.

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» RE: It's intuitive Posted by: Freepolazzo
» RE: It's intuitive Posted by: mwildfire
I disagree. I think.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bgroat on Aug 31, 2005 5:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think most of us, whatever our race, see people of the same race as the generic term "man" or "woman" and then clarify races different than ours with the added adjective. It doesn't mean that we assign a different human rank or status to different races - it's just that we tend to see ourselves as the generic brand, and anyone different as requiring further qualification. The only problem, of course, is when we DO begin assigning value judgments to those differences.

I appreciate the author's willingness to consider himself part of the problem, but this is one of the gripes against "liberals" (and I certainly am one) that I can sometimes agree with - we sometimes equate self-blame with objectivity, when in fact we may simply be launching a preemptive attack of self-incrimination, maybe because we like the feel of martyrdom. All this by way of saying that no race is the problem - ignorance and fear is and will always be the problem in these areas, and those things know no color lines.

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» RE: I disagree. I think. Posted by: Iana_gheddis
» martyrdom Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: martyrdom Posted by: bgroat
» Pragmatic Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Pragmatic Posted by: bgroat
» our reason Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: I disagree. I think. Posted by: kittynboi
Something to think about
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Erin on Aug 31, 2005 5:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the author has done a good job here and this ariticle should at least get people thinking. I have been saying for years that racism, racial profiling, etc. are not dead in America yet. I hear the very types of conversations almost daily, where people recounting a situtaion always refer to the race of someone. Why does that happen? Exactly for the reasons the author states. I happen to be white, but I refer to people as that guy or that woman, not that Mexican guy or that Black woman. Why on earth do we have to designate color or race? Why does it matter?

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Since when is there even such a thing as "white"?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Jasonix on Aug 31, 2005 5:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why does this author think that everyone who shares a certain skin color is the same? My family is from old New England stock - we came to this country seeking religious and political freedom and fought an authoritarian, theocratic state to attain it. My wife is Portuguese - her family came here to get good jobs and money, and they still seem a bit too comfortable with Catholic state religion (they arguably consider earlier Protestant Americans with their hopes of religious freedom to be fundamentally mistaken and hold to a more collectivistic, even fascist world view). These attitudes still mark decisive differences in world view despite the several generations that have passed. There is no "white." There is English, Polish, German, Irish, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, etc. - and in America, they meld. There are more people dating and marrying people of other so-called "races" than ever before, so the goal is for Americans to meld together and "race" to disappear as a meaningful concept. Identity-politic rants like this article do nothing but reinforce artifical distinctions between people, and encourage "people of color" to value these false, pernicious notions of "identity" based on skin color and ancestral history rather than seeing their common humanity with others.

Now let's get back to talking about health care, the war, the environment, and stuff that really matters!

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» Peace out? Posted by: Gatsby
White People are Not the Problem
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Jimbarnett on Aug 31, 2005 5:50 AM   
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Sophistry is alluring by definition. That does mean that the Jensen's argument is true. His argument is actually false becasue of the false premise(s) upon which it is built. Simply put white people are not the problem. An inarticulate man would on the other hand lacking the appropriate tools of language would fall back on Fuck You Idiot. Get a life and become productive. You are part of the problem and you are no part of the solution. On the other hand I say Have a nice day. p.s whate are you a Bush/Rove closet queen?

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Here's what we do...
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Posted by: Iana_gheddis on Aug 31, 2005 5:52 AM   
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how about we teach white people to hate themselves, then we reinforce it by making us write articles about how bad we are. Meanwhile, we encourage "other than whites" to qualify their place in America with terms like, African-American, or Hispanic-American, and make white people call them that. That way, no one is simply an American.
Then, we make minorities into political footballs and come up with new ways to play them every election cycle. There is nothing more fun than watching two white guys running for the same office come up with better ways to accuse each other of not being sensitive enough about minorities. someone somewhere wants everyone to be miserable.
A brilliant idea brought to us by none other than white people who really care. (How come the only time I see people as racial beings is when there is a liberal around pointing it out???).

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» RE: Here's what we do... Posted by: demidesigrrl
» RE: Here's what we do... Posted by: Jersey Devil
» RE: Here's what we do... Posted by: Sanyk
The next generations
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Posted by: DIXBARN on Aug 31, 2005 5:54 AM   
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I read an analysis of the way major scientific theories gain acceptance - the big changes need a change of generation. In other words, the old school proponents die, and the new school scientists then come to power and influence and the theories become mainstream instead of upstart.

I believe changes in social norms change the same way. I grew up in a racist society, believe that I have kicked those learned prejudices, but still notice skin color. Will that change?

My niece (white) kept speaking of a new friend, Nancy. Her mother asked several times, "Have I met her? What does she look like? . . . " My niece's description was about height, cuteness, ... everything except skin color. Turns out Nancy is black. I am astonished but heartened that skin color is such a non-issue for her.

Our discussions of these issues are good for US - we need to continue to educate ourselves about what prejudice we have not yet dislodged in ourselves. I think, though, if we can keep from training our kids to believe as we have, their view of the world will be more fair, less racist. While I wish all these changes could be instantaneous, some will need the time of changes of generation(s).

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» RE: The next generations Posted by: pinklotus432
Article Misses Larger Issue
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Posted by: L. J. Allen on Aug 31, 2005 6:13 AM   
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Let me state for full disclosure. I am the following: Black, female, over 40, under 50, middle class with middle class background, born and raised in the southern US, have graduate degree among an extended family where over 60 percent of adults have graduate degrees, homeowner without a mortgage. Whew!!

There are folks who want discussions about racial issues and racism to go away. Then there are those folks who want the discussions to deepen. BOTH GROUPS GET IT WRONG. The problem with Jensen's article is not his lack of sincerity or his accurate observations. The problem is the assumption that if people of basic European ancestry --who are now called "White" or "Caucasian"--would pay attention to their language and the way they perceive people(s) of color, that the world would be a much better place. Blacks, Indians, Chinese, Mexicans, etc. would feel so much better.

Nothing could be further from the truth. "Equal" does not mean "identical." And "unity" should never mean "uniformity." While it is perfectly heinous to treat someone of another race or ethnicity as subhuman, it is perfectly natural to identify people who are perceptibly different from yourself.

Peoples of color, particularly those persons who are economically disadvantaged, really don't care if someone notices "what" they are. What they worry most about is whether that perception will be followed by actions that hurt their chances of success. Mr. Jensen makes some valid points about white privilege and some piquant observations about language. Yet a large majority of people of color really do not care about this kind of analysis because it is not what anyone calls us, but what we answer to that matters.
Peace,

L. J. Allen

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» full disclosure Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Article Misses Larger Issue Posted by: kittynboi
Sorry, Iana_gheddis, but white folks already hate themselves
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Posted by: sausage on Aug 31, 2005 6:19 AM   
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Sorry, Iana_gheddis, and all you others whether you consider yourself "liberal" or "conservative", but whites folks already hate themselves.

Tim Wise writes in his book, "White Like Me: Reflections on Race From a Privileged Son", that, following his lectures on racism and white privilege, he asks individuals in the audience to describe what they like best about their race. About what make them proud or feel lucky to be white, black or Latino.

He writes-- I'm doing this from memory as I returned the book to my local library last week, so bear with me--that African Americans and Hispanics invariably come up with lists that include skin color, musical haritage, food etc. Whites, he continues, mostly have negative responses such as, "don't get suspicious looks in the grocery store," and so forth. In other words white Americans don't have much to be proud of just because of their skin color. White Americans, ever those among us who consider themselves color-blind or anti-racist, have all benefited from "white privilege."

Like I said above I'm doing this from memory so I suggest all of you who are posting here on Alternet.org read the book.

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» funny guy sausage is Posted by: Olympiada
Bigot or racist? It's all the same old .....
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Posted by: lc on Aug 31, 2005 6:30 AM   
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I’m 60 now. My father was not so much a racist as a typical person who finds it easier to blame someone else than to accept reality and rise above it all. I used to think he was a racist until he retired from Ohio and moved to Lake Havasu City, Arizona. In one of our first phone conversations he surprised me when he went off on the Indians across the river from Lake Havasu City. The Indians owned everything. They had all that land across the river and all the poor white retirees only had the little bit of land on their side of the river seemed to be the rant. I was surprised because he had never even mentioned Indians before when he used to go off on Black, Brown and Yellow people. Now Red was added to his bigot list. His racism was more bigotry than race. You can see it everywhere today as hippies, liberals, etc are dredged up for constant ridicule, derogatory remarks and blame.

I have yet to meet a conservative who has ever done anything wrong. Everything is blamed on someone or something else. Conservatives have basically blamed the downfall of civilization on liberals. Conservatives are mostly white people like my father who worked hard and didn’t spend enough time finding out what was really going on choosing instead to slip into simple racial epitaphs in support of their blame game.

Sincerely,
Ron Linker

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Race does matter!
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Posted by: Freepolazzo on Aug 31, 2005 6:32 AM   
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Health care, war, work, educations and many other issues are decided using race. That's why race matters.

Everything from garbage pickup, where the hospitals are located, deparement stores, office buildings, and even schools have race involved in them.

Unless we learn to become aware of our own part in supporting racism, it will be nigh impossible to "fix" the mess inequities that come from our uncouscous doing what we learned growing up in a very racist world.

Yes, it hurts to change. But what choice do we have if we want to bring Justice and then Peace into our ives and our communities?

Free Polazzo
Douglasville, GA

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» Right on! Very sensible synthesis Posted by: lefty_eastbay
keep playing that identity politics. You are the elites' best friend
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Posted by: cry0fan on Aug 31, 2005 6:45 AM   
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Are you working for elite? Do you want to help them divide the working class against each other? The elites' best strategy to divide and rule is to use identity politics? That way they keep us attacking each other and not them, and focusing on social politics, identity politics, not economic issues, like taxing the rich.

Doesn't Alternet get funding from the Schumann Foundation, one the fauxLeft foundations that have molded the American agenda to fit the needs of the superrich and the megacorporations?
Do they pay you to talk about identity politcs a lot, and thus not leave much room for talking about raising taxes on the rich?
Search google for more on this....

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White America is the problem
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Posted by: Jean Jearman on Aug 31, 2005 6:44 AM   
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I grew up in the South and was taught racism as it did not come naturally. When I joined the military and then married a military career man, I brought my children up in a military environment and was very careful not to teach racism, especially as I became a Christian. Much later, after my children went to work in civilian life and worked with black people, they began to change their attitude towards black people and started to dislike them intensly. It was their behavior that caused that. I eventually moved to the capital city of our state and began to work for the state. Although there are many very friendly, nice black people, I sure began to feel what it was like to be hated because of my race. Every store I visited, the black women were so rude to me just for being white, sometimes I had to report them to the manager. At work, if one black lady becomes angry with me, all of them do, well almost all of them. It is not a COLOR divider in this country. It is a CULTURAL divider. I intensly dislike the behavior of so many of the black people in my city, I can not begin to tell you the many irritating characteristics they exibit that make me cringe and I can tell you the racism they have for the white people in this city is much more noticable than the reverse. It is behavior and culture, in my mind, that causes the racial problems in our country between white and black. You can forget a cure.

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» AGREE 10000% lefty_eastbay Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: AGREE 10000% lefty_eastbay Posted by: abhurley
» Racists come in all colors Posted by: searay7971
» RE: AGREE 10000% lefty_eastbay Posted by: KikiClaire
Whiny oppressed white men, relax! You are NOT the problem.
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Posted by: cellis56 on Aug 31, 2005 6:49 AM   
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Until racism is a thing of the past, not just in the perception of some who live in racially integrated or in racially segregated areas where it doesn't "seem" (to them) to matter, but for everyone, NOT noticing racial differences merely supports our racist infrastructure.

Darker skinned groups cluster statistically at the bottom of US economic indices. It matters not whether individuals are nice to people of a different color. Ghetto housing, slashed school budgets, and racism among public officials, as well as other factors, enforce conditions that perpetuate the inability of significant numbers of African Americans and others with dark skin to escape their economic conditions. Niceness won't change a thing.

Jonathan Kozol recently recounted an incident involving his dinner at the lavish home of a good (white) friend. This family was paying $60,000 annually to maintain their two children in competitive private schools. Yet when Kozol began to talk about the budgetary crisis in urban schools across the US, his kind hearted, basically decent friend smiled skepticallly and asked, "Do you really think throwing money at the problem will make it go away?"

Until people see the irony in this and reject its twisted (and racist) logic, individuals may chat up their black or white friends but nothing of substance will alter. It isn't about you and how you feel or even how you act. It's about an infrastructure that extends and perpetuates discrepancies bettween children in $30K a year schools and schools that don't have adequate toilets, books, classrooms, OR teachers.

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» Jonathan Kozol Posted by: Olympiada
The comments prove Jensen's point
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Posted by: mjb1886 on Aug 31, 2005 7:03 AM   
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While much of the ideas expressed in the article are not new, for instance they echo many issues presented in Color-blind: seeing beyond race in a race-obsessed world by Ellis Cose, the most interesing part of this posting has been the responses to the article. The defensiveness of the responders is testimony that Jensen is certrainly onto something. For my part, when I read the example about the (white) man standing with the "three Mexicans" I was taken back to an occasion when I was talking to a (black) colleague and commented on how the black kids I had met were just like the normal kids. As I said it I tried to pull the words back, but they hung there proclaiming that even well meaning people can be infected with race identity problems. Get over the defensiveness and look to how we behave.

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» Very Well Said Posted by: Michiganman
Sorry sausage, but that's not the point
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Posted by: Iana_gheddis on Aug 31, 2005 7:05 AM   
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The point is, I shouldn't have to read a fricking book to figure out why or if I feel inappropriately toward some race. Is being a basic, good American so difficult that I have to go study it? I won't read the book. I will continue to watch people like you try to engineer relations instead of contributing something useful to the economy.
I am a naturalized citizen and find America laughable sometimes, and all this brainstorming is why. I appreciated this place more when it was idea to me instead of my residence. Have you considered that were it not for numerous policies, suh as FDR’s New Deal farm policy that gave farms to whites and welfare to blacks, blacks and whites probably wouldn’t have these problems? All this mumble jumble over racial protocol didn’t start until the 1950s. And yet, liberals guard FDR’s policies with their lives. Social Security? You are against private accounts and yet private accounts are the single greatest chance economically disadvantaged minorities have to pass on any viable form of wealth. You’re against THAT, but by god, I’d better address a black person as an African American. How many cups of coffee does that buy?
You actions are inconsistent with your rhetoric. We want everything to be equal, but you cheer on black college students when they boo and hiss at successful black speakers like Clarence Thomas at their commencements. Booing at anyone giving a speech is uncivil enough that their poverty is deserved; booing at a great example of what they could be with some work and commitment is stupid enough to guarantee poverty for them, their kids and their kids kids. And I, being lily white, am the problem? (Just where is Anita Hill these days?)
I think the problem is that we are so politically correct that we either don’t see the REAL problem, or we no longer have the balls to spell out the obvious.
Either way, another book won’t help. Some intellectual honesty might.

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» No... YOU are changing the topic. Posted by: lefty_eastbay
» No deal. Posted by: sausage
» you're smart! Posted by: Olympiada
» The Real Problem is ... ???? Posted by: aswgt@ix.netcom.com
African American and European American
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Posted by: Joecheck on Aug 31, 2005 7:18 AM   
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Good discussion! Our group today demonstrates how confused we are about race in the USA. It was always so and continues. Perhaps we have made a little progress, but this is a chronic and deathdealing problem. Institutional racism pops up in new ways. This is the problem.

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Good old white boys rule supreme
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Posted by: lc on Aug 31, 2005 7:22 AM   
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Scroll down to the eighth paragraph for an example of the white boy network that still runs everything. For the story go to: http://www.latimes.com/LA Times Aug. 30, 2005

Congressional Democrats demanded an investigation Monday into the demotion of a senior U.S. military contracting official who publicly criticized a controversial no-bid contract awarded to Halliburton Corp. for work in Iraq.

With more than 20 years' experience in government procurement, Bunnatine Greenhouse had been the Army Corps of Engineers' top contracting officer until she was demoted Saturday to a lower-level position. A military report indicated that she was demoted for poor job performance.

Greenhouse had repeatedly challenged the corps' commanding officers on their decision in 2003 to give a contract worth up to $7 billion to repair oil infrastructure to Halliburton, the Houston-based oil services company once run by Vice President Dick Cheney.

"They went after her to destroy her," said Michael Kohn, her attorney, who added that the demotion was "absolutely" in retaliation for her complaints about the Halliburton contract.

Democrats, who had invited Greenhouse to testify about her concerns at a June hearing, asked Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld in a letter Monday to investigate and to reinstate her in the meantime.

At that June hearing, Greenhouse called the Halliburton case "the most blatant and improper contract abuse I have witnessed during the course of my professional career." Three weeks later, the secretary of the Army approved the Corps of Engineers' decision to demote her. It took effect over the weekend.

The Army general who hired Greenhouse, who is black, said her race and sex also played a role in her demotion. Known for her insistence on following rules, she clashed repeatedly with a mostly white "old boy" network at the Corps of Engineers, according to Lt. Gen. Joe Ballard.

"Greenhouse's race and gender ruffled a lot of feathers in the Corps command and also contributed to the disparate and highly critical treatment she has received," Ballard wrote as part of a deposition given during an internal process to appeal her demotion. Ballard, who is also black, said he had received "similar treatment" even as a commander.

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» RE: Good old white boys rule supreme Posted by: thinkingisfun
i think its a case of human nature
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Posted by: sbc_prod on Aug 31, 2005 7:28 AM   
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my question is this...if a mexican had been telling the story would it have been "3 guys and some gabacho"....

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if I had a dollar...
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Posted by: mihan on Aug 31, 2005 7:40 AM   
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If I had a dollar for every time a white person in the U.S. asked me what country I was from or where I was from "originally," I could retire right now. If I had an additional dollar for every time someone (white or not) in another country insisted that I "couldn't" be American or that I don't "look" American, I could have retired a decade ago.

The simple fact is that both white Americans and foreigners of all colors assume that Americans are white by default. Yes, many of them then acknowledge that not all Americans are white. But, just like I don't think I should have to explain that I'm queer (since straight is the default), I don't think I should have to correct the "white" default to claim my identity as an American which is automatically granted to white Americans.

I thought this article was spot on.

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all in this together
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Posted by: billyboy43 on Aug 31, 2005 7:44 AM   
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There was a study of genetics performed during the Clinton administration that concluded that all of existing human beings today genetically descended from one man and four women.
So we all are truly brothers and sisters, a few levels removed.
But the REAL answer is:
Love your neighbor as yourselves!
'And who is my neighbor ?', the religious leaders of the day sneered.
Then the man layed down the parable which came to be called The Good Samaritan (though he didn't use that term).
A Samaritan was a person of low-esteem in that time.
Also interesting to note is the man was being pushed by the religious elites on his opinion of The Ten Commandments (after he had delivered the woman caught in the very act of adultery from a stoning under the law of moses), when this transpired. The man had asked them what was the first commandmant to which they replied that thou shalt love the lord thy god with all thy strength, all thy soul, and all thy mind.
The man then said the entire weight of the law rest on this ONE commandment, and to that I would only add:
'Love thy neighbor as thyself.'

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» RE: all in this together Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
I Won the Office Poll! Thanks lc!!
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Posted by: Iana_gheddis on Aug 31, 2005 7:51 AM   
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I wondered how long it would take for someone to haul Halliburton in to beat to a pulp. I had selected a slot in our office poll at random thinking that I could better use the money by donating it to the KKK. Then waalaa! Lc comes through at 7:22 pacific time with a comment that starts out mumbling something about Congressional Democrats demanding some investigation again. Thanks lc for spotting the connection between race and Halliburton. The world owes you big time.
And to think, as lc’s comment was posted, I was responding to a fan named lefty_something who thought I was getting off track in a comment I had made to Sausage about a comment he made to my comment about this farce of a story about bad white people.
Thanks lc, maybe I’ll donate it to your favourite charity.

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Complete Denial
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Posted by: damaliayo on Aug 31, 2005 8:02 AM   
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I was so pleased to read this article- finally a white person stepping up to the plate and acknowleging that racism is a white issue. I have always maintained that white people are a very smart and capable group and if they put their minds to it, they could erradicate the problem of racism that has been instituted in this society for far too long. After all, as the author clearly states, it was white people who institutionalized racism in this country. Thus, only white people can really be the ones to dismantle it. I was so glad to see that someone had written a book that might start this process of white responsibility and action.

Sadly when reading the comments following the article, my hopes were again dashed. White people seem no closer to ending their denial of responsiblity for racism than they did hundreds of years ago.

It was even more disappointing to read comments from self proclaimed "liberals" or "lefties" who reduced the author's astute and honest observations as "PC" or felt attacked by the clarity and directness with which he owned up on behalf of white people for the problem of racism. This shows that even liberal whites are addicted to their benefits of racial preference.

Do we really think we are "beyond racism" or that it is a thing of the past? Anyone who states this must be in complete denial, blinded by privilege or painfully disconnected from reality and the lives of people of color. Instead of becoming defensive, I hope that white people can take an honest look at the world around them and see the truth that Jensen had the presence to document and publish.

Thank you to Robert Jensen. I truly hope that white people find a way to come together and do the work of dismantling racism so we can all live out the potential of this country.

damali ayo

Author of How to Rent a Negro, 2005 Lawrence Hill Boooks - a satirical look at race relations written with the hope of increasing dialoge and offering our world a mirror of ourdaily actions with regards to racial difference.

please feel free to visit my web site: damaliayo.com

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» RE: Complete Denial Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
stepping up to the plate???
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Posted by: Iana_gheddis on Aug 31, 2005 8:05 AM   
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Who are you people? Where is your pride? I'm sick of the whole thing.

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Interesting observing this conversation
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Posted by: pdxlinuxchix on Aug 31, 2005 8:12 AM   
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I have reached a point where I'm simply weary of racial discussions in this nation. I grew up right 'When It Changed' (and for those of you who don't remember the change and think it's all ancient history, the difference between knowing segregated schooling--for instance--and not is your birthday being in 1962 or 1966. Just so you know.) I think that this is about as good as it can possibly be in this country and, quite honestly, I see no purpose in the author's book. Everyone who *can* hear what the man has to say is halfway there already and so he's preaching to the choir. It may make the author and the people who will read the book feel better but ultimately, they're preaching to the choir.

Now, lest you think I'm 'whining' or 'not letting go of the past' read the rest of this post *before* you make your judgments.

I think that, quite honestly, the black community should turn inward and largely--with the possible exception of racial profiling--let the matter drop. Most of what ails the black community at this point is legacy issues but there's nothing that whites can do about those. No white person makes black kids believe that being educated is 'trying to act white'. No white person tells black kids that speaking in 'Ebonics' is acceptable because 'it's their culture'. It's *not* 'our culture'. Our culture is Shakespear and Virginia Woolf and Alice Walker and Maya Angelou and Lorraine Hansberry just like every *other* American.

The only thing that I wish America would change is to truly attempt to become a meritocracy. Race, gender, religion, sexual orientation what-have-you should count for nothing . What should and must count is competence and intelligence and nothing more. All the rest of it--what to call blacks (I rarely use African-American), whether or not white people born *after* 1950 benefit from the racial situation in America *before* 1950 (they do) and a whole panopoly of other issues are simply wasted breath discussing them because they aren't changing. One poster said he missed the 'white privilege bus'. If he would listen I would tell him, "no, you didn't".

Here is the difference: No white person will be asked to explain the mindset of *other* white people. Your competence is not questioned upon meeting you.

Cheers
Aj

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Look in the mirror
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Posted by: Elfwyn on Aug 31, 2005 8:22 AM   
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The author leaps to the assumption that the two men in front of him are saying an awful lot of things that they simply don't. I think that the author should remove the log in his own eye before sniping about the splinter in the eyes of others, real or imaginary.

In any society, is not unusual to refer to people of one's own country, race, religion, or area as "us" and people outside of those definitions as "them." Two people standing here are "us," and the two over there are "them." This is so basic that no explanation is really needed.

Does this author stand behind groups of blacks, or Hispanics, or Indians (I am one, so skip the Amerind b.s.) and whine if they refer to "us" and "white guys?" I doubt it.

Perhaps, too, we should sit back and ponder whether some people with a perpetual chip on their shoulders, always looking for slights where none are intended, are part of the problem. With that going on, nothing anyone says or does can possibly be right, be real, or be simply accepted as well-intentioned, and everyone stays angry and/or offended.

Take your trouble spoon, sir, hold it up, and look at your reflection in it. There you will see one part of the problem.

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» RE: Look in the mirror Posted by: bgroat
» RE: Look in the mirror Posted by: bgroat
» preemptive racism Posted by: Olympiada
» That is called separtism Posted by: Olympiada
Disagree with your position
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Olympiada on Aug 31, 2005 8:34 AM   
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Ok Mr. Jensen, I disagree with your position. I tried to cast off my 'white privilege' and to what avail? None. Ruining my own life.
Did you know that some times people of color can have a 'victim mentality'? Does this help them? No.
I think it is better if we deal with people as people, listen to them, and help them where they are at, regardless of skin color. We have to look past skin color and listen to the words people are saying. You are a journalist, you should know this. I think what really counts is face to fact time, conversation. That is how understanding is built. I would encourage you not to encourage the victim mentality, which is what your article will do.
We all have our burdens to bear.
Now I may get flamed.
Oh well.

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» RE: Disagree with your position Posted by: kittynboi
» victim mentality Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: victim mentality Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: victim mentality Posted by: Olympiada
You're in White People Denial, "Leftie"
[Report this comment]
Posted by: serioustrouble on Aug 31, 2005 8:37 AM   
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Your Chinese wife does not make you the vanguard of racial understanding. You obviously fail to understand the author's points about White privelege, and in so affirm his very point: you are the problem. White folks don't have to concern themselves with learning and undoing racism because they (wrongly) believe it doesn't affect them.

Maybe you could pick up Souls of Black Folks, or Race Matters, or any of the hundreds of books about American racism - open your mind to perspectives of color and you just might learn something.

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So now what do we DO about this?
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Posted by: CrystalD on Aug 31, 2005 8:39 AM   
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This is a thought-provoking article. I'm looking forward to reading the whole book when it comes out (assuming I can get hold of it - hardback books are not in my budget these days!).

I am a liberal, but by no means one of those crunchy Berkeley leftie types. And I agree that white privilege is pervasive throughout America today. I am glad Jensen acknowledged that we have come a long way since the days of Jim Crow and Native American boarding schools, because there are liberals who do not like to acknowledge that we have made any progress whatsoever. So we have come a long way but still have a long way to go. Just look at some of the comments on this board - white people are getting all defensive that we whites BENEFIT from PRIVILEGE. And we don't notice because white is the default, white is assumed as the "norm." White privilege is to us as water is to a fish, we swim in it.

Now the $64,000 question is - Where do we go from here? And what do we DO about white privilege? How do we go about change in a way that will not trigger a destructive backlash? Wallowing in "I'm sooooo eeeevil, waaah" martyrdom is not going to do any good in the real world. "Boycotting" Gwen Stefani albums or Indian-print skirts because of "cultural appropriation" is just plain silly, and won't make any difference anyway. So what effective actions can white people take that will make a difference? And how can one, or a few, motivated people do so? I can't say because I have not read the book, but I hope Jensen gives his readers some tools as to what to DO to set America on the road to real equality.

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» Very Succinct Posted by: decembrist
» RE: What to do about this Posted by: searay7971
» RE: What to do about this Posted by: kittynboi
The old "Some of my Best Friends are Black!" line
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Posted by: serioustrouble on Aug 31, 2005 8:44 AM   
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Way to dig below the surface.

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Perspective
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Posted by: bgroat on Aug 31, 2005 8:45 AM   
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I certainly understand and sympathize with the ideas in the article, but it is simply inaccurate and unhelpful to talk about groups like races or ethnicities as having this or that perspective. "Whites" don't think one thing while "Blacks" think another. There are tons of white racists, just as there are tons of black racists, and tons of Hispanic racists. ignorance and bigotry is not tied in with race; ignorance is what it is, and will show itself in many ways - bigotry being one of the most socially desctructive. But it is not the exclusive fault of any racial "group". Racists are defined by an ideology, not a skin color.

Again, I understand the author's perspective and greatly admire the sentiment behind the article. It just seems to be counterproductive to continue creating such overarching categories and ascribing opinions to them; the defensiveness this engenders on all sides of the issue will ultimately inhibit any helpful discussion, I think.

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» "Whites" Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: "Whites" Posted by: bgroat
» Symbols Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: "Whites" Posted by: johng
» Other Africans Posted by: Olympiada
» Ammending my own comment Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Perspective Posted by: decembrist
» RE: Perspective Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Perspective Posted by: decembrist
» RE: Perspective Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Perspective Posted by: decembrist
» RE: Perspective Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Perspective Posted by: decembrist
good analysis but wrong solution
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Posted by: yuval taylor on Aug 31, 2005 8:52 AM   
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i think there's a lot of truth to what jensen says, but his "solution" doesn't strike me as right. he writes,

We should not affirm ourselves. We should negate our whiteness. Strip ourselves of the illusion that we are special because we are white.

first of all, who is this "we"? he's assuming that no black people are reading the article. he's making the same mistake as bush made. and how the hell can white people like jensen and myself "negate our whiteness" when it's the source of our privilege? it's not an "illusion" that whites are privileged because they are white. it's a reality.

- yuval

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Sure
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Posted by: wlgordon on Aug 31, 2005 8:59 AM   
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Now I know why I spend time on www.townhall.com and www.frontpagemag.com.

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Jensen is a Racist
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Posted by: fairleft on Aug 31, 2005 9:25 AM   
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It's obvious from the negative assumptions he leaps to upon hearing "this guy and three Mexicans." Was the talker proclaiming white as the default setting for American by saying "guy"? Maybe, maybe not, but a non-racist would withhold judgment. When the talker said "Mexicans" was he assuming those three men were not US citizens, or that it didn't matter whether they were, they're Mexicans not Americans to him? Maybe, maybe not, but a non-racist would withhold judgment.

It's simple, Professor Jensen: to cure your racism, start by withholding judgment of white people's objectively inoffensive words that only become offensive in the land of political correctness...

As somebody else said, this "divided they rule" political correctness nightmare has killed and will continue killing the left, leaving all us in the middle and bottom screwed. So not only is Jensen a racist, but he is also not a leftist.

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mike
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Posted by: zoro123 on Aug 31, 2005 9:36 AM   
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I'm one of those "white guy lefties" who has read these stories written by mostly lefties, so I rarely have a FUSE BLOWN, and therefore must make a small comment that may teach the teacher something about racism. I am also a "whitey" who has dedicated his life to the underprivileged and the diaabled. My carreer has brought me face to face with mostly non-white people of whom I love. Some of them are white, so I write here for them too. Let me take a quote to try to EDUCATE the educator with a quote from another poster on this page " But blaming ALL whites for SOME whites being stupid is... stupid. " I will take that further and say that the author is an obvious racist with such disrespect towards groups of people... It's inconceivable to me why you are included in this a forum for The People... That means me and you. I do not know your color, but it doesn't matter. You are expressing racism, and I hope I never come to this site, and have to be exposed to racism towards me or any other living thing.

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An Issue That Could Potentially Bring Us Together
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Posted by: Sandra on Aug 31, 2005 9:40 AM   
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Racism is an important issue in this country. There is another issue that also impacts all of us and encompasses racism. We are currently engaged in a class war in this country. The top 1% financially versus the rest of us. There is a declining middle class, jobs and opportunities are being outsourced to other countries and jobs replacing the lost jobs are more service oriented and pay lower wages. Our government is bought and paid for. I think that this class war is the one issue that will unite most of us, regardless of color, sexual orientation, religion, etc. to take back our country from the control of the ruling class.

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part vs whole
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Posted by: sls1982 on Aug 31, 2005 9:47 AM   
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I think the author has made a point and has forced white america to realize their PART of the problem...ALthough many white attitudes and misconceptions contribute and create racial problems, (i defintely recognize that) I think its too easy to simply say "the whites did it ALL"....it seems way to easy to simply blame one ethnic group. I think there are many historical sociological and psychological factors on all sides we need to work from there--making continual accusations just continues to alienate people by their "race" and cause even more animosity and problems. I suggest in the future instead of making blanket accusations you try to offer substantial solutions otherwise your entire point just seems like a poor effort to get noticed.

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Simply Amazing
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Posted by: nakis on Aug 31, 2005 10:34 AM   
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A lot of good posts. Not that I agree with all of them but everyone is speaking from their position and belief. Obvious yes. Enlightening yes.

Many people went off on the author calling him a racist. Some claim him to be part of the problem or propagating the problem. Or that white people aren't to blame. Or that you don't see any racism.
You've really missed the point of the article. The article spoke of the inherint racism. Of how many whites inherintly view America as white. His examples were only to state that the wording of people he has run into or read from state that they assume American to be the land of white people.
That in of itself is racist. And by saying so the author doesn't propogate racism. It's there whether he states it or not. And by not recognizing it or ignoring it, it's not going to go away. In fact, it may never go away.
Some posters say that viva la difference. And that is true. People are different and that makes the world a more wonderful place (provided those differences are not about harming others). But then that's not what the author talks about either. He wasn't saying we need to be all the same.
He just wanted to engage the reader that whether we like it or not. Whether we agree or not. Whether want to like it or agree with it or not. It's there.
It's not a poor thing. It's not a rich thing. It's a human failing thing. It's a thing we need to look at in ourselves and see if we can change it. If you don't do it, fine. You're ahead of the curve. If you do and your think it's fine, well try to recognize that it does promote discord and tension. No matter how many flowers you put on it.

As a white man, I've benefited from white privelidge, male privelidge and suffered from non-white racism against whites and sexism against males.
Ignoring it won't make it better. Blaming others won't make it better. Self flagilation won't make it any better.

What will? Self awareness. Courage to change your attitudes and beliefs if you are willing and need to (not all need to) and the courage to speak positively when faced with racism (and is healthy to do so).

Ok. Slam away. Sorry, but I expect some posters to misread my post and slam me and some to accurately read this and slam me anyway. :)

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» Or maybe I'm off base :) Posted by: nakis
» RE: Or maybe I'm off base :) Posted by: Olympiada
» Self flagilation Posted by: Olympiada
» AGREE 10000% w/nakis Posted by: Michiganman
Race does not actually exist, but racism does.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: forestfemme on Aug 31, 2005 11:11 AM   
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There is no "white" race. The very conceptualization of "whiteness" was born of pseudo-scientific, intentionally duplicitous motives so as to elevate an imagined "Caucasoid" race to the top of an imagined race totem pole.

The other "races" at the time were limited to two: Negroid and Mongoloid. The latter two, the "inferior" races were to have originated from Africa and Asia. The "white race?" "Whites" were to have originated, clearly and purely, from the Caucasus Mountains.

The whole thing was made up, as should be very clear to us now based on every shred of scientific and biological/DNA evidence available to us.

From three races, we went to four, and then to a dozen or so. Today's census gives us many dozens of possibilities and, for the first time, the ability to be "mixed race," something that amounts to a nod in the direction of the mixed people who have always populated this nation state, but which further confuses the issue, in many ways.

There are such a things as ethnicity, a language tree, culture, or a place of origin. But not races of human beings.

This fact doesn't stop people from using the terms, and it certainly doesn't stop people from hating and prejudging one another based on the hue of their skin and their facial features. Racism and all forms of bigotry are alive and well, and Euro-Americans do, indeed, enjoy a tremendous privilege-by-default in the U.S. That privilege must be examined, deconstructed, and pulled apart in every way conceivable in order for us to move to the next level of social evolution in a multicultural society. By 2050, Euro-Americans will, indeed, be in the minority.

Does that scare or anger you? If so, I suggest that you ask yourself why, and to do so as honestly as possible.

Reflexive, defensive positioning on this issue should be called for what it is: a way of avoiding a deeper personal and political examination, of avoiding discomfort. That doesn't get us anywhere, unfortunately.

Good starting places: go here for the DNA-based deconstruction of race. For more on the politics and privilege of whiteness, check out Tim Wise.

Silja J.A. Talvi

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Non whites get squat
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Posted by: Michiganman on Aug 31, 2005 11:12 AM   
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People of color have been crapped on in this country since it began. Any of the white folks here who don't feel some resposibility are living in a dream world. The author didn't infer BEING white is the problem he merely stated the problem lies within the MINDSET of most whites. Even those of us who consider ourselves to be non racists catch ourselves using racial divides becaused it's so ingrained in the system and history of this country. Saying "My black friend Joe" is completly racist but easily slips from the tongue. People quit being offended and try to get the point, jeez.

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» RE: Non whites get squat Posted by: bgroat
» Better safe than racist.... Posted by: Michiganman
» No, it is racist.... Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: No, it is racist.... Posted by: bgroat
» Yikes Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Yikes Posted by: bgroat
» RE: Yikes Posted by: bgroat
» LOL Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: LOL Posted by: bgroat
» Acknowledge/Describing Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Acknowledge/Describing Posted by: bgroat
» ROFL Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: OFL Posted by: bgroat
» YUP bgroat good Posted by: Michiganman
So Much of the Same
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Posted by: decembrist on Aug 31, 2005 11:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
*humhph* this article insults my heritage! My heritage that includes centuries of enslaving, lynching and oppression! I just wish I could remember that's my heritage... I always seem to forget!

this author's calling me a racist... no, he's the racist! yeah, that's right, the counter-racism attack always lets me get away without thinking!

I'm an AMERICAN first! I'm insulted that this author would forget that before enjoying my white privileges I'm an uber-nationalist first!

There's no such thing as white... doesn't this author know that we're all color blind now? How dare he, I'm more pink than I am white, and the sores on my ass are red, my nipples are more of a brown color, my eyes are blue, my hair is yellow, and I'm covered in dark freckles! What's he talking about, white?

I'm not privileged, I'm white, 45 and work at McDonald's! Just because 95% of the super wealthy are white, 95% of those with power in the government are white, and a black man or arab man will always be harassed by the police before me doesn't mean that whites are the privileged group!
------ ----------- -------- --------- --------- -------- ------ ---

Think about what it means to have privileges built in to the system. A system that automatically privileges whites over others, without whites even realizing it. Its time to realize it.

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» Sarcasm never hurt anybody Posted by: Michiganman
» A little sarcasm of my own Posted by: CrystalD
» RE: A little sarcasm of my own Posted by: decembrist
Equality, not Privilege
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Posted by: thepixelguru on Aug 31, 2005 11:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I want you to go out and find as many collage scholarships as you can for a white, male american, like myself. Go ahead, try it. What if I was a black female? What about a native american female? Oh, they should get scholarships because they're in a worse economic situation than me? Yeah, I'm a white middle class male, sure. I come from a line of poor Irish factory workers on my mom's side, and poor french-canadian farmers on my dad's. That puts me in about the same economic position as many minority groups, except I can't get money for being a white middle class male.

That might seem justifiable to some of you. As a whole, whites have gotten less screwed over than many minority groups. College kids like me are a dime a dozen. So that mean, what, that I should get screwed for college money because there are plenty of kids like me around anyway? I go to UMass Amherst, and we've got a ton of people preaching about diversity and equality. We have local chapter of a student group, ALANA, who threw a fit earlier this year because they were denied their previous seats in the student senate. Seems logical, until you realize that they were previously granted those seats for nothing other than being minority students. They didn't run for them, they didn't have to fight to get in like the white kids. Let's face it, ALANA didn't want equality, they wanted special privaledge. They cry racism because someone felt that minority students were actually capable of running for and achieving representation on their own. They make repeated mention of us as a racist campus, despite the fact that we're more diverse than the surrounding area.

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» PS - A Note to Robert Jenson Posted by: thepixelguru
» Aw poor whitey Posted by: Michiganman
» LOL Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: quality, not Privilege Posted by: kittykat
» RE: quality, not Privilege Posted by: KikiClaire
Defining terms
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Posted by: bgroat on Aug 31, 2005 11:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not an expert and I'm not a know-it-all, so please don't take this as coming from that perspective, but we're talking about racism here, and it seems to me that we have a lot of different ideas of what that actually means, and as such we're getting this kind of Salem Witch Hunt thing where we keep calling each other racists and being counterproductive.

Racism is, and please tell me if I'm wrong, the belief that one race is superior or inferior to another, and is largely based on presumed shared characteristics of members of that group. In other words, if I say one race is inferior or "all like this" or "all like that," I'm being racist.

If I say that, "through the historical segregation of the races, blacks developed a culture of their own," or that "I have a Filipino friend," I'm not being racist. I'm discussing something while acknowledging that other races exist but with no value-judgment being used. I just wanted to throw this out there because we seem to be very quick to label someone a racist if he goes so far as to acknowledge race, and that seems counterproductive to me.

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» Walking a thin line Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Walking a thin line Posted by: bgroat
» getting so vitriolic? Posted by: Michiganman
» Absolutely cracking up here Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Absolutely cracking up here Posted by: Olympiada
All white people are racist and priveleged?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: zaksquatch on Aug 31, 2005 11:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How is this different that saying all black people love basketball and fried chicken? It's a blanket statement used to describe all people of a certain skin tone.

Grammatically speaking, it's just as racist of a statement and has the same effect to me.

Of course, being white has afforded me certain priveleges in life. I don't get abnormally harrased by cops. I don't get paid $5 a day to pick fruit. No one has accused me of being good at math because I am white.

However, I also grew up where I was a minority. I was targeted for racial attacks as a child by non-white children. My family, for the most part, emigrated to the US on the 20th century. So, to me, my heritage of racism and privelage comes to me as a American, NOT as a white American. If you claim to know one iota about me based on my skin tone, you are making a racist statement, regardless of what my skin tone happens to be.

The US has more privelage, as a country, than the rest of the world combined. The biggest issue we face is one of class, more than one of race. As long as the middle and lower classes squabble over who is more racist, the elite mostly white wealthy ruling class will continue to laugh all the way to the bank. They do not care who they oppress, black, white, yellow, beige or chartreuse. We are making it easy for them as we stand in the gutter pointing fingers at each other.

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» Boneheaded and priveleged Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Boneheaded and priveleged Posted by: zaksquatch
» Squabble Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Squabble Posted by: zaksquatch
» moving out of the country Posted by: Olympiada
Peggy McIntosh on white privilege
[Report this comment]
Posted by: CrystalD on Aug 31, 2005 12:27 PM   
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I can't believe no one has posted a link to Peggy McIntosh, "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" - a really eye-opening essay on how white privilege permeates every aspect of a white person's life. And it's the little things, too - like white people being able to surround themselves with other white people 24/7 if they so wish, to see themselves presented as the "norm" on television, etc.

I thought of one of McIntosh's points when I went grocery shopping earlier. I wore a baggy old T-shirt, sweat pants liberally speckled with cat hair, flip flops and my hair in a scrunchie. People might look at me and think "What a slob!" but not "What a WHITE slob! She's just like all white women, doesn't give a toss how she looks, and she's probably uneducated and has five kids on welfare into the bargain!" White people, in short, do not have to worry about "Be a credit to your race" or that something they do is going to reflect badly on all white people. Because white, you see, is the "norm." And white people, in a white-privileging society, have the luxury of being judged as INDIVIDUALS and not as "Them." My temporary grocery-store slobbiness might reflect badly on me, but not on all who look like me. That is white privilege.

An acquaintance of mine wants a divorce from her husband. They are an "interracial" couple. She still hesitates to seek a divorce because she is afraid of people going "See? Interracial marriages don't last! Stick with your own kind!" Now that is patently ridiculous because her marital problems have nothing to do with race or their "interracial" marriage, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if this was not an interracial marriage people wouldn't be rushing to judgment; instead, blame would be laid at the door of their individual problems.

One of the greatest privileges of whiteness is to not be under a microscope.

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» Interracial Divorce Posted by: Olympiada
» don't tell me what to do Posted by: Olympiada
This culture is imbued with racism.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: judiths1_az on Aug 31, 2005 12:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been trying, for several years, to have a more integrated life. It occurred to me a long time ago that I live in a white world. I've been trying to not live in a white world and it doesn't work. Black people, Native people, Latino people while very nice and wonderful to know, do NOT include me. My personal feeling, at this point, is that racism is inappropriate all the time and directed at any one. I'll keep trying. *smile*

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» Maybe Jensen will tell us how? Posted by: CrystalD
» RE: Maybe Jensen will tell us how? Posted by: judiths1_az
» RE: Living in a integrated world Posted by: searay7971
GeraldM
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Posted by: GeraldM on Aug 31, 2005 1:01 PM   
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Dear American Firster,
Try this: tell your on-the-job "American" friends, white or otherwise, that your great grandfather was an African-American freed slave. See whether they start treating you differently and, more importantly, whether you like the change. Before you make your announcement I suggest you read "KIngsblood Royal" by Upton Sinclair.

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No way, man!
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Posted by: ArnoldArnoldBobarnold on Aug 31, 2005 1:05 PM   
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The world has gone mad, man.

We are not the problem. We cause other races problems, but we are not the problem, man.

That's crazy talk, mister.

There are no "problem" races per se. It's religion. It's fundamentalism of any stripe, any form of mindless orthodoxy.

Be it: Jewish, Christianish, Islamish. Hinduish, Buddhaish, Shintoish.

Take Northern Ireland, for crying out loud--Sectarianish.

It's not about this or that race, man. It's those consarned religions, man.

They, THEY are the problem.

Race, my hindparts.

Clerics: They should just knock it off, and recognize that this whole deal, the earth, the universe, humans so-called, it's just a carbon-based fluke, man.

A fluke. No more. No less. No heaven. No hell. No Krishna. No 72 virgins in the sky alond w/ all that pie-in-the-sky.

Myths. Superstitions! They are the PROBLEMS, man!! Don't put that on us.

We may be egomaniacs, but hey! What's an id for if not to run amok.

The white race is the problem--Pshaw!!

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No practical solutions.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: kittynboi on Aug 31, 2005 1:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article says that whits should admit to themselves that they are the problem, but aside from advocating that people load themselves with guilt. it offers no advice beyond that.

What is a real way to solve these problems? What will actually change things? What will undo white privledge and level the playing field? And what will a level playing field look like? What is a specific vision for an equal society free of white privledge?

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» Are schools the key? And jobs? Posted by: CrystalD
Speak for Yourself, Mr. Jensen
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Posted by: mizpearl on Aug 31, 2005 1:33 PM   
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So, what do you suggest we white vermin do? Crawl on our knees in sackcloth and ashes, bemoaning our whiteness to anyone who will listen? Hang our heads in shame and wear dunce caps and signs on our backs saying, “I apologize for being alive and taking up your space and air, please forgive me for being born white”?

The problem, Mr. Jensen, is not the American whites – it is you and your dangerous, delusional ideas. You come across as someone who has had the ugly racist mindset you talk about in your article and have recently become aware of it, and you now want to make up for it by burning us all at the same stake.

The problem is not a skin color – it’s a foul-smelling attitude that is there in ALL groups of people.

There are actually some (and by some, I mean a LOT) of us to whom this kind of thinking is foreign. If any of us in this apparently invisible group had seen the “guy and three Mexicans” mentioned toward the beginning of the article, we would have seen only four guys. So don’t go arrogantly proclaiming that all white Americans are scum because of the mindsets of some.

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Ever been to an inner city
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Posted by: stevesdao on Aug 31, 2005 1:37 PM   
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Living in Detroit, I have seen the consequences of "white flight". The so-called Whites are a minority in Detroit, a city filled with crime, corruption, poverty and filth. The suburbs, where the so-called Whites are the majority are prosperous, clean and safe. While I never advocate urban sprawl, this metropolitan area basically did it out of concern for a safe environment in which to raise a family. What is the problem with that? Not to mention that hardly anyone can afford to live in Detroit with a car because insurance is about 4 times what it costs if you live just over the county line.

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» RE: What happened in Detroit Posted by: searay7971
Re: People's Comments (a rant)
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Posted by: Thlayli on Aug 31, 2005 1:59 PM   
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Although this article might be a bit heavy-handed, people's responses to this piece are absurd.

Must all articles be devoid of fallacy? Written perfectly? Lacking of opposing viewpoints? Is everything else only worthy of scorn? It appears so. Even many of you who claim to be rational, and pinpoint numerous fallacies in this article, cannot refrain from taking ad hominem stabs or making remarks calculated to offend.

I long for a community that not only brings interesting and thoughtful viewpoints to the forefront, but encourages positive discussion in a respectful manner. I guess I'd better get used to that longing. Such a community does not likely exist.

To those who were calm and positive in their reply (even if you thought this whole article wasn't worth the electrons that carried it here), thanks. Your comments were a breath of fresh air in the fetid wind of hatred and contempt.

OK, I'm done. Flame away, evidently that's what forums are for. Bah.

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Deja Vu All Over Again
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Posted by: aswgt@ix.netcom.com on Aug 31, 2005 2:03 PM   
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Yesterday we were consuming an extraordinary amount of bandwidth to discuss an injudicious remark by a Swedish bureacrat -- and whether or not it had invalidated the entire Feminist agenda ...

And today we're discussion how the legacies of racism are not White people's problem ...

But we don't think there's any such thing as White Male Privilege ...

Or if it's a problem, it's not OUR problem ... it's three other guys'

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meeps
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Posted by: Meeps on Aug 31, 2005 2:13 PM   
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holy hell. this is why i hate liberals almost as much as i hate conservatives. all whites are privelaged and therefore in some way racist....all blacks are criminals and good rappers...all asians are good at math and kung fu....all muslims are terrorists....please tell me the difference between these blanket statements, cuz they sure seem the same to me.

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» RE: meeps Posted by: mwildfire
Whites are the spawn of Satan and should all be killed
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Posted by: surlybob on Aug 31, 2005 2:44 PM   
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Replace every instance of the word "white" in this article with "black" and then tell me that it's not racist.

This is why the left is dying. It's really hard to get away with calling Bush a hypocrite when any GOP flame warrior can associate you with articles like this one.

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Whites and Hurricane katrina
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Posted by: AmericanVictim on Aug 31, 2005 2:46 PM   
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most of the victims of hurricane Katrina have been and are going to be black.

most of the victims of 9-11 were white.

notice the tone of the journalists as they broadcast the aftermath of katrina.

they do not show the tragedy side, the loss of life, in the same tone of mourning that they did with the victims of 9-11.

it's more about it being a "catastrophe" the "aftermath"
not the tragedy.

maybe i'm being too critical. maybe it's because the numbers of the lives lost have not come in. although one expert predicted that 1/3 of 230,000 souls lost to drowning from the floods caused by Katrina.

i can't help but wonder if the tone would be different if all the peopleshown on tv trying to stay afloat were white instead of black?

or if the majority of people who were being moved New Orleans to the Astrodome in Houston?

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» American Victim Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: American Victim Posted by: AmericanVictim
» RE: American Victim Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Whites and Hurricane katrina Posted by: AmericanVictim
» RE: Whites and Hurricane katrina Posted by: AmericanVictim
» media Posted by: kittykat
"this guy" was Anglo?
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Posted by: cjones on Aug 31, 2005 2:51 PM   
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The author using the term "this guy" was Anglo is the same sort of thing as saying There was this guy and three Mexicans

Because someone is white does not make them Anglo. Anglo is a reference to Anglia, or England. Not all white people come from that island.

Make up your mind.

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No...
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Posted by: rancidreligion13 on Aug 31, 2005 3:05 PM   
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The author is not calling one white before recognizing them as an American, he is stating that American, through historical subconscious and power, is synonomous with "white". He is not saying that we should be blind to backgrounds, but what he is saying is that the default is white, that the average is white, that white IS American and American IS white, in modern society. What purpose is there to explain in any depth a difference between men standing around? It shows the subconscious idea that the default white American is the only correct American.

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What to do now - let's start with education
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Posted by: CrystalD on Aug 31, 2005 3:08 PM   
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All the awareness of white privilege means nothing if no-one can or will do anything about it. Since the task of dismantling privilege (in general) seems overwhelming, it might help to break it down into bite-sized steps. One of the most important things that can be done is to make sure every child gets a decent education in a good school - starting with preschool.

Begin with mandatory and publicly funded preschool. Not only will this free all parents up to work (and pay taxes!) without hassling with finding child care, studies have shown that children, especially poor children, benefit hugely from preschool.

Then on to public grade and high schools that pay teachers what they deserve - in the six figures if you ask me. Teachers are more important than athletes and movie stars. Let's pay them as if we valued them, and in turn expect a LOT more than just a warm body in a classroom. And instead of the better teachers going to plush suburban schools, let's offer incentives for the real cream of the teaching crop to go to the schools where poor children attend so they can benefit. Poor kids are less likely to have parents who can advocate for them so they NEED the good teachers.

Public schools need to be safe, clean buildings with functioning heat and air conditioning, and no vermin problems. And toilets that flush and have TP.

Poor kids need the same up-to-date books and educational supplies that rich kids get. Again, poor parents are less likely to be able to buy pencils, construction paper and textbooks themselves.

Let's make ALL our public schools institutions to be proud of instead of ashamed of. Mandatory preschool and quality K-12 education will go a long way toward leveling the playing field.

Oh yeah, who shall pay? Corporations. You know, the ones who hire those kids when they grow up. Part of doing business in the US needs to be paying "rent," as it were, in the form of taxes. Corporations do not pay nearly enough.

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Are you WHITE or LIGHT
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 31, 2005 3:16 PM   
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White thinking has prevaled here since Columbus landed.White thinking held that manifest destiny gave them the right to be genocidal maniacs,White thinking allows for eminant domain to displace homeowners and landowners for the good of industry. White thinking holds that the Earth and everything on it is to be exploited for it's monetary worth.White thinking says that because i have the most money I can be as evil as I want for I can buy anybody.White
thinking says it's O.K. to drive by walkers in an evacuation so you can save your own ass even when you have room to help. Sure I was born with white skin,raised in a white socical
order,and expected to fit into the white mold apon graduation.
Woops, I saw blacks being beaten for wanting to eat at the lunch counter in a Dayton Dept. Store in the early 60's. I saw people that cared for other people,no matter the skin color,
labeled 'white trash'. I saw thr government kill people for standing up against oppression. I saw the government sell out
the people for oil. So when you ask me if I'm white,no brother I'm not, I'm light

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» RE: Are you WHITE or LIGHT Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Are you WHITE or LIGHT Posted by: kittykat
From the "white boy"
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Posted by: Just Some Dude on Aug 31, 2005 3:44 PM   
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Look, if my "yellow chick" comment offended anyone I apologize. Let me tell you a bit more. I am living in China. I have been here for a number of years. I have had the opportunity to work with people from all over the world these past few years. So my attitudes on the whole race thing are probably out of whack with the rest of you who are in the States.

I never realized how much working overseas has changed my attitude about race and culture. I feel my attitudes about people from other cultures have matured now that I have had to opportunity to work in an environment where the color of your skin, the place you call home or the accent in your voice has no bearing.

Of the group of friends I have here, it's quite large, I am the only "white man" amongst them. Most times when we are all out I will be the only white man with the group. More often than not I am the only westerner in a bar or restaurant. I always get stared at. It's quite the experience.

I do get a lot of verbal crap in bars from Brits, Germans and other western countries for being a war mongering American and it's sad.

I enjoy my holidays in the states in that I can just merge in with all the different colors of my country.

As for the pet name for my wife; my god people, lighten up. More often than not I tell her she's ok for a Chinese woman, more so than a yellow chick. We are beyond skin colors and differences in culture. As we say here "mei wen ti", no problem.

It's sad to think that once I get back to the US in a few months I will have to start pretending that all my fellow Americans are grey and colorless and ignore the fact that we all come from different cultures. I feel sorry for those of you who can't embrace your culture and celebrate it and feel that you are some how being held back.

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Assimilate but don't leave your place!
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Posted by: Sophie on Aug 31, 2005 4:06 PM   
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I am black and know people who like to bandy about the term "American," and it's pretty clear that they mean "white" when they do. For example, Baseball is American--not football, not basketball. They want all foreigners who come here to assimilate and become "Americans." What does that mean? They mean that they want them to act like they do. But here's the little twist of lime: Once you conform, make sure you don't leave your place. Make them comfortable, and tacitly acknowledge that they're in control, or else. You can assimilate all you want, but if you start getting "uppity" you will be unceremoniously reminded of who you really are.

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Stop buying this product!
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Posted by: Carsten001 on Aug 31, 2005 7:31 PM   
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I am white,34, male. I am proud of this. Why shouldn't I be? I am proud to live in a society that discussions such as these are something we all have time for. I refuse to continue buying into the premise that I must feel guilty for my heritage - like anyone else, I can't help it. I can treat people with the dignity and respect they deserve as human beings. Stop buying this product the intellectual, political, and marketing elite are selling us all - no matter our skin color!

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White Man's Burden
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Posted by: shocknawe on Aug 31, 2005 7:46 PM   
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This columnist, as is the case with practically all columnists at this site, obviously has his head up his ass.

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» RE: White Man's Burden Posted by: johng
Utopianism
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Posted by: Rod in 83706 on Aug 31, 2005 8:00 PM   
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We have (rightly so) legislated equality of race, creed color, national origin, etc., in this country. But you just cannot legislate that people like each other, nor should you try.

These utopian dreams are the reason Democrats have lost the presidency (twice) and the Senate and House to the Republicans. Another utopian dream is gun control, something that is immensely unpopular in this country. Stuff like that makes Democrats a laughing stock and loses elections to the theocratic, autocratic, corporate robber-barron Republicans. Democrats -- get a clue!

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I stopped exterminating people in 1987.
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Posted by: Tommy on Aug 31, 2005 8:15 PM   
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What do white "Americans" do with those who share the country but aren't white? What do we do with peoples we once tried to exterminate? People we once enslaved? People we imported for labor and used like animals to build railroads? People we still systematically exploit as low-wage labor?

What a load of crap. I'm white. One of the apartments next to me is owned by a black couple. The other is owned by a Hispanic family. I have no problem sharing my world with them. I've never tried to exterminate them or enslave them (I've hugged my neighbors a couple of times, but hopefully they didn't interpret that as a sign that I wanted to exploit them like animals).

Why is it that condescending liberal activists are more aware of race than even the most bigoted Ku Klux Klan member? You want to fight racism? Tell the government to stop classifying everyone under six classifications of ethnicity. Don't tolerate prejudice or let it go unremarked upon (it's easy to write a book, but do you put your money where your mouth is?).

But save the "white man can save us" crap for someone who believes that shit. First of all, white people aren't the only ones who hate other people for ridiculous reasons. Hate to break it to you, but bigots come in every flavor. Second of all, by assuming that racism is a problem that only white people have, you're perpetuating the tired mythology that only white people can save us from our sins.

You want to fight racism? Stop accepting it. When I was 20, my friend Tanya was upset. She thought everyone was staring at us because she was black and I was white. I don't know if that was true, but the solution was easy. I stood up, took her hand, and french kissed her in the middle of Hardees. I can't stop people from being idiots, but I sure as hell can make sure they KNOW I think they're idiots.

Prejudice is stupid. But using a color-coded system to assign blame is even more stupid. Stop settling for cliches and start looking further. People have been intolerant of anyone different from them for too damn long. It's time they know that we won't tolerate them anymore.

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» RE: Kissing your girlfriend Posted by: searay7971
» Are you serious searay? Posted by: Olympiada
» Race Posted by: Olympiada
What?
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Aug 31, 2005 8:46 PM   
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First - Nobody's keeping anybody out of the game.
1- The Armed Forces have been integrated since Truman.
2- Brown v Topeka Board happened in the 1950's and integrated schools have been the norm for a minimum of 30 years. In some places it was PRIOR to Brown v Board.
3- Universities have been integrated for a MINIMUM of 35 years and in many places far longer than that.
4- Discrimination has been largely eradicated. Any citizen with a legitimate grievance has established recourse via our legal system.

Next- Stop living in the past.
1- Americans under 50 have no direct memory of enforced segregation. In another generation the only memory will be archived history.
2- Despite contrary claims by many of the liberal intelligentsia, racism and problematic racial attitudes exist in communities of color. One pontificator actually had the audacity to appear on Donahue & claimed that racism was inherent in whites and impossible in people of African descent. The fact he was not laughed out of the studio is telling of liberal attitudes toward such nonsense.
3- The Black/African-American community as a whole has not made a significant effort to assimilate into the American culture. Witness the Black Miss University of (fill in state of choice) contests in 2005. Witness 'Black Colleges'. Witness Black Entertainment Television. As long as Black America remains in it's self-imposed sub-cultural ghetto, they will never attain their rightful place in our culture. There is nothing wrong with pride in one's heritage and traditional culture, but it should not be the primary defining fact of one's life.

Finally- A rich cultural stew
Tens of millions of all of our ancestors came to this country from another culture and have brought their heritage to the greater 'American' culture. American culture is not a 'White' culture as it has imported elements from every land that our ancestors have come from and added many things that have descended from that rich cultural stew. From the first residents of this land (Native Tribes) to the newest citizen, our culture is unique, more dynamic and fruitful than any other. Our culture is the envy of the world because of it's diversity. To call our culture 'white' is to do a disservice to the people of many cultures that have brought it to this place and time.

E Pluribus Unum- Out of many, one

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» RE: What? Posted by: kittynboi
» Black Separatism Posted by: Olympiada
Sick of this tired old BS in this Article
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Posted by: papasmith on Aug 31, 2005 10:30 PM   
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Institutions by nature go to great lengths in an attempt to do whatever is needed to justify there existence long after their usefulness. It is the same for the institution that has been built up around blaming whitey especially white males for everything that is wrong in this society and indeed the world. I'm damn tired of it. Time for the author to start recognizing the black race needs to take repsonsibility and blame for the fortunes of their race. Not doing so is leaving blacks and easy excuse for their failures. "Hell, it ain't my fault, it's whitey. He's keeping me down."

You're not doing the black race any favors by implying that their plight, whatever that is, is due to predjudicial attitudes of white people. Fact is, black values, which I see in some cases less materialistic and more social, are probably more of explanation for their lagging behind whites and other races generally in the academic, political, or economic arenas. I think we as whites have a lot to learn from them.

Here is a little story. Blacks in Miami complained loudly of being second class citizens behind whitey. Well some Cubans swam a shore in the 60's with nothing more than the wet tattered shirts on their backs. They have since created a prosperous community. Now the black leader are complaining of being third class citizens. Come on now!!!

If you are a white person, or a black person tired of someone like this trying to tell you what should be important to you and how you should feel and, you are tired of tunnel visioned intellectuals who reside in some academic ivory tower who are just looking for an opportunity to exercise their academic credentials such as this joker, telling whites that they are basically the source of every problem from mistreatment of the blacks to moldy bread, you need to speak out. Just because he has a degree, doesn't make him right or for that matter, any smarter. Ask yourself, what does he think he trying to do? What is he trying to guilt you into believing or doing? I am tired of people like this, insulated from the realities of the world trying to make me feel ashamed of who I am and what my race has done. Aren't you?

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» Cubans Swam Ashore? Posted by: decembrist
White Hang Ups.
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Posted by: itchyvet on Sep 1, 2005 1:26 AM   
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WOW !!!! find it HARD to believe, that so many citizens in America are so Hung up about being White, and before you go fer the key board, YES, I am also white.
There can NEVER be any denying, the White race has been a curse on this poor old planet, and probably will, in the end, spell it's demise.
There isn't much I can do about that, other then what I already do, neither can anyone else for that matter.
However, the RELATIONSHIP between differing colurs can NEVER be resolved or MINIMISED, for the simple reason, it makes us all different, and that is what makes the World such an interesting place.
I've travelled the World and have had many friends of differeing colours and found them to be basicaly, EXACTLY THE SAME AS I, with the exception, they thought differently then I, which again, made them so intriguing and interesting, I was at all times comfortable with my colour, though occassionaly did feel uncomfortable when mention was being made to some action being perpetrated against someone of colour, though no one in the group, saw fit to suggest somehow I was accountable or responsable for the problem.
I also found, despite the many claims of Governments that RASCISM IS RAMPANT round the World, wherever you go, you will find RACSISM some where.
I found it rampant in Singapore,Malaysia,Vietnam,even my home land Germany, and the country I live in,(Australia) despite it's claims, is also very much Racist.
On one side of my home, I have Macedonian immigrants, who've been in this country for over 30 years, and are Naturelised Australian citizens, yet their Racism has to be seen and heard to be believed.
On the opposite side, I have 1/4 caste indigenous Australians, who simply refuse to speak to anyone in the street, if they are not of indigenous extraction.
I have also witnessed racism at work in the workplace, between indigenous persons from differing tribes, irrespective of the COLOUR, as have in S.E. Asia where the colour didn't make any difference, but the language diferences did.
I think it's high time we ACCEPTED our differences, and got on with ourlives, trying to CAPITALISE on those differences, taking what they have to offer and hopefully formulating something good from it all.
Get a life people, and get on with it.

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'Person' = White MALE (in the American media)
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Posted by: blacksheep on Sep 1, 2005 1:50 AM   
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I've been an American ex-patriot for 14 years now. I still follow American politics very closely, as you can see by the fact that I'm reading this and commenting. I am a white, lesbian female ( i.e. a persona non grata in America). When I think of America, I do not just think of the way American media and Hollywood like to represent America. I have learned how to read media texts critically and I recognise these representations as what they are - images constructed by and for neurotic white male egomaniacs.

When I think of America, I think of what America stands for, and should be. To me America is a dream, a set of ideals, embodied in our Constitution and constructed at a time when the Enlightenment values of rational freedom (and personal responsibility) meant something important. When I was growing up in the seventies, and coming to the realization that I was different, and could never share, like other white women, in the white patriarchal dream, it was only with black friends that I could really find a sense of identification. Unfortunately, the main reason we could relate, was that they too were somehow "outside" of the white male American dream. I believe that this dream does not work, because it is too narrow, and false. White men are not automatically 'heroic' (As TV and movies would have us believe) mostly because our society ensures that they never have to sacrifice anything or suffer for the sake of other people, or do anything that is genuinely unselfish, since everything revolves around the gratification of their needs, their desires, their fantasies of omnipotence. But even white men are victims of the false image of themselves they construct, because they too must aspire to live up to this idealized perfect image of 'manhood' that they shove down the culture's collective throat, and many of them cannot, no matter how much they pump iron at the gym to try and look the part. No, America is not the fantasies spun by infantile white men who have lost all sense of what true virtue means. Whenever I think of 'America' in a positive way, I think of black Americans and all of the marginalized groups in their persistent struggles to keep the dream alive.

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White people are the problem
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Posted by: Frumkinlovesmoney on Sep 1, 2005 3:30 AM   
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They have not fought hard enough against government enforced racism like Affirmative Action because many were born with a racial spoon in their mouth and never experienced racsim in their youth. They find out quick enough when they enter the work place though.

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I am a marxist?!
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Posted by: Olympiada on Sep 1, 2005 9:36 AM   
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Oh my goodness, I just got called a marxist by a black woman. That is so hilarious. What a funny thing to come out of this discussion! I really better take a look at my thinking now, I am having too much fun!
Tommy Marx, where are you? Let's discuss!
ROFL!

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» RE: I am a marxist?! continued Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: I am a marxist?! Posted by: johng
» Grouch Marx Posted by: Olympiada
corporate media demonstrates bias again
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Posted by: jk on Sep 1, 2005 9:44 AM   
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I have been watching the news coverage of the devastating affects of Hurrican Katrina, and am appalled at MSNBC and CNN's lack of awareness in promoting white privilege. For example, MSNBC interviewed all white citizens today who are looking for their loved ones that remained in their homes during the hurricane. MSNBC reported from a little white community hit by the hurricane, interviewing the citizens who want all to know that "they are not looting" when they take something from the debri, because what they take is "worthless". "They" are pitching in and "helping" each other unlike their neighboring mostly Black city folks who "aren't". Now, personally, I don't fault the good white citizens who are worried about their family members or who are helping their neighbors. That is what EVERYONE should do AND IS. BUT... let's balance the reporting of concerned family and feel good stories by showing on the news an interview of the many good citizens of color in the "neighboring" cities on how they are helping each other as any good American citizen does in times of crisis. In fact, let's compare year round help to neighborhoods of color compared to white neighborhoods. I bet we'd discover a wide gap and lack of concern about anyone but themselves in the individualist white "communities" compared to the daily support and help for others within communities of color.
Let's talk about how Bush cut funding for repairs in the levies or lack of action and plans taken BEFORE the hurricane hit. Let's talk about the Bush Administration's more concern about businesses hurt in the aftermath of the hurricane over the people. Let's talk about the white supremist skeleton in W's closet.

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amazing
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Posted by: Michelle on Sep 1, 2005 10:23 AM   
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This is a two-topic comment

1. I have just skimmed through some of the comments to this article and -- white alternet-reading liberals/lefties are just as defensive as other white people when it comes to looking at white supremacy.

2. Specifically to the author, if he is reading this:

You wrote:

Look in the mirror honestly and concede that we live in an unjust society and have no right to some of what we have. We should not affirm ourselves. We should negate our whiteness. Strip ourselves of the illusion that we are special because we are white. Steel ourselves so that we can walk in the world fully conscious and try to see what is usually invisible to us white people. We should learn to ask ourselves, "How does it feel to be the problem?"

Well, Robert, this is all very well and good, but what you are writing here still keeps white subjectivity front and center. Seriously.

What white people know and see and learn to feel is below basic and is certainly NOT the point.

It is what white people DO that really matters. Collectively, white people need to give up ownership and control of the land, the resources, and the practice of setting the terms of cultural ways and decision-making processes.

Giving up control does not mean giving up responsibility for doing our share of the work (the blurring between control and responsibility is another white cultural construct that needs to die).

It is perhaps easier for white people who make money from universities as tenured faculty to feel that the whole thing is about the need for reflection and consciousness and psychological processes. In my view, it's past that stage now.

The illusion goes so deep that those strategies are not going to yield useful action from white people. Certainly white anti-racist academics will find a lot to keep you busy working with "white conscousness." But seriously, there has been a lot of effort in that direction in many contexts, and at some level you have to be aware that it's just not working if the yardstick is sustained and consistent action of giving up control but retaining responsibility for this mess we have created.

We are the problem, yes. But from what I have seen of anti-racist white people, staring into that mirror is just another white trick of maintaining control and center-status.

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Iconoclast
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Posted by: johng on Sep 2, 2005 8:26 AM   
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Hey Robert - Whites are not necessarily Anglos. But, then again, a White is a White is a White, right? Is your use of the equation Anglo=White your ignorance, or just the ignorance you presume to project on the two Whites in your anecdote? It's this same kind of stereotypical thinking for which you seem to criticize [all] white people in your article, which could be construed by people who don't know you to be, well, racist.

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» RE: Iconoclast Posted by: decembrist
» This reminds me of .. Posted by: retsam
» Italians Posted by: Olympiada
Clarification & Insight
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Posted by: retsam on Sep 3, 2005 8:55 AM   
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What is the nature of racism ? What is its driving force ? Let’s step back even farther ? What is the nature of Life ? In my experience, humans, like other living organisms, fight for every little bit of ground that they can acquire. If they can get leverage, so much the better. For a normal functioning organism, they will only give up ground if they are forced to or it it benefits a person/project close to them. These normally functioning organisms may be able to outperform others within their normal realm of operation (doing anything to succeed (within their limited perception of “anything”), such as acquiring money & power, and kissing ass in order to acquire money & power). They are unable, however, to even comprehend that which has never affected them. If an organism is deformed in some way, perhaps some environmental factor (disease, chemicals, physical injury, mutation, etc.) changed it in some way, and especially if the deformation was dramatic, then the organism will percieve it’s environment differently. For starters, it will become aware of that which caused its deformation. Physical changes are rarely simple. We live in an infinite universe which can map infinite possibilities into us. We have the possibility of large scale changes in perceptions. There are a couple of significant consequences of deformation/mutation. One is that the organism can gain perception & information, and the other is that the organism can learn to appreciate the deformation/mutation that changed it.

In our world, organisms seem to be highly self-protective. This is because most external stimuli seems to be destructive. It seems natural that organisms are selfish. In our world, organisms are often attacked by terrible diseases. If an organism does Not have the benefits of extra perception and the intelligence to appreciate that possibility that careful deformations can lead to much better things, it seems not too unnatural for an organism to be destructive towards a strange creature.

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» RE: Clarification & Insight Posted by: retsam
» Interesting perspective Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Interesting perspective Posted by: retsam
» careful deformations Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: careful deformations Posted by: retsam
» RE: careful deformations Posted by: retsam
» Rachel Corrie? Posted by: Olympiada
» What drives me? Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: What drives me? Posted by: retsam
» Private affairs Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: careful deformations Posted by: retsam
» strenth & complexity Posted by: retsam
» RE: strenth & complexity Posted by: retsam
» Interesting thought Posted by: Olympiada
» The OT is interesting Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: The OT is interesting Posted by: retsam
» A good start Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: A good start Posted by: retsam
» Wouldn't it be nice? Posted by: Olympiada
Irritation
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Posted by: Olympiada on Sep 3, 2005 12:15 PM   
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This issue is too deep. This author has stirred up a hornet's nest. Was it worth the trouble? Was it productive? I do not know.
How much experience does this author have with people of other culture's? That is my question. Academic knowledge does not cut it...Is he is provoking us all? Why?
Reading some of these comments provokes anger in me...

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Today's world is who's "RICH", not what's your color......
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Posted by: butterfly on Sep 3, 2005 1:18 PM   
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I'm sorry but I do not agree that "whites" are somehow being treated above the rest...there was a time when this was true. But in this so called free country we have it's all about who has the money. I was raised by textile income and there was no college funds and no extra money for entertainment and shopping, etc. There was no special help for us... I truly believe if the "adults" would let the children make their own choice about each other, racism can be fought through them. It's our goverment, it's the rich politicians...it's the money..The root of all evil. God said this and we are all God's people. So, sometimes I think we are forwarding the problems in the wrong direction...It's the rich White man..The rich Black man and so on.

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We need to remember
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Posted by: Mythsaje on Sep 3, 2005 2:27 PM   
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we are all human, and some of this racial crap is used to divide us who have little from those who have much.

A good portion of the problem isn't race, it's CLASS.

But racism is a much safer topic than "Class Warfare" even though it's the wealthy who started the war.

Let's not fall for the whole Divide and Conquer trick.

Please!

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Black Unity Brings White Freedom Pt: 1
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Posted by: FutureGodsun on Sep 3, 2005 3:17 PM   
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Dear Brothers & Sisters,

GENESIS 1:26 - Then God said...

"Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness; and let THEM rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth."

The greatest of GOD's mercy is that when a segment of his people strays from the Divine path that he has created for us, before he punishes, GOD will raise amongst the people a prophet or a messenger. He will then give his prophet or his messenger the gift of "Divine Revelation" that warns us of our ungodly actions.

The message is then to bring those people back to the righteous path and should they hear the message (from the prophet or messenger) through the gift of insight, GOD will give them divine favor.

Whenever GOD sends revelations, he is opening up his secrets of himself and his creations that will allow the recipient of that knowledge to be raised from madness to the level of greatness and excellence. This is why I thank God for Moses and the Torah. I thank GOD for Jesus and the gospel or the Holy Bible. I thank GOD for Muhammad and the Holy Qu'ran.

Peace to all these worthy servants of GOD.

We should become students of the basic fundamentals of life. We are Divine as the GOD Almighty himself. Although we don't posses the same powers as he, GOD has giving each and everyone one of us mighty gifts that we must manifest and present to the rest of the world.

A terrible tragedy has happen to our great nation. It is not the government nor military that makes our nation great. It is her people that realizes the power of unity and the power of giving that catapults a nation to a level like no other.

GOD created each and every one of us in his own image and there is no other person in the world designed the exact same. He has also given us great gifts that we must use in order to uplift each other to his righteous path.

Proper education mean constant elevation! Which means that proper education is supposed to cultivate what GOD has put within so that those of us that are cultivated can share with those who are not. Not for our own personal glory or political gain, but for HIS purpose.

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It's the economy, stupid!
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Posted by: Dianka on Sep 4, 2005 7:45 PM   
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Racism is very real, but when it comesd to our government, the issue of race comes second to that of economic status. We now actually have government policies that have effectively created a seperate body of law based on an individual's economic status, and not surprisingly, these policies significantly reduce the fundamental civil and human rights of the poor. We Americans actually support policies that directly violate international human rights agreements (such as our welfare "reform" policies), and it's worth noting that the majority of America's very-low-income people are white.

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HERE'S ONE BURDEN
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Posted by: DivabyLaw on Sep 5, 2005 8:32 AM   
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In fairness, I must say there are Anglo-Saxons who do not share the sentiment of racism. If a social burden is to be carried, let it be known, only the white racists who cause the social problems shall bear sole responsibility of blame. In their present state of mind they could care less.

"How am I the burden?" "What is the burden?" These may be questions from a racist. Until the conscience of a racist is quickened to realize its impact--let's say--on legislative policy as it affects funds distributed to poor non-white voters, it will be a long time before civil reasoning can take place within the mind of a white racist.

State and federal programs using sliding scales based on a family's income uses GROSS pay. What average, low-income family brings home GROSS pay? These families may have deductions from that gross pay for health insurance, life insurance, dental care, vision plans, and disability insurance (because the Social Security Administration will not release money without years of appeals from claimants).

Moreover, the general consensus places the responsibility for such policies on racist whites who are in key positions to consistently create and implement policies to work against the efforts of the non-white poor people to become self-sufficent. And, I dare say, white racists could care less if a few low-income white families have to suffer also.

It will take much time, relentless effort, and loving patience on the part of the larger population before racist whites will dare to admit they are the problem---not only against non-whites---but, against America and her standing in the world community.

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» RE: HERE'S ONE BURDEN Posted by: mochajava13
"White" Woman's Burden
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Posted by: Olympiada on Sep 5, 2005 5:11 PM   
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I wanted to say thanks to Jensen and Alternet for this article and discussion. Of course I do not agree with everything, but I appreciate the discussion. It was a gift for me, who had to end an interracial marriage this spring. Marriage is a public affair, not a private affair, as is divorce. There is nothing private about marriage. Marriage and divorce are both public record. If you know a person's legal name, which by the way this is not, you can look it up.

It has been healing for me to discuss with so many people these issues. I am grateful. I appreciate folks willingness to discuss this issue admist the greatest natural or unnatural disaster in American history.

This is a very intense time.

There are no easy answers to this 'question of race'.

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» RE: "White" Woman's Burden Posted by: DivabyLaw
An Example of Ignorant White Privelege
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Posted by: decembrist on Sep 5, 2005 9:58 PM   
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Barbara Bush: Things Working Out 'Very Well' for Poor [and mostly black] Evacuees from New Orleans

By E&P Staff

Published: September 05, 2005 7:25 PM ET updated 8:00 PM

NEW YORK Accompanying her husband, former President George H.W.Bush, on a tour of hurricane relief centers in
Houston, Barbara Bush said today, referring to the
poor who had lost everything back home and evacuated,
"This is working very well for them."

Then she added: "What I’m hearing which is sort of
scary is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is
so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you
know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this (she
chuckles slightly) is working very well for them."

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Katrina shows we're united
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Posted by: clarasam on Sep 6, 2005 7:33 AM   
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When the images of Katrina washed into our own homes, most Americans didn't see race or economic divisions. We saw people suffering from the ravages of a terrible storm, and communities throughout this country began to act, to send money, supplies and in some cases themselves. Shame on those of you who want to turn a natural disaster into a political debate about racism and class warfare. Those that continually talk about a nation that is divided by walls, are so blinded by the chip on their shoulder in the shape of the United States, that they can't even see that they are the ones building those very structures. Many that are helping across this country contend that Government and taxpayers shouldn't be forced to hold the hands of individuals who want to live their lives in an irresponsible manner, but we also understand the magnitude of this disaster and we put our politics and beliefs away for the day and just help without pointing fingers our blaming or asking why some people have a piece of the American pie and others don't.


Those that want to blame the White House and the Federal government, without even pointing a finger at the local and State government, have shown that they aren't interested in answers at all. They just reveal a rage and hatred of one man.

Why wasn't the Superdome and Convention center stocked with medical supplies....food, water?
Why were hundreds of school buses still in their parking lots?
Why weren't hospitals and nursing homes evacuated first?
How many people, black or white, rich or poor chose to stay in their homes?
Did the city have a disaster plan?
Did the State act a day late?
Did FEMA act a day late?

These are all questions that need to be answered, but not now.
There will be plenty of time for that.

This hurricane didn't choose one particular path of destruction. The man that owns the restaurant and the man that washes the dishes will go back home one day and their lives will be similar in so many ways. They'll rebuild their communities, their neighborhoods and their city with the help of the entire nation.

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» RE: Katrina shows we're united Posted by: littlebogi
» RE: Katrina shows we're united Posted by: mochajava13
Missing the point
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Posted by: smitch on Sep 6, 2005 12:56 PM   
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After reading this disappointing article and some of the even more disappointing comments I have to say that many people are missing the point entirely. Race should not be the basis used to judge people. I grew up in an interracial family in Florida during the seventies. When I was a kid most people in my small town knew about my family, so I was called either a nigger or a nigger lover many, many times (my skin is on the paler side, to those that keep track of such superficial information). After I moved away I became whitey/cracker to the name callers (still numerous in number by the way). How important was the actual color of my skin?

Nobody has the right to declare any people inferior OR superior based on skin color.

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» re: missing the point Posted by: decembrist
» RE: re: missing the point Posted by: smitch
YES
[Report this comment]
Posted by: marshallrmb on Sep 7, 2005 5:56 AM   
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My son and I, two social liberals who do not have a racist bone in there body, but when asked if they see a person as black, white ,pink or blue first, the answer is yes...but I also see blond, black, red, green and blue hair...green and gold trees...white and yellow cars..my doctor is a man, my pharmacist is a man, the kids orthodontist is a man and my boss is a man but I see them as chinese, white and black first...is this a problem or just the programming of the human brain to catergorize to understand and compute all the data available...in Bush's case it is purely geographic ignorance because what we see when computed makes us all one.

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» RE: YES Posted by: littlebogi
I Just Don't Get It.
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Posted by: littlebogi on Sep 7, 2005 1:12 PM   
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I watched Naomi Wolf on TV, she is out of control, sarcastic hateful. Accusrd our men and women in uniform who are rescuing people in N.O. of racism. Doesn't one Democrat understand that it takes time to load ships, aircraft, trucks. Why send troops to an area without the means to sustain them? N.O. is a dead city, everything had to be brought in. 25,000 people have been rescued by the Coast Guard, were they all white people? Where was the Mayor of N.O., the Governor of LA? Would Rudy Guilliani have acted differently? Would Governor Pataki? It takes time to call up the guard (Governor's responsibility). The Guard and Military have often been called to help in natural disasters, when is the last time they had to be fully armed before going to a city or region in America to lend assistance? I don't get it! I was born in MA, a white, Catholic, Democrat. My first vote for JFK. I served in the Air Force, have 4 children, 6 grandchildren. I vote in every election, pay taxes, own a home. Pretty ordinary guy. I don't understand what happened to the Democratic Party that I loved. In the Democratic party I knew one could own guns and be a Democrat, one could beleive that life was sacred and began at conception and be a Democrat, most did. When did you have to hate a President, America to be a Democrat? What happened, where did it go? I was proud to be a member of the Party of Truman, JFK, F.Roosevelt. I am so disappointed in what the Democratic Party has become. To attempt to use the worst natural disaster in our country's history as an opportunity to divide the country by race, to make statements that can incite, divide. nurture hate is inexcusable! What is the matter with you? Do you hate one man so much that you will make statements that can cost more lives? George Bush cannot run for re-election, you're wasting your time! You have and are losing moderate people like me and my family, we choose to vote for our values, hate is not a value. My grandparents came here from Poland with very little, they came here legally. they had to learn English, they would not speak Polish in public, they became citizens, they helped others get started, they celebrated Christmas, they were not racists, their sons fought in WWII. I just can't disregard the lessons I learned from them. It's time to look back at what the Democratic Party once was. What happened? I just don't get it!

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Mexicans
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Posted by: muldoomstone on Sep 7, 2005 2:15 PM   
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Here's an example: I'm in line at a store, unavoidably eavesdropping on two white men in front of me, as one tells the other about a construction job he was on. He says: "There was this guy and three Mexicans standing next to the truck." From other things he said, it was clear that "this guy" was Anglo, white, American. It also was clear from the conversation that this man had not spoken to the "three Mexicans" and had no way of knowing whether they were Mexicans or U.S. citizens of Mexican heritage.

It didn't matter. The "guy" was the default setting for American: Anglo, white. The "three Mexicans" were not Anglo, not white, and therefore not American. It wasn't "four guys standing by a truck." It was "a guy and three Mexicans." The race and/or ethnicity of the four men were irrelevant to the story he was telling. But the storyteller had to mark it. It was important that "the guy" not be confused with "the three Mexicans."

This is as it should be. The fact you're not man enough to accept is that this ISN'T Mexico. Mexicans don't belong in this country. They already have their own country, Mexico - they shouldn't have this one as well.

As you said yourself, this is a white country. Now I know jews like you want to make whites extinct and that's why you support multiculturalism and immigration, but the fact is whites are more entitled to this country than any other race. It belongs to white people. Whites are IN NO WAY obligated to treat Mexicans fairly or in a non-racist manner. Mexicans are INVADERS. Whites are the owners of the country, Mexicans are the foreign army invading it. We need to kick them out, not show them tolerance or affirmative action.

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» Scumbag Posted by: decembrist
» RE: Scumbag Posted by: perkinsc3595
» I'm Here to Fight it Out Posted by: decembrist
» RE: I'm Here to Fight it Out Posted by: perkinsc3595
» RE: Mexicans Posted by: mochajava13
» RE: Mexicans Posted by: Winston
Just Put Up A Large Wall
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Posted by: perkinsc3595 on Sep 8, 2005 9:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why don't we split the land and money and put up a Gaint Wall and not live together Trust me all the WHITES would be happier, and with all of the blacks goverment money going to pay welfare, they will starve and we will get the land back anyway. Just to let you know I did not enslave you and i can care less who did You should thank god every day that you were brought here. It could be a lot worse you could be in your HOMELAND swatting the flies off you hungry children. I am so sick of hearing all the crying. For example let the white people have a United White people college fund. There would be lawsuits flying.

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» RE: Just Put Up A Large Wall Posted by: mochajava13
» RE: Just Put Up A Large Wall Posted by: perkinsc3595
» RE: Just Put Up A Large Wall Posted by: kittykat
» RE: Just Put Up A Large Wall Posted by: perkinsc3595
» RE: Just Put Up A Large Wall Posted by: kittykat
reply
[Report this comment]
Posted by: perkinsc3595 on Sep 10, 2005 8:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many white women are there in the United States to black people? Have you ever been to a goverment housing project? I guess not and trust me you wouldent want to. The white people who worked so hard to make this country what it is are getting the shaft. why should a company have to hire so many minorties to stay open? I think the person who has the best skills should get the job. Why do schools in all black neighborhoods (really bad) be able to bus there students to good white neighborhoods just because of their race. I mean lets be fair here. You should go to the schools that is in the district that you live. They are the ones complaining I mean if it is so bad then why not live seperate but equal. I don't mind living with anyone but I guess you don't have housing projects in your neghborhood. The property value in our neghborhood has dropped almost half, since building 10 of them projects in the area. Why should we have to suffer. Let me tell you I have never ever seen one white women come out of there. Chicago had to seperate all the projects into diffrent neghborhoods because it got so bad they could not even send cops in there to protect the innocent people. I don't make the rules but I can tell you that 10 years ago my neighborhood was nice, now i wouldn't send my dog outside without a knife and a bulletproof vest. You said you wouldn't live with the likes of me. Try living with the likes of them (Not all of them) Mainly just the young people. I don't want a all white nation I just feel as if we don't do something about the crime that seems to follow most young blacks around i feel very sorry for the people who have to live here after us. Go walk the streets in a al black neghborhood or better yet drop your child off in one of the parks. Then you pick the side you would rather be on.

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» RE: reply Posted by: Winston
THE RACKET OF RACISM
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Posted by: DivabyLaw on Sep 11, 2005 8:29 AM   
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The Racket of Racism

Groupthink.
Anyone with eyes can see.
Everyone sees the signs; but,
will not speak; though speech is free.
Groupthink.
Anyone with ears can hear.
Everyone hears the familiar noise; but,
no one runs toward the noise
to see what action should be taken.
Groupthink.
Anyone with a sound mind understands.
True God-fearing men
honor I John 3:15.
Groupthink.
Watching the game.
Listening to words
volley back and forth
knowing the racket of racism.

Bonnie Belle Simmons

http://hometown.aol.com/neibr/myhomepage/profile.html
***************************************************
One ploy white racists use when engaged in dialogue about racism is to declare Blacks are paranoid whenever they identify racism in circumstances where it is blatant.

DivabyLaw
***************************************************

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Take the rag away from your face
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Posted by: anarcissie on Sep 13, 2005 7:25 AM   
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It seems to me this article is fairly racialist, if not
racist, itself. "White" is a construction, and the person
who constructs it is responsible for it. Out in the big world,
beyond the view of this article, there are all kinds of people
who might be called "white" -- or not-- and a great many of
them, unlike Robert Jensen, may have little or no idea of
whiteness as a category of entitlement and privilege, and thus
behave accordingly: they live next to, do business with, make
friends with, marry, persons who might be called non-white.
Clearly, the best way to break down whiteness, and any
system of privilege that is attached to it, is to encourage that
sort of thinking and behavior, not a whiney, breast-beating
"I am the problem" attitude. I cannot imagine why any
self-respecting person of any category, oppressed or not,
would want to be approached in that way.

In any case, the proposition that "white" people must all do
this or that is a political non-starter. It is not going to happen
because the set of people is too diverse, as those who think
non-racially understand from the beginning. In particular,
although getting up and taking a bath in warm guilt every
morning is a mark of considerable privilege, most
people are not going to go for it.

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Winston
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Posted by: Winston on Sep 14, 2005 10:59 PM   
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I think we already have too many white people who think like Robert Jensen does. He sounds like he would not be a good role model to children, especiall a son. Would Robert tell his son that when he is around blacks at school, for instance, to feel guilty for being white although he has no idea why he should? Fathers like that are the reason so many young white boys want to act like blacks. It's really quite funny in a sad way. Why the white kids who try to buy everything just right to be accepted by the blacks at school? They don't realize that when all the whites are gone, they make fun of them for the way they dress or try to use hand gestures or talk trash, whatever. White people ARE the most ignorant of all the races. This is true beyond a doubt. We live in a country where hip-hop music incorporates every curse word known and uses the word "niggah" in videos and CD's. Comedy clubs all across the land have black performers using that word. When white people discuss this on TV or radio, they must say "the N-word" in place of what's on the CD or video made by black performers. See how backward white people are?
I grew up in Detroit during the 60's. It's the best city I've ever been to. During my four years in the Marine Corps, I went to quite a few large cities, but none were as cool as Detroit was back in mid 60's. Like now, there were fights over "turf", but we fought with hands, not Glocks. And most of the neighborhood groups(we didn't call ourselves gangs) had mixtures of several races on them.
Robert Jensens attitude seems to me to be of a man in a great depression and is feeling all wrongs are his fault. I disagree with almost all he writes, but I won't say anything bad about him because I think he needs help. Sorry, Robert.

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Moron
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Posted by: itruelyhate on Sep 17, 2005 12:54 AM   
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What a jackass the jensen is. Being a white AMerican I must be seeing things when A black person drives by in a mercedes. Of course there are racial provlems. Why doesn't this moronic author talk about the fact that Mexicans belittle blacks? Or why do the chinses hate the japs. Tell me why muslims hate jews. Or why muslims hate hindus. Moron thats why

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Ethics, Economics, Ethnicity
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Posted by: DivabyLaw on Sep 18, 2005 1:49 PM   
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How government leaders use sound judgment when deciding on who gets federal money is not only governed by income. If we apply the fact that our leaders are a sample batch of who they represent; then, leaders who have little regard for non-whites will reflect such thinking in policies originally intended to help the poor.

Solutions to governmental problems is not as simple as one's socio-economic status; or the HAVES against the HAVE NOTS. If leaders cannot adapt their policy writing skills to meet cultural changes, there will be chaos in society until the leaders obey the laws modified first by changes in the culture.

Leaders who insist on forcing the present culture to adapt to outdated policy, will bring chaos into the lives of society at large. When it comes to the budget, leaders are more apt to cut much-needed programs before they will take a cut in salary.

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You Are Exactly Who Jensen Is Speaking To
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Posted by: MarcGarvey on Oct 3, 2005 10:06 AM   
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You seem to want to pretend that 'color' is of no importance. And, for you, it isn't. When I say that, I mean that color doesn't affect you adversely on a daily or hourly basis, so it's like why bother bringing that up all the time.

You have the luxury of labeling the entire discussion as just being politically correct.

You don't see this as a luxury. For you, this is simple reality, it's just liberals being PC. But ask an African-American in the corporate world about racism. Ask him if it's just political correctness. Ask yourself why out of all the Hollywood execs capable of greenlighting a film, not one, not a single one, is black. If racism and terms and this kind of discussion is just political correctness, what accounts for these realities, albeit different from your own, but realities for millions nonetheless? Is everyone 'black', who detects racism, crazy? This notion of political correctness leads somewhere. It leads to the ever more popular idea that racism isn't real. Black folks have the right to vote now. It's over. Done. We're beyond that. Further discussion is just political correctness in an age of multicultural gobbledygoop.

I disagree with that notion. And I commend Jensen for doing his work. After reading Citizens of the Empire, I wondered if he would continue, go further and embark upon the journey most Chomskyesque intellectuals demur, crossing the color line. The overall critique of American Empire and American power I can agree with, but it only makes sense, the political maintenance of such a uniquely American system with such little social tendencies, only makes sense when analyzed through the fractured lens of race in America.

Many of the same European Americans identifying themselves as white, that loved Jensen last year with Citizens of the Empire, now have their chance to flog him for just being politically correct. It seems so funny how the reality of American social politics is revealed generally by how upset and intolerant of an idea people are. America is so upside culturally, intellectually, socially, the more honest an idea, the closer one edges toward truth, the more people get pissed off and angry.

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Old Fans New Critics
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Posted by: MarcGarvey on Oct 3, 2005 10:09 AM   
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When liberals talk about the reality of American dominance, about American empire, the American right, the Republicans and the Libertarians, they blow their tops.

When a liberal expounds upon what started as a critique of the American global dominance and looks domestically at the heart of that system, at race, he/she is scorned by the American Right and by the 'white' American left, the liberals.

What we are seeing here is nothing new. Hopefully Jensen knew this before writing his book and isn't overwhelmed by the angry response from many past supporters and the band that have scorned his conception of justice all along.

When it comes to the question, the issue, the constructed notion of race, those considering themselves 'white' really are the problem. And because most people of color in the United States consider themselves liberal, the group posing the most serious problem, the group most obviously preventing social change around this issue, is the 'white' liberal.

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hmmm
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Posted by: RJJ on Oct 4, 2005 6:34 PM   
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Why do most other countries think of white anglo when they think of an american?

America was founded by whites. It's presidents and figure heads have all been, you guessed it, white.

Since whites have been in control, they used slaves from africa, and laborers from latin american and asia to do the dirty work. This is an obvious stain on the country, since it was the majority (white) taking advantage of the minority.

Nowadays, the minority has it's rights that were once exclusively white.

This article should be renamed, The white man's guilt. Since, even though whites retain the majority, they are nailed to the cross for anything construed as prejudice or racist.

What did white people want to do with blacks, asians, etc? I'm not sure. I know lincoln had a plan to excommunicate africans back to africa. (but never was able to finalize this) and after the outbreak of world war 2, anything pro-white was automatically nazism or facism.

Anyway, very interesting article. But a little biased and innacurate.

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» RE: hmmm Posted by: MarcGarvey
» RE: hmmm Posted by: DivabyLaw
Blacks Receive Hiring Preference
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Posted by: DDDqwerty on May 2, 2006 9:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
--Blacks receive hiring preference in the government and private sector. Because of their race.
--Whites pay the majority of blacks' health care costs, education ,etc.
--Black-on-white crime is far more prevelent than white-on-black crime, but in the latter, whites must own up to their "racism."
--I could go on ad nauseum.

I beleive in always treating people as people first. But I must also commend a former poster who pointed out that a lot of so-called racism is based on culture. The fact is, in mixed communities or work places, whites are frequently threatened, scorned, etc. because of their race. At what point do whites--who have not personally enslaved or tried to "extreminate" non-whites (as one poster put it) move on and realize they're just dealing with a bunch of opportunistic guilt-trippers?
I'll just add that I have nothing against people of African or any other descent. I'd rather be friends with a good black person than a white jerk

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