COMMENTS: 69
Behind Sweden's Gender Lines
Sign up to stay up to date on the latest headlines via email.
The slogan has become a symbol of a heated debate in this country over why full gender equality has not been achieved despite decades of legislation promoting it.
"There is an anger," says Hanne Kjoller, a columnist for the newspaper Dagens Nyheter. "The things we have achieved, we achieved them years ago."
The "'men are animals' controversy," as its known here, exploded onto the front pages of newspapers in May, after Ireen von Wachenfeldt, a government official who is one of Sweden's best-known feminists, was featured in the Swedish Television documentary, "The Gender War."
At the time, von Wachenfeldt was head of ROKS, the national network of shelters for abused women, which is a government institution. A reporter on the program noted that the organization had printed excerpts of the "SCUM Manifesto."
The "SCUM Manifesto" was published in 1983 by Valerie Solanas, a radical U.S. feminist previously known for attempting to assassinate Andy Warhol in 1968. In the book's title, SCUM stands for the Society for Cutting Up Men. Within its covers, Solanas calls on women to "destroy the male sex," arguing that medical science made it possible to give birth only to females and without the aid of males.
The Swedish TV reporter, Evin Rubar, asked von Wachenfeldt about the statement from the manifesto: "To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."
"Is that your standpoint?" Rubar asked. "Yes, it's my standpoint," the director said. "That man is an animal?" the reporter said. "Man is an animal," von Wachenfeldt said. "Don't you think so?"
The documentary sparked fierce reactions across the country. Some women's shelters have left the national network in protest, and von Wachenfeldt resigned in the midst of the controversy. But her remarks opened a national discussion on the topic of women's equality.
A Model of Equality
The assertion that "Man is an animal" might seem out of place in Sweden--a country that has been a model of sexual equality--where society sees it as an integral part of the egalitarian ethic of its welfare state.
After the women's liberation movement took off in the 1970s, the Swedish government passed laws mandating equality in every aspect of public life and even some aspects of private live. The government prohibited violence against women, required salary parity for men and women in similar jobs and gave men and women the right to equal parental leave. In the 1990s, Sweden's government became the first in the world where half the ministers were women. Earlier this year, Sweden was ranked the most gender-equal country by the World Economic Forum.
But being first in the rankings is not enough, say feminists. Women still earn on average only 71 percent of what men earn, and some studies--though these are disputed in feminist circles--suggest that domestic violence is a larger problem than widely believed.
"There has been a strong women's movement here that has achieved a lot," said Lotten Sunna, Stockholm-based spokesperson for Feminist Initiative, a new empowerment movement that is focused on putting feminism even higher on the political agenda. "But that has also led to a false belief that we have reached equality, that we are there, and as a result of that things are starting to back up again."
Women Not Prioritized
Sunna argues that the current Swedish political establishment does not prioritize women's issues. That's the case, she says, even though Prime Minister Goran Persson has labeled himself a feminist, 45 percent of Swedish parliament members are women and most national political parties have made feminism part of their political platforms.
"It's the politically correct thing to say, that I'm a feminist," Sunna said.
In its gender-gap ranking, the World Economic Forum praised Sweden's liberal society and welfare provisions. It said that because of them, Swedish women "have access to a wider spectrum of educational, political and work opportunities and enjoy a higher standard of living than women in other parts of the world."
Nevertheless, Feminist Initiative's platform describes Sweden as a country that is dominated by a "patriarchical power structure." It says women are discriminated against, subjected to violence, exploited in the labor market, under-prioritized in health care and receive a smaller proportion of welfare benefits.
"We grew up believing that we would actually be equal to men," said Sunna, who was a teen in the 1970s. "Swedish women get very angry when you discover that that is not the case."
In a recent survey directed by Eva Lundgren, a sociologist at Uppsala University in Sweden, 46 percent of women say they've been victims of some form of gender violence in their lifetimes. Lundgren's methodology has been criticized, however, for having too broad a definition of gender violence. Government data puts the number at around 12 percent.
Still, Sweden's leaders have long made efforts to achieve equality, at least on paper. Back in 1974, the government officially renamed "maternity leave" as "parental leave," and gave both parents the "right" to share in a government benefit that now guarantees 13 months of paid leave. Since 1975, abortion has been legal, and quotas striving for equal representation in local and national government and public institutions have been around since the 1980s.
Men Have Changed
What can hardly be disputed is that Swedish men have changed. Men now take on average 17 percent of the government-guaranteed parental leave, according to the national statistics bureau. In 1974, men took zero percent. Nowadays, it's not at all unusual to see men pushing baby strollers along the sidewalks and playing with their children in the playground during working hours.
Stephan Mendel-Enk is author of a book on masculinity, With an Obvious Sense of Style, that has been praised by feminists. He says Swedish men take parental leave because the government has made it economically feasible. Societal prejudices remain, he says.
Still, the question remains why full equality remains so hard to achieve in a country like Sweden, particularly in the workplace. Rebecka Edgren, who writes for Stockholm-based Mama Magazine, says most Swedish feminists--like their counterparts in other countries--have long put the burden of empowerment on women themselves. But several years ago, things changed. "When the feminists started to look at men instead of women . . . a lot of men got upset," she said.
Edgren says many men feel particularly threatened because the demands now being made by feminists, such as requiring parents to take equal amounts of parental leave, will force them to make even more drastic changes to their lifestyle and career.
Comments out of Context
After the "Gender War" documentary, von Wachenfeldt denied the assertion in the show that the government agencies dealing with women's issues are dominated by radical feminists, and accused Rubar of taking her comments out of context. But other feminists questioned her and the domestic violence numbers put forward by Lundgren, who was also interviewed in the program.
Hanne Kjoller wrote in one of her columns that "the group of feminists that Lundgren belongs to have an ideological and economic interest in portraying abuse of women as normal male behavior."
Author Mendel-Enk says the result of the documentary was to reinforce notions that Swedish government agencies dealing with women's and equality issues are led by people with extremist ideas. "Many men had this idea all the time, but now they got some supposed proof for it," he said.
One man who didn't feel that way is Michael Ericsson, who on a recent Sunday was biking along the Gota canal in rural Sweden with his teen-age son. When asked about the "men are animals" controversy, he said it doesn't affect his happiness with the "50-50" arrangement he and his wife have regarding cooking, cleaning, and taking care of the kids.
"It's not my problem," he said, then mounted his bike and continued on the 30-mile trip that he and his son take every weekend.
Stay up to date with the latest AlterNet headlines via email
Comments are closed-
Posted by: davy on Aug 30, 2005 12:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or as they say in the jargon of our times, "maybe she is not making informed choices."
Or can you imagine if a male goverment official said that about women?
Sheeeesh
Davy Jones Scotland
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Samantha Vimes on Aug 30, 2005 1:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: toblo on Aug 30, 2005 3:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-If men in sweden lose their sympathetic view on feminism; if the feminists cry wolf a few times to often, and alienate the men by constant insults.. what will happen then? Feminism and female equality in sweden will take a great step backwards, thats what.
It Is upsetting to get blamed for everything any other man does (which will happen to a man pretty soon if he chances to speak to a regular swedish feminist); it also seems extremely sexist to me. But I guess this is the way of things - regarding such an inherently emotional subject, the most extreme and irresponsible people have an advantage in climbing to the top and getting their message of hate out; and accepted as the norm.
(Thank you for an interesting on-line magazine, BTW!)
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» You've Just Proved the Feminist's Point
Posted by: birdman
» RE: You've Just Proved the Feminist's Point
Posted by: toblo
» an inherently emotional subject
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: michele0726 on Aug 30, 2005 6:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bettsoff on Aug 30, 2005 6:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: whatever on Aug 30, 2005 7:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last sentence of the article. Says it all. Issues of equality for women hurt men in an uncountable number of ways, but yet, though they are by vast numbers the predators, and females of all ages the victims...it's not his problem.
Until he (they all) realize it's just as much their problem...their male culture...nothing will change. Women are the victims, and so, we can hardly be blamed for the actions of so many men. We can hardly do much of anything, but be born into this culture. This culture. Any culture? Are there any that don't have this problem?
Pervasive
IF the victimization cannot be stopped in a civilized society...it is not civilized.
And women should abandon it.
We need a place to go, to be healthy and safe. Where cooperation and civility are realities, and not all face time, lip-service, fair-weather-friends who think it's "not their fault" and so it's "not their problem"
It's not your problem. But it is ours.
And in that, all your faces look the same...when you stand together...as a group believing our concerns to be "silly", the numbers we quote untrue, the stories, no matter how horrible, to be "isolated"...wishing we'd just all shut up.
Some of you enjoy making us shutup. Too many of you. YOU. Not us.
Not OUR problem.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: whatever4
Posted by: RudiTuzla
» that woman tend to go for the "passive aggressive" approach while men generally are overtly
Posted by: Olympiada
» Issues of equality for women hurt men in an uncountable number of ways
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: whatever4
Posted by: toblo
» I'm sick of radical feminism
Posted by: chomsky
Comments are closed-
Posted by: melissa999 on Aug 30, 2005 8:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Basically, it's like saying, child abuse is common. Therefore, parents are animals.
It seems that violence against women is a horrible consequence of living in a patriarchy. More drastic measures need to be taken against perpetrators, and there needs be a better understanding of why violence occurs, so that we can prevent it.
Some men have changed and we need to credit them, so that others will want to do the same. Calling people names is really pointless.
I'd like to see more creative ways of dealing with this, like having victims name their abusers publicly with signs and pictures, much like Megan's Law, where known offenders are labeled and pointed out. One of the problems is that women are usually acquaintances or family of the offenders, so naming them is actually more stressful for the women than simply letting it go.
This is a sad effort.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Some men have changed and we need to credit them
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: InvisiblePimpernil on Aug 30, 2005 8:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: It's another version of the blame game
Posted by: dkm
» divorced women
Posted by: Olympiada
» failure to accept personal responsibility is sociopathic behavior
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: failure to accept personal responsibility is sociopathic behavior
Posted by: InvisiblePimpernil
» RE: failure to accept personal responsibility is sociopathic behavior
Posted by: decembrist
» RE: failure to accept personal responsibility is sociopathic behavior
Posted by: Basenjis
» Most relationship conflicts
Posted by: Olympiada
» Realistic Acceptance of Responsibility
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: ealistic Acceptance of Responsibility
Posted by: Frumkinlovesmoney
» frumkinlovesmoney
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CrystalD on Aug 30, 2005 9:11 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, we are all animals, men and women alike. And so what? That doesn't excuse violence. As Scott Peck put it, "Human nature is to go to the bathroom in our pants." And somehow we learn to use the toilet, and no-one - not even Richard Dawkins - would suggest that we just drop our pants and take a dump wherever. We do all sorts of things that are "not natural" - we cook our food, wear clothes, and live in air-conditioned houses. So any "it's natural/we're animals" excuse for violence won't wash.
The notion that men are somehow naturally violent "Demonic Males", espoused by a strange alliance of radical feminists and right-wingers, is noxious. I, a feminist, expect more of men than that. I EXPECT men to be kind and caring. I EXPECT men to not use violence in their relationships. I think it is the worst form of male bashing AND anti-feminism to not hold men to the same standards we hold women. After all, men and women are both from Earth.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: We're ALL animals, but that's no excuse
Posted by: JoeEbola
» Regardless of what you expect...
Posted by: decembrist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lutragrrl on Aug 30, 2005 9:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This points up some insufficient offering of context in this article. How did Sweden's "best known feminist" mean her remark? This is not clarified though she is quoted as saying it was taken out of context. What is it that she was actually saying - that people are animals? It is hard to say from this presentation what she intended to communicate by her remark. That's not good journalism.
Similarly, I am unclear on just how the controversial statistic concerning gender violence was arrived at. While clearly some in Sweden also question the method of reportage, we don't know why. Was the number a matter of "mere" self reportage by women, rather than a number derived say from police files? Unfortunately, as this is reported by this journalist, we simply can not know.
More careful journalism would have helped to shape this debate in a more constructive manner. Personally, I find 71% of pay to be an inadequate measure of equal pay, and yet this is the best example of parity on the planet. Obviously it's going to take more effort of some sort, as well as more time, to make these social changes.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: what's wrong with being an animal?
Posted by: Michaelmammal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: brs04wsc on Aug 30, 2005 10:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I wonder if this...
Posted by: pomes
» Thanks for proving her point
Posted by: Kat144
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 30, 2005 10:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One reason I am weary of hearing the same old complaints (yes, I agree, some things have not changed or changed very much) is that I can learn more from the success stories. When a married father can say, "It's not my problem," I understand that to mean, "My family is working it out to our satisfaction." If it's good enough for them, what right does anyone else have to disdain that?
Isn't it always a question of priorities? Everything and everyone cannot be changed immediately. And were it not for the fact that we are hearing voices of appreciation for some of the changes, I could believe that it's just a matter that some people can never be pleased. (If you have not met such, I can introduce you to some.)
My priority is child abuse, whether gender specific or not. How our children are treated decides what tomorrow can be like. I believe sexual abuse of minors causes far more damage than the fact that women do not earn salaries that are identical to men.
I am bothered that so little awareness is evident of the distinction between equality and identity. Men and women are equal but not identical. Where does one put such facts as that it is far easier for a woman to find a new man to share financial responsibilities than vice versa?
The Third World rebukes us First Worlders with, in the words of Bob Marley, "Can't tell the woman from the man." Unfortunately that can sometimes seem to be the goal of feminism. If so, it does more harm than good.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: "Can't tell the woman from the man"?
Posted by: Basenjis
» sexual abuse of minors
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dkm on Aug 30, 2005 11:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An earlier post made the obvious observation that of course men are animals. There are only five choices: bacteria (two groups), protists, fungi, animalia and plantae. I suspect that most women consider themselves to be animals as well.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» where the wife is bigger than the husband
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: where the wife is bigger than the husband
Posted by: Kat144
» I make no sense? Oh really.
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: I make no sense? Oh really.
Posted by: Kat144
» then don't tell me that my relationship will never work unless I play dumb to my partner, pardon me?
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Violence against women
Posted by: specom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Olympiada on Aug 30, 2005 11:43 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ok domestic violence. Did you know that violence can be psychological as well as physical? I would like to see psychological violence talked about more often.
Now, I think, that the problems between men and women stem from childhood, from the family of origin. I think perhaps it would be a better use of time and energy to look at families as a whole instead of men and women. I think it would be good at how parenting and role modeling goes back generations and what this means. I think we have to dig deeper.
I also think that egalatarianism is a good model. Patriarchy, well I do not have much to say on this. I know nothing of patriarchy personally. The cultures I come from are matriarchal. So 'patriarchs' have never liked me because they can not dominate me and that is fine. I give them their respect and stay out of their way. Now matriarchy, it is not such a good thing either. Why? It emasculates men. Why? It takes a man to show a boy how to be a man, not a woman. Personally I am more for traditional cultures where the men and the women have their defined roles and everything works together in harmony. Have you ever been to a rez or a pow wow? The Natives, at least in the Pacific Northwest know how to live. Now maybe at one point Western Civilization had it's act together, but when was that, I do not know.
Now in terms of Sweden. Well, I had always thought "if only I lived in Sweden, things would be better." I do not think so. They sound just as clueless as America!
Now that will get me flamed, I am sure. Oh well. I can stand it. Go ahead.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: domestic violence
Posted by: InvisiblePimpernil
» RE: domestic violence
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cry0fan on Aug 30, 2005 2:11 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is good for the Elite and bad for the rest of us.
Way to go, fauxLeft.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: myopicgaze on Aug 30, 2005 2:47 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the 15th century, an Italian woman by the name of Christine de Pizan was recognized by her scholarly contemporaries as one of the great intellectuals of her time. But in the 19th century, John Stuart Mill's lifetime companion and collaborator--Harriet Taylor--couldn't get a by-line for their seminal work "On Liberty", even though Mill himself claimed the work was as much hers as his. Even today, no publisher has put her as co-author--in my opinion, she deserves this honor.
In the 18th century, over one-third of European astronomers were women (amateurs yes, but there was as yet no organized profession of astronomers), today that number is down to about 5%. A little over a century ago, when the doors to universities were finally open to women again--to prove that they were up to the rigors of academic life, young female scholars ate heartily, writing letters home to boast of the weight they had gained. Today, though women have attained (ostensibly) equity in education, politics and employment opportunity, many have developed such social anxiety over body image and being overweight that eating disorders are epidemic and the emaciated "super-model" has become the cultural standard of female beauty.
Man-haters are not feminists--they are rather an unfortunate reaction to a sexist culture. The disappointments many women must feel--after all these years of "radical feminists" storming and raging to change things and yet they still witness themselves and their sisters being put down, held back, misunderstood, impoverished and brutalized simply because they have one more "X" chromosome than their brothers makes such outrageous remarks ("men are animals") understandable, if not excusable.
Gender liberation and equity--the true goal of feminism--can only be accomplished by men and women working together--against the men and women who oppose them.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Aquinas
Posted by: Olympiada
» Amendment
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: decembrist on Aug 30, 2005 5:59 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before Lesbian couples even have recognition, people are talking about their "secret violence". Give me a break. Maybe they're just frustrated because they have no legitimacy in society's eyes. nuff said.
Our society (patriarchal) may make it possible for men to be more violent (like historically only allowing men to fight in combat) but I don't think so.
It's just a fact that men have a greater tendency towards violence. And a social and evolutionary perspective on this does shed quite a bit of light. Get over the title and read "Demonic Males" by Wrangham and Peterson... don't be squeamish, you're not required to feel man-guilt, or not-my-man anger, just read it with a sense of curiosity.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Men Have a Monopoly on Violence
Posted by: Basenjis
» Child Abuse
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Child Abuse
Posted by: decembrist
» point
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: point
Posted by: decembrist
» RE: point
Posted by: decembrist
» I love my mother too
Posted by: Olympiada
» Violence and anger... where does it come from and where can we send it?
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 30, 2005 8:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my limited experience (not severely limited), women tend to be more verbally aggressive than men. Can one be verbally 'violent'? We may disagree. A verbal bully is still a bully.
The critical question is the linkage between aggression and violence, and anyone who has been a parent of small children knows it can be a fine line. My eldest daughter and her 4-year younger brother were aggressive enough with each other while young to make some of my adult friends uncomfortable. To say the least, when the boy became a teen-ager and physically bigger, the scene changed.
Did bullying ever appear? Maybe. And that was the point at which such behavior was no longer tolerated. I have yet to be convinced that bullying behavior is gender determined.
One of the benefits of greater equality of opportunity is to see that females don't have any better new answers. Just examine the votes of women in Congress (and don't tell me it's the men that make them do it; women are as ambitious as men).
BTW, men frequently have gone off to war with the encouragement of women. Who the hell else are they fighting for?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» aggression and violence
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kat144 on Sep 1, 2005 3:20 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've seen enough women raped and beaten by men who think that because they're stronger, they're dominant--sounds like something animals would do. Enough men who impregnate woman after woman only to run off, never to be heard from again....then insist "hey, it's biology to want to have sex with lots of women!"--that's acting like an animal AND BEGGING to be treated like one. Enough men who DO think their grossest bodily functions ought to be shared--the dog maybe can't help his farts or know enough to say "excuse me"--when men act the same, sure sounds like animal behavior. But even a dog doesn't giggle uncontrollably over it.
This to me says that yes, a lot of men are no better than animals or their Neanderthal ancestors.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» OG?
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: OG?
Posted by: Kat144
» the race assumption
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: To an extent, it's true
Posted by: Logic's Edge
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 25, 2005 6:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As this has happened, men have listened and tried to make changes to accomodate women and their wants. Yet there is little or no appreciation to be found. Not for men's music, men's art, men's science, men's medicine nor all the modern conveniences that women enjoy. They wake up in homes men built, dry their hair with electricity men discovered and developed, drive to work in cars men designed, fill up with fuel men extracted, and then talk on the phones that men created to complain to each other how horrible we are.
It should be acknowledged that women are now overtly partaking in the construction of society and contributing toward the advance of knowledge. But, and this cannot be denied by anyone who exerts their power of reason, we arrived at this point because of the efforts of men. We did.
Hardly the sort of behaviour you might expect from the monsters we're being painted as, isn't it?
If rape and violence were our sole raison d'etre, it's obvious the caves served us more than well enough. We never needed to leave them if that's what we wanted.
Instead of being celebrated for their efforts and achievements, men are being castigated relentlessly with stereotypes and inflated statistics. Yes, inflated statistics. Look into this for yourself if you don't believe me.
"Men are animals" is a statement full of hate. It blames all men for the actions of a small proportion. It ignores all the good they have done and are doing. It implicity asserts that women are superior, when in truth they are just somewhat different in their wants and needs.
I invite women who like to assure each other how pitiful their husbands and boyfriends are to ask themselves, how is it that I have the luxury to complain?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: davy on Aug 30, 2005 12:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or as they say in the jargon of our times, "maybe she is not making informed choices."
Or can you imagine if a male goverment official said that about women?
Sheeeesh
Davy Jones Scotland
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Samantha Vimes on Aug 30, 2005 1:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: toblo on Aug 30, 2005 3:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-If men in sweden lose their sympathetic view on feminism; if the feminists cry wolf a few times to often, and alienate the men by constant insults.. what will happen then? Feminism and female equality in sweden will take a great step backwards, thats what.
It Is upsetting to get blamed for everything any other man does (which will happen to a man pretty soon if he chances to speak to a regular swedish feminist); it also seems extremely sexist to me. But I guess this is the way of things - regarding such an inherently emotional subject, the most extreme and irresponsible people have an advantage in climbing to the top and getting their message of hate out; and accepted as the norm.
(Thank you for an interesting on-line magazine, BTW!)
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» You've Just Proved the Feminist's Point
Posted by: birdman
» RE: You've Just Proved the Feminist's Point
Posted by: toblo
» an inherently emotional subject
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: michele0726 on Aug 30, 2005 6:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bettsoff on Aug 30, 2005 6:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: whatever on Aug 30, 2005 7:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last sentence of the article. Says it all. Issues of equality for women hurt men in an uncountable number of ways, but yet, though they are by vast numbers the predators, and females of all ages the victims...it's not his problem.
Until he (they all) realize it's just as much their problem...their male culture...nothing will change. Women are the victims, and so, we can hardly be blamed for the actions of so many men. We can hardly do much of anything, but be born into this culture. This culture. Any culture? Are there any that don't have this problem?
Pervasive
IF the victimization cannot be stopped in a civilized society...it is not civilized.
And women should abandon it.
We need a place to go, to be healthy and safe. Where cooperation and civility are realities, and not all face time, lip-service, fair-weather-friends who think it's "not their fault" and so it's "not their problem"
It's not your problem. But it is ours.
And in that, all your faces look the same...when you stand together...as a group believing our concerns to be "silly", the numbers we quote untrue, the stories, no matter how horrible, to be "isolated"...wishing we'd just all shut up.
Some of you enjoy making us shutup. Too many of you. YOU. Not us.
Not OUR problem.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: whatever4
Posted by: RudiTuzla
» that woman tend to go for the "passive aggressive" approach while men generally are overtly
Posted by: Olympiada
» Issues of equality for women hurt men in an uncountable number of ways
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: whatever4
Posted by: toblo
» I'm sick of radical feminism
Posted by: chomsky
Comments are closed-
Posted by: melissa999 on Aug 30, 2005 8:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Basically, it's like saying, child abuse is common. Therefore, parents are animals.
It seems that violence against women is a horrible consequence of living in a patriarchy. More drastic measures need to be taken against perpetrators, and there needs be a better understanding of why violence occurs, so that we can prevent it.
Some men have changed and we need to credit them, so that others will want to do the same. Calling people names is really pointless.
I'd like to see more creative ways of dealing with this, like having victims name their abusers publicly with signs and pictures, much like Megan's Law, where known offenders are labeled and pointed out. One of the problems is that women are usually acquaintances or family of the offenders, so naming them is actually more stressful for the women than simply letting it go.
This is a sad effort.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Some men have changed and we need to credit them
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: InvisiblePimpernil on Aug 30, 2005 8:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: It's another version of the blame game
Posted by: dkm
» divorced women
Posted by: Olympiada
» failure to accept personal responsibility is sociopathic behavior
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: failure to accept personal responsibility is sociopathic behavior
Posted by: InvisiblePimpernil
» RE: failure to accept personal responsibility is sociopathic behavior
Posted by: decembrist
» RE: failure to accept personal responsibility is sociopathic behavior
Posted by: Basenjis
» Most relationship conflicts
Posted by: Olympiada
» Realistic Acceptance of Responsibility
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: ealistic Acceptance of Responsibility
Posted by: Frumkinlovesmoney
» frumkinlovesmoney
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CrystalD on Aug 30, 2005 9:11 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, we are all animals, men and women alike. And so what? That doesn't excuse violence. As Scott Peck put it, "Human nature is to go to the bathroom in our pants." And somehow we learn to use the toilet, and no-one - not even Richard Dawkins - would suggest that we just drop our pants and take a dump wherever. We do all sorts of things that are "not natural" - we cook our food, wear clothes, and live in air-conditioned houses. So any "it's natural/we're animals" excuse for violence won't wash.
The notion that men are somehow naturally violent "Demonic Males", espoused by a strange alliance of radical feminists and right-wingers, is noxious. I, a feminist, expect more of men than that. I EXPECT men to be kind and caring. I EXPECT men to not use violence in their relationships. I think it is the worst form of male bashing AND anti-feminism to not hold men to the same standards we hold women. After all, men and women are both from Earth.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: We're ALL animals, but that's no excuse
Posted by: JoeEbola
» Regardless of what you expect...
Posted by: decembrist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lutragrrl on Aug 30, 2005 9:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This points up some insufficient offering of context in this article. How did Sweden's "best known feminist" mean her remark? This is not clarified though she is quoted as saying it was taken out of context. What is it that she was actually saying - that people are animals? It is hard to say from this presentation what she intended to communicate by her remark. That's not good journalism.
Similarly, I am unclear on just how the controversial statistic concerning gender violence was arrived at. While clearly some in Sweden also question the method of reportage, we don't know why. Was the number a matter of "mere" self reportage by women, rather than a number derived say from police files? Unfortunately, as this is reported by this journalist, we simply can not know.
More careful journalism would have helped to shape this debate in a more constructive manner. Personally, I find 71% of pay to be an inadequate measure of equal pay, and yet this is the best example of parity on the planet. Obviously it's going to take more effort of some sort, as well as more time, to make these social changes.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: what's wrong with being an animal?
Posted by: Michaelmammal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: brs04wsc on Aug 30, 2005 10:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I wonder if this...
Posted by: pomes
» Thanks for proving her point
Posted by: Kat144
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 30, 2005 10:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One reason I am weary of hearing the same old complaints (yes, I agree, some things have not changed or changed very much) is that I can learn more from the success stories. When a married father can say, "It's not my problem," I understand that to mean, "My family is working it out to our satisfaction." If it's good enough for them, what right does anyone else have to disdain that?
Isn't it always a question of priorities? Everything and everyone cannot be changed immediately. And were it not for the fact that we are hearing voices of appreciation for some of the changes, I could believe that it's just a matter that some people can never be pleased. (If you have not met such, I can introduce you to some.)
My priority is child abuse, whether gender specific or not. How our children are treated decides what tomorrow can be like. I believe sexual abuse of minors causes far more damage than the fact that women do not earn salaries that are identical to men.
I am bothered that so little awareness is evident of the distinction between equality and identity. Men and women are equal but not identical. Where does one put such facts as that it is far easier for a woman to find a new man to share financial responsibilities than vice versa?
The Third World rebukes us First Worlders with, in the words of Bob Marley, "Can't tell the woman from the man." Unfortunately that can sometimes seem to be the goal of feminism. If so, it does more harm than good.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: "Can't tell the woman from the man"?
Posted by: Basenjis
» sexual abuse of minors
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dkm on Aug 30, 2005 11:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An earlier post made the obvious observation that of course men are animals. There are only five choices: bacteria (two groups), protists, fungi, animalia and plantae. I suspect that most women consider themselves to be animals as well.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» where the wife is bigger than the husband
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: where the wife is bigger than the husband
Posted by: Kat144
» I make no sense? Oh really.
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: I make no sense? Oh really.
Posted by: Kat144
» then don't tell me that my relationship will never work unless I play dumb to my partner, pardon me?
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Violence against women
Posted by: specom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Olympiada on Aug 30, 2005 11:43 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ok domestic violence. Did you know that violence can be psychological as well as physical? I would like to see psychological violence talked about more often.
Now, I think, that the problems between men and women stem from childhood, from the family of origin. I think perhaps it would be a better use of time and energy to look at families as a whole instead of men and women. I think it would be good at how parenting and role modeling goes back generations and what this means. I think we have to dig deeper.
I also think that egalatarianism is a good model. Patriarchy, well I do not have much to say on this. I know nothing of patriarchy personally. The cultures I come from are matriarchal. So 'patriarchs' have never liked me because they can not dominate me and that is fine. I give them their respect and stay out of their way. Now matriarchy, it is not such a good thing either. Why? It emasculates men. Why? It takes a man to show a boy how to be a man, not a woman. Personally I am more for traditional cultures where the men and the women have their defined roles and everything works together in harmony. Have you ever been to a rez or a pow wow? The Natives, at least in the Pacific Northwest know how to live. Now maybe at one point Western Civilization had it's act together, but when was that, I do not know.
Now in terms of Sweden. Well, I had always thought "if only I lived in Sweden, things would be better." I do not think so. They sound just as clueless as America!
Now that will get me flamed, I am sure. Oh well. I can stand it. Go ahead.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: domestic violence
Posted by: InvisiblePimpernil
» RE: domestic violence
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cry0fan on Aug 30, 2005 2:11 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is good for the Elite and bad for the rest of us.
Way to go, fauxLeft.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: myopicgaze on Aug 30, 2005 2:47 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the 15th century, an Italian woman by the name of Christine de Pizan was recognized by her scholarly contemporaries as one of the great intellectuals of her time. But in the 19th century, John Stuart Mill's lifetime companion and collaborator--Harriet Taylor--couldn't get a by-line for their seminal work "On Liberty", even though Mill himself claimed the work was as much hers as his. Even today, no publisher has put her as co-author--in my opinion, she deserves this honor.
In the 18th century, over one-third of European astronomers were women (amateurs yes, but there was as yet no organized profession of astronomers), today that number is down to about 5%. A little over a century ago, when the doors to universities were finally open to women again--to prove that they were up to the rigors of academic life, young female scholars ate heartily, writing letters home to boast of the weight they had gained. Today, though women have attained (ostensibly) equity in education, politics and employment opportunity, many have developed such social anxiety over body image and being overweight that eating disorders are epidemic and the emaciated "super-model" has become the cultural standard of female beauty.
Man-haters are not feminists--they are rather an unfortunate reaction to a sexist culture. The disappointments many women must feel--after all these years of "radical feminists" storming and raging to change things and yet they still witness themselves and their sisters being put down, held back, misunderstood, impoverished and brutalized simply because they have one more "X" chromosome than their brothers makes such outrageous remarks ("men are animals") understandable, if not excusable.
Gender liberation and equity--the true goal of feminism--can only be accomplished by men and women working together--against the men and women who oppose them.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Aquinas
Posted by: Olympiada
» Amendment
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: decembrist on Aug 30, 2005 5:59 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before Lesbian couples even have recognition, people are talking about their "secret violence". Give me a break. Maybe they're just frustrated because they have no legitimacy in society's eyes. nuff said.
Our society (patriarchal) may make it possible for men to be more violent (like historically only allowing men to fight in combat) but I don't think so.
It's just a fact that men have a greater tendency towards violence. And a social and evolutionary perspective on this does shed quite a bit of light. Get over the title and read "Demonic Males" by Wrangham and Peterson... don't be squeamish, you're not required to feel man-guilt, or not-my-man anger, just read it with a sense of curiosity.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Men Have a Monopoly on Violence
Posted by: Basenjis
» Child Abuse
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: Child Abuse
Posted by: decembrist
» point
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: point
Posted by: decembrist
» RE: point
Posted by: decembrist
» I love my mother too
Posted by: Olympiada
» Violence and anger... where does it come from and where can we send it?
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 30, 2005 8:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my limited experience (not severely limited), women tend to be more verbally aggressive than men. Can one be verbally 'violent'? We may disagree. A verbal bully is still a bully.
The critical question is the linkage between aggression and violence, and anyone who has been a parent of small children knows it can be a fine line. My eldest daughter and her 4-year younger brother were aggressive enough with each other while young to make some of my adult friends uncomfortable. To say the least, when the boy became a teen-ager and physically bigger, the scene changed.
Did bullying ever appear? Maybe. And that was the point at which such behavior was no longer tolerated. I have yet to be convinced that bullying behavior is gender determined.
One of the benefits of greater equality of opportunity is to see that females don't have any better new answers. Just examine the votes of women in Congress (and don't tell me it's the men that make them do it; women are as ambitious as men).
BTW, men frequently have gone off to war with the encouragement of women. Who the hell else are they fighting for?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» aggression and violence
Posted by: Olympiada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kat144 on Sep 1, 2005 3:20 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've seen enough women raped and beaten by men who think that because they're stronger, they're dominant--sounds like something animals would do. Enough men who impregnate woman after woman only to run off, never to be heard from again....then insist "hey, it's biology to want to have sex with lots of women!"--that's acting like an animal AND BEGGING to be treated like one. Enough men who DO think their grossest bodily functions ought to be shared--the dog maybe can't help his farts or know enough to say "excuse me"--when men act the same, sure sounds like animal behavior. But even a dog doesn't giggle uncontrollably over it.
This to me says that yes, a lot of men are no better than animals or their Neanderthal ancestors.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» OG?
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: OG?
Posted by: Kat144
» the race assumption
Posted by: Olympiada
» RE: To an extent, it's true
Posted by: Logic's Edge
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 25, 2005 6:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As this has happened, men have listened and tried to make changes to accomodate women and their wants. Yet there is little or no appreciation to be found. Not for men's music, men's art, men's science, men's medicine nor all the modern conveniences that women enjoy. They wake up in homes men built, dry their hair with electricity men discovered and developed, drive to work in cars men designed, fill up with fuel men extracted, and then talk on the phones that men created to complain to each other how horrible we are.
It should be acknowledged that women are now overtly partaking in the construction of society and contributing toward the advance of knowledge. But, and this cannot be denied by anyone who exerts their power of reason, we arrived at this point because of the efforts of men. We did.
Hardly the sort of behaviour you might expect from the monsters we're being painted as, isn't it?
If rape and violence were our sole raison d'etre, it's obvious the caves served us more than well enough. We never needed to leave them if that's what we wanted.
Instead of being celebrated for their efforts and achievements, men are being castigated relentlessly with stereotypes and inflated statistics. Yes, inflated statistics. Look into this for yourself if you don't believe me.
"Men are animals" is a statement full of hate. It blames all men for the actions of a small proportion. It ignores all the good they have done and are doing. It implicity asserts that women are superior, when in truth they are just somewhat different in their wants and needs.
I invite women who like to assure each other how pitiful their husbands and boyfriends are to ask themselves, how is it that I have the luxury to complain?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Vancouver's Games Will Be the Gayest Olympics Ever
Trial Begins for Activist Who Fought to Protect Federal Lands from Drilling -- Join the Protest
Starbucks' Cop-Out to Gun Nuts: Customers Served Coffee While Strapped




